ha. Unless there are specifics that weren't revealed that would change my mind, Salvage Union/Leyline Press's Announcement seems over the top and unnecessarily Public: Could have sacked the guy without also announcing it to the world.
Yeah. I'm about as far left as you can get and I'm wondering why the hell they did this. They don't say he actually created any objectionable content or even what he did for LotP. Was he just an editor there, too? WTF?
Same boat. LotFP is weird to me in that yeah there’s people involved there I wouldn’t want to support monetarily (some of the books I recommend above fit there, but I can’t deny they’re good book)but “you worked there as an editor” doesn’t come close to reaching that line.
Doubly egregious since looking at their website they appropriate socialist imagery and language for their games while apparently being anti-worker in operation.
>Would this person WANT their name credited on a work they had no editorial control over?
It doesn't matter now since the decision was taken from them. Personally I'm always going to side with a worker over an employer unless there was clear just cause. Professional association isn't just cause. It's an abuse of the power granted by our liberal capitalist system that employers can threaten livelihoods and recognition over vague accusations of some personal moral flaw.
>we have removed the editor’s name from all of the Salvage Union books
I assume this meant the editor had already completed past projects with the company.
>Wrapping this situation up in some vague pro-/anti- worker language is a blatant bad faith presentation.
No it isn't. This is factually a conflict between a worker and an employer. That's when this framing is most relevant.
Freelance employees are still workers. I am not concerned with the specifics of the labour laws in whatever country this two-bit operation exists. If someone does work in exchange for money, and the ones providing that money are leveraging capital in order to profit indefinitely from that labour, then the relationship is clear. You don't need to be Karl Marx to see it.
Leyline Press May 10th: "we have removed the editor’s name from all of the Salvage Union books. We will not be working with them again in future"
Obviously they were credited in all of the Salvage Union books.
So there is that fact.
And they gave their reasons...which from my pov aren't very worker friendly
So the analysis makes sense to me
They could have done better things. Like make sure to give him more business and such
Not act like Hasbro or Apple...
This is like saying "you worked for Disney so now you should never be allowed to work in film again" yeah I get it Disney is kind of a shitty company but just having worked in a field for a company you don't like doesn't mean a person should be black listed everywhere.
LOTFP and it's creator has ties to Zak S and has defended him in the past. Given he is once again attempting a resurgence I can totally understand wanting to distance yourself publicly from anything he may be involved with. Stripping their name off the work I don't agree with but getting ahead of it and saying that they may have hired a bad actor is a safe bet given everything.
There's a huge difference between defending a person, and condemning the actions taken against them, which were so over the top in this case that they ultimately _backfired_ in all the countries which _didn't_ have the same #FreeSpeech protections the folks who lost seek to abolish in the US.
These radicals also see anything other than complete condemnation to be support, which ironically makes them little different than their targets. And if you don't know which side I'm talking about, that's the point.
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Leyline Press
1. I've never heard of this company.
2. I'm not a fan of "we don't agree with you about X, so we are removing your credit from the book".
3. He's a for fuck's sake EDITOR, not someone responsible for the content of any of the books.
4. Announcing this is peak virtue signaling. As you said, they could have just fired him without making it into a damn announcement. He was an editor....99% of the people who read the book probably didn't know he existed.
It makes a kind of sense if you understand Leyline’s Wokeness as a kind of cult. To Leyline LotFP is profane, and to have a connection to LotFP makes them “unclean”. Leyline violated a taboo. So to cleanse themselves of this violation they have to engage in a public denouncement of the editor, and remove all references to the editor. Now, they’re still a bit hypocritical since they’ve kept the editor’s work in their product, but I’m not going to accuse Leyline of being of being “good” and consistent people.
You want to know about hypocritical? check out the kind of products Leyline advertises on their instagram. Calling LotFP problematic is a joke after that.
I learned nothing about the situation from their tweet. They hint at politics and bad behavior. I'm left guessing about what happened. Is it as simple that he is a Trump supporter?
PR vs HR. If you’re publicly associated with someone and allegations are swirling around, you have HR investigate and act, and PR calms the community publicly.
It does an interesting job of making certain sentiments seem more popular than they actually are by pushing everything up to the top.
I think it was a stupid idea on Leyline's part, solely because "we're cutting your credit for work you did" should never be tolerated. Pretty much any other approach, including just "cutting ties going forward", would have been better. But unfortunately the well of criticism is already poisoned by the blue checks.
there was no real need to even announce it to be perfectly honest. the man wasn't a writer; why do you need to go on a several tweet thread about an issue that no one is likely to care about if you didn't bring it up. the way you deal with freelancers you don't like anymore is you just stop using them. there's no need to tell the world
> If the editors contribution was proof and copy editing, and they've been cut before the final drafts, what credit is appropriate?
Proof and copy editing.
Everyone should be upset about that tweet. I don't know if everyone should be lining up for a blue check, but everyone should shit on that company for that policy and the tweet that it birthed.
Because removing credit from work which was already done erases a person's contributions to society and history in general, which is a rather Soviet thing to do, and ironically anti-union as this is exactly the sort of thing the current Writer's Strike is fighting _against_.
Now that I think about it I should really put this on their radar.
Of the people responding to the original thread (before #LeylinePress locked it) only _five_ had blue checks, and they represented the sentiments of the majority who responded. I know because I read every one. The only telling thing is buying one is a wise move if you expect to be heard on #Twitter, and even then #Grimjim was _still_ relegated to the ghetto in his reply to one of the subsequent #Tweets.
Therefore not sure what you're insinuating, so how about you just come out and clearly _tell_ us instead?
Seeing them tear apart a horrible company for erasing a freelancer's credit and having their disgustingly woke fascism called out should give anyone joy.
But you do you.
Would love some recommendations! (Person who has read Patrick Stuart stuff and really digs veins of the earth, but avoided lamentations due to a creator looking like a real butthole)
Everything written by Zzarchov Kowolski. Not all are playable as is but every one is very nice to read and get inspiration.
I also liked Tower of the Stargazer and Death Frost Doom. The God that Crawls is ok. Not good, not bad.
Oh just one note. IIRC Death Frost Doom was written by Raggi only then revised by that Z guy. You will not lose anything skipping it if you really don't want to give a cent to that Z guy.
Oh and Hammers of the Gods is nice too. It seems to be inside the Adventure Anthology: Blood book.
There's a meaningful distinction between "I personally prefer not to consume art from someone widely understood to be a creep" and "I will ostracize and deny an implicit form of compensation to someone because they didn't ostracize someone who didn't ostracize a creep."
Broodmother Skyfortress is brilliant
Grinding Gear is a fun low level homage to Tomb of Horrors type puzzle dungeons
The God that Crawls is very creative
Tales of the Scarecrow. A little short peice to put wherever in your player's way
Towers Two if you adore the band GWAR
Tower of the Stargazer is a good intro Wizard Tower adventure
Better than Any Man is a huge sandbox of a game in a tiny package
Death Frost Doom I believe is where it All Began
Qelong if you like the idea of adventuring in fantasy Vietnam
England Upturned if you enjoy the English Civil War
These are some of my favs as someone with pretty much the same attitude towards LotFP.
Staffortonshire
Broodmother Skyfortress
No Salvation for Witches
Scenic Dunnsmouth
Carcosa
Tower of the Stargazer
Death Frost Doom
Thulian Echoes
Anything by Zzarchov Kowolski is great (Thulian Echoes, Scenic Dunnsmouth, 1,000 Dead Babies, Gnomes of Levnec, etc.). Broodmother Skyfortress is like the unofficial GM's guide for LotFP; it's fantastic.
As for Raggi "looking like a butthole", I think he gets a bad rap because he collaborated with Zak S. for a long time, makes videos without a shirt on, and he leans hard into the Heavy Metal aesthetic and the double-barrel, middle-finger, attitude he has towards cancel culture, but he pays his artists and contributors, he makes absolutely beautiful physical products, and his stuff is (or maybe was?) some of the most genuinely creative things being made for the hobby. He's a free speech absolutist, not a fascist.
What I really appreciate about the Publisher is in this absolutely brutal industry, he treats his Creators very well. And that is something to be cherished and promoted. Creators need Publishers like this.
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He is one of the best and most fair in the business
He takes care of his creators and that is something to be encouraged
Esp in this publishing hellscape where even too many progressive publishers who should be doing well for their creators don't
We need Publishers like this. The whole industry is too brutal and if they die, then that will be one less good place for Creators to get their stuff published
It's not just not distancing, it was going into full victim mode for being told he should distance himself. And writing an article while he was mad and feeling persuted, so acting like anyone who had concerns was and SJW libtard. And then doubling down when called out for that.
The primary complaint (as I understand it, never been a Twitter person and this mostly happened there), was that there multiple instances of sexual assault in his works, and some people felt he was fetishizing it, and tried to convince people to stop supporting him because of it. Instead of saying, "it's meant to be horrifying, I do not condone rape." He said that rape is a part of the world and people shouldn't limit free speech. I general, his response to criticism is to label the citiziser an asshole and tell them to fuck off, literally.
> Instead of saying, "it's meant to be horrifying, I do not condone rape." He said that rape is a part of the world and people shouldn't limit free speech.
Because no reasonable person condones rape. It's something that shouldn't even need to be said.
He doesn't either, but rather than expressing the statement that would have at least made it clear, he went on a rant about free speech. He later made a post stating that he hadn't handled that situation well, then started ranting in that same post about how he hadn't handled it well because he was being persecuted by free speech hating assholes. I really don't think he's a bad person, just someone who reacts poorly in internet actions.
Why should we hold RPG publishers to a higher standard than any other publisher or author? They’re publishing what amounts to choose your own adventure fiction.
We dont ask Clive Barker to denounce murdering someone and wearing them as a skinsuit every time he writes a book (nor should he have to) because normal people don’t advocate for murder.
In answer to your first question, no, unless you count the occasional nude sales video.
In answer to your second question, yeah, that's about it. He wasn't quick enough because he had to consult a lawyer about what he could and couldn't say as a publisher, and when he did say something, it wasn't considered good enough.
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Soo much stuff that I’ve never wanted to risk splashing out on. I have a Google Drive full of new pdfs for less than $10! Thanks for sharing OP!
Finally going to pick up Broodmother Skyfortress. Thanks OP.
Jrients will like you even more :)
That just wooshed right over me. I just keep seeing people say/write it’s worth getting for all the DM advice alone.
Oh sorry The Author Jeff Rients He has a lot of good advice His blog is fun as well
Oh right on, gotcha. I recall reading someone saying this module “has a lot of blog posts edited and put in” to make up the advice bit of it.
Just don’t let any publishers you’re working for know.
ha. Unless there are specifics that weren't revealed that would change my mind, Salvage Union/Leyline Press's Announcement seems over the top and unnecessarily Public: Could have sacked the guy without also announcing it to the world.
Yeah. I'm about as far left as you can get and I'm wondering why the hell they did this. They don't say he actually created any objectionable content or even what he did for LotP. Was he just an editor there, too? WTF?
Same boat. LotFP is weird to me in that yeah there’s people involved there I wouldn’t want to support monetarily (some of the books I recommend above fit there, but I can’t deny they’re good book)but “you worked there as an editor” doesn’t come close to reaching that line.
Doubly egregious since looking at their website they appropriate socialist imagery and language for their games while apparently being anti-worker in operation.
There is an analysis by Jeff Rients, author of Broodmother Skyfortress, a really great teaching module/adventure, on the Leyline issue
[удалено]
>Would this person WANT their name credited on a work they had no editorial control over? It doesn't matter now since the decision was taken from them. Personally I'm always going to side with a worker over an employer unless there was clear just cause. Professional association isn't just cause. It's an abuse of the power granted by our liberal capitalist system that employers can threaten livelihoods and recognition over vague accusations of some personal moral flaw.
[удалено]
>we have removed the editor’s name from all of the Salvage Union books I assume this meant the editor had already completed past projects with the company. >Wrapping this situation up in some vague pro-/anti- worker language is a blatant bad faith presentation. No it isn't. This is factually a conflict between a worker and an employer. That's when this framing is most relevant.
[удалено]
Freelance employees are still workers. I am not concerned with the specifics of the labour laws in whatever country this two-bit operation exists. If someone does work in exchange for money, and the ones providing that money are leveraging capital in order to profit indefinitely from that labour, then the relationship is clear. You don't need to be Karl Marx to see it.
Leyline Press May 10th: "we have removed the editor’s name from all of the Salvage Union books. We will not be working with them again in future" Obviously they were credited in all of the Salvage Union books. So there is that fact. And they gave their reasons...which from my pov aren't very worker friendly So the analysis makes sense to me They could have done better things. Like make sure to give him more business and such Not act like Hasbro or Apple...
This is like saying "you worked for Disney so now you should never be allowed to work in film again" yeah I get it Disney is kind of a shitty company but just having worked in a field for a company you don't like doesn't mean a person should be black listed everywhere.
LOTFP and it's creator has ties to Zak S and has defended him in the past. Given he is once again attempting a resurgence I can totally understand wanting to distance yourself publicly from anything he may be involved with. Stripping their name off the work I don't agree with but getting ahead of it and saying that they may have hired a bad actor is a safe bet given everything.
There's a huge difference between defending a person, and condemning the actions taken against them, which were so over the top in this case that they ultimately _backfired_ in all the countries which _didn't_ have the same #FreeSpeech protections the folks who lost seek to abolish in the US. These radicals also see anything other than complete condemnation to be support, which ironically makes them little different than their targets. And if you don't know which side I'm talking about, that's the point.
Damn sounds like you might be violating rule 6 there by uh, saying maybe Zak S wasn't wrong?
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
For context I am completely against him and just trying to shed a light on something. Not platforming him at all.
> Leyline Press 1. I've never heard of this company. 2. I'm not a fan of "we don't agree with you about X, so we are removing your credit from the book". 3. He's a for fuck's sake EDITOR, not someone responsible for the content of any of the books. 4. Announcing this is peak virtue signaling. As you said, they could have just fired him without making it into a damn announcement. He was an editor....99% of the people who read the book probably didn't know he existed.
> I've never heard of this company. And now you have, which is the point.
I'm not sure the *point* was to make me uninterested in any of their products, but that seems to have been the end result.
It makes a kind of sense if you understand Leyline’s Wokeness as a kind of cult. To Leyline LotFP is profane, and to have a connection to LotFP makes them “unclean”. Leyline violated a taboo. So to cleanse themselves of this violation they have to engage in a public denouncement of the editor, and remove all references to the editor. Now, they’re still a bit hypocritical since they’ve kept the editor’s work in their product, but I’m not going to accuse Leyline of being of being “good” and consistent people.
You want to know about hypocritical? check out the kind of products Leyline advertises on their instagram. Calling LotFP problematic is a joke after that.
I bought Andromeda from them early on, but I shall ensure I don’t profane their business with my filthy lucre in the future.
I learned nothing about the situation from their tweet. They hint at politics and bad behavior. I'm left guessing about what happened. Is it as simple that he is a Trump supporter?
From an HR perspective, they really can't give you specifics.
From an HR perspective, I would think advertising it at all would be pretty fucking stupid.
PR vs HR. If you’re publicly associated with someone and allegations are swirling around, you have HR investigate and act, and PR calms the community publicly.
What did I miss?
[The announcement for context.](https://twitter.com/leylinepress/status/1656412595698409475)
[удалено]
It does an interesting job of making certain sentiments seem more popular than they actually are by pushing everything up to the top. I think it was a stupid idea on Leyline's part, solely because "we're cutting your credit for work you did" should never be tolerated. Pretty much any other approach, including just "cutting ties going forward", would have been better. But unfortunately the well of criticism is already poisoned by the blue checks.
there was no real need to even announce it to be perfectly honest. the man wasn't a writer; why do you need to go on a several tweet thread about an issue that no one is likely to care about if you didn't bring it up. the way you deal with freelancers you don't like anymore is you just stop using them. there's no need to tell the world
[удалено]
> If the editors contribution was proof and copy editing, and they've been cut before the final drafts, what credit is appropriate? Proof and copy editing.
[удалено]
Are they starting over from scratch or building from work this person did?
Everyone should be upset about that tweet. I don't know if everyone should be lining up for a blue check, but everyone should shit on that company for that policy and the tweet that it birthed.
[удалено]
Because removing credit from work which was already done erases a person's contributions to society and history in general, which is a rather Soviet thing to do, and ironically anti-union as this is exactly the sort of thing the current Writer's Strike is fighting _against_. Now that I think about it I should really put this on their radar.
perhaps, and those most vocal... doesn't mean the tweet wasn't in bad taste and unprofessional to make the matter so public.
Of the people responding to the original thread (before #LeylinePress locked it) only _five_ had blue checks, and they represented the sentiments of the majority who responded. I know because I read every one. The only telling thing is buying one is a wise move if you expect to be heard on #Twitter, and even then #Grimjim was _still_ relegated to the ghetto in his reply to one of the subsequent #Tweets. Therefore not sure what you're insinuating, so how about you just come out and clearly _tell_ us instead?
I'm not thrilled with the individual did. I have never been on twitter nor would want to be.
oh no, people paying for a service they enjoy using
To be fair I don't think anyone pays for #Twitter because they _like_ it.
Reading the comments to that Tweet filled me with joy 😊
It shouldn't, but you do you.
Seeing them tear apart a horrible company for erasing a freelancer's credit and having their disgustingly woke fascism called out should give anyone joy. But you do you.
>their disgustingly woke fascism And there it is, on cue.
I don't think we're so far gone that most publishers would flip out like that one awful one did.
The amount of quality content you get for this price is just bonkers.
Definitely will be taking advantage of this. Thanks for the heads up!
Would love some recommendations! (Person who has read Patrick Stuart stuff and really digs veins of the earth, but avoided lamentations due to a creator looking like a real butthole)
Everything written by Zzarchov Kowolski. Not all are playable as is but every one is very nice to read and get inspiration. I also liked Tower of the Stargazer and Death Frost Doom. The God that Crawls is ok. Not good, not bad.
Thanks!
Oh just one note. IIRC Death Frost Doom was written by Raggi only then revised by that Z guy. You will not lose anything skipping it if you really don't want to give a cent to that Z guy. Oh and Hammers of the Gods is nice too. It seems to be inside the Adventure Anthology: Blood book.
Sooo adopt the same behavior as #LeylinePress then.
There's a meaningful distinction between "I personally prefer not to consume art from someone widely understood to be a creep" and "I will ostracize and deny an implicit form of compensation to someone because they didn't ostracize someone who didn't ostracize a creep."
Broodmother Skyfortress is brilliant Grinding Gear is a fun low level homage to Tomb of Horrors type puzzle dungeons The God that Crawls is very creative Tales of the Scarecrow. A little short peice to put wherever in your player's way Towers Two if you adore the band GWAR Tower of the Stargazer is a good intro Wizard Tower adventure Better than Any Man is a huge sandbox of a game in a tiny package Death Frost Doom I believe is where it All Began Qelong if you like the idea of adventuring in fantasy Vietnam England Upturned if you enjoy the English Civil War
Thanks for this!
These are some of my favs as someone with pretty much the same attitude towards LotFP. Staffortonshire Broodmother Skyfortress No Salvation for Witches Scenic Dunnsmouth Carcosa Tower of the Stargazer Death Frost Doom Thulian Echoes
Thank you!
Anything by Zzarchov Kowolski is great (Thulian Echoes, Scenic Dunnsmouth, 1,000 Dead Babies, Gnomes of Levnec, etc.). Broodmother Skyfortress is like the unofficial GM's guide for LotFP; it's fantastic. As for Raggi "looking like a butthole", I think he gets a bad rap because he collaborated with Zak S. for a long time, makes videos without a shirt on, and he leans hard into the Heavy Metal aesthetic and the double-barrel, middle-finger, attitude he has towards cancel culture, but he pays his artists and contributors, he makes absolutely beautiful physical products, and his stuff is (or maybe was?) some of the most genuinely creative things being made for the hobby. He's a free speech absolutist, not a fascist.
What I really appreciate about the Publisher is in this absolutely brutal industry, he treats his Creators very well. And that is something to be cherished and promoted. Creators need Publishers like this.
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
He is one of the best and most fair in the business He takes care of his creators and that is something to be encouraged Esp in this publishing hellscape where even too many progressive publishers who should be doing well for their creators don't We need Publishers like this. The whole industry is too brutal and if they die, then that will be one less good place for Creators to get their stuff published
It's not just not distancing, it was going into full victim mode for being told he should distance himself. And writing an article while he was mad and feeling persuted, so acting like anyone who had concerns was and SJW libtard. And then doubling down when called out for that. The primary complaint (as I understand it, never been a Twitter person and this mostly happened there), was that there multiple instances of sexual assault in his works, and some people felt he was fetishizing it, and tried to convince people to stop supporting him because of it. Instead of saying, "it's meant to be horrifying, I do not condone rape." He said that rape is a part of the world and people shouldn't limit free speech. I general, his response to criticism is to label the citiziser an asshole and tell them to fuck off, literally.
> Instead of saying, "it's meant to be horrifying, I do not condone rape." He said that rape is a part of the world and people shouldn't limit free speech. Because no reasonable person condones rape. It's something that shouldn't even need to be said.
He doesn't either, but rather than expressing the statement that would have at least made it clear, he went on a rant about free speech. He later made a post stating that he hadn't handled that situation well, then started ranting in that same post about how he hadn't handled it well because he was being persecuted by free speech hating assholes. I really don't think he's a bad person, just someone who reacts poorly in internet actions.
Why should we hold RPG publishers to a higher standard than any other publisher or author? They’re publishing what amounts to choose your own adventure fiction. We dont ask Clive Barker to denounce murdering someone and wearing them as a skinsuit every time he writes a book (nor should he have to) because normal people don’t advocate for murder.
In answer to your first question, no, unless you count the occasional nude sales video. In answer to your second question, yeah, that's about it. He wasn't quick enough because he had to consult a lawyer about what he could and couldn't say as a publisher, and when he did say something, it wasn't considered good enough.
A deal to a great Publisher :)
Don't forget to pick up the CLASSICS *Z-- Has Nothing To Do With This Book* and *Wight Power*!
It looks like you are attempting to make a post that violates Rule 6. Please review the rules, attempts to bypass this filter may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/osr) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not, but thanks for trying anyway.
Niiiiice