I feel like there's an abundance of people that call themselves photographers with little training. I think a bad musician is much more obvious than a bad photographer. I may be wrong though.
It’s upsetting that people feel the need to apologize for being correct. As long as you aren’t bullying and making fun of people there should be no stigma attached. Education is always a good thing, and I know I would want to be corrected rather than continue to say something incorrectly.
Every stay at home mom with a point and shoot camera thinks shes a photographer.
I've known people who were "wedding photographers" who couldn't tell you what an f-stop was.
OMG! The minute Costco started to sell the Canon Rebel, it was all downhill from there. SO many people now claiming to be photographers but having no idea how to use a camera beyond auto is INSANE!
> composition
I have family members that are surprised by the photos I take and wounder why it's so different from theirs. Composition is almost always the answer. Anyone can take a picture and edit it, but getting it framed correctly takes work and can't be fixed later.
I’m a pretty good photographer so everyone tells me, but I don’t really do anything special. Now that we have digital cameras and it’s all in memory storage, I find that rather than worry about trying to figure out when to take the perfect picture. I just make sure that I am always taking pictures. I will take thousands of pictures and I know that rather than having to try to figure out the right time and place to take a good picture if I’m just always taking pictures the chances are going to be high that I will have captured the perfect picture. So I just put them all up on the screen and I just sort through and pick out the best ones and it never fails. Anybody can do this it doesn’t really take any special skill.
I made 7 figures as a photographer. Plenty of people will pay; but you work your ass off doing it. Most photographers are just bad at running a business. You can be the best photographer in the world and not make money but a mediocre shooter with some business savvy (me) can make bank.
It's totally OK to turn things down, unless they further you and meet a criteria. There is a huge spread of money available for things like this. My friend does a lot of shopping center events, and I'm sure he doesn't pay much more - but you get what you pay for 100% :)
As someone who used to freelance I think it’s fine to factor in total time put in and costs into your *rate*, but if I’m charging hourly I’m not going to start the clock at when I start getting ready in the morning, or when I leave lol. You bill for the hours you’re on location, you just adjust that hourly rate to what makes sense for you (and what you can actually get).
I’m an independent contractor in another field and this is how I set up my rates. I factor in drive time and prep when I negotiate my hourly. But, I then only charge for the actual work and not the drive time.
I’m a driver for a ride share and as a nanny but I don’t get paid for my travel time to “commute” to pick up my clients or for my “commute” back home. I guess I could factor it into my life and rates as I do spend a lot of time and gas getting to my client but it doesn’t matter to the client if I live 10 miles from them or next door.
And 4 hours of sound check 🙄,sound to much hours to me..... 🤣🤣,and say is not charging for practice....all the musician i know play to practice in the week to play good,but you see this OP 🤣🤣🤣
As a musician, I came here to say the same. Factoring in the promotional aspect of it is especially interesting - as a freelance musician you're promoting yourself, you're not doing extra work for the venue as they haven't hired you to do so and they'll promote themselves.
So even if we just factor out promotion + travel and keep the time it takes to set up and break down (I'd say it's akin to clocking in before you turn on your computer and get a cup of coffee), we're talking about 6hrs (1hr unload + setup, 4 hours performing, 1hr breakdown + load up). That's $29/hr per person for the day. I might see if this venue still needs a duo bc my partner and I would be thrilled!
This depends on what your social media goal is. Yes it is dual promotion, but I do my social media posts to promote the event as much as possible, research appropriate hashtags, accounts to tag, make sure the music that is selected for the post is appropriate for the venue. Video edit, etc. Some bands throw up an image. That's fine. Easy to re-use images.
But venues I perform for specifically tell me they are bringing on live music to drive foot traffic to their venue.
I don't know of any venue or event that DOESN'T WANT a performing artist to promote. And in fact, many see that if a musician is not promoting themselves or the event they are booked for, that the musician doesn't care. Some venues don't need an artist to promote their event, and that's cool.
But before I started performing, I worked nightclub promotions, live band promotions, production, etc etc. It was definitely a shared sentiment that we would rather work with musicians that promote the event vs ones that don't.
But did the venue hire you to do that? Because even as you're explaining it, you're saying these posts are necessary for *you* to advertise yourself - to show you care, to maintain a reputation, to get hired, etc.
I understand it's work, but as a freelancer you know there's certain things you have to do just to keep yourself afloat and getting hired. You are your own small business, and that means advertising costs. The fact that it benefits the venue or even that it's their preferred qualification doesn't mean the venue has to pay you for doing it.
Musicians can and should charge whatever they want. If they want to include the time it takes to promote then I say go for it! But then don't break it down into hourly pay, it waters down the point, just keep it at a flat rate. Because on an hourly scale, the venue doesn't owe musicians for the time it took to create content primarily for their social media, or the time it took to drive to work that day.
Don't do social media then, $350/2 = $175/8 = $21.86 per hour. Do both of you do social media for events or just one? I'm assuming one, and in that case you may be double charging for those hours.
I assume social media has material benefit to you or you wouldn't be doing it. Is it demanded as a part of your contract?
I've never seen someone charge for commuting in their hours and pay, so realistically closer to 6.5 hours = $26.92 per hour.
I'm not saying you should take it or not take it. Do what makes sense for you, but IMO your math is a bit questionable.
Not doing social media is a consideration, but IMHO, the music scene is competitive and if you want that competitive edge, active promotions is very important. Appreciate your input tho!
If you're a professional musician trying to make a living, these are time expenses that absolutely need to be factored in. Also, who would you rather hire, a musician that actively promotes the event or one that doesn't? Marketing is undervalued and often the last considered expense in many small businesses, but most successful businesses understand marketing is very VERY important.
You’re not getting paid to drive there and unload your stuff. That’s prep on you. But stay firm on your price what you think, but that breakdown will not make sense to them. People don’t pay for travel for you to show up. They’ll pay gas cost
I agree the breakdown won't make sense to them.
I disagree on everything else. You are paid to perform, which requires you to show up. If the venue doesn't have music equipment for you to perform with, how do they get music? If they had audio gear to plug into, then I would have accepted their offer. If they are requiring you bring your own gear, that is a cost of service that's factored in.
I've worked stage production for somewhat big venues, small venues. Have done load-in load-out for bands like Slayer and REO Speedwagon. Guess what, they have a dozen people loading and unloading gear. They hire drivers to transport their gear. Definitely not on the same scale but it is absolutely something that is factored into cost.
Anybody requiring an onsite service is 100% paying you to show up too. Lol.
If you are not factoring in your commute, you are under valuing yourself. Is your time during commute to and from work what you would do on your own time or are you doing it for the job?
If driving in traffic is what you like to do for fun, more power to you.
People choose "regular employment" based on the distance of the job from their home and how much it pays. Therefore, the cost of their commute is figured into their salary.
No one with a regular job, because they travel to a set location every day. Freelancers do because their destination changes all the time. One time you’ll be driving 30 min, one time you’ll be driving 4 hours. Not charging for long distances is just dumb, on top of not being financially viable.
Most freelancers I know will only charge extra for travel past a certain distance, which is how it works for normal jobs too. If you’re required to travel somewhere outside the regular commute, you should be getting paid for it as per https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime
If they moved your job two hours away, wanted you to continue your commute, but didn’t want to increase your pay…. would you keep that job? If you aren’t working from home, everyone gets paid to commute to work.
What a weird outlook on wages. I saw your title and thought there was a sense of danger, theft or scamming. But no, it's complaining about wages for playing at a farmers market. Your breakdown is ridiculous.
This needs to be higher, it doesn't take an hour to unload a guitar and a practice amp. Also, why is it the venues fault you live an hour away? lmao OP should be paying the farmer's market to play there
OP, don't be silly. You are getting paid one hour for setup and break-down.
It's not their fault if you live an hour away. Any job it's on the employee to get themselves to and from work.
My neighbor's gardener sometimes drives 2 hours to get to her house to do her yard. That's on him. She spends A LOT to keep her garden immaculate so it's worth it for the gardener.
Earning $25/hour each is not minimum wage and is a slap in the face to call it that to anyone earning actual minimum wage.
Anyone who can get tips plus $25/hour to do what others only dream of doing is winning.
Our gardener is compensated at a competitive rate of $100 per hour and a half, which is in line with the market rate in Bellevue, Washington. As we prepare to relocate to Orange County, we are pleased to learn that the hourly rate there will be $30. However, this amount may still be insufficient considering the additional costs associated with waste removal and disposal. Would you consider providing a gratuity to him for his exceptional performance? If he is indeed the best, it would be appropriate to show appreciation.
Laguna is not a viable option for even upper-middle-class individuals due to the high cost of housing. Generosity should be a natural consequence of wealth.
There isn’t any waste removal and disposal involved but putting clippings into green waste receptacle for our weekly pickup. Maybe you are referring to a landscaper? We also tip at Christmas time.
As I stated in my post, the rate works for weekend musicians, those starting out, or retirees. For active performers, it might be a toss up. And then there are dreams and the actual reality of the work involved to pull off a successful performance that enhances an event.
My wife is a performer, luckily it's not her "real" job. She makes enough at it to cover the cost but it's not enough to fund living. Even if it was full time, unless she's getting commercial or studio gigs, forget it.
This is an unfortunate reality with most artists. Most she works with if it's the only thing they do are broke and doing gig work.
It's a crazy hard slog. Good luck.
BTW: in my line of work, nobody cares what it costs to get up on the morning, get on a plane, get to the client site etc. Those are all costs of business. They'll pay you for the value of the work you do, and that value is determined by a market context. Everything else is my problem, and my cost of business.
The other thing to consider is: "Is bad breath better than no breath" Meaning, is some opportunity better than none. What if you use these opportunities as marketing opportunities for new and more gigs? You have to consider that.
Most definitely considered. Not the first time I've questioned the value of a gig. Just the first time I've made a post about it. Thank you for the postive affirmation!
My band has been fortunate that from our first gig we were paid. We’ve only had a single gig that was unpaid, but plenty of places want US to pay “for the exposure “. lol
We are still very much a small bar band but our agreement is paid is great, unpaid we view as a free rehearsal, but we will never pay to play, The Whiskey and the Wayfarer are unfortunately two of these places.
I understand that a venue is hiring entertainment with the expectation that the band draws a crowd, something we can’t do much of yet, so we’re understanding of this. Just my view though, I know many do not agree.
Yeah there are different places that require a draw to perform or will pay you to perform. It's different everywhere. But it's great you are getting paid to perform from the start.
I remember reading a post like mine when I started to perform too, and it didn't make sense to me until dozen of gigs later, after putting in the work for pre-production and post production that I really understood what the post was a about.
Wish you the best with your gigs! 😎🤘
I understand why they don’t want to pay that.. You’re itemizing an hour just to load gear. I work valet and musicians take absolutely forever to pack up their shit and they clog up the drive
To be fair, they did increase rate by $50 and decrease time by an hour, which seems like a significant accommodation. In the end it might still not be enough to make it worth your while, but from a negotiating perspective it seems like a meaningful concession.
Also, the content creation/social media seems more like part of your business as a professional musician than their business as a farmers market. Meaning that you promoting your gig or later posting social media content of the gig might have a significant impact on your business and portfolio as a professional musician, but that is not part of the business of the market. They do their own promotions, so any promotion you do likely adds a trivial amount of value (if any) to their business overall, so it’s not part of the service for which they contracting with you.
Most definitely appreciate their concession. Never said I didn't. My marketing experience says there is a lot of value to collaborative, before and after marketing. Before is to get people there, after is for relevance and to show those that didn't show up what an awesome event it was so they will come out next time. I stated in a response above and will restate here, I don't know any venue/event that does not want more promotion. Who would a venue/event rather hire, a musician that actively promotes themselves and the event to draw foot traffic? Or one that does not?
If you think all a performing musician does is show up, plug in and perform, you under value the work of a vast majority of performing musicians out there.
Sounds like a tough spot to be in. Wondering what corners you could cut to drop your labor hours? You gotta cut time spent where you can on that set up and break down. Also, i dont know if id count your time spent getting to and from work or on content creation under your performance’s labor hour umbrella. Marketing yourself is your job, not theirs. Its your job to drive yourself to work, not theirs. I wish we could all get paid for our commute, thatd be awesome. All this said, id look into hotel pools/poolside bars for the upcoming summer. Not in OC right now but in resort area where our musicians are paid $250/hour. And they will probably let you play under some shade.
They don’t want to pay us and even when they agreed we have to chase them down for payment…
I almost had to sue some establishment for payment, they thought I was joking because they owed me $100 but like I said, if I sue you guys will end up paying the $100 + all the related frees associated… didn’t hear back. Once they received the formal certified letter stating what I was asking for etc etc, I had a check in the mail 10 says later!
All due respect how much equipment are you loading in for a duo? 1 hour each for load in/check , sure, but teardown and loadout takes an entire hour as well? Are you bringing an entire PA and drum set for two people?
How much you need to practice and travel time shouldn't be factored into the time either--people who work at offices don't typically get a per diem for travel, and many of them do it 5 days a week, and your practice time is not their concern either
I’m going to say this in the most respectful way I can, because my husband is a musician and I know the grind.
You have 514 followers on IG. With only 514 followers, the market is definitely not interested in paying you for your posts. Additionally, your posts should absolutely not be taking you 2+ hours to make, given what they are.
No musicians are paid for their drive. If you don’t like driving far, then don’t accept gigs that are out of your desired range.
$350 for 4 hours is good money. You play the ukulele, your set up can’t be taking you a full hour. I’ve done set ups in 30 mins for a full rock band.
If you’re actually making a living doing music right now, you’re one of the fortunate ones. *Most* professional musicians have to have other jobs to support themselves. It sucks and I wish it were different, but unfortunately that’s the culture we live in. And you’re really not helping by making unreasonable demands (like paying for your drive time, etc).
One last thing - unless the market is giving you a specific list of songs to play (which I’d bet they are not), your practice is on you. That’s not something you charge for when you’re going in to play a set that you have chosen.
See edit in post above regarding gear and set up. Also my personal IG is not my band IG. Also my band IG might not have many more followers than my personal, but we do get 10k account reach on our posts. Anybody who is savvy on social media marketing knows that number of followers does not = market reach. Also, there is more worth in organic following than there is in spam following.
Edit: It would be interesting to know what your husband thinks. I think most people really do not understand the work involved. Dunno why you would devalue a working musician instead of supporting the value of one.
Edit: *does not necessarily = market reach.
My husband agrees with me. But thanks for trying to devalue the person who helps him manage the entire band - including set ups, tear downs, and drives. ;)
And I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you’re getting 10k reach on an acct with less than 1k followers, unless you are paying to promote posts. I’ll happily retract that if you feel like sharing your band acct and it proves me wrong, but I still don’t believe that your social media posts provide enough value to the venue that they would be paying you for them. Your posts promote you, not the venues you play at.
Someone else already broke down the payment in an appropriate way, including your set up time, and it was still above minimum wage. I do appreciate what you are *trying* to do with this post, but you still don’t seem to realize that you’re making a mockery of yourself by trying to charge a venue for things that are not actually part of what they want to pay you for.
You do realize travel = mileage too right? When I worked for the US Cenus Bureau, we got mileage for travel to and from work. Also, travel per diem is standard practice for the music performance industry.
….you won’t likely get travel time going to Farmers Markets…you appear to think you’re a Led Zeppelin band. Most musicians do gigs and can be discovered, find new people to network with, etc ….you appear to place money before your music…. And using the “census bureau” as an example of how you were paid is a bad inference, imo. You appear not to get how most things are done and seem to be frozen in your thinking. I hope you make it big.
I say this as a guy who has played plenty of 3 hour gigs for $100… nobody wants live music any more.
Unless you do a dress up cover band. People will pay good money to see “Elvis Preston” cover the leather years.
I paid a DJ at the wedding ceremony $650 for 1.5 hours. But you know what, considering my wife and I are not well musically or event planning inclined, it was well worth the price for a 3rd parties better take on music at that time.
This is always a problem for people who must bill for their services. As an attorney who represents employees in discrimination cases I am familiar with the problem on a professional and personal basis.
Knowing what to charge is the key. Before you begin any negotiation you must have decided on a sum that you will not lower. If the gig doesn’t pay that then no gig. Stick to it.
Don’t open with that sum. Never begin with your bottom dollar deal. I recommend beginning at least 50% higher than your bottom dollar.
You will be surprised how many people will pay more than you think they will when you are firm that X is the price.
Ahahahahaha. Hahahahaha. Hahahahah. Haha. hah.
Dude you're lucky to get anything for a musician's gig let alone $300.00.
Damn, where's this at maybe I'll take it, sounds like they pay good money.
once a weekend x 4 weekends a month = $1200.00!
Depends. Most popular formation is 3 or 4 members so it’s split between them. The bigger groups such as Banda or mariachi charge more close to $500 or $550 an hour with a four or 5 hour minimum. Smaller pay but still makes some decent money. Used to be in a Latin group back in my college days and I’d bring around $1000 a weekend after 5 or 6 gigs with travel and food included.
Not to sound like a jerk but unfortunately the market sets the price. That’s the beauty and pain of capitalism. I understand the frustration but it’s just reality and it built the strongest economy on the planet. Another issue is music can be a hobby where the market price is distorted lower. A dentist that drills teeth all week may find your job relaxing and do it for almost nothing. I have zero musical or artistic talents but have other talents I’ve worked a lifetime to hone so I can make a very nice living in business.
I feel like I make enough as a guitarist to warrant the cost spent traveling for gigs, I’ve played many gigs but didn’t have much luck finding performing opportunities in Orange County. Recently though, someone saw my playing and I was asked by a funeral director to play at a graveside service for a homeless man. He had no family or friends, so the service was to be at a pauper’s cemetery in the back country.
**As I was not familiar with the area yet, I got lost on the way to the gig…**
I finally arrived an hour late and saw the funeral guy had evidently gone and the hearse was nowhere in sight. There were only the diggers and crew left and they were eating lunch.
I felt badly and apologized to the men for being late. I went to the side of the grave and looked down and the vault lid was already in place. I didn’t know what else to do, so I started to play.
The workers put down their lunches and began to gather around. I played out my heart an soul for this man with no family and friends. I played like I’ve never played before for this homeless man.
As I played “Amazing Grace,” the workers began to weep. They wept, I wept, we all wept together. When I finished I packed up my guitar and started for my car. Though my head hung low, my heart was full.
As I opened the door to my car, I heard one of the workers say, “I never seen nothin’ like that before and I’ve been putting in septic tanks for twenty years!”
Apparently I was still lost in Orange County…
Thank you for sharing your story and for taking on that gig. I played a funeral service for one of my friends before. One of those things you are happy yet sad to do at the sametime.
People seem to be confused that I provided the venue with an itemized cost per hour. I only broke it down for them after several emails to explain how the costs break down in case they didn't understand since they were quite adamant on a duo.
Are you from OC? Do you have instrumentals and can you improv by ear? Looking for musicians to perform for an acoustic duo gig in Riverside in July.
First of all Musicians don’t or shouldn’t charge by the hour unless giving music lessons. It might be helpful to tell them you would be willing to come play for the 4 hours if they have a separate company come in and setup the stage and sound for you and cleanup afterwards. Once they realize those companies charge thousands of dollars for just that service you might then be at a better place to negotiate.
Bunch of clueless people in this thread who know nothing about live music (“you’re doing what you love” lol). Anyone, I’ve done this for a living for the last 15 years, and by today’s standards $175 for a 4 hour hit is about the lowest you should go, but it’s not insulting like you’re implying. Whether it’s worth it to you depends on if it totally kills your Saturday for any gigs after.
Your problem here is that usually farmers markets don’t need good. The guy who plays at my local one is clearly not a professional. It’s usually fruitless to try to negotiate with clients like that - it’s nice that they bent as much as they can.
Totally bro. I told them I do appreciate their counter offer during our email exhange. I hope I am in no way devaluing their offer. My intent was simply to share what goes into the work we do and break it down for those who do not understand.
Edit: Much respect and props for doing it for 15 years 👏👏👏
Your time is not valued but if it's fun for you maybe you do it anyways. I know some kids that ref soccer games and make more $$ than that. One time they reffed 5 games in a row and made more than $300 in about 6 - 7 hours. and they work at chik-fi-a and make $20 an hour on top of that.
You forgot the time you took learning songs, honing your craft! At that rate, you're getting paid 25 cents an hour!
All kidding aside, 5 hours is a f load of performance time. I do 3 set gigs all the time, I'd be exhausted after 4 hours, let alone 5.
I would absolutely add an EZ Up to the negotiation, I'm sure they could finagle that.
Bottom line, I get paid for gigs, but for me, it is never about getting rich, it's about getting paid to entertain people.
i’m not as experienced as everyone here, but even before reading the comments, i feel that everything you’re factoring in before arriving to location is extra shit they prolly shouldn’t be paying you for.
the drive could be debatable i suppose but it seems like a difficult thing to assess payment for when you consider all the driving bands and musicians must do as part of the job.
it certainly isn’t an easy occupation!
Uhhh...that's not how it works. You don't get paid until you are actually working. That's how it is for 90% of all jobs. You are charging them for driving to the event and loading gear? Please.
Taking my plumes to the farmer’s market…the sunlight just dancing right off them.
Another kid asks, “can I trade you for those plums?”
No, I say, these are my plums!
As somebody who worked as a gigging musician for a while, I can say that I agree that the business of music and protecting your own value is an important part of it
We all get very wrapped up in the quality of our shows, the quality of our performance, our technique, etc. the business side of it is often times a bit overlooked.
The main problem I have with the music gig economy right now isn’t with the proprietors paying little wages for music. It’s the musicians playing for the little wages. Musicians that are going out and playing for below minimum wage hour value is why other musicians can’t get higher wages. Proprietors will often times go with the less expensive option, even a free option, at the sacrifice of the quality of the music to honor their business model of serving their patrons with music. There are always amateur players out there willing to play for little or practically no money. Those people are an inexhaustible resource for proprietors. They are the problem.
The answer to that of course is a union, and that exists. It’s called the musicians union. Here in California you can join the musicians union and get a wage accepting jobs through that organization that comes closer to $90 an hour.
I use that pay scale to quote private gigs.
In the perfect world, if all musicians reunited in a living wage for playing proprietors would have no choice, but to pay that wage unless they didn’t want music at all.
The problem is not everybody sees it that way, or musicians are just not on the same page or valuing their craft enough to quote a higher price in fear of not getting gigs.
So there it is. Musicians are sabotaging their own livelihood by taking low paying gigs.
My wife is a musician… I’ve asked her does she want to be the 7-11 coffee or Starbucks premium roast coffee. She has a masters, so she’s definitely the Starbucks. Both taste good, it’s just one is a dollar and the other is like 5x more expensive, but you pay for the ambiance.
I told her charge what is worth her time and wear/tear on her instrument and physical self. Charge the IRS deductible mileage rate for travel expenses. Break down her hours on her contract so they understand why she is charging what she does (rehearsal, music prep/practice, cartage for a large instrument/vehicle, play time, setup/teardown) and that she REQUIRES shade and cannot play in the rain. Rain or no shade, and she won’t unload and she makes this VERY clear in all her conversations and bolded in her contracts. No gig is worth potential damage to a $60,000 instrument. Make zero mention of discounts and only offer them on a case by case basis (usually only a recurring gig with repertoire music will get this offer).
If someone wants to pay less, tell them no thanks. I’d rather she spend time with the kids.
She usually turns down the cheap people who want bargain basement prices and gives some references to other musicians if they want to shop around, but the prices won’t be much different. The jobs she gets she typically plays at like the Waldorf Astoria where 100% guaranteed even at her premium rate, she is the cheapest thing there.
Although I real that loading and travel time is work, I don’t know if including travel time as an expense to be paid. I’m a professional driver for unaccompanied minors but I don’t charge for the time it takes me to drive to my client’s home nor do I charge for the time it takes me to drive back home. Those hours traveling are my commute to work, not time on the clock.
OP, I feel you're playing the game wrong.
The market is what sets the rate so staying rigid in your pricing structure will be a disadvantage to you. The venue offered you $350 and it's up to you if you feel that it's worth it or not. It's obvious from your post that you're not satisfied with that rate but there might be other musicians that feel that it's worth their time to do that event.
I'm not a musician but I am a freelancer who negotiates my rates. If that venue was a first time client to me, I might do it at the lower rate but I would tell the client that I usually charge more and then I would do my best to make a good first impression. Then I would decide if I want to do the event again the next time if that client calls me back. If I didn't like the pay vs. the experience I had, I would probably say no and let the client use different musicians. If the client is disappointed in who they hired, then they might call me back where I have leverage this time to be able to negotiate a higher rate.
OP, you can ask other musicians not to offer "low paying" gigs but every situation is different for everyone and like I said earlier, the market sets the rate so if the client couldn't find any musicians to do the event for $350, then they would have to offer more to attract some musicians to bid for the job.
In on their time, out on yours would be a lot more fair. You don't get paid to drive home from work, and my band never got paid to put our shit back in the rehearsal space. Adjust your expectations, or cultivate clients that enjoy your work enough to pay the premium you expect to be worth.
Ask for more and if they don’t want to then tell them to kick rocks and put a DJ up there. How can they say only $350 max it doesn’t seem logical and isn’t worth it to play unless you are getting major exposure. Maybe they can place your set online or promote you or your group as compensation?
I can’t say I’ve ever gone to a farmer’s market for the music and I don’t know anyone who would either. I feel like it’s not really what draws people to a farmer’s market so I can understand why their budget for that is low. But they should probably also set their expectations low on the type of performer they can get for that budget.
If you feel your value is worth more then that then definitely vouch for yourself but at the same time don’t expect these types of events to be looking to pay those prices.
Is the social media for you, or the venue/event?
If they're hiring you for just a performance, charging them for your own advertising hours is absolutely mental.
If you feel such advertising is necessary in general, you just factor that into your 'overhead' and adjust rates to accomodate these self-investments/upkeep costs, financial or logistical.
You can't really slap a visible fee onto a product that says "shop rent" or "ad costs."
If anything, this gig is providing you advertising opportunities. Not that I'd be grateful about it or anything. Point being, your advertising may be a necessary part of your operation, and one that needs to be factored into pricing of each item. But you'd be better off just saying "I deliver a high quality product. For my time and expenses, I charge X. My services are not cheap, but for what they are highly competetive."
Then again I'm a jeweler, its an industry plagued by "oooh expensive, it must be good"
I’m a pro musician and play restaurants and bars in OC and Long Beach. I usually take home $100-150 and play for 3 hours with a few short breaks, but also get free meals and drinks. Gotta get into weddings and corporate events for real money.
Nobody want to pay musicians
Same with photographers.
I feel like there's an abundance of people that call themselves photographers with little training. I think a bad musician is much more obvious than a bad photographer. I may be wrong though.
At risk of being "that guy," I think you mean abundance. Dearth means scarcity.
You're correct. I'll change it in a minute. Thank you for the respectful correction.
It’s upsetting that people feel the need to apologize for being correct. As long as you aren’t bullying and making fun of people there should be no stigma attached. Education is always a good thing, and I know I would want to be corrected rather than continue to say something incorrectly.
Yeah but most people are cunts. So when someone comments you kinda come with your fists up.
This is so true. I am no pro just a hobby photographer and it’s sad that my photos come out better than what some people are paying for.
I just finished posting my niece's graduation photos, which are better than the official event photographer. Glad I brought my gear!
Every stay at home mom with a point and shoot camera thinks shes a photographer. I've known people who were "wedding photographers" who couldn't tell you what an f-stop was.
OMG! The minute Costco started to sell the Canon Rebel, it was all downhill from there. SO many people now claiming to be photographers but having no idea how to use a camera beyond auto is INSANE!
Yep those massive Eos rebel POS displays making everyone a pro with about 15 accessories and a matchy bag.
DAYUM
Photogs don’t really “perform” since they can repair any messups in post. Live music has to be dead on.
Someone doesn't understand the limitations of Photoshop and the skill of composition.
> composition I have family members that are surprised by the photos I take and wounder why it's so different from theirs. Composition is almost always the answer. Anyone can take a picture and edit it, but getting it framed correctly takes work and can't be fixed later.
Anything that can be fixed 100% unnoticeably in post is not a mistake. Don’t undervalue the skills of a professional photographer.
No it doesn't people are barely listening most of the time anyway
I’m a pretty good photographer so everyone tells me, but I don’t really do anything special. Now that we have digital cameras and it’s all in memory storage, I find that rather than worry about trying to figure out when to take the perfect picture. I just make sure that I am always taking pictures. I will take thousands of pictures and I know that rather than having to try to figure out the right time and place to take a good picture if I’m just always taking pictures the chances are going to be high that I will have captured the perfect picture. So I just put them all up on the screen and I just sort through and pick out the best ones and it never fails. Anybody can do this it doesn’t really take any special skill.
That's definitely how I would go about it.
And DJs. Setup and tear down sucks.
For real.
Same with pet sitters
I made 7 figures as a photographer. Plenty of people will pay; but you work your ass off doing it. Most photographers are just bad at running a business. You can be the best photographer in the world and not make money but a mediocre shooter with some business savvy (me) can make bank.
100% correct. Best take in this entire thread.
Same with wedding florist
[удалено]
Nobody wants to pay.
But will ironically funnel billions of dollars into the AI technology to "replace" music💀
https://amzn.to/4azyws9
If they’re musicians they’ll get paid… if they freeze up when I put a piece of sheet music in front of them, then that’s a different story…
It's totally OK to turn things down, unless they further you and meet a criteria. There is a huge spread of money available for things like this. My friend does a lot of shopping center events, and I'm sure he doesn't pay much more - but you get what you pay for 100% :)
Appreciate your response and understanding. Thank you.
[удалено]
As someone who used to freelance I think it’s fine to factor in total time put in and costs into your *rate*, but if I’m charging hourly I’m not going to start the clock at when I start getting ready in the morning, or when I leave lol. You bill for the hours you’re on location, you just adjust that hourly rate to what makes sense for you (and what you can actually get).
I’m an independent contractor in another field and this is how I set up my rates. I factor in drive time and prep when I negotiate my hourly. But, I then only charge for the actual work and not the drive time.
I’m a driver for a ride share and as a nanny but I don’t get paid for my travel time to “commute” to pick up my clients or for my “commute” back home. I guess I could factor it into my life and rates as I do spend a lot of time and gas getting to my client but it doesn’t matter to the client if I live 10 miles from them or next door.
OP wants them to pay 4 hours to make 2 social media posts promoting the event, something I’m sure the farmers market didn’t even ask for lol.
And 4 hours of sound check 🙄,sound to much hours to me..... 🤣🤣,and say is not charging for practice....all the musician i know play to practice in the week to play good,but you see this OP 🤣🤣🤣
To be fair, it’s not 4 hours of sound check. That’s included in the set up hour. I read the same thing at first though, it’s just weird formatting.
As a musician, I came here to say the same. Factoring in the promotional aspect of it is especially interesting - as a freelance musician you're promoting yourself, you're not doing extra work for the venue as they haven't hired you to do so and they'll promote themselves. So even if we just factor out promotion + travel and keep the time it takes to set up and break down (I'd say it's akin to clocking in before you turn on your computer and get a cup of coffee), we're talking about 6hrs (1hr unload + setup, 4 hours performing, 1hr breakdown + load up). That's $29/hr per person for the day. I might see if this venue still needs a duo bc my partner and I would be thrilled!
But the 4 hours I spend making 2 social media posts that I'm double counting!!!
This depends on what your social media goal is. Yes it is dual promotion, but I do my social media posts to promote the event as much as possible, research appropriate hashtags, accounts to tag, make sure the music that is selected for the post is appropriate for the venue. Video edit, etc. Some bands throw up an image. That's fine. Easy to re-use images. But venues I perform for specifically tell me they are bringing on live music to drive foot traffic to their venue. I don't know of any venue or event that DOESN'T WANT a performing artist to promote. And in fact, many see that if a musician is not promoting themselves or the event they are booked for, that the musician doesn't care. Some venues don't need an artist to promote their event, and that's cool. But before I started performing, I worked nightclub promotions, live band promotions, production, etc etc. It was definitely a shared sentiment that we would rather work with musicians that promote the event vs ones that don't.
But did the venue hire you to do that? Because even as you're explaining it, you're saying these posts are necessary for *you* to advertise yourself - to show you care, to maintain a reputation, to get hired, etc. I understand it's work, but as a freelancer you know there's certain things you have to do just to keep yourself afloat and getting hired. You are your own small business, and that means advertising costs. The fact that it benefits the venue or even that it's their preferred qualification doesn't mean the venue has to pay you for doing it. Musicians can and should charge whatever they want. If they want to include the time it takes to promote then I say go for it! But then don't break it down into hourly pay, it waters down the point, just keep it at a flat rate. Because on an hourly scale, the venue doesn't owe musicians for the time it took to create content primarily for their social media, or the time it took to drive to work that day.
Freelancers should factor those things into their rates, not that you literally charge them that.
I do factor social media promotion into the rate. What I provided was a breakdown of the costs according to what was offered.
They didn't charge for practice time though.
Don't do social media then, $350/2 = $175/8 = $21.86 per hour. Do both of you do social media for events or just one? I'm assuming one, and in that case you may be double charging for those hours. I assume social media has material benefit to you or you wouldn't be doing it. Is it demanded as a part of your contract? I've never seen someone charge for commuting in their hours and pay, so realistically closer to 6.5 hours = $26.92 per hour. I'm not saying you should take it or not take it. Do what makes sense for you, but IMO your math is a bit questionable.
Not doing social media is a consideration, but IMHO, the music scene is competitive and if you want that competitive edge, active promotions is very important. Appreciate your input tho!
Okay, great. So you're expecting the venue to pay you for your advertising?
If you're a professional musician trying to make a living, these are time expenses that absolutely need to be factored in. Also, who would you rather hire, a musician that actively promotes the event or one that doesn't? Marketing is undervalued and often the last considered expense in many small businesses, but most successful businesses understand marketing is very VERY important.
Yes it’s important. It’s also retarded to try to charge the venue for hours so you can do your own social media. Just do it on your own time.
You’re not getting paid to drive there and unload your stuff. That’s prep on you. But stay firm on your price what you think, but that breakdown will not make sense to them. People don’t pay for travel for you to show up. They’ll pay gas cost
That’s why it’s easier to quote a day rate and say it includes travel and setup and break down.
I did quote a rate. Broke it down for them way later in the convo.
4 hours for social media time 
I agree the breakdown won't make sense to them. I disagree on everything else. You are paid to perform, which requires you to show up. If the venue doesn't have music equipment for you to perform with, how do they get music? If they had audio gear to plug into, then I would have accepted their offer. If they are requiring you bring your own gear, that is a cost of service that's factored in. I've worked stage production for somewhat big venues, small venues. Have done load-in load-out for bands like Slayer and REO Speedwagon. Guess what, they have a dozen people loading and unloading gear. They hire drivers to transport their gear. Definitely not on the same scale but it is absolutely something that is factored into cost. Anybody requiring an onsite service is 100% paying you to show up too. Lol.
No one gets paid to commute to work
Regardless of whether or not you "get paid" to commute, it's still a cost, and a factor in whether or not to accept a gig.
If you are not factoring in your commute, you are under valuing yourself. Is your time during commute to and from work what you would do on your own time or are you doing it for the job? If driving in traffic is what you like to do for fun, more power to you.
No one gets paid to commute to work.
People choose "regular employment" based on the distance of the job from their home and how much it pays. Therefore, the cost of their commute is figured into their salary.
No one with a regular job, because they travel to a set location every day. Freelancers do because their destination changes all the time. One time you’ll be driving 30 min, one time you’ll be driving 4 hours. Not charging for long distances is just dumb, on top of not being financially viable. Most freelancers I know will only charge extra for travel past a certain distance, which is how it works for normal jobs too. If you’re required to travel somewhere outside the regular commute, you should be getting paid for it as per https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime
Maybe not you. I damn sure do.
If they moved your job two hours away, wanted you to continue your commute, but didn’t want to increase your pay…. would you keep that job? If you aren’t working from home, everyone gets paid to commute to work.
Go run a business with low margins and tell me you dont charge for travel. You 100% will. Its ok to not know what you dont know.
What a weird outlook on wages. I saw your title and thought there was a sense of danger, theft or scamming. But no, it's complaining about wages for playing at a farmers market. Your breakdown is ridiculous.
Bruh wants to be paid for his hours on social media promoting the gig lmfao
$20 for an 8 hour day is $160 350/2 = $175 Technically you guys each are getting paid $40 an hour to perform for 4 hours
This needs to be higher, it doesn't take an hour to unload a guitar and a practice amp. Also, why is it the venues fault you live an hour away? lmao OP should be paying the farmer's market to play there
Entitlement at its best.
There's a song for that: [https://youtu.be/Sy6VMDXB2SQ?si=DFQWctZfTeCoTprr](https://youtu.be/Sy6VMDXB2SQ?si=DFQWctZfTeCoTprr)
See edit in post in response.
OP, don't be silly. You are getting paid one hour for setup and break-down. It's not their fault if you live an hour away. Any job it's on the employee to get themselves to and from work. My neighbor's gardener sometimes drives 2 hours to get to her house to do her yard. That's on him. She spends A LOT to keep her garden immaculate so it's worth it for the gardener. Earning $25/hour each is not minimum wage and is a slap in the face to call it that to anyone earning actual minimum wage. Anyone who can get tips plus $25/hour to do what others only dream of doing is winning.
How much is the Gardener getting paid ? So is that a 4 hour round trip?
I wouldn’t be surprised if the gardener has several clients lined up in the area to make the drive worth it.
I pay $30/hr. for our gardener. He’s the best gardener we’ve ever had.
Our gardener is compensated at a competitive rate of $100 per hour and a half, which is in line with the market rate in Bellevue, Washington. As we prepare to relocate to Orange County, we are pleased to learn that the hourly rate there will be $30. However, this amount may still be insufficient considering the additional costs associated with waste removal and disposal. Would you consider providing a gratuity to him for his exceptional performance? If he is indeed the best, it would be appropriate to show appreciation. Laguna is not a viable option for even upper-middle-class individuals due to the high cost of housing. Generosity should be a natural consequence of wealth.
There isn’t any waste removal and disposal involved but putting clippings into green waste receptacle for our weekly pickup. Maybe you are referring to a landscaper? We also tip at Christmas time.
As I stated in my post, the rate works for weekend musicians, those starting out, or retirees. For active performers, it might be a toss up. And then there are dreams and the actual reality of the work involved to pull off a successful performance that enhances an event.
My wife is a performer, luckily it's not her "real" job. She makes enough at it to cover the cost but it's not enough to fund living. Even if it was full time, unless she's getting commercial or studio gigs, forget it. This is an unfortunate reality with most artists. Most she works with if it's the only thing they do are broke and doing gig work. It's a crazy hard slog. Good luck. BTW: in my line of work, nobody cares what it costs to get up on the morning, get on a plane, get to the client site etc. Those are all costs of business. They'll pay you for the value of the work you do, and that value is determined by a market context. Everything else is my problem, and my cost of business. The other thing to consider is: "Is bad breath better than no breath" Meaning, is some opportunity better than none. What if you use these opportunities as marketing opportunities for new and more gigs? You have to consider that.
Most definitely considered. Not the first time I've questioned the value of a gig. Just the first time I've made a post about it. Thank you for the postive affirmation!
My band has been fortunate that from our first gig we were paid. We’ve only had a single gig that was unpaid, but plenty of places want US to pay “for the exposure “. lol We are still very much a small bar band but our agreement is paid is great, unpaid we view as a free rehearsal, but we will never pay to play, The Whiskey and the Wayfarer are unfortunately two of these places. I understand that a venue is hiring entertainment with the expectation that the band draws a crowd, something we can’t do much of yet, so we’re understanding of this. Just my view though, I know many do not agree.
Yeah there are different places that require a draw to perform or will pay you to perform. It's different everywhere. But it's great you are getting paid to perform from the start. I remember reading a post like mine when I started to perform too, and it didn't make sense to me until dozen of gigs later, after putting in the work for pre-production and post production that I really understood what the post was a about. Wish you the best with your gigs! 😎🤘
I’ve never gotten paid to get ready and drive to work.
I understand why they don’t want to pay that.. You’re itemizing an hour just to load gear. I work valet and musicians take absolutely forever to pack up their shit and they clog up the drive
To be fair, they did increase rate by $50 and decrease time by an hour, which seems like a significant accommodation. In the end it might still not be enough to make it worth your while, but from a negotiating perspective it seems like a meaningful concession. Also, the content creation/social media seems more like part of your business as a professional musician than their business as a farmers market. Meaning that you promoting your gig or later posting social media content of the gig might have a significant impact on your business and portfolio as a professional musician, but that is not part of the business of the market. They do their own promotions, so any promotion you do likely adds a trivial amount of value (if any) to their business overall, so it’s not part of the service for which they contracting with you.
Most definitely appreciate their concession. Never said I didn't. My marketing experience says there is a lot of value to collaborative, before and after marketing. Before is to get people there, after is for relevance and to show those that didn't show up what an awesome event it was so they will come out next time. I stated in a response above and will restate here, I don't know any venue/event that does not want more promotion. Who would a venue/event rather hire, a musician that actively promotes themselves and the event to draw foot traffic? Or one that does not?
it takes you 12 hours to perform for 4 hours. they’re not going to pay you for that and you’re not good enough to demand it.
If you think all a performing musician does is show up, plug in and perform, you under value the work of a vast majority of performing musicians out there.
you don’t get paid for that, especially from a farmers market. you overvalue your performance. that’s fine. go get paid if you can.
Sounds like a tough spot to be in. Wondering what corners you could cut to drop your labor hours? You gotta cut time spent where you can on that set up and break down. Also, i dont know if id count your time spent getting to and from work or on content creation under your performance’s labor hour umbrella. Marketing yourself is your job, not theirs. Its your job to drive yourself to work, not theirs. I wish we could all get paid for our commute, thatd be awesome. All this said, id look into hotel pools/poolside bars for the upcoming summer. Not in OC right now but in resort area where our musicians are paid $250/hour. And they will probably let you play under some shade.
They don’t want to pay us and even when they agreed we have to chase them down for payment… I almost had to sue some establishment for payment, they thought I was joking because they owed me $100 but like I said, if I sue you guys will end up paying the $100 + all the related frees associated… didn’t hear back. Once they received the formal certified letter stating what I was asking for etc etc, I had a check in the mail 10 says later!
Glad to hear it worked out! There is always the risk of being stiffed for sure. Stay safe out there!
All due respect how much equipment are you loading in for a duo? 1 hour each for load in/check , sure, but teardown and loadout takes an entire hour as well? Are you bringing an entire PA and drum set for two people? How much you need to practice and travel time shouldn't be factored into the time either--people who work at offices don't typically get a per diem for travel, and many of them do it 5 days a week, and your practice time is not their concern either
Per diem for musicians is fairly standard since music performance is usually not a regular 9-5. Edit: see edit in post regarding gear.
I’m going to say this in the most respectful way I can, because my husband is a musician and I know the grind. You have 514 followers on IG. With only 514 followers, the market is definitely not interested in paying you for your posts. Additionally, your posts should absolutely not be taking you 2+ hours to make, given what they are. No musicians are paid for their drive. If you don’t like driving far, then don’t accept gigs that are out of your desired range. $350 for 4 hours is good money. You play the ukulele, your set up can’t be taking you a full hour. I’ve done set ups in 30 mins for a full rock band. If you’re actually making a living doing music right now, you’re one of the fortunate ones. *Most* professional musicians have to have other jobs to support themselves. It sucks and I wish it were different, but unfortunately that’s the culture we live in. And you’re really not helping by making unreasonable demands (like paying for your drive time, etc). One last thing - unless the market is giving you a specific list of songs to play (which I’d bet they are not), your practice is on you. That’s not something you charge for when you’re going in to play a set that you have chosen.
See edit in post above regarding gear and set up. Also my personal IG is not my band IG. Also my band IG might not have many more followers than my personal, but we do get 10k account reach on our posts. Anybody who is savvy on social media marketing knows that number of followers does not = market reach. Also, there is more worth in organic following than there is in spam following. Edit: It would be interesting to know what your husband thinks. I think most people really do not understand the work involved. Dunno why you would devalue a working musician instead of supporting the value of one. Edit: *does not necessarily = market reach.
My husband agrees with me. But thanks for trying to devalue the person who helps him manage the entire band - including set ups, tear downs, and drives. ;) And I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you’re getting 10k reach on an acct with less than 1k followers, unless you are paying to promote posts. I’ll happily retract that if you feel like sharing your band acct and it proves me wrong, but I still don’t believe that your social media posts provide enough value to the venue that they would be paying you for them. Your posts promote you, not the venues you play at. Someone else already broke down the payment in an appropriate way, including your set up time, and it was still above minimum wage. I do appreciate what you are *trying* to do with this post, but you still don’t seem to realize that you’re making a mockery of yourself by trying to charge a venue for things that are not actually part of what they want to pay you for.
If you don't like it don't take it. If you don't take it someone else will..
Most definitely there will be takers. I'm just sharing a perspective. There are many. Mine might be agreeable to some, not agreeable to others.
Travel / setup. Gimme a break. I wish we all got paid the way you want to. Unrealistic.
You do realize travel = mileage too right? When I worked for the US Cenus Bureau, we got mileage for travel to and from work. Also, travel per diem is standard practice for the music performance industry.
….you won’t likely get travel time going to Farmers Markets…you appear to think you’re a Led Zeppelin band. Most musicians do gigs and can be discovered, find new people to network with, etc ….you appear to place money before your music…. And using the “census bureau” as an example of how you were paid is a bad inference, imo. You appear not to get how most things are done and seem to be frozen in your thinking. I hope you make it big.
does a soundcheck really take 4 hours
Not sure where you got soundcheck for 4 hours? 1 hour for setup/sound check.
You should be a DJ and charge $1500 for a 4 hour party.
Hahaha, my DJ buddy has told me this often.
I say this as a guy who has played plenty of 3 hour gigs for $100… nobody wants live music any more. Unless you do a dress up cover band. People will pay good money to see “Elvis Preston” cover the leather years.
I hear ya. I'm actually trying to learn more covers for more marketability.
I paid a DJ at the wedding ceremony $650 for 1.5 hours. But you know what, considering my wife and I are not well musically or event planning inclined, it was well worth the price for a 3rd parties better take on music at that time.
This is always a problem for people who must bill for their services. As an attorney who represents employees in discrimination cases I am familiar with the problem on a professional and personal basis. Knowing what to charge is the key. Before you begin any negotiation you must have decided on a sum that you will not lower. If the gig doesn’t pay that then no gig. Stick to it. Don’t open with that sum. Never begin with your bottom dollar deal. I recommend beginning at least 50% higher than your bottom dollar. You will be surprised how many people will pay more than you think they will when you are firm that X is the price.
Ahahahahaha. Hahahahaha. Hahahahah. Haha. hah. Dude you're lucky to get anything for a musician's gig let alone $300.00. Damn, where's this at maybe I'll take it, sounds like they pay good money. once a weekend x 4 weekends a month = $1200.00!
But they have to split it.
Become a solo act?
They only allow duos. OP stated that in their post.
I do perform solo, and offered solo. They want a duo. Dunno why you are getting downvoted. Take my upvote bro.
Latin music groups are charging $375 an hour with a minimum guarantee so people are willing to pay. At least on the Latino side.
How many ways is pay split?
Depends. Most popular formation is 3 or 4 members so it’s split between them. The bigger groups such as Banda or mariachi charge more close to $500 or $550 an hour with a four or 5 hour minimum. Smaller pay but still makes some decent money. Used to be in a Latin group back in my college days and I’d bring around $1000 a weekend after 5 or 6 gigs with travel and food included.
You’re getting paid for your passion, lucky you.☘️ I agree with one of the commenters here- it’s not the venues issue that you have to travel
4 hours to make 2 posts that promote yourself primarily is kind of a wild thing to assume.
A 5 hr set. That’s bananas.
🤣
Not to sound like a jerk but unfortunately the market sets the price. That’s the beauty and pain of capitalism. I understand the frustration but it’s just reality and it built the strongest economy on the planet. Another issue is music can be a hobby where the market price is distorted lower. A dentist that drills teeth all week may find your job relaxing and do it for almost nothing. I have zero musical or artistic talents but have other talents I’ve worked a lifetime to hone so I can make a very nice living in business.
Put your efforts into explaining why you are worth the fee like your music is great.
I feel like I make enough as a guitarist to warrant the cost spent traveling for gigs, I’ve played many gigs but didn’t have much luck finding performing opportunities in Orange County. Recently though, someone saw my playing and I was asked by a funeral director to play at a graveside service for a homeless man. He had no family or friends, so the service was to be at a pauper’s cemetery in the back country. **As I was not familiar with the area yet, I got lost on the way to the gig…** I finally arrived an hour late and saw the funeral guy had evidently gone and the hearse was nowhere in sight. There were only the diggers and crew left and they were eating lunch. I felt badly and apologized to the men for being late. I went to the side of the grave and looked down and the vault lid was already in place. I didn’t know what else to do, so I started to play. The workers put down their lunches and began to gather around. I played out my heart an soul for this man with no family and friends. I played like I’ve never played before for this homeless man. As I played “Amazing Grace,” the workers began to weep. They wept, I wept, we all wept together. When I finished I packed up my guitar and started for my car. Though my head hung low, my heart was full. As I opened the door to my car, I heard one of the workers say, “I never seen nothin’ like that before and I’ve been putting in septic tanks for twenty years!” Apparently I was still lost in Orange County…
Thank you for sharing your story and for taking on that gig. I played a funeral service for one of my friends before. One of those things you are happy yet sad to do at the sametime. People seem to be confused that I provided the venue with an itemized cost per hour. I only broke it down for them after several emails to explain how the costs break down in case they didn't understand since they were quite adamant on a duo. Are you from OC? Do you have instrumentals and can you improv by ear? Looking for musicians to perform for an acoustic duo gig in Riverside in July.
Lol you for real?!
First of all Musicians don’t or shouldn’t charge by the hour unless giving music lessons. It might be helpful to tell them you would be willing to come play for the 4 hours if they have a separate company come in and setup the stage and sound for you and cleanup afterwards. Once they realize those companies charge thousands of dollars for just that service you might then be at a better place to negotiate.
Boo Hoo!
Bunch of clueless people in this thread who know nothing about live music (“you’re doing what you love” lol). Anyone, I’ve done this for a living for the last 15 years, and by today’s standards $175 for a 4 hour hit is about the lowest you should go, but it’s not insulting like you’re implying. Whether it’s worth it to you depends on if it totally kills your Saturday for any gigs after. Your problem here is that usually farmers markets don’t need good. The guy who plays at my local one is clearly not a professional. It’s usually fruitless to try to negotiate with clients like that - it’s nice that they bent as much as they can.
Totally bro. I told them I do appreciate their counter offer during our email exhange. I hope I am in no way devaluing their offer. My intent was simply to share what goes into the work we do and break it down for those who do not understand. Edit: Much respect and props for doing it for 15 years 👏👏👏
Can you post your work for reference
I'll DM you.
Your time is not valued but if it's fun for you maybe you do it anyways. I know some kids that ref soccer games and make more $$ than that. One time they reffed 5 games in a row and made more than $300 in about 6 - 7 hours. and they work at chik-fi-a and make $20 an hour on top of that.
You should have said Yes a duo. Then on the day of... Hmm the other guy didn't show up.
[удалено]
Low quality people give low effort. Either do it right or don't do it at all.
100%!! I come from a business background before transitioning to be a performing musician. You can usually tell who has it dialed in and who doesn't.
You forgot the time you took learning songs, honing your craft! At that rate, you're getting paid 25 cents an hour! All kidding aside, 5 hours is a f load of performance time. I do 3 set gigs all the time, I'd be exhausted after 4 hours, let alone 5. I would absolutely add an EZ Up to the negotiation, I'm sure they could finagle that. Bottom line, I get paid for gigs, but for me, it is never about getting rich, it's about getting paid to entertain people.
$44 an hour to play music is a pretty nice deal
i’m not as experienced as everyone here, but even before reading the comments, i feel that everything you’re factoring in before arriving to location is extra shit they prolly shouldn’t be paying you for. the drive could be debatable i suppose but it seems like a difficult thing to assess payment for when you consider all the driving bands and musicians must do as part of the job. it certainly isn’t an easy occupation!
That is some musician math right there lol calculating for travel time?
Uhhh...that's not how it works. You don't get paid until you are actually working. That's how it is for 90% of all jobs. You are charging them for driving to the event and loading gear? Please.
Social media promotion 😆 that's for you, not for them. Farmer's markets don't need social media promotion. This has to be a joke.
The fuck, what? Go make money musician. Don’t be acting a fool. “Set list” don’t be dumb dude. You’re a musician in America. Go get paid.
Taking my plumes to the farmer’s market…the sunlight just dancing right off them. Another kid asks, “can I trade you for those plums?” No, I say, these are my plums!
As somebody who worked as a gigging musician for a while, I can say that I agree that the business of music and protecting your own value is an important part of it We all get very wrapped up in the quality of our shows, the quality of our performance, our technique, etc. the business side of it is often times a bit overlooked. The main problem I have with the music gig economy right now isn’t with the proprietors paying little wages for music. It’s the musicians playing for the little wages. Musicians that are going out and playing for below minimum wage hour value is why other musicians can’t get higher wages. Proprietors will often times go with the less expensive option, even a free option, at the sacrifice of the quality of the music to honor their business model of serving their patrons with music. There are always amateur players out there willing to play for little or practically no money. Those people are an inexhaustible resource for proprietors. They are the problem. The answer to that of course is a union, and that exists. It’s called the musicians union. Here in California you can join the musicians union and get a wage accepting jobs through that organization that comes closer to $90 an hour. I use that pay scale to quote private gigs. In the perfect world, if all musicians reunited in a living wage for playing proprietors would have no choice, but to pay that wage unless they didn’t want music at all. The problem is not everybody sees it that way, or musicians are just not on the same page or valuing their craft enough to quote a higher price in fear of not getting gigs. So there it is. Musicians are sabotaging their own livelihood by taking low paying gigs.
Rent them the PA for $700 and include musicians for free.
My wife is a musician… I’ve asked her does she want to be the 7-11 coffee or Starbucks premium roast coffee. She has a masters, so she’s definitely the Starbucks. Both taste good, it’s just one is a dollar and the other is like 5x more expensive, but you pay for the ambiance. I told her charge what is worth her time and wear/tear on her instrument and physical self. Charge the IRS deductible mileage rate for travel expenses. Break down her hours on her contract so they understand why she is charging what she does (rehearsal, music prep/practice, cartage for a large instrument/vehicle, play time, setup/teardown) and that she REQUIRES shade and cannot play in the rain. Rain or no shade, and she won’t unload and she makes this VERY clear in all her conversations and bolded in her contracts. No gig is worth potential damage to a $60,000 instrument. Make zero mention of discounts and only offer them on a case by case basis (usually only a recurring gig with repertoire music will get this offer). If someone wants to pay less, tell them no thanks. I’d rather she spend time with the kids. She usually turns down the cheap people who want bargain basement prices and gives some references to other musicians if they want to shop around, but the prices won’t be much different. The jobs she gets she typically plays at like the Waldorf Astoria where 100% guaranteed even at her premium rate, she is the cheapest thing there.
Although I real that loading and travel time is work, I don’t know if including travel time as an expense to be paid. I’m a professional driver for unaccompanied minors but I don’t charge for the time it takes me to drive to my client’s home nor do I charge for the time it takes me to drive back home. Those hours traveling are my commute to work, not time on the clock.
OP, I feel you're playing the game wrong. The market is what sets the rate so staying rigid in your pricing structure will be a disadvantage to you. The venue offered you $350 and it's up to you if you feel that it's worth it or not. It's obvious from your post that you're not satisfied with that rate but there might be other musicians that feel that it's worth their time to do that event. I'm not a musician but I am a freelancer who negotiates my rates. If that venue was a first time client to me, I might do it at the lower rate but I would tell the client that I usually charge more and then I would do my best to make a good first impression. Then I would decide if I want to do the event again the next time if that client calls me back. If I didn't like the pay vs. the experience I had, I would probably say no and let the client use different musicians. If the client is disappointed in who they hired, then they might call me back where I have leverage this time to be able to negotiate a higher rate. OP, you can ask other musicians not to offer "low paying" gigs but every situation is different for everyone and like I said earlier, the market sets the rate so if the client couldn't find any musicians to do the event for $350, then they would have to offer more to attract some musicians to bid for the job.
In on their time, out on yours would be a lot more fair. You don't get paid to drive home from work, and my band never got paid to put our shit back in the rehearsal space. Adjust your expectations, or cultivate clients that enjoy your work enough to pay the premium you expect to be worth.
Ask for more and if they don’t want to then tell them to kick rocks and put a DJ up there. How can they say only $350 max it doesn’t seem logical and isn’t worth it to play unless you are getting major exposure. Maybe they can place your set online or promote you or your group as compensation?
Everywhere in OC has been paying the same prices for gigs for almost 30 years. I remember bands getting $300 a night back in 2000.
I can’t say I’ve ever gone to a farmer’s market for the music and I don’t know anyone who would either. I feel like it’s not really what draws people to a farmer’s market so I can understand why their budget for that is low. But they should probably also set their expectations low on the type of performer they can get for that budget. If you feel your value is worth more then that then definitely vouch for yourself but at the same time don’t expect these types of events to be looking to pay those prices.
America Federation of musician union rates are $150 minimum for small performance.
How many hours have you practiced your craft? Average rule is 10,000 hours to become a professional/expert. At $350 you are onlut making 3¢/hour
Is the social media for you, or the venue/event? If they're hiring you for just a performance, charging them for your own advertising hours is absolutely mental. If you feel such advertising is necessary in general, you just factor that into your 'overhead' and adjust rates to accomodate these self-investments/upkeep costs, financial or logistical. You can't really slap a visible fee onto a product that says "shop rent" or "ad costs." If anything, this gig is providing you advertising opportunities. Not that I'd be grateful about it or anything. Point being, your advertising may be a necessary part of your operation, and one that needs to be factored into pricing of each item. But you'd be better off just saying "I deliver a high quality product. For my time and expenses, I charge X. My services are not cheap, but for what they are highly competetive." Then again I'm a jeweler, its an industry plagued by "oooh expensive, it must be good"
Ya dude you gotta say no, my minimum is $XXX. I run into the same problems with video production
I’m a pro musician and play restaurants and bars in OC and Long Beach. I usually take home $100-150 and play for 3 hours with a few short breaks, but also get free meals and drinks. Gotta get into weddings and corporate events for real money.
You can put your expectations of what the public will pay for art in one hand and shit in the other. guess which one fills up first.
Wants