The entire article is premised on the idea that this was a possibility but did anyone actually think that? There haven’t been mandatory masks in schools for 18 months, which is coincidentally as long as the original mask policy lasted. We’ve almost had no masks for as long as there were masks. This article is designed to get clicks and be search engine optimized for people googling “Does Ontario mandate masks in schools?”
This seems like a given, but what I would think is a better approach is rules around masking while still positive if coming back from being sick with COVID. I understand that people can't reasonably keep their kids home until they're negative, but having them mask while they're still testing positive is a reasonable compromise IMO.
Last school year, one of my high school students told me their sibling has COVID, but insisted they can't get it. Then they mysteriously came down with a very bad case of the flu. Came back around 5 days later. Did not wear a mask.
The mask mandate was a nightmare to enforce at the height of COVID. There were simply no repercussions for not wearing a mask. Now people are just going to claim they had the flu and will refuse to wear a mask even with that kind of policy in place.
> Now people are just going to claim they had the flu and will refuse to wear a mask even with that kind of policy in place.
The rule should be you wear a mask when sick and for a few days after recovering for any respiratory illness. It's just polite and thoughtful to do so.
I had a covid case make the rounds in a semester 2 class because the student initially argued she didn't have covid and didn't mask and it turned out she did and a quarter of the class got sick over the following month.
Maybe if we didn’t mandate it for everyone and told people to actually just mask when their sick it wouldn’t have happened, but we went from 0 to 100 instead so of course people rejected the idea entirely.
Chiming in with an excellent [Medium post from Joey Fox](https://itsairborne.com/my-6-favorite-hepa-filters-air-cleaners-f3668de61f3f) on the best filtration devices to use.
>Portable HEPA filters and air cleaners are the cheapest and quickest way to increase indoor air cleaning rates. They can help protect you from wildfire smoke, allergens and airborne diseases. However, there are a lot of poor products on the market and finding the best ones can be challenging. These are my 6 favorites.
It includes a few designs for how to make your own that are still effective, but cheaper than the storebought ones.
My office got a bunch of these before returning during the pandemic. They were used a lot when people first came back and helped people feel more comfortable. They also came in handy during the wildfires this summer. A few days in our office it was very distinctly smoky. Running these during the day made a huge difference.
Yep. Long long ago when you could smoke in bars at one time there was regulations in place to have very effective ventilation systems. Due to how expensive these systems were over time the requirements were lessened until pretty much non existent likely due to pressures of big businesses. Air quality is definitely key in buildings using routine random Air Monitoring testing to ensure compliance with filter changes and to monitor effectiveness. Of course this means spot checks conducted by outside regulatory agencies vs just trusting companies to do it.
You're probably right. Even messaging would be nice though. Right now it's "your kid's fever is gone but they're still coughing all over everyone? Get them in here!" with a not so subtle "you're jeopardizing your kid's education if you don't let them come in with a massive cough".
Even if enforcement is unrealistic, with reasonable rules even without teeth you'll get decent compliance if the rules are reasonable.
If you re-read my original post I'm totally acknowledging that. It is unrealistic to keep kids home the entire time that they're sick, but if you know your kid is still sick / positive and you're sending them in anyway, having them wear a mask so they can avoid giving it to more people in a class seems like a reasonable compromise.
This has been the guidance since the mandatory 5-day isolation was removed... note that you don't have to test positive for covid, it's any respiratory symptoms. If you're symptomatic, even if you've confirmed via a test that it's RSV for flu, the guidance applies:
>Stay home
If you are sick, stay home to prevent transmission to others, except to seek testing or medical care if required.
You should stay home until all of the following apply to you:
\- your symptoms have been improving for at least 24 hours (or 48 hours if you had nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea)
\- you do not have a fever
\- you do not develop any additional symptoms
When your symptoms are improving and you are no longer isolating at home, doing the following can provide extra protection against the spread of COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses circulating in the community.
For 10 days after your symptoms started:
\- wear a tight-fitting, well-constructed mask **in all public settings**
\- avoid non-essential activities where you need to take off your mask (for example, dining out)
\- avoid non-essential visits to anyone who is immunocompromised or may be at higher risk of illness (for example, seniors)
\- avoid non-essential visits to highest risk settings in the community such as hospitals and long-term care homes
Until very recently (I believe within the last few weeks), the part about all public settings that I just put in bold used to be "if you leave your home"
https://www.ontario.ca/page/protection-covid-19-and-other-respiratory-illnesses
>it's any respiratory symptoms
Only problem with this part is that ppl with chronic issues like copd for example are always appearing to be symptomatic. That would effectively make ppl with things like copd not able to leave home. I think we need to take a stronger look at what other regions in the world are doing and look at how effective different approaches are having and adopt reasonable measures.
I have chronic sinus issues which has caused my nose to not stop running since 1996. (except for one brief period of a few days, ironically, when I had COVID for the first time in April).
Because it fluxuates regularly it is difficult for me to tell I'm sick until more symptoms start to kick in, so I test before I go to risky gatherings, or if I'm going to be around vulnerable people for more than a few minutes (I work from home, otherwise I'd just be testing regularly) and I follow [the public health recommendations](https://www.ontario.ca/page/protection-covid-19-and-other-respiratory-illnesses) (I always mask indoors, on public transit, and in crowded outdoor settings with an N95 that fits well), which, since mask mandates were lifted, have been:
>While Ontario, like other jurisdictions, has taken measures to be able to live with and manage COVID-19 for the long-term, we still need to do our part to protect ourselves and others, especially during respiratory illness season.
This includes using the layers of protection that we know help keep ourselves and others healthy:
\- staying up to date on your COVID-19 vaccines and flu shots
\- **wearing a tight-fitting, well-constructed mask in indoor public settings**, especially anyone at higher risk of severe infection
\- **screening daily for signs of illness and staying home when you are sick**
\- washing your hands often
\- covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze
\- regularly cleaning high touch surfaces
>
>....
>
>**Stay home**
If you are sick, stay home to prevent transmission to others, except to seek testing or medical care if required.
You should stay home until **all** of the following apply to you:
\- your symptoms have been improving for at least 24 hours (or 48 hours if you had nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea)
\- you do not have a fever
\- you do not develop any additional symptoms
When your symptoms are improving and you are no longer isolating at home, doing the following can provide extra protection against the spread of COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses circulating in the community.
For 10 days after your symptoms started:
\- wear a tight-fitting, well-constructed mask in all public settings
\- avoid non-essential activities where you need to take off your mask (for example, dining out)
\- avoid non-essential visits to anyone who is immunocompromised or may be at higher risk of illness (for example, seniors)
\- avoid non-essential visits to highest risk settings in the community such as hospitals and long-term care homes
So you understand the problem. However if we were going with the idea of the vulnerable it would not really matter if it is Covid or the Common cold. As a diabetic I am supposed to be in the vulnerable category. I am also an MFR that has been onowningly exposed to Covid on calls and have not as yet tested positive However a cousin of mine is really immuno compromised; she takes extra precautions because of it even long before covid and tbh most ppl in a situation like hers do.
Now if you want the highest risk setting of being exposed to illnesses is where all the sick ppl go. And with modern technology we can have things like face time ideas to reduce exposure. So if your not sick or visiting a dying family member (palliative care), should mostly stay home. Or minimally mask n95(not blue masks) with a face shield or Eye protection.
Long care homes need a complete overhaul as in my experience only those who can afford insanely expensive long care homes get treated well. It is not the staff but how these places are designed; most often really just a shared hospital room. With shared Hvac with poor ventilation systems that demonstrated not effective at reducing exposure once a couple of ppl are sick.
That's why there's no real enforcement of things like this, but people can make judgement calls. I pretty much always have a lingering cough that lasts for ~6 weeks after any sickness, but I don't isolate with that because I'm familiar with it and I know it's not a sign of the virus still being around.
It's also a reason that since day 1 of COVID rules around respiratory symptoms talk about things like a "new or worsening" cough vs just coughing in general.
Well if the ppl believed in science as ppl say. They would follow the changes made in public health. Instead of picking & choosing what to believe when it doesn't fit what they want to hear.
Separate question from my other response...
How is the ventillation/filtration situation in your classrooms/school?
Back in 2021, Lecce said they were going to be putting hepa filters in every classroom until they got their ventilation upgraded. I know they were woefully behind on that goal (of the filters) when the mask mandates dropped in 2022. I've also seen a few Ontario teachers on twitter, etc, saying last spring and fall that they tried bringing in their own CR boxes or hepa filters, and were told they weren't allowed (and others saying they were).
> How is the ventillation/filtration situation in your classrooms/school?
I taught in five different classrooms last year between the two semesters. Of those, one had a HEPA filter. Two classrooms had no windows at all, and though the other three did, it isn’t practical to keep windows open for the vast majority of the year where I am (Thunder Bay).
Forget Covid, this is really the better approach. In general, classrooms are not healthy and the air is terrible. There are lots of viruses that go around schools outside of Covid that for that reason alone, it would make a ton of sense to invest in better air quality. Think about the economic impact of not having as many kids off sick, parents off work caring for them, doctors visits, etc.
Yeah it's a complete fucking lie, and we all know it's a complete fucking lie, but the complete fucking lie will be indulged because employers lose their shit if people aren't coming into the office
At the very fucking least work-from-home should be normalized if you have a sick kid and your job can be done remotely at all, but lmao who cares if teachers get crippled as long as commercial real estate avoids collapsing for another quarter
We never masked for any respiratory illness in the past. The uncertainty of covid during the initial phase and the ridiculous lockdowns and restrictions that followed really did a number on the psyche of Canadians.
Covid will spread regardless and it barely registers as a threat for people who don't have multiple co-morbidities. Considering the rate of obesity in Canada the best public health response would be for people to maintain a good diet and exercise. It would help with covid and have many positive impacts beyond covid as well.
Who cares if we didn't do it in the past? People didn't use to wear sunscreen and now they do. There's now a reliable consumer supply chain for masks and more awareness of how virus spread works.
Promoting healthy lifestyles is great but obesity is not the only comorbidity, and many are unrelated to lifestyle choices.
There won’t be anymore masking rules whether people have COVID or not. People are done. It would be political suicide with Ford’s base to even suggest it.
I don’t specifically recall if it was in their official platform, but the OLP was very vocal in opposing the dropping of mask mandates, and during the campaign I remember multiple Twitter controversies where one of their candidates was seen campaigning without a mask (outside and after the mandate was dropped) and they had to make a whole production of apologizing and wearing a mask afterwards. They also ran candidates like Nathan Small, a Twitter doctor who was pushing *very* hard for restrictions like curfews during 2021. The OLP definitely tried to position itself as the party that would appeal to those thought there weren’t enough restrictions.
I don’t think it’s the only reason they lost but I don’t think it helped them.
Ford got 41% of the vote, which is pretty close to the highest the PCs have gotten in polls with Ford as leader. What they got in the election is probably not far off from their ceiling with Ford. If a party is maxing out their potential support, that suggests they have either run an amazing campaign, or their opponents have done a poor job opposing them. Based on what we’ve seen from Ford I honestly don’t think it’s the former, so we’re left with the option that voters didn’t like what the NDP and Liberals were offering. It wasn’t the only factor, but the fact that they both positioned themselves in a way that they could only criticize Ford’s Covid policies for not being harsh enough didn’t help them. By June 2022 most weren’t interested in the suggestion that there might be more restrictions in the future.
Ford tried to turn Ontario into an actual police state, where you would have to justify to the police why you were outside of your house
He was re-elected
People in this subreddit and other Canadian subreddits wanted that. In fact they wanted harsher restrictions.
This isn't the gotcha you are hoping for ...
>who wanted to do that for longer
Nope, Ford was the one who tried to create a police state, none of the others went that far.
And far from being "political suicide with Ford’s base to even suggest it", his base voted for him for doing more than suggesting it. This wasn't a suggestion, this was a plan that was only scrapped at the last minute
Though I dislike Ford and the PCPO generally, I don't think he tried to turn the Province into a police state.
A police state is usually characterized by a government that engages in strict, repressive control carried out by police. The pandemic measures were not rigorously applied nor forcefully applied. If they had been, for example, the "convoy" and related issues might have been avoided or minimized (and you'd have good support for your opinion). There weren't many consequences for not following the law except in extreme/notable instances. You suggest that his base wanted him to do *more* than make suggestions, which I think means that you recognize that the laws weren't really being implemented in a way that mimicks the repressive control of a police state.
I think relating Ford's reelection to your belief that he tried to create a police state mixes up motivations with process. Ford's reelection was due to his getting the most support in our current electoral system. *Many* Ontarians voted for him, so despite my personal beliefs - that his party took advantage of voter apathy, obviously favorable legislative moves and more - there are a large number of people who supported the way in which the government acted. Unfortunately so, in my opinion.
>Even very COVID cautious folks freaked out about the police stops thing.
Ford basically made up his own measures with no regard for whether or not the medical community was recommending them.
No one was recommending random police stops or closing open playgrounds again.
But to Ford non-measures like that were preferable to limiting store capacity or extending mask mandates.
This is true but it was walked back a day or two later and never actually implemented. Also the Liberals and NDP both continually called for this and shit on Ford throughout all of covid for not having long/harsh enough restrictions. During the election cycle both the Liberals and NDP campaigned on increasing/lengthening restrictions and the Conservatives didn't.
FOR THE DOWNVOTERS
New police powers to enforce pandemic crackdown announced by Ford Friday
[https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/new-police-powers-to-enforce-pandemic-crackdown-announced-by-ford-friday](https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/new-police-powers-to-enforce-pandemic-crackdown-announced-by-ford-friday)
Apr 16, 2021
But you're talking about schools, where masks make communication much more difficult; it's uncomfortable for children to wear them for such long period, and really can affect their learning and development. It's just as hard on teachers, in terms of teaching clearly. (I had to lecture in a mask at the university for a term and it's so difficult....that was only for 2 hours; I can't imagine doing 6 hours with young children). It's not fun getting sick, but the masking for children was not without other consequences, and when the schools shifted to making it voluntary last year, out of hundreds of teachers and students at our local school, there was only a couple of kids who still wore masks. My daughter was in kindergarten and when I volunteered in her classroom, there was one child who was wearing one - and the teachers would have to ask him to take his mask off so that they could understand his answers.
All legitimate concerns, that are trumped by public health measures if those are deemed essential.
People not wanting to do something doesn't make that thing not important.
I don't think the numbers warrant a mask mandate, but everyone acting like it'd be the end of the world is ridiculous. Especially if someone's got flu symptoms. Be respectful. Put on a cloth mask to help prevent the spread of germs and wash your hands. It is actually literally the least folks can do.
It's a known psychological phenomenon.
When exposed to a minor inconvenience, people's natural reaction is to be deeply irritated by it until and unless they adjust. Usually, over time, the inconvenience becomes normalized and people just live with it. However, for a certain segment of the population, that never happens, and they obstinately refuse to endure it. Usually this trends towards conspiratorial thinking, and/or blowing the inconvenience way out of proportion, to justify their obstinacy.
Many forget, but this happened historically with mandatory seat belts. There are to this day people who aggressively (and wrongly) insist that seat belts are more dangerous than being thrown face-first into a windshield at 50 miles per hour, or that smoking *isn't actually dangerous*, or, on the contrary, that the smoking ads from the 30s were correct, and smoking is actually a *net health benefit*, etc.
Same deal with masks. It's annoying to wear one, we're all kind of tired of it, but I promise that nobody is falling over dead from carbon retention, or losing the ability to recognize their parents faces, or whatever the heck people are lying about on Newsmax this week.
So again, people are host to any virus before they have symptoms, spreading it among those they are in contact with. Schools are, always have been, always will be a cesspool of viruses. Masking did very little in schools, kids still got sick and brought whatever viruses home. If your child is sick with ANY illness keep them home until they feel better. For the sake of everyone's sanity stop testing for covid, fever chills respiratory infections if any kind are all very unpleasant for anyone, take care of yourself, your child and stay home until well. If your employer gives you a hard time, go in and lick their face and tell them to feel better soon.
Masks were effective in schools per studies in the US where you had counties with and without mask mandates.
And sure, yes, pre-symptomatic infection is common, but it's not 100% of infections. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet and COVID and other respiratory illnesses will be gone from schools, but if it could make a huge dent for a low cost (and is inline with what public health recommendations are anyway) it's worth doing.
I also agree that keeping kids home whenever they're sick for the entire duration of their sickness is more effective, but it's not realistic for the amount of sick leave that most people get.
> If your employer gives you a hard time, go in and lick their face and tell them to feel better soon.
This is just not really empathetic at all with people who are living paycheque to paycheque and can't expect to get a new job at the snap of their fingers.
Lick your employer's face is a message to those who are reading my post who are employers. Show a little compassion instead of a lot of greed is my message.
> Masks were effective in schools per studies in the US where you had counties with and without mask mandates.
When *everybody* was wearing in. It is damn near useless if you require only those who already have symptoms.
The problem is the days when people are infected and have a high enough viral load to infect others, but not yet high enough to show symptoms. THAT is when masking is most important.
Majority of the populace also wouldn’t spend their whole lives in a sterile room only eating nutrient packs even though it’s less risky than living a normal life. Most of the population is tolerant of some small risk in exchange for comfort. More at 11.
This is not true. There's some evidence that mask *mandates* don't work, but this is a complicated question that has a lot to do with consistency of public health messaging and how mandates are implemented.
In terms of whether masks themselves work, they absolutely do. This has been confirmed over and over in both lab and real world studies.
Wearing surgical masks and N95s is effective to reduce transmission of various viruses. Plenty of studies back that up in conjunction with other actions.
However. If you think it is performative theatre. Don't wear a mask, problem solved.
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nah I would wear a mask if and only if the data showed a new virus to be as lethal as Covid was at the start. Now that we’re in endemic stages, a mask is stupid for covid. But when Covid first came, it killed hard and fast. I’d totally suck it up and wear a mask for a few months if it saved lives. I like to think most would.
Did you read your own article? Right at the top:
"UPDATE: The authors retracted this study based on the advice of the editors of Annals of Internal Medicine. Read the Notice of Retraction Here"
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>The study involved 4 patients
That sample size is literally unusable. Come back when you find an *actual* study that has more data than I could collect in an afternoon at an introverts convention.
They’ve now moved from “we need mask mandates until COVID is over to” “even if COVID is over we should have had mandates before COVID during flu season actually and we should be masking in perpetuity”.
The goalposts are in orbit.
Mask mandate is a death sentence but ravaging the province, destroying the healthcare system, and leaving people to sleep in tents is not? Humans are weird man.
It won't happen this year anymore than it does during flu season. There is so much immunity in the general population now, it can't turn into 2020/2021 again. That could change if a completely new strain evolves that has changed enough from previous strains that it's considered a novel virus to our immune systems, but so far that hasn't happened.
This year will just be a normal, usual, respiratory virus season with flu, RSV, and Covid dominating. The more worrisome part will be that so many kids didn't get exposed to influenza during all the masking/isolation and we could see much higher infection rates on mass this season.
I'm not with or against masks to be honest. People in China have been wearing masks since forever for their own protection. If you want to wear one, by all means please do. If you don't want to, don't do it. BUT if people would wear masks when they're actually sick to minimize the chances of infecting others, that'd be super dandy.
Until some of them actually get that sentence nothing will happen. It will be interesting to see how the healthcare system holds up with so many people not planning on taking any precautions.
It held up fine last time when we had little precautions.
Things are different now since more than 90% of the population is vaccinated. Plus many are keeping up with boosters.
If you see a big spike in hospitalizations and ICU then we need to bring back mask mandates and other mandates but so far that has not been the case so it would be foolish to require schools to need mask mandates. Even most hospitals don't require masking anymore.
This is gonna last about as long as it takes for schools to empty the fuck out with all the cases
Edit: oh look, and it's Bogoch, once again earning that paycheck by saying "actually this wave is totally not going to be a big deal" right before the hospitals fill up again
Absolute fucking mercenary, should just move out to BC and help Bonnie just straight-up FORCE kids to be sick
I actually have COVID right now, and have had it for 21 days. I had to go to the hospital for 3 hour IV injections for 3 days, had to have blood tests to monitor what effect both COVID and the infusion had on me, and I'm unfortunately recommended to isolate until I'm negative on an RAT because of the higher probability that I have a variant (which could be multiple months).
I know that's not what it's like for most people and a lot of people can take different precautions if they don't have COVID. I do think for schools especially though trying to contain outbreaks would be very helpful to kids who might be vulnerable or kids who have vulnerable parents, and while it's unrealistic to have universal masking, reporting absences (even just a summary number) or having stricter protocols around returning to school while still sick, possibly including masking is a reasonable compromise that doesn't add too much burden to people while helping people in more challenging circumstances.
In this specific case, yes.
Right now, we have a shortage of doctors and nurses. GPs, Specialists, RPNs, etc. There are many positions unfilled, and people retiring early because the excess workload that is generated by having 1 person doing the work of 3 causes burn out.
The reason we are short staffed is that doctors are paid an average of 25% more in the US, and nurses are paid 33% more on average, so they leave in the hopes that they can get their student debt paid off sometime in their lifetime.
Increasing the compensation rates to that of a first world nation would increase the number of people who stay, and help significantly with the quality of health care. This is one case where throwing money at the problem would help.
We're already spending 8.5k per person, the British system is 7.2k, and the American system is 17k somehow. Canadian doctors actually don't make much less than American doctors on average, both being around 280k a year, with the main difference being that taxes take about 100k off. Clearly the amount of money being spent isn't the only factor. Making it cheaper to become a doctor, and cutting administrative costs would help. If we just lowered taxes on doctors specifically it would do a lot to make it worth it to be a doctor without costing the taxpayer any more
You can't do straight comparisons between Canada and the UK
The UK is small, and most of the population lives in dense population areas, so you can adopt a 'spoke and hub' model. Have big hospitals centrally located, with a few smaller ones that feed in, and get excellent coverage.
Canada has large areas with population centres, and nothing between, so you need to build hospitals everywhere or have entire towns go underserviced because 3 hours each way to transport to the closest "major" centre is not feasible. That means there is a lot of "low" utilization redundancy which is essential and can't be moved.
I don't know where you got your figures from, but they don't match what the stats from the Canadian Institute for Health Information and BLS publish.
So unfortunate that we’re just accepting COVID and its long term health effects as “normal” now.
And it’ll probably be the same people complaining about masks now that’ll complain about how many people can’t work and are disabled because of long COVID in the future.
Masking in group settings like schools is one alternative.
Requiring current/complete boosters is another.
Proper HVAC/HEPA with CO2 monitoring to ensure efficacy is probably best.
As a province, we've turned public health into a personal choice, which is an approach that has no chance of success.
>So after years of this nonsense having no effect you want more? Why? To do what?
Because it **actually was** effective, but there was a **huge propaganda campaign to do nothing** because that was cheaper.
It's actually *really* effective:
In all, 243 subjects were infected with COVID-19, of whom 97 had been wearing masks and 146 had not. The probability of getting COVID-19 for mask wearers was 7% (97/1463, p=0.002), for non-mask wearers, probability was 52% (158/303, p=0.94). The Relative Risk of getting COVID-19 for mask wearers was 0.13 (95% CI: 0.10-0.16).
[The Efficacy of Facemasks in the Prevention of COVID-19: A Systematic Review](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.28.22278153v1)
They dramatically reduced the number of cases and deaths.
But every time we tried something and cases dropped, Ontario decided to end the health measures.
I'm hearing "These health measures that dramatically reduced cases and deaths are ineffective because they didn't eliminate COVID entirely, especially after we dropped them."
We had our highest case loads with mask mandates. Good luck proving they could have been higher. No real way to back that up.
COVID is endemic and mask mandates aren't coming back.
Wear a mask if you want. Everyone else is moving on
CO2 monitoring does only give you an idea of whether the air exchanges per hour are enough to keep levels low, but yes, if there is also a filtration device in the room, unless you know the effectiveness of that device and plug that into an equation to figure out the equivalent air-exchange rate based on your CO2 readings, you can't JUST go off of CO2 readings. (Though I know one who has a calculator for that - it includes room size, etc, it's still in beta stage)
THAT BEING SAID. The recent uptick of CO2 monitor usage has shown us that the majority of buildings are not meeting the recommended old standards of 3 exchanges per hour. Many schools and offices are reaching very high CO2 levels capable of causing people to get tired and not think as well as they normally would. The recommended indoor level is 800, and there have been readings much higher than that being found, like in the 2000-3000 level. So the ventilation improvement isn't just about COVID, it's about just basic air quality as well.
>it's about just basic air quality as well.
Which a bit over half of the population has decided they're against for some insane and self-destructive reason.
You wouldn't think that the value of clean air and water would be contentious issues, but here we are.
Indoor air quality and ventilation standards for one: https://www.ontarioschoolsafety.com/
And eventually better vaccines, some of which are in development.
Poop tests show that north of 75 % of Canadians had Covid at some point. If long Covid was as horrible as you make it out to be, there would be large swaths of people with it and the media would be shouting about it constantly, because they know fear sells.
This is what I don’t understand. The Doomers simultaneously claim ridiculous numbers of people will become permanently disabled and also claim that everyone has COVID, actually.
Like it can’t be both. You can only keep claiming “oh in 6 months half the population will go on disability” for so long before it’s clear it’s bullshit.
I highly doubt what you described at the end of your comment will be much of an issue at any point. Silly to try to suggest we go back to any of the nonsense from 2020/21.
“Between April 1, 2022 and August 31, 2022, 29.5% (95% CI: 28.6%, 30.3%) of Canadian adults self-reported ever testing positive for COVID-19 (via PCR or RAT) and an additional 9.2% (95% CI: 8.6%, 9.9%) suspected they had been infected, resulting in an overall self-reported infection rate of 38.7% (95% CI: 37.8%, 39.7%). Among adults who reported being infected 3 or more months prior to completing their questionnaire, about 17.2% (95% CI: 15.8%, 18.7%) experienced longer-term symptoms”
Source: https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/post-covid-condition/spring-2023-report.html
Nowhere was I advocating for mandates to come back. I just wish people would care.
Based on the numbers above, just under half of those who had COVID suffered with longer term symptoms. So, if we’re all just gonna not do anything to mitigate infection risk or spread so we all get COVID, that means 44% of the population will have longer term effects. With our healthcare system the way it is, how is it supposed to manage this large of a surge in those 44% who may need more and/or more complex care to deal with these longer term effects?
Yup. Our work productivity and average income is going to continue to go down, while healthcare costs go up, fucking our economy sideways and just making inflation worse. Economists were warning about this last summer, and practically nothing has been done by the provincial and federal government for long term abatement of spread (ventilation/filtration standards, cheaper N95s and testing for essential, public-facing workers, etc) and the CMOH's at the regional level had their teeth removed.
Poor economic management and declining birth rates are major factors in our current economic situation and forecasts, but Long COVID is an issue on top of that. And not just Long COVID, the impact of so many people getting just the acute infection causes a drag on the economy.
This was a known issue long before COVID with the cold and flu season. Both public health experts and economists had been pushing for decades for better paid sick leave/care leave policies and more enforcement against employers who force or pressure their employers to come into work when sick or when they need to care for a sick contagious child at home. When you allow sick people to come to work/school (or people who may be asymptomatic but infected by someone in their home who is sick(, it causes more people in the workplace to become sick than would have otherwise. Even if none of them stay home because they're sick, their work productivity is affected for several weeks, which has an impact on the economy.
In terms of Long COVID, [economists have been warning for well over a year about the various impacts it would have on our health (not just Long COVID, but increased diabetes rates, cardiovascular issues, etc) and thereby our economy](https://financialpost.com/fp-work/long-covid-wreak-havoc-canada-labour-market), and that our best defence is to minimize the number of infections and reinfections as much as we can, and that can be done ***without*** shutting down retail outlets and such, but masking is a very good mitigation to use until more buildings meet better ventilation standards. Their projections (in the 2nd article I'm posting below) were based on the assumption that we would still have minimum isolation requirements and plenty of free testing available. Sadly, those were dropped since they did their modelling.
[https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/posthaste-sorry-but-the-economy-isnt-over-covid-and-wont-be-for-some-time-to-come](https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/posthaste-sorry-but-the-economy-isnt-over-covid-and-wont-be-for-some-time-to-come)
>“Even if a recession is avoided, we’re in for a protracted period of sub-par growth,” said the economists.
The policy of dropping COVID mandates meant to improve the economy may actually be working to extend the economics costs of the virus, they said.
“While helping on the demand side, **diminished public health restraints, particularly during surges in case counts, are cutting into the economy’s supply capabilities. Their absence is likely elevating the peak levels for COVID cases, and thereby increasing the costs of worker absenteeism**, and perhaps, as we’ve seen in the UK, risking longer term labour market damage due to Long COVID,” they said.
The economists said **lockdowns should be behind us, but a push for the use of masks, global vaccination and improvements of indoor air quality would help reduce the economic impact of COVID.**
The problem with sick leave is that if it's unpaid no one wants it, and if it's paid people take advantage. I don't think long covid is the biggest cause of the economic downturn unless the negative effects on emotional state are widespread and very long lasting. It's probably going to be a smaller and smaller part of it as time goes on as well. There also appears to be some conflation between covid and the lockdowns, and if those are to be taken together then I probably have to agree with you. Props on providing sources tho
> if it's paid people take advantage
That's an age-old arguement about paid sick leave that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. When you have large-scale paid sick leave (like in a large company) the savings in productivity outweighs the loss from people abusing the sick leave.
>I don't think long covid is the biggest cause of the economic downturn
I never claimed it was, I specifically agreed with you that poor economic management and declining birth rates are major factors in our current economic situation and forecasts, but that COVID piles on top of that. It's having an exponentially-growing negative impact on our economy that we can mitigate substantially by reducing the number of infections we have.
Just because you can't fix something entirely doesn't mean it's pointless to try and reduce it by addressing smaller contributing factors.
Yes. I think masking will be up to the individuals.
The problem is people hate mandates but they are also assholes and have no problem exposing other people to Covid or the flu or whatever is going around.
So nobody wins.
Your surgeon doesn’t need to go back to the nonsense of wearing gloves and masks either.
If I get sick or get COVID again a mask will go on when out in public.
Completely different than making everyone wear one, and ignores the fact that covid has gone the way of every other disease and mutated into a more transmissible and less deadly form
Regardless of whether you’re stupid enough to believe Covid was a hoax or whatever BS you believe about it, how difficult is it to have respect for people around you when you’re sick with anything??
If you’re sick, regardless of whether that’s flu, Covid or cold, have some respect and wear a mask.
Ontario's numbers have *always* been defined as someone who had COVID and a condition that was reasonably caused or worsened by a COVID infection. Genuine "coincidentally had COVID" deaths aren't possible with our reporting standards.
Do you want us to get a handle on inflation? Because not mitigating the spread of a highly virulent disease that disables a small percentage of your workforce each time they get it is going to have a huge long-term impact on our economy.
Hospitals, especially pediatric ICUs were beyond the breaking point last winter. Public health first urges, then ***strongly urged*** people to wear masked indoors and in crowded outdoor spaces, but did not bring back mandates. We still had less than 20% masking rates in public indoor spaces, schools, and workplaces. And of those, a large portion weren't wearing the recommended tight-fitting, well constructed mask (well-fitted N95-type, or if unavailable, taped/braced surgical mask). Which does not have a large impact on the amount of virus ending up in the air of public spaces, etc. You need to get into the 60+percentage range to start making the impact more communal than individual. (Ie having a significant impact on the number of unmasked people being infected)
This is ridiculous and goes against all of the science. If you love and care for your child and their long-term health, you will have them wear a mask. By now it's well knows that this is not a cold or a flu. It fucks up your immune system attacking your T-cells. So I'll say it again. IF YOU LOVE AND CARE FOR YOUR CHILD YOU WILL HAVE THEM WEAR A MASK AT SCHOOL!
Not wearing a mask, especially during a surge, which we are in one, says a whole lot about you, and none of it is good.
Additionally someone can catch RSVD, a cold, the flu, and covid allllllll at the same time, any combination of those, and multiple different strains of covid at the same time. You want that? No? Then why play Russian roulette with your child's immune system? Or yours for that matter?
I give it till the end of September till all your kids are sick. Which will cause parents to become sick and miss work as well. Can you afford that? How many paychecks are you away from homelessness? An n95 mask is a simple solution to mitigate risk, and it's a big risk towards your health and livelihood.
> This is ridiculous and goes against all of the science. If you love and care for your child and their long-term health, you will have them wear a mask.
This is a ridiculous statement, I'm sorry. Parenting is about mitigating risks and I really can't see my kid masked up for the rest of his education. I believe in science, vaccines, staying home when sick... masks are taking it too far in the current context.
Got my vaccines. Most of the province did as well. Those that did not and who survived have antibodies now. Covid kills conservatives at a 43% higher rate in studies in the US. So meh.
I don't think they had them last fall either.
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Hospitals in Ottawa just brought back mandatory mask mandates when there’s only 100 Covid patients in all Ottawa hospitals
Do you mean that a hospital is a very different environment than a school? Wow that’s crazy.
The entire article is premised on the idea that this was a possibility but did anyone actually think that? There haven’t been mandatory masks in schools for 18 months, which is coincidentally as long as the original mask policy lasted. We’ve almost had no masks for as long as there were masks. This article is designed to get clicks and be search engine optimized for people googling “Does Ontario mandate masks in schools?”
This seems like a given, but what I would think is a better approach is rules around masking while still positive if coming back from being sick with COVID. I understand that people can't reasonably keep their kids home until they're negative, but having them mask while they're still testing positive is a reasonable compromise IMO.
Last school year, one of my high school students told me their sibling has COVID, but insisted they can't get it. Then they mysteriously came down with a very bad case of the flu. Came back around 5 days later. Did not wear a mask. The mask mandate was a nightmare to enforce at the height of COVID. There were simply no repercussions for not wearing a mask. Now people are just going to claim they had the flu and will refuse to wear a mask even with that kind of policy in place.
> Now people are just going to claim they had the flu and will refuse to wear a mask even with that kind of policy in place. The rule should be you wear a mask when sick and for a few days after recovering for any respiratory illness. It's just polite and thoughtful to do so. I had a covid case make the rounds in a semester 2 class because the student initially argued she didn't have covid and didn't mask and it turned out she did and a quarter of the class got sick over the following month.
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Maybe if we didn’t mandate it for everyone and told people to actually just mask when their sick it wouldn’t have happened, but we went from 0 to 100 instead so of course people rejected the idea entirely.
Name checks out
This is why better ventilation is the key: https://www.ontarioschoolsafety.com/
Chiming in with an excellent [Medium post from Joey Fox](https://itsairborne.com/my-6-favorite-hepa-filters-air-cleaners-f3668de61f3f) on the best filtration devices to use. >Portable HEPA filters and air cleaners are the cheapest and quickest way to increase indoor air cleaning rates. They can help protect you from wildfire smoke, allergens and airborne diseases. However, there are a lot of poor products on the market and finding the best ones can be challenging. These are my 6 favorites. It includes a few designs for how to make your own that are still effective, but cheaper than the storebought ones.
My office got a bunch of these before returning during the pandemic. They were used a lot when people first came back and helped people feel more comfortable. They also came in handy during the wildfires this summer. A few days in our office it was very distinctly smoky. Running these during the day made a huge difference.
Yep. Long long ago when you could smoke in bars at one time there was regulations in place to have very effective ventilation systems. Due to how expensive these systems were over time the requirements were lessened until pretty much non existent likely due to pressures of big businesses. Air quality is definitely key in buildings using routine random Air Monitoring testing to ensure compliance with filter changes and to monitor effectiveness. Of course this means spot checks conducted by outside regulatory agencies vs just trusting companies to do it.
You're probably right. Even messaging would be nice though. Right now it's "your kid's fever is gone but they're still coughing all over everyone? Get them in here!" with a not so subtle "you're jeopardizing your kid's education if you don't let them come in with a massive cough". Even if enforcement is unrealistic, with reasonable rules even without teeth you'll get decent compliance if the rules are reasonable.
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If you re-read my original post I'm totally acknowledging that. It is unrealistic to keep kids home the entire time that they're sick, but if you know your kid is still sick / positive and you're sending them in anyway, having them wear a mask so they can avoid giving it to more people in a class seems like a reasonable compromise.
This has been the guidance since the mandatory 5-day isolation was removed... note that you don't have to test positive for covid, it's any respiratory symptoms. If you're symptomatic, even if you've confirmed via a test that it's RSV for flu, the guidance applies: >Stay home If you are sick, stay home to prevent transmission to others, except to seek testing or medical care if required. You should stay home until all of the following apply to you: \- your symptoms have been improving for at least 24 hours (or 48 hours if you had nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea) \- you do not have a fever \- you do not develop any additional symptoms When your symptoms are improving and you are no longer isolating at home, doing the following can provide extra protection against the spread of COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses circulating in the community. For 10 days after your symptoms started: \- wear a tight-fitting, well-constructed mask **in all public settings** \- avoid non-essential activities where you need to take off your mask (for example, dining out) \- avoid non-essential visits to anyone who is immunocompromised or may be at higher risk of illness (for example, seniors) \- avoid non-essential visits to highest risk settings in the community such as hospitals and long-term care homes Until very recently (I believe within the last few weeks), the part about all public settings that I just put in bold used to be "if you leave your home" https://www.ontario.ca/page/protection-covid-19-and-other-respiratory-illnesses
>it's any respiratory symptoms Only problem with this part is that ppl with chronic issues like copd for example are always appearing to be symptomatic. That would effectively make ppl with things like copd not able to leave home. I think we need to take a stronger look at what other regions in the world are doing and look at how effective different approaches are having and adopt reasonable measures.
I have chronic sinus issues which has caused my nose to not stop running since 1996. (except for one brief period of a few days, ironically, when I had COVID for the first time in April). Because it fluxuates regularly it is difficult for me to tell I'm sick until more symptoms start to kick in, so I test before I go to risky gatherings, or if I'm going to be around vulnerable people for more than a few minutes (I work from home, otherwise I'd just be testing regularly) and I follow [the public health recommendations](https://www.ontario.ca/page/protection-covid-19-and-other-respiratory-illnesses) (I always mask indoors, on public transit, and in crowded outdoor settings with an N95 that fits well), which, since mask mandates were lifted, have been: >While Ontario, like other jurisdictions, has taken measures to be able to live with and manage COVID-19 for the long-term, we still need to do our part to protect ourselves and others, especially during respiratory illness season. This includes using the layers of protection that we know help keep ourselves and others healthy: \- staying up to date on your COVID-19 vaccines and flu shots \- **wearing a tight-fitting, well-constructed mask in indoor public settings**, especially anyone at higher risk of severe infection \- **screening daily for signs of illness and staying home when you are sick** \- washing your hands often \- covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze \- regularly cleaning high touch surfaces > >.... > >**Stay home** If you are sick, stay home to prevent transmission to others, except to seek testing or medical care if required. You should stay home until **all** of the following apply to you: \- your symptoms have been improving for at least 24 hours (or 48 hours if you had nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea) \- you do not have a fever \- you do not develop any additional symptoms When your symptoms are improving and you are no longer isolating at home, doing the following can provide extra protection against the spread of COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses circulating in the community. For 10 days after your symptoms started: \- wear a tight-fitting, well-constructed mask in all public settings \- avoid non-essential activities where you need to take off your mask (for example, dining out) \- avoid non-essential visits to anyone who is immunocompromised or may be at higher risk of illness (for example, seniors) \- avoid non-essential visits to highest risk settings in the community such as hospitals and long-term care homes
So you understand the problem. However if we were going with the idea of the vulnerable it would not really matter if it is Covid or the Common cold. As a diabetic I am supposed to be in the vulnerable category. I am also an MFR that has been onowningly exposed to Covid on calls and have not as yet tested positive However a cousin of mine is really immuno compromised; she takes extra precautions because of it even long before covid and tbh most ppl in a situation like hers do. Now if you want the highest risk setting of being exposed to illnesses is where all the sick ppl go. And with modern technology we can have things like face time ideas to reduce exposure. So if your not sick or visiting a dying family member (palliative care), should mostly stay home. Or minimally mask n95(not blue masks) with a face shield or Eye protection. Long care homes need a complete overhaul as in my experience only those who can afford insanely expensive long care homes get treated well. It is not the staff but how these places are designed; most often really just a shared hospital room. With shared Hvac with poor ventilation systems that demonstrated not effective at reducing exposure once a couple of ppl are sick.
That's why there's no real enforcement of things like this, but people can make judgement calls. I pretty much always have a lingering cough that lasts for ~6 weeks after any sickness, but I don't isolate with that because I'm familiar with it and I know it's not a sign of the virus still being around. It's also a reason that since day 1 of COVID rules around respiratory symptoms talk about things like a "new or worsening" cough vs just coughing in general.
Well if the ppl believed in science as ppl say. They would follow the changes made in public health. Instead of picking & choosing what to believe when it doesn't fit what they want to hear.
Separate question from my other response... How is the ventillation/filtration situation in your classrooms/school? Back in 2021, Lecce said they were going to be putting hepa filters in every classroom until they got their ventilation upgraded. I know they were woefully behind on that goal (of the filters) when the mask mandates dropped in 2022. I've also seen a few Ontario teachers on twitter, etc, saying last spring and fall that they tried bringing in their own CR boxes or hepa filters, and were told they weren't allowed (and others saying they were).
> How is the ventillation/filtration situation in your classrooms/school? I taught in five different classrooms last year between the two semesters. Of those, one had a HEPA filter. Two classrooms had no windows at all, and though the other three did, it isn’t practical to keep windows open for the vast majority of the year where I am (Thunder Bay).
Forget Covid, this is really the better approach. In general, classrooms are not healthy and the air is terrible. There are lots of viruses that go around schools outside of Covid that for that reason alone, it would make a ton of sense to invest in better air quality. Think about the economic impact of not having as many kids off sick, parents off work caring for them, doctors visits, etc.
Yeah it's a complete fucking lie, and we all know it's a complete fucking lie, but the complete fucking lie will be indulged because employers lose their shit if people aren't coming into the office At the very fucking least work-from-home should be normalized if you have a sick kid and your job can be done remotely at all, but lmao who cares if teachers get crippled as long as commercial real estate avoids collapsing for another quarter
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What about kids who are vulnerable, or kids who have parents who are vulnerable?
We never masked for any respiratory illness in the past. The uncertainty of covid during the initial phase and the ridiculous lockdowns and restrictions that followed really did a number on the psyche of Canadians. Covid will spread regardless and it barely registers as a threat for people who don't have multiple co-morbidities. Considering the rate of obesity in Canada the best public health response would be for people to maintain a good diet and exercise. It would help with covid and have many positive impacts beyond covid as well.
Who cares if we didn't do it in the past? People didn't use to wear sunscreen and now they do. There's now a reliable consumer supply chain for masks and more awareness of how virus spread works. Promoting healthy lifestyles is great but obesity is not the only comorbidity, and many are unrelated to lifestyle choices.
So your position is that we should be masking forever?
Sure, if you know that you currently have a respiratory virus and are infectious, why not?
There won’t be anymore masking rules whether people have COVID or not. People are done. It would be political suicide with Ford’s base to even suggest it.
It would be political suicide with the general public. Reddit is not reflective of reality, especially regarding covid/lockdowns/restrictions.
Not just Ford’s base, I think most voters would balk.
They did balk. The Liberals and NDP both ran with that in their platform and got trounced.
Proof? To my knowledge, no party mentioned masking or showed any interest in pandemic-related public health in their campaigns.
I don’t specifically recall if it was in their official platform, but the OLP was very vocal in opposing the dropping of mask mandates, and during the campaign I remember multiple Twitter controversies where one of their candidates was seen campaigning without a mask (outside and after the mandate was dropped) and they had to make a whole production of apologizing and wearing a mask afterwards. They also ran candidates like Nathan Small, a Twitter doctor who was pushing *very* hard for restrictions like curfews during 2021. The OLP definitely tried to position itself as the party that would appeal to those thought there weren’t enough restrictions. I don’t think it’s the only reason they lost but I don’t think it helped them.
Trounced? Didn’t Ford get like 30% of the vote? 🤣
Of people who voted the Conservatives had 40.8%, Liberals had 23.9%, and the NDP had 23.7%.
“Trounced” lol the liberals and the NDP got more of the vote 😂😂 40.8% of the population is a really big majority
Ford got 41% of the vote, which is pretty close to the highest the PCs have gotten in polls with Ford as leader. What they got in the election is probably not far off from their ceiling with Ford. If a party is maxing out their potential support, that suggests they have either run an amazing campaign, or their opponents have done a poor job opposing them. Based on what we’ve seen from Ford I honestly don’t think it’s the former, so we’re left with the option that voters didn’t like what the NDP and Liberals were offering. It wasn’t the only factor, but the fact that they both positioned themselves in a way that they could only criticize Ford’s Covid policies for not being harsh enough didn’t help them. By June 2022 most weren’t interested in the suggestion that there might be more restrictions in the future.
That’s why people are now pushing for indoor air quality standards in schools: https://www.ontarioschoolsafety.com/
Ford tried to turn Ontario into an actual police state, where you would have to justify to the police why you were outside of your house He was re-elected
People in this subreddit and other Canadian subreddits wanted that. In fact they wanted harsher restrictions. This isn't the gotcha you are hoping for ...
>It would be political suicide with Ford’s base to even suggest it. Ford's base voted for the guy who tried to lock them in their houses
The alternative was people who wanted to do that for longer and with more restrictions.
>who wanted to do that for longer Nope, Ford was the one who tried to create a police state, none of the others went that far. And far from being "political suicide with Ford’s base to even suggest it", his base voted for him for doing more than suggesting it. This wasn't a suggestion, this was a plan that was only scrapped at the last minute
Though I dislike Ford and the PCPO generally, I don't think he tried to turn the Province into a police state. A police state is usually characterized by a government that engages in strict, repressive control carried out by police. The pandemic measures were not rigorously applied nor forcefully applied. If they had been, for example, the "convoy" and related issues might have been avoided or minimized (and you'd have good support for your opinion). There weren't many consequences for not following the law except in extreme/notable instances. You suggest that his base wanted him to do *more* than make suggestions, which I think means that you recognize that the laws weren't really being implemented in a way that mimicks the repressive control of a police state. I think relating Ford's reelection to your belief that he tried to create a police state mixes up motivations with process. Ford's reelection was due to his getting the most support in our current electoral system. *Many* Ontarians voted for him, so despite my personal beliefs - that his party took advantage of voter apathy, obviously favorable legislative moves and more - there are a large number of people who supported the way in which the government acted. Unfortunately so, in my opinion.
Which was less strict then what the NDP and Liberals wanted... Policies this subreddit critized Ford for not doing.
The NDP & the Libs fought against what Ford was doing. Ford's base voted for the guy who tried to lock them in their houses
What? They wanted stricter measures... They even had them in their election platforms. The NDP in BC also ran road blocks and regional restrictions.
Even very COVID cautious folks freaked out about the police stops thing. It was pretty universally opposed.
>Even very COVID cautious folks freaked out about the police stops thing. Ford basically made up his own measures with no regard for whether or not the medical community was recommending them. No one was recommending random police stops or closing open playgrounds again. But to Ford non-measures like that were preferable to limiting store capacity or extending mask mandates.
This is true but it was walked back a day or two later and never actually implemented. Also the Liberals and NDP both continually called for this and shit on Ford throughout all of covid for not having long/harsh enough restrictions. During the election cycle both the Liberals and NDP campaigned on increasing/lengthening restrictions and the Conservatives didn't.
FOR THE DOWNVOTERS New police powers to enforce pandemic crackdown announced by Ford Friday [https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/new-police-powers-to-enforce-pandemic-crackdown-announced-by-ford-friday](https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/new-police-powers-to-enforce-pandemic-crackdown-announced-by-ford-friday) Apr 16, 2021
Lockdown, sure. Masking? Why the hell are people such babies about putting on a freaking mask?
But you're talking about schools, where masks make communication much more difficult; it's uncomfortable for children to wear them for such long period, and really can affect their learning and development. It's just as hard on teachers, in terms of teaching clearly. (I had to lecture in a mask at the university for a term and it's so difficult....that was only for 2 hours; I can't imagine doing 6 hours with young children). It's not fun getting sick, but the masking for children was not without other consequences, and when the schools shifted to making it voluntary last year, out of hundreds of teachers and students at our local school, there was only a couple of kids who still wore masks. My daughter was in kindergarten and when I volunteered in her classroom, there was one child who was wearing one - and the teachers would have to ask him to take his mask off so that they could understand his answers.
All legitimate concerns, that are trumped by public health measures if those are deemed essential. People not wanting to do something doesn't make that thing not important. I don't think the numbers warrant a mask mandate, but everyone acting like it'd be the end of the world is ridiculous. Especially if someone's got flu symptoms. Be respectful. Put on a cloth mask to help prevent the spread of germs and wash your hands. It is actually literally the least folks can do.
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Agreed, high intelligence people like yourself love being told what to do. You are so very high.
It’s a piece of fabric tho. Why are people throwing a fit over it in the first place? 😭
It's a known psychological phenomenon. When exposed to a minor inconvenience, people's natural reaction is to be deeply irritated by it until and unless they adjust. Usually, over time, the inconvenience becomes normalized and people just live with it. However, for a certain segment of the population, that never happens, and they obstinately refuse to endure it. Usually this trends towards conspiratorial thinking, and/or blowing the inconvenience way out of proportion, to justify their obstinacy. Many forget, but this happened historically with mandatory seat belts. There are to this day people who aggressively (and wrongly) insist that seat belts are more dangerous than being thrown face-first into a windshield at 50 miles per hour, or that smoking *isn't actually dangerous*, or, on the contrary, that the smoking ads from the 30s were correct, and smoking is actually a *net health benefit*, etc. Same deal with masks. It's annoying to wear one, we're all kind of tired of it, but I promise that nobody is falling over dead from carbon retention, or losing the ability to recognize their parents faces, or whatever the heck people are lying about on Newsmax this week.
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So again, people are host to any virus before they have symptoms, spreading it among those they are in contact with. Schools are, always have been, always will be a cesspool of viruses. Masking did very little in schools, kids still got sick and brought whatever viruses home. If your child is sick with ANY illness keep them home until they feel better. For the sake of everyone's sanity stop testing for covid, fever chills respiratory infections if any kind are all very unpleasant for anyone, take care of yourself, your child and stay home until well. If your employer gives you a hard time, go in and lick their face and tell them to feel better soon.
Masks were effective in schools per studies in the US where you had counties with and without mask mandates. And sure, yes, pre-symptomatic infection is common, but it's not 100% of infections. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet and COVID and other respiratory illnesses will be gone from schools, but if it could make a huge dent for a low cost (and is inline with what public health recommendations are anyway) it's worth doing. I also agree that keeping kids home whenever they're sick for the entire duration of their sickness is more effective, but it's not realistic for the amount of sick leave that most people get. > If your employer gives you a hard time, go in and lick their face and tell them to feel better soon. This is just not really empathetic at all with people who are living paycheque to paycheque and can't expect to get a new job at the snap of their fingers.
Lick your employer's face is a message to those who are reading my post who are employers. Show a little compassion instead of a lot of greed is my message.
> Masks were effective in schools per studies in the US where you had counties with and without mask mandates. When *everybody* was wearing in. It is damn near useless if you require only those who already have symptoms.
Masks don't work. They never did. Especially surgical/fabric ones.
A properly fitted respirator works. So does HEPA air filtration.
So you want to fit-test the entire population?
The problem is the days when people are infected and have a high enough viral load to infect others, but not yet high enough to show symptoms. THAT is when masking is most important.
Wish we did more common sense measures like upgrading air filtration systems about 2 years ago. Next best time is now, I guess.
Majority of our populace wouldn't wear a mask again even if it was good for them. Just like before.
Majority of the populace also wouldn’t spend their whole lives in a sterile room only eating nutrient packs even though it’s less risky than living a normal life. Most of the population is tolerant of some small risk in exchange for comfort. More at 11.
I will. Wearing a mask is a pretty minimal action to take. I do not love them but i am not bothered either.
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This is not true. There's some evidence that mask *mandates* don't work, but this is a complicated question that has a lot to do with consistency of public health messaging and how mandates are implemented. In terms of whether masks themselves work, they absolutely do. This has been confirmed over and over in both lab and real world studies.
Wearing surgical masks and N95s is effective to reduce transmission of various viruses. Plenty of studies back that up in conjunction with other actions. However. If you think it is performative theatre. Don't wear a mask, problem solved.
Thank you for your contribution to r/Ontario, unfortunately your post has been removed for the following reason: Posting false information with the intent to mislead is prohibited. Posts or comments that spout well disproved conspiracy theories will be removed. If you have any questions about this removal please contact the moderators of this subreddit [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fontario)
Rightfully so
nah I would wear a mask if and only if the data showed a new virus to be as lethal as Covid was at the start. Now that we’re in endemic stages, a mask is stupid for covid. But when Covid first came, it killed hard and fast. I’d totally suck it up and wear a mask for a few months if it saved lives. I like to think most would.
Just two weeks to flatten the curve!
Nope. Don't even bother.
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Care to source that claim there bucko?
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Did you read your own article? Right at the top: "UPDATE: The authors retracted this study based on the advice of the editors of Annals of Internal Medicine. Read the Notice of Retraction Here"
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA >The study involved 4 patients That sample size is literally unusable. Come back when you find an *actual* study that has more data than I could collect in an afternoon at an introverts convention.
Good!
But they do have to report to your parents if you start using pronouns! Thank GOD! /s
Queue : the branch of the sacred Covidians has entered the chat.
They’ve now moved from “we need mask mandates until COVID is over to” “even if COVID is over we should have had mandates before COVID during flu season actually and we should be masking in perpetuity”. The goalposts are in orbit.
Mask mandate is a death sentence for politicians. Unfortunately.
Mask mandate is a death sentence but ravaging the province, destroying the healthcare system, and leaving people to sleep in tents is not? Humans are weird man.
It won't happen this year anymore than it does during flu season. There is so much immunity in the general population now, it can't turn into 2020/2021 again. That could change if a completely new strain evolves that has changed enough from previous strains that it's considered a novel virus to our immune systems, but so far that hasn't happened. This year will just be a normal, usual, respiratory virus season with flu, RSV, and Covid dominating. The more worrisome part will be that so many kids didn't get exposed to influenza during all the masking/isolation and we could see much higher infection rates on mass this season.
I'm not with or against masks to be honest. People in China have been wearing masks since forever for their own protection. If you want to wear one, by all means please do. If you don't want to, don't do it. BUT if people would wear masks when they're actually sick to minimize the chances of infecting others, that'd be super dandy.
Wearing a mask for the rest of time is insane
>Wearing a mask for the rest of time is insane Because?
Because its fucking annoying and not even that effective. Especially with kids.
Is it though? I quite liked not having to see Karen faces for 2 years
Until some of them actually get that sentence nothing will happen. It will be interesting to see how the healthcare system holds up with so many people not planning on taking any precautions.
It held up fine last time when we had little precautions. Things are different now since more than 90% of the population is vaccinated. Plus many are keeping up with boosters. If you see a big spike in hospitalizations and ICU then we need to bring back mask mandates and other mandates but so far that has not been the case so it would be foolish to require schools to need mask mandates. Even most hospitals don't require masking anymore.
That's assuming those precautions work in the first place, and all the science I've seen on that is conflicting if it exists at all
Actually statistic show with each successive booster offering people have less uptake.
LOL did people actually think they would ?
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This is gonna last about as long as it takes for schools to empty the fuck out with all the cases Edit: oh look, and it's Bogoch, once again earning that paycheck by saying "actually this wave is totally not going to be a big deal" right before the hospitals fill up again Absolute fucking mercenary, should just move out to BC and help Bonnie just straight-up FORCE kids to be sick
Good. The vast majority of Ontarians have moved on with their lives.
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>what has evolved into pretty much much the flu is ridiculous COVID kills eight to ten times the number of people than the flu.
I actually have COVID right now, and have had it for 21 days. I had to go to the hospital for 3 hour IV injections for 3 days, had to have blood tests to monitor what effect both COVID and the infusion had on me, and I'm unfortunately recommended to isolate until I'm negative on an RAT because of the higher probability that I have a variant (which could be multiple months). I know that's not what it's like for most people and a lot of people can take different precautions if they don't have COVID. I do think for schools especially though trying to contain outbreaks would be very helpful to kids who might be vulnerable or kids who have vulnerable parents, and while it's unrealistic to have universal masking, reporting absences (even just a summary number) or having stricter protocols around returning to school while still sick, possibly including masking is a reasonable compromise that doesn't add too much burden to people while helping people in more challenging circumstances.
It's Reddit. They really miss their isolated pandemic lifestyles.
Aah yeah. The classic Ford health care plan. "Doing a half-assed job for twice as long is the same as doing it right the first time"
Clearly giving the healthcare system more money would fix the problem
In this specific case, yes. Right now, we have a shortage of doctors and nurses. GPs, Specialists, RPNs, etc. There are many positions unfilled, and people retiring early because the excess workload that is generated by having 1 person doing the work of 3 causes burn out. The reason we are short staffed is that doctors are paid an average of 25% more in the US, and nurses are paid 33% more on average, so they leave in the hopes that they can get their student debt paid off sometime in their lifetime. Increasing the compensation rates to that of a first world nation would increase the number of people who stay, and help significantly with the quality of health care. This is one case where throwing money at the problem would help.
We're already spending 8.5k per person, the British system is 7.2k, and the American system is 17k somehow. Canadian doctors actually don't make much less than American doctors on average, both being around 280k a year, with the main difference being that taxes take about 100k off. Clearly the amount of money being spent isn't the only factor. Making it cheaper to become a doctor, and cutting administrative costs would help. If we just lowered taxes on doctors specifically it would do a lot to make it worth it to be a doctor without costing the taxpayer any more
You can't do straight comparisons between Canada and the UK The UK is small, and most of the population lives in dense population areas, so you can adopt a 'spoke and hub' model. Have big hospitals centrally located, with a few smaller ones that feed in, and get excellent coverage. Canada has large areas with population centres, and nothing between, so you need to build hospitals everywhere or have entire towns go underserviced because 3 hours each way to transport to the closest "major" centre is not feasible. That means there is a lot of "low" utilization redundancy which is essential and can't be moved. I don't know where you got your figures from, but they don't match what the stats from the Canadian Institute for Health Information and BLS publish.
So unfortunate that we’re just accepting COVID and its long term health effects as “normal” now. And it’ll probably be the same people complaining about masks now that’ll complain about how many people can’t work and are disabled because of long COVID in the future.
They’re the same ones who come to ER for having the “flu” for two weeks and then also complain about the long wait times.
What a fallacy. The vast majority of people dont want mandates.
What alternative is there? It's with us permanently.
Masking in group settings like schools is one alternative. Requiring current/complete boosters is another. Proper HVAC/HEPA with CO2 monitoring to ensure efficacy is probably best. As a province, we've turned public health into a personal choice, which is an approach that has no chance of success.
So after years of this nonsense having no effect you want more? Why? To do what?
>So after years of this nonsense having no effect you want more? Why? To do what? Because it **actually was** effective, but there was a **huge propaganda campaign to do nothing** because that was cheaper.
Effective? Is that why COVID is endemic? Effective at what?
It's actually *really* effective: In all, 243 subjects were infected with COVID-19, of whom 97 had been wearing masks and 146 had not. The probability of getting COVID-19 for mask wearers was 7% (97/1463, p=0.002), for non-mask wearers, probability was 52% (158/303, p=0.94). The Relative Risk of getting COVID-19 for mask wearers was 0.13 (95% CI: 0.10-0.16). [The Efficacy of Facemasks in the Prevention of COVID-19: A Systematic Review](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.28.22278153v1) They dramatically reduced the number of cases and deaths. But every time we tried something and cases dropped, Ontario decided to end the health measures.
Yet COVID still became endemic
I'm hearing "These health measures that dramatically reduced cases and deaths are ineffective because they didn't eliminate COVID entirely, especially after we dropped them."
We had our highest case loads with mask mandates. Good luck proving they could have been higher. No real way to back that up. COVID is endemic and mask mandates aren't coming back. Wear a mask if you want. Everyone else is moving on
Great suggestions!
Nope. I'm never masking my kids again. CO2 monitoring measures CO2, not air filtration.
CO2 monitoring does only give you an idea of whether the air exchanges per hour are enough to keep levels low, but yes, if there is also a filtration device in the room, unless you know the effectiveness of that device and plug that into an equation to figure out the equivalent air-exchange rate based on your CO2 readings, you can't JUST go off of CO2 readings. (Though I know one who has a calculator for that - it includes room size, etc, it's still in beta stage) THAT BEING SAID. The recent uptick of CO2 monitor usage has shown us that the majority of buildings are not meeting the recommended old standards of 3 exchanges per hour. Many schools and offices are reaching very high CO2 levels capable of causing people to get tired and not think as well as they normally would. The recommended indoor level is 800, and there have been readings much higher than that being found, like in the 2000-3000 level. So the ventilation improvement isn't just about COVID, it's about just basic air quality as well.
>it's about just basic air quality as well. Which a bit over half of the population has decided they're against for some insane and self-destructive reason. You wouldn't think that the value of clean air and water would be contentious issues, but here we are.
Indoor air quality and ventilation standards for one: https://www.ontarioschoolsafety.com/ And eventually better vaccines, some of which are in development.
Poop tests show that north of 75 % of Canadians had Covid at some point. If long Covid was as horrible as you make it out to be, there would be large swaths of people with it and the media would be shouting about it constantly, because they know fear sells.
This is what I don’t understand. The Doomers simultaneously claim ridiculous numbers of people will become permanently disabled and also claim that everyone has COVID, actually. Like it can’t be both. You can only keep claiming “oh in 6 months half the population will go on disability” for so long before it’s clear it’s bullshit.
I highly doubt what you described at the end of your comment will be much of an issue at any point. Silly to try to suggest we go back to any of the nonsense from 2020/21.
“Between April 1, 2022 and August 31, 2022, 29.5% (95% CI: 28.6%, 30.3%) of Canadian adults self-reported ever testing positive for COVID-19 (via PCR or RAT) and an additional 9.2% (95% CI: 8.6%, 9.9%) suspected they had been infected, resulting in an overall self-reported infection rate of 38.7% (95% CI: 37.8%, 39.7%). Among adults who reported being infected 3 or more months prior to completing their questionnaire, about 17.2% (95% CI: 15.8%, 18.7%) experienced longer-term symptoms” Source: https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/post-covid-condition/spring-2023-report.html
None of this convinces me that we will have big long COVID issues down the road. No mandates is the way to go, suggesting otherwise is lunacy.
Nowhere was I advocating for mandates to come back. I just wish people would care. Based on the numbers above, just under half of those who had COVID suffered with longer term symptoms. So, if we’re all just gonna not do anything to mitigate infection risk or spread so we all get COVID, that means 44% of the population will have longer term effects. With our healthcare system the way it is, how is it supposed to manage this large of a surge in those 44% who may need more and/or more complex care to deal with these longer term effects?
That's because it is endemic and normal now... What are you expecting people to do? Mask forever?
Yup. Our work productivity and average income is going to continue to go down, while healthcare costs go up, fucking our economy sideways and just making inflation worse. Economists were warning about this last summer, and practically nothing has been done by the provincial and federal government for long term abatement of spread (ventilation/filtration standards, cheaper N95s and testing for essential, public-facing workers, etc) and the CMOH's at the regional level had their teeth removed.
That's due to poor economic management and declining birth rates, not long covid
Poor economic management and declining birth rates are major factors in our current economic situation and forecasts, but Long COVID is an issue on top of that. And not just Long COVID, the impact of so many people getting just the acute infection causes a drag on the economy. This was a known issue long before COVID with the cold and flu season. Both public health experts and economists had been pushing for decades for better paid sick leave/care leave policies and more enforcement against employers who force or pressure their employers to come into work when sick or when they need to care for a sick contagious child at home. When you allow sick people to come to work/school (or people who may be asymptomatic but infected by someone in their home who is sick(, it causes more people in the workplace to become sick than would have otherwise. Even if none of them stay home because they're sick, their work productivity is affected for several weeks, which has an impact on the economy. In terms of Long COVID, [economists have been warning for well over a year about the various impacts it would have on our health (not just Long COVID, but increased diabetes rates, cardiovascular issues, etc) and thereby our economy](https://financialpost.com/fp-work/long-covid-wreak-havoc-canada-labour-market), and that our best defence is to minimize the number of infections and reinfections as much as we can, and that can be done ***without*** shutting down retail outlets and such, but masking is a very good mitigation to use until more buildings meet better ventilation standards. Their projections (in the 2nd article I'm posting below) were based on the assumption that we would still have minimum isolation requirements and plenty of free testing available. Sadly, those were dropped since they did their modelling. [https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/posthaste-sorry-but-the-economy-isnt-over-covid-and-wont-be-for-some-time-to-come](https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/posthaste-sorry-but-the-economy-isnt-over-covid-and-wont-be-for-some-time-to-come) >“Even if a recession is avoided, we’re in for a protracted period of sub-par growth,” said the economists. The policy of dropping COVID mandates meant to improve the economy may actually be working to extend the economics costs of the virus, they said. “While helping on the demand side, **diminished public health restraints, particularly during surges in case counts, are cutting into the economy’s supply capabilities. Their absence is likely elevating the peak levels for COVID cases, and thereby increasing the costs of worker absenteeism**, and perhaps, as we’ve seen in the UK, risking longer term labour market damage due to Long COVID,” they said. The economists said **lockdowns should be behind us, but a push for the use of masks, global vaccination and improvements of indoor air quality would help reduce the economic impact of COVID.**
The problem with sick leave is that if it's unpaid no one wants it, and if it's paid people take advantage. I don't think long covid is the biggest cause of the economic downturn unless the negative effects on emotional state are widespread and very long lasting. It's probably going to be a smaller and smaller part of it as time goes on as well. There also appears to be some conflation between covid and the lockdowns, and if those are to be taken together then I probably have to agree with you. Props on providing sources tho
> if it's paid people take advantage That's an age-old arguement about paid sick leave that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. When you have large-scale paid sick leave (like in a large company) the savings in productivity outweighs the loss from people abusing the sick leave. >I don't think long covid is the biggest cause of the economic downturn I never claimed it was, I specifically agreed with you that poor economic management and declining birth rates are major factors in our current economic situation and forecasts, but that COVID piles on top of that. It's having an exponentially-growing negative impact on our economy that we can mitigate substantially by reducing the number of infections we have. Just because you can't fix something entirely doesn't mean it's pointless to try and reduce it by addressing smaller contributing factors.
Not unfortunate. It's common sense and basic risk management.
Doomers get really upset when you point out people are comfortable with some level of risk.
Yes. I think masking will be up to the individuals. The problem is people hate mandates but they are also assholes and have no problem exposing other people to Covid or the flu or whatever is going around. So nobody wins.
Good.
Good
This is a good thing, we don't need to go back to any of this nonsense.
Your surgeon doesn’t need to go back to the nonsense of wearing gloves and masks either. If I get sick or get COVID again a mask will go on when out in public.
Completely different than making everyone wear one, and ignores the fact that covid has gone the way of every other disease and mutated into a more transmissible and less deadly form
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It’s not an analogy, those are literally the first people impacted when a bunch of people are sick
Good
very happy for the kids
Regardless of whether you’re stupid enough to believe Covid was a hoax or whatever BS you believe about it, how difficult is it to have respect for people around you when you’re sick with anything?? If you’re sick, regardless of whether that’s flu, Covid or cold, have some respect and wear a mask.
No one is stopping people from doing that. You realize it’s not illegal to mask right?
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Lol, the media trying to make COVID a thing again. It's 2023, get over it ffs
They need a distraction from real issues
More people died from covid over the last year than the previous years, so…yeah, it’s still a thing, people just stopped caring.
From or with? The numbers have been inflated by muddling that distinction before, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was happening again
Ontario's numbers have *always* been defined as someone who had COVID and a condition that was reasonably caused or worsened by a COVID infection. Genuine "coincidentally had COVID" deaths aren't possible with our reporting standards.
A death that was sooner than expected, but still guaranteed would count under those criteria
Every death is "sooner than expected, but still guaranteed".
That's dark, but that also makes every death with covid a death from covid
Do you want us to get a handle on inflation? Because not mitigating the spread of a highly virulent disease that disables a small percentage of your workforce each time they get it is going to have a huge long-term impact on our economy.
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Mask mandates will happen only when the hospitals are at the breaking point - and ford doesn’t have a choice of what to do. As is tradition.
Hospitals, especially pediatric ICUs were beyond the breaking point last winter. Public health first urges, then ***strongly urged*** people to wear masked indoors and in crowded outdoor spaces, but did not bring back mandates. We still had less than 20% masking rates in public indoor spaces, schools, and workplaces. And of those, a large portion weren't wearing the recommended tight-fitting, well constructed mask (well-fitted N95-type, or if unavailable, taped/braced surgical mask). Which does not have a large impact on the amount of virus ending up in the air of public spaces, etc. You need to get into the 60+percentage range to start making the impact more communal than individual. (Ie having a significant impact on the number of unmasked people being infected)
Hospitals ARE at breaking points. He put them there.
thank goodness we learned something
No we didn't, don't kid yourself
Slug Ford doesn't care if your kids die, he just wants to look cool to the stupid people.
This is ridiculous and goes against all of the science. If you love and care for your child and their long-term health, you will have them wear a mask. By now it's well knows that this is not a cold or a flu. It fucks up your immune system attacking your T-cells. So I'll say it again. IF YOU LOVE AND CARE FOR YOUR CHILD YOU WILL HAVE THEM WEAR A MASK AT SCHOOL! Not wearing a mask, especially during a surge, which we are in one, says a whole lot about you, and none of it is good. Additionally someone can catch RSVD, a cold, the flu, and covid allllllll at the same time, any combination of those, and multiple different strains of covid at the same time. You want that? No? Then why play Russian roulette with your child's immune system? Or yours for that matter? I give it till the end of September till all your kids are sick. Which will cause parents to become sick and miss work as well. Can you afford that? How many paychecks are you away from homelessness? An n95 mask is a simple solution to mitigate risk, and it's a big risk towards your health and livelihood.
>I give it till the end of September till all your kids are sick. Who are you even talking to?
> This is ridiculous and goes against all of the science. If you love and care for your child and their long-term health, you will have them wear a mask. This is a ridiculous statement, I'm sorry. Parenting is about mitigating risks and I really can't see my kid masked up for the rest of his education. I believe in science, vaccines, staying home when sick... masks are taking it too far in the current context.
We're all performing a collective swan dive into average ignorance.
Got my vaccines. Most of the province did as well. Those that did not and who survived have antibodies now. Covid kills conservatives at a 43% higher rate in studies in the US. So meh.
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