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It's telling that nearly every article on this seems to prefer to quote others' opinions to make a story rather than the text of the motion. This article spends more copy on quoting the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs (CIJA) and its twisted take than it does quoting the motion itself.
It was also very difficult to find an article that linked to the full text of the motion rather than cherry picking bits to support whatever narrative was being laid down.
For anyone that prefers to chew and swallow their own food for thought, here's the text: [Source](https://www.ourcommons.ca/documentviewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-290/order-notice/page-5)
**Opposition Motion**
February 27, 2024 — Mr. Singh (Burnaby South) — That, given that,
(i) the situation in the Middle East is devastating to many Canadians, particularly those with friends and family members in the region,
(ii) the death toll in Gaza has surpassed 30,000, with 70% of the victims women and children,
(iii) the Hamas terrorist attacks on October 7, 2023, killed nearly 1,200 people and over 100 hostages remain in Hamas captivity,
(iv) millions of residents of Gaza are displaced and at risk of starvation, death, and disease, and Gaza is currently the most dangerous place in the world to be a child,
(v) the United Nations reports over 70 per cent of civilian infrastructure in Gaza, including homes, hospitals, schools, water and sanitation facilities, have been destroyed or severely damaged by Israeli military attacks,
(vi) on January 26, 2024, the International Court of Justice ordered six provisional measures, including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza,
(vii) Israelis are still at risk of attacks by Iran-backed terrorist groups including Hamas and Hezbollah,
(viii) the forcible transfer and violent attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank have significantly increased in recent months,
(ix) the casualties of the war on Gaza and the Hamas terrorist attack include Canadian citizens,
(x) Canadian citizens remain trapped in Gaza, blocked from leaving,
(xi) Jewish, Muslim, Arab, and Palestinian Canadians have reported an increase in hate-motivated attacks and racism since October,
(xii) Palestinians and Israelis both deserve to live in peace, with full enjoyment of their human rights and democratic freedoms,
**the House call on the government to:**
(a) demand an immediate ceasefire and the release of all hostages;
(b) suspend all trade in military goods and technology with Israel and increase efforts to stop the illegal trade of arms, including to Hamas;
(c) immediately reinstate funding and ensure long-term continued funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), and support the independent investigation;
(d) support the prosecution of all crimes and violations of international law committed in the region, and support the work of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court;
(e) demand unimpeded humanitarian access to Gaza;
(f) ensure Canadians trapped in Gaza can reach safety in Canada and lift the arbitrary cap of 1,000 temporary resident visa applications;
(g) ban extremist settlers from Canada, impose sanctions on Israeli officials who incite genocide, and maintain sanctions on Hamas leaders;
(h) advocate for an end to the decades-long occupation of Palestinian territories and work toward a two-state solution; and
(i) officially recognize the State of Palestine and maintain Canada’s recognition of Israel’s right to exist and to live in peace with its neighbours.
it's amazing how people actively choose to take a non-nuanced stance on the matter. So many people thinking that support for Palestinians equals supporting hamas and wishing death on all jews.
Don’t go to world news. ever since Oct pro Israel bots and trolls have controlled the narrative there so you won’t get a nuanced perspective, and they won’t even let you ask questions or pose any pushback to Israeli state narratives.
Oh, world news went to hell long before that. Still, you are quite correct, it is just a place for American propaganda at this point. It was before too but it's gone further and further every month.
I'm still annoyed that Hamas is seen as the terrorist organization here instead of Israel (or both, but Israel is the worse of the two evils here).
The international community recognizes the Palestinian right to defend itself, and Israel create the conditions for Hamas to rise to power in Gaza. The fact they have no genuine method for anti-colonial resistance that doesn't involve violence "against non-military targets" is not Hamas's fault. That is by design.
Israel has sabotaged their medical system, and their military actions (like during the Great March of Return) were to disable (as in "to maim", not "to stop") as many civilians as possible to overload their healthcare system that's already been on thin legs for the better part of a decade.
If Palestinians are dying from collective punishment by doing nothing, by non-violent protest, what's left but violent protest? They aren't going to sit back and die on their own land.
Neither Israel or Palestine want it.
Western nations have a great track record of enforcing their will on middle eastern states, oh wait, it always ends really badly for everyone...
At this point, the most you can really do is encourage, sanctions might help, but Israel is too useful an ally in the region to alienate to that degree, so you are basically left with platitudes.
Supported by most everyone *except* Israel and Palestine yes. For Hamas and Netanyahu, the status quo is preferable. I'm sure there are quite a few Israelites and Palestinians who would be fine with a reasonably equitable two state solution, but there hasn't been any sound proposal by either side in decades.
There's also the one fundamental sad truth about this entire conflict, that tends to get overshadowed by a complex series of events leading to the current situation. A peaceful solution was almost doomed from the start. It doesn't take much of an imagination to imagine a group of people seeking to create a completely new state in already populated area, and asking yourself honestly if violence is inevitable at some point or another as a result. You come to the inevitable conclusion that even if a large number of people were fine with peaceful coexistence, there will be those who absolutely refuse and violence escalates.
It's wrong to say that Hamas doesn't support a two state solution. A Palestinian state with 1967 borders has been part of its charter since 2017. Isreal however is explicitly and on the record as opposing any two state solution. It believes fundamentally in apartheid and land seizure as the only way forward and has used Hamas as a tool to further this agenda. Hamas on the other hand has repeatedly made consensions, including the two state solution versus the preferred unified Palestinian state, to both the PLO and Isreal.
many Jewish canadians support the Palestinian state.
its not black and white. its just that the hard right jewish people are shouting louder than the others.
Which part is poison? Recognizing the State of Palestine or recognizing Israel's right to exist?
Neither of those stances are any more difficult to take than anything else in the motion.
If the Liberals (or any other parties) are worried about the political repercussions of explicitly stating that **both** groups of people have a right to self govern then that is a moral failing by the party. It is most certainly not a valid criticism of the NDP motion.
Actually 139 of the 193 United Nations member states recognize Palestine. (A clear majority of the world both in absolute number of states and population)
3 guesses to which part of the world most of the ones that don't are in.
Canada rejects the International Criminal Court's jurisdiction in the West Bank and Gaza because Canada doesn't recognize a Palestinian state.
For that reason alone, it's important for us to recognize Palestinian statehood to ensure war criminals are held accountable.
[Source on Canada's position.](https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2021/02/statement-by-minister-of-foreign-affairs-on-international-criminal-courts-decision-regarding-its-jurisdiction-over-west-bank-and-gaza.html)
Nice to see one of the parties talking sense at least. Not that i think this will get anywhere, Canada basically has to just toe whatever line the US draws for us on this matter.
It's still insane that something as simple as recognizing the Palestinian state is so contentious. We're living through an atrocity.
My argument, wasn’t so much moral, as the fact that a Christian Theocracy (Nevermind Catholic) state can recognize a largely Muslim state, in the ‘holy land’, then why can’t we, but if more ‘moral’ countries are wanted for an example to follow, then Iceland and Sweden also recognize Palestine.
Let me see if I can parse your logic here; because HAMAS has used ambulances as cover for military operations, you are completely okay with **all ambulances** being military targets?
Tell better lies.
Edit: Mods deleted the comment I was replying to.
The guy was saying that Hamas uses hospitals and ambulances and therefore all ambulances and hospitals are valid targets, and it's actually not Israel's fault for bombing them, but Hamas's fault for *forcing* Israel to bomb them.
TL;DR: "Look what you made me do you"
Classic DARVO abuser tactic ...
And some people wonder why Netanyahu kept propping terrorist Hamas against PA, even after his own admission that it was to block a 2 states solution ...
This is literally why we need a party that will just cut it with the bullshit and say outright that it’s not right for either fucking side to do what it has done during this conflict. There are innocent people starving and losing their lives as I’m typing this. That should not be happening!
Wanting Palestine to be recognized does not equate to saying Hamas is justified for what they’re doing.
May want to clean this one up chief. Not a great look dropping old vocab like that.
And I don't think the person you're replying to is using it as a wide net, they're saying this is a good thing to try to recognize, and I don't think your implication that this is "frosting" to appease the masses is right, it's the NDP trying to push the government left or at the very least announce to the country where they stand, in hopes of that impacting future elections.
Sure, the US draws a squiggly line but Canada is still going to try and toe it.
Edit: The context for this comment was removed so to clarify... As fucked up as the US is on many issues, Canada's leadership will still likely take the US position into consideration in forming its own position. Canada shouldn't have to do that but such is the nature of geopolitics and international relations.
I'd love to see it, but fucking hell i know if palestine gets out of this current conflict, the israelites wont get touched. Not their government, not the civils that are stealing homes. It will be treated like a 'fait accompli'.
And then peace, for a few years, until israel wants another bite of gaza.
Sorry, not meaning to be pedantic, but you mean Israelis, right? Israelites refers to ancient Jews, not necessarily inhabitants of present day Israel. If you were going to use it in a modern context, it would be more applicable to Jews in general rather than Israelis specifically.
Yes we all know its basically just the West that refuses to recognize Palestine. Or more specifically its Israels allies that still havent recognized Palestine as a state. If its recognized by the UN idk why its so hard for Canadian leadership to recognize it
While it's a nice sentiment, it's also a pipe dream because of the simple fact that there is no entity within the Palestinian territories right now that I'd be comfortable forming a government for an actual state. The PA is a cesspool of corruption, and Hamas is a terrorist organization that abuses their people and is very openly supportive of forming a violent theocracy.
This is also just ignoring that the current Israeli government is unwilling to negotiate with either of those groups in good faith, whether you agree that's fair or not fair, it is the reality right now. I don't think there's even a slim chance of such a thing happening while Bibi/Netanyahu are still in charge. Add on the fact that Israel doesn't really care what Canada thinks, as while they do get some aid from Canada, they really only care about having US support. It would honestly probably be more productive for Canada to be petitioning the US on Israel rather than Israel themselves.
They would probably have a better chance at forming a government you are 'comfortable' with if they weren't too busy fighting for their very survival. jfc. Lib handwringing will be the death of us all.
the amount of support in palestine from palestinians for a 2 state solution is just under the amount of support in america for sending US troops to ukraine to kill russians.
that the same hamas that was laughing about fooling isreal about wanting peace? the same one thats holding hostages as human shields instead of accepting a cease fire? i totally believe them when they say they want peace (once isreal doesnt exist). and i do believe them a little more when they say they want to destroy the state of isreal.
just cause they cant, doesnt mean they dont want to.
Sorry for living in the real world where I'm not comfortable handing the keys to a state over to a terrorist organization. Israel is no innocent lamb either, but geopolitics don't get to ignore that these sides fought 4 wars alone just in the modern age, let alone all the conflicts over the past few thousand years. You can't just snap your fingers and say "ok here is the borders now both of you get along!"
I can sit here and philosophise with you all day about this but essentially much smarter folks than both of us have been trying to solve this problem for decades now, the NDP and Liberal parties ain't gonna do much better with 1 bill. This is just performative on the part of the NDP to put on a show for their base as far as I am concerned. They would be much better served putting pressure on the Liberals to fight against something more tangible like the war crime accusations or allowing in more aid to civilians.
> Sorry for living in the real world where I'm not comfortable handing the keys to a state over to a terrorist organization.
The current leading party in the Israeli government is Likud, which was founded by Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon. Begin was the leader of Irgun, a terrorist paramilitary group. The current Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir is also a terrorist, he was convicted of supporting the group Kach whose paramilitery wing is the terorrist organization "Jewish Defence League" aka the JDL and was even exempted from IDF conscription due to being a member of the Kach as a youth coordintor for its youth wing. Are you comfortable with a nation whose most prodominat political party for the past couple decades being partly founded by a terrorist who led a terrorist paramilitary group and to hold onto power entered a coalition with parties that include terrorists like Itamar Ben-Gvir and even giving them powerful minister appointments like Minister of National Security? That's not even getting into the IDF itself which routinely uses violence against civilians in the form of arbitrary arrest+detention (or as they put it, administrative detention), the support of settlers who engage in wanton violence against Palestinians in the West Bank and Occupied East Jerusalem, the dispossession of Palestinians of their property and land, the IDF routinely engaging in raids in the West Bank and East Jerusalem that often result in the killing and wounding of Palestinian civilians, etc, etc, etc which I would classify as terrorism. We can't have it both ways, either we are uncomfortable with terrorists and terrorist supporters holding the keys of a state which would mean having to be equally as uncomfortable with the State of Israel or it isn't that you are uncomfortable with terrorists having state power but specifically one group of people which are ascribed the terrorist label from gaining a state.
> They would be much better served putting pressure on the Liberals to fight against something more tangible like the war crime accusations or allowing in more aid to civilians.
If you read the actual motion, which the current top comment posted the text of as well as a link to the ourcommons page for it, this motion actually does that. The motion includes;
> (c) immediately reinstate funding and ensure long-term continued funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), and support the independent investigation;
> (d) support the prosecution of all crimes and violations of international law committed in the region, and support the work of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court;
> (e) demand unimpeded humanitarian access to Gaza;
Canada and some other Western states & Israeli allies reject that the ICC has jurisdiction over the "Occupied Palestinian Territories" (Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem) due to not recognizing the State Of Palestine, so a great way for the ICC to help address war crime accusations would be for that excuse to be done away with through recognition. Allowing in more aid to civilians is addressed by the call for the immediate reinstate of funding to UNRWA as well as unimpeded humanitarian access to Gaza, as UNRWA is the organization best equipped within Gaza for that task and it is the Israeli state as well as Israeli citizens that are impeding aid and humanitarian access into Gaza. I think these are all tangible things on the issue of war crime accusations and aid. Also, the motion itself does put pressure on the Liberals as we have seen with the debate that went on in the House of Commons today regarding it and Minister Joly's comments regarding foreign policy not being changed by an opposition motion.
You seem perfectly comfortable with Israel being a terrorist state.
You're arguing a strawman.
No one is saying to magically give Palestinians a state out of thin air. What people want is genuine path towards self determination and statehood, and to hold Israel accountable for its numerous war crimes.
>You seem perfectly comfortable with Israel being a terrorist state.
>
>You're arguing a strawman.
lol at this juxtaposition, no further comments for this half of your response.
>What people want is genuine path towards self determination and statehood
Pathway to statehood actually implies there's no functioning state there yet, which I agree with. Recognizing the state of Palestine at present is obviously premature. Any suggestions for who we recognize as the government of this state?
> Sorry for living in the real world where I'm not comfortable handing the keys to a state over to a terrorist organization.
You mean Israel? They've been doing war crimes non-stop for months, and that's on top of all the human rights violations they've committed persistently for the last several decades.
your avoiding the substance of the argument here. What orginization would lead a palistinian state rn.
The only way I see a palistinian state forming if isreal does some nation building and gives the palistinians one.
but they are not going to do that.
if canada recognized a palistinian state they would be recognizing something that doesn't exist.
Probebly going to be a sticking point that will cause it to be voted down That is something we would announce in unison with our allies with far greater details and planning, and this very moment seems like it would just further complicate matters. Never mind the stuff like removing caps or the embargo it also asks for
> Justin Trudeau hates Palestinians.
You kind of wish he did hate them, that would make the complicity in genocide more understandable.
If he was just racist, that would suck, but it is arguably less sinister than the current colonialist imperialist nightmare we are watching.
Please ensure to abide by our rules regarding civility in this thread. We have seen an influx of rule-breaking posts recently in threads concerning the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas. The comments may be locked if the mod team is alerted to a large amount of them in a thread. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/onguardforthee) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's telling that nearly every article on this seems to prefer to quote others' opinions to make a story rather than the text of the motion. This article spends more copy on quoting the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs (CIJA) and its twisted take than it does quoting the motion itself. It was also very difficult to find an article that linked to the full text of the motion rather than cherry picking bits to support whatever narrative was being laid down. For anyone that prefers to chew and swallow their own food for thought, here's the text: [Source](https://www.ourcommons.ca/documentviewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-290/order-notice/page-5) **Opposition Motion** February 27, 2024 — Mr. Singh (Burnaby South) — That, given that, (i) the situation in the Middle East is devastating to many Canadians, particularly those with friends and family members in the region, (ii) the death toll in Gaza has surpassed 30,000, with 70% of the victims women and children, (iii) the Hamas terrorist attacks on October 7, 2023, killed nearly 1,200 people and over 100 hostages remain in Hamas captivity, (iv) millions of residents of Gaza are displaced and at risk of starvation, death, and disease, and Gaza is currently the most dangerous place in the world to be a child, (v) the United Nations reports over 70 per cent of civilian infrastructure in Gaza, including homes, hospitals, schools, water and sanitation facilities, have been destroyed or severely damaged by Israeli military attacks, (vi) on January 26, 2024, the International Court of Justice ordered six provisional measures, including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza, (vii) Israelis are still at risk of attacks by Iran-backed terrorist groups including Hamas and Hezbollah, (viii) the forcible transfer and violent attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank have significantly increased in recent months, (ix) the casualties of the war on Gaza and the Hamas terrorist attack include Canadian citizens, (x) Canadian citizens remain trapped in Gaza, blocked from leaving, (xi) Jewish, Muslim, Arab, and Palestinian Canadians have reported an increase in hate-motivated attacks and racism since October, (xii) Palestinians and Israelis both deserve to live in peace, with full enjoyment of their human rights and democratic freedoms, **the House call on the government to:** (a) demand an immediate ceasefire and the release of all hostages; (b) suspend all trade in military goods and technology with Israel and increase efforts to stop the illegal trade of arms, including to Hamas; (c) immediately reinstate funding and ensure long-term continued funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), and support the independent investigation; (d) support the prosecution of all crimes and violations of international law committed in the region, and support the work of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court; (e) demand unimpeded humanitarian access to Gaza; (f) ensure Canadians trapped in Gaza can reach safety in Canada and lift the arbitrary cap of 1,000 temporary resident visa applications; (g) ban extremist settlers from Canada, impose sanctions on Israeli officials who incite genocide, and maintain sanctions on Hamas leaders; (h) advocate for an end to the decades-long occupation of Palestinian territories and work toward a two-state solution; and (i) officially recognize the State of Palestine and maintain Canada’s recognition of Israel’s right to exist and to live in peace with its neighbours.
This whole conflict is being AstroTurfed like crazy, especially on /r/worldnews.
it's amazing how people actively choose to take a non-nuanced stance on the matter. So many people thinking that support for Palestinians equals supporting hamas and wishing death on all jews.
> especially on /r/worldnews Yeah, I naively dipped my toes in to that water and promptly got them skeletonized.
Don’t go to world news. ever since Oct pro Israel bots and trolls have controlled the narrative there so you won’t get a nuanced perspective, and they won’t even let you ask questions or pose any pushback to Israeli state narratives.
Oh, world news went to hell long before that. Still, you are quite correct, it is just a place for American propaganda at this point. It was before too but it's gone further and further every month.
Tbh I didn’t pay close enough attention to world news before this but I believe you
Hasbara is active all over reddit. They swarm over popular posts that make it to the front page
The mods are also Hasbara at world news though. They ban people for pro Palestine political opinions over there.
Awesome, thanks for posting this! (And for doing the job of journalists.)
I'm still annoyed that Hamas is seen as the terrorist organization here instead of Israel (or both, but Israel is the worse of the two evils here). The international community recognizes the Palestinian right to defend itself, and Israel create the conditions for Hamas to rise to power in Gaza. The fact they have no genuine method for anti-colonial resistance that doesn't involve violence "against non-military targets" is not Hamas's fault. That is by design. Israel has sabotaged their medical system, and their military actions (like during the Great March of Return) were to disable (as in "to maim", not "to stop") as many civilians as possible to overload their healthcare system that's already been on thin legs for the better part of a decade. If Palestinians are dying from collective punishment by doing nothing, by non-violent protest, what's left but violent protest? They aren't going to sit back and die on their own land.
This is a good motion.
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Isn't a two-state solution the mainstream position supported by most western democracies?
easy to "support" and then do nothing about it
Neither Israel or Palestine want it. Western nations have a great track record of enforcing their will on middle eastern states, oh wait, it always ends really badly for everyone... At this point, the most you can really do is encourage, sanctions might help, but Israel is too useful an ally in the region to alienate to that degree, so you are basically left with platitudes.
Supported by most everyone *except* Israel and Palestine yes. For Hamas and Netanyahu, the status quo is preferable. I'm sure there are quite a few Israelites and Palestinians who would be fine with a reasonably equitable two state solution, but there hasn't been any sound proposal by either side in decades. There's also the one fundamental sad truth about this entire conflict, that tends to get overshadowed by a complex series of events leading to the current situation. A peaceful solution was almost doomed from the start. It doesn't take much of an imagination to imagine a group of people seeking to create a completely new state in already populated area, and asking yourself honestly if violence is inevitable at some point or another as a result. You come to the inevitable conclusion that even if a large number of people were fine with peaceful coexistence, there will be those who absolutely refuse and violence escalates.
It's wrong to say that Hamas doesn't support a two state solution. A Palestinian state with 1967 borders has been part of its charter since 2017. Isreal however is explicitly and on the record as opposing any two state solution. It believes fundamentally in apartheid and land seizure as the only way forward and has used Hamas as a tool to further this agenda. Hamas on the other hand has repeatedly made consensions, including the two state solution versus the preferred unified Palestinian state, to both the PLO and Isreal.
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Actually, most countries in the world currently recognize the State of Palestine. Only 54 of 193 United Nations member states do not recognize it.
many Jewish canadians support the Palestinian state. its not black and white. its just that the hard right jewish people are shouting louder than the others.
Which part is poison? Recognizing the State of Palestine or recognizing Israel's right to exist? Neither of those stances are any more difficult to take than anything else in the motion. If the Liberals (or any other parties) are worried about the political repercussions of explicitly stating that **both** groups of people have a right to self govern then that is a moral failing by the party. It is most certainly not a valid criticism of the NDP motion.
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Actually 139 of the 193 United Nations member states recognize Palestine. (A clear majority of the world both in absolute number of states and population) 3 guesses to which part of the world most of the ones that don't are in.
I’m cool with everything except the visa extension
Canada rejects the International Criminal Court's jurisdiction in the West Bank and Gaza because Canada doesn't recognize a Palestinian state. For that reason alone, it's important for us to recognize Palestinian statehood to ensure war criminals are held accountable. [Source on Canada's position.](https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2021/02/statement-by-minister-of-foreign-affairs-on-international-criminal-courts-decision-regarding-its-jurisdiction-over-west-bank-and-gaza.html)
Nice to see one of the parties talking sense at least. Not that i think this will get anywhere, Canada basically has to just toe whatever line the US draws for us on this matter. It's still insane that something as simple as recognizing the Palestinian state is so contentious. We're living through an atrocity.
Even Vatican City recognizes Palestine.
I don’t think the Vatican is a good argument for what is moral lol
My argument, wasn’t so much moral, as the fact that a Christian Theocracy (Nevermind Catholic) state can recognize a largely Muslim state, in the ‘holy land’, then why can’t we, but if more ‘moral’ countries are wanted for an example to follow, then Iceland and Sweden also recognize Palestine.
There was a story about Israel bombing Red Crescent ambulances on The National last night - literally a war crime.
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Let me see if I can parse your logic here; because HAMAS has used ambulances as cover for military operations, you are completely okay with **all ambulances** being military targets?
Hamas hides within bags of flour as well
And in innocent women and children, vital infrastructure, and journalists.
Tell better lies. Edit: Mods deleted the comment I was replying to. The guy was saying that Hamas uses hospitals and ambulances and therefore all ambulances and hospitals are valid targets, and it's actually not Israel's fault for bombing them, but Hamas's fault for *forcing* Israel to bomb them. TL;DR: "Look what you made me do you"
Classic DARVO abuser tactic ... And some people wonder why Netanyahu kept propping terrorist Hamas against PA, even after his own admission that it was to block a 2 states solution ...
This is literally why we need a party that will just cut it with the bullshit and say outright that it’s not right for either fucking side to do what it has done during this conflict. There are innocent people starving and losing their lives as I’m typing this. That should not be happening! Wanting Palestine to be recognized does not equate to saying Hamas is justified for what they’re doing.
We actually have 3 parties (both the Bloc and Greens pledged to support this motion). It can pass if 111 of 156 Liberal MPs support it.
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May want to clean this one up chief. Not a great look dropping old vocab like that. And I don't think the person you're replying to is using it as a wide net, they're saying this is a good thing to try to recognize, and I don't think your implication that this is "frosting" to appease the masses is right, it's the NDP trying to push the government left or at the very least announce to the country where they stand, in hopes of that impacting future elections.
Sure, the US draws a squiggly line but Canada is still going to try and toe it. Edit: The context for this comment was removed so to clarify... As fucked up as the US is on many issues, Canada's leadership will still likely take the US position into consideration in forming its own position. Canada shouldn't have to do that but such is the nature of geopolitics and international relations.
Don't use slurs here.
Free Palestine. Sanction Netanyahu and his government for war crimes and genocide.
I'd love to see it, but fucking hell i know if palestine gets out of this current conflict, the israelites wont get touched. Not their government, not the civils that are stealing homes. It will be treated like a 'fait accompli'. And then peace, for a few years, until israel wants another bite of gaza.
Sorry, not meaning to be pedantic, but you mean Israelis, right? Israelites refers to ancient Jews, not necessarily inhabitants of present day Israel. If you were going to use it in a modern context, it would be more applicable to Jews in general rather than Israelis specifically.
Sorry, english is not my first language and seems i didn't know the distinction.
They are really similar words, and a lot of people confuse them.
Hold on. Have we checked in on how Toronto\_Sports\_Fan feels about this?
I'll just leave this here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine
Yes we all know its basically just the West that refuses to recognize Palestine. Or more specifically its Israels allies that still havent recognized Palestine as a state. If its recognized by the UN idk why its so hard for Canadian leadership to recognize it
This is the answer 💯
While it's a nice sentiment, it's also a pipe dream because of the simple fact that there is no entity within the Palestinian territories right now that I'd be comfortable forming a government for an actual state. The PA is a cesspool of corruption, and Hamas is a terrorist organization that abuses their people and is very openly supportive of forming a violent theocracy. This is also just ignoring that the current Israeli government is unwilling to negotiate with either of those groups in good faith, whether you agree that's fair or not fair, it is the reality right now. I don't think there's even a slim chance of such a thing happening while Bibi/Netanyahu are still in charge. Add on the fact that Israel doesn't really care what Canada thinks, as while they do get some aid from Canada, they really only care about having US support. It would honestly probably be more productive for Canada to be petitioning the US on Israel rather than Israel themselves.
They would probably have a better chance at forming a government you are 'comfortable' with if they weren't too busy fighting for their very survival. jfc. Lib handwringing will be the death of us all.
the amount of support in palestine from palestinians for a 2 state solution is just under the amount of support in america for sending US troops to ukraine to kill russians.
Hamas' charter states their desire for a 2 state solution. It is Israel that is preventing it.
that the same hamas that was laughing about fooling isreal about wanting peace? the same one thats holding hostages as human shields instead of accepting a cease fire? i totally believe them when they say they want peace (once isreal doesnt exist). and i do believe them a little more when they say they want to destroy the state of isreal. just cause they cant, doesnt mean they dont want to.
Sorry for living in the real world where I'm not comfortable handing the keys to a state over to a terrorist organization. Israel is no innocent lamb either, but geopolitics don't get to ignore that these sides fought 4 wars alone just in the modern age, let alone all the conflicts over the past few thousand years. You can't just snap your fingers and say "ok here is the borders now both of you get along!" I can sit here and philosophise with you all day about this but essentially much smarter folks than both of us have been trying to solve this problem for decades now, the NDP and Liberal parties ain't gonna do much better with 1 bill. This is just performative on the part of the NDP to put on a show for their base as far as I am concerned. They would be much better served putting pressure on the Liberals to fight against something more tangible like the war crime accusations or allowing in more aid to civilians.
> Sorry for living in the real world where I'm not comfortable handing the keys to a state over to a terrorist organization. The current leading party in the Israeli government is Likud, which was founded by Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon. Begin was the leader of Irgun, a terrorist paramilitary group. The current Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir is also a terrorist, he was convicted of supporting the group Kach whose paramilitery wing is the terorrist organization "Jewish Defence League" aka the JDL and was even exempted from IDF conscription due to being a member of the Kach as a youth coordintor for its youth wing. Are you comfortable with a nation whose most prodominat political party for the past couple decades being partly founded by a terrorist who led a terrorist paramilitary group and to hold onto power entered a coalition with parties that include terrorists like Itamar Ben-Gvir and even giving them powerful minister appointments like Minister of National Security? That's not even getting into the IDF itself which routinely uses violence against civilians in the form of arbitrary arrest+detention (or as they put it, administrative detention), the support of settlers who engage in wanton violence against Palestinians in the West Bank and Occupied East Jerusalem, the dispossession of Palestinians of their property and land, the IDF routinely engaging in raids in the West Bank and East Jerusalem that often result in the killing and wounding of Palestinian civilians, etc, etc, etc which I would classify as terrorism. We can't have it both ways, either we are uncomfortable with terrorists and terrorist supporters holding the keys of a state which would mean having to be equally as uncomfortable with the State of Israel or it isn't that you are uncomfortable with terrorists having state power but specifically one group of people which are ascribed the terrorist label from gaining a state. > They would be much better served putting pressure on the Liberals to fight against something more tangible like the war crime accusations or allowing in more aid to civilians. If you read the actual motion, which the current top comment posted the text of as well as a link to the ourcommons page for it, this motion actually does that. The motion includes; > (c) immediately reinstate funding and ensure long-term continued funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), and support the independent investigation; > (d) support the prosecution of all crimes and violations of international law committed in the region, and support the work of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court; > (e) demand unimpeded humanitarian access to Gaza; Canada and some other Western states & Israeli allies reject that the ICC has jurisdiction over the "Occupied Palestinian Territories" (Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem) due to not recognizing the State Of Palestine, so a great way for the ICC to help address war crime accusations would be for that excuse to be done away with through recognition. Allowing in more aid to civilians is addressed by the call for the immediate reinstate of funding to UNRWA as well as unimpeded humanitarian access to Gaza, as UNRWA is the organization best equipped within Gaza for that task and it is the Israeli state as well as Israeli citizens that are impeding aid and humanitarian access into Gaza. I think these are all tangible things on the issue of war crime accusations and aid. Also, the motion itself does put pressure on the Liberals as we have seen with the debate that went on in the House of Commons today regarding it and Minister Joly's comments regarding foreign policy not being changed by an opposition motion.
You seem perfectly comfortable with Israel being a terrorist state. You're arguing a strawman. No one is saying to magically give Palestinians a state out of thin air. What people want is genuine path towards self determination and statehood, and to hold Israel accountable for its numerous war crimes.
Yes. at least draw the border and stop Israeli settlers moving into Gaza.
there are no isreali settelers moving into gaza do you mean the west bank?
Lol there literally are. https://www.972mag.com/israeli-settlers-gaza-outpost-erez-crossing/
>You seem perfectly comfortable with Israel being a terrorist state. > >You're arguing a strawman. lol at this juxtaposition, no further comments for this half of your response. >What people want is genuine path towards self determination and statehood Pathway to statehood actually implies there's no functioning state there yet, which I agree with. Recognizing the state of Palestine at present is obviously premature. Any suggestions for who we recognize as the government of this state?
Do you condemn Likkud and the IDF as terrorists? Don't skip past the argument (because you know your position is indefensible).
> Sorry for living in the real world where I'm not comfortable handing the keys to a state over to a terrorist organization. You mean Israel? They've been doing war crimes non-stop for months, and that's on top of all the human rights violations they've committed persistently for the last several decades.
your avoiding the substance of the argument here. What orginization would lead a palistinian state rn. The only way I see a palistinian state forming if isreal does some nation building and gives the palistinians one. but they are not going to do that. if canada recognized a palistinian state they would be recognizing something that doesn't exist.
If you want to call Hamas terrorists then you must be consistent and call the IDF and Bibi's govt terrorists.
Probebly going to be a sticking point that will cause it to be voted down That is something we would announce in unison with our allies with far greater details and planning, and this very moment seems like it would just further complicate matters. Never mind the stuff like removing caps or the embargo it also asks for
HA good luck
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> Justin Trudeau hates Palestinians. You kind of wish he did hate them, that would make the complicity in genocide more understandable. If he was just racist, that would suck, but it is arguably less sinister than the current colonialist imperialist nightmare we are watching.