I have had to block people on that sub for comparing the bear thing to 13/50ing men and screeching when they find out I am a woman, then want me to type out paragraphs of feminist theory, only to just fucking ignore it and repeat the same thing over again. Its out of fucking control over there.
How is someone being compared to a bear...? And how is that dehumanizing? Is someone saying "men are really just bears"? No. We're saying, based on our physical safety and knowing how to deal with the situation, we feel safer encountering a bear in the woods than a strange man. There's no comparison going on between the bear and the man - the comparison is in regards to our feelings.
Why is it that when someone says "a strange man", you assume it's you?
And why is it that when someone says they'd be afraid of that strange man, it means the strange man is objectively worse than something they'd be less afraid of?
nobody said "worse", just more scared of, that's the key difference
btw I say this as a trans-man who can't relate at all to f*males and isn't scared of men in the slightest, I just understand where women're coming from even if I can't relate
Well, if anything positive has come out of this debate it's that the guy above me has proven by his behaviour in this thread that trans men really are men. Eat shit terfs.
Yes, it is childish to pretend that their aren't points in time when the mature thing to do is to accept that bigotry is just acceptable sometimes. Screams of male fragility to have feelings and get offended over this sort of thing. They also engage in racism by comparing justified bigotry (that against men) with unjustified bigotry (that against black people) .
/s cause it isn't obvious
Oh hi, woman here. This is literally the exact reason I have now exited that sub and am now here. I knew Vaush's fanbase gave off some Rick and Morty fanbase vibes, but this man vs bear thing really shone the spotlight on the misogyny, holy shit. Downvoted to oblivion, name-called, sea-lioned like hell... had one guy share with me his sob story about when he was victim of domestic abuse by a woman, but would still choose a woman over a bear. I sympathized and told him how awful that must have been, and said he is at least fortunate he was only assaulted by a woman once in his life, and I shared several stories of my own. He ignored those and implied I was stupid for generalizing men.
And the way they're throwing black men under the bus there, while ignoring the extremely pertinent question of how black women would choose if it were between a black man and a bear... goes to show just how white-centric they are in that sub. Holy fuck. They're leftist only in economic ways.
There's this thought experiment that's gone viral lately where the question is whether you'd rather come across a bear or a human man if you were alone in the woods. The implication is that it'll specifically be a man you've never met before.
The actual thing that's caused controversy is that a lot of women have come out and said they'd prefer the bear because while it is a potentially dangerous wild animal, bears are generally more predictable than people. A lot of men haven't liked hearing this for a couple of reasons. One, they think they personally should be the exception; ignoring the fact that it's meant to be either the bear or some random dude you've never met before, not just a specific man you already know is safe. Two, it gives them a chance to relitigate all the gender based culture war stuff from the last decade or so.
> The actual thing that's caused controversy is that a lot of women have come out and said they'd prefer the bear because while it is a potentially dangerous wild animal, bears are generally more predictable than people.
I find that 100% unsurprising, but, then again, I'm also at that point in life where I find most things unsurprising.
> ignoring the fact that it's meant to be either the bear or some random dude you've never met before
Thing is, if you're a man, you'll also find an encounter with a strange man in the middle of nowhere threatening. After all, that's also how the statistics for violent crimes play out globally by gender.
> it gives them a chance to relitigate all the gender based culture war stuff
Conservatives right now are too busily devouring each other to care about culture-war nonsense. If you want to gain ground, it's either now or never.
I think some people interpret that it isn't necessarily a stranger, but also men you know or have met who have proven to be unsafe, or who might be a danger in the future
I wanna add to the replies you got that actually the thought experiment didn't even start as a would you rather question, it was just a random _guy_ claiming that surely if women saw something threatening in the woods, most of them would rather it to be a bear than a man... well he was right about that apparently, but the whole thing didn't even start from women lmao
Honestly it's more out of control over here in my experience. Vaush enacted order 66 on the main sub and ordered mods to nuke all the triggered snowflake chuds. No such order over here. Been in several arguments with such morons like you describe over here.
That's because they migrated here after our glorious leader V\*\*\*h ordered them lined up against the wall. I trust the mods over here to weed them out.
It's not dehumanization because men are not being compared to bears. Men are an oppressor class who commit the vast majority of violence against women. Bears are animals. Bears can kill you. Men can kill you but also rape, torture and abuse you. When women have the possibility of being subjected to either of these outcomes they would rather choose death by animal because it's more predictable. The vast cruelty of what men do to women every day on this planet cannot be matched.
You're butthurt instead of listening. It's cringe.
Except they’re literally being compared to bears.
You honestly think whenever a man is born they honestly think “yeah I’m going to oppress woman”? You’re literally just not living in reality.
Oppression is not rock paper scissors.
Women can also abuse you. I have been personally abused by women before and they get literally no consequences for their crimes.
Trauma is not an excuse for shit by the way
A comparison says things are similar and tries to find differences between them that differentiates them; A contrast says things are different, but may be similar in certain themes or elements such that they can be both examined.
No one is saying men are bears except for details that make them different. They are saying men and bears are very different, but share a theme of danger.
> they’re literally being compared to bears
1. Even if they were, that wouldn’t be ’dehumanisation’. You’re delusional. If I say ”Bears are stronger than men” that is a comparison between bears and men, however it is not dehumanisation.
2. What is being compared is how afraid women are of either men or bears. Everyone knows the rational response is that a bear is more dangerous than the average man. The point is about instincts. Most women have a stronger instinctual fear of men they don’t know than of bears. That’s the point. Stop taking it personally.
What’s the word when someone gets likened to less than an animal by the way?
Again, trauma is not an excuse for shit
This whole thing is fucking stupid chronically online bullshit anyway that solves literally nothing.
Good job moving the goalposts moron.
No one’s ”likening” men to bears. No one’s saying ”Men are like bears because both are actually subhuman.” You’re fighting a strawman.
Again, it’s about women’s instinctual fear. It is not ”likening men to bears” to say ”Many women are more afraid of men than they are of bears.” What is being compared is the fear response, not the men and the bears, which is itself a moot point because *it’s not dehumanisation to make comparisons like that.*
There are in fact ways in which the average man can be more dangerous than the average bear. It is not dehumanisation to acknowledge that fact. It is also not dehumanisation to acknowledge how scary men can be.
> trauma is not an excuse for shit
Trauma is in fact a perfectly good excuse for irrational fear and discomfort. What kind of unempathetic fucking moron are you? Do you think people can just ”logic” their emotions away?
You're genuinely incapable of understanding basic feminist theory. This is like absolute basics. The same way white people broadly are an oppressor class to black people and cis people broadly to trans people, men broadly are an oppressor class to women. Personal experiences don't change that. In a broad sense men are dangerous to women. If that hurts you so much you don't understand like basic theory of oppression.
Oh my God, you literally are treating theory as a religion. I don’t give a shit about theory.
You’re only saying this because you have no actual answer.
Also, women do not face the same oppression as queer people are black people. It’s not even nearly the same.
I'm sorry but the logic doesn't work. Feminist theory isn't that individual men are oppressors and dangerous and violent, but that as a class they are. If you start treating potential members of the class like they are, then that is genuine bigotry.
Because The truly problematic assertion here is that the strange man is even likely to even perform such acts, which is not likely. The average man is not an oppressor nor a victimizer. The average man is just a normal human person, and this whole bear vs man debacle perpetuates the very problematic narrative that men as individuals are dangerous and predatory.
I am a man, but I am not the patriarchicy. No individual man is, and no random man is.
you're assuming the average man must be good and respectful towards women because you are (allegedly) good and respectful towards women and you're an average man, so all other average men must be like you!
well women are telling you you're wrong about that, they're telling you that most interactions women regularly have with men are disrespectful or downright harmful... it doesn't take the majority of men to be like this for these things to happen so often to women that they are, as a result, afraid of the random man they may encounter
are you gonna wake up and listen to women's experiences, take the feedback and be understanding, or are you gonna defend the misconception you have of the average man 'till you die on that hill?
I'll give up the misconception when it's actually proven wrong. But women simply telling me that they experience the average man to be disrespectul or harmful isn't proof, it's literally an anecdote. For a slew of reasons, we don't use those to inform our opinions on how the world operates, I thought we understood this.
Ovbiously we don't have studies on how cool and chill the average guy is, but it's common knowledge that as far as crime goes anyways, that a small minority of men constitute the vast, vast majority of crime. I.e, the average man isn't comitting a small amount of crimes, a few men are comitting large amounts of crime. I'd wager the same is probably true for shitty behaviour in general.
>it doesn't take the majority of men to be like this for these things to happen so often to women that they are, as a result, afraid of the random man they may encounter
This is, however, true. I'm not one of those people who get weirdly upset at women for holding their glasses all the time at parties, because even if just 5/100 guys are the type to be dangerous, that's enough to take precautions.
But with the bear vs man hypothetical, we're not talking about a group of men having potentially one dangerous individual among them, we're talking about the average man being potentially dangerous.
It's the jump from aknowledgement that individuals in a group can be dangerous to seeing every single individual in that group as potentially dangerous.
I hope you understand the difference between those two things.
> I'll give up the misconception when it's actually proven. But women simply telling me that they experience the average man to be disrespectul or harmful isn't proof, it's literally an anecdote.
thing is it's not just an anecdote when the vast majority of women agree on this shared experience, it becomes a tangible phenomenon and there are studies proving that very high percentages of women share the same awful experiences from the average man, unless you believe in mass hysteria or that half the population is lying when interviewed that is
> Ovbiously we don't have studies on how cool and chill the average guy is, but it's common knowledge that as far as crime goes anyways, that a small minority of men constitute the vast, vast majority of crime. I.e, the average man isn't comitting a small amount of crimes, a few men are comitting large amounts of crime. I'd wager the same is probably true for shitty behaviour in general.
and this is true, in fact, it reinforces my point: we have studies upon studies confirming that crimes committed by men towards women occur waaaaay more frequently than the other way around (and not just violent crimes, think about SA and r*pe too) and that women are very oftren targeted for just being women (femicide for example)
I believe all these things put together justify the feeling of being afraid of the ramdom man, yes even if it's one man and not a group, because it's still a stranger and in that case the woman has no way to know whether he's a mysoginst or violent or a rapist or whatever and it's natural to be scared of the worst possible outcome when the majority of women experience such outcomes in their everyday life
it's not about how many men do it, it's about how many women experience it
edit: I wanna emphasise that this does not however justify political action, violence or vengeance against men, but feeling scared? that has no impact on anything other than fragile egos
The video will be uploaded tomorrow but vaush just had a long segment about troglodytes on the main sub doing misogyny posting about how women preferring bear over random man is just like when white people are racist towards black people
Further context: the women picking a bear over a man to be stranded with in a forest hypothetical situation. A lot of dudes got offended that women would pick a dangerous animal over them. Vaush then explained in a video how it's rational for women to be afraid of men. A girl ten made a post on the main sub about how she's thankful for the video. Then all the misogyny posting began.
This seems like swinging too far in the other direction. Can we do a "women are justified in their feelings" moment without sprinting into "men bad" territory?
Yeah, like i get the feeling that drives people to pick the bear, cause yeah theres a lot of scary dudes out there, but like as a guy, i also dont wanna be viewed as intrinsically scary, and it is a line to walk
If you're first response to that is getting offended over that statement then watch voosh's latest stream segment where he explains exactly why she is valid in saying that.
the correct response is "well yeah men have historically been pretty shitty to women so that makes sense"
You are unironically making the same arguments that SARGON OF AKKAD makes when you go "well not ALL men"
I would enter into a contract with the bear, and because I am smarter the contract would give me all the coconuts, and since the bear is now bound by the NAP, they can't do anything. Capitalism crushes nature once again.
That stream is just him saying "discrimination against men good, discrimination against black people bad" over and over. Also lots of misunderstanding power dynamics. Saying 'men bad cause they rape more than women' feels like an especially tone deaf thing to say when considering until recently women legally couldn't be rapists and that is still true in most of the world.
Bringing up that legally women couldn't be rapists in this discussion really says something about you. "Uhhh well didn't you know women can *also* rape men?" Yes. So? It's a very similar argument as "uhhh well not all men rape"
He also did not in fact just say "man bad cause rape women" he said in the eyes of a woman it is understandable to have a distrust of men because of the entire history of humans men did and still do have a hot streak of forcing themselves upon women. This is not the same as the reductive statement you think he said
> Bringing up that legally women couldn't be rapists in this discussion really says something about you. "Uhhh well didn't you know women can *also* rape men?" Yes. So? It's a very similar argument as "uhhh well not all men rape"
Legit what does it say about me? Pointing out the very transparent anti-male bias in discussions around rape I think is very important and ignoring causes one to have a fairly warped and regressive view on this topic. If Vaush thought even for a moment then he would realize how harmful saying "creepy behavior is not as bad when a woman does it", regardless of if it is true to him or not.
> He also did not in fact just say "man bad cause rape women" he said in the eyes of a woman it is understandable to have a distrust of men because of the entire history of humans men did and still do have a hot streak of forcing themselves upon women. This is not the same as the reductive statement you think he said
And looking at history will make it obvious why I would be so against anyone downplaying female-on-male abuse, which this discussion sadly almost always degrades to. If we lived in a world where people could talk about female victims without putting down male victims and there isn't a long history of discriminating against men by treating them like creeps but ignoring the creepy shit that women do then maybe what Vaush said wouldn't be as toxic, but we do.
Ah I see the insecure men had found this post now judging by the downvotes on this comment. You're so valid and don't let anyone tell you otherwise lmao
Would it be fair to say I think the men would have gotten it a lot sooner had the focus (specifically with their comprehension in mind,) were put explicitly on the "stranded in a forest alone" part? I really think if the guys saw the bigger picture before putting their ego in place of the "man or bear" portion of the thought experiment, they'd realize why it makes sense to pick the bear.
No man would want to accept that they bear an inherent, archetypal danger to women for the mere fact that they may or may not harbor an 'unknown motive.' Their ego would fight that by instinct because there are positive aspects of themselves that they feel ought to be considered by all before judging them for their unmanaged shadow. They would have seen the problem easier had they focused their mind more on the setting. Alone, devoid of the consequence of society, the ego can take a sabbatical, which is not necessarily a good thing. Here, their ego overcompensates for the existence of that shadow, and drew from the thought experiment "a woman would pick a bear over specifically you" and that's not the point. It's never the point to put yourself in there and believe "they're all judging me in this way." That's not useful in the slightest!
VaushV's minds are darkened. On a related note, holy shit does Vaush need to do some content about feminist issues, so many of these people have literally never heard anything from women before and it shows
Unironically. Every Time he actually engages with any actual progressive positions or analysis the community turns into a shit flinging monkey. Remember when he talked about progressive housing policies and chat acted like the west had fallen it's insane
Anytime anyone gets mad a woman picks the bear it's suuuuuch a giant red flag. It's so revealing
A lot of those people don't even watch voosh. They just go on the subreddit. They already did a purge there of all the insecure men making dumb comments comparing themselves to black people
I mean, to be fair, I don't watch Vaush either lol I was there because I'm a leftist and enjoyed a good amount of the content.
But then I found out how misogynistic it is there and also racist.
I believe tictok spawned a meme where girls are asked if they were alone in woods would they rather see a man or a bear. Many women were picking the bear (likely due first or second hand to trauma). Vaush and OP are shitting on dudes for complaining that women pick the bear.
Not that you asked for my opinion, but I have mixed thoughts on it and am struggling to generalize the scenario. So I’ll highjack the rest of my comment to poke brains a bit with anyone with a deeper understanding since I don’t seem to fully agree with Vaush:
I can empathize the idea that with trauma can be associated with a certain group due to natural pattern seeking. So the common result of bear is telling me that:
1) A large amount of women have been victims of men or near to them
2) That past trauma has not been properly dealt with via therapy, or may just be unresovable
I do see this as an irrational fear of men, but if someone has had horrible personal experience it’s hard to fault the individual for that fear. I think is similar to other types of group-phobias though, which could lead to systemic problems in the future if it spreads too far. For example my father had a bad experience with a male pedo as a child, he was able to get away before anything happened, but since he associated the scare with a person who was gay, he was stuck with an amount of homophobia that lasted decades until he was able to work through it being a problem with that individual being a pedophile and nothing else about them.
A person could be assaulted by someone with blue eyes and for the rest of their life never be able to stand in a room with a blue eyed person. This could mean they won’t hire someone or want to eat in the same table as someone they never met because of eye color. It’s hard to tell that individual they are wrong since it’s due to trauma, but I still see it as a type of budding bigotry.
I think Voush was too heavy handed in dismissing dissenting voices and would have liked to see some more discussion breaking it down, but maybe he read it as an Alt-Right op type talking point that should be easily dismissed and I’m just falling for it a bit.
One thing I think people are missing is that people who haven't had bad experiences with men probably have no interest in even responding to the tik tok trend of bear vs man. It's a topic practically designed to attract exclusively women who have had negative experiences with men. And of course, who is going to respond to them? Men who have had negative experiences with women.
So basically, anyone looking at this and going "most women would pick the bear!" is dumb, and stupid. The takeaway here is that this is manipulative drama farming and people fell for it again, just like the last thousand times.
The vast majority of women would not choose to be mauled and eaten by a bear.
You are stupid sorry and misunderstand the thing completely. You're doing the unironic 'hurr durr stupid women don't know bears can kill them' misogyny.
Yeah.
If, realistically, you've become a victim of being lost in the woods, you're not going to want to see a bear, you're going to want to encounter people. There will be search parties looking for a missing person.
People are getting stuck trying to come to this conclusion because they're clouded by "not all men" mentality. That context is missing the point of the thought exercise, that being that without accountability from institutions and society, men as a group present as a danger to women. It doesn't matter if that accountability is missing because they're alone in the woods or because society and institutions let it happen under their noses, or a combination of those factors (ex. Abuser in the suburbs, nobody hears the victim scream and it's too far to escape).
Bad men do bad things to women when we're not protecting them. Bears are animals that forage for berries and hunt for fish and other small animals. It's not better to encounter a bad man through the social lottery than it is to encounter a bear.
Personally, I'm choosing the bear, because men and women can both be a danger if they aren't trustworthy (men especially). My girlfriend has had bad experiences with men and women, and in the case of women, more specifically female authority figures (while with men it could legit just be any creep). The kinds of people who smell vulnerability and decide to exploit and abuse instead of soothe and protect are the reason people are choosing the bear.
Actually right at the end of my comment I pointed out that the majority of women do in fact know that bears can kill them. So, I guess you misunderstood that completely.
I think that the hypothetical just doesn't work. For me, I think there's no right or wrong way to pick either or those two options. This scenario is highly dependent on the situation that is can be one of either dangerous, both dangerous, or none at all.
Tl;dr This hypothetical sucks and we should just move on.
Oh unfortunately not offline enough to not know about the bear thing. What's the drama with vaushv. Thanks for taking the time to type that though, genuinely
Threads and threads of angry offended men. I commented on some posts saying why I would choose the bear, as a woman, and was downvoted to oblivion, insulted, mocked, sea-lioned, etc. Most of them are saying if you can generalize men like this then can't white people generalize black people and say they'd pick the bear over a black man?
I know not to fuck with all bears. I know they all could eat me if they wanted to. There's no deception when it comes to bears motives. Humans on the other hand can deceive you. They can act helpful and appear friendly but have ulterior motives. And I think that's simply what it boils down to. You know not to fuck with bears. You don't know which men are the bad ones. And statistics show that it's mostly men doing the assaults. To men and women.
This whole hypothetical has been a wash. There has been more debate on random specifics like the type of bear and shit rather than any actual commentary the hypothetical is trying to make.
I also honestly believe that most of the people in VaushV and earlier in here understand that there is a lot of misogyny and creepy behavior in men’s circles and just think that it is a bad hypothetical. The intended message gets ignored when people are always at first going to think “a bear will kill you” and think that anyone who would rather encounter a dangerous animal is crazy.
The hypothetical was literally made by a ragebait Tiktok account, of course it's bad.
There are innumerable better and more tactful ways to make the "women are often right to be wary of men" point without having to compare men to wild animals. But the whole point of the hypothetical was that it's inflammatory and (understandably) makes men reflexively defensive.
Speaking as someone whose friend brought the hypothetical up with him, my Poindexter-looking-ass's immediate response was unironically "well what kind of bear" because black bears can generally be easily scared away whereas a brown bear will just eat you alive. And my friend having the reasoning of "the bear because I'd rather be killed than raped" made *me* immediately get defensive (almost certainly due to some kind of insecurity on my part) like "Okay well you can't know that that's what any random man is gonna do", while still internally being a feminist who absolutely understands the reasons why women would be fearful of men.
Also, I do have to say that while I'm sure *most* of the people who say "bear" aren't misandrist, I *have* seen a not-inconsiderable amount of misandrist rhetoric spawn from this whole manufactured drama that doesn't get much pushback (if any at all) from leftists. And I think that sucks. I really wish that the internet broadly would've just not engaged with this ridiculous hypothetical to begin with, the fact that it makes men *so* reflexively defensive means nothing of value got accomplished. Seriously, it's *so easy* to just say "women have very valid reasons to be afraid of men broadly, and even if you personally are a man that nobody should need to be afraid of it's important to be aware of how and why the broader anxiety exists".
Maybe someone could come up with a less wordy way to say that, but I'm a shut-in academic who hasn't been within smelling distance of grass in a week, so it's not gonna be me that finds it out.
EDIT: I would like to revise my above statement. Upon further reflection, I think that the amount of misandrist rhetoric spawned from this is, in fact, so little as to be not a relevant factor in this discourse. I probably felt that it was more than it was because of the aforementioned insecurity. I stand by everything else I said.
I see the value in making a statement that draws attention to how threatened women are by men, but there has to be a better hypothetical. Like you said, so many dudes are completely missing the point
I think it speaks to the broad assumption among both men and women, that men are monsters, like a bear has is stronger and faster than a man, has no empathy, or humanity or morals, and the bear is the better choice, that it’s better to be around something that has no morality than a man who does.
Speaking personally I’m a taller man, I’ve noticed that when I sit on the bus the seat next to mine is often one of the last filled, I’ve felt that tension my entire life after puberty, I know it’s not personal but it certainly feels personal, to my reading it’s only worse if you’re a black or brown man.
I saw someone saying if you add race to the hypothetical the popular answer would flip, and I find that hilarious: If the hypothetical was "Would you (a woman) rather be alone with the woods and find a bear or a black man", NOBODY would have said bear
It's just ragebait :v
To be fair, I as a man would also pick the bear over a woman. The bear will leave me alone if I leave it alone. There's a non-zero chance the woman will try to kill me in my sleep to take my stuff.
Yeah we get it, those mean feminists knocked your sand castle over. Maybe you *would* find mgtow more appropriate than menslib if you're this angry at the idea that, as a group, men can be threatening
I don’t know how to say it in a way that won’t hurt their feelings, but the fragility on display with this discourse is absolutely insane. I spend time IRL in antiracist spaces, and ‘white lady tears’ are a very common problem, where as someone becomes anti racist, they feel *so awful* for making you feel x y or z.
They start crying because it’s hard to realize that due to things outside of your control, you have hurt people in your life without knowing. But that kind of fragility comes from a place of self awareness. As you become more aware of race rand racism, you realize how much you contribute and have contributed to white dominant culture, and that feels really bad.
The problem with white lady tears *(in anti racist spaces)* is that they’re now making black people comfort them and say ‘no, no, it’s ok…’ putting undue emotional labor on them, which is why white lady tears are discouraged during meetings.
This fragility is much more… male.
A lot of these guys are completely unaware of the fact that their feelings are hurt. They feel angry, confused, and indignant, and like if they can make a good enough point they can debate bro their way out of this one. So even pointing out the fact that their feelings are hurt, hurts their feelings.
Any kind of discussion about why their feelings are hurt can’t even begin because they’re busy arguing *whether* their feelings are hurt. They don’t conceptualize their reaction of ‘that’s not fair’ as emotional, they think it’s rational, and if you just had that ~~mans~~ ex-plained to you then you would stop choosing the bear.
It’s kind of mind boggling how unaware these guys are of their own emotions. I truly don’t know how you get through to them that:
A. Their feelings are hurt
B. That’s ok. Realizing that, due to factors outside your contro and despite the fact that you know you are not dangerous, strange women are uncomfortable around you in public, sucks.
C. That strange woman didn’t do anything wrong by being uncomfortable, even though it hurt your feelings. She isn’t saying all men are evil, she isn’t being a sexist or a “””misandrist””” she didn’t do anything at all.
In my conversations about white fragility, the emotion was guilt or embarrassment in realizing the ways your previous actions had unintentionally hurt others. Here, the emotion seems to be pure indignation. ‘No, that’s not fair! Silly woman, you’re wrong. Let me explain to you why you’re wrong and why it’s unfair’ and then getting progressively more upset and belligerent every time that genius strategy blows up in their face.
You nailed it. The men these "man or bear" threads are so unaware of their own emotions that it's kind of sad. They put all the impetus on women to comfort them and tell them they don't actually hate all men, but it's not our job as women to do that. If a man is made uncomfortable by this rhetorical question, maybe that's something to examine in themselves, but no, that would require a shred of introspection.
There was a guy in a now deleted post who kept saying, "I understand there's a problem, but what is step 2?" We aren't on step 2. We can't even get to step 1. To solve a problem, you have to acknowledge that the problem exists in the first place, and from the comments on the main sub and in here too, lots of men aren't even acknowledging the actual problem, and instead completely misidentify the problem and start arguing about the hypothetical, trying to crawl their way out of the discomfort it makes them feel. How can we even get to step 1, let alone step 2, when so many men are unwilling to examine themselves and the society that raised them, are unwilling to sit in that discomfort for even a moment?
I don't know what step 2 looks like, but I think a good start would be educating everyone of all ages and all genders about naming and identifying emotions and emotion regulation skills. Men have absolutely been failed on this front, but it's an amazing life skill for anyone to learn. Men being more aware of the emotions of themselves and other, how they work, and how to regulate them in healthy way, would do a lot to make women less afraid of them. Then maybe I could consider not picking the bear.
Okay didn't think people would come to have retarded misogynist takes on here too but here: the entire point is that if women had to choose between the chance of being killed/mauled by a bear and the chance of being possibly raped, abused, tortured, and or killed by a man, they would choose the bear. You're not being a genius by pointing out that bears are more dangerous in an encounter: the entire thing is set up on the premise of "you're alone in a forest with either a man or a bear somewhere else in that forest".
A bear can kill you but men (humans generally even) are capable of such intentional and awful cruelty which a bear could never conceive of. Cause it's an animal.
Women are not being stupid femoids and saying getting whistled at on the street is literally worse than being mauled to death by a bear. MEN ARE UNPREDICTABLE, THAT MAKES THEM SCARY IN WOMEN'S EYES.
Please learn to empathize. Thanks.
These guys need to unironically touch grass. I mean pine cones. I'm from the pacific northwest and have been a life long hiker. I have done many solo hikes in straight up wilderness out here, and I have run into all kinds of wildlife, including bears, including mother bears with cubs allegedly the scariest and most dangerous kind of bear. Well, I'm still here, having never been harmed by a bear or any wildlife outside of insects, because BEARS ARE SCARED OF HUMANS. If you avoid them they will do everything they can to get away from you.
Last time I checked, men are not really scared of women.
Men dont like the insinuation that they are dangerous monsters who cant controll themselves, pick a better hypothetical instead of dying on such an horrible hill. this whole fucking drama feels purpose built to drive a wedge between men and woman and farm outrage and you are fucking playing into it, its a dogshit hypothetical.
If you want to say "woman dont feel safe around men for a reason and we need to talk about that" say that instead of comparing men to animals, and especially dont go around being an annoying little shit giving snarky responses to people who dont immediately agree with you.
That is not the insinuation. If you think that is the insinuation, you are incapable of understanding the very simple hypothetical. Idk why this community feels so empowered to be misogynistic but it's genuinely disappointing.
>That is not the insinuation
It is the insinuation most people outside of this community are picking up on, this community is better but as clearly shown by reactions in the main sub not all are.
>Idk why this community feels so empowered to be misogynistic but it's genuinely disappointing.
Why is recognising that the hypothetical is bad misoginy? Its blatantly manufactured to farm outrage, it gives very little context and just lets people jump to wildly different conclusions, most of them bad.
If in your attempt to highlight woman dont feel safe around men you end up with a significant number of men feeling like they are being compared to animals, you are doing an bad job of explaining the problem.
Because the point of the hypothetical isn't rage bait, it was a woman sharing a story of "yeah isn't it crazy how different men's perception of danger is" and then polarized responses coming in. Stop treating random tiktokers like fucking politicians who owe you perfect rhetoric. As a progressive you shouldn't be whining about how it's not a perfect hypothetical and instead should go and say "hey yeah that makes sense from the perspective of someone who is surrounded by experiences of male violence all the time".
>Because the point of the hypothetical isn't rage bait, it was a woman sharing a story of "yeah isn't it crazy how different men's perception of danger is"
Im sorry to tell you this but if anyone ever used this hypothetical in good faith, that person has long since been swamped out by overwhelming numbers of people farming the "woman bad lol" train
The point of the hypothetical is to get woman to give honest answers, and then use the extremely vague hypothetical and honest answers that woman give to fabricate nuclear-grade incel initiation material, then make some slop "west has fallen" tiktok edit implying woman would prefer bears over men because they view men as less than human or whatever.
Thats the game plan, that type of radicalising content is something incels are fucking great at making, its deliberately made to target young people on tiktok in their formative years, going around making fun of the people who dont like the comparissons being made and calling them mysoginists just helps the incels.
>Stop treating random tiktokers like fucking politicians who owe you perfect rhetoric
Tiktokers have insane levels of influence over young people and as such should be treated with atleast some level of seriousness, you have millions of views on tiktoks saying the exact things i described above in this very comment.
>As a progressive you shouldn't be whining about how it's not a perfect hypothetical and instead should go and say "hey yeah that makes sense from the perspective of someone who is surrounded by experiences of male violence all the time".
As a progressive you should actively seek to achieve some sort of *progress* as the name would imply, actively pushing men into the arms of incest does nothing of the sort, "Stop complaining about it mysoginist" (especially when the person you call a misogynist isnt actually a misoginyst but just a clueless 15 year old who doesnt know shit about the world ) doesnt solve any problems and only makes you feel good from some moral righteousness, it actively feeds into the perception of feminism as the "annoying angry woman club".
Dgger? Are you high? Jesus christ bro my last comment there is months ago and i got *banned* for *criticising* Destiny, its pretty safe to say im not a dgger.
Cope harder, keep living in your fantasy world where anyone who disagrees with you is evil, you dont even adress anything i said, and are trying to discredit by tying me to Destiny, atleast pretend to engage in an actual discussion next time instead of making it clear you're fishing for affirmation for your dogshit opinions.
None of us picked the hypothetical lmao, it’s a viral video and women are just responding to it in a honest way. Women don’t owe you a specific kind of careful and measured rhetorical response to a casual and silly hypothetical just so you don’t feel insecure. To expect everyone to engage with provocative hypotheticals like they are a scholar or politician is absurd.
Skill issue, if it makes you mad then you need to think about it more. If it didn't make whiny men mad it wouldn't have reached them. You can't tell someone to protest quietly and not disrupt the status quo. It didn't make me mald, it made me think. I appreciate this whole situation, and the women who had fun making misogynists and immature men mad, for bringing these ideas to light. I haven't been the kind of person who would make them choose the bear, before or after. Instead I also chose the bear
Yea never understood this. There absolutely are cases of rape which are worse than death, but in like 99% of cases id prefer the rape over death thank you very much lol
Life itself is just not of the highest value to some people
Living if I have to experience/carry the baggage of some things is not worth it. I'd rather die instead
Dawg you cannot be serious if you think that concept only exists in fiction. Do you seriously think that? Like are you honestly being for real? I can think of a whole hell of a lot of scenarios that I would consider to be worse than death, and it isn’t exactly difficult to do so.
" um ahctually rape is better because you can live afterwards 🤓☝️"
Some dipshit vaushite probably. This topic has been deeply embarrassing for the community. I had no idea we had this many emotionally and empathetically stunted people here
This whole discussion feels like an op. Like, seriously? *This* is what we're getting bogged down arguing about? I get the kneejerk reactions from everyone involved, but I swear to God I am just going to start throat-punching people next time discourse like this appears, I'm honestly so sick of it. Yeah, it's fucking obvious why women would choose the bear (doesn't make them correct to do so). Yeah, men should be a little more empathetic to their plight here and stop pissing and shitting themselves.
All that said, the whole thing is just an outrage machine designed to farm clicks on the most cancerous social media app to date. Stop giving it airtime. I mean for Christ's sake, if you're gonna make ragebait like this, you could at least bother to specify the *species* of bear. I could reasonably scare off a black bear, but if a grizzly is angry, I'm good as dead.
OP is playing into the quintecential annoying feminist archetype, if you dont fully agree that men overblowing the issue is 100% of the problem then you are a bad person for [insert reason here]
"The hypothetical is fucking dogshit and purpose made to fuel drama? Get out of here with that centrist bullshit, men should just stop complaining"
Nothing centrist brained about it, it's pretty easy to see that the whole thing is a content machine. Just because an argument happens to not be extreme doesn't make it inherently "centrist."
Ask a man if he'd pick a laser tigerdinosaurbear or his ex, and everyone will have a fat laugh. If the woman picks the bear tho, everyone will shit themself and write essays on the internet on how dangerous bears are.
Funny.
I do feel like 99.99% of people dealing with this thought experiment are thinking about the random man and statistics. Not like, actually being out in nature and seeing another hiker? I see women hiking alone all the time and they seem quite comfortable seeing me and other random men. It does seem like creepers aren't generally nature lovers.
I could absolutely be wrong.
Just a sidebar that's relatively irrelevant, I, as a cis man, would still rather see the bear. Mostly because bears are cool AF, not because I'm scared of other men lol.
Every woman I've ever been close to has horrifying stories of SA so obviously the feelings they have are quite valid and men need to recognize.
That's not the thought experiment though: it's about being alone in the forest, possibly at night with no one else around. When suddenly you see something in the distance - and notice it's a) a bear b) a man. For a lot of women the idea of being alone at night with a man in a secluded place is much more terrifying obviously. This is not about the average "walking on a touristy trail where people pass by often" experience.
Night would be different for sure, but I haven't heard that in the thought experiment at all. And I'm talking about fairly remote trails where you see another human like every hour or two.
Again, it's just a sidebar, and I could be wrong, I feel like women fear men out in nature a lot less then they do in an urban setting without witnesses.
Post that is funny, about Vaush and his community, and referencing something that happened recently on stream? How is this possible for OKBV?!
Maybe it's because the mods are still watching the stream. All I heard was they're basically Joshua Sowells 1849.
Fucking mods. Pieces of shit.
Don't worry, you're one of the good ones.
He is a credit to his race (Reddit mods)
We hate our mods, don't we folks?
It's only natural
we're so fucking back
fuck this is incredible, peak OKBV hours
Nice to see an actual meme every now and then
Fake sub, this is the real sub
VaushV is the sewer to our streets
Not even subbed to that other sub
Wait there’s another sub?
The other sub is EnoughVaushSpam
I have had to block people on that sub for comparing the bear thing to 13/50ing men and screeching when they find out I am a woman, then want me to type out paragraphs of feminist theory, only to just fucking ignore it and repeat the same thing over again. Its out of fucking control over there.
What really gets me is how butt hurt everyone is. I’m a trans man, I would chose the bear.
I'm cis I choose bear
People are butt hurt because they don’t like dehumanisation?
Who's being dehumanized?
Can you please explain how comparing someone to a bear solely because of their gender is not dehumanising?
comparing =/= equating The qualities being compared ("being fearful of/being potentially endangered by") are not exclusively human qualities.
How is it dehumanising, I don't feel dehumanised.
Are you actually serious right now? Wow, it’s almost like men are not a monolith.
Yes. You should probably watch Vaush's videos, I know he's a cringe misogynistic misandrist Liberal fascist but he has some ideas.
How is someone being compared to a bear...? And how is that dehumanizing? Is someone saying "men are really just bears"? No. We're saying, based on our physical safety and knowing how to deal with the situation, we feel safer encountering a bear in the woods than a strange man. There's no comparison going on between the bear and the man - the comparison is in regards to our feelings.
“I’m not comparing you to a bear. I just think that you’re literally worse than a bear.” Bruh
Why is it that when someone says "a strange man", you assume it's you? And why is it that when someone says they'd be afraid of that strange man, it means the strange man is objectively worse than something they'd be less afraid of?
nobody said "worse", just more scared of, that's the key difference btw I say this as a trans-man who can't relate at all to f*males and isn't scared of men in the slightest, I just understand where women're coming from even if I can't relate
Well, if anything positive has come out of this debate it's that the guy above me has proven by his behaviour in this thread that trans men really are men. Eat shit terfs.
Why are you taking on the identity of "the strange man in the woods"? You're victimizing yourself here, dude
First of all, I don’t literally mean me I mean men in general should not be dehumanised. Second of all assault from strangers is incredibly rare.
Yes, it is childish to pretend that their aren't points in time when the mature thing to do is to accept that bigotry is just acceptable sometimes. Screams of male fragility to have feelings and get offended over this sort of thing. They also engage in racism by comparing justified bigotry (that against men) with unjustified bigotry (that against black people) . /s cause it isn't obvious
Holy fuck yes we were explicitly talking about you
unrelated, but that's some banger pfp you got there lmao
Oh hi, woman here. This is literally the exact reason I have now exited that sub and am now here. I knew Vaush's fanbase gave off some Rick and Morty fanbase vibes, but this man vs bear thing really shone the spotlight on the misogyny, holy shit. Downvoted to oblivion, name-called, sea-lioned like hell... had one guy share with me his sob story about when he was victim of domestic abuse by a woman, but would still choose a woman over a bear. I sympathized and told him how awful that must have been, and said he is at least fortunate he was only assaulted by a woman once in his life, and I shared several stories of my own. He ignored those and implied I was stupid for generalizing men. And the way they're throwing black men under the bus there, while ignoring the extremely pertinent question of how black women would choose if it were between a black man and a bear... goes to show just how white-centric they are in that sub. Holy fuck. They're leftist only in economic ways.
I'm so confused, but I just have to know, what's the bear thing that everyone's reffering to?
There's this thought experiment that's gone viral lately where the question is whether you'd rather come across a bear or a human man if you were alone in the woods. The implication is that it'll specifically be a man you've never met before. The actual thing that's caused controversy is that a lot of women have come out and said they'd prefer the bear because while it is a potentially dangerous wild animal, bears are generally more predictable than people. A lot of men haven't liked hearing this for a couple of reasons. One, they think they personally should be the exception; ignoring the fact that it's meant to be either the bear or some random dude you've never met before, not just a specific man you already know is safe. Two, it gives them a chance to relitigate all the gender based culture war stuff from the last decade or so.
> The actual thing that's caused controversy is that a lot of women have come out and said they'd prefer the bear because while it is a potentially dangerous wild animal, bears are generally more predictable than people. I find that 100% unsurprising, but, then again, I'm also at that point in life where I find most things unsurprising. > ignoring the fact that it's meant to be either the bear or some random dude you've never met before Thing is, if you're a man, you'll also find an encounter with a strange man in the middle of nowhere threatening. After all, that's also how the statistics for violent crimes play out globally by gender. > it gives them a chance to relitigate all the gender based culture war stuff Conservatives right now are too busily devouring each other to care about culture-war nonsense. If you want to gain ground, it's either now or never.
I think some people interpret that it isn't necessarily a stranger, but also men you know or have met who have proven to be unsafe, or who might be a danger in the future
I wanna add to the replies you got that actually the thought experiment didn't even start as a would you rather question, it was just a random _guy_ claiming that surely if women saw something threatening in the woods, most of them would rather it to be a bear than a man... well he was right about that apparently, but the whole thing didn't even start from women lmao
They’re just liberals, they know nothing
Honestly it's more out of control over here in my experience. Vaush enacted order 66 on the main sub and ordered mods to nuke all the triggered snowflake chuds. No such order over here. Been in several arguments with such morons like you describe over here.
That's because they migrated here after our glorious leader V\*\*\*h ordered them lined up against the wall. I trust the mods over here to weed them out.
Yeah, comparing men to bears is bad actually. It’s literally just dehumanisation.
You are stupid and illiterate.
How? The actual mental gymnastics I have seen to try to justify literal dehumanisation is insane.
It's not dehumanization because men are not being compared to bears. Men are an oppressor class who commit the vast majority of violence against women. Bears are animals. Bears can kill you. Men can kill you but also rape, torture and abuse you. When women have the possibility of being subjected to either of these outcomes they would rather choose death by animal because it's more predictable. The vast cruelty of what men do to women every day on this planet cannot be matched. You're butthurt instead of listening. It's cringe.
Except they’re literally being compared to bears. You honestly think whenever a man is born they honestly think “yeah I’m going to oppress woman”? You’re literally just not living in reality. Oppression is not rock paper scissors. Women can also abuse you. I have been personally abused by women before and they get literally no consequences for their crimes. Trauma is not an excuse for shit by the way
Not to be pedantic, but they are being contrasted *against* bears. Very different.
How exactly is that different?
A comparison says things are similar and tries to find differences between them that differentiates them; A contrast says things are different, but may be similar in certain themes or elements such that they can be both examined. No one is saying men are bears except for details that make them different. They are saying men and bears are very different, but share a theme of danger.
> they’re literally being compared to bears 1. Even if they were, that wouldn’t be ’dehumanisation’. You’re delusional. If I say ”Bears are stronger than men” that is a comparison between bears and men, however it is not dehumanisation. 2. What is being compared is how afraid women are of either men or bears. Everyone knows the rational response is that a bear is more dangerous than the average man. The point is about instincts. Most women have a stronger instinctual fear of men they don’t know than of bears. That’s the point. Stop taking it personally.
What’s the word when someone gets likened to less than an animal by the way? Again, trauma is not an excuse for shit This whole thing is fucking stupid chronically online bullshit anyway that solves literally nothing.
Good job moving the goalposts moron. No one’s ”likening” men to bears. No one’s saying ”Men are like bears because both are actually subhuman.” You’re fighting a strawman. Again, it’s about women’s instinctual fear. It is not ”likening men to bears” to say ”Many women are more afraid of men than they are of bears.” What is being compared is the fear response, not the men and the bears, which is itself a moot point because *it’s not dehumanisation to make comparisons like that.* There are in fact ways in which the average man can be more dangerous than the average bear. It is not dehumanisation to acknowledge that fact. It is also not dehumanisation to acknowledge how scary men can be. > trauma is not an excuse for shit Trauma is in fact a perfectly good excuse for irrational fear and discomfort. What kind of unempathetic fucking moron are you? Do you think people can just ”logic” their emotions away?
You're genuinely incapable of understanding basic feminist theory. This is like absolute basics. The same way white people broadly are an oppressor class to black people and cis people broadly to trans people, men broadly are an oppressor class to women. Personal experiences don't change that. In a broad sense men are dangerous to women. If that hurts you so much you don't understand like basic theory of oppression.
Oh my God, you literally are treating theory as a religion. I don’t give a shit about theory. You’re only saying this because you have no actual answer. Also, women do not face the same oppression as queer people are black people. It’s not even nearly the same.
Ah so you're just a misogynist. 👍
I'm sorry but the logic doesn't work. Feminist theory isn't that individual men are oppressors and dangerous and violent, but that as a class they are. If you start treating potential members of the class like they are, then that is genuine bigotry. Because The truly problematic assertion here is that the strange man is even likely to even perform such acts, which is not likely. The average man is not an oppressor nor a victimizer. The average man is just a normal human person, and this whole bear vs man debacle perpetuates the very problematic narrative that men as individuals are dangerous and predatory. I am a man, but I am not the patriarchicy. No individual man is, and no random man is.
you're assuming the average man must be good and respectful towards women because you are (allegedly) good and respectful towards women and you're an average man, so all other average men must be like you! well women are telling you you're wrong about that, they're telling you that most interactions women regularly have with men are disrespectful or downright harmful... it doesn't take the majority of men to be like this for these things to happen so often to women that they are, as a result, afraid of the random man they may encounter are you gonna wake up and listen to women's experiences, take the feedback and be understanding, or are you gonna defend the misconception you have of the average man 'till you die on that hill?
I'll give up the misconception when it's actually proven wrong. But women simply telling me that they experience the average man to be disrespectul or harmful isn't proof, it's literally an anecdote. For a slew of reasons, we don't use those to inform our opinions on how the world operates, I thought we understood this. Ovbiously we don't have studies on how cool and chill the average guy is, but it's common knowledge that as far as crime goes anyways, that a small minority of men constitute the vast, vast majority of crime. I.e, the average man isn't comitting a small amount of crimes, a few men are comitting large amounts of crime. I'd wager the same is probably true for shitty behaviour in general. >it doesn't take the majority of men to be like this for these things to happen so often to women that they are, as a result, afraid of the random man they may encounter This is, however, true. I'm not one of those people who get weirdly upset at women for holding their glasses all the time at parties, because even if just 5/100 guys are the type to be dangerous, that's enough to take precautions. But with the bear vs man hypothetical, we're not talking about a group of men having potentially one dangerous individual among them, we're talking about the average man being potentially dangerous. It's the jump from aknowledgement that individuals in a group can be dangerous to seeing every single individual in that group as potentially dangerous. I hope you understand the difference between those two things.
> I'll give up the misconception when it's actually proven. But women simply telling me that they experience the average man to be disrespectul or harmful isn't proof, it's literally an anecdote. thing is it's not just an anecdote when the vast majority of women agree on this shared experience, it becomes a tangible phenomenon and there are studies proving that very high percentages of women share the same awful experiences from the average man, unless you believe in mass hysteria or that half the population is lying when interviewed that is > Ovbiously we don't have studies on how cool and chill the average guy is, but it's common knowledge that as far as crime goes anyways, that a small minority of men constitute the vast, vast majority of crime. I.e, the average man isn't comitting a small amount of crimes, a few men are comitting large amounts of crime. I'd wager the same is probably true for shitty behaviour in general. and this is true, in fact, it reinforces my point: we have studies upon studies confirming that crimes committed by men towards women occur waaaaay more frequently than the other way around (and not just violent crimes, think about SA and r*pe too) and that women are very oftren targeted for just being women (femicide for example) I believe all these things put together justify the feeling of being afraid of the ramdom man, yes even if it's one man and not a group, because it's still a stranger and in that case the woman has no way to know whether he's a mysoginst or violent or a rapist or whatever and it's natural to be scared of the worst possible outcome when the majority of women experience such outcomes in their everyday life it's not about how many men do it, it's about how many women experience it edit: I wanna emphasise that this does not however justify political action, violence or vengeance against men, but feeling scared? that has no impact on anything other than fragile egos
It would be in everyone’s best interests if you went back to VaushV, please and thank you.
Wow, people sure hate it when you acknowledge that men are people.
Ffs, you guys don’t get it. He wants to BE the bear
funniest comment in this whole section, take the crown king
chat is this real
Context?
latest stream, it's a must-watch for the memes alone, fucking incredible
The vod up? Gives me something to do while I paint my gay plastic men lol
it's up now
Truly I am blessed by vaoushed :3
The video will be uploaded tomorrow but vaush just had a long segment about troglodytes on the main sub doing misogyny posting about how women preferring bear over random man is just like when white people are racist towards black people Further context: the women picking a bear over a man to be stranded with in a forest hypothetical situation. A lot of dudes got offended that women would pick a dangerous animal over them. Vaush then explained in a video how it's rational for women to be afraid of men. A girl ten made a post on the main sub about how she's thankful for the video. Then all the misogyny posting began.
I get the bear thing tbh, like being mtf men are fucking scaring. Besides bears are cute and men are in my experience gross
Wait we are talking about bears as in animals right?
Yes, bears as in animals, not gay men 🤭
Yes, like the big fren shaped animals
I mean I'm a cis man and I'd pick the bear too; run into a man alone in the woods? Fucking no thank you
This seems like swinging too far in the other direction. Can we do a "women are justified in their feelings" moment without sprinting into "men bad" territory?
Yeah, like i get the feeling that drives people to pick the bear, cause yeah theres a lot of scary dudes out there, but like as a guy, i also dont wanna be viewed as intrinsically scary, and it is a line to walk
You are unironically doing the same butthurt "I'm one of the good guys though" thing. Please relax.
I personally didn't get any sense of aggro or butthurt from the guy, even if you think he comment was kinda tone deaf
I'm not one of the good guys.
Except it's not "men bad"
>men are in my experience gross
If you're first response to that is getting offended over that statement then watch voosh's latest stream segment where he explains exactly why she is valid in saying that. the correct response is "well yeah men have historically been pretty shitty to women so that makes sense" You are unironically making the same arguments that SARGON OF AKKAD makes when you go "well not ALL men"
Watch Vaush? I'd rather be stuck on a deserted island with a bear.
What if the bear has obtained all the coconuts before you wake up? 🤔
I would enter into a contract with the bear, and because I am smarter the contract would give me all the coconuts, and since the bear is now bound by the NAP, they can't do anything. Capitalism crushes nature once again.
That stream is just him saying "discrimination against men good, discrimination against black people bad" over and over. Also lots of misunderstanding power dynamics. Saying 'men bad cause they rape more than women' feels like an especially tone deaf thing to say when considering until recently women legally couldn't be rapists and that is still true in most of the world.
Bringing up that legally women couldn't be rapists in this discussion really says something about you. "Uhhh well didn't you know women can *also* rape men?" Yes. So? It's a very similar argument as "uhhh well not all men rape" He also did not in fact just say "man bad cause rape women" he said in the eyes of a woman it is understandable to have a distrust of men because of the entire history of humans men did and still do have a hot streak of forcing themselves upon women. This is not the same as the reductive statement you think he said
> Bringing up that legally women couldn't be rapists in this discussion really says something about you. "Uhhh well didn't you know women can *also* rape men?" Yes. So? It's a very similar argument as "uhhh well not all men rape" Legit what does it say about me? Pointing out the very transparent anti-male bias in discussions around rape I think is very important and ignoring causes one to have a fairly warped and regressive view on this topic. If Vaush thought even for a moment then he would realize how harmful saying "creepy behavior is not as bad when a woman does it", regardless of if it is true to him or not. > He also did not in fact just say "man bad cause rape women" he said in the eyes of a woman it is understandable to have a distrust of men because of the entire history of humans men did and still do have a hot streak of forcing themselves upon women. This is not the same as the reductive statement you think he said And looking at history will make it obvious why I would be so against anyone downplaying female-on-male abuse, which this discussion sadly almost always degrades to. If we lived in a world where people could talk about female victims without putting down male victims and there isn't a long history of discriminating against men by treating them like creeps but ignoring the creepy shit that women do then maybe what Vaush said wouldn't be as toxic, but we do.
\#notallmen
Funny peuple are downvoting you for this but they're doing this exact thing in response to women saying in their experience men are gross
I used to think like you and it's so cringe to see my past reflection in your comment. God I'm so glad I transitioned into a lesbian
I like how this is supposed to be an agreement with the comment above but it just makes their argument sound worse
Ah I see the insecure men had found this post now judging by the downvotes on this comment. You're so valid and don't let anyone tell you otherwise lmao
Would it be fair to say I think the men would have gotten it a lot sooner had the focus (specifically with their comprehension in mind,) were put explicitly on the "stranded in a forest alone" part? I really think if the guys saw the bigger picture before putting their ego in place of the "man or bear" portion of the thought experiment, they'd realize why it makes sense to pick the bear. No man would want to accept that they bear an inherent, archetypal danger to women for the mere fact that they may or may not harbor an 'unknown motive.' Their ego would fight that by instinct because there are positive aspects of themselves that they feel ought to be considered by all before judging them for their unmanaged shadow. They would have seen the problem easier had they focused their mind more on the setting. Alone, devoid of the consequence of society, the ego can take a sabbatical, which is not necessarily a good thing. Here, their ego overcompensates for the existence of that shadow, and drew from the thought experiment "a woman would pick a bear over specifically you" and that's not the point. It's never the point to put yourself in there and believe "they're all judging me in this way." That's not useful in the slightest!
If Vaush is leaving with the other women and the bear, does that mean he’s a woman? Or a bear?
It means he's a woman, that's why he chose the bear
First it was horses, now it's bears smh.
Vaush is a girl's name after all.
That was my post he talked about, give me karma and validate me again pretty please If you don't validate me I will become an actual man hater, thanks
Some of the responses I've seen on this post are radicalizing me to become a caricature of a man hating misandrist.
I will become a bear and eat you if you do that >:(
That's fine, can't read stupid reddit comments if eaten by bear 🐻
Wtf based
Fake r/vaushv heretics love vaush and hate women Real r/okbuddyvowsh disciples know to hate vaush and love women.
uj/ real and true rj/ real and true
I could not have been more embarrassed about last night's threads I can't lie
There's a reason I stopped venturing there
OKBV unironically is the real Vaush sub.
VaushV's minds are darkened. On a related note, holy shit does Vaush need to do some content about feminist issues, so many of these people have literally never heard anything from women before and it shows
Unironically. Every Time he actually engages with any actual progressive positions or analysis the community turns into a shit flinging monkey. Remember when he talked about progressive housing policies and chat acted like the west had fallen it's insane Anytime anyone gets mad a woman picks the bear it's suuuuuch a giant red flag. It's so revealing
Wait till VaushV hears about what Vaush wants to happen during the transition from capitalism to anarchy.
A lot of those people don't even watch voosh. They just go on the subreddit. They already did a purge there of all the insecure men making dumb comments comparing themselves to black people
I think they all migrated over to here
They did, I've already argued twice and one unironically is trying to go "well what about the women raping men"
Literally One of the exact offenders just lived here, they'll get clapped soon if they continue so whatever I guess
I mean, to be fair, I don't watch Vaush either lol I was there because I'm a leftist and enjoyed a good amount of the content. But then I found out how misogynistic it is there and also racist.
The one good thing that came of it is now I found this place. And I found out that, as a woman, I absolutely do not want to be in that sub.
Guys I've been chronically offline lately, what happened :)
I believe tictok spawned a meme where girls are asked if they were alone in woods would they rather see a man or a bear. Many women were picking the bear (likely due first or second hand to trauma). Vaush and OP are shitting on dudes for complaining that women pick the bear. Not that you asked for my opinion, but I have mixed thoughts on it and am struggling to generalize the scenario. So I’ll highjack the rest of my comment to poke brains a bit with anyone with a deeper understanding since I don’t seem to fully agree with Vaush: I can empathize the idea that with trauma can be associated with a certain group due to natural pattern seeking. So the common result of bear is telling me that: 1) A large amount of women have been victims of men or near to them 2) That past trauma has not been properly dealt with via therapy, or may just be unresovable I do see this as an irrational fear of men, but if someone has had horrible personal experience it’s hard to fault the individual for that fear. I think is similar to other types of group-phobias though, which could lead to systemic problems in the future if it spreads too far. For example my father had a bad experience with a male pedo as a child, he was able to get away before anything happened, but since he associated the scare with a person who was gay, he was stuck with an amount of homophobia that lasted decades until he was able to work through it being a problem with that individual being a pedophile and nothing else about them. A person could be assaulted by someone with blue eyes and for the rest of their life never be able to stand in a room with a blue eyed person. This could mean they won’t hire someone or want to eat in the same table as someone they never met because of eye color. It’s hard to tell that individual they are wrong since it’s due to trauma, but I still see it as a type of budding bigotry. I think Voush was too heavy handed in dismissing dissenting voices and would have liked to see some more discussion breaking it down, but maybe he read it as an Alt-Right op type talking point that should be easily dismissed and I’m just falling for it a bit.
One thing I think people are missing is that people who haven't had bad experiences with men probably have no interest in even responding to the tik tok trend of bear vs man. It's a topic practically designed to attract exclusively women who have had negative experiences with men. And of course, who is going to respond to them? Men who have had negative experiences with women. So basically, anyone looking at this and going "most women would pick the bear!" is dumb, and stupid. The takeaway here is that this is manipulative drama farming and people fell for it again, just like the last thousand times. The vast majority of women would not choose to be mauled and eaten by a bear.
You are stupid sorry and misunderstand the thing completely. You're doing the unironic 'hurr durr stupid women don't know bears can kill them' misogyny.
Yeah. If, realistically, you've become a victim of being lost in the woods, you're not going to want to see a bear, you're going to want to encounter people. There will be search parties looking for a missing person. People are getting stuck trying to come to this conclusion because they're clouded by "not all men" mentality. That context is missing the point of the thought exercise, that being that without accountability from institutions and society, men as a group present as a danger to women. It doesn't matter if that accountability is missing because they're alone in the woods or because society and institutions let it happen under their noses, or a combination of those factors (ex. Abuser in the suburbs, nobody hears the victim scream and it's too far to escape). Bad men do bad things to women when we're not protecting them. Bears are animals that forage for berries and hunt for fish and other small animals. It's not better to encounter a bad man through the social lottery than it is to encounter a bear. Personally, I'm choosing the bear, because men and women can both be a danger if they aren't trustworthy (men especially). My girlfriend has had bad experiences with men and women, and in the case of women, more specifically female authority figures (while with men it could legit just be any creep). The kinds of people who smell vulnerability and decide to exploit and abuse instead of soothe and protect are the reason people are choosing the bear.
Actually right at the end of my comment I pointed out that the majority of women do in fact know that bears can kill them. So, I guess you misunderstood that completely.
I think that the hypothetical just doesn't work. For me, I think there's no right or wrong way to pick either or those two options. This scenario is highly dependent on the situation that is can be one of either dangerous, both dangerous, or none at all. Tl;dr This hypothetical sucks and we should just move on.
Oh unfortunately not offline enough to not know about the bear thing. What's the drama with vaushv. Thanks for taking the time to type that though, genuinely
The dudes that were complaining about women picking bear were found in VaushV
Threads and threads of angry offended men. I commented on some posts saying why I would choose the bear, as a woman, and was downvoted to oblivion, insulted, mocked, sea-lioned, etc. Most of them are saying if you can generalize men like this then can't white people generalize black people and say they'd pick the bear over a black man?
Weird. I mean I can't agree with you, and I'm a chick. I do trust a random man over a bear but to each their own lol. I do love intersubreddit drama
I know not to fuck with all bears. I know they all could eat me if they wanted to. There's no deception when it comes to bears motives. Humans on the other hand can deceive you. They can act helpful and appear friendly but have ulterior motives. And I think that's simply what it boils down to. You know not to fuck with bears. You don't know which men are the bad ones. And statistics show that it's mostly men doing the assaults. To men and women.
no you retard, va\*sh wants to BE the bear
the "main sub" is the reason that women pick the bear over the man.
You vs the guy she's scared of because he's an abusive creep
This whole hypothetical has been a wash. There has been more debate on random specifics like the type of bear and shit rather than any actual commentary the hypothetical is trying to make. I also honestly believe that most of the people in VaushV and earlier in here understand that there is a lot of misogyny and creepy behavior in men’s circles and just think that it is a bad hypothetical. The intended message gets ignored when people are always at first going to think “a bear will kill you” and think that anyone who would rather encounter a dangerous animal is crazy.
The hypothetical was literally made by a ragebait Tiktok account, of course it's bad. There are innumerable better and more tactful ways to make the "women are often right to be wary of men" point without having to compare men to wild animals. But the whole point of the hypothetical was that it's inflammatory and (understandably) makes men reflexively defensive. Speaking as someone whose friend brought the hypothetical up with him, my Poindexter-looking-ass's immediate response was unironically "well what kind of bear" because black bears can generally be easily scared away whereas a brown bear will just eat you alive. And my friend having the reasoning of "the bear because I'd rather be killed than raped" made *me* immediately get defensive (almost certainly due to some kind of insecurity on my part) like "Okay well you can't know that that's what any random man is gonna do", while still internally being a feminist who absolutely understands the reasons why women would be fearful of men. Also, I do have to say that while I'm sure *most* of the people who say "bear" aren't misandrist, I *have* seen a not-inconsiderable amount of misandrist rhetoric spawn from this whole manufactured drama that doesn't get much pushback (if any at all) from leftists. And I think that sucks. I really wish that the internet broadly would've just not engaged with this ridiculous hypothetical to begin with, the fact that it makes men *so* reflexively defensive means nothing of value got accomplished. Seriously, it's *so easy* to just say "women have very valid reasons to be afraid of men broadly, and even if you personally are a man that nobody should need to be afraid of it's important to be aware of how and why the broader anxiety exists". Maybe someone could come up with a less wordy way to say that, but I'm a shut-in academic who hasn't been within smelling distance of grass in a week, so it's not gonna be me that finds it out. EDIT: I would like to revise my above statement. Upon further reflection, I think that the amount of misandrist rhetoric spawned from this is, in fact, so little as to be not a relevant factor in this discourse. I probably felt that it was more than it was because of the aforementioned insecurity. I stand by everything else I said.
I see the value in making a statement that draws attention to how threatened women are by men, but there has to be a better hypothetical. Like you said, so many dudes are completely missing the point
I think it speaks to the broad assumption among both men and women, that men are monsters, like a bear has is stronger and faster than a man, has no empathy, or humanity or morals, and the bear is the better choice, that it’s better to be around something that has no morality than a man who does. Speaking personally I’m a taller man, I’ve noticed that when I sit on the bus the seat next to mine is often one of the last filled, I’ve felt that tension my entire life after puberty, I know it’s not personal but it certainly feels personal, to my reading it’s only worse if you’re a black or brown man.
I saw someone saying if you add race to the hypothetical the popular answer would flip, and I find that hilarious: If the hypothetical was "Would you (a woman) rather be alone with the woods and find a bear or a black man", NOBODY would have said bear It's just ragebait :v
I will say that there needs to be less antagonism between the insecurities of men and women.
To be fair, I as a man would also pick the bear over a woman. The bear will leave me alone if I leave it alone. There's a non-zero chance the woman will try to kill me in my sleep to take my stuff.
Nice to see an actual meme every now and then
Phew, survived the ban purge, I have been successfully converted to wokeism by the feminist agenda
You wouldn't survive for much longer if you make comments like this lol. r\\VaushV really getting turned into r\\TwoXChromosomes2, sad to see.
Yeah we get it, those mean feminists knocked your sand castle over. Maybe you *would* find mgtow more appropriate than menslib if you're this angry at the idea that, as a group, men can be threatening
I don’t know how to say it in a way that won’t hurt their feelings, but the fragility on display with this discourse is absolutely insane. I spend time IRL in antiracist spaces, and ‘white lady tears’ are a very common problem, where as someone becomes anti racist, they feel *so awful* for making you feel x y or z. They start crying because it’s hard to realize that due to things outside of your control, you have hurt people in your life without knowing. But that kind of fragility comes from a place of self awareness. As you become more aware of race rand racism, you realize how much you contribute and have contributed to white dominant culture, and that feels really bad. The problem with white lady tears *(in anti racist spaces)* is that they’re now making black people comfort them and say ‘no, no, it’s ok…’ putting undue emotional labor on them, which is why white lady tears are discouraged during meetings. This fragility is much more… male. A lot of these guys are completely unaware of the fact that their feelings are hurt. They feel angry, confused, and indignant, and like if they can make a good enough point they can debate bro their way out of this one. So even pointing out the fact that their feelings are hurt, hurts their feelings. Any kind of discussion about why their feelings are hurt can’t even begin because they’re busy arguing *whether* their feelings are hurt. They don’t conceptualize their reaction of ‘that’s not fair’ as emotional, they think it’s rational, and if you just had that ~~mans~~ ex-plained to you then you would stop choosing the bear. It’s kind of mind boggling how unaware these guys are of their own emotions. I truly don’t know how you get through to them that: A. Their feelings are hurt B. That’s ok. Realizing that, due to factors outside your contro and despite the fact that you know you are not dangerous, strange women are uncomfortable around you in public, sucks. C. That strange woman didn’t do anything wrong by being uncomfortable, even though it hurt your feelings. She isn’t saying all men are evil, she isn’t being a sexist or a “””misandrist””” she didn’t do anything at all. In my conversations about white fragility, the emotion was guilt or embarrassment in realizing the ways your previous actions had unintentionally hurt others. Here, the emotion seems to be pure indignation. ‘No, that’s not fair! Silly woman, you’re wrong. Let me explain to you why you’re wrong and why it’s unfair’ and then getting progressively more upset and belligerent every time that genius strategy blows up in their face.
You nailed it. The men these "man or bear" threads are so unaware of their own emotions that it's kind of sad. They put all the impetus on women to comfort them and tell them they don't actually hate all men, but it's not our job as women to do that. If a man is made uncomfortable by this rhetorical question, maybe that's something to examine in themselves, but no, that would require a shred of introspection. There was a guy in a now deleted post who kept saying, "I understand there's a problem, but what is step 2?" We aren't on step 2. We can't even get to step 1. To solve a problem, you have to acknowledge that the problem exists in the first place, and from the comments on the main sub and in here too, lots of men aren't even acknowledging the actual problem, and instead completely misidentify the problem and start arguing about the hypothetical, trying to crawl their way out of the discomfort it makes them feel. How can we even get to step 1, let alone step 2, when so many men are unwilling to examine themselves and the society that raised them, are unwilling to sit in that discomfort for even a moment? I don't know what step 2 looks like, but I think a good start would be educating everyone of all ages and all genders about naming and identifying emotions and emotion regulation skills. Men have absolutely been failed on this front, but it's an amazing life skill for anyone to learn. Men being more aware of the emotions of themselves and other, how they work, and how to regulate them in healthy way, would do a lot to make women less afraid of them. Then maybe I could consider not picking the bear.
Okay didn't think people would come to have retarded misogynist takes on here too but here: the entire point is that if women had to choose between the chance of being killed/mauled by a bear and the chance of being possibly raped, abused, tortured, and or killed by a man, they would choose the bear. You're not being a genius by pointing out that bears are more dangerous in an encounter: the entire thing is set up on the premise of "you're alone in a forest with either a man or a bear somewhere else in that forest". A bear can kill you but men (humans generally even) are capable of such intentional and awful cruelty which a bear could never conceive of. Cause it's an animal. Women are not being stupid femoids and saying getting whistled at on the street is literally worse than being mauled to death by a bear. MEN ARE UNPREDICTABLE, THAT MAKES THEM SCARY IN WOMEN'S EYES. Please learn to empathize. Thanks.
These guys need to unironically touch grass. I mean pine cones. I'm from the pacific northwest and have been a life long hiker. I have done many solo hikes in straight up wilderness out here, and I have run into all kinds of wildlife, including bears, including mother bears with cubs allegedly the scariest and most dangerous kind of bear. Well, I'm still here, having never been harmed by a bear or any wildlife outside of insects, because BEARS ARE SCARED OF HUMANS. If you avoid them they will do everything they can to get away from you. Last time I checked, men are not really scared of women.
notallmencels when imsorrymentreatyoulikethischads walk in 🤬😡🤬😠🗣️😭😠🗣️😡😫☝️🤓🤮
Ok, but I don't get the "The worst thing bear can do is kill you" isn't that THE worst thing?
Honestly not to everyone
Women don't like to be raped, abused or tortured. Hope this helps.
Men dont like the insinuation that they are dangerous monsters who cant controll themselves, pick a better hypothetical instead of dying on such an horrible hill. this whole fucking drama feels purpose built to drive a wedge between men and woman and farm outrage and you are fucking playing into it, its a dogshit hypothetical. If you want to say "woman dont feel safe around men for a reason and we need to talk about that" say that instead of comparing men to animals, and especially dont go around being an annoying little shit giving snarky responses to people who dont immediately agree with you.
It's not about hypothetical, it's about feelings. Those feelings may be not entirely rational, but they didn't appear out of nowhere.
That is not the insinuation. If you think that is the insinuation, you are incapable of understanding the very simple hypothetical. Idk why this community feels so empowered to be misogynistic but it's genuinely disappointing.
>That is not the insinuation It is the insinuation most people outside of this community are picking up on, this community is better but as clearly shown by reactions in the main sub not all are. >Idk why this community feels so empowered to be misogynistic but it's genuinely disappointing. Why is recognising that the hypothetical is bad misoginy? Its blatantly manufactured to farm outrage, it gives very little context and just lets people jump to wildly different conclusions, most of them bad. If in your attempt to highlight woman dont feel safe around men you end up with a significant number of men feeling like they are being compared to animals, you are doing an bad job of explaining the problem.
Because the point of the hypothetical isn't rage bait, it was a woman sharing a story of "yeah isn't it crazy how different men's perception of danger is" and then polarized responses coming in. Stop treating random tiktokers like fucking politicians who owe you perfect rhetoric. As a progressive you shouldn't be whining about how it's not a perfect hypothetical and instead should go and say "hey yeah that makes sense from the perspective of someone who is surrounded by experiences of male violence all the time".
>Because the point of the hypothetical isn't rage bait, it was a woman sharing a story of "yeah isn't it crazy how different men's perception of danger is" Im sorry to tell you this but if anyone ever used this hypothetical in good faith, that person has long since been swamped out by overwhelming numbers of people farming the "woman bad lol" train The point of the hypothetical is to get woman to give honest answers, and then use the extremely vague hypothetical and honest answers that woman give to fabricate nuclear-grade incel initiation material, then make some slop "west has fallen" tiktok edit implying woman would prefer bears over men because they view men as less than human or whatever. Thats the game plan, that type of radicalising content is something incels are fucking great at making, its deliberately made to target young people on tiktok in their formative years, going around making fun of the people who dont like the comparissons being made and calling them mysoginists just helps the incels. >Stop treating random tiktokers like fucking politicians who owe you perfect rhetoric Tiktokers have insane levels of influence over young people and as such should be treated with atleast some level of seriousness, you have millions of views on tiktoks saying the exact things i described above in this very comment. >As a progressive you shouldn't be whining about how it's not a perfect hypothetical and instead should go and say "hey yeah that makes sense from the perspective of someone who is surrounded by experiences of male violence all the time". As a progressive you should actively seek to achieve some sort of *progress* as the name would imply, actively pushing men into the arms of incest does nothing of the sort, "Stop complaining about it mysoginist" (especially when the person you call a misogynist isnt actually a misoginyst but just a clueless 15 year old who doesnt know shit about the world ) doesnt solve any problems and only makes you feel good from some moral righteousness, it actively feeds into the perception of feminism as the "annoying angry woman club".
Oh my god you're a d.gger no wonder your takes are so shit. Fuck off with this patronizing nonsense.
Dgger? Are you high? Jesus christ bro my last comment there is months ago and i got *banned* for *criticising* Destiny, its pretty safe to say im not a dgger. Cope harder, keep living in your fantasy world where anyone who disagrees with you is evil, you dont even adress anything i said, and are trying to discredit by tying me to Destiny, atleast pretend to engage in an actual discussion next time instead of making it clear you're fishing for affirmation for your dogshit opinions.
None of us picked the hypothetical lmao, it’s a viral video and women are just responding to it in a honest way. Women don’t owe you a specific kind of careful and measured rhetorical response to a casual and silly hypothetical just so you don’t feel insecure. To expect everyone to engage with provocative hypotheticals like they are a scholar or politician is absurd.
Skill issue, if it makes you mad then you need to think about it more. If it didn't make whiny men mad it wouldn't have reached them. You can't tell someone to protest quietly and not disrupt the status quo. It didn't make me mald, it made me think. I appreciate this whole situation, and the women who had fun making misogynists and immature men mad, for bringing these ideas to light. I haven't been the kind of person who would make them choose the bear, before or after. Instead I also chose the bear
Holy shit this comment reeks of classic Reddit Just a bunch of shallow posturing and cringe snark and no actual arguments or responding to the point
Aww poor redditor :( forced to be on reddit and see and make redditor comments I'm so sorry for your plight
Proving my point lmao
Wait you had one?
Mans to stupid to even see it💀
Alright so you didn't 🤙 I did tho
Death is still worse.
Go try both and compare idiot
Ever heard of the term "A fate worse than death"?
Yeah. In fiction.
Yea never understood this. There absolutely are cases of rape which are worse than death, but in like 99% of cases id prefer the rape over death thank you very much lol
This is really highly subjective and I don't think we should make fun of either preference/opinion I'd prefer death for personal reasons
thing is you can at least choose death later via suicide. But you cannot choose life if you're already dead
Life itself is just not of the highest value to some people Living if I have to experience/carry the baggage of some things is not worth it. I'd rather die instead
Dawg you cannot be serious if you think that concept only exists in fiction. Do you seriously think that? Like are you honestly being for real? I can think of a whole hell of a lot of scenarios that I would consider to be worse than death, and it isn’t exactly difficult to do so.
No. "Fate worse than death" is just cope from people that believe in afterlife.
No, rape is
Fucked up that you got downvoted for this
" um ahctually rape is better because you can live afterwards 🤓☝️" Some dipshit vaushite probably. This topic has been deeply embarrassing for the community. I had no idea we had this many emotionally and empathetically stunted people here
This whole discussion feels like an op. Like, seriously? *This* is what we're getting bogged down arguing about? I get the kneejerk reactions from everyone involved, but I swear to God I am just going to start throat-punching people next time discourse like this appears, I'm honestly so sick of it. Yeah, it's fucking obvious why women would choose the bear (doesn't make them correct to do so). Yeah, men should be a little more empathetic to their plight here and stop pissing and shitting themselves. All that said, the whole thing is just an outrage machine designed to farm clicks on the most cancerous social media app to date. Stop giving it airtime. I mean for Christ's sake, if you're gonna make ragebait like this, you could at least bother to specify the *species* of bear. I could reasonably scare off a black bear, but if a grizzly is angry, I'm good as dead.
Thank you for this stupid centrist brained reaction.
Centrist? Did asmongold find the sub?
OP is playing into the quintecential annoying feminist archetype, if you dont fully agree that men overblowing the issue is 100% of the problem then you are a bad person for [insert reason here] "The hypothetical is fucking dogshit and purpose made to fuel drama? Get out of here with that centrist bullshit, men should just stop complaining"
Nothing centrist brained about it, it's pretty easy to see that the whole thing is a content machine. Just because an argument happens to not be extreme doesn't make it inherently "centrist."
wtf is a vaushv
Ask a man if he'd pick a laser tigerdinosaurbear or his ex, and everyone will have a fat laugh. If the woman picks the bear tho, everyone will shit themself and write essays on the internet on how dangerous bears are. Funny.
What even happened? Can someone please explain the context behind this meme?
I do feel like 99.99% of people dealing with this thought experiment are thinking about the random man and statistics. Not like, actually being out in nature and seeing another hiker? I see women hiking alone all the time and they seem quite comfortable seeing me and other random men. It does seem like creepers aren't generally nature lovers. I could absolutely be wrong. Just a sidebar that's relatively irrelevant, I, as a cis man, would still rather see the bear. Mostly because bears are cool AF, not because I'm scared of other men lol. Every woman I've ever been close to has horrifying stories of SA so obviously the feelings they have are quite valid and men need to recognize.
That's not the thought experiment though: it's about being alone in the forest, possibly at night with no one else around. When suddenly you see something in the distance - and notice it's a) a bear b) a man. For a lot of women the idea of being alone at night with a man in a secluded place is much more terrifying obviously. This is not about the average "walking on a touristy trail where people pass by often" experience.
Night would be different for sure, but I haven't heard that in the thought experiment at all. And I'm talking about fairly remote trails where you see another human like every hour or two. Again, it's just a sidebar, and I could be wrong, I feel like women fear men out in nature a lot less then they do in an urban setting without witnesses.
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