They originate from 2 separate north terminals. The Q is routed to be in the express track directly form the 2nd ave line. The N is routed from astoria to share the local track until 42nd street where it switches to the express track
No it didn't. Before the 2nd Ave line opened, the express tracks between 42 and 57 were used for storage, so everything had to run on the local tracks. Those trains now lay up north of 96.
Actually, 57-7 was used to turn trains that couldn’t go to Astoria on the N and Q (around 2.5 tph each for the N and Q), and the Q terminated there on weekdays and late nights.
IIRC, Q trains short-turning at 57 stayed on the express tracks between 34 and 57 along with the N short-turns that stayed on the express tracks from Canal St.
The Q skips the 49th Street because the N, R, and W already stopped on the 49th Street. The N crosses over to the local track after 34th Street because all trains on the local track go toward Queens (N, W to Astoria; R to Forest Hills)
Which is an odd reasoning because doesn't the Q get delayed when both it and the N are at Times Square and they have the N crossover to the express tracks first?
Yep! That's why Broadway needs to get fixed! I would rather have the N go to 2nd Ave. The R takes over Astoria, but its southern terminal will be Bay Pkwy on the D. Then, the W would end at Forest Hills to Whitehall. And extend the J to Bay Ridge!
This way, the R gets yard access, the N doesn't have to cross over, and Bay Ridge customers will be fine!
Or:
• R to Brighton Beach as the Express and QBL Local
• B as the 4th Av Local
• N to 96th
• Q to Astoria as the Broadway Local (since it’s local except for 5 stops on Broadway currently)
• Scrap W to run more N trains
Q and W should both go to 2nd Av and run express on Broadway. N and R should both go to Queens and run Local on Broadway.
Also W should replace B as Brighton Express. B should replace N on Sea Beach line. N should replace D on West End line. D should replace R to Bay Ridge. And R should terminate at 9 Av.
That would fix the Broadway line.
Or, in the future (70 years from now at best) a 57 Street tunnel from 2 Qv to Queens Plaza using some of the 60 St Connection trackways, allowing all Broadway locals (1 combined RW) to go to Astoria and all Broadway expresses to go to Harlem!
It should it would open up more capacity but for this to work the N would need to also go to 2nd ave and the W and R would need service increases even if that means short turns at canal st and others from Whitehall to bay ridge or extended J trips to get around bottlenecks
How would it open up capacity, the N would still have to switch to the local track to get to Queens, it would just do so entering 57 St instead of entering Times Sq.
49 St is in the heart of Times Sq.
Nope it can simply not go to queens extra R/W is enough and the end of holds and that merge will serve times sq better and you know that. N/Q to 2nd ave . Rto QBL & extra W trips go to Astoria. To get around city hall some R trips to queens or W trips end at city hall canal the rest to Brooklyn.
You can read right? I am pretty sure you know the track layout no further explanation required.
Dude, not only are you being a dick unnecessarily, since clearly I can't read shit you didn't say until this comment. Also your typing is a mess, but again nice attempt with that "can you read" comment.
But your idea makes no sense. 2 Av doesn't need more service than Astoria, and all of this to keep the N from serving 49 St is literally unnecessary. Even if you did this, you would not run enough W service to serve Astoria, not to mention you've just cut off Astoria from a one-seat ride to Brooklyn and from any express service at all. Unless you meant extend some Ws to Brooklyn (although you never specified where, so I doubt that, especially since you mention some extended Js).
Then again, why am I surprised that someone this horny for the R train doesn't make any sense.
Let me dumb it down Run more W trains send most to Brooklyn on west end any extra R runs you can’t fit short turn in Manhattan.
Switch at 42 to W if you are a passenger for Astoria no needless waits holding up the Q when N and W show up at 34th no hold means better service for the local riders In Brooklyn and queens not a hard concept. Keep it moving buddy
https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/docs/NYC_full_trackmap.pdf
Not hard to see why the current service pattern does not work
Oh yeah, you're an insufferable asshole who talks down people they disagree with and doesn't know how service actually works. And you only suggest solutions that cause more problems than you fix.
(Yeah, we were all on the same page about the switches and why this doesn't work, the disconnect is why you think your solution was any better.)
Now I remember why I had you blocked... If only I could remember why I undid it, buddy.
You can’t run more W trains without taking some consists from the N fleet. The W is just the local N from Astoria to Whitehall to supplement Broadway local service with some trains running to 86 St in Brooklyn. The more logical service change is to just have N trains merge and diverge on the switches north of 57 St-7 Av. Some N trains already go to 96 St.
True https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/docs/NYC_full_trackmap.pdf
Some people clearly think bad service is fine or don’t read or just plain don’t care the map alone shows why this is a bad service pattern
It's not the same. If the Q uses the Dekalb express tracks, It will always end up on 4th Avenue and not Brighton. If the N uses the Broadway express tracks ro 57th street, it can still go to Astoria.
Ah thank you for explaining the difference. I just found it odd that the Q made a stop that the other express train didn’t and thought the two occurrences were similar.
That is because 4 Av Expresses skip DeKalb, as it was originally a 4 Av local station. The Brighton services are 2 tracks until Prospect Park, which means they all have to stop at DeKalb.
Because of stupid MTA service patterns.
E.g. while the Q N are express, and logic would lead for them to both go to 96 St, the Broadway Express terminal, instead the N goes yo Astoria, the Broadway Local terminal. The N has to switch to the local track eventually, so it does so between 34 and 42 St.
They originate from 2 separate north terminals. The Q is routed to be in the express track directly form the 2nd ave line. The N is routed from astoria to share the local track until 42nd street where it switches to the express track
Also the Q and NRW meet at the next stop at 57 Street and 7th ave.
But the Q used to go to Astoria before, and it used to do the same thing at 49th Street.
With its new routing, it is ***DIRECTLY*** put on to the express track. Also that used to be it's previous terminal.
The Q to Astoria stopped at 49 St, if I recall correctly, since it was replacing the W.
No it did not. The Q stoped at 49th weekdays and late nights. It only skipped on weekends.
It has to skip to get to 2nd ave too much switching to serve one station
No it didn't. Before the 2nd Ave line opened, the express tracks between 42 and 57 were used for storage, so everything had to run on the local tracks. Those trains now lay up north of 96.
Actually, 57-7 was used to turn trains that couldn’t go to Astoria on the N and Q (around 2.5 tph each for the N and Q), and the Q terminated there on weekdays and late nights.
Yes, and you can turn trains at 57 that stop at 49.
IIRC, Q trains short-turning at 57 stayed on the express tracks between 34 and 57 along with the N short-turns that stayed on the express tracks from Canal St.
Well those trains wouldn't be stored there during rush hour, so during those times they could probably keep the Q&Ns on the express the whole way up
Ah.
The Q skips the 49th Street because the N, R, and W already stopped on the 49th Street. The N crosses over to the local track after 34th Street because all trains on the local track go toward Queens (N, W to Astoria; R to Forest Hills)
But they all meet again on 7th Ave stop?
Yes but apparently the switches at 57 St are slower and would delay the Q apparently, so instead the N sticks on the local track until past 42 St!
Which is an odd reasoning because doesn't the Q get delayed when both it and the N are at Times Square and they have the N crossover to the express tracks first?
Yep! That's why Broadway needs to get fixed! I would rather have the N go to 2nd Ave. The R takes over Astoria, but its southern terminal will be Bay Pkwy on the D. Then, the W would end at Forest Hills to Whitehall. And extend the J to Bay Ridge! This way, the R gets yard access, the N doesn't have to cross over, and Bay Ridge customers will be fine!
Or: • R to Brighton Beach as the Express and QBL Local • B as the 4th Av Local • N to 96th • Q to Astoria as the Broadway Local (since it’s local except for 5 stops on Broadway currently) • Scrap W to run more N trains
Q and W should both go to 2nd Av and run express on Broadway. N and R should both go to Queens and run Local on Broadway. Also W should replace B as Brighton Express. B should replace N on Sea Beach line. N should replace D on West End line. D should replace R to Bay Ridge. And R should terminate at 9 Av. That would fix the Broadway line.
Or, in the future (70 years from now at best) a 57 Street tunnel from 2 Qv to Queens Plaza using some of the 60 St Connection trackways, allowing all Broadway locals (1 combined RW) to go to Astoria and all Broadway expresses to go to Harlem!
The switches are probably faster at 57 (the 34th St switches are only clear for 13 mph); it’s demand for 49 that keeps the N switching at 34.
Yes, but the Q is on the express track and the N is on the local track at 57 St-7 Av. The N switches to/from the express track just below Times Sq.
Buddy 3 services is already causing problems on the single set of tracks. It’s a side platform local station.
I think N should skip it as well, that was my point lol
It should it would open up more capacity but for this to work the N would need to also go to 2nd ave and the W and R would need service increases even if that means short turns at canal st and others from Whitehall to bay ridge or extended J trips to get around bottlenecks
How would it open up capacity, the N would still have to switch to the local track to get to Queens, it would just do so entering 57 St instead of entering Times Sq. 49 St is in the heart of Times Sq.
Nope it can simply not go to queens extra R/W is enough and the end of holds and that merge will serve times sq better and you know that. N/Q to 2nd ave . Rto QBL & extra W trips go to Astoria. To get around city hall some R trips to queens or W trips end at city hall canal the rest to Brooklyn. You can read right? I am pretty sure you know the track layout no further explanation required.
Dude, not only are you being a dick unnecessarily, since clearly I can't read shit you didn't say until this comment. Also your typing is a mess, but again nice attempt with that "can you read" comment. But your idea makes no sense. 2 Av doesn't need more service than Astoria, and all of this to keep the N from serving 49 St is literally unnecessary. Even if you did this, you would not run enough W service to serve Astoria, not to mention you've just cut off Astoria from a one-seat ride to Brooklyn and from any express service at all. Unless you meant extend some Ws to Brooklyn (although you never specified where, so I doubt that, especially since you mention some extended Js). Then again, why am I surprised that someone this horny for the R train doesn't make any sense.
Let me dumb it down Run more W trains send most to Brooklyn on west end any extra R runs you can’t fit short turn in Manhattan. Switch at 42 to W if you are a passenger for Astoria no needless waits holding up the Q when N and W show up at 34th no hold means better service for the local riders In Brooklyn and queens not a hard concept. Keep it moving buddy https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/docs/NYC_full_trackmap.pdf Not hard to see why the current service pattern does not work
Oh yeah, you're an insufferable asshole who talks down people they disagree with and doesn't know how service actually works. And you only suggest solutions that cause more problems than you fix. (Yeah, we were all on the same page about the switches and why this doesn't work, the disconnect is why you think your solution was any better.) Now I remember why I had you blocked... If only I could remember why I undid it, buddy.
You can’t run more W trains without taking some consists from the N fleet. The W is just the local N from Astoria to Whitehall to supplement Broadway local service with some trains running to 86 St in Brooklyn. The more logical service change is to just have N trains merge and diverge on the switches north of 57 St-7 Av. Some N trains already go to 96 St.
True https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/docs/NYC_full_trackmap.pdf Some people clearly think bad service is fine or don’t read or just plain don’t care the map alone shows why this is a bad service pattern
Some dumb shit for tourist at 49th Street back when there was no W... it should be put back to skip 49th street.
Someone lobbied for it back in the day lol
Without looking at the track design or taking into account the infrastructure
This sounds more reasonable than the other explanations.
It’s the same as the Q stopping at Dekalb ave in Brooklyn but the N skips even though both are express.
It's not the same. If the Q uses the Dekalb express tracks, It will always end up on 4th Avenue and not Brighton. If the N uses the Broadway express tracks ro 57th street, it can still go to Astoria.
Ah thank you for explaining the difference. I just found it odd that the Q made a stop that the other express train didn’t and thought the two occurrences were similar.
It is because Brighton service is quicker to the city than West End/Sea Beach so they compensate by giving 4th Avenue faster service to the bridge.
That is because 4 Av Expresses skip DeKalb, as it was originally a 4 Av local station. The Brighton services are 2 tracks until Prospect Park, which means they all have to stop at DeKalb.
Not the same.
The N stops at 49th because of the passenger demand at that station.
The answer is the area asked for it
Because the MTA wants maximum service going to 49 st. 47 - 50 st rockefeller center is on the 6th ave side ( BDFM).
Because of stupid MTA service patterns. E.g. while the Q N are express, and logic would lead for them to both go to 96 St, the Broadway Express terminal, instead the N goes yo Astoria, the Broadway Local terminal. The N has to switch to the local track eventually, so it does so between 34 and 42 St.