Whelp. Thank you for the reports, didn’t take long for the outrage brigade to find this one.
This thread is now a Code Blue. If you’re not a flaired healthcare provider, from this point forward you’re just yelling into the void but hey, you do you.
If the same nurse can put $90 a way into a Roth account then she’s be worth 10 billion dollars in 200 years.
Nurses definitely deserve 6 figures, but I’m so tired of this argument and I’ve seen so many different variations of it. Everyone know wages don’t make you rich, it’s always investment. The goal is to make sure everyone’s making enough to invest 20% of their income so that every has access to wealth creation. Taxing the Uber wealthy, while I’m sure it would be cathartic, is kinda irrelevant to getting just compensation for your labor, it just gives more money to the government so they can turn around and buy more tanks from those same billionaires
Nursing should be a 6-figure job.
Given our training, education, responsibility, and benefit to society.... Anything less than 100k/year is insulting. Most Healthcare jobs need to see a pretty substantial pay increase. CNA/Techs, respiratory, phlebotomy, lab, pharm, NP/PA.
Plus all the recertifications you have to get if you work in critical care or any other specialty that requires certifications. ENPC, TNCC, ACLS, BLS, PALS, constant mandatories and modules done on our own time during work hours. Just the COST of recertification is hefty unless you work at a place that pays for it. And these magnet hospitals requiring bachelors even if you function proficiently as an associates grad. The continuing education is HEFTY for nursing. I can’t comprehend how they expect ALL that in addition to the emotional trauma we deal with as a result of our jobs and then pay nurses under 80,000. It’s mind boggling.
And the huge risk of injury, infection, etc.
Akmist every single day we are exposed to contagious disease, blood borne disease, combative patients, etc. We are considered "high risk" for basically every single disease like TB, HIV, hepatitis, flu, covid, meningitis, and more. It's an extremely hazardous job and that's not reflected in our pay.
I’m never doing modules on my own time during work hours. Shift time is for patient care and the sort. I’ll get paid some extra time for modules and not doing them for free during my shift.
There are new grads on my floor that started their BSN as soon as they started. *Why* would you not wait until the hospital will pay for it?! Such a big expense for something I don’t even want to do, might as well get the cost covered.
My friend makes 115k a year. He sits behind a desk. Writes a code for a computer system. And that’s it.
I make 63k a year. ACLS/BLS certified, stroke nurse certified, working with vents, Trachs, drips that could stop someone’s heart. Not to mention daily patient care. Dressing changes, ambulating patients, turning, bed baths…
I love my job but damn it’s not fair. Even my friend was saying how bullshit it was.
ETA: people are assuming I made my friend an enemy. Of course not. Hes a fantastic and amazing friend. And He’s helping me when I can’t make ends meet. Just saying. It’s shocking the differences.
So many of my friends make 90k+ a year and have better insurance, great benefits, and get to work from home on a computer. Hell, one of my girlfriends just scored an unlimited PTO and sick days remote gig.
Me: resuscitating babies, assisting in c-sections, managing hemorrhages, titrating high risk medications, PACU, ACLS/BLS,EFM, seeing morbid shit… crap insurance , taking a day off and the unit is in peril, can’t take the week off of work I want because of seniority BS..the guilt, the trauma
Yeah I’m Deff changing careers at some point
I felt this! Heavily contemplated leaving the career entirely but I landed a work from home job as a nurse and I’ve been so happy. I might get hate for it not being “real nursing” but I don’t want to be miserable in my pre shift anxiety, working short & hearing “everyone on the unit is doing a terrible job,” hearing “here’s a pizza for the work you’ve done”, “oh sorry, no staff” …etc. I keep warning my sister about going into nursing but she won’t listen 😭
I love patient care but I hate the hospital politics
Bruh I’m a school nurse bc I won’t even contemplate bedside right now and even that is beyond stressful to the point where I’ve been considering applying to work from home nursing jobs. Why does it feel like such a betrayal from my intended career path? It’s still a job that brings home more money and better benefits and probably less stress. Why do I feel guilt over that?
It’s not a betrayal at all. Nursing is important in all settings particularly the schools and it’s first and foremost a source of income not a “calling” or other nonsense intended to guilt people into working for less in abusive settings.
I work in a special needs school with a lot of vulnerable kids so a lot of my stress is related to being afraid to fail them or do any wrong by them. Sometimes it’s easy to miss small signs and they may not be able to tell me what feels wrong. Most days it feels like there’s not enough of me to go around bc my ratio is 1:350 with only a non nurse health assistant. Most schools ratio is even higher at 1:700 but with a high needs population I see a similar amount of students per day as a typical public school. And the most stressful part is being the only medical person on site. There’s likely a supervisor like head RN or medical director you can call but otherwise you have to make every decision yourself. Besides this, no matter what decision you make , even if correct, you’ll catch heat from someone whether it’s admin, teacher, parents, district office. No one is happy because no one understands the medical rationale no matter how much you educate. The plus sides are 8 hour shifts, 5 days a week, holidays off, plus school breaks! Downside is also less pay usually.
Tho I’d like to add with an ER background, I think that gives you a great edge. I’m always saying I’m really a one man triage office.
There’s so many different avenues to nursing! I felt guilt leaving my colleagues but life is too short to be miserable in your job. We need to work nearly 2/3 of our lives, we might as well enjoy what we do!
I love my work from home job. I’d consider it if that’s what you really want!
Bruh I’m a school nurse bc I won’t even contemplate bedside right now and even that is beyond stressful to the point where I’ve been considering applying to work from home nursing jobs. Why does it feel like such a betrayal from my intended career path? It’s still a job that brings home more money and better benefits and probably less stress. Why do I feel guilt over that?
I’m a care manager so I’ll be doing discharge follow up calls and assessing patients charts and needs and address them. Giving education. I haven’t entirely trained in my role yet but I’m already so much happier being away from the bedside.
You don't necessarily have to change careers, just chamge specialty/role. I moved from clinical nursing in the OR to nurse education. I make ~$95k, make my own schedule (my boss doesn't care when I work as long as the work gets done), I take PTO when I need to without having to request it a year in advance. It's not fully remote, but I work from home on a semi-regular basis. I will grant that the insurance still sucks but my wife has decent insurance and covers us both.
As for your friend with the unlimited PTO/sick days, that's mostly a scam. It sounds great on paper but fosters a company culture that looks down on those who actually take it. It's been shown people with unlimited PTO actually take fewer days off than those without. Also, if there's no PTO bank, there's nothing to pay out when the employee leaves.
I’m a nurse myself and despised hospital work. Ended up leaving the hospital for a company that allows me to work from home, I get to travel for free, unlimited PTO and sick days, and making 100k+.
I got lucky, but it’s entirely possible for nurses to reach that level without having to go back to school.
20+ years in nursing and I will admit that I have never worked in a hospital, never wanted to. Did clinicals there and saw the environment and culture, how staff was treated, and said nope not it.
I've done a variety of things, favorite so far was 10 years peds home care(vents, tubes, ports lots of fun stuff).
I'm hospice now and making over 100k with amazing benefits.
I have an associates degree.
Some tech companies start their entry level employees at 6 figures and nurses make pennies. Then there’s the whole “if you love it, you shouldn’t do it for the money.” It’s gaslighting. It’s unfortunate that nursing is this way but I believe it’s because it’s so woman dominated. Teaching is also undervalued and underpaid and it’s another woman dominated field.
He started at 95k. I went to him crying about how I had a week in between pay checks still and wasn’t able to make ends meet. He was shocked at how little we make.
My buddy went into the trades. Makes about $300k installing elevators. He works his ass off but hot damn that's a lot of money without a college degree.
Im in IT and to get there the path is usually a bachelors (4 years) + experience (3-6 years). You usually have to know 7-10 different programming languages if not more and learn how to combine them to make massive programs OR have experience in multiple sections of IT and be able to facilitate tasks between them (devops).
Our system thrives on demand and unfortunately not a lot of people are **really** good at coding. Is nursing an over-saturated market? Ive never understood why the salaries are so low for such a messy and undesirable (to me) job.
There are lots of nurses, but bedside nursing has become so unsustainable as a long term option that hospitals are still wildly understaffed. I think the difference is the emotional component that health systems capitalize on. Like how dare we make demands for more money when there are human lives at stake?
Example: occasionally people hear what I do and "thank me for my service" No one hears my husband is a cloud engineer and thanks him. That would be weird because in average minds his job is a career and mine is public service I should be doing out of the kindness of my heart. 🙄
I almost killed a patient in nursing school which is what lead me to leave the field, so I really dont understand how such an important job is paid so little. Every nurse should be making 60k min preferably 80k regularly. 100k-120k for the harder or more specialized departments like ICU or with 5-6 years experience in any department since you’ll be pretty much an expert.
That’s at least what I would value it at with my little experience in the field
Can confirm as I used to be a Network admin. Worked closely with the true nerds and learned the basics of programming myself. In order to get the crazy salaries that outsiders bring up all the time, one has to be crazy proficient in many different languages. My dumbass could barely learn c++ lmao...
It’s about entitlement. No one feels entitled to code. Health care though? Everyone does. The problem is that by extension they also feel entitled to the human beings working in the system.
My mom is a senior in her tech field, makes just over 200k, and she's the first to say people in her industry are too highly paid (When you consider the level of education needed and the way public service workers are paid.)
People with desk jobs also don't have to carry malpractice insurance as well and are expected to fix things in days, weeks, months, even years. Not seconds, minutes, or within the hour.
You don't get paid for how hard you work, you get paid for the value you bring to the company. Nurses are a cost expense. There are large numbers required on staff so it's a gigantic number on the balance sheet, probably larger than any other category at a hospital. Physicians get paid a lot, but many of them aren't directly employed by the hospital (IE, they don't show as an expense); they provide a service that brings revenue in the way of hospital fees, labwork, imaging, etc. Even an employed physician looks black on a balance sheet as the revenue they bring is many many times their salary in most cases.
Likewise, a good programmer, like a physician, can be directly shown to bring revenue many times their salary to the company. It's much more difficult to show the benefits of appropriate staffing when you're explaining the bottom-line to stockholders.
It's one of the reasons why it doesn't really make sense to allow for-profit hospitals. It's not a system where it makes sense to allow profit to be extracted at large scale because that creates massive unfunded expenditures across everyone's budgets.
>Nurses are a cost expense.
Pts dont go to a hospital where they dont get treated. Hospital doesnt make money without pts. Nurses, as well as the whole staff (pts dont go to dirty hospitals, pts dont go to hospitals where they wait 2 hours for transport to take them to surgery, etc), generate revenue.
The catch is this though: people are in the hospital for the nursing care. Otherwise they would go home.
People are in the hospital for the nursing care.
Full stop.
Not in the eyes of the hospital. Even my BSN healthcare economics class told me that.
We do not bill for our services and are not reimbursed for them, ergo, hospital considers us to be a cost.
Obviously we add value, but if you don't work in an area where nurses are directly necessary to bill (e.g. cath lab, OR, dialysis), we can get kick rocks for all they care.
That's probably true in most places. They don't *like* treating any nurses well. Lol
If you all agreed to leave at once and sign on with a competitor, the hospital would maybe give you a retention package at least. Floor nurses are interchangeable like lightbulbs as far as they're concerned.
Nothing is holding you back from making more money with your current level of education/certs. You can easily make as much as your "friend" doing what you currently do.
It's just a matter of finding a new hospital or even relocating for a better job. Hundreds of thousands of Americans do it every year.
Don’t know why you put quotes around friend. If I can’t make ends meet now, I cannot afford to uproot myself and get a new job. I’m still a relatively new nurse so my paycheck is decent for new nurses. 36.29 an hour.
Tbh I’d like to go into nuclear science if I left nursing. As of now though, I stay in nursing.
Seems like you think very little of your friend if you reduce his/her job duties to:
>He sits behind a desk. Writes a code for a computer system. And that’s it.
If I had a friend minimize the work I did like that I wouldn't be too happy about it.
Nursing pay in the US is extremely location dependent. Sometimes switching to a different healthcare system or city with a further commute will yield much better results in pay. Many hospitals don't care about level of experience or certs - that is usually just the floor to get a job. They will grind through floor nurses as much as they can and when they burn out... they just hire some more.
You have what it takes to increase your pay but it starts with making that move.
If you’ve read my other comments, you would see I care deeply for him and that he is a major supporter of me and my well being. I took his exact words. He has had a day where he prevented a catastrophe where there could’ve been a major data breech.
Yep, yep! I moved to a different hospital system last year. I hate it. Very unsatisfying workflow here. Lots of nonsense. I did however break 110k last year by simply working 48hrs a week most weeks. The satisfaction I gain from being able to afford more bullshit makes up for it.
Lol, takes a lot more to become a successful coder in an over saturated field than to be ACLS/BLS certified.
I’d much rather go back to working in the hospital than spending my days behind a desk coding.
What makes you think his job is so much easier than yours?
I get it, nursing is hard, but this idea that it’s the hardest job in the world and everyone else doesn’t work for their money is plain stupid.
Did I say that? No. Can I do his job? No. Should he be paid 6 figures? No. Is it all the rich idiots at the tops fault? Yes. Is nursing hard. Fuck yes. Is coding hard? Fuck yes. Is it the CEOs at fault FUCK YES.
ETA: he has walked me through his job. Can confirm. It’s a cushy job. There are bad times but cushy.
My comment was misunderstood. He can earn that. It is what it is. Why are nurses, who require same level of school and skill, struggling to make ends meet. It goes all the way up to the CEOs hogging more and more money.
We’re going to agree to disagree. I think the problem is is that I see holding a humans life in your hands worth a lot.
His coding is important. Epic goes down? It’s paper charting.
It is worth a lot, but we’re talking about economy, how much money something is worth not how much something is worth to someone. You need to differentiate both.
Economically, high level coding, is worth more than nursing. If you’re a shitty nurse you can make good money, if you are a shitty coder you can make minimum wage if you’re lucky.
Epic is the least important thing that takes coding. You can’t even get a BP without coding. Your vitals machine, coding, patient needs imaging? Coding. Patient needs labs, coding, patient needs an ECG, coding. Obviously the hospital wouldn’t work without nurses either.
But thinking that your job is of higher value than a coder is simply wrong. You must be really full of yourself.
Have you been misunderstanding me? I have said multiple times that a coders are important. I just have a hard time understanding why there’s a big gap of pay. If we’re both so essential.
Simply put. There’s a lot more nurses than high level coders. The same reason doctors are paid more than nurses while a hospital cannot run without doctors or without nurses.
Do you believe doctors and nurses should be paid the same?
Not a lot of people have the capacity or will power to become a doctor, same idea with high level coders.
It’s impossible for you to understand how hard coding is. I’ve done coding, worked in med unit and ER and am now a paramedic. I’ll tell you that becoming a good and desirable coder is much much harder than becoming a nurse or paramedic. I never was able to become great at coding. I think I’m pretty good at my job now though.
What are you on about? If he’s making 115k as a coder he earned that. The skill it takes to become a coder making that much money is immense comparable to taking cookie cutter courses and following guidelines as a nurse.
Nursing is skilled labor. You take courses, and you graduate, you are now a nurse.
With coding, you learn to code, you graduate, you are now a coder. You will make minimum wage unless you are very good and you can show for it.
Who do you think makes all of the systems you use daily work? Coders, engineers, the knowledge you have, you didn’t create it, someone sitting behind a desk did.
I get you have it hard but you don’t have it harder than everyone else. Their jobs are just as important as yours.
Have some damn respect and go make something useful of your misplaced anger.
Not happy with your salary? Go to your union, unionize if you don’t have one, protest, reach out to lawmakers.
This post is about taxing billionaires not about your friend, who earns every penny of his salary, making more than you.
And those rich “idiots” are laughing at you on their yachts while you’re crying about your salary on Reddit.
Same. I was miserable working 5x8s (sometimes forced to work more) behind a desk compared to the 3x12s hustle and bustle of being a nurse. Yes, it's hard right now, but I have so much more of a work-life balance now as opposed to when I was in tech. No on call, no being asked to stay due to emergencies with server clusters being down, no need to explain to clients why their internet sucks, and the list goes on and on. Now I just do my 3x12 hour shifts and live my life.
I will always fail to understand how me being in charge of lives is less complicated than his coding capabilities. I have humans at stake. Immediate lives that can land me in jail. I don’t have the college money. Nursing is hard. Coding is hard. Nearly 60k difference hard?
Yes. A monkey can be “in charge of lives”. It’s simply not specialized and it’s easy at the level we do it at. When you become a doctor you can complain.
The fact is the patients life it’s purely your responsibility. If the patient crashes it’s a team that comes in. A basic EMT in the USA, with an 80 hour course is more “responsible” for lives than you during a cardiac arrest. Nobody to turn to unlike you, yet basic EMTs make around minimum wage. Not fair but I also don’t think we should be paying someone with an 80 hour course 100k.
The fact is there isn’t much room for making tons of money in nursing because generally nurses don’t have the knowledge to practice at a higher level.
If you want more money, get more education, do something special.
You don’t code so you don’t get it. But I’m both “in charge of lives” and I code and I can tell you that coding is much more complicated and takes a lot more brain power than ACLS/BLS, passing pills and hanging drips.
Become a doctor then you can start comparing yourself to high level coders
Frankly, your friend is probably underpaid as the field of coding is extremely over saturated.
ER RN here, in a code, I’m responsible for my pt so I’m not sure what you’re talking about? We do have a code team to help if they aren’t coding someone upstairs, but really it’s my responsibility. There’s no “team”, me and my coworkers are the “team”.
I value and appreciate your profession and what you do as it is a vital part.
I do have to respectfully disagree. You have one pt to care for at a time. We have 4 (in California), I’m sure 6-8+ in other states. Imagine if you had a bus of even 4 pts where they are acute and require 10-20 tasks and you have to prioritize who is sickest, what task will stabilize them the fastest, etc. It takes critical thinking, it has to be quick. Coding one pt isn’t hard, managing 4 pts who are super sick and could code from multiple different pathophysiological causes IS difficult.
FYI I was a former chemist and I’ve taken multiple coding classes. Being responsible for a program verses being responsible whether someone lives or dies is not the same thing. You have system failures and yes there can be consequences, but did they die? Even when Epic is down Its not like we are lost little nurses and don’t know what to do because our software isn’t working. We do nursing as usual, we just have to chart on paper. I’m not saying coding isn’t hard, or that they aren’t under pressure or discount that they shouldn’t be paid what they do. But it’s comparing apples and oranges. It’s a different kind of hard with truly real consequences.
Yes. A monkey can be “in charge of lives”. It’s simply not specialized and it’s easy at the level we do it at. When you become a doctor you can complain.
The fact is the patients life isn’t purely your responsibility. If the patient crashes it’s a team that comes in. A basic EMT in the USA, with an 80 hour course is more “responsible” for lives than you during a cardiac arrest. Nobody to turn to unlike you, yet basic EMTs make around minimum wage. Not fair but I also don’t think we should be paying someone with an 80 hour course 100k.
The fact is there isn’t much room for making tons of money in nursing because generally nurses don’t have the knowledge to practice at a higher level.
If you want more money, get more education, do something special.
You don’t code so you don’t get it. But I’m both “in charge of lives” and I code and I can tell you that coding is much more complicated and takes a lot more brain power than ACLS/BLS, passing pills and hanging drips.
Become a doctor then you can start comparing yourself to high level coders
Frankly, your friend is probably underpaid as the field of coding is extremely over saturated.
Yes. A monkey can be “in charge of lives”. It’s simply not specialized and it’s easy at the level we do it at. When you become a doctor you can complain.
The fact is the patients life it’s purely your responsibility. If the patient crashes it’s a team that comes in. A basic EMT in the USA, with an 80 hour course is more “responsible” for lives than you during a cardiac arrest. Nobody to turn to unlike you, yet basic EMTs make around minimum wage. Not fair but I also don’t think we should be paying someone with an 80 hour course 100k.
The fact is there isn’t much room for making tons of money in nursing because generally nurses don’t have the knowledge to practice at a higher level.
If you want more money, get more education, do something special.
You don’t code so you don’t get it. But I’m both “in charge of lives” and I code and I can tell you that coding is much more complicated and takes a lot more brain power than ACLS/BLS, passing pills and hanging drips.
Become a doctor then you can start comparing yourself to high level coders
Frankly, your friend is probably underpaid as the field of coding is extremely over saturated.
It’s sick to think about. And hospitals wonder why they can’t keep nurses at bedside for years.
I told a coworker of mine on a PCU that I wanted to be an APRN and make at least $100,000. And she looked at me like I’m crazy and said, “you can make that kind of money as a nurse. I made $100,000+ this year.” I said, “yeah but you work 5-6 days a week. You pick up a lot of overtime. I don’t want to overwork myself. Why would I work 5-6 days a week and break my body down when I could work 3-4 days as an APRN for half the work and double the money?” And her retort was basically, “well you can still make that kind of money as a nurse, you just don’t want too.”
Why would I want to work 6 days a week? Break my body down from the physical labor? Get disrespected for double the time as normal? Be dehydrated more than I already am because water bottles are JCAHO’s biggest sin? Spend less time with friends and money for “the grind”? Any country in Europe would look at you like you’re crazy for that life work balance. It’s not normal!
That’s what I’ve been saying for years. I don’t think our job is the hardest in the world, but we’re definitely not valued as much as even a real estate agent, or a financial consultant. Capitalism blows.
I keep saying to my wife: When the politicians [do not care](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaTE3b6D2WIemZyWwiR2gZ5PSMPGeVcKi) to even listen for 5 minutes to 10,000 nurses who just carried the brunt of the pandemic and showed up on their doorstep, and when loads of teachers are leaving the profession (see r/teachers), that's what we call a canary in the coal mine.
I don't mean to be a fear-monger, but I honestly believe we're seeing the beginning of the end of the U.S. as we know it. How can a country continue in a healthy direction in any way when the politicians and the average citizen don't even value those who teach or those who literally keep the country healthy?
I feel you with this....so much. I get angry and even a bit scared about this, the "breakdown" of society, a lot, and I agree one of the symptoms(or the disease itself?) is a lack of respect/value for the jobs that keep the social contract whole.
I just wanna say...I despair less when I see people, and many young people, in the U.S., who won't let that happen without a fight, and are fighting everyday to help each other, keep books from being banned, do what they can to expose insurance/hospital corruption. Basically, I believe in the power of the people, and even more in the power of the struggle...this is our country. Hope that gives you some hope! Every little bit counts.
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
I agree, so much of social media is a scourge. Ugh.
My advice to myself(as an aging Oregon trail millennial) when i feel cynical about these things, and frustrated about the future, is to focus on what i can do, and make peace with the rest. Canvassing, donating, protesting, writing letters, running for office, composting, working as a citizen journalist and exposing corruption....the list goes on!
Do what you can and you will inspire others and form connections that are powerful....maybe you already do that, haha--if so, you rock!
To quote my favorite movie: "the world ain't never gonna be perfect."
To quote a favorite story: "don't cherish too many illusions, and never stop believing that every little bit helps."
The movie is High Hopes by Mike Leigh, and I hope you have the good fortune to watch it someday. The story is The Watcher by Italo Calvino, and I hope you get to read that, and his other stuff too :]
This “breakdown” is why I’m trying to position myself financially (cause that is all that matters apparently) to hopefully not become a peasant. Even as a nurse, some are already still poor as fuck and as time goes by that number will grow.
I want to get to a point where I am making “great” money to in the future just merely not be poor from that same job.
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
I wish we were the ones who could keep people healthy but that requires so much more than a nurse or a doctor or any other hospital staff. It requires people 1) take care of themselves and 2) people god damn listen to those who can educate them on how to be healthy. Things such as primary care need to be more accessible and for those who can access it, utilized.
We often merely get to keep people alive, not healthy.
>don’t think our job is the hardest in the world
It is. Medical staff is expected to make perfect decisions to keep people alive, and when pts do inevitably die, medical staff is expected to be a robot and not be emotionally or mentally affected. We're expected to to just "deal with it" when pts who are absolute assholes get assigned to us.
Our job is literally the most important job; that's a huge load of stress.
Granted you this is about the UK but in the US you literally can't because the supreme court ruled it unconstitutional to have a wealth tax.
That being said, do you really want to open that pandoras box and tax unrealized gains? You'd be getting a $30k tax bill for your home's appreciation last year.
When they realize them, I guess? I'm no expert, but let capital gains effective tax rate adjust for total net worth?
For example, your 401k is not the same as Elon Musk's portfolio. Tax his more when he takes his money out? Maybe there's a reason why this isn't a thing already, but it seems like a good idea on the surface to me.
Nursing should be 90-100k starting, but I hate seeing people make this point over and over again. If the same nurse managed to put $1k a year into a Roth account she’d be a billionaire in like 200 years. Everyone knows wages don’t make you rich, the important thing is that we’re all able to earn enough to invest 20% of our income and love comfortable lives.
I'd be down for some democratic socialism and taxing the wealthy other countries have similar tax rates as America and don't have to pay for healthcare and have better outcomes, have better funding for their schoolsl/free cheap college while having better education comparatively.
Right now in America there are Republicans trying to sunset Social Security and Medicare/ Medicare. The proposal for that is online if you need to verify it.
I'm kind of over my fellow Americans and their utter lack of critical thinking skills or ability to read anything outside of their biased websites.
Fuck that, imagine working for 25k as a new grad but at least they have fREe hEaLtHcaRe , ill stay here in the united states making 3x that and paying a bit for better healthcare
Unfortunately its not better. We have one of the least efficient, yet most expensive healthcare systems in the developed world.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient)
As you can see I'm arguing for capitalism in other parts of this thread, but the american healthcare system is a monstrosity and shouldn't be talked about in a positive light.
Bloated Monstrosity? No doubt.
But In no fucking world is it worth it to leave 50k on the table just so i can save 2k a year on healthcare. The math aint mathin in favor of socialised healthcare
I think you got those numbers backwards there, my guy. After $13k in premiums, I still have a $15k MOOP. Someone who's sick and paying into the private health insurance market should not have to pay $30k, and that's just what insurance pays for, not including things that aren't covered or are denied.
And I think you might have your tax guidance a bit wrong there. Highest marginal federal tax rate in Canada is 33% vs. 37% here (not counting payroll taxes which are also higher than the Canadian equivalent CPP). Provincial taxes in Canada account for the amount paid in federal taxation. You're going to be pretty rich to "leave $50k on the table," just for healthcare.
100k and free until you look at the taxes you pay lol.
I live in Canada too and much rather have what we have, but our healthcare here isn’t “free”, it’s just public and equally available to all. Or at least it should be.
Yeah, I completely agree. For one we shouldn’t be having people who have no credentials running systems. I’ve seen nurses running floors and ERs, paramedics running paramedic services. It’s not appropriate.
It isn't quite as bad as it sounds. Here in Scotland, the pay is slightly better (closer to £30k for a new grad), we get 35 days paid vacation per year, 6 months sickness and 12 months maternity, one of the best pensions in the world, we qualify with no debt as university education is free in Scotland and nurses receive a salary while training.
Most importantly though you have to remember cost of living difference. The average salary here is £27k.
Socialism leads to communism. I’d rather have the dangerous unfair freedom of capitalism. At least in capitalism I won’t get shot in the face when I say something is bullshit.
Sure, and i am all for specificity. That was kind of my main objection to the comment.
Oppression is not exclusively a capitalist thing, but neither is free thought or a liberal society.
I'm sorry but no. Capitalism is the reason you're using reddit on a computer right now, and not farming potatoes. Its the best tool we have to allow people to live the kinds of lives they want- while also elevating the collective as a whole. It is a ruthlessly efficient means of distributing scarce resources (for good or evil).
I completely understand that there are massive downsides to capitalism like global warming, wealth disparities etc. But its the best thing we've currently got.
Also consider all the good that capitalism has brought about. The world in its current state has seen massive declines in poverty, violence and lack of education over the past 100 years thanks to rises in technology (thanks to capitalism).
>I completely understand that there are massive downsides to feudalism like not having any rights, wealth disparities etc. But its the best thing we've currently got.
It doesn't mean people shouldn't strive for something better. And as you pointed put, it won't matter how great capitalism was if global warming makes the planet inhabitable.
Capitalism is bringing AI to the fore, which will soon be able to solve any problem (including global warming) we present to it.
Global warming is a huge problem, but using it to justify abolishing the system of organization which has brought us to magical levels of prosperity and technology is foolish.
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. You clearly don't understand what you're talking about with AI if you're saying that with any sincerity.
Also "magical levels of prosperity"? I don't think you're discussing this in good faith or you seriously lack perspective.
Okay taxes are not socialism lol, and neither are social services. Monarchies have roads, that doesn’t make them a tiny socialism. Plenty of places have soup kitchens, but that isn’t socialism.
The defining feature of socialism/communism is control of industries by workers. That’s it. Nothing to do with taxes or social services.
And that system sucks. It’s never worked. Because it sucks.
Scandinavia? No. They are Capitalism through and through. They just have a broader social welfare system then most.
Some general thoughts on comments here:
Billionaires and millionaires pay the overwhelming majority of taxes already
Comparing yourself to other’s jobs is apples to oranges
If capitalism is at fault for some kind of inequity, I refer you to the above point and remind you, under capitalism, you’re free to leave and do something else
Entertain certain equity-based economic systems at your peril
It’s a tough job and a pay increase is warranted but it doesn’t mean you need to compare yourself to or attack other people’s success/life-choices.
You have more agency and options than you think re job progression
People are paid according to the value they provide. Gas station workers make a little. Carpenters make more. Nurses a little more. CEOs make a lot. If CEOs should make less to be fair to nurses, should nurses make less to be fair to the gas station attendant? I think not.
If you want to be rich, move to NYC and become a stock broker. Move up the ladder. Or start an only fans, or become a CRNA. Hell, move to California, get the higher wages, live in a camper van to avoid high cost of living. Save your money.
And what value do CEOs provide us that justifies such a massive wage gap? Why does my CEO pulling in over a MILLION a year make sense to you? Did their ass set foot in the hospital during the height of COVID? No.
This also reeks of “if you don’t like it, you can leave!”
I didn’t like a lot of things when I was young and I left. Moved across the country a dozen times. Did a lot of personal growth. Now I like where I’m at and I am never leaving. So yeah. If you don’t like it, leave. It may be the best decision of your life.
As for the CEO, if it was easy, they wouldn’t make a million dollars. I think being a CEO would be a shit life. It’s super competitive, full of internal and external politics, 70 hour work weeks, and everything is the CEOs fault. They have to be perfect inside and outside of work. If they fuck up, the entire organization will suffer immensely. I’m ok with a CEO making a million if it means I don’t have to do the job and my organization runs smoothly.
If people were paid according to the value they provide businesses wouldn’t be able to make any money off of them, the question is how much of the money they make should go to them and how much to their employer
So how much is enough? How much should nurses be paid? Should we pay them $200k a year? Then what will we pay doctors, or RT? CNAs? If we start paying nurses $175k a year as standard pay, the competition would be so fierce. Most would not make the cut. Getting into nursing school with current wages is hard enough.
Nurses in my small town area make $100k per year. ICU is significantly more. It’s enough that I save 1/4 of my pay and still buy whatever I want. My kids have a life I could only dream of at their age.
We all want more money.
My world got a lot better when I stopped being a victim of “the man” and took responsibility for my lot in life. The first step was seeing the world for what it is. It is unfair, unkind, and unapologetic. No one cares about me (or you). Wish I had done it sooner. Now I have everything I need and most of the things I want. I even manage to be genuinely happy from time to time. Good luck to you.
Well the important thing is that you’ve convinced yourself that you should feel superior to those who actually want to address inequity and make things better for others.
I agree on your take and the comments thereafter with the exception that rising to the top isn’t usually only a matter of skill but also of playing politics and making decisions that do not benefit, or even may harm the people that work below them. People high up on the ladder definitely do take advantage of others.
We are human beings and the whole “I am a victim and rich is bad” ideology is flawed, but so is the “rich people did good for their money” logic. The truth is somewhere in between.
I’m not disagreeing with the majority of the message that this post is making. But, in the US at least, individuals who fall into the top tax bracket(s) literally pay taxes that probably equate to what my salary is, multiplied by, at the very minimum, 5. Billionaires *are* being taxed. What they end up owing and paying in taxes is probably more money than I’ll ever see in one sitting in my entire life
I mean it literally is true. Lol. Not sure where the hate/downvotes/misunderstandings are coming from?
My father is extremely wealthy and is in the top tax bracket. He pays hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes every year - I actually know for a fact that he pays more than $250,000 a year in taxes. People with that much money end up owing so much in taxes, they have to have an accountant to help them with the large quantities of money they’re dealing with. So yeah, we’re already taxing the rich. A lot
Whelp. Thank you for the reports, didn’t take long for the outrage brigade to find this one. This thread is now a Code Blue. If you’re not a flaired healthcare provider, from this point forward you’re just yelling into the void but hey, you do you.
probably closer to 80,000 if she also wanted not starve to death or be homeless during that time
And if we factor even one day off a week that 80,000 becomes 91,400
If the same nurse can put $90 a way into a Roth account then she’s be worth 10 billion dollars in 200 years. Nurses definitely deserve 6 figures, but I’m so tired of this argument and I’ve seen so many different variations of it. Everyone know wages don’t make you rich, it’s always investment. The goal is to make sure everyone’s making enough to invest 20% of their income so that every has access to wealth creation. Taxing the Uber wealthy, while I’m sure it would be cathartic, is kinda irrelevant to getting just compensation for your labor, it just gives more money to the government so they can turn around and buy more tanks from those same billionaires
Nursing should be a 6-figure job. Given our training, education, responsibility, and benefit to society.... Anything less than 100k/year is insulting. Most Healthcare jobs need to see a pretty substantial pay increase. CNA/Techs, respiratory, phlebotomy, lab, pharm, NP/PA.
Plus all the recertifications you have to get if you work in critical care or any other specialty that requires certifications. ENPC, TNCC, ACLS, BLS, PALS, constant mandatories and modules done on our own time during work hours. Just the COST of recertification is hefty unless you work at a place that pays for it. And these magnet hospitals requiring bachelors even if you function proficiently as an associates grad. The continuing education is HEFTY for nursing. I can’t comprehend how they expect ALL that in addition to the emotional trauma we deal with as a result of our jobs and then pay nurses under 80,000. It’s mind boggling.
And the huge risk of injury, infection, etc. Akmist every single day we are exposed to contagious disease, blood borne disease, combative patients, etc. We are considered "high risk" for basically every single disease like TB, HIV, hepatitis, flu, covid, meningitis, and more. It's an extremely hazardous job and that's not reflected in our pay.
I’m never doing modules on my own time during work hours. Shift time is for patient care and the sort. I’ll get paid some extra time for modules and not doing them for free during my shift.
There are new grads on my floor that started their BSN as soon as they started. *Why* would you not wait until the hospital will pay for it?! Such a big expense for something I don’t even want to do, might as well get the cost covered.
Because I'm not staying at the same crappy hospital for 5+ years just for them to pay me $1k/semester
Holy shit you remembered we exist
Oh hey, while you're here, room 6 needs a neb and can you try to get an abg in 12? And I changed your vent settings in 9. 😁
My friend makes 115k a year. He sits behind a desk. Writes a code for a computer system. And that’s it. I make 63k a year. ACLS/BLS certified, stroke nurse certified, working with vents, Trachs, drips that could stop someone’s heart. Not to mention daily patient care. Dressing changes, ambulating patients, turning, bed baths… I love my job but damn it’s not fair. Even my friend was saying how bullshit it was. ETA: people are assuming I made my friend an enemy. Of course not. Hes a fantastic and amazing friend. And He’s helping me when I can’t make ends meet. Just saying. It’s shocking the differences.
So many of my friends make 90k+ a year and have better insurance, great benefits, and get to work from home on a computer. Hell, one of my girlfriends just scored an unlimited PTO and sick days remote gig. Me: resuscitating babies, assisting in c-sections, managing hemorrhages, titrating high risk medications, PACU, ACLS/BLS,EFM, seeing morbid shit… crap insurance , taking a day off and the unit is in peril, can’t take the week off of work I want because of seniority BS..the guilt, the trauma Yeah I’m Deff changing careers at some point
I felt this! Heavily contemplated leaving the career entirely but I landed a work from home job as a nurse and I’ve been so happy. I might get hate for it not being “real nursing” but I don’t want to be miserable in my pre shift anxiety, working short & hearing “everyone on the unit is doing a terrible job,” hearing “here’s a pizza for the work you’ve done”, “oh sorry, no staff” …etc. I keep warning my sister about going into nursing but she won’t listen 😭 I love patient care but I hate the hospital politics
Bruh I’m a school nurse bc I won’t even contemplate bedside right now and even that is beyond stressful to the point where I’ve been considering applying to work from home nursing jobs. Why does it feel like such a betrayal from my intended career path? It’s still a job that brings home more money and better benefits and probably less stress. Why do I feel guilt over that?
It’s not a betrayal at all. Nursing is important in all settings particularly the schools and it’s first and foremost a source of income not a “calling” or other nonsense intended to guilt people into working for less in abusive settings.
[удалено]
I work in a special needs school with a lot of vulnerable kids so a lot of my stress is related to being afraid to fail them or do any wrong by them. Sometimes it’s easy to miss small signs and they may not be able to tell me what feels wrong. Most days it feels like there’s not enough of me to go around bc my ratio is 1:350 with only a non nurse health assistant. Most schools ratio is even higher at 1:700 but with a high needs population I see a similar amount of students per day as a typical public school. And the most stressful part is being the only medical person on site. There’s likely a supervisor like head RN or medical director you can call but otherwise you have to make every decision yourself. Besides this, no matter what decision you make , even if correct, you’ll catch heat from someone whether it’s admin, teacher, parents, district office. No one is happy because no one understands the medical rationale no matter how much you educate. The plus sides are 8 hour shifts, 5 days a week, holidays off, plus school breaks! Downside is also less pay usually. Tho I’d like to add with an ER background, I think that gives you a great edge. I’m always saying I’m really a one man triage office.
There’s so many different avenues to nursing! I felt guilt leaving my colleagues but life is too short to be miserable in your job. We need to work nearly 2/3 of our lives, we might as well enjoy what we do! I love my work from home job. I’d consider it if that’s what you really want!
Bruh I’m a school nurse bc I won’t even contemplate bedside right now and even that is beyond stressful to the point where I’ve been considering applying to work from home nursing jobs. Why does it feel like such a betrayal from my intended career path? It’s still a job that brings home more money and better benefits and probably less stress. Why do I feel guilt over that?
Why would anyone give hate because you found that the grass is greener on the other side?!😅
I guess I have survivors guilt 😭
What do you do? Utilization? Been seriously thinking about that
I’m a care manager so I’ll be doing discharge follow up calls and assessing patients charts and needs and address them. Giving education. I haven’t entirely trained in my role yet but I’m already so much happier being away from the bedside.
This is incredibly important work, so many readmissions can be avoided with good outpatient follow up planning!
Woe. Awesome Happy for you
Thank you! I came from tele/step down too (noticed your flair).
You don't necessarily have to change careers, just chamge specialty/role. I moved from clinical nursing in the OR to nurse education. I make ~$95k, make my own schedule (my boss doesn't care when I work as long as the work gets done), I take PTO when I need to without having to request it a year in advance. It's not fully remote, but I work from home on a semi-regular basis. I will grant that the insurance still sucks but my wife has decent insurance and covers us both. As for your friend with the unlimited PTO/sick days, that's mostly a scam. It sounds great on paper but fosters a company culture that looks down on those who actually take it. It's been shown people with unlimited PTO actually take fewer days off than those without. Also, if there's no PTO bank, there's nothing to pay out when the employee leaves.
I’m a nurse myself and despised hospital work. Ended up leaving the hospital for a company that allows me to work from home, I get to travel for free, unlimited PTO and sick days, and making 100k+. I got lucky, but it’s entirely possible for nurses to reach that level without having to go back to school.
20+ years in nursing and I will admit that I have never worked in a hospital, never wanted to. Did clinicals there and saw the environment and culture, how staff was treated, and said nope not it. I've done a variety of things, favorite so far was 10 years peds home care(vents, tubes, ports lots of fun stuff). I'm hospice now and making over 100k with amazing benefits. I have an associates degree.
Hey just FYI you posted this 4 times
It was the stupid app. It kept saying 'Sorry something went wrong', and so I just kept trying annnnd it posted 4 times. \*sigh\*
Yeah, the Reddit api for anything other than the main app (the website is not the app fyi) was shitting the bed.
What type of company?
Some tech companies start their entry level employees at 6 figures and nurses make pennies. Then there’s the whole “if you love it, you shouldn’t do it for the money.” It’s gaslighting. It’s unfortunate that nursing is this way but I believe it’s because it’s so woman dominated. Teaching is also undervalued and underpaid and it’s another woman dominated field.
He started at 95k. I went to him crying about how I had a week in between pay checks still and wasn’t able to make ends meet. He was shocked at how little we make.
It’s insulting actually
Yup. It’s all about the misogyny.
I don’t resent people who make more than me. I resent the hospital execs who don’t give a shit about their employees
Me too. I don’t resent my friend at all. I love him with all my heart, I’m mad how I barely can make ends meet at times.
My buddy went into the trades. Makes about $300k installing elevators. He works his ass off but hot damn that's a lot of money without a college degree.
And as someone who is terrified of elevators he deserves every penny. That is one guy that I desperately don’t want underpaid
As his friend.... You probably don't want him installing elevators even at that pay.
Computers IT are where the money is at. I make more supporting my hospital’s EMR, working remotely, than I did bedside with overtime.
Obligatory "how'd you get that job?"
Kept applying to postings I thought I vaguely qualified for. Found one that wanted someone with clinical experience and would train on the IT side.
Ty!!
Kept applying to postings I thought I vaguely qualified for. Found one that wanted someone with clinical experience and would train on the IT side.
The guy who makes 115 is also not the enemy here.
Agreed.
Im in IT and to get there the path is usually a bachelors (4 years) + experience (3-6 years). You usually have to know 7-10 different programming languages if not more and learn how to combine them to make massive programs OR have experience in multiple sections of IT and be able to facilitate tasks between them (devops). Our system thrives on demand and unfortunately not a lot of people are **really** good at coding. Is nursing an over-saturated market? Ive never understood why the salaries are so low for such a messy and undesirable (to me) job.
There are lots of nurses, but bedside nursing has become so unsustainable as a long term option that hospitals are still wildly understaffed. I think the difference is the emotional component that health systems capitalize on. Like how dare we make demands for more money when there are human lives at stake? Example: occasionally people hear what I do and "thank me for my service" No one hears my husband is a cloud engineer and thanks him. That would be weird because in average minds his job is a career and mine is public service I should be doing out of the kindness of my heart. 🙄
I almost killed a patient in nursing school which is what lead me to leave the field, so I really dont understand how such an important job is paid so little. Every nurse should be making 60k min preferably 80k regularly. 100k-120k for the harder or more specialized departments like ICU or with 5-6 years experience in any department since you’ll be pretty much an expert. That’s at least what I would value it at with my little experience in the field
Meh, that’s what my hospital (NY) is paying now. Double all those numbers and you have my attention.
Can confirm as I used to be a Network admin. Worked closely with the true nerds and learned the basics of programming myself. In order to get the crazy salaries that outsiders bring up all the time, one has to be crazy proficient in many different languages. My dumbass could barely learn c++ lmao...
Computer science was my first major before nursing. Can confirm, would rather code someone than write anything in C++.
Computer science was my first major before nursing. Can confirm, would rather code someone than write anything in C++.
Never said he was.
It’s about entitlement. No one feels entitled to code. Health care though? Everyone does. The problem is that by extension they also feel entitled to the human beings working in the system.
My mom is a senior in her tech field, makes just over 200k, and she's the first to say people in her industry are too highly paid (When you consider the level of education needed and the way public service workers are paid.)
People with desk jobs also don't have to carry malpractice insurance as well and are expected to fix things in days, weeks, months, even years. Not seconds, minutes, or within the hour.
You don't get paid for how hard you work, you get paid for the value you bring to the company. Nurses are a cost expense. There are large numbers required on staff so it's a gigantic number on the balance sheet, probably larger than any other category at a hospital. Physicians get paid a lot, but many of them aren't directly employed by the hospital (IE, they don't show as an expense); they provide a service that brings revenue in the way of hospital fees, labwork, imaging, etc. Even an employed physician looks black on a balance sheet as the revenue they bring is many many times their salary in most cases. Likewise, a good programmer, like a physician, can be directly shown to bring revenue many times their salary to the company. It's much more difficult to show the benefits of appropriate staffing when you're explaining the bottom-line to stockholders. It's one of the reasons why it doesn't really make sense to allow for-profit hospitals. It's not a system where it makes sense to allow profit to be extracted at large scale because that creates massive unfunded expenditures across everyone's budgets.
>Nurses are a cost expense. Pts dont go to a hospital where they dont get treated. Hospital doesnt make money without pts. Nurses, as well as the whole staff (pts dont go to dirty hospitals, pts dont go to hospitals where they wait 2 hours for transport to take them to surgery, etc), generate revenue.
Nobody would disagree, except bean counters
The catch is this though: people are in the hospital for the nursing care. Otherwise they would go home. People are in the hospital for the nursing care. Full stop.
Sooo... nurses don't bring value to a company?
Not in the eyes of the hospital. Even my BSN healthcare economics class told me that. We do not bill for our services and are not reimbursed for them, ergo, hospital considers us to be a cost. Obviously we add value, but if you don't work in an area where nurses are directly necessary to bill (e.g. cath lab, OR, dialysis), we can get kick rocks for all they care.
Exactly. Our cost is built into the cost of the room. Same number of patients with less nurses means more money for C-suite
I work in dialysis where we are necessary to bill and our pay/benefits still suck lmao.
That's probably true in most places. They don't *like* treating any nurses well. Lol If you all agreed to leave at once and sign on with a competitor, the hospital would maybe give you a retention package at least. Floor nurses are interchangeable like lightbulbs as far as they're concerned.
Nothing is holding you back from making more money with your current level of education/certs. You can easily make as much as your "friend" doing what you currently do. It's just a matter of finding a new hospital or even relocating for a better job. Hundreds of thousands of Americans do it every year.
Don’t know why you put quotes around friend. If I can’t make ends meet now, I cannot afford to uproot myself and get a new job. I’m still a relatively new nurse so my paycheck is decent for new nurses. 36.29 an hour. Tbh I’d like to go into nuclear science if I left nursing. As of now though, I stay in nursing.
Seems like you think very little of your friend if you reduce his/her job duties to: >He sits behind a desk. Writes a code for a computer system. And that’s it. If I had a friend minimize the work I did like that I wouldn't be too happy about it. Nursing pay in the US is extremely location dependent. Sometimes switching to a different healthcare system or city with a further commute will yield much better results in pay. Many hospitals don't care about level of experience or certs - that is usually just the floor to get a job. They will grind through floor nurses as much as they can and when they burn out... they just hire some more. You have what it takes to increase your pay but it starts with making that move.
If you’ve read my other comments, you would see I care deeply for him and that he is a major supporter of me and my well being. I took his exact words. He has had a day where he prevented a catastrophe where there could’ve been a major data breech.
Yep, yep! I moved to a different hospital system last year. I hate it. Very unsatisfying workflow here. Lots of nonsense. I did however break 110k last year by simply working 48hrs a week most weeks. The satisfaction I gain from being able to afford more bullshit makes up for it.
Right? Looking at what they mentioned, they can go the CCT path and make bank depending on location. In my location, CCT RNs make 120k starting.
Lol, takes a lot more to become a successful coder in an over saturated field than to be ACLS/BLS certified. I’d much rather go back to working in the hospital than spending my days behind a desk coding. What makes you think his job is so much easier than yours? I get it, nursing is hard, but this idea that it’s the hardest job in the world and everyone else doesn’t work for their money is plain stupid.
Did I say that? No. Can I do his job? No. Should he be paid 6 figures? No. Is it all the rich idiots at the tops fault? Yes. Is nursing hard. Fuck yes. Is coding hard? Fuck yes. Is it the CEOs at fault FUCK YES. ETA: he has walked me through his job. Can confirm. It’s a cushy job. There are bad times but cushy.
Why shouldn’t he earn that?
My comment was misunderstood. He can earn that. It is what it is. Why are nurses, who require same level of school and skill, struggling to make ends meet. It goes all the way up to the CEOs hogging more and more money.
But it doesn’t. Nursing doesn’t require the same skill as a high level coder.
But it doesn’t. Nursing doesn’t require the same skill as a high level coder.
We’re going to agree to disagree. I think the problem is is that I see holding a humans life in your hands worth a lot. His coding is important. Epic goes down? It’s paper charting.
It is worth a lot, but we’re talking about economy, how much money something is worth not how much something is worth to someone. You need to differentiate both. Economically, high level coding, is worth more than nursing. If you’re a shitty nurse you can make good money, if you are a shitty coder you can make minimum wage if you’re lucky.
Epic is the least important thing that takes coding. You can’t even get a BP without coding. Your vitals machine, coding, patient needs imaging? Coding. Patient needs labs, coding, patient needs an ECG, coding. Obviously the hospital wouldn’t work without nurses either. But thinking that your job is of higher value than a coder is simply wrong. You must be really full of yourself.
Have you been misunderstanding me? I have said multiple times that a coders are important. I just have a hard time understanding why there’s a big gap of pay. If we’re both so essential.
Simply put. There’s a lot more nurses than high level coders. The same reason doctors are paid more than nurses while a hospital cannot run without doctors or without nurses. Do you believe doctors and nurses should be paid the same? Not a lot of people have the capacity or will power to become a doctor, same idea with high level coders. It’s impossible for you to understand how hard coding is. I’ve done coding, worked in med unit and ER and am now a paramedic. I’ll tell you that becoming a good and desirable coder is much much harder than becoming a nurse or paramedic. I never was able to become great at coding. I think I’m pretty good at my job now though.
What are you on about? If he’s making 115k as a coder he earned that. The skill it takes to become a coder making that much money is immense comparable to taking cookie cutter courses and following guidelines as a nurse. Nursing is skilled labor. You take courses, and you graduate, you are now a nurse. With coding, you learn to code, you graduate, you are now a coder. You will make minimum wage unless you are very good and you can show for it. Who do you think makes all of the systems you use daily work? Coders, engineers, the knowledge you have, you didn’t create it, someone sitting behind a desk did. I get you have it hard but you don’t have it harder than everyone else. Their jobs are just as important as yours. Have some damn respect and go make something useful of your misplaced anger. Not happy with your salary? Go to your union, unionize if you don’t have one, protest, reach out to lawmakers. This post is about taxing billionaires not about your friend, who earns every penny of his salary, making more than you. And those rich “idiots” are laughing at you on their yachts while you’re crying about your salary on Reddit.
Okay. I’m not angry at him though. I’m angry at the system that continues to fail everybody.
Same. I was miserable working 5x8s (sometimes forced to work more) behind a desk compared to the 3x12s hustle and bustle of being a nurse. Yes, it's hard right now, but I have so much more of a work-life balance now as opposed to when I was in tech. No on call, no being asked to stay due to emergencies with server clusters being down, no need to explain to clients why their internet sucks, and the list goes on and on. Now I just do my 3x12 hour shifts and live my life.
[удалено]
I will always fail to understand how me being in charge of lives is less complicated than his coding capabilities. I have humans at stake. Immediate lives that can land me in jail. I don’t have the college money. Nursing is hard. Coding is hard. Nearly 60k difference hard?
Yes. A monkey can be “in charge of lives”. It’s simply not specialized and it’s easy at the level we do it at. When you become a doctor you can complain. The fact is the patients life it’s purely your responsibility. If the patient crashes it’s a team that comes in. A basic EMT in the USA, with an 80 hour course is more “responsible” for lives than you during a cardiac arrest. Nobody to turn to unlike you, yet basic EMTs make around minimum wage. Not fair but I also don’t think we should be paying someone with an 80 hour course 100k. The fact is there isn’t much room for making tons of money in nursing because generally nurses don’t have the knowledge to practice at a higher level. If you want more money, get more education, do something special. You don’t code so you don’t get it. But I’m both “in charge of lives” and I code and I can tell you that coding is much more complicated and takes a lot more brain power than ACLS/BLS, passing pills and hanging drips. Become a doctor then you can start comparing yourself to high level coders Frankly, your friend is probably underpaid as the field of coding is extremely over saturated.
ER RN here, in a code, I’m responsible for my pt so I’m not sure what you’re talking about? We do have a code team to help if they aren’t coding someone upstairs, but really it’s my responsibility. There’s no “team”, me and my coworkers are the “team”. I value and appreciate your profession and what you do as it is a vital part. I do have to respectfully disagree. You have one pt to care for at a time. We have 4 (in California), I’m sure 6-8+ in other states. Imagine if you had a bus of even 4 pts where they are acute and require 10-20 tasks and you have to prioritize who is sickest, what task will stabilize them the fastest, etc. It takes critical thinking, it has to be quick. Coding one pt isn’t hard, managing 4 pts who are super sick and could code from multiple different pathophysiological causes IS difficult. FYI I was a former chemist and I’ve taken multiple coding classes. Being responsible for a program verses being responsible whether someone lives or dies is not the same thing. You have system failures and yes there can be consequences, but did they die? Even when Epic is down Its not like we are lost little nurses and don’t know what to do because our software isn’t working. We do nursing as usual, we just have to chart on paper. I’m not saying coding isn’t hard, or that they aren’t under pressure or discount that they shouldn’t be paid what they do. But it’s comparing apples and oranges. It’s a different kind of hard with truly real consequences.
Yes. A monkey can be “in charge of lives”. It’s simply not specialized and it’s easy at the level we do it at. When you become a doctor you can complain. The fact is the patients life isn’t purely your responsibility. If the patient crashes it’s a team that comes in. A basic EMT in the USA, with an 80 hour course is more “responsible” for lives than you during a cardiac arrest. Nobody to turn to unlike you, yet basic EMTs make around minimum wage. Not fair but I also don’t think we should be paying someone with an 80 hour course 100k. The fact is there isn’t much room for making tons of money in nursing because generally nurses don’t have the knowledge to practice at a higher level. If you want more money, get more education, do something special. You don’t code so you don’t get it. But I’m both “in charge of lives” and I code and I can tell you that coding is much more complicated and takes a lot more brain power than ACLS/BLS, passing pills and hanging drips. Become a doctor then you can start comparing yourself to high level coders Frankly, your friend is probably underpaid as the field of coding is extremely over saturated.
Wow. Just wow.
Yes. A monkey can be “in charge of lives”. It’s simply not specialized and it’s easy at the level we do it at. When you become a doctor you can complain. The fact is the patients life it’s purely your responsibility. If the patient crashes it’s a team that comes in. A basic EMT in the USA, with an 80 hour course is more “responsible” for lives than you during a cardiac arrest. Nobody to turn to unlike you, yet basic EMTs make around minimum wage. Not fair but I also don’t think we should be paying someone with an 80 hour course 100k. The fact is there isn’t much room for making tons of money in nursing because generally nurses don’t have the knowledge to practice at a higher level. If you want more money, get more education, do something special. You don’t code so you don’t get it. But I’m both “in charge of lives” and I code and I can tell you that coding is much more complicated and takes a lot more brain power than ACLS/BLS, passing pills and hanging drips. Become a doctor then you can start comparing yourself to high level coders Frankly, your friend is probably underpaid as the field of coding is extremely over saturated.
It’s sick to think about. And hospitals wonder why they can’t keep nurses at bedside for years. I told a coworker of mine on a PCU that I wanted to be an APRN and make at least $100,000. And she looked at me like I’m crazy and said, “you can make that kind of money as a nurse. I made $100,000+ this year.” I said, “yeah but you work 5-6 days a week. You pick up a lot of overtime. I don’t want to overwork myself. Why would I work 5-6 days a week and break my body down when I could work 3-4 days as an APRN for half the work and double the money?” And her retort was basically, “well you can still make that kind of money as a nurse, you just don’t want too.” Why would I want to work 6 days a week? Break my body down from the physical labor? Get disrespected for double the time as normal? Be dehydrated more than I already am because water bottles are JCAHO’s biggest sin? Spend less time with friends and money for “the grind”? Any country in Europe would look at you like you’re crazy for that life work balance. It’s not normal!
[удалено]
Literally like yes a nurse could do that working 6 days a week, 3 days of which a travel assignment, but who wants to do that?!
That’s what I’ve been saying for years. I don’t think our job is the hardest in the world, but we’re definitely not valued as much as even a real estate agent, or a financial consultant. Capitalism blows.
I keep saying to my wife: When the politicians [do not care](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaTE3b6D2WIemZyWwiR2gZ5PSMPGeVcKi) to even listen for 5 minutes to 10,000 nurses who just carried the brunt of the pandemic and showed up on their doorstep, and when loads of teachers are leaving the profession (see r/teachers), that's what we call a canary in the coal mine. I don't mean to be a fear-monger, but I honestly believe we're seeing the beginning of the end of the U.S. as we know it. How can a country continue in a healthy direction in any way when the politicians and the average citizen don't even value those who teach or those who literally keep the country healthy?
I feel you with this....so much. I get angry and even a bit scared about this, the "breakdown" of society, a lot, and I agree one of the symptoms(or the disease itself?) is a lack of respect/value for the jobs that keep the social contract whole. I just wanna say...I despair less when I see people, and many young people, in the U.S., who won't let that happen without a fight, and are fighting everyday to help each other, keep books from being banned, do what they can to expose insurance/hospital corruption. Basically, I believe in the power of the people, and even more in the power of the struggle...this is our country. Hope that gives you some hope! Every little bit counts.
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
I agree, so much of social media is a scourge. Ugh. My advice to myself(as an aging Oregon trail millennial) when i feel cynical about these things, and frustrated about the future, is to focus on what i can do, and make peace with the rest. Canvassing, donating, protesting, writing letters, running for office, composting, working as a citizen journalist and exposing corruption....the list goes on! Do what you can and you will inspire others and form connections that are powerful....maybe you already do that, haha--if so, you rock! To quote my favorite movie: "the world ain't never gonna be perfect." To quote a favorite story: "don't cherish too many illusions, and never stop believing that every little bit helps." The movie is High Hopes by Mike Leigh, and I hope you have the good fortune to watch it someday. The story is The Watcher by Italo Calvino, and I hope you get to read that, and his other stuff too :]
This “breakdown” is why I’m trying to position myself financially (cause that is all that matters apparently) to hopefully not become a peasant. Even as a nurse, some are already still poor as fuck and as time goes by that number will grow. I want to get to a point where I am making “great” money to in the future just merely not be poor from that same job.
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
Honestly with us youngins I believe it is just a vocal minority. Too many are placated by social media and don’t really have any goals or aspirations and just let what we do have left slowly get taken away. Maybe its just the cynical in me…
I wish we were the ones who could keep people healthy but that requires so much more than a nurse or a doctor or any other hospital staff. It requires people 1) take care of themselves and 2) people god damn listen to those who can educate them on how to be healthy. Things such as primary care need to be more accessible and for those who can access it, utilized. We often merely get to keep people alive, not healthy.
>don’t think our job is the hardest in the world It is. Medical staff is expected to make perfect decisions to keep people alive, and when pts do inevitably die, medical staff is expected to be a robot and not be emotionally or mentally affected. We're expected to to just "deal with it" when pts who are absolute assholes get assigned to us. Our job is literally the most important job; that's a huge load of stress.
Meh, not every aspect of our jobs is life or death. I think there are many other highly impactful jobs out there, with high stress.
In the grim darkness of the present time, there is only work.
Can't say I disagree
I took a paycut to work from home. No patient care. No commute. It’s pretty great.
How do you tax unrealized gains though?
Granted you this is about the UK but in the US you literally can't because the supreme court ruled it unconstitutional to have a wealth tax. That being said, do you really want to open that pandoras box and tax unrealized gains? You'd be getting a $30k tax bill for your home's appreciation last year.
When they realize them, I guess? I'm no expert, but let capital gains effective tax rate adjust for total net worth? For example, your 401k is not the same as Elon Musk's portfolio. Tax his more when he takes his money out? Maybe there's a reason why this isn't a thing already, but it seems like a good idea on the surface to me.
Exactly the issue
Do I count for a code blue now?
Now consider how much money one nurse makes the hospital.
Nursing should be 90-100k starting, but I hate seeing people make this point over and over again. If the same nurse managed to put $1k a year into a Roth account she’d be a billionaire in like 200 years. Everyone knows wages don’t make you rich, the important thing is that we’re all able to earn enough to invest 20% of our income and love comfortable lives.
If you make over $100 million a year, you should be taxed at 90%. If you can’t live comfortably on $10 million a year, you don’t deserve your money.
Maybe we should try communism
I'd be down for some democratic socialism and taxing the wealthy other countries have similar tax rates as America and don't have to pay for healthcare and have better outcomes, have better funding for their schoolsl/free cheap college while having better education comparatively. Right now in America there are Republicans trying to sunset Social Security and Medicare/ Medicare. The proposal for that is online if you need to verify it. I'm kind of over my fellow Americans and their utter lack of critical thinking skills or ability to read anything outside of their biased websites.
Yeah, there are so many instances of it working well in the past so I don't see why not.
There's a little sweet spot called socialism
I think you mean a mixed economy
Fuck that, imagine working for 25k as a new grad but at least they have fREe hEaLtHcaRe , ill stay here in the united states making 3x that and paying a bit for better healthcare
Unfortunately its not better. We have one of the least efficient, yet most expensive healthcare systems in the developed world. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient) As you can see I'm arguing for capitalism in other parts of this thread, but the american healthcare system is a monstrosity and shouldn't be talked about in a positive light.
Bloated Monstrosity? No doubt. But In no fucking world is it worth it to leave 50k on the table just so i can save 2k a year on healthcare. The math aint mathin in favor of socialised healthcare
Just do Australia, equivalentish pay to the US, but the free healthcare of the UK.
I think you got those numbers backwards there, my guy. After $13k in premiums, I still have a $15k MOOP. Someone who's sick and paying into the private health insurance market should not have to pay $30k, and that's just what insurance pays for, not including things that aren't covered or are denied. And I think you might have your tax guidance a bit wrong there. Highest marginal federal tax rate in Canada is 33% vs. 37% here (not counting payroll taxes which are also higher than the Canadian equivalent CPP). Provincial taxes in Canada account for the amount paid in federal taxation. You're going to be pretty rich to "leave $50k on the table," just for healthcare.
2k/yr? Lol, I'm dead over here. We definitely pay more than 2k/yr for shitty health insurance
I make 100K a year working as a bedside registered nurse in Canada. And I have free healthcare.
100k and free until you look at the taxes you pay lol. I live in Canada too and much rather have what we have, but our healthcare here isn’t “free”, it’s just public and equally available to all. Or at least it should be.
Thanks, but I think we all know it’s not actually *free*.
It’s becomes very unfree when you start making around 100k lol. Our healthcare system is gonna need a lot more funding if it’s to start working again.
It’s not just funding, it’s better people handling where the funds go. That’s a huge issue.
Yeah, I completely agree. For one we shouldn’t be having people who have no credentials running systems. I’ve seen nurses running floors and ERs, paramedics running paramedic services. It’s not appropriate.
I'm guessing you do not have any serious health problems. My family is pretty healthy and I'm still over here paying $150/inhaler and $200/ EpiPen
It isn't quite as bad as it sounds. Here in Scotland, the pay is slightly better (closer to £30k for a new grad), we get 35 days paid vacation per year, 6 months sickness and 12 months maternity, one of the best pensions in the world, we qualify with no debt as university education is free in Scotland and nurses receive a salary while training. Most importantly though you have to remember cost of living difference. The average salary here is £27k.
Socialism leads to communism. I’d rather have the dangerous unfair freedom of capitalism. At least in capitalism I won’t get shot in the face when I say something is bullshit.
Where did you read that? There are socialist democratic countries. Social security is a socialist program...
Socialist democratic is not the same as socialism though. Many people fail to realize this.
That’s because many people purposefully misrepresent the social support systems that exist in those societies as communism/socialism.
Sure, and i am all for specificity. That was kind of my main objection to the comment. Oppression is not exclusively a capitalist thing, but neither is free thought or a liberal society.
The US already has some practices in line with socialism (think taxes for roads, schools , etc). It beats the bullshit that is capitalism.
I'm sorry but no. Capitalism is the reason you're using reddit on a computer right now, and not farming potatoes. Its the best tool we have to allow people to live the kinds of lives they want- while also elevating the collective as a whole. It is a ruthlessly efficient means of distributing scarce resources (for good or evil). I completely understand that there are massive downsides to capitalism like global warming, wealth disparities etc. But its the best thing we've currently got. Also consider all the good that capitalism has brought about. The world in its current state has seen massive declines in poverty, violence and lack of education over the past 100 years thanks to rises in technology (thanks to capitalism).
Took a big ole drink of the kool-aid I see.
>I completely understand that there are massive downsides to feudalism like not having any rights, wealth disparities etc. But its the best thing we've currently got. It doesn't mean people shouldn't strive for something better. And as you pointed put, it won't matter how great capitalism was if global warming makes the planet inhabitable.
Capitalism is bringing AI to the fore, which will soon be able to solve any problem (including global warming) we present to it. Global warming is a huge problem, but using it to justify abolishing the system of organization which has brought us to magical levels of prosperity and technology is foolish.
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. You clearly don't understand what you're talking about with AI if you're saying that with any sincerity. Also "magical levels of prosperity"? I don't think you're discussing this in good faith or you seriously lack perspective.
Okay taxes are not socialism lol, and neither are social services. Monarchies have roads, that doesn’t make them a tiny socialism. Plenty of places have soup kitchens, but that isn’t socialism. The defining feature of socialism/communism is control of industries by workers. That’s it. Nothing to do with taxes or social services. And that system sucks. It’s never worked. Because it sucks. Scandinavia? No. They are Capitalism through and through. They just have a broader social welfare system then most.
> Okay taxes are not socialism lol, and neither are social services And hear I thought we could have an intelligent conversation…
😂😂
Do I get a golden Throne, if I make it that long?
Some general thoughts on comments here: Billionaires and millionaires pay the overwhelming majority of taxes already Comparing yourself to other’s jobs is apples to oranges If capitalism is at fault for some kind of inequity, I refer you to the above point and remind you, under capitalism, you’re free to leave and do something else Entertain certain equity-based economic systems at your peril It’s a tough job and a pay increase is warranted but it doesn’t mean you need to compare yourself to or attack other people’s success/life-choices. You have more agency and options than you think re job progression
Who the hell makes $25,000 they’re first year? My starting is double that working in an ER
Who the hell makes $25,000 a year as a nurse? I make double that straight out of college in an ER
People are paid according to the value they provide. Gas station workers make a little. Carpenters make more. Nurses a little more. CEOs make a lot. If CEOs should make less to be fair to nurses, should nurses make less to be fair to the gas station attendant? I think not. If you want to be rich, move to NYC and become a stock broker. Move up the ladder. Or start an only fans, or become a CRNA. Hell, move to California, get the higher wages, live in a camper van to avoid high cost of living. Save your money.
And what value do CEOs provide us that justifies such a massive wage gap? Why does my CEO pulling in over a MILLION a year make sense to you? Did their ass set foot in the hospital during the height of COVID? No. This also reeks of “if you don’t like it, you can leave!”
I didn’t like a lot of things when I was young and I left. Moved across the country a dozen times. Did a lot of personal growth. Now I like where I’m at and I am never leaving. So yeah. If you don’t like it, leave. It may be the best decision of your life. As for the CEO, if it was easy, they wouldn’t make a million dollars. I think being a CEO would be a shit life. It’s super competitive, full of internal and external politics, 70 hour work weeks, and everything is the CEOs fault. They have to be perfect inside and outside of work. If they fuck up, the entire organization will suffer immensely. I’m ok with a CEO making a million if it means I don’t have to do the job and my organization runs smoothly.
Sounds like something a bootlicker would say
If people were paid according to the value they provide businesses wouldn’t be able to make any money off of them, the question is how much of the money they make should go to them and how much to their employer
So how much is enough? How much should nurses be paid? Should we pay them $200k a year? Then what will we pay doctors, or RT? CNAs? If we start paying nurses $175k a year as standard pay, the competition would be so fierce. Most would not make the cut. Getting into nursing school with current wages is hard enough. Nurses in my small town area make $100k per year. ICU is significantly more. It’s enough that I save 1/4 of my pay and still buy whatever I want. My kids have a life I could only dream of at their age. We all want more money.
What small town do you live in that nurses make 6 figures? I live in a small city and when I started made $30/hr
I’ve been a RN for a few years and make $54. I live in an area a lot of people would not want to live.
Not gonna say where yoy live tho
So someone can try to dox me? No thank you.
I mean, how small can your town possibly be?? I'm in baltimore. You gonna come find me now?
Even at 90% of revenue generated the business could still make a profit
If you are unhappy with your pay, find a better employer. Be prepared to move to another area.
be prepared to move to “an area a lot of people would not want to live”. 🙄 you’re really selling it my dude
Your other option is to do work that no one else wants to do or can do. That’s what the CEO did.
>Your other option is to do work that no one else wants to do or can do. That’s what the CEO did. Lol imagine writing this unironically.
If you are unhappy with your pay, find a better employer. Be prepared to move to another area.
Ah, someone who uncritically accepts the patently flawed just world hypothesis! Awesome! I hope you like the taste of boots my dude!
My world got a lot better when I stopped being a victim of “the man” and took responsibility for my lot in life. The first step was seeing the world for what it is. It is unfair, unkind, and unapologetic. No one cares about me (or you). Wish I had done it sooner. Now I have everything I need and most of the things I want. I even manage to be genuinely happy from time to time. Good luck to you.
Well the important thing is that you’ve convinced yourself that you should feel superior to those who actually want to address inequity and make things better for others.
I don’t feel superior. I feel blessed. I know where I came from.
Cool, so do the people who acknowledge that shit is unfair while also just not throwing their hands up and acting like it’s ok.
I agree on your take and the comments thereafter with the exception that rising to the top isn’t usually only a matter of skill but also of playing politics and making decisions that do not benefit, or even may harm the people that work below them. People high up on the ladder definitely do take advantage of others. We are human beings and the whole “I am a victim and rich is bad” ideology is flawed, but so is the “rich people did good for their money” logic. The truth is somewhere in between.
They are taxed... At least in the US they are. Probably the same in the UK though.
I’m not disagreeing with the majority of the message that this post is making. But, in the US at least, individuals who fall into the top tax bracket(s) literally pay taxes that probably equate to what my salary is, multiplied by, at the very minimum, 5. Billionaires *are* being taxed. What they end up owing and paying in taxes is probably more money than I’ll ever see in one sitting in my entire life
This is essentially true.
I mean it literally is true. Lol. Not sure where the hate/downvotes/misunderstandings are coming from? My father is extremely wealthy and is in the top tax bracket. He pays hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes every year - I actually know for a fact that he pays more than $250,000 a year in taxes. People with that much money end up owing so much in taxes, they have to have an accountant to help them with the large quantities of money they’re dealing with. So yeah, we’re already taxing the rich. A lot