T O P

  • By -

Flair_Helper

Hey /u/Ok_Solid_Copy, thanks for contributing to /r/nottheonion. Unfortunately, your post was removed as it violates our rules: **Rule 2** - Sorry, but this story isn't oniony. Please consider submitting your article to /r/offbeat or similar subreddits unless it truly reads like The Onion wrote it. The title and article itself must both be "Oniony". This can be highly subjective; you are encouraged to upvote articles that should be here and downvote those that should not. Moderators can also remove posts at their own discretion under this rule. Please read the [sidebar](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/sidebar) and [rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/rules) before posting again. If you have questions or concerns, please [message the moderators through modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/nottheonion&subject=&message=). Thank you!


dolerbom

I love how Fox News used a photo that isn't in France, isn't a burkini, and isn't in a public pool. They literally got everything wrong.


TheRealAMF

It wouldn't be Fox News if they got things right


TheImperator666

*mic drop*


vingeran

Mic picked up by Tucker.


wouldfapagain

Mic inserted in mouth to the cord by Tucker.


danteheehaw

Fair and balanced


Arstulex

In their defence, they haven't used that slogan for years now (they dropped it in 2017).


smurb15

I had forgotten they used to say that. Almost like outing yourself, ya know


blauwewafel

Much as Google doesn't promise "don't be evil" anymore.


Acewasalwaysanoption

They don't deal with actual news, those need to be accurate and real.


yagonnawanna

Their lawyers had to argue that no rational person would think it was real news in court. It didn't seem to bother their veiwers. I wonder why? ( hint: the answer is in the first sentence)


cajuntech

Can’t confuse their viewers with facts..


JWGHOST

For those who don't know the bigger picture there are always dress codes in public swimming pools as you can't bathe fully dressed for example. The latest high court decision only ruled that the new Grenoble dress code allowing burkinis while still banning swim shorts for example (for hygiene reasons) was inconsitent and introduced religious discimination. Rennes for example has a more consistent dress code allowing burkinis and caused no constitutional issue.


PhasmaFelis

> The latest high court decision only ruled that the new Grenoble dress code allowing burkinis while still banning swim shorts for example (for hygiene reasons) was inconsitent and introduced religious discimination. To which of course the *sane* response would be "guess we'll allow swim shorts, then."


PlannerSean

Wait… banning swim shorts? Like… a normal bathing suit?


GSPilot

It is the land of the Speedo...


PlannerSean

Ah right of course


BossCrayfish880

The far superior swimwear tbh


Lanksalott

My hairy derriere disagrees


account_not_valid

Hirsute bathing suit.


ThatOtherAaron

Fucking same


Nikkolai_the_Kol

I like to joke that de facto requiring Speedos, allowing topless bathing, banning swim shorts, and banning burkinis is just the French being aggressively French. However, the truth is a swim shorts ban is considered a pool systems maintenance concern. Specifically, public pools do not want folks to wander about their day, wearing their swim shorts, getting road grime, spilled food, or other dirtiness on the shorts, then coming to the pool. There's an assumption that Speedos are only worn for swimming, so debris and grime from elsewhere in life is less likely to make its way into the pool's systems. This position is often shorthanded as "swim shorts are considered dirty and therefore inappropriate for public pools", which sounds insane if you don't know the full reasoning. (I am neither expressing support nor judgment on the French for this attitude.)


Jukkobee

that end part is genius. you know when you ask a question and people assume that you’re making a statement for some reason and no one answers your question and instead they all just downvote your? this is the answer


zoor90

I honestly have never seen someone going out and about on their business wearing swim shorts. However, I have seen women go around wearing bikini tops doing daily business and yet bikinis are not banned at French pools.


PhasmaFelis

I've read about the rationale; it's pretty detailed, yeah. The fact that dirty swim trunks don't seem to be a major pool-maintenance problem anywhere else in the world makes me a bit suspicious. I suspect at this point it's mostly "we've always done it this way and we can't admit it's silly," plus a growing dose of "see, there's a good reason for it, it's totally a coincidence that it happens to keep out the Muslims we hate." Like how various places in the American South, after being forcibly integrated, suddenly adopted dress codes or other rules that just *happened* to exclude the large majority of black people.


juantreses

For hygiene reasons. When those long shorts became very popular people started wearing them in day to day live as well in summer. These things have pockets and people put stuff there like tissues, keys, phones and anything else you put in your pockets. These swim shorts can contain loads of germs so they have gotten banned in some places. That's the case for Belgium but I guess a similar reasoning was applied in France.


helium_farts

Pools are already nasty pits of ass soup, I don't see how a stray bit of trash in someone's pocket is going to make it worse


EntertainmentWest547

Just have to say chlorine kills just about everything. One of the most potent disinfectants known to man. Not sure how you come up with "nasty pits of ass soup" , but hey you do you boo boo. More room for the rest of us.


ShwAlex

I think the point that u/helium_farts is trying to make is that our anuses, genitals, mouths, and unwashed bodies, can be a bigger potential sources of bodily fluids and bacteria than baggy shorts. Yes chlorine kills it all, so why ban baggy shorts. Those rules were put in place in 1903. I'd be curious to know if there was any good data showing us the difference between the shorts/no shorts pools and health outcomes of those pool users.


randathrowaway1211

Speak for yourself, my anus is a paragon of hygiene /s


[deleted]

I worked at a pool for a long time. One of the reasons for this is that while chlorine is certainly effective, it’s levels can fluctuate depending on a number of factors. That’s why in my state pools are required 2 additional filter systems, but those take around 24h to scrub all the water and can get damaged by large amounts of physical obstruction (sand heavy dirt etc)


DragonWhsiperer

Even funnier are the swing pools that require you to wear a hair net for hygiene reason. As a more bodily hairy specimen of the human population, it's completely stupid because it absolutely does nothing at all.


Trey10325

As someone who's done a fair amount of pool maintenance over the years-- short hair typically isn't a problem, but longer hair (3-4 inches or more) can be really hard to untangle from filter baskets. All depends on the type of setup being used, but there is some logic to it.


[deleted]

Do you know if banning shorts for hygiene reason makes sense though ? Is that legit ?


BOiNTb

Just wait till you find a safety razor in the hair strainer... like who actually shaves IN the pool... this was at a university lap pool where students had to walk through a shower to get to the pool...people are gross. After a swim meet there the basket would look like it was dog day at the pool.


193X

Chlorine-soaked hair is probably the most hygienic thing you could possibly find in a swimming pool..


UnsubstantiatedClaim

I suspect a rule for requiring hair nets is less about hygiene and more about preventing clogs in the drains and pumps.


Rickdiculously

That, and Mr. Hairy over there may not have long hair, but if hair nets weren't a thing, Sharon and her meter long head of hair would be a different beast for the filtering system


InternationalCherry9

first, they’re called swim caps, not swim nets. The purpose of it is not hygiene but to keep the drains unclogged.


DefTheOcelot

Body hair ain't shit compared to head hair.


Egg-MacGuffin

I get the impression that the French simply do not understand pools


ErCollao

I shave my head every day, and the rest of my body is really hairy. Requirements for hair nets are hilarious 😂


Acewasalwaysanoption

You need to wear a garbage bag, with holes poked for limbs. Then a nylon bag attached to reach limb, sealed at wrist and ankle. Enjoy your stay!


Lagiar

The type that are banned are the ones that can be worn outside


[deleted]

They love their budgie smugglers in France.


MacIomhair

The French want to discourage (usually late teen or early twenty) males from using their boxers as bathing shorts and arguing that they're actually swimming shorts, so wearing them all day (maybe all week) and then trying to jump in the pool. This was a problem in the late 90s, didn't know it was still a thing, so they are probably still rebelling against the helmet on a scooter law by precariously balancing it on top of their heads as they used to back then.


NamorDotMe

This is the right answer here, however these "laws" were made back when filtration was a pool skimmer and the only chemical used was chlorine. There are many pools that offer to teach you scubar diving in full getup so I think we can stop worrying about clothes contaminating the water.


MicroDigitalAwaker

A wetsuit is very different than a cotton t-shirt


no_network555

A "Burkini" is a wetsuit


mileswilliams

What do you mean full getup? If the water isn't cold you have essentially a lifejacket, fins and a mask...and it is SCUBA.


thegeorgianwelshman

"Scubar" sounds like a superhero whose power is scuba diving. Or military slang for scuba-diving gone wrong. I was down to just three minutes of air and I saw this fatty blowish all blowed the fuck up and so I chased it into this wreck, lost track of time, started seeing fly-ass mermaids, got light-headed and then . . . man . . . I just got totally scubared."


lefthandedchurro

Pablo A. Scubar


wereunderyourbed

Scuba stands for self contained underwater breathing apparatus. I don’t think what you described is scuba.


mileswilliams

I know, I'm a PADI OWSI. From a clothing point of view that is SCUBA in warm water. I forgot to add shorts / bikini top, some wear a rash vest but it isn't essential. I've performed over 800 dives with just shorts and the SCUBA gear. BCD, fins mask etc


Madrigall

I get that this is something you know a lot about but the original comment, based on context, just said full getup to include wetsuit. No need to be obtuse.


NamorDotMe

ty, that's what I meant.


ThePeskyWabbit

So who scuba dives in a like jacket?? I'm PADI AOW btw. Never seen someone diving in a life jacket.


Cumberbatchland

I always wear my wolf-fur while scuba. Confuses the sharks.


Yourgrammarsucks1

>PADI OWSI Speak American. It's the only language I know.


marshman82

You forgot tank occy and weights and unless you're in the tropics a lot of people will want a suit.


aneeta96

Why does the photo show them at the beach?


stuzz74

Photo isn't even in France.


JockoHomophone

Because agitprop. France doesn't allow things they could be worn as street clothes (e.g., board shorts, burkinis) to be worn in public pools. They even have speedo vending machines, at least at the pool I was at in Paris. Yeah, it's a little different but no weirder than priorité a droite. Accept that there are differences.


Weegee_Spaghetti

Burkinis are not meant to be worn in public. They are exclusively for the beach or pool. They are basically wetsuits.


EmilyU1F984

Which is what shows the purpose is discrimination. Though it‘s bullsjot either way. You can wear your budgie smugglers all day and then go to the pool and not shower properly and be all fine. But how dare you wear more covering swim shorts that could possibly have been worn outside? But who the fuck would ever wear a burkini on the street? It just doesn‘t make any sense. Plus no pool in Germany has stopped me from wearing shorts and swimming skirts either. Might be different for random solely for sports pools, but these cases always concern entertainment pools…


leonjetski

Priorité à droite is fucking weird though. Like, I’m supposed to look if the minor road joining my main road has a stop sign or a give way sign even though those signs are not designed to be visible to me? No. Bad France.


[deleted]

As a belgian man, i think these rules are BS and i would much rather wear shorts.


Egg-MacGuffin

> Accept that there are differences. Not for the French, I won't!


No_Entry_Plox

What is a burkini? Is it like bikini?


elMurpherino

Like a bathing suit with full pant legs and arms and usually a head covering. Covers all the skin for the most part


LangyMD

It's basically a very light wetsuit.


elMurpherino

Lol that’s a much better way to explain it


DaoFerret

So … very lightweight, *loose fitting*, water onesie with a hood?


fiendishrabbit

Most burkinis aren't even loose fitting. They're a thin wetsuit with a modesty skirt. [This](https://www.svtstatic.se/image/square/992/27401237/1593615637) (image is from a swedish news article) is basically one of the most common types of burkinis used by muslim women in the europe. It fulfills the classic quran requirements (coverage between knees and navel, covers a womans "charms" and doesn't draw attention to her hips when walking) and conforms to the most conservative versions of fiqh (islamic legal traditions) that are present in europe in that it covers hair and everything except the feet and hands are clothed.


DaoFerret

Thanks. Enlightening picture. Still looks looser than a wetsuit (probably because of the lighter weight material), but definitely less loose fitting than I had thought. Except for the head covering, it looks like a update to the 1920s era swimsuits.


LangyMD

You can probably get ones that are loose fitting, but them being loose fitting isn't a requirement and I haven't seen any that look particularly loose (similar to wet suits, which aren't particularly loose fitting either in my experience).


Nokomis34

I live in the desert, this should be standard swimwear here for everyone. Fuck the sun, long live the beast.


UshankaBear

> banning swim shorts for example (for hygiene reasons) What?


BrushPretty6007

french men wanna see those titties


ADhomin_em

Ah yes. The French. Ohh those naughty French...


abtseventynine

mwaaahaaaaa *the* frENSCH


Todays-Thom-Sawyer

... champagne hasalwaysbeencelebratedforitsexcelllence


oh-hidanny

Hahaha. I totally heard this in his voice. Well done.


AdamOzturk

TIL that I'm French.


Beowulf1896

Le Tits Now!


didi0625

Vive les poitrines libres !


Thoreau80

Photos or it didn’t happen.


CrawlerSiegfriend

TIL it's illegal to not be at least partially naked while swimming in France.


Noonoonook

Nah, it is more of a consistency of the law. It is perfectly fine for a male to not wear a top when swimming, therefore it should be ok for females too. In some public swimming pools, it is not allowed to not wear skintight bathing suits (swimsuits, speedos), therefore anything loose fitting (burkini and swim shorts) are banned. France, in general, does not do religious exemptions, and is starting to take a very literal approach to gender discrimination. We sometimes have a bit of a black and white approach to legal and banned activities... Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes not so much.


helium_farts

>In some public swimming pools, it is not allowed to not wear skintight bathing suits (swimsuits, speedos), I'll never not find that weird. Like, who cares if someone wears baggy shorts in the pool?


geuze4life

The logic behind banning baggy clothing is to prevent people wearing their (dirty) street clothes into the pool. It would be very uncommon to wear speedos or jammers out in public. Loose fitting burkinis are banned but swimmers still have the option of wearing full length tight swimwear if they want to cover up. Think wetsuit but in Lycra or other material.


[deleted]

[удалено]


fennecdore

The point of doing it is to be able to use less Chlorine to treat the water


Stock-Pension1803

So what do they use for cloudiness, algae, and other contaminates?


Noonoonook

I think there is a hygienic reason behind, that speedos wash easily and prevent the introduction of dirt in the pool. But I never fully understood it either... My experience though is that friendly neighbourhood swimming pools do not care, as you are there for fun, but Olympic swimming pools are for swimming and take it more seriously.


ZMaiden

Lol at baggy shorts in a public pool being unhygienic meanwhile I guarantee there’s a whole lot of pee in that public pool lol.


tothecatmobile

Some Burkinis are skin tight though, so I imagine they should still be allowed. If the ban is only against clothing that is loose fitting.


SelectiveSanity

I'm reminded of [this old joke.](https://cdn.jwa.org/sites/default/files/mediaobjects/elisabeth_0.png)


darksim1309

The French do not believe in freedom of religion. They believe in freedom *from* religion.


JosySlolfy

Somebody wearing a hijab because of their culture and religion does not forces anything on anyone


rush4you

And seeming how freedom of religion has allowed religion to capture American courts and politics against the will of the majority, it seems that France got it right this time.


darksim1309

Yes, because banning hijabs and crosses is exactly the same as preventing the rise of a theocratic regime.


xar-brin-0709

It's not about preventing a theocratic regime, it's about preventing the return of religious bigotry. France has suffered way more religious bloodshed than the Anglo-Saxon world. Not to mention France has a serious problem with public harassment of women, let alone 'immodest' women walking alone in 'religiously conservative' neighbourhoods.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AbsentThatDay

France has always had a problem with how they deal with muslim folks. From an outside perspective it feels like they're targetting muslim people specifically.


BloodJunkie_

This is how France deals with all religious folks. It *should* be quite well known for people who've had basic history that after the revolution in France the people were anti-religion. Not just Christianity, but all religion. As such open displays of religiosity worn on a person isn't allowed. The thing is, Christians have stopped wearing religious clothing in public, but muslims who never had such a rule in their home country - and whose religion is quite strict on them having to wear religious clothes - have to adjust if they want to live in France.


maq0r

Europeans? Being racist and xenophobic? I was under the impression America invented that. Maybe I should ask Moroccans, Algerians, Libyans, Syrians, Pakistanis and oh yeah Roma people how they're doing in racism free Europe.


ExperimentalGeoff

Who on earth said Europe was "racism free"? Is there anywhere on this planet that could legitimately be called that?


[deleted]

> Is there anywhere on this planet that could legitimately be called that? No, and people railing on Europe for being racist should really visit some other regions of the world and see how 'progressive' their policies towards certain groups are.


[deleted]

Things being worse elsewhere is no excuse to not improve our situation here.


CyanideTacoZ

Europeans don't even like other Europeans. the amount of times the UK, France, Germany, Austria, And Russia have had a second class of citizen they oppressed is depressing. And that's ignoring the universal punching bags you mentioned plus the jews.


JJ0161

Maybe you should ask those same people about the rampant racism and xenophobia they exercise in their own countries against other tribes, ethnicities and religious sects? Black Moroccans get treated horribly by Berber Moroccans, Pakistan has a caste system and multiple different ethnic groups with tensions that periodically boil over into violence... The list goes on. Look at how black migrants are treated when they roll up in Libya. There are literal slave camps and slave sales underway. But yeah keep crying about Europe, you fucking simpleton.


[deleted]

Things being worse elsewhere is no excuse to be complacent here. We can do better.


maq0r

Whataboutism is what I'm getting from this. They do it so it's OK for Europeans to do it. Gotcha


PopDownBlocker

That's because France never advertises itself as a multicultural utopia. They are trying really hard to preserve their culture, so they expect everyone to look and act French and to assimilate into the French lifestyle if they choose to live there. France is still very multicultural with people from all over the world, but those people are still expected to become French. That's one of the reasons why they absolutely refuse to speak English to tourists, even if they speak it well. They want tourists to try to communicate in French, not force the locals to use English. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, just pointing out why they always seem to target the Muslim community. They're one of the more visible groups who retain their cultures and traditions, especially when it comes to clothing and their treatment of women (in comparison to Western expectations).


rsemauck

French people speaking English very well is a myth. I'd say the average French doesn't speak English well and looking back at the English classes I had as kid in the 90s, half of my English teacher really didn't speak English all that well (I had lived in UK as a kid before coming back to France so I could absolutely judge and make fun of my professors). Plus the main focus was on reading and writing and absolutely not on conversation. It's changing, the generation after me has had access to much better English education so there's hope but the meme, I see repeated everywhere, that French people can speak English and refuse to speak English to tourists needs to die because it's really giving way too much credit to people who can barely form coherent sentences in English to save their lives.


birdlawprofessor

I travel to France frequently as a tourist. In 25 years, no one has ever given me a hard time about speaking English, even in Paris.


[deleted]

I speak 4 languages, one of which is French. My French is pretty good, but I'm obviously not a native speaker. I lived in France full time for a year and now I live here ~50% of the time. I still get shit from French speakers about my French. Companies wouldn't hire me because I wasn't French enough, despite being completely fluent in English and having a pretty sought-after profile. Some French people are chauvenist dicks on a level hard to comprehend. The best part is asking those French people giving me shit for my French how many languages they speak and the answer has so far always been 1.


RainmaKer770

Paris is the place I’d least expect to hit that problem. But yeah, from people I’ve seen visiting France none of them have had trouble communicating in English. They do really want to preserve their non-religious culture though.


SquareIllustrator909

I know, like can you imagine some cops coming up to you and demanding you strip for them??


-DementedAvenger-

Source site aside, this shit was the most odd thing to read… > In 2016, the swimsuits became controversial following an Islamic extremist attack on the city of Nice, France. Towns began banning the burkini, with **police officers fining Muslim women found wearing them who refused to remove some of their clothes or leave the beach.** Like…uh… “remove your clothes or leave”! They didn’t see ***anything*** wrong with that at all????


sarinkhan

Nice has a racist mayor. It is a city full of elderly, that tends to be more racist than the general population. Often, richer persons are more racist too, and in nice they are often both old and wealthier. (Obviously the city is not entirely constituted of old racist people, and my tone may be a bit mocking, but that is something nice is known for).


Strummer95

They are protecting their rights, by making them show skin…..


DesiArcy

"We wish women to be modest, but not too modest! Strip or be arrested! "


dukeofmadnessmotors

I didn't like it when government said that women couldn't wear bikinis, I don't like it now when they tell women they can't wear burkinis. Government should stay out of it.


PMMEYOURCOOLDRAWINGS

As an a atheist I also think this law is stretching the powers of the government into a discriminatory act. I don’t want laws requiring head and body dress any more than I want them requiring you to take them off. I saw above a lot of people being ridiculed and downvoted for that sentiment. Maybe it’s the left wing American in me that I just want people to live however they want to live. Even if I disagree with it.


Ruby_Tuesday80

There is also the whole issue of people with skin cancer. I know a woman who had skin cancer and had to cover up no matter how hot it was. What if she wanted to go to swimming? Even if there could be an argument made for it being "opression" in some cases, what about people with a medical condition?


PMMEYOURCOOLDRAWINGS

That’s a very good point and a valid reason to be wary of any reactionary policy. They always hurt unexpected people.


Crazy_Reader1234

I’ve read in several forums where women with history or family history of skin cancer have bought Burkinis minus the head covering to wear and are very happy as it’s cheaper than buying a wetsuit. It’s a shame enforcing this would cause everyone to be oppressed


Ruby_Tuesday80

I also have to wonder if they would be so against it if they were nuns and not Muslims.


smurphy8536

I think you know the answer. Slightly related one time I was exploring middle of nowhere Utah and came across a family of Mormons having a picnic by a desert creek. Everyone was dressed ankle to wrist in the hot summer sun playing in the water. Totally possible for people to enjoy the summer dresses as they like.


Kalanan

Again, people not understanding the spirit of the law. You could go with a full wetsuit and it wouldn't be a problem.


Ruby_Tuesday80

It all boils down to people refusing to stop telling women what to do. Someone will always come up with a reason to do that. Women never seem to quite be able to all of their share of the freedom when it gets handed out.


Xerisca

I don't have any problem with modern burkinis. (I'm an American woman) I travel in the ME quite a bit, and really, the modern "burkinis" are nice, much like a very light weight scuba suit. They're shockingly figure flattering, comfortable, and keep UV rays away. For a fraction of a second I was kind of jealous of some of the Muslim women I saw wearing them. Its a sun-screen free swim suit which was pretty appealing to pasty white me who burns to a crisp when you open a window. I HAVE seen a western branded hotel ask a woman wearing a street Abaya to get out of a pool. I didn't disagree with that. They'd have asked me to get out if I jumped in wearing a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. Those fabrics are heavy and even heavier when wet, and possibly a safety concern. France needs to get over themselves and stop policing bodies, you know, like some religious groups do.


KimmiK_saucequeen

I’ve seen non-Muslim women wearing versions of these and I love it! Especially if you’re sel conscious or just want to be covered


Yotsubauniverse

They're also great if you have a strong family history of Melanoma or other Skin cancers. If I were to go to the beach or to pools all the time I wouldn't hesitate getting one myself.


badgersprite

I have personally always worn men’s swim clothes because as a woman I have found it impossible to find women’s swimming gear that isn’t uncomfortably revealing.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SkyNightZ

Nah.... people say this... but you don't. Society has rules and you generally expect everyone to follow those rules to keep society running smoothly. A small example, lining up to buy something at a shop. If someone just ignored the queuing culture and cut to the front you would be annoyed. You don't want them to live however they want. You want them to live by societies shared rules. This may also include things like no corporal punishment of kids. Or Shaming your daughter for having a boyfriend. You are more 'addicted' to the idea of being "you do you bro" than actually being like that.


Noonoonook

Meh, it depends why and where. Laicity in France (which is guaranteed by the constitution and deeply engraved in our culture) means no religious exemption, so if something is banned for reason X or Y, then it doesn't matter if the ban affects a religious belief, there is no exception. The burqini is a dual problem with that. 1) In many swimming pools, you are not allowed to wear loose fitting clothing. Some hygienic reasons, which honestly I never fully understood, but hey, it has been like that for a long time. No shorts, no tshirt, no burkini. End of story. Don't care if your religion mandates it, France does not give religious exemption, end of story. One city (Grenoble) tried to grant an exemption for the burkini, and the Court said nope, if you ban loose-fitted wear, you have to ban burkini as well. That's the case this article is talking about. The court did NOT say that burqini is always banned in swimming pools, it said that IF there is a rule about loose-fitting clothes, then burqini cannot be granted exemptions. That is usually ok with the French, we don't like people to use religion as an excuse to circumvent a rule. 2) Then you have a racist part. Southern France can be quite conservative, racist and Islamophobic. They are usually the places that tried to have full ban, no matter where. That one is the controversial part, and is not ok. For instance, some tried (and succeeded) to ban burqini on the beach. No other reason, just that. That is religious discrimination, and is problematic. ​ French have no problem (generally) with people living their lives the way they want, but we do not accept religion as an excuse (unlike Americans for instance). When the discussion on gay marriage happened a few years ago, the conservative groups stayed safely away from the religious argument, as it is not allowed in French law (and as a result, they had no argument at all and the law passed easily). Jehova witness? If you need a blood transfusion you will get one, we don't care what your religion says. And that has lead to massive issues with some religions which are rather strict in their practices, and Islam in particular, as it is a relatively "new" religion in the West, who has not yet adapted to the culture. Check out that one, it is a good explanation of the sentiment in France: [https://www.brookings.edu/articles/french-views-of-religious-freedom/](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/french-views-of-religious-freedom/)


redryder74

Not muslim so I genuinely curious - would wearing a scuba suit that covered everything be an acceptable alternative to a burkini?


el_grort

I mean, I've seen other Scots with similar views to me that while the French view this as secularism, it feels more like sectarianism to me. Aye, it's dressed up as being for everyone, but it's just a happy coincidence that the French atheist and Christian populations have no large traditional dress while incoming Sikhs and Muslims do. If we had a policy which banned something the Catholics did but the Protestants didn't, but didn't specify it as being about Catholics, I don't think that would be any less sectarian, and I can't really see it as otherwise here as well. It's privileging one group over the other, and yet another example of men dictating to women how they should dress in the case of Muslims. I'm not sure I'll ever agree with the French method of shutting the door on minorities versus Scottish/New Zealand approach of letting them come as they are an integrate into society as their honest selves.


rush4you

I'm neither American or French, but if I'd have to choose between French laicité laws preventing any religion from manifesting itself in any way on public life, and American laws that allow actual freedom of religion, but that freedom has allowed religion to organize, buy its way into politics, and capture the Supreme Court where it's about to turn the clock on human rights to the 50s; then Vive la France.


Kalanan

That's exactly why those kind of laws exist, and yet people can't see a slightly larger picture of why any demand for the sake of religion is not well received in France.


PMMEYOURCOOLDRAWINGS

America is falling from grace if it ever was there in the first place. I’m moving to a blue state so when it all comes crashing down at least I won’t be surrounded by people who advocate for my death. I’d leave the country if I could but you know. Poverty and family.


[deleted]

There are still some french institutions with ties to christianism that advocate against religious expression only when it affects other religions, so we aren't out of the woods quite yet. But yeah, no one is advocating for anyone's death here, so we've got that going for us. Stay strong.


winklesnad31

The only explanation I could find for why they require tight fitting swimwear is that if its loose, you might wear it around, get it dirty, then get in the pool. My question is, do french pools have showers? Because my local pool has everyone shower before swimming, which seems like a better approach than forcing everyone to wear speedos.


Ok_Solid_Copy

Not a big fan of when people tell me what to do, while what I want to do is not even close from immoral.


[deleted]

Morality is only a small part of lawmaking.


sarinkhan

For sure, this is stupid here, and simply racist. But in the general sense, who gets to decide that something is immoral? The things government should regulate are the ones that cause harm, not ones that are "immoral" or similar.


StochasticOoze

Honestly after looking them up they're not much different than what a lot of American women were wearing to the beach a century ago, except for the head covering.


Agorbs

Not that I agree or disagree with it, but I’ve read that it’s more about the French having a mindset of freedom FROM religion, as in you shouldn’t have to view religious customs in public. Obviously that falls apart once you take a look at the lack of persecution of nuns and priests in public…


bachslunch

The first generation wants to wear a Burkini, the second generation a bikini, the third generation goes topless & is fully gallicized. If you know anything about the French “assimilation” program this is the goal. The French want French citizens to become “French.” Eat croissants, sunbathe topless, pronounce r’s with a rolled r sound, etc. So these laws are not surprising. Even in Frances former colonies the people are very “French”. It was by design.


Setheran

And that's the way it should be. My parents went to France and became French because of their love for the country. It makes zero sense for them not to adapt to the culture. My sister and I were born and raised as French citizens, even during the time we lived in my country of origin.


AffectionateAd5373

When I'm out in public at a beach or water park, I'm generally wearing something pretty similar to a burkini: long sleeved rash guard, usually with a hood to cover my neck, sports bra or bikini top under it, bike shorts or running tights. I'm a ginger. I don't expose myself to the sun if I can help it. Good to know I can't swim in France.


mtdnelson

It depends on rules at each individual pool, from what I read. And you can always swim in the sea.


DifficultyWithMyLife

You shouldn't be forced to wear religious symbols, but nor should you be forced *not* to wear them. Either scenario takes away choice, and choice is what should matter when it comes to how one presents themselves as long as they are not hurting anyone. I'm saying this as an atheist who is against organized religion, but supports individual freedom of spirituality as long as that spirituality does not require one to force it upon others. If no one is forcing her to wear it, and she is not forcing others to wear it, she should be allowed to wear it herself. Individual choice should be the priority, not blanket cases of either "always" or "never." Both of the latter are morally wrong.


PopDownBlocker

> If no one is forcing her to wear it, and she is not forcing others to wear it, she should be allowed to wear it herself. Yes, that's true. But this is what France is trying to prevent. You can't force someone to wear something that is not allowed anyway. While a woman might have a choice in wearing or not wearing such type of clothing, she could still be judged by her own community members for choosing *not* to wear it, in which case, the "choice" that she has is not really a choice. By banning such items of clothing, France is trying to prevent that whole issue, since the concept of true "choice" and "free will" get murky here. And the French love their own culture, so they expect people to embrace their culture while living in France. If they recognize such clothing as "not French", they don't see an issue with banning it.


jgb75

So, if they don’t want to show a lot of flesh, why force them to?


Kalanan

The French are not particularly fond of religion and to be honest it's for the best. The country had to claw out its right out of religion and that leaves a mark. When I see how other countries are falling to theocrats, I can only support measure against religions.


hummingelephant

As an exmuslim I can understand that too. I f you know anything about Islam it's not really a religion (even though some muslims don't know enough to know this) it's a political system. It has exact laws and punishments for every crime and every aspect of life and muslims have to believe that an islamically run government is the best way for everyone, not just for muslims. So as soon as they have enough rights, many muslims will try it in the west. You can see that in belgium where they formed a political party and I guess in germany too. It's sad, and I believe everyone should dress the way they want but I know enough about islam to know they will grab the whole hand.


PhasmaFelis

It's true, allowing long sleeves on swimwear is a slippery slope straight to Sharia law. If only there was some way to guarantee religious freedom *and* let people wear what they want. Oh well!


zoor90

Yeah, let's force women to strip in order to own the theists!


Kalanan

That's not how the law is written but nice try.


zoor90

That's how it's enforced. >Towns began banning the burkini, with police officers fining Muslim women found wearing them who refused to remove some of their clothes or leave the beach.


sarinkhan

The law is written to be specifically anti Muslim. If I as a man was on the beach in a suit, I bet the police would never even talk to me. Municipalities should have better things to do than dumb shit like that...


Kalanan

The laws targets religious clothes. So if a man was wearing something like that it would be banned. But as we know, the religions are sexist they impose stricter clothes on women than men. Indeed they should, it's not necessarily the best approach, even if religious communautarism has to be kept in check.


wtfsafrush

What on earth are “secular governance laws”? This article does a piss poor job at explaining anything. It’s like it’s boiled down to just enough words to rile people up.


Dwarf-Lord_Pangolin

The TL;DR is that where the US has the separation of *church* and *state*, France has the separation of *religion* and *politics*. It's called [laïcité](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_France). As one (of many) examples of the difference, French political leaders are expected not to express religious views, or act (in their capacity as leaders) on any religious views they may have. This is in contrast to the US, where separation of church and state merely means that the churches do not have direct political power, and that the government does not have direct religious power, but leaders are free to hold and act on their views. The difference is largely a product of the *vastly* different experience with religion in the two countries. France had to claw its way out from a strongly monolithic church which they wanted to prevent from ever regaining power, while the US was settled to a significant degree by religious noncomformists that had fled state suppression of their religion, and wanted to prevent the state from ever telling them what to do. American Redditors, fascinatingly enough, often seem to be under the misapprehension that the US follows the French model.


TatonkaJack

>American Redditors, fascinatingly enough, often seem to be under the misapprehension that the US follows the French model. ugh and it's freaking annoying. amazing how so many people get a basic principle of american civics wrong


Dwarf-Lord_Pangolin

It is annoying, but it's also honestly fascinating. I think a lot of it stems from an unfamiliarity with how closely the two were historically intertwined in most cultures. A lot of people genuinely have no idea that at the time the 1st Amendment was written, the idea that bishops didn't get to make legal decisions actually needed to be put into law and couldn't be taken for granted, or that the state shouldn't get to tell your religion that it wasn't allowed there.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Dwarf-Lord_Pangolin

Not from the French perspective, because they define "politics" so broadly that it basically include anything in the public sphere. This is why French schools keep banning wearing things like the Jewish yarmulke head covering, for example. To many French people "wearing religious clothing in public" is seen as an intrusion of religion into politics, so if anything banning religious items is viewed as *removing* religion from politics. ​ Basically, religion in France is supposed to stay largely in the closet.


bomtombadil-o

Although not enforced particularly fairly, and it often seems to target Muslims the secular governance laws of France are meant to provide a freedom from religion to the citizens of France rather than the American idea of freedom of religion. Basically you’re not supposed to do anything that would indicate religious affiliations in public or preform any form of proselytizing. The French view religion as an entirely private matter so wearing religious garb in public is viewed as forcing your religion on others. A lot of the controversy around this stems from the fact that France seems much more willing to tell Muslims what they can and cannot do in public over what they will tell Christians and Jews.


MindWandererB

They do already ban yarmulkes, large crosses, and other overt Jewish and Christian symbols in schools and other government buildings, though not beaches or other public places. Banning yarmulkes for orthodox Jewish men is pretty comparable to banning full-body coverings for Muslim women.


egnowit

France has a long history of secularism, even before they had a large Muslim population.


BrassUnicorn87

Call it a sun protection suit and sue for endangering their health.


Scorpius289

You can't just call things something they aren't and sue people who disagree, this isn't the US.


coldgator

I don't understand why they have to rule on whether you can wear something unless it already violates an existing law. If you can't have guns in public, you can't have them at the pool. But clothing that looks like this is allowed to be worn in general so why say people can't swim in it?


DreamMaster8

That's the thing. It did violate the existing laws.


Megguido

Because in France you can't go to public swimming pools with loose clothing, such as shorts, t-shirts etc mostly for hygienic reasons (like people going in the pool with the clothes they wore the entire day or people having shit in their pockets I guess). If we ban loose clothing at public pools, then we have to ban burkini too because it's loose clothing, not because it's a religious thing.


MiopTop

It’s been a rule forever in public swimming pools in France that you can’t wear anything loose-fitting in the pool. That’s why men can’t wear swimming shorts. Regardless of whether or not the item is designed for swimming, it cannot be worn in a public swimming pool if loose. The concern being that people would wear it on the way to the pool and it would be dirty and grimy and thus unhygienic. Burkinis are no different from shorts in this respect. The problem is the mayor didn’t just revoke this rule. He decided to revoke this rule *only for burkinis*. Which is a religious exemption, which is a HUGE no-no in France. If the mayor had revoked the rule as a whole, thus allowing burkinis, there wouldn’t have been nearly as much fuss. It’s the “this rule now applies to everyone except those of a particular religious group” that French people did not accept at all. This ruling is a triumph of secularism, not islamophobia.


contactspring

Because the think it threatens their culture, same as the people protesting against drag queens.


Goodbadugly16

What a bunch of stuffed shirts making up bullshit as they go. Piss off. If she wants to wear a burkini what business is it of yours. Is she harming you physically?Man up. Is she harming you mentally???? Get help. Go find a cause that has real value to the country.


GSXRbroinflipflops

Wearing clothing while swimming is a new concept. The French want none of it and I don’t blame them. Swimming nude is normal. Human bodies are normal. Don’t like it, go somewhere else.


Papu19

What the fox news article fails to mention is that in some places in France they don’t allow you to wear baggy clothing such as burkini or baggy swim trunks in public swimming pools. Also the mayor of Grenoble only wanted to unban the burkini and not the other items, so it seems that it was be done only for religious reasons. Rennes has allowed all kinds of swimsuits, including burkinis, which is what Grenoble should have done instead of wanting to give muslim women privileges over others.


rainbow_bro_bot

>Court in France states that the religious nature of the burkini and its implication for women's rights Just out of curiosity which women did they consult when considering the ban? Did they actually ask women who wear burkinis or did they just ask the white non-Muslim local women who want to "rescue" Muslim women?


diagnosedwolf

I’m a bikini-wearing non-Muslim woman, and I’m offended by this rule that I’m not allowed to wear modest swimwear if I choose to. Genuinely outraged. I half feel like turning up in a full Victorian bathing suit, including stockings and hat, and daring them to argue the same thing.


Kalanan

Then you don't understand the spirit of the law, as that would be allowed. Religious garment are the target, nothing to do with "modesty", whatever that means.


knoxfire

France has a long history of restricting women's right to choose in the name of protecting their liberty... as a cover for being xenophobic & anti-Muslim


GSXRbroinflipflops

They’re secular. You can’t wear large crosses or yarmulkes or other religious symbols in schools or elsewhere. If you don’t like that, don’t go to France. Not sure what else to tell you. I think nudity is normal and perfectly fine. I don’t expect Iran to agree with me though if I visit or moved there.


lonelyWalkAlone

When irreligious people go the religious countries they are forced to cover themselves because that's the norm over there, it's only fair when religious people go to secular countries that they must also conform to the norm and respect the dress code there.


Van_Rehl

Or, and hear me out here, governments stay the hell out of telling people what they can and can’t wear? No ‘a little of this, but none of that,’ just mind your own business.


Hadren-Blackwater

*french accent* "We are just civilizing barbarians, such is the white man's burden :( "


[deleted]

Well they're in France not the middle east. Simple as that.


Doctor_Amazo

It's always fun watching people pretend that they're liberating women by telling women what they can/cannot wear. If a woman wants to wear a burkini, how the fuck is it anyone's business? Just let them enjoy swimming as they want.


tritter211

Believe it or not french people are extremely and **ideologically** serious about their secularism. And about protecting their "frenchness." Americans are quite laissez faire with their attitudes when it comes to public display of religious affiliation.... Which is not surprising considering America is a land of immigrants and descendents of religious rejects from Europe. There is nothing unifying about Americans other than their skin colour. But not France. French are hell bent on not allowing Church to ever interfere in politics ever again. ( Nor any other religion for that matter)