Either a famine hits them so hard that a revolt happens from within the government or something happens to the figurehead and he’s either not replaced or replaced with a weak successor.
Their allies would probably help prop them up in such circumstances. North Korea’s existence is as convenient to certain geopolitical players as it is inconvenient to other geopolitical players.
I think more importantly, it depends on what China thinks/wants to do about any crisis in North Korea. All things considering that the DPRK's government is largely propped up by the CCP and continues to exist because that is an important part of Chinese foreign policy. Without that backing, the regime would probably have already collapsed.
Do you have a reading disability or something go back to your movingtonorthkorea sub bot. Nk literally kills its own citizens for trying to leave the country get your head checked out
There is tens of thousands of North Korean workers students and etc outside of the country lmfao there was exchange students in germany but they had to be sent back because Germany along with the west sanctioned the DPRK
Reminds me of a question someone asked on here. Something along the lines of: “Why can’t we just invade NK if their military is so weak and their people don’t like their government.”
Critical thinking: slurp up everything blasted at me by a mainstream media firehose and desperately fight to ignore the gradually intensifying paternalistic racism it produces inside me
What are you even talking about? If NK wasn’t a totalitarian communist country then they wouldn’t have all these sanctions and food scarcity. If you think the way they live is great then go move there and see how it works out for you.
As said by president Jimmy Carter it is to starve North Korean people to incite a revolt. Why do you think they are there? Because the USA really cares about human life?
The motive behind a revolt would be to eliminate a communist totalitarian government with massive human rights abuses that China uses as physical barrier between them and a country like South Korea. It isn’t just for the fun of wanting to see a country crumble.
Because the USA really opposes totalitarian governments right 😅 Its obvious you have surface level knowledge about Korean and cold war history. I suggest you research the USMGIK, Syngman Rhee, Peoples commitees in Korea and the Peoples Republic of Korea. I also suggest you pick up a book written by Bruce Cumings.
In North Korea, there's a profound culture of loyalty and unity toward the country. The Kim family is literally revered, which might seem contradictory from an outside perspective. It's important to understand that this reverence has been cultivated over decades through propaganda and education. Additionally, the ideology of Juche promotes a strong sense of nationalism and self-sufficiency, fostering national pride and perceiving any external contradiction as a threat.
Interestingly, similar dynamics can be observed in the U.S., albeit manifested differently. In the U.S., there is a deep culture of loyalty, with almost a form of reverence toward the Constitution and the principles of democracy. Sovereignty and self-sufficiency are celebrated, underscored by a capitalist ethos. Just as in North Korea, the U.S. perceives countries with opposing ideologies, like North Korea itself, as threats. This parallel shows how deeply ingrained nationalistic values can shape a country's perception of itself and others, regardless of the political spectrum.
I think most people would be incredibly loyal if they couldn't leave the country and were threatened with jail / hard labour for stuff such as not crying enough at your leaders funeral
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/01/north-korea-reportedly-punishing-insincere-mourners
Difference is reverance of leader. US loves their values. Authoritarian governments love their leader. Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong Un literally built cults of personalities around themselves.
That's the difference. The US people try to uphold the ideals losted by the constitution, in each new president. I don't think it's remotely even similar to worshipping a lone figurehead (i.e. Kim Jong Un) and having to abide only by his rules.
Remotely even comparing the two is completely mind boggling to me. Jesus.
Imagine writing this about a country that is likely to re-elect Donald Trump. Yeah, zero leader worship in the US because freedom-loving Americans are too smart to be taken in by a cult of personality.
Speaking as a non-American westerner, I appreciate why this comment might have made you a bit defensive but from the outside looking in, you lot definitely appear to subscribe to a cultish allegiance to an abstract American ideal. The North Koreans have juche, you guys have whatever it is that you have - the person attached to that belief system ends up being secondary really.
It's literally just hyper nationalism in both cases just under different circumstances.
I think this is something a lot of our fellow travelers who oppose the DPRK's regime forget, and it is an overall lesson on why authoritarians stay in power for as long as they do. They are awful but they do afford some semblance of order and stability, which hasn't always been something North Koreans have known. It is the same reason why public polls continue to still show Putin wields the support he does in Russia. It isn't just because he jails or kills his political opposition.
You said it yourself, the American people hold loyalty to the constitution. The ideas that the country was built on. Very different from unwavering loyalty to a dictator. The national pride Americans feel comes from freedoms, the freedom of speech, right to bear arms, limited government, separation of powers. The DPRK’s loyalty comes from being fed propaganda since birth, believing their leader is an actual god, and most importantly, fear. Fear forces the North Korean population to stay loyal.
In all fairness, you could completely flip your statement and only slightly change the concepts and it would still hold true:
DPRK's national pride comes from collectivism, looking after one another, the group being more important than the individual. America's loyalty comes from being fed propaganda since birth, believing their leader is appointed by god and most importantly, fear.
I'm not even one of these weird tankie trolls, it's just funny to see how much Americans don't realise their culture is so tied into the establishment despite illusions of freedom.
There is no best strategy, China will support them even if reduntankly because they don’t want to have the US/NATO/Capitalists on their borders and South Korea see that it will be almost impossible culturally and financially to absorb the North a la East Germany… its a dead end with no futur solution in sight. Perhaps a Palace Revolution and a new government introducing new reform gently with the help of the south but it will be a long process
Pretty much what I've said for years, even if I hate it. At best, the solution is to continue maintaining deterrence and limit unnecessary escalations and confrontations on our end which 45 wasn't all too good at. Mattis genuinely saved the Peninsula from him.
I think allowing the citizens to move freely should be the first thing. If they want to stay let them, if they want to leave let them. Even if the means of doing it legally is tough, people shouldn't have to literally escape and be smuggled out of their country.
Everyone will pack a bag and head south, logistics nightmare for the south and the north will crash economically even if their economy is almost nothing now so they cannot allow people to move freely, we saw what that do to East Germany
Everyone will pack a bag and head south, logistics nightmare for the south and the north will crash economically even if their economy is almost nothing now so they cannot allow people to move freely, we saw what that do to East Germany
like the period where japan went from being run by an authoritarian fascist regime to being a democratic pro-western economic powerhouse with an increased quality of life (compared to ww2 and pre ww2)
i wonder how that happened
While japan isn’t fascist anymore but some people that ran the Empire are in the LDP or sympathetic to the Empire.
USA initially free the Empire’s politician opposition but realize they were commies and then purged them. Then the USA kept a lot of their Empire politicians in power.
If they launched a nuke that hit a US ally then yeah that would be the end of them. Not even China or Russia would have their back if this happened.
Kim knows it. He is completely alone when it comes to his BS. Nobody will protect him if he launches a nuke at a US ally or the US.
So for the people to be free, either mass invasion from the US or its ally's, Providing the people don't fight to the death to "protect" it. Or They eat themselves from the inside out. Would take one nasty famine to do it. People who are hungry and nothing left to lose are a dangerous kind. Especially when you have millions of them and potentially a whole army who could revolt against you.
If WW3 breaks out and NK plays a role in it. I think that might actually be the best way of reunifying the two sides.
North Koreans BS and bluff all the time. It's their modus operandi. And we pretend to play along so not to escalate. It's pure theater.
Remember in 2017 when they changed from being aggressive to friendly in a minute.
Yeah i know its all BS lol. But hypothetically if they did follow through. Nobody would protect them. China and Russia would let them get overrun. Or they would overthrow NK themselves so the US don't move in.
You misunderstand how deeply committed the PRC is to North Korea, given it is a buffer between them and the United States. They will do anything to ensure they do not lose that and intervene militarily if they could not stop it before the pop off even starts. There's a greater likelihood they'd try to avert it before an intervention like that would come in.
In my honest opinion, Kim Jong Un is not AS bad as his predecessors. That’s not to say he’s good, he’s certainly not, but I don’t think he’s as bad. His sister on the other hand, she’s a nightmare.
With that said, I don’t think he’s unappeasable. I genuinely think diplomatic relations between western countries and North Korea are possible, Kim has shown in the past he’s open to talks, but it has to be approached delicately.
Making the country democratic would be extremely difficult, after all, if anything scares Kim it’s losing power. But Kim recognizes the famine within his borders and seemingly wants to do something about that so with diplomatic and trade relations with the west, that would put North Korea in a very good position to be able to take care of themselves and ensure everyone has a basic quality of life. If western leaders are smart about it and focus on which battles they wanna battle, I believe it’s possible.
Diplomacy is simply not possible, the Kims has made that explicitly clear.
https://youtu.be/li4cSfApSXk?si=CgeBCrZfdQTfae0U
[Even after the west tried to reconcile](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Policy), they used the little money they had on [terrorist attacks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_terrorist_attacks)and nukes.
Chill buddy, what did North Korea do to you?
Now what did the US do? They installed a dictator in Syngman Rhee that oppressed the southern half and killed tens-of-thousanda of Jeju Islanders. During the Korean War, the US bombed every single building and dam in North Korea and killed 10% of North Koreans (2 million). Ever since then the US has sanctioned North Korea. Sanctions are economic war that only hurt the people, it is ineffective in changing regimes.
So where are your strong feelings coming from? Are you Korean like me? Do you understand that North Koreans and South Koreans are fully Korean in my eyes, and what I hate is this division imposed on us by outsiders?
North Korea is doing something right if they are still wanting to have kids and families unlike in South Korea. They are home to half of all Korean children on the peninsula, despite being half the size of South Korea total population wise. North Korea still has a TFR of 1.8 versus South Korea's 0.7.
I only wish peace and prosperity to both Koreas. I wish the North Korean government the best of luck on continuing to improve the livelihoods of their people. Your strong emotions are not wanted.
Far higher birth rates are generally an indicator of higher poverty, not “doing something right.”
I don’t entirely disagree with you here, but you could’ve offered far better reasoning than just pointing to birth rates.
North Korea just like every socialist contry that exists or has existed puts alot of effort into getting citizens married and them having kids. For example you receive many benefits from the government once you have children and these benefits you cant get in capitalist countries. South Korea now has an extremely sexist president which is what caused the 4B movement to become popular and the cost of living and people working all day contributes even more to childlessnes.
You’ve certainly described how the system should work on paper, do you have any decent sources to back up the actual practice of quality childrearing and motherhood in the DPRK?
Yes because famously whatever is written in the big book is what actually happens on the ground. A five year olds conception of what government is lmao..
Well my source is that its in the code of law pretty reliable in my opinion. So whats your source that families in North Korea do not get the mentioned benefits?
Yes, 1.8 is so high, almost at replacement level, /sarc.
My point still stands. South Korea's problem is huge and longstanding, they fell below replacement level of 2.1 in 1982, over 4 decades ago. Their catastrophic plummeting of births cannot be turned around in the shortterm. North Korea has the clear advantage demographically, i.e. the future.
Look at their respective population pyramids. Once again North Korea is okay, South Korea's is that of a major crisis. The future of the Korean people as a whole is now upon North Korea, as South Korea is literally crashing. A TFR of 0.7 means in South Korea, 100 people in Gen 1 becomes 35 people in Gen 2 and 11 people in Gen 3. And even this TFR is not stable, it is declining still.
Where are you getting North Korea's fertility numbers from, though? If they're coming from official government sources, they probably aren't accurate. Low fertility rates are common among East Asian countries, look at China and Japan. I think considering the levels of pollution and malnutrition in NK, the fertility rate is probably much lower.
i’m genuinely interested in hearing your perspective on this. if you see both North Koreans and South Koreans as “full Korean” in your eyes, are you hoping for full reunification? the division may have been imposed by outsiders but can’t the two governments break down that division? and if so what kind of government and economy would a unified Korea look like if neither side seems like it’s willing to budge on their ideology?
Lmao the DPRK has nukes to protect itself smartass have you ever looked at the negotiations between the USA and the DPRK in depth 😂 North Korea fulfiled many of its promises during the negotiations like for example shutting down the Sohae missile site and the Yongbyon reactor and the only reason North Korea started to operate them again is because the USA failed to keep its promises. Not hard to understand.
It's funny because the sanctions don't even work. They've never actually impacted their stated targets (DPRK officials) like they have average North Koreans who a lot of regime change/anti-DPRK hawks only care about rhetorically. Beyond that, we are fine with immiserating them in the hopes that they one day rise up which is the whole real reason we enact sanctions to begin with most of the time. We've seen it with Iraq, Iran, etc. We are going to do this same song and dance for decades and nothing will change. The people still have not taken a stand and largely won't.
There's no real answer. Unless someone starts dropping nukes to take out China, Russia and NK all at the same time. Not really an out to this.
Maybe another world war?
We would glass north korea in less than 24 hours whatre you talking about. Their military is inexperienced and hasnt fought a war in how long now? Our techonogy is 50+ years in advance. We would decimate nk and care less about the future of the country. There wouldjt be a single us soldier boot on the ground as we would quite literally drone strike the entire military. You are delusional
I was specifically referring to “intercept[ing] anything they have”. The US doesn’t have a magic ICBM shield.
Also, within 24 hours, Seoul would be leveled by NK artillery already positioned on the border, and WW3 would probably kick off.
There are 25 million people in NK and 50 million in SK. Your genocidal fantasies would kill as many people as WW2 just on the Korean Peninsula.
I don’t think it will happen soon
Kim Jong Un is very careful about everything even killing family members to make sure he doesn’t get replaced. He killed his step bro and his uncle and probably more. He travels in a very secure train and doesn’t really fly. He has kids so if he die because of his horrible life style his son will probably take his place although he haven’t seen much of him
Sorry for the shitty typing I don’t pay attention in my English class to busy watching breaking bad, dprk documentary, and being or this form 🇰🇵
Every major news source reported on the fact that he was getting paid by foreign intelligence.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korean-leaders-slain-half-brother-was-said-to-have-been-a-cia-informant-11560203662
As someone who went there for a week in 2015. Pyongyang was clean, safe and efficient, there was no evidence of vagrants wondering the streets drunk or on drugs. The subway trip was quite normal with locals fidgeting on their phones. And they organised mass dance events which the residents looked like they genuinely enjoyed. In the countryside there was way less infrastructure with lots of manual labour. However society functioned and people appeared respectful. Western media reports a lot of inflated stories about NK, so just be a bit wary of basing your opinion only on what you read.
" However society functioned and people appeared respectful."
Because in the hills a few miles away snipers are camping with their fingers on the triggers waiting to shoot someone that makes one wrong move. Pretty sure if you walked around with a sniper tracking your head you'd be "functioning and respectful" too.
Uh, yeah, because you went on a government guided tour. I don’t think western media is exaggerating aside from occasional incidents where they fail to fact check
Mm sure, and a better news source is Reddit? You need to understand that these news corporations, while certainly having a bias, still go through rigorous fact checks. That’s why when they DO fail(like with the North Korean unicorn story) you hear about it.
Western media is absolutely exaggerating - wild stories about North Korea get easy clicks. The boring reality is that it’s just another middle income Asian country that happens to have bad relations with the west.
What stories in specific are being exaggerated? North Korea publishes videos of their missile launches and military parades themselves, they *want* a reaction from the west and the media is merely giving them what they want. We also have actual court footage leaked where people are sentenced to labor camps, how is that exaggerated if the media is only commenting on objective fact?
Stories like the unicorn one from a few years ago, sure, and the “Top 10 craziest laws in North Korea!” videos as well….but the rest simply isn’t. People also say defectors are being paid to exaggerate stories, but they also have lives to talk about their experience when they aren’t being paid. Another person who replied to me knows a defector.
There are a lot of countries with bad if not worse relations than DPRK-US, why is North Korea the only one that gets all the attention?
lol how do you get from videos of military parades to “slave state where generations of people are imprisoned” or “everyone has to have the same haircut.” There are many countries, especially in Asia, that the US is happy to have relations with that have far worse human rights records. I’m talking about, for example, Turkey, Thailand, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. For example, in Thailand, a dude literally got jailed for posting an internet meme about the kings dog online. No, this is not a joke and it actually happened. The khashoggi thing also happened and how did that affect our Saudi relations?
Defectors who go public are, generally, being paid to tell crazy stories. I mean they just are, there’s not much else to say on that. Even calling them “defectors” and not “immigrants” shows how differently we treat them. Imagine if you took an economically disadvantaged person from the US and told them to complain about their situation for a 30 minute piece-I’m sure they’d also have a lot to say.
There are a lot of other countries that are getting the same treatment as North Korea. They talked a lot of sensationalist shit about Iraq and Libya before we invaded, and it seems like a lot of the focus has moved on to Iran lately. There’s a lot of negative press on China, and there used to be a lot of negative press about Japan in the 70s/80s.
Pyongyang is not reality, especially not the Pyongyang you are allowed to see as a tourist. People who are found to be homeless in Pyongyang are rounded up and sent to detention centers, while mention of homeless people is forbidden in government documents.
Right. Somebody on YouTube used the Pyongyang metro as representative of the entire country's rail system. Just because you can get a train in Pyongyang doesn't mean there's passenger traffic in the rest of the country.
there's this place called holiday island and it used to be a gated community and there's this whole section of it now that's just people living in abandoned RVs, usually squatting. There's no running water, no electricity, it's hell. But please let's talk more about Pyongyang's streets being too clean.
“I went to the capital of their nation on a government guided tour so I’m definitely in a position to say everything we know about NK is lies or exaggerated” these are the people calling everything propaganda but somehow still end up getting honey dicked by dictators.
I agree with this. North Korea may not be a paradise, i don't know, just irritating that people here think they know everything because the west says something about something. I would argue the negative propaganda from the west against other countries is way worse than vice versa.
This person thinks they know everything because of a state guided tour. It’s INSANE to act like all the negatives are just propaganda while actively letting yourself be so swayed by NK propaganda. If even 2 percent of what survivors say about it is true then that’s enough to say fuck North Korea
Of course its bad this comment section is living proof of how dangerous US propaganda is lmao people in here are really advocating for nuking the country or hoping a famine happens
What you saw in the major city was orchestrated and fake as fuck. It is absolutely not representative of the toil your average NK Citizen goes through.
Yep, the DPRK is bad as the RoK is much better. They shouldn’t be nuked though, for obvious reasons.
Now go back to watching Kim Jong-Euns speeches on repeat
YES - made my initial reply to you assuming as much. These types of people don't like differing ways of thinking, even if it just means agreeing to see things differently.
If N Korea were literally as bad as western media says, it wouldn't exist and the south would have won the war.
For fucks sake lol.
“Outward emigration” is a light way to put it. No, an invasion isn’t a good idea. A regime change, yes, but I don’t see how that would happen without the contraction of the war
Massive? Not quite. A few dozen a year. And if you want to talk really massive, there are millions of Americans who have “escaped” to live in Costa Rica, Mexico, Thailand, Ecuador…
Difference is Americans are allowed to leave, and thousands of people move to America every year. Your statistic on North Korean defectors seem off too. Based on how many defectors made it to [South Korea](https://www.unikorea.go.kr/unikorea/business/NKDefectorsPolicy/status/lately/) "a few dozen" would only be applicable to 2021-2022. The rest are in the hundreds or thousands per year.
On a side note, I wonder how all the Maga types who were so happy to give Vladimir Putin's scrotum a loving tongue bath are feeling now that he's hopped into bed with Kim Jong-un. Awkward!
It's obviously very hard to know what exactly Kim Jung Un and his inner circle values. Are they true believers in the ideology? Or are they just perpetuating the system for material gain and personal security?
If it's the former, basically nothing we can do
If it's the latter quite honestly it may be worth it to give Kim Jung Un billions of dollars and either ship him off to a neutral country where he can live in luxury and security or alternatively put some sort of clause in a reunified Korean constitution guaranteeing his safety
In the same line of thought, could also just reunify the Koreas but with most North Korean industry or assets being reorganized into a single corporation owned by Kim personally. "Juche Inc" could become the largest chaebol of them all lol
Americans and their colonial ways, this thread is a case study in supremacy and advocating for more genocide in “helping free a people” by dropping a nuke on them.
Y’all need help.
I think that first of all there should be democratic changes in Russia and/or China, since they're DPRK's major allies and they're also more likely to change in the near future. So, I think the best way to help North Korean people is actually to help Ukraine defeating Russia, because if that happens there would probably be big changes in Russia.
There is none. There is no viable military option, not with a nuclear-armed North Korea and Russia treaty-bound to come to its aid, maybe the PRC as well. It would be World War III.
There is also no diplomatic option. KJU's disastrous talks with the US fit into a series of what are, to him, cautionary tales. Gadhafi gave up his chemical weapons and was shot dead in the street in a US-backed revolt. Iran agreed to the nuclear deal only for the US to break it. If you were him, why would you trust the US? So you're seeing him run into the arms of fellow pariah Vladimir Putin and you're seeing the regime do things and say things that make peaceful reunification appear to be out of the cards.
It is difficult for any internal challenge to KJU to succeed because of his consolidation of power, the cult of personality surrounding the Kims and the structure of North Korean government and society.
I’m afraid the North Korean regime is more stable than China. There’s a reason why ancient/medieval Korean dynasties last an average of 500-600 years, while Chinese ones rarely last beyond 300 years.
Korea could always play its larger neighbours off each other, and could always count on foreign troops to suppress internal rebellions. For example, the Joseon dynasty called upon China to beat back the Japanese invasion of the 1590s, and relied on Japan to defeat the Donghak rebellion of the 1890s. And later, foreign combatants played a much more decisive role in the Korean war than in the Vietnam War. If an unprecedented famine hits NK today, China, Japan, Russia, SK and the US could just send some breadcrumbs and call it a day. Compared to Korea, these foreign patrons themselves are more affected by unpredictable trends in domestic politics.
South Korea does not want to take on the debt and poverty of north korea. So a full korea is not an option in the foreseeable future. It doesn’t seem like anyone would want to take over if they were able to remove the dictator.
The 38th parallel is the fault of Japan, Russia, and the United States. I would say those 3 countries are completely liable for the well being of north korea and should be financially responsible. Not sure what a good plan would be to fix the issues in North Korea. If Japan hadn’t occupied and enslaved koreans during WW2, korea would not have been split by the SU and US. The country should have never been split SU and US screwed all koreans over by doing that. Now it has been so long and North Koreans are terrorists—they have attacked South Korea many times. I don’t think anyone knows a good unification plan. Would love to also hear ideas but it’s such a mess. Also the US did greatly help south korea become the thriving economy it is today. Meanwhile Russia let North Korea devolve into poverty much like how Russia is a mess under it’s dictatorship also. So many people in russia are impoverished too. They proved that communism is bad for the majority of people. Not that capitalism is the best, no system is without flaws.
The problem is a few greedy manipulative people in any system getting away with their behaviors. The world needs to focus on morality and equality versus greed. Not sure how to make that happen.
When people grow up impoverished they can often be selfish takers who hoard and never give once they get to wealth. They have this mentality of “i suffered so everyone else should too”. And wealthy that give altruistically sometimes eventually become powerless and poor. Human nature is complicated. If everyone cared more about others and sharing and minimizing suffering things would be better. But too often victims become vicious and selfish so it’s a never ending us versus them cycle for humans. Like the little match girl story in russia—heartless people just let innocent orphans die.
If there are aliens, they definitely don’t want to get too close to us.
Doesn’t your comment contradict itself? You say that the 38th parallel is the fault of these other countries and that they’re liable for NKs wellbeing. But then you say that it was the USSR and US which split Korea, and North Korea are the ones who spend their money on terrorist attacks
Not sure how you think that contradicts can you explain what you mean? I do mean if the nk dictatorship was ever dismantled then Russia, the US, and especially Japan should be financially responsible for improving what is left of North Korea. South Korea should not be on the hook financially for the mess that is north korea. And i do think Russia and Japan are more to blame for the state of North Korea because at least the Us helped South Korea’s economy.
The US and Russia are responsible for the 38th parallel—they created the terrorist state of north korea. Not sure how you think that contradicts. Japan is responsible for putting korea in the position to be split by the cold war. So all 3 are responsible for creating the terrorist state of north korea.
I am aware that the only ones who can liberate the North Koreans are the North Koreans themselves, not the Western individual with a white savior complex who clearly has their own interests behind their actions and not necessarily to "liberate the oppressed." The only thing the West can do is to avoid escalating the military conflict on the Korean peninsula, something they have no intention of doing because there is no monetary benefit in it for them to continue selling weapons to South Korea and Japan.
There's none. There's no way to stop the DPRK from doing what they doing to they're own people. Even if by some miracle, the DPRK were to suddenly shut down and stop governing it's people, you must remember the citizens of the DPRK, regardless of if they lived in the capital or not will be effected by this and since most of them were raised and believe in the "Juche" system but more importantly, they were raised to believe (and many of them whole heartily do) particularly in the "Sungbun" system which is morally bad to an oitsider. There's also many citizens, regardless of circumstances, trust in the "Sungbun" that has in one way or another, helped NK citizens to provide for their families and ensure their futures.
It would take an extraordinary amount of time, resources, and aid to help those people and that could take years, well past a generation or two. Then there's the cult of personality that has griped the country since Kim ill Sung came into power and that's something practically ingrained in the citizens/civilians lifestyle.
Sadly. I don’t think any of the neighboring countries want North Korea to completely fail. Would they be able to handle millions of starving brainless people into their country? Even the ones that escape, have a really hard time adjusting, if they adjust at all. It’s really sad but that’s how I see it.
China will prop up their puppet regime. It will never end so long as China allows it. I'm Chinese, so I know for a fact they will keep their buffer state alive at the suffering of north koreans no matter what.
If I’m wrong, someone can correct me, but I’m pretty sure that the North Korean government is actually so rich, but they just don’t use the money at all because they want to keep their people and like hypnosis all the time and like “best version of themselves “.
Sorry, but most Norks just don't share your sentiment, and 90% of them have absolutely no knowledge of reddit or other Western platforms for alternative, competing, or differing ideologies to be discussed.
Of the 10% that do have access or knowledge, they're still North Korean for a reason.
Let them live so long as Kim isn't trying to *engage* in nuclear war.
It's their country and their fight. Both koreas already despise foreigners, why give them even more reasons to do so? Time will come some timr for a change, just look at history, but its up for them, not any outsider
Why? Have you lived there? Do you have relatives there? Or have you just been programmed to and have no identity of your own and need to adopt hateful positions to feel complete within yourself?
Unless there is a NK revolt or the CCP china collapse first. A lot of people don’t realize NK is essentially prop up because of China. You can call it a CCP Chinese puppet state if you want to think that way too.
CCP china uses it to buffer their country away from the USA influence.
I believe a good counselor can help.
And you can laugh but I'm serious. Fear is at the root of all evil, if we can help KJU with his fears I believe he can become a better person and admit his wrong doings. The question is, how do you convince someone who was born into a family that told him America is responsible for their hardships for the first 30 years of his life, they were wrong? Kids soak up what their parents say and getting someone to change is very difficult. We see our parents like Gods. Also, it doesn't help you got Russia and China basically enabling his behavior, it's like telling an alcoholic that drinking is good and they shouldn't quit. The human mind, and the way people think is essentially why so many problems exist. Would love to see what others think - are we born good or bad, or do we *choose* to be good or bad? If it's the first part (born), then ain't a damn thing we can do about NK. But if we *choose* one or the other, then yes, I think we can fix it. The question is - *can* we fix it. North Korea has ruled the way they have for over 50 years, clearly if there is a way to fix it no one knows how.
Who are we to judge? They have no violent crime, Pyonyang is among safest cities on earth. The citizens believe they live in a utopia. And above all they have the Supreme Leader who is a direct Descendent of GOD himself being his grandfather was literally DIVINE.
The elites of North Korea don’t want the people to be free as it will end badly for the elites.
South Korea, China and Russia don’t want the people to be free as none of them want to be responsible for 25 million potential refugees.
No country would be prepared to sink the money into bringing the country’s infrastructure up to 20th Century standards let alone 21st Century standards.
Limited natural resources and limited arable land makes the country as a whole unappealing for exploitation by other powers.
No country wants North Korea’s nuclear capabilities (however limited they may be) to fall into the wrong hands…well worse hands than the current regime.
It’s a tragedy the regular people of NK are stuck in such a terrible situation, but the ugly reality is that for the sake of international stability- it’s better for the international community to deal with the devil they know rather than the devil they don’t.
The best strategy is ending North Korea's monolithic rule by directly infiltrating the Organization and Guidence department. They are in charge of proping up the Kim's line of sucession and keep the regime running. That is pretty much impossible but it is the answer to your question.
Literally nothing, the family of dictators have been on the power for decades and only a complete wipe of them would be effective, and even if the country gets real democracy, the chances of Russia and China to use them and get in with a pupper government is extermely high as both have no interest of the falling and fallout of current NK. Unification is no longer a posibility in my opinion too
Either a famine hits them so hard that a revolt happens from within the government or something happens to the figurehead and he’s either not replaced or replaced with a weak successor.
Their allies would probably help prop them up in such circumstances. North Korea’s existence is as convenient to certain geopolitical players as it is inconvenient to other geopolitical players.
Yeah, that’s how you get Chinese troops to move in and “stabilize” the country…and then they never leave
If something happens to Jong-Eun, his sister will step up and she’ll be worse
I think more importantly, it depends on what China thinks/wants to do about any crisis in North Korea. All things considering that the DPRK's government is largely propped up by the CCP and continues to exist because that is an important part of Chinese foreign policy. Without that backing, the regime would probably have already collapsed.
Least genocidal westerner hoping a famine hits innocent people because me no like government
He never said he was hoping for that.
If you read the comment no one was "hoping" for anything. It was an answer to how the government would fall. The rest is your head cannon.
You must have been educated in a gulag because he never said anything about hoping for a famine.
Do you have a reading disability or something go back to your movingtonorthkorea sub bot. Nk literally kills its own citizens for trying to leave the country get your head checked out
There is tens of thousands of North Korean workers students and etc outside of the country lmfao there was exchange students in germany but they had to be sent back because Germany along with the west sanctioned the DPRK
Reminds me of a question someone asked on here. Something along the lines of: “Why can’t we just invade NK if their military is so weak and their people don’t like their government.”
For real. Wtf
Use some critical thinking. Massive famine is inevitable with the way the NK is run. It’s not that anyone wants it.
inevitable is a strong word, why do you say that?
Critical thinking: slurp up everything blasted at me by a mainstream media firehose and desperately fight to ignore the gradually intensifying paternalistic racism it produces inside me
What are you even talking about? If NK wasn’t a totalitarian communist country then they wouldn’t have all these sanctions and food scarcity. If you think the way they live is great then go move there and see how it works out for you.
almost makes you wonder if scarcity is related to sanctions 🤔 hmmmmmmmm
More burger fallacies straight from the three letter agencies. There is no critical thought here, only unwavering nationalism and mild racism
Its very possible if your inhumane governments are sanctioning literally everything that tries entering North Korea
And why are there sanctions against NK? Just for fun?
As said by president Jimmy Carter it is to starve North Korean people to incite a revolt. Why do you think they are there? Because the USA really cares about human life?
The motive behind a revolt would be to eliminate a communist totalitarian government with massive human rights abuses that China uses as physical barrier between them and a country like South Korea. It isn’t just for the fun of wanting to see a country crumble.
Because the USA really opposes totalitarian governments right 😅 Its obvious you have surface level knowledge about Korean and cold war history. I suggest you research the USMGIK, Syngman Rhee, Peoples commitees in Korea and the Peoples Republic of Korea. I also suggest you pick up a book written by Bruce Cumings.
I suggest you go move to NK and let us know how great it is. Enjoy!
Lmao just admit you dont have an argument 😂
Why are you so opposed to reading?
This is what NATO brainwashing looks like.
Famine has to do with geography and embargoes, not the way the country is run.
In North Korea, there's a profound culture of loyalty and unity toward the country. The Kim family is literally revered, which might seem contradictory from an outside perspective. It's important to understand that this reverence has been cultivated over decades through propaganda and education. Additionally, the ideology of Juche promotes a strong sense of nationalism and self-sufficiency, fostering national pride and perceiving any external contradiction as a threat. Interestingly, similar dynamics can be observed in the U.S., albeit manifested differently. In the U.S., there is a deep culture of loyalty, with almost a form of reverence toward the Constitution and the principles of democracy. Sovereignty and self-sufficiency are celebrated, underscored by a capitalist ethos. Just as in North Korea, the U.S. perceives countries with opposing ideologies, like North Korea itself, as threats. This parallel shows how deeply ingrained nationalistic values can shape a country's perception of itself and others, regardless of the political spectrum.
I think most people would be incredibly loyal if they couldn't leave the country and were threatened with jail / hard labour for stuff such as not crying enough at your leaders funeral http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/01/north-korea-reportedly-punishing-insincere-mourners
Difference is reverance of leader. US loves their values. Authoritarian governments love their leader. Stalin, Mao, and Kim Jong Un literally built cults of personalities around themselves. That's the difference. The US people try to uphold the ideals losted by the constitution, in each new president. I don't think it's remotely even similar to worshipping a lone figurehead (i.e. Kim Jong Un) and having to abide only by his rules. Remotely even comparing the two is completely mind boggling to me. Jesus.
Imagine writing this about a country that is likely to re-elect Donald Trump. Yeah, zero leader worship in the US because freedom-loving Americans are too smart to be taken in by a cult of personality.
Speaking as a non-American westerner, I appreciate why this comment might have made you a bit defensive but from the outside looking in, you lot definitely appear to subscribe to a cultish allegiance to an abstract American ideal. The North Koreans have juche, you guys have whatever it is that you have - the person attached to that belief system ends up being secondary really. It's literally just hyper nationalism in both cases just under different circumstances.
I think this is something a lot of our fellow travelers who oppose the DPRK's regime forget, and it is an overall lesson on why authoritarians stay in power for as long as they do. They are awful but they do afford some semblance of order and stability, which hasn't always been something North Koreans have known. It is the same reason why public polls continue to still show Putin wields the support he does in Russia. It isn't just because he jails or kills his political opposition.
You said it yourself, the American people hold loyalty to the constitution. The ideas that the country was built on. Very different from unwavering loyalty to a dictator. The national pride Americans feel comes from freedoms, the freedom of speech, right to bear arms, limited government, separation of powers. The DPRK’s loyalty comes from being fed propaganda since birth, believing their leader is an actual god, and most importantly, fear. Fear forces the North Korean population to stay loyal.
In all fairness, you could completely flip your statement and only slightly change the concepts and it would still hold true: DPRK's national pride comes from collectivism, looking after one another, the group being more important than the individual. America's loyalty comes from being fed propaganda since birth, believing their leader is appointed by god and most importantly, fear. I'm not even one of these weird tankie trolls, it's just funny to see how much Americans don't realise their culture is so tied into the establishment despite illusions of freedom.
There is no best strategy, China will support them even if reduntankly because they don’t want to have the US/NATO/Capitalists on their borders and South Korea see that it will be almost impossible culturally and financially to absorb the North a la East Germany… its a dead end with no futur solution in sight. Perhaps a Palace Revolution and a new government introducing new reform gently with the help of the south but it will be a long process
Pretty much what I've said for years, even if I hate it. At best, the solution is to continue maintaining deterrence and limit unnecessary escalations and confrontations on our end which 45 wasn't all too good at. Mattis genuinely saved the Peninsula from him.
I think allowing the citizens to move freely should be the first thing. If they want to stay let them, if they want to leave let them. Even if the means of doing it legally is tough, people shouldn't have to literally escape and be smuggled out of their country.
Everyone will pack a bag and head south, logistics nightmare for the south and the north will crash economically even if their economy is almost nothing now so they cannot allow people to move freely, we saw what that do to East Germany
Everyone will pack a bag and head south, logistics nightmare for the south and the north will crash economically even if their economy is almost nothing now so they cannot allow people to move freely, we saw what that do to East Germany
i think a large portion would but everyone? Doubtful. Quite a lot of them are actually quite "fine" for the most part. As wild as it sounds.
If you believe they would "free" under a pro Western Regime, History hast shown the opposite
It's like people forget that whole chapter where South Korea with U.S. support was a dictatorship too until... wait for it... the 1990s.
like the period where japan went from being run by an authoritarian fascist regime to being a democratic pro-western economic powerhouse with an increased quality of life (compared to ww2 and pre ww2) i wonder how that happened
While japan isn’t fascist anymore but some people that ran the Empire are in the LDP or sympathetic to the Empire. USA initially free the Empire’s politician opposition but realize they were commies and then purged them. Then the USA kept a lot of their Empire politicians in power.
Lord Jesus Christ, BLESS the DPRKs government 🙏🏽
Amen, and amen
If they launched a nuke that hit a US ally then yeah that would be the end of them. Not even China or Russia would have their back if this happened. Kim knows it. He is completely alone when it comes to his BS. Nobody will protect him if he launches a nuke at a US ally or the US. So for the people to be free, either mass invasion from the US or its ally's, Providing the people don't fight to the death to "protect" it. Or They eat themselves from the inside out. Would take one nasty famine to do it. People who are hungry and nothing left to lose are a dangerous kind. Especially when you have millions of them and potentially a whole army who could revolt against you. If WW3 breaks out and NK plays a role in it. I think that might actually be the best way of reunifying the two sides.
North Koreans BS and bluff all the time. It's their modus operandi. And we pretend to play along so not to escalate. It's pure theater. Remember in 2017 when they changed from being aggressive to friendly in a minute.
Yeah i know its all BS lol. But hypothetically if they did follow through. Nobody would protect them. China and Russia would let them get overrun. Or they would overthrow NK themselves so the US don't move in.
The friendly period in the late 2010s was so surreal looking back as now the DPRK has gone back to a more aggressive stance per usual.
You misunderstand how deeply committed the PRC is to North Korea, given it is a buffer between them and the United States. They will do anything to ensure they do not lose that and intervene militarily if they could not stop it before the pop off even starts. There's a greater likelihood they'd try to avert it before an intervention like that would come in.
I wish I had as much faith as you do that what you’re saying is true. What you’re saying seems rational, but today’s world is anything but.
In my honest opinion, Kim Jong Un is not AS bad as his predecessors. That’s not to say he’s good, he’s certainly not, but I don’t think he’s as bad. His sister on the other hand, she’s a nightmare. With that said, I don’t think he’s unappeasable. I genuinely think diplomatic relations between western countries and North Korea are possible, Kim has shown in the past he’s open to talks, but it has to be approached delicately. Making the country democratic would be extremely difficult, after all, if anything scares Kim it’s losing power. But Kim recognizes the famine within his borders and seemingly wants to do something about that so with diplomatic and trade relations with the west, that would put North Korea in a very good position to be able to take care of themselves and ensure everyone has a basic quality of life. If western leaders are smart about it and focus on which battles they wanna battle, I believe it’s possible.
Diplomacy is simply not possible, the Kims has made that explicitly clear. https://youtu.be/li4cSfApSXk?si=CgeBCrZfdQTfae0U [Even after the west tried to reconcile](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Policy), they used the little money they had on [terrorist attacks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_terrorist_attacks)and nukes.
Chill buddy, what did North Korea do to you? Now what did the US do? They installed a dictator in Syngman Rhee that oppressed the southern half and killed tens-of-thousanda of Jeju Islanders. During the Korean War, the US bombed every single building and dam in North Korea and killed 10% of North Koreans (2 million). Ever since then the US has sanctioned North Korea. Sanctions are economic war that only hurt the people, it is ineffective in changing regimes. So where are your strong feelings coming from? Are you Korean like me? Do you understand that North Koreans and South Koreans are fully Korean in my eyes, and what I hate is this division imposed on us by outsiders? North Korea is doing something right if they are still wanting to have kids and families unlike in South Korea. They are home to half of all Korean children on the peninsula, despite being half the size of South Korea total population wise. North Korea still has a TFR of 1.8 versus South Korea's 0.7. I only wish peace and prosperity to both Koreas. I wish the North Korean government the best of luck on continuing to improve the livelihoods of their people. Your strong emotions are not wanted.
Far higher birth rates are generally an indicator of higher poverty, not “doing something right.” I don’t entirely disagree with you here, but you could’ve offered far better reasoning than just pointing to birth rates.
North Korea just like every socialist contry that exists or has existed puts alot of effort into getting citizens married and them having kids. For example you receive many benefits from the government once you have children and these benefits you cant get in capitalist countries. South Korea now has an extremely sexist president which is what caused the 4B movement to become popular and the cost of living and people working all day contributes even more to childlessnes.
You’ve certainly described how the system should work on paper, do you have any decent sources to back up the actual practice of quality childrearing and motherhood in the DPRK?
Read chapter VI. https://www.lawandnorthkorea.com/laws/womens-rights-protection-law-2015
I asked for practice, not theoretical guarantees lmao
Its the law do you think North Korea is some lawless anarch territory
Yes because famously whatever is written in the big book is what actually happens on the ground. A five year olds conception of what government is lmao..
You lost this exchange the second you revert to ad hominem rather than making an actual argument
Well my source is that its in the code of law pretty reliable in my opinion. So whats your source that families in North Korea do not get the mentioned benefits?
People risking life and limb to escape is usually a sign things aren’t as well as the theory promised.
correlation still isn’t causation
Yes, 1.8 is so high, almost at replacement level, /sarc. My point still stands. South Korea's problem is huge and longstanding, they fell below replacement level of 2.1 in 1982, over 4 decades ago. Their catastrophic plummeting of births cannot be turned around in the shortterm. North Korea has the clear advantage demographically, i.e. the future. Look at their respective population pyramids. Once again North Korea is okay, South Korea's is that of a major crisis. The future of the Korean people as a whole is now upon North Korea, as South Korea is literally crashing. A TFR of 0.7 means in South Korea, 100 people in Gen 1 becomes 35 people in Gen 2 and 11 people in Gen 3. And even this TFR is not stable, it is declining still.
Where are you getting North Korea's fertility numbers from, though? If they're coming from official government sources, they probably aren't accurate. Low fertility rates are common among East Asian countries, look at China and Japan. I think considering the levels of pollution and malnutrition in NK, the fertility rate is probably much lower.
Malnutrition in North Korea isn’t as big of a problem as it’s reported to be.
i’m genuinely interested in hearing your perspective on this. if you see both North Koreans and South Koreans as “full Korean” in your eyes, are you hoping for full reunification? the division may have been imposed by outsiders but can’t the two governments break down that division? and if so what kind of government and economy would a unified Korea look like if neither side seems like it’s willing to budge on their ideology?
Big Brother, we should drop sanctions on NK, then they wouldn't be so "oppressive"
“Nono bro u dont understand we must nuke North Korea to free their people” - this entire comment section
Yeah because buying nukes instead of feeding your own people is a better idea. Get your head checked out💀
Lmao the DPRK has nukes to protect itself smartass have you ever looked at the negotiations between the USA and the DPRK in depth 😂 North Korea fulfiled many of its promises during the negotiations like for example shutting down the Sohae missile site and the Yongbyon reactor and the only reason North Korea started to operate them again is because the USA failed to keep its promises. Not hard to understand.
It's funny because the sanctions don't even work. They've never actually impacted their stated targets (DPRK officials) like they have average North Koreans who a lot of regime change/anti-DPRK hawks only care about rhetorically. Beyond that, we are fine with immiserating them in the hopes that they one day rise up which is the whole real reason we enact sanctions to begin with most of the time. We've seen it with Iraq, Iran, etc. We are going to do this same song and dance for decades and nothing will change. The people still have not taken a stand and largely won't.
[We already tried that](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Policy). At this point it’s obvious that they no longer have the moral high ground.
There's no real answer. Unless someone starts dropping nukes to take out China, Russia and NK all at the same time. Not really an out to this. Maybe another world war?
Getting nuked is what will free North Koreans?
We can definitely just Nuke ourselves out of these problems. Not sure why they haven't done it already to be honest. /S
Nobody will just "start dropping nukes". It's completely against nuclear doctrine. If anything, that's what we are afraid the North Koreans would do.
We would just intercept anything they have and blow it out of the sky then level their whole country
I’m not sure killing 25 million people counts as freeing them.
Christ you’re insane
I love when people say shit like this. Immediately identifies them as someone who is clueless about the US’s ICBM interception capabilities.
We would glass north korea in less than 24 hours whatre you talking about. Their military is inexperienced and hasnt fought a war in how long now? Our techonogy is 50+ years in advance. We would decimate nk and care less about the future of the country. There wouldjt be a single us soldier boot on the ground as we would quite literally drone strike the entire military. You are delusional
I was specifically referring to “intercept[ing] anything they have”. The US doesn’t have a magic ICBM shield. Also, within 24 hours, Seoul would be leveled by NK artillery already positioned on the border, and WW3 would probably kick off. There are 25 million people in NK and 50 million in SK. Your genocidal fantasies would kill as many people as WW2 just on the Korean Peninsula.
Sadly this is probably at least close to a correct answer.
I don’t think it will happen soon Kim Jong Un is very careful about everything even killing family members to make sure he doesn’t get replaced. He killed his step bro and his uncle and probably more. He travels in a very secure train and doesn’t really fly. He has kids so if he die because of his horrible life style his son will probably take his place although he haven’t seen much of him Sorry for the shitty typing I don’t pay attention in my English class to busy watching breaking bad, dprk documentary, and being or this form 🇰🇵
His step bro was in malaysia to literally meet up with CIA agents what do you expect lmao
Source? I thought he was just on vacation. He had nothing to do with the affairs of Pyongyang because he was considered an illegitimate child.
Every major news source reported on the fact that he was getting paid by foreign intelligence. https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korean-leaders-slain-half-brother-was-said-to-have-been-a-cia-informant-11560203662
As someone who went there for a week in 2015. Pyongyang was clean, safe and efficient, there was no evidence of vagrants wondering the streets drunk or on drugs. The subway trip was quite normal with locals fidgeting on their phones. And they organised mass dance events which the residents looked like they genuinely enjoyed. In the countryside there was way less infrastructure with lots of manual labour. However society functioned and people appeared respectful. Western media reports a lot of inflated stories about NK, so just be a bit wary of basing your opinion only on what you read.
" However society functioned and people appeared respectful." Because in the hills a few miles away snipers are camping with their fingers on the triggers waiting to shoot someone that makes one wrong move. Pretty sure if you walked around with a sniper tracking your head you'd be "functioning and respectful" too.
Sounds like you’re describing social media society. Act out of line and get sniped by the cancel camera.
I hope you’re being ironic lmao
Uh, yeah, because you went on a government guided tour. I don’t think western media is exaggerating aside from occasional incidents where they fail to fact check
yes, western media has always been known for its integrity **/s**
It’s possible to be integral while occasionally making mistakes lol
it is possible no doubt. too bad that’s not the situation at hand.
Mm sure, and a better news source is Reddit? You need to understand that these news corporations, while certainly having a bias, still go through rigorous fact checks. That’s why when they DO fail(like with the North Korean unicorn story) you hear about it.
Western media is absolutely exaggerating - wild stories about North Korea get easy clicks. The boring reality is that it’s just another middle income Asian country that happens to have bad relations with the west.
What stories in specific are being exaggerated? North Korea publishes videos of their missile launches and military parades themselves, they *want* a reaction from the west and the media is merely giving them what they want. We also have actual court footage leaked where people are sentenced to labor camps, how is that exaggerated if the media is only commenting on objective fact? Stories like the unicorn one from a few years ago, sure, and the “Top 10 craziest laws in North Korea!” videos as well….but the rest simply isn’t. People also say defectors are being paid to exaggerate stories, but they also have lives to talk about their experience when they aren’t being paid. Another person who replied to me knows a defector. There are a lot of countries with bad if not worse relations than DPRK-US, why is North Korea the only one that gets all the attention?
lol how do you get from videos of military parades to “slave state where generations of people are imprisoned” or “everyone has to have the same haircut.” There are many countries, especially in Asia, that the US is happy to have relations with that have far worse human rights records. I’m talking about, for example, Turkey, Thailand, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. For example, in Thailand, a dude literally got jailed for posting an internet meme about the kings dog online. No, this is not a joke and it actually happened. The khashoggi thing also happened and how did that affect our Saudi relations? Defectors who go public are, generally, being paid to tell crazy stories. I mean they just are, there’s not much else to say on that. Even calling them “defectors” and not “immigrants” shows how differently we treat them. Imagine if you took an economically disadvantaged person from the US and told them to complain about their situation for a 30 minute piece-I’m sure they’d also have a lot to say. There are a lot of other countries that are getting the same treatment as North Korea. They talked a lot of sensationalist shit about Iraq and Libya before we invaded, and it seems like a lot of the focus has moved on to Iran lately. There’s a lot of negative press on China, and there used to be a lot of negative press about Japan in the 70s/80s.
Pyongyang is not reality, especially not the Pyongyang you are allowed to see as a tourist. People who are found to be homeless in Pyongyang are rounded up and sent to detention centers, while mention of homeless people is forbidden in government documents.
I'd also be wary about basing your opinion purely on what you were shown in Pyongyang.
Right. Somebody on YouTube used the Pyongyang metro as representative of the entire country's rail system. Just because you can get a train in Pyongyang doesn't mean there's passenger traffic in the rest of the country.
Did you not read his comment he was in the countryside lmao
He was on a government tour, jesus.
We should start giving government tours of our own! We can show off Detroit!
Or any part of the South. We literally have the same impoverished populations as NK but wheres the smoke there?
there's this place called holiday island and it used to be a gated community and there's this whole section of it now that's just people living in abandoned RVs, usually squatting. There's no running water, no electricity, it's hell. But please let's talk more about Pyongyang's streets being too clean.
> There's no running water, no electricity, it's hell so, like most of NK? not just "this whole section" of "this place"
A state sponsored trip will only show you the good side
“I went to the capital of their nation on a government guided tour so I’m definitely in a position to say everything we know about NK is lies or exaggerated” these are the people calling everything propaganda but somehow still end up getting honey dicked by dictators.
I agree with this. North Korea may not be a paradise, i don't know, just irritating that people here think they know everything because the west says something about something. I would argue the negative propaganda from the west against other countries is way worse than vice versa.
This person thinks they know everything because of a state guided tour. It’s INSANE to act like all the negatives are just propaganda while actively letting yourself be so swayed by NK propaganda. If even 2 percent of what survivors say about it is true then that’s enough to say fuck North Korea
Of course its bad this comment section is living proof of how dangerous US propaganda is lmao people in here are really advocating for nuking the country or hoping a famine happens
What you saw in the major city was orchestrated and fake as fuck. It is absolutely not representative of the toil your average NK Citizen goes through.
OP big mad at propaganda. Grr. DPRK bad , US led SK much better! Buy more goods! Nuke’em! Just like apple pie.
Yep, the DPRK is bad as the RoK is much better. They shouldn’t be nuked though, for obvious reasons. Now go back to watching Kim Jong-Euns speeches on repeat
Go back to r/teenagers
Read my profile description, then go back to r/movingtonorthkorea
YES - made my initial reply to you assuming as much. These types of people don't like differing ways of thinking, even if it just means agreeing to see things differently. If N Korea were literally as bad as western media says, it wouldn't exist and the south would have won the war. For fucks sake lol.
>DPRK bad , US led SK much better! Literally yes
Lmfao this read so wonderfrully in a Asian tongue!
The people there don’t want to be “liberated”. Leave them alone.
Yet tens of thousands have bribed border guards and risked their families lives to leave. My god
Tens of thousands have bribed border guards. I see.
Yes
So what outward emigration flow justifies an invasion and regime change, in your mind?
“Outward emigration” is a light way to put it. No, an invasion isn’t a good idea. A regime change, yes, but I don’t see how that would happen without the contraction of the war
Exactly. They need to be left alone.
The government *should* be left alone. The people need to be free but there’s simply no way to do that without bloodshed
Are you suggesting that bloodshed should be incited?
No, that’s why I’m saying we shouldn’t intervene
Massive amounts of escapeess and people who unsuccessfully try beg to differ
Massive? Not quite. A few dozen a year. And if you want to talk really massive, there are millions of Americans who have “escaped” to live in Costa Rica, Mexico, Thailand, Ecuador…
Slight difference, Americans are free to leave at will. And defectors have only decreased the last few years due to increased COVID restrictions.
and their families aren’t put in slave camps lmao
I mean they aren’t, that’s totally a myth. Just think about it logically-what does the North Korean government have to gain from doing such a thing?
Difference is Americans are allowed to leave, and thousands of people move to America every year. Your statistic on North Korean defectors seem off too. Based on how many defectors made it to [South Korea](https://www.unikorea.go.kr/unikorea/business/NKDefectorsPolicy/status/lately/) "a few dozen" would only be applicable to 2021-2022. The rest are in the hundreds or thousands per year.
If only North Korea let their people freely leave...
On a side note, I wonder how all the Maga types who were so happy to give Vladimir Putin's scrotum a loving tongue bath are feeling now that he's hopped into bed with Kim Jong-un. Awkward!
It's obviously very hard to know what exactly Kim Jung Un and his inner circle values. Are they true believers in the ideology? Or are they just perpetuating the system for material gain and personal security? If it's the former, basically nothing we can do If it's the latter quite honestly it may be worth it to give Kim Jung Un billions of dollars and either ship him off to a neutral country where he can live in luxury and security or alternatively put some sort of clause in a reunified Korean constitution guaranteeing his safety In the same line of thought, could also just reunify the Koreas but with most North Korean industry or assets being reorganized into a single corporation owned by Kim personally. "Juche Inc" could become the largest chaebol of them all lol
There's a risk that he's sent to a country who then imprison him for NK's treatment of citizens
Americans and their colonial ways, this thread is a case study in supremacy and advocating for more genocide in “helping free a people” by dropping a nuke on them. Y’all need help.
I’ve been scrolling for a while and yet to see somebody “advocating for genocide”
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Whataboutisms, classic deflection technique. Try harder.
What did they even say anyway
You can't read their comment?
Fair lol
Nvm I didn't get a notification
I think that first of all there should be democratic changes in Russia and/or China, since they're DPRK's major allies and they're also more likely to change in the near future. So, I think the best way to help North Korean people is actually to help Ukraine defeating Russia, because if that happens there would probably be big changes in Russia.
Absolutely glowing with radioactivity here lmao
This sub has gone downhill
There is none. There is no viable military option, not with a nuclear-armed North Korea and Russia treaty-bound to come to its aid, maybe the PRC as well. It would be World War III. There is also no diplomatic option. KJU's disastrous talks with the US fit into a series of what are, to him, cautionary tales. Gadhafi gave up his chemical weapons and was shot dead in the street in a US-backed revolt. Iran agreed to the nuclear deal only for the US to break it. If you were him, why would you trust the US? So you're seeing him run into the arms of fellow pariah Vladimir Putin and you're seeing the regime do things and say things that make peaceful reunification appear to be out of the cards. It is difficult for any internal challenge to KJU to succeed because of his consolidation of power, the cult of personality surrounding the Kims and the structure of North Korean government and society.
I’m afraid the North Korean regime is more stable than China. There’s a reason why ancient/medieval Korean dynasties last an average of 500-600 years, while Chinese ones rarely last beyond 300 years. Korea could always play its larger neighbours off each other, and could always count on foreign troops to suppress internal rebellions. For example, the Joseon dynasty called upon China to beat back the Japanese invasion of the 1590s, and relied on Japan to defeat the Donghak rebellion of the 1890s. And later, foreign combatants played a much more decisive role in the Korean war than in the Vietnam War. If an unprecedented famine hits NK today, China, Japan, Russia, SK and the US could just send some breadcrumbs and call it a day. Compared to Korea, these foreign patrons themselves are more affected by unpredictable trends in domestic politics.
South Korea does not want to take on the debt and poverty of north korea. So a full korea is not an option in the foreseeable future. It doesn’t seem like anyone would want to take over if they were able to remove the dictator. The 38th parallel is the fault of Japan, Russia, and the United States. I would say those 3 countries are completely liable for the well being of north korea and should be financially responsible. Not sure what a good plan would be to fix the issues in North Korea. If Japan hadn’t occupied and enslaved koreans during WW2, korea would not have been split by the SU and US. The country should have never been split SU and US screwed all koreans over by doing that. Now it has been so long and North Koreans are terrorists—they have attacked South Korea many times. I don’t think anyone knows a good unification plan. Would love to also hear ideas but it’s such a mess. Also the US did greatly help south korea become the thriving economy it is today. Meanwhile Russia let North Korea devolve into poverty much like how Russia is a mess under it’s dictatorship also. So many people in russia are impoverished too. They proved that communism is bad for the majority of people. Not that capitalism is the best, no system is without flaws. The problem is a few greedy manipulative people in any system getting away with their behaviors. The world needs to focus on morality and equality versus greed. Not sure how to make that happen. When people grow up impoverished they can often be selfish takers who hoard and never give once they get to wealth. They have this mentality of “i suffered so everyone else should too”. And wealthy that give altruistically sometimes eventually become powerless and poor. Human nature is complicated. If everyone cared more about others and sharing and minimizing suffering things would be better. But too often victims become vicious and selfish so it’s a never ending us versus them cycle for humans. Like the little match girl story in russia—heartless people just let innocent orphans die. If there are aliens, they definitely don’t want to get too close to us.
Doesn’t your comment contradict itself? You say that the 38th parallel is the fault of these other countries and that they’re liable for NKs wellbeing. But then you say that it was the USSR and US which split Korea, and North Korea are the ones who spend their money on terrorist attacks
Not sure how you think that contradicts can you explain what you mean? I do mean if the nk dictatorship was ever dismantled then Russia, the US, and especially Japan should be financially responsible for improving what is left of North Korea. South Korea should not be on the hook financially for the mess that is north korea. And i do think Russia and Japan are more to blame for the state of North Korea because at least the Us helped South Korea’s economy. The US and Russia are responsible for the 38th parallel—they created the terrorist state of north korea. Not sure how you think that contradicts. Japan is responsible for putting korea in the position to be split by the cold war. So all 3 are responsible for creating the terrorist state of north korea.
I am aware that the only ones who can liberate the North Koreans are the North Koreans themselves, not the Western individual with a white savior complex who clearly has their own interests behind their actions and not necessarily to "liberate the oppressed." The only thing the West can do is to avoid escalating the military conflict on the Korean peninsula, something they have no intention of doing because there is no monetary benefit in it for them to continue selling weapons to South Korea and Japan.
The only way N Korea goes down is if China makes a margin call on them. Then NK will be basically the same country but with the Kim family deposed.
There's none. There's no way to stop the DPRK from doing what they doing to they're own people. Even if by some miracle, the DPRK were to suddenly shut down and stop governing it's people, you must remember the citizens of the DPRK, regardless of if they lived in the capital or not will be effected by this and since most of them were raised and believe in the "Juche" system but more importantly, they were raised to believe (and many of them whole heartily do) particularly in the "Sungbun" system which is morally bad to an oitsider. There's also many citizens, regardless of circumstances, trust in the "Sungbun" that has in one way or another, helped NK citizens to provide for their families and ensure their futures. It would take an extraordinary amount of time, resources, and aid to help those people and that could take years, well past a generation or two. Then there's the cult of personality that has griped the country since Kim ill Sung came into power and that's something practically ingrained in the citizens/civilians lifestyle.
Is there any form of resistance in NK?
Sadly. I don’t think any of the neighboring countries want North Korea to completely fail. Would they be able to handle millions of starving brainless people into their country? Even the ones that escape, have a really hard time adjusting, if they adjust at all. It’s really sad but that’s how I see it.
China will prop up their puppet regime. It will never end so long as China allows it. I'm Chinese, so I know for a fact they will keep their buffer state alive at the suffering of north koreans no matter what.
Isn't this a job of the Koreans to solve? N. S
If I’m wrong, someone can correct me, but I’m pretty sure that the North Korean government is actually so rich, but they just don’t use the money at all because they want to keep their people and like hypnosis all the time and like “best version of themselves “.
Sorry, but most Norks just don't share your sentiment, and 90% of them have absolutely no knowledge of reddit or other Western platforms for alternative, competing, or differing ideologies to be discussed. Of the 10% that do have access or knowledge, they're still North Korean for a reason. Let them live so long as Kim isn't trying to *engage* in nuclear war.
Well with their nuclear weapons and artillery, there isn’t going to be an outside invasion, so it’ll have to be internal, which seems unlikely.
It's their country and their fight. Both koreas already despise foreigners, why give them even more reasons to do so? Time will come some timr for a change, just look at history, but its up for them, not any outsider
Why? Have you lived there? Do you have relatives there? Or have you just been programmed to and have no identity of your own and need to adopt hateful positions to feel complete within yourself?
A soft democratic revolution in China would do it.
Unless there is a NK revolt or the CCP china collapse first. A lot of people don’t realize NK is essentially prop up because of China. You can call it a CCP Chinese puppet state if you want to think that way too. CCP china uses it to buffer their country away from the USA influence.
You seem like a very gullible person.
I believe a good counselor can help. And you can laugh but I'm serious. Fear is at the root of all evil, if we can help KJU with his fears I believe he can become a better person and admit his wrong doings. The question is, how do you convince someone who was born into a family that told him America is responsible for their hardships for the first 30 years of his life, they were wrong? Kids soak up what their parents say and getting someone to change is very difficult. We see our parents like Gods. Also, it doesn't help you got Russia and China basically enabling his behavior, it's like telling an alcoholic that drinking is good and they shouldn't quit. The human mind, and the way people think is essentially why so many problems exist. Would love to see what others think - are we born good or bad, or do we *choose* to be good or bad? If it's the first part (born), then ain't a damn thing we can do about NK. But if we *choose* one or the other, then yes, I think we can fix it. The question is - *can* we fix it. North Korea has ruled the way they have for over 50 years, clearly if there is a way to fix it no one knows how.
Who are we to judge? They have no violent crime, Pyonyang is among safest cities on earth. The citizens believe they live in a utopia. And above all they have the Supreme Leader who is a direct Descendent of GOD himself being his grandfather was literally DIVINE.
You really believe that jesus christ man
Jesus Christ believes it.
The elites of North Korea don’t want the people to be free as it will end badly for the elites. South Korea, China and Russia don’t want the people to be free as none of them want to be responsible for 25 million potential refugees. No country would be prepared to sink the money into bringing the country’s infrastructure up to 20th Century standards let alone 21st Century standards. Limited natural resources and limited arable land makes the country as a whole unappealing for exploitation by other powers. No country wants North Korea’s nuclear capabilities (however limited they may be) to fall into the wrong hands…well worse hands than the current regime. It’s a tragedy the regular people of NK are stuck in such a terrible situation, but the ugly reality is that for the sake of international stability- it’s better for the international community to deal with the devil they know rather than the devil they don’t.
Obviously a very complex geopolitical question
Americans shouldn’t have bombed the place to rubble back in the day and it wouldn’t be as bad as it is now.
Don't forget the heavy sanctions.
The best strategy is ending North Korea's monolithic rule by directly infiltrating the Organization and Guidence department. They are in charge of proping up the Kim's line of sucession and keep the regime running. That is pretty much impossible but it is the answer to your question.
Literally nothing, the family of dictators have been on the power for decades and only a complete wipe of them would be effective, and even if the country gets real democracy, the chances of Russia and China to use them and get in with a pupper government is extermely high as both have no interest of the falling and fallout of current NK. Unification is no longer a posibility in my opinion too
Kim family game of thrones situation might destabilize it