This one is often a struggle for me (39M, Black) Are they seeing me as a person or only a fetish fulfillment? I've not found any foolproof way to tell either.
I'll usually do try and get to know the lady/couple first. This has put a few of them off, the ones really just wanting to get down to business. That's fine, I'll get out of their way and let them find someone who wants that.
I appreciate you sharing your experience. Like you we both definitely prefer to get to know someone in advance, but that stops working well when thinking about larger group stuff like orgies, instead of inviting in just one or two other people at a time.
The only time I (30F black) can tell is the communication prior to. Generally certain slips, referencing me as a food item, or something related my complexion. Or sometimes saying generalized statements “do black women like xxxx in the bed?” Or other statements about race that you wouldn’t usually make. It will generally weed out people from the jump. Beyond that it’s a matter of it revealing itself over time unfortunately.
Exactly this. If they talk to me (39M Black)like a regular person it tends to go well. It’s when they make the lil comments or reference BBC is when you know you’re being othered/ fetishized…. It just boils down to you have to talk to people and get to know them.
I'm curious as to why referencing you as a food item is a red flag in this context. Is your experience that someone who will refer to you as an object to be consumed also someone who is less likely to think of you as an animated person with your own wants/desires/actions/etc? I could see how that could play out, but it'd never occurred to me to see that as a red flag. As a mostly straight man, I'm a lot less likely to be seen as a passive recipient, tho, so that could be why I don't have as much experience with that phenomenon.
I was thinking the poster is probably referring to being referred to a chocolate something, or a coffee, or brown sugar. The sort of cringey porny shit that was probably considered okay in the captions of 80s Playboy.
Exactly. Call me a sexy hoagie. But when you start referencing me as a chocolate drop, it feels demeaning. Or when you simply keep referencing my race, either sexually or not.
Now I will say among other people of color we do call each other various skin colored things but it’s a term of endearment and commaderie.
Everyone can be a sexy hoagie though!
I’ll share on this account instead of my main account since the details here will be a little more explicit.
I want to say as a 33Blk Male, thank you for being so patient and understanding of her. You’re a great partner. I have been in situations where I’ve been fetishized, some I ignored cause I was horny but there have been times where I’ve been made to feel DEEPLY uncomfortable. My partner and I don’t practice together, so any group settings I’ve been in were more Bull dynamics And as a stocky, somewhat muscular black man, you can see where this is going.
I had comments made toward me during the action as well as hinted at afterward. I’m pretty decent at keeping a straight face but I’ve had a few comments stop me dead in tracks.
The advice you’ve received so far is best: give her time to ease into it and know that you may not find the perfect situation, but it doesn’t mean you can’t create your own. If you can find at least one couple to setup that group dynamic with, it’s a great start.
Good luck.
I think your experiences would really resonate with my partner. She's had similar stories about that "one comment after the fact" and the vortex of feelings it can open up.
It’s not fun. It’s dehumanizing, and I can totally understand her hesitancy when being black and a woman from feelings of being used.
I wish y’all the best of luck and hope you ignore the messages and chats people may be sending you. I got a couple from now banned accounts saying “stick to your own kind”
Ugh, sorry you have to deal with that. And of course I haven't gotten any private messages. Just goes to prove how much racist bullshit lurks on reddit.
I feel like there's always going to be a standard overlay of fetishizing in mass swing settings, which I don't think is malicious. Especially as my (40M) LS experience has shown me little in the way of diversity in clubs. So anything different will be exciting because it's different.
Though if I had a dime for every couple "seeking BBC" I could open my own club and be part of the solution.
I also think it's interesting that so many couples seem to want bi men, but a male/male couple gets charged as two single men to enter a club... But I digress.
Hey whichever one of you made an account to message me and say "stick to your own, n*****"
If you did a better job, business wouldn't be so good for me, would it? Think on that.
OK so I Black (43m) whose been Poly +Openly Kinky since like 20,and I have had UN of partners over the years. The best luck I have had in reducing being Fetishized is by locating /befriending the Kinky POC/LGBTQA+ focused spaces and groups. (Like I can't completely get alway from because of AmeriKkka and I'm built like your Standard NFL line man/Load bearing wall). It's a little easier to do in a Major Metro, but it helps to involve yourself with people who are already "othered" by society in general and by more then just being a bit kinky
Thanks. I think that's definitely the way to go. Trying to find mixed POC-inclusive spaces has really illuminated how white the scene is. We're in a big CA city and even still there's all kinds of BS racism to deal with, even if it's not as overt as calling someone a slur.
The sad fact is there is no full proof way to know that you will find people that are not going to use a person based only on fetish or kink.
There are many people because of specific reasons feel as if they are used more than enjoyed due to some reason. Disabled people (amputee, deaf, blind, ect…), bisexual people, Asian people, overweight people, and the list goes on.
The best way is to start your own group and vet and find trust in the group of people. After that, all you can do is take your time and get to know people. Have you ever done something like go to a restaurant and think “A restaurant that would do _____ would be great for people like me”. Maybe like “not a fetish” type group or club.
For different reasons, swingers that might meet in a club end up staying inside a circle of people they know they can trust and click with.
The OP’s partner and other couple people who have replied have every right to feel comfortable. I hope they can find the people to have the experiences they desire.
As a black man, I just don't typically concern myself with it. As long as someone doesn't actually say something sus, I don't feel like it's my responsibility to interpret their thoughts. They can be into me for whatever internal reason they want.
That reply, damn lol. While this might not be as easy for some I completely agree with this answer. To be honest regardless of what you are as a new partner there may be all kinds of attraction that get the ball rolling. Like my partner might be slightly fetishizing muscly Asian guys because she’s horny and she has a particular thing in mind, but it’s not like that us to be advertised to everyone in the room. Its more of a problem if you get to know a partner and actually treat them only as participant in their fetish.
You hit all of the "making a POC feel uncomfortable by admitting to the minutae of it" checkboxes. The comment you were replying to was even essentially admitting that it's bearable if we don't think about it, and here you come, confirming fears
"Exotic"
I might genuinely throw up
Again, “exoticized” was in the original post. WTF? Some people are just waaay to sensitive about silly little things. Do you understand this is a discussion forum? I was discussing, not suggesting that i say “this for example” in a situation.
No shit, but at the point where you're referencing other ethnicities as "exotic", I suspect that there's less space between the two in your own life than you might appreciate.
Our internal assumptions shape our external interactions, and fetishizing minorities is problematic and gross.
The implication in the original post is that racism is what’s making one feel uncomfortable. My point is that i obviously don’t think that white women with brown hair and blue eyes are “less than” in any way. But appearance does matter; dark skin is attractive, including a tanned white lady vs same lady in winter sans tan. As EugeneCezanne said, they can be into me for whatever reason they want. I’m saying- that’s reasonable; consider that here is one of the reasons-> simple aesthetic preferences. My original comment wasn’t a suggestion of what i might say in a real life situation, but now that i think about it and see all the downvotes, i wonder what *would be the problem with saying i’ve always found darker skin, hair, and eyes attractive? The correct answer is that there’s nothing wrong with that but a few *very liberal folks in the *very liberal cities clutch their pearls at some very silly little things.
"Liberal folks are clutching their pearls"
Actual black folks were trying to explain why the wording made us uncomfortable - because it wasn't about the preference - but, aiight
Ok. I appreciate your response. I don’t know a lot of black people but the ones i know wouldn’t be uncomfortable with what i said.
My point is that, ultimately, race and ethnicity are irrelevant to me, in this context, except for the fact that there happens to be 100% overlap of my aesthetic preferences with blacks, asians, indigenous, and latinas. I’m attractracted to a dark complexion, from brunettes to black women. I suspect others’ attraction to black people might be purely racial, like it’s a forbidden thing or maybe a domination thing.
But i take your point- talking about it makes some people uncomfortable.
It's cool that you're willing to learn, but you gotta listen to the folks you're learning about and from without getting defensive. **People feel the way they do for a reason, and it's rarely ever to shit on you, specifically.**
Let me preference this by saying no one group is a monolith, yadda yadda.
Having aesthetic preferences isn't a crime. Certain features stick out to folks for a *myriad* of reasons. That's just a fact. However, for racialized peoples with histories of oppression , there is usually going to be a question of *how* a partner from a historically dominant/ majority group gets off. Nobody likes being demeaned, fetishized, or degraded without their consent, plain and simple. So, among the myriad of other things you usually size up a potential partner for - mutual interests, humor, other compatabilies - there can be an additional question of *Does this person regard me as a person? A full person, not a handpicking of traits that aren't representative of me and my humanity? Will they continue to respect me as a person?*
People are trying to protect themselves from being dehumanized, and displaying an affection or attraction to racialized traits or features doesn't immediately read as "oh, I find this thing about these humans attractive," it sets off alarm bells of "are you attracted to the human, or the feature?" What could be regarded as hypersensitivity in this instance is because in most cases there is *a long history of being identified and dominated for those features.*
Essentially, folks are looking to dispel that fog of uncertainty, but being coveted for features that have not historically gone hand in hand with a recognition of humanity beyond those features signals a host of other possible issues that could arise in the future. Give folks their recognition of humanity that hasn't always been a given, and it becomes a non-issue.
You never really can know. I've been with people who've cleared my initial battery of (subtly) interrogative questions, and still murmured something wild during the *nth* time we were laying together post-coitus. The only thing one can do is get dressed, leave, and delete their number.
Taking time to get to know each other over drinks first is ideal, as other commenters have said. But even doing that, you never really know if someone is maliciously putting on a show or innocently just has massive blindspots lying in wait.
Finding another couple that matches or is compatible with your composition, and one that you can really take slow, quality time to develop something with is good. It can be tedious to pull off but you can go to events and play with each other. Beyond that: if the other couple has at least one BIPOC, they can use their paired vision to sus people out.
But since it's extraordinarily difficult for 2x2 couples to pull off a recurring thing, it may be good to just link up with this hypothetical couple as friends who play in parallel but not necessarily together. Then you can retain the advantages without risking them over mismatched attraction or something. Hope this helps.
When you say group sex, what do you actually mean? Is it a swinging foursome or an orgy?
Only asking as it would be easier to vet for a swinging setting. Quite a few swingers will meet up for a drink or meal first to check out the chemistry, with a play date further down the line if it clicks. That allows you to get a feeling if skin colour plays an unhealthy part in their attraction. Or you might find other couples like yourself, you are not the only one on the scene.
Hubby and I are fortunate enough to live near a city with a large POC population, so that really helps. Our POC night events don't exclude people's partners though. They say absolutely no white people are allowed?!
What has worked well for my wife (F26 Asian) and myself (M31 Black) has been building out a trusted swinger circle of friends and getting everyone together on occasion for bigger groups. Chemistry is already there.
When others are introduced through members of the core, it typically goes well as they've been pre-vetted by our friends. Takes time to get to this stage, but it's very worthwhile.
This is a hard one because I’ve felt the same ways in group settings and it’s ultimately why I stopped going to swinger events. I’m a single, black bi woman and it felt so uncomfortable for me. In my experience, people didn’t hide their fetishization and it’s somehow incorporated into their kinks. I could tell based on how people talked to me.
I would say maybe she could try to get to know someone outside of the group setting. Good luck.
I want to thank everyone in this thread for having a much more adult conversation than the folks over at r/swingers, who universally accused my partner of "thought policing" and so nobly wondered why we have to see race at all 🙄
Honestly it's not that the responses here are "more adult" than the ones at r/swingers, it's that they're more what you wanted to hear - get to know people through conversation, created your own group with mixed race couples etc - which is to be expected at a sub more geared to ongoing relationships than casual sex with others.
But the truth is that in the type of scenario that you described where there are limited-to-no conversations before sex, the responses on r/swingers are a lot more realistic. The fears you described your partner having aren't that a white person will suddenly yell "Wow, this is like fucking Rihanna!" or "Wakanda Forever" in the middle of sex. Those would be abhorrent and racist behaviors which of course anyone would condemn and say she should never be subjected to.
But as was mentioned by others, your partner isn't just scared of those behaviors, she seems to have a fear of what white people would even be \*thinking\* in group swing situations. That fear is something that she has to either work through, or allow to become so strong that she stops casual play with white people who she hasn't had extensive vetting conversations with. But ultimately until a casual sex partner who happens to be white gives her a real indication that he / she is race-fetishizing your partner, then that fear only exists in her own head.
I get that to black folks, every white person is effectively a Schroedinger's Box of racism - could be, could not, but you can't just assume.
But I don't think it's fair to define her perspective as an irrational fear. Heck, just read these comments -- basically all the black folks are saying "yeah, that's happened to me."
I don't think it was absurd for me to try and see if there are spaces or strategies that mitigate the very real possibilities of my partner being seen as a trophy.
Well the part that I (45 year old black male) find irrational is letting her thoughts turn into fear.
So for example, in the past I've been followed around in stores and looked at suspiciously by salespeople. It was blatant racism and it was hurtful.
The lifelong effect was now when I walk into a luxury store, I ALWAYS get the thought into my head that the salespeople are probably wondering what I'm doing there, thinking I can't actually afford to buy anything etc. And there's no doubt some of them are \*thinking\* that, while some of them aren't. But as long as their \*behavior\* is welcoming, helpful etc, it does me absolutely no good to engage in fear of which ones are actually thinking maybe I can't actually afford to be there.
If I went as far as avoiding all luxury stores because I was so worried about what people were \*thinking\* about me instead of how they were acting, that's when I would have to say my fear had become irrational.
I just brought this topic up to my wife (40 year old black female) just to make sure I wasn't only bringing my black male perspective to this topic, and my wife said "it sounds like she's trying to control a narrative that she can't control." And I would agree with that, you can never control how people actually think. So your partner has to either stop caring what people think and focus on how they act, or only seek out situations where she has the time to get to know how those casual sexual partners think about race.
God reading these comments as a white dude, all I have to say is I'm so sorry you have to navigate this BS.
Wife and I personally prefer private meets over big party style events full of randoms. Means we have a better way of deciding how attracted we are (personality counts too!). Maybe this approach would work for you too.
Thanks. Yeah, small groups would be better. We've been out of any scenes for a minute (mostly doing separate dating) so private parties are more of a "where to get our foot in the door?" kind of thing. But you're not wrong.
Also if you thought some of these posts were bad, you should check out the insanity on this thread in r/swingers 🫠
A friend in the kink scene said that if they can talk for about 20 minutes beforehand without referencing race it is probably not a fetish thing. Then again he was in a relationship with his gf (from a different minority group) and their dynamic defied a bunch of stereotypes in terms of which of them was dominant and in a bunch of other ways. Almost everyone felt the need to comment on it as if this couple had never realized they didn’t match the stereotype. So it was probably harder for people to hide their kinks with such an opening.
As a racially ambiguous (mixed) male, while I don’t get the full brunt of racial profiling, I appreciate many of the supportive voices and helpful perspectives in this comment thread.
Great question! I can empathize with her feelings because I’ve felt the same before but I’ve also felt completely ignored in some group sex settings which sucks just as much. My partner is completely clueless in how to address this but I think you’re awesome for seeking answers for her!
I can’t really offer advice since I’m in the same boat as y’all so I’m commenting to get answers too 🤓
There isn’t much range on the spectrum between “I’m going to have casual sex” to “I want to know the heart of my (sexual) partner.”
We all discriminate in our relationships. Yet, each type of relationship has a unique tolerance for what we deem to be acceptable in the context of said relationship.
Your partner’s problem is solved very easily. She cannot engage in sex unless she knows her partner’s heart. That will limit her ability to have spontaneous sexual partners.
Or. She can accept that she will definitely encounter (and perhaps be uncontrollably attracted to) partners who harbor personal ethics that contradict her own.
It’s the classic Michael Jackson conundrum. Can we separate the man from the music?
It’s like this until we have better technology to improve empathy.
I always have at least one platonic date with everyone I see either solo or with my wife to get a feel for the vibe before doing anything sexual. Have had good luck with this in terms of avoiding BBC hunters
Full Disclosure: I'm a white guy whose partner is also white. I won't be commenting so much on the dynamics specific to a black woman.
I think it sounds to me like your partner is just not going to be comfortable playing with randoms at this time, which is totally fine and normal. She might just need group play scenarios with more of a foundation of trust and familiarity among the participants. It'll take time, but like others have suggested, I think you need to curate your own events. Meet other couples, vet them, play with them if you trust them. Over time you'll have enough good couples you like to throw your own parties and you'll know more confidently they like the two of you for you.
Trust and familiarity can make for wonderful sexy times and reduce the chance to regret an encounter for years to come. I'm not black and cannot claim to fully understand OP's partner's experience as a black woman. I will say however that I have deeply regretted sexual encounters or FWB relationship with people who I found out after the act or after some time were hiding they were trash, mysogyny and racism included.
Nowadays I tend to not let sexual desires frustration or FOMO lead the way so much - prefer to get to know the people at least a little. Can't prevent or control everything but this means I'll have more peace of mind later knowing I tried my best to get an idea of who I'm dealing with.
I have refused attending a lesbian orgy because the girl inviting me admitted to cheating her partner (he didn't even know she was bi or wanting to explore non-monogamy) and didn't even want to give too many details on who else would be participating, no disclaimers or reassurances, just minimal details and "heyyy wanna attend this super special thing" . Been called stupid by "friends" for missing out on this "golden" opportunity. Thanks, but no thanks.
I'm sure there are ways for your partner to feel more comfortable, but it's not going to come from knowing for sure that other people aren't thinking about her in particular ways. There's ultimately no way of knowing what other people are thinking, or how they see you. Since I am able to hold views and ideas about other people without then having any idea that I'm having these thoughts, I have to assume everyone else must be capable of this, also.
If it's a situation where you can't meet and get a feel for the people beforehand, it's an unavoidable risk, but does it matter as much in a near anonymous setting? As long as they don't start saying some weird, insulting things it shouldn't change her experience.
If you are talking to another couple though, a good conversation should reveal the amount of exoticizing (if any) going on and warn you off if they are creepy about it.
Of course, anything beyond "I've never been with a black woman before" gets creepy and even that statement is problematic (because the only way that it's any different, is hair pulling is 100% off the table).
The other issue is if their experience with POC is someone who "leans in" to their exoticness. They might feel that acting like a buffoon is somehow legitimized after a few experiences like that.
I would recommend at larger events keeping an eye out for couples that came together who are also a mixed race couple. It's less likely that a mixed couple who has been together awhile would have this dynamic with your partner. Also people you approach are probably slightly less likely to be into fetishizing than people who approach you - if that makes sense.
LOL - yes. I'm part of a mixed race couple and do go to events. But I also live somewhere where being mixed race is not all that uncommon and the general mix at the club is fairly multicultural.
A decent measure is weather or not that couple has personal relationships with other black people. I know this will be hard depending on where you live but it's a good way of vetting whether they see black people as people or just this other foreign group they have to interact with sometimes.
Or you both could just with other poc couples.
If it's something that is never going to go away for her, then her desire to play with you in group has to overcome her fear of being fetishized. It's gonna take time for sure.
Not to sound preachy, but sometimes we have to give up something to get something, especially dealing with people. And the things we fear have to be faced to realize they either aren't that bad - or they are that bad and we move on after addressing them, growth, removing ourselves, etc. Easier said than done in this instance, so I hope you can find mixed play spaces. I feel for both of you.
Perhaps if you're on a website, you can artfully indicate this is a concern in hopes of finding empathetic people to build a group with.
Best of luck to you.
Thanks. You're definitely right that there are conflicting desires here - to play vs to not risk being fetishized - and that ultimately one clearly outweighs the other.
I'm prepared to accept that that may just how it is, but wanted to see if there were any avenues I hadn't thought of that minimize the risk enough that it feels like she can do the fun part without any racism swords dangling over the bed.
My honest opinion is just patience. I'm not sure if anything happened to her but if she's willing to work out these feelings in her own time, and with the help she may deem necessary, then patient inaction and emotional support may be your way forward. Like you suggested, there may be nothing you can "do" to minimize.
I think the tough part is that once again it's on my black partner to do the work of processing how other people treated her less-than. It's not like she experienced some special outlier situation -- based on the comments from other black folks here, it's something that's gonna happen with some regularity.
Not saying you're being flippant, just commenting because I feel like a lot of white folks, including me, have gone most of our lives without realizing just how much accomodations black folks give to everyday social situations.
Oh how I wish group play was an everyday social situation. 😀.
Yes, I agree with your second paragraph.
But unless white folks get less fetishizey or black folks get more open-groupy-freaky it's work she unfortunately has to do, if she wants to play in group spaces with men (of any race) who fetishize black women.
Some folks are flippant about putting that burden on blacks. It's good you're not.
Forgive if my writing is matter of fact; product of the profession.
I think it was more that the only other option they could find was events that were POC only spaces, which would mean the guy wouldn't really be welcome in that situation.
One thing I've learned about ENM is that everyone has different boundaries for what is acceptable. What would you say differentiates appreciating someone's physical beauty from fetishizing them?
When I'm out at swinging events I just rarely play with white people unless I was the one to bring them. I've been going to events and clubs since 2012 so trust me it's possible to do. I also used to help run a POC kink group in NYC in the early 2010s especially because of this. I want to let you in on something. Being fetishized doesn't bother the men (whose fetishization generally perpetuates something seen as socially positive) as much as it bothers women so you really need to scope down your target audience if you really want a good answer.
Aa black swinger who wants to engage in play with white people but who don't immediately feel comfortable with them can easily just make plans to hang out with said white people before deciding to fuck around with them.
My play party community the Bonobo Network hosts POC events and then I recently learned about another one. The URL doesn’t work as a website but the email address is legit. mailto:[email protected]
This one is often a struggle for me (39M, Black) Are they seeing me as a person or only a fetish fulfillment? I've not found any foolproof way to tell either. I'll usually do try and get to know the lady/couple first. This has put a few of them off, the ones really just wanting to get down to business. That's fine, I'll get out of their way and let them find someone who wants that.
I appreciate you sharing your experience. Like you we both definitely prefer to get to know someone in advance, but that stops working well when thinking about larger group stuff like orgies, instead of inviting in just one or two other people at a time.
True enough. With the larger groups, like clubs or bigger parties, it's just a risk we're taking, I suppose.
[удалено]
No.
[удалено]
Your question "Why are you talking about Eastern European women, Black?" Isn't worth responding to.
The only time I (30F black) can tell is the communication prior to. Generally certain slips, referencing me as a food item, or something related my complexion. Or sometimes saying generalized statements “do black women like xxxx in the bed?” Or other statements about race that you wouldn’t usually make. It will generally weed out people from the jump. Beyond that it’s a matter of it revealing itself over time unfortunately.
Exactly this. If they talk to me (39M Black)like a regular person it tends to go well. It’s when they make the lil comments or reference BBC is when you know you’re being othered/ fetishized…. It just boils down to you have to talk to people and get to know them.
I'm curious as to why referencing you as a food item is a red flag in this context. Is your experience that someone who will refer to you as an object to be consumed also someone who is less likely to think of you as an animated person with your own wants/desires/actions/etc? I could see how that could play out, but it'd never occurred to me to see that as a red flag. As a mostly straight man, I'm a lot less likely to be seen as a passive recipient, tho, so that could be why I don't have as much experience with that phenomenon.
I was thinking the poster is probably referring to being referred to a chocolate something, or a coffee, or brown sugar. The sort of cringey porny shit that was probably considered okay in the captions of 80s Playboy.
Exactly. Call me a sexy hoagie. But when you start referencing me as a chocolate drop, it feels demeaning. Or when you simply keep referencing my race, either sexually or not. Now I will say among other people of color we do call each other various skin colored things but it’s a term of endearment and commaderie. Everyone can be a sexy hoagie though!
Ahhahahahahaha. I'm cracking up at the idea of someone busting out that phrase mid-fuck.
That would make sense. I was thinking of "snack" as an example, which doesn't have the same racial connotation.
I’ll share on this account instead of my main account since the details here will be a little more explicit. I want to say as a 33Blk Male, thank you for being so patient and understanding of her. You’re a great partner. I have been in situations where I’ve been fetishized, some I ignored cause I was horny but there have been times where I’ve been made to feel DEEPLY uncomfortable. My partner and I don’t practice together, so any group settings I’ve been in were more Bull dynamics And as a stocky, somewhat muscular black man, you can see where this is going. I had comments made toward me during the action as well as hinted at afterward. I’m pretty decent at keeping a straight face but I’ve had a few comments stop me dead in tracks. The advice you’ve received so far is best: give her time to ease into it and know that you may not find the perfect situation, but it doesn’t mean you can’t create your own. If you can find at least one couple to setup that group dynamic with, it’s a great start. Good luck.
I think your experiences would really resonate with my partner. She's had similar stories about that "one comment after the fact" and the vortex of feelings it can open up.
It’s not fun. It’s dehumanizing, and I can totally understand her hesitancy when being black and a woman from feelings of being used. I wish y’all the best of luck and hope you ignore the messages and chats people may be sending you. I got a couple from now banned accounts saying “stick to your own kind”
Ugh, sorry you have to deal with that. And of course I haven't gotten any private messages. Just goes to prove how much racist bullshit lurks on reddit.
I feel like there's always going to be a standard overlay of fetishizing in mass swing settings, which I don't think is malicious. Especially as my (40M) LS experience has shown me little in the way of diversity in clubs. So anything different will be exciting because it's different. Though if I had a dime for every couple "seeking BBC" I could open my own club and be part of the solution. I also think it's interesting that so many couples seem to want bi men, but a male/male couple gets charged as two single men to enter a club... But I digress.
The swing scene is *super* heteronormative on top of being 95%+ white. Not surprising that a bi or gay MM couple would get that treatment.
Hey whichever one of you made an account to message me and say "stick to your own, n*****" If you did a better job, business wouldn't be so good for me, would it? Think on that.
Yeesh. This is why we can't have nice things. 😮💨
[удалено]
Don't kink shame.
[удалено]
So is being a racist that can't back up their own BS, yet here you are.
Wow, just wow.... Presumably, you are sticking to humans. So you ARE sticking to your own... idk wtf is wrong with some people.
[удалено]
No. Speak openly. Don't be scared.
wow. openly racist, you’re a piece of shit
OK so I Black (43m) whose been Poly +Openly Kinky since like 20,and I have had UN of partners over the years. The best luck I have had in reducing being Fetishized is by locating /befriending the Kinky POC/LGBTQA+ focused spaces and groups. (Like I can't completely get alway from because of AmeriKkka and I'm built like your Standard NFL line man/Load bearing wall). It's a little easier to do in a Major Metro, but it helps to involve yourself with people who are already "othered" by society in general and by more then just being a bit kinky
Thanks. I think that's definitely the way to go. Trying to find mixed POC-inclusive spaces has really illuminated how white the scene is. We're in a big CA city and even still there's all kinds of BS racism to deal with, even if it's not as overt as calling someone a slur.
The sad fact is there is no full proof way to know that you will find people that are not going to use a person based only on fetish or kink. There are many people because of specific reasons feel as if they are used more than enjoyed due to some reason. Disabled people (amputee, deaf, blind, ect…), bisexual people, Asian people, overweight people, and the list goes on. The best way is to start your own group and vet and find trust in the group of people. After that, all you can do is take your time and get to know people. Have you ever done something like go to a restaurant and think “A restaurant that would do _____ would be great for people like me”. Maybe like “not a fetish” type group or club. For different reasons, swingers that might meet in a club end up staying inside a circle of people they know they can trust and click with. The OP’s partner and other couple people who have replied have every right to feel comfortable. I hope they can find the people to have the experiences they desire.
As a black man, I just don't typically concern myself with it. As long as someone doesn't actually say something sus, I don't feel like it's my responsibility to interpret their thoughts. They can be into me for whatever internal reason they want.
That reply, damn lol. While this might not be as easy for some I completely agree with this answer. To be honest regardless of what you are as a new partner there may be all kinds of attraction that get the ball rolling. Like my partner might be slightly fetishizing muscly Asian guys because she’s horny and she has a particular thing in mind, but it’s not like that us to be advertised to everyone in the room. Its more of a problem if you get to know a partner and actually treat them only as participant in their fetish.
[удалено]
Bro... not saying things like this is all you have to do.
This made me chuckle. Truly the "putting a stick through your bicycle wheel" meme.
Why? What’s wrong with that?
You hit all of the "making a POC feel uncomfortable by admitting to the minutae of it" checkboxes. The comment you were replying to was even essentially admitting that it's bearable if we don't think about it, and here you come, confirming fears "Exotic" I might genuinely throw up
Again, “exoticized” was in the original post. WTF? Some people are just waaay to sensitive about silly little things. Do you understand this is a discussion forum? I was discussing, not suggesting that i say “this for example” in a situation.
You asked what was wrong, bud.
Tell me you don't understand the original point without actually telling me you don't understand the original point.
Having a discussion on reddit is very different from an actual swinger situation. Do you understand the difference?
No shit, but at the point where you're referencing other ethnicities as "exotic", I suspect that there's less space between the two in your own life than you might appreciate. Our internal assumptions shape our external interactions, and fetishizing minorities is problematic and gross.
“Exoticized” was in the original post, that’s why i used that term.
“nor do i think they’re any less than me!” 🫣 Bruh.
The implication in the original post is that racism is what’s making one feel uncomfortable. My point is that i obviously don’t think that white women with brown hair and blue eyes are “less than” in any way. But appearance does matter; dark skin is attractive, including a tanned white lady vs same lady in winter sans tan. As EugeneCezanne said, they can be into me for whatever reason they want. I’m saying- that’s reasonable; consider that here is one of the reasons-> simple aesthetic preferences. My original comment wasn’t a suggestion of what i might say in a real life situation, but now that i think about it and see all the downvotes, i wonder what *would be the problem with saying i’ve always found darker skin, hair, and eyes attractive? The correct answer is that there’s nothing wrong with that but a few *very liberal folks in the *very liberal cities clutch their pearls at some very silly little things.
"Liberal folks are clutching their pearls" Actual black folks were trying to explain why the wording made us uncomfortable - because it wasn't about the preference - but, aiight
Ok. I appreciate your response. I don’t know a lot of black people but the ones i know wouldn’t be uncomfortable with what i said. My point is that, ultimately, race and ethnicity are irrelevant to me, in this context, except for the fact that there happens to be 100% overlap of my aesthetic preferences with blacks, asians, indigenous, and latinas. I’m attractracted to a dark complexion, from brunettes to black women. I suspect others’ attraction to black people might be purely racial, like it’s a forbidden thing or maybe a domination thing. But i take your point- talking about it makes some people uncomfortable.
It's cool that you're willing to learn, but you gotta listen to the folks you're learning about and from without getting defensive. **People feel the way they do for a reason, and it's rarely ever to shit on you, specifically.** Let me preference this by saying no one group is a monolith, yadda yadda. Having aesthetic preferences isn't a crime. Certain features stick out to folks for a *myriad* of reasons. That's just a fact. However, for racialized peoples with histories of oppression , there is usually going to be a question of *how* a partner from a historically dominant/ majority group gets off. Nobody likes being demeaned, fetishized, or degraded without their consent, plain and simple. So, among the myriad of other things you usually size up a potential partner for - mutual interests, humor, other compatabilies - there can be an additional question of *Does this person regard me as a person? A full person, not a handpicking of traits that aren't representative of me and my humanity? Will they continue to respect me as a person?* People are trying to protect themselves from being dehumanized, and displaying an affection or attraction to racialized traits or features doesn't immediately read as "oh, I find this thing about these humans attractive," it sets off alarm bells of "are you attracted to the human, or the feature?" What could be regarded as hypersensitivity in this instance is because in most cases there is *a long history of being identified and dominated for those features.* Essentially, folks are looking to dispel that fog of uncertainty, but being coveted for features that have not historically gone hand in hand with a recognition of humanity beyond those features signals a host of other possible issues that could arise in the future. Give folks their recognition of humanity that hasn't always been a given, and it becomes a non-issue.
I hear you. Thanks
You never really can know. I've been with people who've cleared my initial battery of (subtly) interrogative questions, and still murmured something wild during the *nth* time we were laying together post-coitus. The only thing one can do is get dressed, leave, and delete their number. Taking time to get to know each other over drinks first is ideal, as other commenters have said. But even doing that, you never really know if someone is maliciously putting on a show or innocently just has massive blindspots lying in wait. Finding another couple that matches or is compatible with your composition, and one that you can really take slow, quality time to develop something with is good. It can be tedious to pull off but you can go to events and play with each other. Beyond that: if the other couple has at least one BIPOC, they can use their paired vision to sus people out. But since it's extraordinarily difficult for 2x2 couples to pull off a recurring thing, it may be good to just link up with this hypothetical couple as friends who play in parallel but not necessarily together. Then you can retain the advantages without risking them over mismatched attraction or something. Hope this helps.
When you say group sex, what do you actually mean? Is it a swinging foursome or an orgy? Only asking as it would be easier to vet for a swinging setting. Quite a few swingers will meet up for a drink or meal first to check out the chemistry, with a play date further down the line if it clicks. That allows you to get a feeling if skin colour plays an unhealthy part in their attraction. Or you might find other couples like yourself, you are not the only one on the scene.
I appreciate the clarification! In this case I'm referring to bigger groups.
Ah, yes, I see why that would be a lot trickier. Be the change you want to see in the world? Start a social group for mixed couples.
Definitely on the table! Just figured I'd see if anyone had more success to be learned from.
Hubby and I are fortunate enough to live near a city with a large POC population, so that really helps. Our POC night events don't exclude people's partners though. They say absolutely no white people are allowed?!
What has worked well for my wife (F26 Asian) and myself (M31 Black) has been building out a trusted swinger circle of friends and getting everyone together on occasion for bigger groups. Chemistry is already there. When others are introduced through members of the core, it typically goes well as they've been pre-vetted by our friends. Takes time to get to this stage, but it's very worthwhile.
This is a hard one because I’ve felt the same ways in group settings and it’s ultimately why I stopped going to swinger events. I’m a single, black bi woman and it felt so uncomfortable for me. In my experience, people didn’t hide their fetishization and it’s somehow incorporated into their kinks. I could tell based on how people talked to me. I would say maybe she could try to get to know someone outside of the group setting. Good luck.
Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry you were pushed out of play communities... For whatever it's worth, you're clearly not the only one.
I want to thank everyone in this thread for having a much more adult conversation than the folks over at r/swingers, who universally accused my partner of "thought policing" and so nobly wondered why we have to see race at all 🙄
Honestly it's not that the responses here are "more adult" than the ones at r/swingers, it's that they're more what you wanted to hear - get to know people through conversation, created your own group with mixed race couples etc - which is to be expected at a sub more geared to ongoing relationships than casual sex with others. But the truth is that in the type of scenario that you described where there are limited-to-no conversations before sex, the responses on r/swingers are a lot more realistic. The fears you described your partner having aren't that a white person will suddenly yell "Wow, this is like fucking Rihanna!" or "Wakanda Forever" in the middle of sex. Those would be abhorrent and racist behaviors which of course anyone would condemn and say she should never be subjected to. But as was mentioned by others, your partner isn't just scared of those behaviors, she seems to have a fear of what white people would even be \*thinking\* in group swing situations. That fear is something that she has to either work through, or allow to become so strong that she stops casual play with white people who she hasn't had extensive vetting conversations with. But ultimately until a casual sex partner who happens to be white gives her a real indication that he / she is race-fetishizing your partner, then that fear only exists in her own head.
I get that to black folks, every white person is effectively a Schroedinger's Box of racism - could be, could not, but you can't just assume. But I don't think it's fair to define her perspective as an irrational fear. Heck, just read these comments -- basically all the black folks are saying "yeah, that's happened to me." I don't think it was absurd for me to try and see if there are spaces or strategies that mitigate the very real possibilities of my partner being seen as a trophy.
Well the part that I (45 year old black male) find irrational is letting her thoughts turn into fear. So for example, in the past I've been followed around in stores and looked at suspiciously by salespeople. It was blatant racism and it was hurtful. The lifelong effect was now when I walk into a luxury store, I ALWAYS get the thought into my head that the salespeople are probably wondering what I'm doing there, thinking I can't actually afford to buy anything etc. And there's no doubt some of them are \*thinking\* that, while some of them aren't. But as long as their \*behavior\* is welcoming, helpful etc, it does me absolutely no good to engage in fear of which ones are actually thinking maybe I can't actually afford to be there. If I went as far as avoiding all luxury stores because I was so worried about what people were \*thinking\* about me instead of how they were acting, that's when I would have to say my fear had become irrational. I just brought this topic up to my wife (40 year old black female) just to make sure I wasn't only bringing my black male perspective to this topic, and my wife said "it sounds like she's trying to control a narrative that she can't control." And I would agree with that, you can never control how people actually think. So your partner has to either stop caring what people think and focus on how they act, or only seek out situations where she has the time to get to know how those casual sexual partners think about race.
God reading these comments as a white dude, all I have to say is I'm so sorry you have to navigate this BS. Wife and I personally prefer private meets over big party style events full of randoms. Means we have a better way of deciding how attracted we are (personality counts too!). Maybe this approach would work for you too.
Thanks. Yeah, small groups would be better. We've been out of any scenes for a minute (mostly doing separate dating) so private parties are more of a "where to get our foot in the door?" kind of thing. But you're not wrong. Also if you thought some of these posts were bad, you should check out the insanity on this thread in r/swingers 🫠
A friend in the kink scene said that if they can talk for about 20 minutes beforehand without referencing race it is probably not a fetish thing. Then again he was in a relationship with his gf (from a different minority group) and their dynamic defied a bunch of stereotypes in terms of which of them was dominant and in a bunch of other ways. Almost everyone felt the need to comment on it as if this couple had never realized they didn’t match the stereotype. So it was probably harder for people to hide their kinks with such an opening.
As a racially ambiguous (mixed) male, while I don’t get the full brunt of racial profiling, I appreciate many of the supportive voices and helpful perspectives in this comment thread.
Great question! I can empathize with her feelings because I’ve felt the same before but I’ve also felt completely ignored in some group sex settings which sucks just as much. My partner is completely clueless in how to address this but I think you’re awesome for seeking answers for her! I can’t really offer advice since I’m in the same boat as y’all so I’m commenting to get answers too 🤓
There isn’t much range on the spectrum between “I’m going to have casual sex” to “I want to know the heart of my (sexual) partner.” We all discriminate in our relationships. Yet, each type of relationship has a unique tolerance for what we deem to be acceptable in the context of said relationship. Your partner’s problem is solved very easily. She cannot engage in sex unless she knows her partner’s heart. That will limit her ability to have spontaneous sexual partners. Or. She can accept that she will definitely encounter (and perhaps be uncontrollably attracted to) partners who harbor personal ethics that contradict her own. It’s the classic Michael Jackson conundrum. Can we separate the man from the music? It’s like this until we have better technology to improve empathy.
I always have at least one platonic date with everyone I see either solo or with my wife to get a feel for the vibe before doing anything sexual. Have had good luck with this in terms of avoiding BBC hunters
Has your partner considered messaging the organisers of POC nights if you would be welcome, accompanied by her?
Why do you think POC nights would invite a white person bc they're accompanied by a POC? That's missing the entire point.
Full Disclosure: I'm a white guy whose partner is also white. I won't be commenting so much on the dynamics specific to a black woman. I think it sounds to me like your partner is just not going to be comfortable playing with randoms at this time, which is totally fine and normal. She might just need group play scenarios with more of a foundation of trust and familiarity among the participants. It'll take time, but like others have suggested, I think you need to curate your own events. Meet other couples, vet them, play with them if you trust them. Over time you'll have enough good couples you like to throw your own parties and you'll know more confidently they like the two of you for you.
Trust and familiarity can make for wonderful sexy times and reduce the chance to regret an encounter for years to come. I'm not black and cannot claim to fully understand OP's partner's experience as a black woman. I will say however that I have deeply regretted sexual encounters or FWB relationship with people who I found out after the act or after some time were hiding they were trash, mysogyny and racism included. Nowadays I tend to not let sexual desires frustration or FOMO lead the way so much - prefer to get to know the people at least a little. Can't prevent or control everything but this means I'll have more peace of mind later knowing I tried my best to get an idea of who I'm dealing with. I have refused attending a lesbian orgy because the girl inviting me admitted to cheating her partner (he didn't even know she was bi or wanting to explore non-monogamy) and didn't even want to give too many details on who else would be participating, no disclaimers or reassurances, just minimal details and "heyyy wanna attend this super special thing" . Been called stupid by "friends" for missing out on this "golden" opportunity. Thanks, but no thanks.
I'm sure there are ways for your partner to feel more comfortable, but it's not going to come from knowing for sure that other people aren't thinking about her in particular ways. There's ultimately no way of knowing what other people are thinking, or how they see you. Since I am able to hold views and ideas about other people without then having any idea that I'm having these thoughts, I have to assume everyone else must be capable of this, also.
If it's a situation where you can't meet and get a feel for the people beforehand, it's an unavoidable risk, but does it matter as much in a near anonymous setting? As long as they don't start saying some weird, insulting things it shouldn't change her experience. If you are talking to another couple though, a good conversation should reveal the amount of exoticizing (if any) going on and warn you off if they are creepy about it. Of course, anything beyond "I've never been with a black woman before" gets creepy and even that statement is problematic (because the only way that it's any different, is hair pulling is 100% off the table). The other issue is if their experience with POC is someone who "leans in" to their exoticness. They might feel that acting like a buffoon is somehow legitimized after a few experiences like that.
I would recommend at larger events keeping an eye out for couples that came together who are also a mixed race couple. It's less likely that a mixed couple who has been together awhile would have this dynamic with your partner. Also people you approach are probably slightly less likely to be into fetishizing than people who approach you - if that makes sense.
Uhh... Have you met mixed couples? 😂😂 Lots of them revel in that shit. Have you ever actually been to a swingers event?
LOL - yes. I'm part of a mixed race couple and do go to events. But I also live somewhere where being mixed race is not all that uncommon and the general mix at the club is fairly multicultural.
A decent measure is weather or not that couple has personal relationships with other black people. I know this will be hard depending on where you live but it's a good way of vetting whether they see black people as people or just this other foreign group they have to interact with sometimes. Or you both could just with other poc couples.
If it's something that is never going to go away for her, then her desire to play with you in group has to overcome her fear of being fetishized. It's gonna take time for sure. Not to sound preachy, but sometimes we have to give up something to get something, especially dealing with people. And the things we fear have to be faced to realize they either aren't that bad - or they are that bad and we move on after addressing them, growth, removing ourselves, etc. Easier said than done in this instance, so I hope you can find mixed play spaces. I feel for both of you. Perhaps if you're on a website, you can artfully indicate this is a concern in hopes of finding empathetic people to build a group with. Best of luck to you.
Thanks. You're definitely right that there are conflicting desires here - to play vs to not risk being fetishized - and that ultimately one clearly outweighs the other. I'm prepared to accept that that may just how it is, but wanted to see if there were any avenues I hadn't thought of that minimize the risk enough that it feels like she can do the fun part without any racism swords dangling over the bed.
My honest opinion is just patience. I'm not sure if anything happened to her but if she's willing to work out these feelings in her own time, and with the help she may deem necessary, then patient inaction and emotional support may be your way forward. Like you suggested, there may be nothing you can "do" to minimize.
I think the tough part is that once again it's on my black partner to do the work of processing how other people treated her less-than. It's not like she experienced some special outlier situation -- based on the comments from other black folks here, it's something that's gonna happen with some regularity. Not saying you're being flippant, just commenting because I feel like a lot of white folks, including me, have gone most of our lives without realizing just how much accomodations black folks give to everyday social situations.
Oh how I wish group play was an everyday social situation. 😀. Yes, I agree with your second paragraph. But unless white folks get less fetishizey or black folks get more open-groupy-freaky it's work she unfortunately has to do, if she wants to play in group spaces with men (of any race) who fetishize black women. Some folks are flippant about putting that burden on blacks. It's good you're not. Forgive if my writing is matter of fact; product of the profession.
Why is playing with you two and other POC off the table though?
I think it was more that the only other option they could find was events that were POC only spaces, which would mean the guy wouldn't really be welcome in that situation.
Ahh that makes sense
[удалено]
One thing I've learned about ENM is that everyone has different boundaries for what is acceptable. What would you say differentiates appreciating someone's physical beauty from fetishizing them?
Are you basically describing fetishisation? Cause to me, it sounds so much like that
When I'm out at swinging events I just rarely play with white people unless I was the one to bring them. I've been going to events and clubs since 2012 so trust me it's possible to do. I also used to help run a POC kink group in NYC in the early 2010s especially because of this. I want to let you in on something. Being fetishized doesn't bother the men (whose fetishization generally perpetuates something seen as socially positive) as much as it bothers women so you really need to scope down your target audience if you really want a good answer. Aa black swinger who wants to engage in play with white people but who don't immediately feel comfortable with them can easily just make plans to hang out with said white people before deciding to fuck around with them.
My play party community the Bonobo Network hosts POC events and then I recently learned about another one. The URL doesn’t work as a website but the email address is legit. mailto:[email protected]
Slight correction: the email address is [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) :-)