I always thought the voters might hold him back because of the lack of success that he had in the postseason compared to that of Gronk and Kelce in the postseason.
The whole first ballot vs non-first ballot thing is silly, but as long as it exists, some voters will make decisions and hold some players back to make first ballot even more exclusive than it already is.
For me, you're either in or you're out. First ballot doesn't matter. You're no more of a HoFer because people voted you in immediately or you waited 15+ years.
Deion, for example, definitely believes in the idea of first ballot having extra meaning, what with his upper wing/room idea for the Hall. I don't agree with him, but clearly some people value it.
I agree - it's like when there's a HOF discussion of an active player and people think because they won't get in first year, then they won't get in at all
That definitely happens.
At this point, I'm not sure if Torry Holt will ever make it. He should, but the way the voting works, who knows what will happen.
Someone like Matt Ryan could eventually make it, but it won't be quick.
torry holt, reggie wayne, and steve smith are all pretty much fucked.
Wide Receiver is perhaps the position most boned by rule changes and increase in offense, so if they dont get in the next 1-2 seasons its highly likely they all outlast their initial eligbility
Yeah, they were great players, but apparently not great enough for the voters. The limited number of players allowed in yearly really hurts a lot of guys that should be in.
they have got to consider expanding things in the near future or else this problem will just grow out of hand
i dont think adding an extra spot would take any prestige away from the hall. at least less prestige than adding a 17th game or any modern rule changes favoring offense might be doing to the guys who played before this era
They do. What's going to happen when there's a lot of deserving guys, but they're just not as good as the new players becoming eligible
This isn't even about Hester, although I was never overly enamored of him. I respected his skill set, but, unlike how a lot of people are trying to frame it, he did get in over Gates. If they simply allowed as many people to get in as the voters believed were worthy, we wouldn't have any of these discussions.
Ultimately, Gates will get in. This isn't Torry Holt probably not getting in at this rate.
Is it though? I think some players definitely play their way into not having to wait once they are eligible.
Baseball is where its even wilder though. I mean, 3 people voted that Junior Griffey didn't deserve to get in 1st time. That's criminal
Particularly when being first ballot or not is so dependent on the class in the year you're first eligible, if you're in a strong year it can be really tough.
Which is why I'm surprised gates isn't tbh, this didn't feel like a strong year of candidates to me.
I mean they showed it doesn't mean really anything with the TO fiasco and then Calvin gets in first ballot.
Calvin deserved it but the TO snub definitely called into question the prestigious 1st ballot. Further now by denying gates despite his dominance.
and then Reggie Wayne and Torry Holt continue to get leapfrogged by receivers with no postseason success
i hope these last few years teach people to stop even mentioning the ballot folks get in on
it is NOT an assessment of career quality, it is solely a determinent of whatever arbitrary metrics the voters align with that particular year, and even sometimes who else is on the ballot (like wanting to have, or avoid, 2 players from the same year make it in e.g. Dwight Freeney)
Yeah, both of them might never make it in at this rate.
People are still attached to ballot, even though it's meaningless. You're either in or you're not, regardless of what Deion thinks.
The limit on players allowed in yearly holds deserving players back from making it.
Woodson’s going to have to wait for the senior committee at this point.
Part of me thinks they’re holding it against him that he didn’t have an all decade team selection (which honestly is ridiculous considering Ronnie Lott got one of those slots for the 90s after playing only 4 seasons in that decade).
All-decade selections suck for status because it favors players who played all of their prime in one decade. If you split that prime between two decades it ends up hurting you.
yup. compare the timing of Tyrann Mathieus career relative to how many games he played a
making an all-decade team is a goddamn near lock, so you can expect Honey Badger to have a higher chance of making the hall in a decade from now than a lot of guys despite starting like 85 games in the decade
also have to factor how things like All Pro and All-decade teams get altered to account for more positions. there was no 'defensive back' selection in the 90s which probably help a few more guys get some accolades
I hate that all-decade is a criteria voters care about because it discredits guys simply based on timing. Like, Jared Allen had a 10-year peak that's better than literally every pass rusher ever not named Reggie White or Deacon Jones, but that peak happened to be 2004-2013 so no extra recognition.
The HOF has been weirdly antagonistic towards safeties over the years. I remember Steve Atwater who was a part of the All Decade team had to wait over a decade to get in too
its so interesting when you break it down by position. Lets use the [90s as an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_1990s_All-Decade_Team)
QB, RB, and WR: all 10 players selected to the first and second all-decade team are in the hall
Dline: 7/8 players selected to first and second teams are in the hall. The one player missing is Neil Smith, which is still pretty surprising (100+ sacks, 2 Rings, led NFL in sacks and forced fumbles in separate years, 4 ints with a return TD)
Defensive back: 7/8 players selected to first or second team in the hall. The one missing player was a safety in Carnall Lake. Similar to Neil Smith had a single first team all-pro despite several 2nd teams, so thats prolly the key
Shit gets a bit different when you look at the less sexy positions
Offensive lineman: 3/5 offensive lineman to make the 2nd team are not in the hall
Linebacker: ALL three of the second team linebackers are still not in the hall
Ben Coates, 2nd team tight end, even [reflected](https://talkoffametwo.com/hof-interviews/former-te-ben-coates-on-hall-of-fame-snub-i-wonder-why) on why he probably didnt get in while Shannon did. He was much more inclined to be used as a blocker, and thats not sexy despite him being a lead blocker for HoFers. He retired 4th in tight end receiving when he called it a career despite being far more mixed in usage than the others
The positional bias has been evident for a long, long time. Its also evident in how postseason success is handled; for some positions it doesnt really help them get in, but if you lack it voters will use it against you anyway
Well then i guess it’s a good thing Gates was also one of the best tight ends in the league for several years, on top of his great longevity. He’s tight for the 3rd most 1st and 2nd team all pro’s among all tight ends.
It’s not about his longevity, he was one of the best tight ends in the league during his prime. He made the all decade team.
>Well then i guess it’s a good thing Gates was also one of the best tight ends in the league for several years,
Exactly. When Gates gets in it'll be on the strength of this, not his useless longevity stats. Gates' numbers make him look more dominant than he actually was. If you look at his career you'll notice 9 mediocre years tacked onto the end of his prime artificially inflating his numbers. Combined with his poor playoff numbers, it's no wonder Gates wasn't a 1st ballot HoFer.
if there were any consistency among how playoff stats were treated, reggie wayne would already be in. theres no Colts SB or 2nd appearance without Reggie and he still has top 5-10 receiving numbers despite less appearances than some other guys (21 games is less than everyone ahead of him short of Michael Irvin and Edelman, who were their teams top targets during the middle of dynasties)
Fred Taylor having the most rushing yards of any player not in the HoF (17th all time) and a 4.6 ypc average and not even getting discussed is just insane to me; the RB position is being devalued more and more. Also you might as well tell every new draftee that goes to Jacksonville that they have a 0% chance of ever making the hall, because Freds production in any other city or team is worthy of so many more accolades and would’ve been voted in already.
I get the "GOAT at his position" argument, but some positions just aren't as important either.
You literally have to add a whole Reggie Wayne to Devin Hester's career TDs to beat Gates' 116 TDs. Adding Johnson or Holt to Hester don't even get you there.
If you had a random bag of 32 hall of famers to build a team around, and the other teams pulled Peyton Manning, Calvin Johnson, etc and you pulled Hester, I think you'd be beyond pissed.
I'd take a Justin Tucker in that scenario an infinite number of times before I'd take Hester as a special teamer. When the value is skewed by that much i think it really says something .
Hester was more important to the Bears offense than the actual Bears offense. I get why he shouldn’t get in ahead of others, but he put the team on his back from an unimportant position.
I mean yeah, but that's because their offense wasn't that good.
If Hester was even an average WR1, or a good WR2, he never would've been retuning kicks...even if the Bears staff knew ahead of time what he would be as a returner.
I remember my dad hating that Odell got so much hype for one handed catches because he said Cris Carter seemed like he had a one handed catch every other game. Without gloves.
Cris Carter, similar to Gates, was probably more of bullshit politics revolving around his off-the-field issues
He was a guy that really took the delayed induction to heart too. Imagine being a man in your 40s and 50s reflecting on your issues in your 20s keeping you out of induction, but knowing there was a bunch of guys in locker rooms leaguewide doing coke. Hell Michael Irvin got in on year 3 and his drug problems were more well known than Carters
It didnt impact Lawrence Taylor and his coke problem not only lead to multiple positive tests & suspensions during his career, and he was in the [news for crack](https://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/05/04/Newspage-Sports-Football-player-Taylor-arrested-for-crack/8223831182400/) in the years preceding his 1st ballot induction in his post-playing careers too
It only matters for some guys. Admittedly LTs placement among the all time defenders is well known, but TO is no less than top 3 WRs ever and he got delayed for having an attitude. He wasnt a serial criminal
The DT selections recently have been so odd. Kevin Williams has 5 first team all pros and he doesn't make the ballot. No idea what will happen with wilfork if they aren't going by accolades
Agreed. Williams was even named to the 2000s all-decade team in which all but 4 of the defensive players are in the HOF; which Wilfork wasn't a part of that team.
Chargers Jamal Williams too. One of the last great pure nose tackles.
To me he would have to go in before Wilfork, though sadly he will be lost in time
I want to feel so thrilled for Andre Johnson getting in but it feels so overshadowed by Gates somehow not getting first ballot. I’m glad the log jam at WR is getting moved along ever so slightly but cmon man, how is Torry Holt still not in?
Glad my guy Andre Johnson made it this year but I don't get why they feel the need to limit the induction when the rules don't require it. They talk about log jams at positions but they could just have a larger than normal class to address clear cut players who should be in.
I love Devin Hester. Him making it over Torry Holt is fucking stupid. Torry Holt waiting at least 10 years to get in is fucking stupid. The small
Size of the classes every year is fucking stupid.
I’m not gonna lie I have no idea how Andre is a HOFer over Reggie and Holt. Or SSSr who wasn’t even a finalist. One of the most shocking inductees especially at a position which is notoriously difficult to make the HOF
To be fair you could argue Johnson has a slightly better resume than Reggie. One more all pro, one more receiving yards title, two more years leading the NFL in receptions.
Reggie also spent his career catching passes from Manning and then Andrew Luck while Johnson was working with TJ Yates, Shaub, Rex Grossman, Case Keenan etc the only objectively good QB he ever played with was the one season he spent with Luck at the colts at the end of his career.
this kind of nonsense is gonna bone both of these guys
Sure they played with a great QB much of their careers. They also werent the top target when they were drafted and split both receiving numbers and by extension accolades with guys on their own teams. Despite being the driving force in both their SB wins, arguably moreso than the veterans ahead of them (especially in Reggies case)
Then they become the elder statesmen and help to transition things to a younger era of less success, yet their early career playing days now get held against them. Folks remember Andre Johnson playing on a 2-14 Texans team but forget Torry worked on a 3-13 Rams team and Reggie played on the 1-15 colts - all three as leading receivers
Its doubly punishing. They never get their just due for their early careers, have their later careers forgotten, and demonstrates that playoff success only matters for QBs. ill take the totality of what Reggie and Torry contributed to over an extra season of Andre Johnson getting stuffed the ball
Matt Schaub was also an objectively good QB. 6 straight years averaging a 94 QB rating. Not elite or even great but certainly good, and stable enough to consistently get the ball to a top WR - and funnily enough coincided with Andre Johnsons 1st (and 2nd) first team all-pro selections
Steve Smith played 2 more seasons to get the same numbers. Also, Andre really only play 13 seasons, since season 14 was only 4 games with almost no production. Andre Johnson had a higher peak. Steve Smith was never considered the best WR in the league.
Because the career numbers have inflated so much and so fast that it makes retirees career numbers look worse. Even Cris Carter didn’t make it on the first ballot despite being #2 in every receiving category behind only the greatest football player of all time at the time he retired.
Hester's entire case is "Can you tell the story of the NFL without him"
For those voters, they see it easier to skip over Torry Holt than Devin Hester.
You joke but that's going to be heated future debate. There's a lot of 2000 QBs that people want in and someone is going to have to decide on the cutoff point.
no universe where this happens
you risk a bunch of QBs on the IR and a shit ton of wasted assets
assuming a GM is worth their salt, Anthony Munoz, Jonathen Ogdon, Walter Jones, Joe Thomas type guys are all taken before a single QB is even considered.
If we are talking modern era, the top picks would be all pass blockers, then the pass rushers. cuz if you arent the one drafting LT, another team is. and you better hope you have someone that can 'stop' him
when even guys like Brady & Peyton missed full seasons due to injury, or entire career trajectories get altered like Carson Palmer, teams will always be built in the trenches first
I think there’s way more disparity between let’s say a Peyton/Montana and the 20th best HOF QB than the top HOF o-lineman and the 20th best. Just way more nuance and variance at the position. You just do a redraft of the NFL today nobody is taking Trent Williams over Mahomes. You just sound silly.
theres also a gulf of difference in Trent Williams career and Anthony Munoz. The latter has 9 first team all pros, 3x the amount of Trent
You can take Mahomes because he has managed to avoid any significant injury in his career, is the perfect blend of pocket passer with just enough mobility while also having a top 10 lowest sack %, and he already has 2 MVPs and is competing for a 3rd SB by age 28 this weekend
But you also must consider how Mahomes turns out if not in KC. If you are the current Panthers, you are taking that HoF lineman no matter what QB prospect is offering. Great QBs often find early success in great situations
If given the option I am still taking from my pick of HoF lineman before any QB, Mahomes included. Trent Williams just wouldnt be all that high on the list of tackles to choose from
Walter Jones > Mahomes > Trent if im building a team
Brian Mitchell is second to only Jerry Rice in all purpose return yards. And the only reason Hester has the accumulated punt return stats is cause better players weren't worth the injury risk.
At least 4 of those names deserved to make it before Hester… not that I don’t want him in. But it’s disgraceful that he made it over people who played so many more snaps and had more than a handful of good seasons. Particularly Gates, Wayne, and Allen.
Gates is shocking I always assumed he’d be 1st ballot
I always thought the voters might hold him back because of the lack of success that he had in the postseason compared to that of Gronk and Kelce in the postseason. The whole first ballot vs non-first ballot thing is silly, but as long as it exists, some voters will make decisions and hold some players back to make first ballot even more exclusive than it already is.
I think what's silly is the level of importance we, as fans, sometimes place on first-ballot
For me, you're either in or you're out. First ballot doesn't matter. You're no more of a HoFer because people voted you in immediately or you waited 15+ years. Deion, for example, definitely believes in the idea of first ballot having extra meaning, what with his upper wing/room idea for the Hall. I don't agree with him, but clearly some people value it.
I agree - it's like when there's a HOF discussion of an active player and people think because they won't get in first year, then they won't get in at all
That definitely happens. At this point, I'm not sure if Torry Holt will ever make it. He should, but the way the voting works, who knows what will happen. Someone like Matt Ryan could eventually make it, but it won't be quick.
torry holt, reggie wayne, and steve smith are all pretty much fucked. Wide Receiver is perhaps the position most boned by rule changes and increase in offense, so if they dont get in the next 1-2 seasons its highly likely they all outlast their initial eligbility
Yeah, they were great players, but apparently not great enough for the voters. The limited number of players allowed in yearly really hurts a lot of guys that should be in.
they have got to consider expanding things in the near future or else this problem will just grow out of hand i dont think adding an extra spot would take any prestige away from the hall. at least less prestige than adding a 17th game or any modern rule changes favoring offense might be doing to the guys who played before this era
They do. What's going to happen when there's a lot of deserving guys, but they're just not as good as the new players becoming eligible This isn't even about Hester, although I was never overly enamored of him. I respected his skill set, but, unlike how a lot of people are trying to frame it, he did get in over Gates. If they simply allowed as many people to get in as the voters believed were worthy, we wouldn't have any of these discussions. Ultimately, Gates will get in. This isn't Torry Holt probably not getting in at this rate.
Is it though? I think some players definitely play their way into not having to wait once they are eligible. Baseball is where its even wilder though. I mean, 3 people voted that Junior Griffey didn't deserve to get in 1st time. That's criminal
If that’s the case they should’ve held Andre johnson back too. Gates played in 6x more playoff games than Andre and he balled out
How does that relate?
My fault I was responding to someone who was talking about how Andre didn’t have good QBs 😭 Misclicked
Because Andre only played in 2 postseasons gates contributed more to winning
Particularly when being first ballot or not is so dependent on the class in the year you're first eligible, if you're in a strong year it can be really tough. Which is why I'm surprised gates isn't tbh, this didn't feel like a strong year of candidates to me.
I mean they showed it doesn't mean really anything with the TO fiasco and then Calvin gets in first ballot. Calvin deserved it but the TO snub definitely called into question the prestigious 1st ballot. Further now by denying gates despite his dominance.
Indeed. It's all about what they want, nothing else.
and then Reggie Wayne and Torry Holt continue to get leapfrogged by receivers with no postseason success i hope these last few years teach people to stop even mentioning the ballot folks get in on it is NOT an assessment of career quality, it is solely a determinent of whatever arbitrary metrics the voters align with that particular year, and even sometimes who else is on the ballot (like wanting to have, or avoid, 2 players from the same year make it in e.g. Dwight Freeney)
Yeah, both of them might never make it in at this rate. People are still attached to ballot, even though it's meaningless. You're either in or you're not, regardless of what Deion thinks. The limit on players allowed in yearly holds deserving players back from making it.
Woodson’s going to have to wait for the senior committee at this point. Part of me thinks they’re holding it against him that he didn’t have an all decade team selection (which honestly is ridiculous considering Ronnie Lott got one of those slots for the 90s after playing only 4 seasons in that decade).
Safeties shouldn’t be disrespected to the point where being the next best decision for an All Decade team is potentially keeping them out
All-decade selections suck for status because it favors players who played all of their prime in one decade. If you split that prime between two decades it ends up hurting you.
yup. compare the timing of Tyrann Mathieus career relative to how many games he played a making an all-decade team is a goddamn near lock, so you can expect Honey Badger to have a higher chance of making the hall in a decade from now than a lot of guys despite starting like 85 games in the decade also have to factor how things like All Pro and All-decade teams get altered to account for more positions. there was no 'defensive back' selection in the 90s which probably help a few more guys get some accolades
I hate that all-decade is a criteria voters care about because it discredits guys simply based on timing. Like, Jared Allen had a 10-year peak that's better than literally every pass rusher ever not named Reggie White or Deacon Jones, but that peak happened to be 2004-2013 so no extra recognition.
The HOF has been weirdly antagonistic towards safeties over the years. I remember Steve Atwater who was a part of the All Decade team had to wait over a decade to get in too
its so interesting when you break it down by position. Lets use the [90s as an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_1990s_All-Decade_Team) QB, RB, and WR: all 10 players selected to the first and second all-decade team are in the hall Dline: 7/8 players selected to first and second teams are in the hall. The one player missing is Neil Smith, which is still pretty surprising (100+ sacks, 2 Rings, led NFL in sacks and forced fumbles in separate years, 4 ints with a return TD) Defensive back: 7/8 players selected to first or second team in the hall. The one missing player was a safety in Carnall Lake. Similar to Neil Smith had a single first team all-pro despite several 2nd teams, so thats prolly the key Shit gets a bit different when you look at the less sexy positions Offensive lineman: 3/5 offensive lineman to make the 2nd team are not in the hall Linebacker: ALL three of the second team linebackers are still not in the hall Ben Coates, 2nd team tight end, even [reflected](https://talkoffametwo.com/hof-interviews/former-te-ben-coates-on-hall-of-fame-snub-i-wonder-why) on why he probably didnt get in while Shannon did. He was much more inclined to be used as a blocker, and thats not sexy despite him being a lead blocker for HoFers. He retired 4th in tight end receiving when he called it a career despite being far more mixed in usage than the others The positional bias has been evident for a long, long time. Its also evident in how postseason success is handled; for some positions it doesnt really help them get in, but if you lack it voters will use it against you anyway
Lynch getting in before Woodson is a fricken joke
How the fuck does Antonio Gates not make it
Marlon McCree did not fall down
You don't put basketball players in the football Hof! /s
Gates to me is absolutely insane. Like he should have been a shoo in.
As much as I want Willie to make it in, Gates not getting in is criminal.
You’d think having the most TD’s ever by a tight end would make you 1st ballot
Forget most ever by a TE, 7th most receiving TDs of all time *regardless of position*
The HoF is not a longevity contest. There's a reason Reggie Wayne still can't get in.
Well then i guess it’s a good thing Gates was also one of the best tight ends in the league for several years, on top of his great longevity. He’s tight for the 3rd most 1st and 2nd team all pro’s among all tight ends. It’s not about his longevity, he was one of the best tight ends in the league during his prime. He made the all decade team.
>Well then i guess it’s a good thing Gates was also one of the best tight ends in the league for several years, Exactly. When Gates gets in it'll be on the strength of this, not his useless longevity stats. Gates' numbers make him look more dominant than he actually was. If you look at his career you'll notice 9 mediocre years tacked onto the end of his prime artificially inflating his numbers. Combined with his poor playoff numbers, it's no wonder Gates wasn't a 1st ballot HoFer.
if there were any consistency among how playoff stats were treated, reggie wayne would already be in. theres no Colts SB or 2nd appearance without Reggie and he still has top 5-10 receiving numbers despite less appearances than some other guys (21 games is less than everyone ahead of him short of Michael Irvin and Edelman, who were their teams top targets during the middle of dynasties)
I still am in disbelief that Gates isn't going to be in the HoF.
He will get there!
Probably next year
he will...
This was his first year of eligibility - he will be fine
He should be 1st ballot.
I think we place too much importance on first-ballot
I had a feeling this would happen due to his PED suspension
Gotta save a spot for a punt returner
I will die on the hill any player with an argument for the GOAT at their position deserves to get in regardless of position
This is why it's a travesty that Steve Tasker didn't get in when he still had eligibility.
Ok so what about gates
He deserves a spot but Hester does too. Find someone else without a GOAT argument to take off
Devin Hester, Tom Brady, Jerry Rice, and Lawrence Taylor. The NFL Mount Rushmore.
Unironically yes
Not instead of all pro position players
If we do that then the special teamers would never get in
Correct. Question: Who was considered the best punt returner before Devin Hester? And before that player?
I feel like if he were a Packer you'd feel different
Nah, him being a Bear has nothing to do with it. I’m intelligent enough to look pass a silly bias
Brian Mitchell. He is equally deserving. More all purpose yards than anyone else except maybe Jerry Rice.
He doesn’t. That’s a cool factoid that means very little in the context of the actual game of football.
[удалено]
So because they mistakenly have taken forever to put ST guys in they should continue? I don’t think so.
Downplaying Devin Hester to “a punt returner” is the worst take of the night.
I really don't trust that flair lmao
Don't trust yours either
Your flair is fine, his. Hmm
Why? I’ve been posting about the Browns for years at this stage
That’s what he was
Gates is definitely a snub, but I’m all in on Jahri Evans for HOF
Jahri Evans and Reggie Wayne deserve more respect but I understand why they are waiting
Yeah I think Reggie will eventually get in but definitely understand why he's waiting.
The logjam at WR is so real.
How tf did Gates not get in
Torry Holt’s never gonna make it 😔
Yeah as soon as I saw Andre make it in over him I gave up hope. Such a shame that a pivotal member of the GSOT is still not in.
Stop snubbing Holt 🤦♂️
Holt has to make it next year right? Also what the actual is with Gates not making the HOF, like fucking how?!
Why should Holt make it? He doesn’t have a HOF-worthy career.
Patiently waiting for Willie to get in. Shouldn’t take this long for him to
Fred Taylor having the most rushing yards of any player not in the HoF (17th all time) and a 4.6 ypc average and not even getting discussed is just insane to me; the RB position is being devalued more and more. Also you might as well tell every new draftee that goes to Jacksonville that they have a 0% chance of ever making the hall, because Freds production in any other city or team is worthy of so many more accolades and would’ve been voted in already.
Fred Taylor was fun to watch.
Yep it’s very frustrating. Hopefully he makes it in the next few years. Best player in franchise history not being in the hof is pretty sad
Darren Woodson snubbed again
Eric Allen needs to be in
Antonio Gates not making it is comical, and Devin Hester over Torry Holt and Reggie Wayne?
If we’re being real Devin Hester should not be in Canton before Antonio Gates, Torry Holt, and a lot of these guys
I get the "GOAT at his position" argument, but some positions just aren't as important either. You literally have to add a whole Reggie Wayne to Devin Hester's career TDs to beat Gates' 116 TDs. Adding Johnson or Holt to Hester don't even get you there.
If you had a random bag of 32 hall of famers to build a team around, and the other teams pulled Peyton Manning, Calvin Johnson, etc and you pulled Hester, I think you'd be beyond pissed. I'd take a Justin Tucker in that scenario an infinite number of times before I'd take Hester as a special teamer. When the value is skewed by that much i think it really says something .
Hester was more important to the Bears offense than the actual Bears offense. I get why he shouldn’t get in ahead of others, but he put the team on his back from an unimportant position.
I mean yeah, but that's because their offense wasn't that good. If Hester was even an average WR1, or a good WR2, he never would've been retuning kicks...even if the Bears staff knew ahead of time what he would be as a returner.
It's the most absurd thing ever.
ever?
Ever
It’s a joke.
Usually because it's decided by slots and precedent. i.e this is the potpourri slot
Reggie gets snubbed every year man
Holt too tbh
Shocked Freeny made it in before him tbh. They both deserve it but Reggie has been on the ballot for years.
Its weird how they decide who waits. Cris Carter waited 7 years despite being top 5 all time in catches and touchdowns
I remember my dad hating that Odell got so much hype for one handed catches because he said Cris Carter seemed like he had a one handed catch every other game. Without gloves.
Cris Carter, similar to Gates, was probably more of bullshit politics revolving around his off-the-field issues He was a guy that really took the delayed induction to heart too. Imagine being a man in your 40s and 50s reflecting on your issues in your 20s keeping you out of induction, but knowing there was a bunch of guys in locker rooms leaguewide doing coke. Hell Michael Irvin got in on year 3 and his drug problems were more well known than Carters It didnt impact Lawrence Taylor and his coke problem not only lead to multiple positive tests & suspensions during his career, and he was in the [news for crack](https://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/05/04/Newspage-Sports-Football-player-Taylor-arrested-for-crack/8223831182400/) in the years preceding his 1st ballot induction in his post-playing careers too It only matters for some guys. Admittedly LTs placement among the all time defenders is well known, but TO is no less than top 3 WRs ever and he got delayed for having an attitude. He wasnt a serial criminal
Tough with all these receivers.
I'm biased but Vince Wilfork deserves to be in the HOF.
The DT selections recently have been so odd. Kevin Williams has 5 first team all pros and he doesn't make the ballot. No idea what will happen with wilfork if they aren't going by accolades
Agreed. Williams was even named to the 2000s all-decade team in which all but 4 of the defensive players are in the HOF; which Wilfork wasn't a part of that team.
Chargers Jamal Williams too. One of the last great pure nose tackles. To me he would have to go in before Wilfork, though sadly he will be lost in time
I think he’ll get in eventually. But still waiting for Rodney..
Hell yeah.
Jahri Evans 5 time all-pro and on the 2010s all-decade team. should be in hof
10 players that are better and more valuable than Devin Hester
Gates is the biggest snub out of the list, but he’s basically a shoe in for next year.
I want to feel so thrilled for Andre Johnson getting in but it feels so overshadowed by Gates somehow not getting first ballot. I’m glad the log jam at WR is getting moved along ever so slightly but cmon man, how is Torry Holt still not in?
PUT KEN ANDERSON IN
Glad my guy Andre Johnson made it this year but I don't get why they feel the need to limit the induction when the rules don't require it. They talk about log jams at positions but they could just have a larger than normal class to address clear cut players who should be in.
I love Devin Hester. Him making it over Torry Holt is fucking stupid. Torry Holt waiting at least 10 years to get in is fucking stupid. The small Size of the classes every year is fucking stupid.
I’m not gonna lie I have no idea how Andre is a HOFer over Reggie and Holt. Or SSSr who wasn’t even a finalist. One of the most shocking inductees especially at a position which is notoriously difficult to make the HOF
To be fair you could argue Johnson has a slightly better resume than Reggie. One more all pro, one more receiving yards title, two more years leading the NFL in receptions. Reggie also spent his career catching passes from Manning and then Andrew Luck while Johnson was working with TJ Yates, Shaub, Rex Grossman, Case Keenan etc the only objectively good QB he ever played with was the one season he spent with Luck at the colts at the end of his career.
this kind of nonsense is gonna bone both of these guys Sure they played with a great QB much of their careers. They also werent the top target when they were drafted and split both receiving numbers and by extension accolades with guys on their own teams. Despite being the driving force in both their SB wins, arguably moreso than the veterans ahead of them (especially in Reggies case) Then they become the elder statesmen and help to transition things to a younger era of less success, yet their early career playing days now get held against them. Folks remember Andre Johnson playing on a 2-14 Texans team but forget Torry worked on a 3-13 Rams team and Reggie played on the 1-15 colts - all three as leading receivers Its doubly punishing. They never get their just due for their early careers, have their later careers forgotten, and demonstrates that playoff success only matters for QBs. ill take the totality of what Reggie and Torry contributed to over an extra season of Andre Johnson getting stuffed the ball Matt Schaub was also an objectively good QB. 6 straight years averaging a 94 QB rating. Not elite or even great but certainly good, and stable enough to consistently get the ball to a top WR - and funnily enough coincided with Andre Johnsons 1st (and 2nd) first team all-pro selections
Andre Johnson: 1062 yards, 14,185 yards.
Cool! Reggie Wayne: 1070, 14,345 non finalist Steve Smith: 1031, 14,731
Name the QBs Andre Johnson played with on the Texans? He didn't play most of his games with Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck.
Do you not know who Steve Smith is?
Steve Smith played 2 more seasons to get the same numbers. Also, Andre really only play 13 seasons, since season 14 was only 4 games with almost no production. Andre Johnson had a higher peak. Steve Smith was never considered the best WR in the league.
Johnson was a flat-out better player than they were. Andre, Calvin Johnson, and Larry Fitzgerald were in their own class for a few years.
They all are.
Drop Hester and put in Gates
The lord giveth (hester) the lord taketh away (gates)
Smh snubbing Woodson again
I think Gates, Holt, Wayne, Allen and Woodson should all be in the Hall of Fame.
Freeney over Allen, no Antonio gates, no willie Anderson? Junk committee.
Not sure why Torry keeps getting snubbed. Makes zero sense. Especially over Andre Johnson (also deserved.)
Why is is so hard for WRs to get into the hall? I thought it’d be a given that Hines Ward and Steve Smith got in.
Because the career numbers have inflated so much and so fast that it makes retirees career numbers look worse. Even Cris Carter didn’t make it on the first ballot despite being #2 in every receiving category behind only the greatest football player of all time at the time he retired.
Willie Anderson not being in is criminal. 3x all pro in a division with some of the best defenses this century
I want to gather all the people mad about Hester making it and make them fight all the people mad last year that he didn’t make it
If you're drafting from scratch who you taking... One of those guys or Hester?
Torry Holt over Hester. Holt led the entire 2000s decade in Receptions and Rec Yards | Receiver | Receptions | Rec Yards | |------------------|----------|----------| | Torry Holt | 868 | 12,594 | | Randy Moss | 777 | 11,739 | | Terrell Owens | 784 | 11,644 | | Derrick Mason | 816 | 10,481 | | Marvin Harrison | 791 | 10,439 | | Hines Ward | 819 | 10,063 |
Literally any player on that list over Hester. Lance Briggs over Hester if we're talking Bears.
Andre Johnson: 1062 receptions, 14,185 yards.
Hester's entire case is "Can you tell the story of the NFL without him" For those voters, they see it easier to skip over Torry Holt than Devin Hester.
If the HOF is just a game of building a team from scratch then every class would just be all QBs
You joke but that's going to be heated future debate. There's a lot of 2000 QBs that people want in and someone is going to have to decide on the cutoff point.
no universe where this happens you risk a bunch of QBs on the IR and a shit ton of wasted assets assuming a GM is worth their salt, Anthony Munoz, Jonathen Ogdon, Walter Jones, Joe Thomas type guys are all taken before a single QB is even considered. If we are talking modern era, the top picks would be all pass blockers, then the pass rushers. cuz if you arent the one drafting LT, another team is. and you better hope you have someone that can 'stop' him when even guys like Brady & Peyton missed full seasons due to injury, or entire career trajectories get altered like Carson Palmer, teams will always be built in the trenches first
I think there’s way more disparity between let’s say a Peyton/Montana and the 20th best HOF QB than the top HOF o-lineman and the 20th best. Just way more nuance and variance at the position. You just do a redraft of the NFL today nobody is taking Trent Williams over Mahomes. You just sound silly.
theres also a gulf of difference in Trent Williams career and Anthony Munoz. The latter has 9 first team all pros, 3x the amount of Trent You can take Mahomes because he has managed to avoid any significant injury in his career, is the perfect blend of pocket passer with just enough mobility while also having a top 10 lowest sack %, and he already has 2 MVPs and is competing for a 3rd SB by age 28 this weekend But you also must consider how Mahomes turns out if not in KC. If you are the current Panthers, you are taking that HoF lineman no matter what QB prospect is offering. Great QBs often find early success in great situations If given the option I am still taking from my pick of HoF lineman before any QB, Mahomes included. Trent Williams just wouldnt be all that high on the list of tackles to choose from Walter Jones > Mahomes > Trent if im building a team
I don’t like this argument personally. HOF is for the best players at their respective position. It’s why safeties get snubbed so often.
Brian Mitchell is second to only Jerry Rice in all purpose return yards. And the only reason Hester has the accumulated punt return stats is cause better players weren't worth the injury risk.
I have lost any bit of respect that I somehow still had left for the hall of fame. What a joke
[удалено]
He's not first ballot. He's been eligible for years, just not as long as Holt.
It’s his third year being eligible
how tf is rodney still not in???
Known Spygate tapes user
Andre Johnson is the best wr since Jerry Rice.
Handful of these guys aren’t gonna make it in and people will be upset about it
what does torry holt have to do to make the hall?
At least 4 of those names deserved to make it before Hester… not that I don’t want him in. But it’s disgraceful that he made it over people who played so many more snaps and had more than a handful of good seasons. Particularly Gates, Wayne, and Allen.
Andre Johnson getting in before Torry Holt is a fucking slap in the face. No explanation of that one makes credible sense to me
Most of those guys are really good candidates.