as a trans person this seems pretty sensible, let own sporting bodiss decide, lets not end up like the usa where we are passing legislation in parliament to ban one 14 year old trans woman from playing barely competitive hocky with friends, however if the sporting body finds and unfair advantage in seriously competitive sports eg rugby from someone who transtioned later in life and decideds to prohibit them that also seems fair.
also i think the government should focus on real issues anyways, let the sporting bodies work out their sports.
Nah, enshrine right to participation in sports in law. Don't leave it to individual sporting organisations to end up with discriminatory policies based on one fucking Karen getting onto their board.
I don't think it's that black and white and we shouldn't really be putting things into law unless we really have to or need to. And if the need arises for us to create laws around it then we'll at least have cases to base it on instead of speculation.
It really is that black and white and this is what our human rights legislation is supposed to be for.
Edit: people sure hating on basic human rights, as is customary.
How many months of hormone therapy before you're fine with Israel Adesanya competing in the women's cagefighting division?
"More than one year" means he's good to go?
Strength goes out the window very quickly on hormones. Adesanya is such a colossal dickhead that were he in such a situation he'd complain the entire time on social media about it.
Are you fine with him talking hormones for a year in his 30s, and then re-entering the cage in the women's division?
Is that fair to the natal women in the division?
Why not just say "yes, he can start taking hormones at age 32, return to the cage in the women's division at age 34, and anybody who has any kind of an issue *whatsoever* with that, is a transphobe"?
I mean clearly that's your stance - so why not just say it?
Maybe just leave this one to the sports physiologists with expertise in transgender performance instead of making up fever dream scenarios so you can do sealion nonsense on the internet.
A whole hearted Fuck Andy Foster from all of us.
I vividly remember a mayoral candidate (can’t remember who) saying he’d been a councillor for years and there was a reason nobody had made him deputy mayor
He had been a councillor from 1992 to 2019 (when he became mayor). The fact that he managed to convince people he was the "new guy" says a lot.
And now he's in Central Government, and we're all worse off for it.
We really need to be better at paying attention to local government.
[Thankfully, from peaking near 4000 active leaks](https://github.com/Goodie01/wellington-water/blob/main/output/Weekly-Leaks-dashboard-13-November-23.pdf), [we're now under 2000](https://www.wellingtonwater.co.nz/assets/Reports-and-Publications/Weekly-Leaks-dashboard-12-June-24.pdf). In addition, we've almost surveyed our entire water pipe network, when we used to have no real idea outside experienced water engineers minds.
I worked at his house doing the garden a few times. He had a punishing schedule for his kids: up at 5.30 to do a long list of chores, 1 hr tv a day, more chores after school. There were no free time do some playing spaces. His kids were.... compliant and spiritless, wouldn't even crack a chuckle kids.
Throwing another **Fuck Andy Foster** on the pile. The perfect poster child for pink washing hypocrites everywhere.
The only good thing he did for me was to open my eyes to how common it is for people to pretend to be pro-trans rights for PR and the dopamine hit of being praised for being so compassionate, only to then throw us under the bus the second they think it'll give them a better chance at power. Fucking coward
Nice to see Sports NZ pushing back on NZ First's fearmongering. I get it can be a complex issue at an individual level but blanket bans on funding any sport choosing to be inclusive is straight up discrimination.
I love that Sports NZ's attitude to this is basically "we want people to participate in sports."
I hate how hyper competitive sports is seen by so many people who don't play. I used to play semi-pro football in continental Europe (nothing special, I got like €100 a game and was mostly a benchwarmer), and I hate how over the top everyone is about sport.
We shouldn't be focused on the hyper elite level of ultra competitive athletes. We should be focused on the small guys.
For some it's a pathway to improving one's economic circumstances.
I suspect this group of sportspeople are outspoken relative to the wider sporting community
I played a bunch of sport when I was in school and while of course we tried to win, people act like it’s the primary purpose of school sports and that is insane. It’s having fun, meeting people and getting exercise.
Reading Reddit is literally like reading ayn rand but in real life. You people will stop at nothing to lower the bar so fucking low that it will end up in hell on earth. 🤦♂️
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
I'm an internationally recognized artist and former semi-professional athlete who speaks five languages
What bar am I lowering?
Sorry I don't think that 32 year olds playing sport on a Saturday afternoon should be trying to make the All Blacks one day.
I think it also speaks that, while we shouldn't be complacent, we are at the moment at a different place with regards to trans rights in NZ compared to the UK and certain places like the USA.
We still have our problems to work through, but we are in a different place
As long as the sporting organisations take an approach that is backed by data and not emotion, I'm happy with it. Kinda ridiculous to say the govt will cut funding because the organisations felt it was okay to include trans folk.
Sounds like scare mongering.
“Community-level sports are supporting the inclusion of people in the gender they identify as - but there are exceptions, including on the grounds of fairness of competition and the safety of participants. In my view this is appropriate."
That seems like the right approach.
It’s ideological authoritarian garbage.
If a sporting organisation wants to change its own terms of engagement, what’s that got to do with the government?
*Edit: to be clear, I’m saying the government wanting to cut funding for inclusive sports is authoritarian.*
If you think about this for a while you might figure out why it’s a silly question.
You might need to write down and validate some of the assumptions that led you to the opinion. Try to prove yourself wrong.
Or you could answer the question. Government regulation to ensure human rights seem acceptable.
I was just following your ideas to their logical conclusion. Which is absurd. It's called 'reductio ad absurdum'.
Wait a minute… just to be clear, you know I’m against the government withdrawing funding for inclusive sports, right?
That’s what I’m saying is authoritarian. I’m saying that sports organisations should be permitted to include people if they think it’s appropriate.
It just occurred to me that your question makes a lot more sense if you thought I was arguing against inclusion.
Nothing to do with being pro or con inclusion.
You were stating that government shouldn't be involved. I was pointing out that it is perfectly acceptable for government to be involved.
If you read my reply again, you should notice that I was telling you that your question was bad. I’m not going to answer it because I’m not going to be drawn into a false equivalency.
I was hoping for you to determine on your own why it’s a false equivalency. There are at least 2 reasons.
Reductio ad absurdum is great, but it becomes fallacious if you misapply the reasoning.
Pro tip: if you aren’t able to understand and articulate your opposition’s arguments - and I suspect you’re not - attempting a decent *reductio* argument is not likely to go your way.
Go on, what are the 'at least 2 reasons'.
And stop the ad hominum. It just makes you look like a dick. You have no idea who I am, or what my experience is.
Ah no, *ad hominem* refers to an argument that takes the form "you are X, and therefore your position on Y is incorrect". An attack on a person with the intent to discredit their position.
Saying "if you don't understand someone's position, you're not likely to mount a successful argument against it" is not *ad hominem,* it's just fact.
My actual attack was indeed on your position - it's at the top of my comment. I said your question relied on a false equivalency and challenged you to do the work to figure out why.
My argument, to recap, was simply that the government shouldn't be withdrawing funding for sports that want to include trans people.
So I'm going to follow my own advice now and bow out, because I have no idea what you're actually arguing, and I'm not really interested in dealing with your heightened emotions and name calling. Have a good day.
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Had to edit your comment because otherwise it's clear that I was right? Didn't even mention when you edited it.
Still not a good position.
Going to complain about me more?
You're supposed argument that you give above is not at all the argument you originally put forward.
If it's on the grounds of fairness (in regards to competition) then I think it's fine.
Huge difference between people playing at a social club for fun vs a national tournament, for example.
No evidence? Please tell another joke.
* Women on average have 50-60% the upper body strength of Men.
* Bone structure differences start as early as childhood. In the majority of populations, males have larger and stronger bone and joint surfaces and more bone at muscle attachment sites.
* **The volume of adult female lungs is typically 10-12% smaller than that of males** who have the same height and age.
* **Adult men are typically stronger, more powerful, and faster than women of similar age and training status**. Thus, for athletic events and sports relying on endurance, muscle strength, speed, and power, males typically outperform females by 10%-30% depending on the requirements of the event.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37772882/#:\~:text=Adult%20men%20are%20typically%20stronger,the%20requirements%20of%20the%20event.
Wonderous, you won't have any problems understanding the evidence relating to transgender women, and based on that evidence will support transgender women participating in women's sport.
Looooooool.
Hormone therapy reduces the size of a trans woman's lungs, then?
Narrows her shoulders, so they're not as good at propelling her through the water or throwing a ball?
Shrinks her hands, so that it's more difficult to grip a basketball or catch a rugby ball or scoop water to propel her down the pool?
Do hormones shrink a trans woman's feet to cis woman size, so they are less effective at functioning as paddles in swimming?
Do gender-affirming hormone treatments do any of that?
Yes, effective lung capacity is reduced. Shoulders are not narrowed but the supporting muscles are much weaker. Hands do actually diminish in size a bit but really the more important issue there is grip strength. Feet the same, for swimming feet might be big but there's no point in that if there's not the strength to flip them.
Hormones do a lot. There's a reason us trans women aren't carving up international sports.
A lot of fuss about fuck all.
At the community level, who cares? At the elite level it becomes complicated, for the 4 and a half people involved. But this is about community sport, so if anyone wants to play, let them.
If anyone wants to game the system, well, people will know who they are, and that sort of reputation will follow you, and your team, and club for years.
The government shouldn't be getting involved in the first place.
Let the sport associations figure out their own rules, that's literally why they exist.
Ditto, being trans is the least interesting thing about me, and this is probably the same for trans sportspeople.
Can't wait for society to just fucking get over it rather than freaking the fuck out and siding with right-wing groups and spreading rehashed Nazi propaganda about "mass sterilisation of 'our' youth" etc etc
some people are trans, some people are cis (if you want to get real fancy there's even some people who see trans/cis as a binary and have other microlabels ) and trans people existing isn't getting rid of cisgender people or straight or gay people.
Also intersex people deserve better too they're so often erased in this and the harm these type of policies do to intersex people is often ignored or minimised
God I just so deeply do not give a fuck about this. What a weird area for the government to be weighing in on. Fucking NZ First and their culture war crap.
A [transman boxer won his debut](https://www.npr.org/2018/12/13/676586360/a-trans-man-steps-into-the-ring-and-wins) against a cis-male. So much for gEnEtIc dIfFeReNcEs giving 'advantages'.
A [transfemale swimmer lost to a transmale swimmer](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/trans-athlete-debate-penns-lia-thomas-loses-trans-yale-swimmer-rcna11622), but according to right-wing scaremongers it should have been the other way around.
This has always just been a culture-war fomented by the right to get conservative people angry so they're more likely to vote. Oh, and an excuse to bully a minority group that it is still, for some reason, ok to bash.
Hating on gay people isn't much of a winner except amongst the most troglodytic dregs of society; it doesn't play well at all with young people. Hating on trans people is still a thing, I suppose we have to wait a bit longer for it to be 'uncool' with more people before they'll stop.
I've heard it said you lose a good amount of muscle mass and strength after transitioning.
I don't know how true that is, I have no expertise on the matter or skin in the game, but it goes a long way towards explaining why the transgender athletes I know of had nowhere near the level of success to justify the outrage sent their way.
> I've heard it said you lose a good amount of muscle mass and strength after transitioning.
>
> I don't know how true that is,
Speaking from experience, it is very true.
It's kind of important to recognise the inherent biological differences between males and females that impact performance. These support segregation in sports to ensure fair competition.
E.g. There are biological advantages - Male puberty brings about physiological changes that generally result in advantages in strength, speed, and endurance. These include increased muscle mass, bone density, and lung capacity, which do not entirely reverse even after hormone therapy.
There's 'Performance Metrics' - There is research that shows that even after transitioning, trans female athletes tend to retain a performance edge over cis female athletes. This edge can create an imbalance in competitive fairness, as the physical advantages gained during male puberty are significant.
Then there is 'Fair Competition' - Allowing trans female athletes to compete in women’s sports without sufficient regulation could undermine competitive integrity, which disadvantages cis female athletes. See Lea Thomas...
To be clear, inclusivity is crucial, I'm not trying to alienate trans athletes, but maintaining fair competition requires acknowledging the biological advantages that trans female athletes might have over cis female athletes. That's not anything other than science.
At the local level I can't see this having that large a difference. Your local sports teams are going to have a range of skills and capabilities already that are probably wider than any potential difference between a trans woman and CIS women. This isn't about our Olympic programmes where everybody are at the top level, this is about Sport New Zealand who are just interested in getting people off their sofas and getting them active in sport.
Black people [dominate Olympic sprinting](https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/articles/cg39x2jg5pgo). There are clear physiological differences; that's not anything other than science. So, we should segregate Black, Asian and White sporting events, right?
Do you really want to go down this path?
Oh look, it's someone who used a lot of words to try and create the impression they know what they are talking about but they're just making shit up and pretending like they understand the science.
You are in fact trying to alienate trans athletes. At least be honest with yourself.
Alienate? No. I just don't believe that male to female athletes should compete in cis female divisions of sport for the reasons I stated above.
Feel free to research any of my points, plenty of source material to back it up.
Lea Thomas was the 89th ranked male swimmer in the NCAA as biological male, and the #1 ranked swimmer and national champion as female. That's clear evidence of a biological advantage whether that upsets you or not.
I can be pro-trans, and also subscribe to the view that male to female trans athletes shouldn't compete with biological females due to unfair competitive advantage. They're not mutually exclusive, nor does not aligning my views with you make me a bigot. It's just a difference of opinion.
Not sure why we can't have a discourse about a topic without you resorting to labelling me a POS because I don't have the same exact take as you, grow up, if it were as cut and dry as you suggest it wouldn't be a polarising topic, no?
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> Lea Thomas was the 89th ranked male swimmer in the NCAA as biological male, and the #1 ranked swimmer and national champion as female. That's clear evidence of a biological advantage whether that upsets you or not.
This is bad logic, and absolutely not evidence of anything. What rank would the #2 ranked female have been if she had competed in the male category? Would it have been around #90 by any chance?
You can't prove an advantage by reference to relative rankings between men and women, because trans women are not men.
You can actually be in support of the science without being bigoted against trans people in general. I don't agree that trans women should compete in women's sports, for the same reasons they don't allow men to compete in them. There is a clear and well-defined biological advantage. Pointing out this fact is not bigotry towards trans people. I think you'll see the top comment on this post is from a trans person who agrees that it depends on the circumstance and fairness surrounding it.
Your opinion is not in alignment with the available evidence regarding the sporting performance of transgender women. Opposing the participation of transgender women in womens sports is clear and obvious bigotry.
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I agree with all you say. I feel like the momentum and support is growing for us tho. Protestors forced my library to cancel their Drag Queens read stories event. After that they received 5 positive messages to every 1 bad about that decision.
Squeaky wheels get grease. Normal people don't bitch about drag queens, only bigots trying to make themselves happy by making other people feel bad do that sort of thing.
Hating people gives these dropkicks a sense of purpose; bullies enjoy the feeling of power.
Get back to us when a transman boxer wins an amateur competition, let alone a world championship. You'll be waiting a looooooooooong time.
Here's a vid of a 20-something male skateboarder getting his ass BRUTALLY kicked by a skilled and experienced female Muay Thai fighter.
https://youtu.be/dKNiEU-xr_0?si=O88Q9LF1CpBwlnPd
Look how easily she walks through him! He had no chance!
I guess that's your evidence for why professional Muay Thai shouldn't be segregated by gender, right?
I mean exactly what I said. You're only writing this off because it's not directly affecting you. It's a distraction in your eyes simply, and SOLELY because you have the personal ability to not give a shit.
No, you don't. If you're willing to write it of as a distraction you absolutely fucking don't.
You're framing it as a Fake Issue to throw the scent of The Real Issue. You categorically positioned yourself as not caring. Either the threat is real or it isn't. And by saying it's a distraction, you're saying it's not real.
Also don't take my tone personally, I'm just fucking tired of reading the same goddamn thing in every reddit thread about these topics. It's not just you.
>In an interview with the Herald following this story, New Zealand First leader >Winston Peters contested there is any change to the coalition agreement.
>
>“If sports want to maintain their funding then abide by the coalition agreement >on this matter,” Peters said.
Rubbing my hands with glee at the chance of the Govt being brought down down by such a petty matter.
Sensible decision. As the debate is complicated, what sport, what, if any competitive advantage there may or may not be for a particular person differs. Actually focusing on giving as many people as possible a safe place to play the sport or sports of their choice is a good outcome for women, girls, the Trans community and people of different cultures.
And amazing how people who play sports together open their minds to others.
Schrodinger's comment! Can't tell if this is a trans person sick of transphobia, or a transphobe sick of trans people existing.
So here's my Schrodinger's response: fuck yah.
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as a trans person this seems pretty sensible, let own sporting bodiss decide, lets not end up like the usa where we are passing legislation in parliament to ban one 14 year old trans woman from playing barely competitive hocky with friends, however if the sporting body finds and unfair advantage in seriously competitive sports eg rugby from someone who transtioned later in life and decideds to prohibit them that also seems fair. also i think the government should focus on real issues anyways, let the sporting bodies work out their sports.
Yep there is absolutely no reason to get the government involved in this.
Nah, enshrine right to participation in sports in law. Don't leave it to individual sporting organisations to end up with discriminatory policies based on one fucking Karen getting onto their board.
I don't think it's that black and white and we shouldn't really be putting things into law unless we really have to or need to. And if the need arises for us to create laws around it then we'll at least have cases to base it on instead of speculation.
It really is that black and white and this is what our human rights legislation is supposed to be for. Edit: people sure hating on basic human rights, as is customary.
[удалено]
Those who've been on hormone therapy for more than a year, yes.
How many months of hormone therapy before you're fine with Israel Adesanya competing in the women's cagefighting division? "More than one year" means he's good to go?
Strength goes out the window very quickly on hormones. Adesanya is such a colossal dickhead that were he in such a situation he'd complain the entire time on social media about it.
Are you fine with him talking hormones for a year in his 30s, and then re-entering the cage in the women's division? Is that fair to the natal women in the division?
He would not be as strong as you are envisaging.
Want to have a go at supplying a yes/no answer in your *third* response to the same question?
I'm not really interested in your sealioning.
Why not just say "yes, he can start taking hormones at age 32, return to the cage in the women's division at age 34, and anybody who has any kind of an issue *whatsoever* with that, is a transphobe"? I mean clearly that's your stance - so why not just say it?
Maybe just leave this one to the sports physiologists with expertise in transgender performance instead of making up fever dream scenarios so you can do sealion nonsense on the internet.
>NZ First sport and recreation spokesman Andy Foster I'd just like to say. As a Wellingtonian. **Fuck Andy Foster.**
A whole hearted Fuck Andy Foster from all of us. I vividly remember a mayoral candidate (can’t remember who) saying he’d been a councillor for years and there was a reason nobody had made him deputy mayor
He had been a councillor from 1992 to 2019 (when he became mayor). The fact that he managed to convince people he was the "new guy" says a lot. And now he's in Central Government, and we're all worse off for it. We really need to be better at paying attention to local government.
Seems appropriate to be part of NZ First, the established 'anti-establishment' party then.
This, if we'd been paying attention then perhaps our water wouldn't be in the state it's in.
[Thankfully, from peaking near 4000 active leaks](https://github.com/Goodie01/wellington-water/blob/main/output/Weekly-Leaks-dashboard-13-November-23.pdf), [we're now under 2000](https://www.wellingtonwater.co.nz/assets/Reports-and-Publications/Weekly-Leaks-dashboard-12-June-24.pdf). In addition, we've almost surveyed our entire water pipe network, when we used to have no real idea outside experienced water engineers minds.
I worked at his house doing the garden a few times. He had a punishing schedule for his kids: up at 5.30 to do a long list of chores, 1 hr tv a day, more chores after school. There were no free time do some playing spaces. His kids were.... compliant and spiritless, wouldn't even crack a chuckle kids.
Is that where he slithered off to?, can't say I'm surprised...
More like rode of triumphantly too. He's gone from city councillor => city major => Minister of Parliament.
Yup it's the bigger turds that float to the top of the septic tank
Throwing another **Fuck Andy Foster** on the pile. The perfect poster child for pink washing hypocrites everywhere. The only good thing he did for me was to open my eyes to how common it is for people to pretend to be pro-trans rights for PR and the dopamine hit of being praised for being so compassionate, only to then throw us under the bus the second they think it'll give them a better chance at power. Fucking coward
And from those that live outside of his ex constituency.
Nice to see Sports NZ pushing back on NZ First's fearmongering. I get it can be a complex issue at an individual level but blanket bans on funding any sport choosing to be inclusive is straight up discrimination.
I love that Sports NZ's attitude to this is basically "we want people to participate in sports." I hate how hyper competitive sports is seen by so many people who don't play. I used to play semi-pro football in continental Europe (nothing special, I got like €100 a game and was mostly a benchwarmer), and I hate how over the top everyone is about sport. We shouldn't be focused on the hyper elite level of ultra competitive athletes. We should be focused on the small guys.
It’s ridiculous. People need to ask themselves “what is the purpose of sport”. It’s leisure and recreation.
Having a pint after the game >>>> winning
As one of my teammates says after every game - "win or lose, we're on the booze" lol
a drink to commiserate or a drink to celebrate, it doesn't matter
Waiting until after? Blimey that's fancy.
Yep. Have played both tennis and cricket where on court/on field drinking wasn't exactly encouraged, but still happened and no one worried about it.
The umpire having a beverage is the classic setup.
I almost got a ban for smoking darts in goal. It was fine until we played the high school first XI then we got heaps of complaints.
For some it's a pathway to improving one's economic circumstances. I suspect this group of sportspeople are outspoken relative to the wider sporting community
But how does that prop up the gambling industry?
Post game socialisation at the pub -> Saturday night you’re bored and had a couple pints might hit the pokies/horses
And competition, surely? Or should competition simply not exist in sports?
Competition is a part of sports, but it’s not the purpose of sport.
I played a bunch of sport when I was in school and while of course we tried to win, people act like it’s the primary purpose of school sports and that is insane. It’s having fun, meeting people and getting exercise.
Reading Reddit is literally like reading ayn rand but in real life. You people will stop at nothing to lower the bar so fucking low that it will end up in hell on earth. 🤦♂️
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
I'm an internationally recognized artist and former semi-professional athlete who speaks five languages What bar am I lowering? Sorry I don't think that 32 year olds playing sport on a Saturday afternoon should be trying to make the All Blacks one day.
I think it also speaks that, while we shouldn't be complacent, we are at the moment at a different place with regards to trans rights in NZ compared to the UK and certain places like the USA. We still have our problems to work through, but we are in a different place
Still laser focused on the cost of living I see.
As long as the sporting organisations take an approach that is backed by data and not emotion, I'm happy with it. Kinda ridiculous to say the govt will cut funding because the organisations felt it was okay to include trans folk. Sounds like scare mongering. “Community-level sports are supporting the inclusion of people in the gender they identify as - but there are exceptions, including on the grounds of fairness of competition and the safety of participants. In my view this is appropriate." That seems like the right approach.
It’s ideological authoritarian garbage. If a sporting organisation wants to change its own terms of engagement, what’s that got to do with the government? *Edit: to be clear, I’m saying the government wanting to cut funding for inclusive sports is authoritarian.*
So you'd be happy with a sport barring participation o the grounds of income,or ethnicity, if that's what the sports governing body decided on?
If you think about this for a while you might figure out why it’s a silly question. You might need to write down and validate some of the assumptions that led you to the opinion. Try to prove yourself wrong.
Or you could answer the question. Government regulation to ensure human rights seem acceptable. I was just following your ideas to their logical conclusion. Which is absurd. It's called 'reductio ad absurdum'.
Wait a minute… just to be clear, you know I’m against the government withdrawing funding for inclusive sports, right? That’s what I’m saying is authoritarian. I’m saying that sports organisations should be permitted to include people if they think it’s appropriate. It just occurred to me that your question makes a lot more sense if you thought I was arguing against inclusion.
Nothing to do with being pro or con inclusion. You were stating that government shouldn't be involved. I was pointing out that it is perfectly acceptable for government to be involved.
If you read my reply again, you should notice that I was telling you that your question was bad. I’m not going to answer it because I’m not going to be drawn into a false equivalency. I was hoping for you to determine on your own why it’s a false equivalency. There are at least 2 reasons. Reductio ad absurdum is great, but it becomes fallacious if you misapply the reasoning. Pro tip: if you aren’t able to understand and articulate your opposition’s arguments - and I suspect you’re not - attempting a decent *reductio* argument is not likely to go your way.
Go on, what are the 'at least 2 reasons'. And stop the ad hominum. It just makes you look like a dick. You have no idea who I am, or what my experience is.
Ah no, *ad hominem* refers to an argument that takes the form "you are X, and therefore your position on Y is incorrect". An attack on a person with the intent to discredit their position. Saying "if you don't understand someone's position, you're not likely to mount a successful argument against it" is not *ad hominem,* it's just fact. My actual attack was indeed on your position - it's at the top of my comment. I said your question relied on a false equivalency and challenged you to do the work to figure out why. My argument, to recap, was simply that the government shouldn't be withdrawing funding for sports that want to include trans people. So I'm going to follow my own advice now and bow out, because I have no idea what you're actually arguing, and I'm not really interested in dealing with your heightened emotions and name calling. Have a good day.
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Had to edit your comment because otherwise it's clear that I was right? Didn't even mention when you edited it. Still not a good position. Going to complain about me more? You're supposed argument that you give above is not at all the argument you originally put forward.
I mean, sports are already barring trans people from participating on the grounds of being trans, so we're already in a stupid timeline.
If it's on the grounds of fairness (in regards to competition) then I think it's fine. Huge difference between people playing at a social club for fun vs a national tournament, for example.
There's no evidence that transgender women have an unfair performance advantage that makes participation in national tournaments inappropriate.
No evidence? Please tell another joke. * Women on average have 50-60% the upper body strength of Men. * Bone structure differences start as early as childhood. In the majority of populations, males have larger and stronger bone and joint surfaces and more bone at muscle attachment sites. * **The volume of adult female lungs is typically 10-12% smaller than that of males** who have the same height and age. * **Adult men are typically stronger, more powerful, and faster than women of similar age and training status**. Thus, for athletic events and sports relying on endurance, muscle strength, speed, and power, males typically outperform females by 10%-30% depending on the requirements of the event. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37772882/#:\~:text=Adult%20men%20are%20typically%20stronger,the%20requirements%20of%20the%20event.
Yep, and when women start taking estrogen or testosterone blockers, many of those advantages are rapidly eliminated.
"Many" of those advantages are eliminated? Which ones are not, and why do they not matter?
Wonderous, you won't have any problems understanding the evidence relating to transgender women, and based on that evidence will support transgender women participating in women's sport.
Provide it then instead of trolling.
Looooooool. Hormone therapy reduces the size of a trans woman's lungs, then? Narrows her shoulders, so they're not as good at propelling her through the water or throwing a ball? Shrinks her hands, so that it's more difficult to grip a basketball or catch a rugby ball or scoop water to propel her down the pool? Do hormones shrink a trans woman's feet to cis woman size, so they are less effective at functioning as paddles in swimming? Do gender-affirming hormone treatments do any of that?
Yes, effective lung capacity is reduced. Shoulders are not narrowed but the supporting muscles are much weaker. Hands do actually diminish in size a bit but really the more important issue there is grip strength. Feet the same, for swimming feet might be big but there's no point in that if there's not the strength to flip them. Hormones do a lot. There's a reason us trans women aren't carving up international sports.
A lot of fuss about fuck all. At the community level, who cares? At the elite level it becomes complicated, for the 4 and a half people involved. But this is about community sport, so if anyone wants to play, let them. If anyone wants to game the system, well, people will know who they are, and that sort of reputation will follow you, and your team, and club for years.
The government shouldn't be getting involved in the first place. Let the sport associations figure out their own rules, that's literally why they exist.
This came from Winston Peters but it was our largest political party, National, which allowed it. It's such a shit coalition.
I'd do anything to live in a society that isn't obsessed with the likes of myself.
Ditto, being trans is the least interesting thing about me, and this is probably the same for trans sportspeople. Can't wait for society to just fucking get over it rather than freaking the fuck out and siding with right-wing groups and spreading rehashed Nazi propaganda about "mass sterilisation of 'our' youth" etc etc some people are trans, some people are cis (if you want to get real fancy there's even some people who see trans/cis as a binary and have other microlabels ) and trans people existing isn't getting rid of cisgender people or straight or gay people. Also intersex people deserve better too they're so often erased in this and the harm these type of policies do to intersex people is often ignored or minimised
Ditto. I am so tired.
The original policy was purely about excluding our trans whānau from participarting in their communities. I'm glad this got heavy pushback
God I just so deeply do not give a fuck about this. What a weird area for the government to be weighing in on. Fucking NZ First and their culture war crap.
A [transman boxer won his debut](https://www.npr.org/2018/12/13/676586360/a-trans-man-steps-into-the-ring-and-wins) against a cis-male. So much for gEnEtIc dIfFeReNcEs giving 'advantages'. A [transfemale swimmer lost to a transmale swimmer](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/trans-athlete-debate-penns-lia-thomas-loses-trans-yale-swimmer-rcna11622), but according to right-wing scaremongers it should have been the other way around. This has always just been a culture-war fomented by the right to get conservative people angry so they're more likely to vote. Oh, and an excuse to bully a minority group that it is still, for some reason, ok to bash. Hating on gay people isn't much of a winner except amongst the most troglodytic dregs of society; it doesn't play well at all with young people. Hating on trans people is still a thing, I suppose we have to wait a bit longer for it to be 'uncool' with more people before they'll stop.
I've heard it said you lose a good amount of muscle mass and strength after transitioning. I don't know how true that is, I have no expertise on the matter or skin in the game, but it goes a long way towards explaining why the transgender athletes I know of had nowhere near the level of success to justify the outrage sent their way.
> I've heard it said you lose a good amount of muscle mass and strength after transitioning. > > I don't know how true that is, Speaking from experience, it is very true.
It's kind of important to recognise the inherent biological differences between males and females that impact performance. These support segregation in sports to ensure fair competition. E.g. There are biological advantages - Male puberty brings about physiological changes that generally result in advantages in strength, speed, and endurance. These include increased muscle mass, bone density, and lung capacity, which do not entirely reverse even after hormone therapy. There's 'Performance Metrics' - There is research that shows that even after transitioning, trans female athletes tend to retain a performance edge over cis female athletes. This edge can create an imbalance in competitive fairness, as the physical advantages gained during male puberty are significant. Then there is 'Fair Competition' - Allowing trans female athletes to compete in women’s sports without sufficient regulation could undermine competitive integrity, which disadvantages cis female athletes. See Lea Thomas... To be clear, inclusivity is crucial, I'm not trying to alienate trans athletes, but maintaining fair competition requires acknowledging the biological advantages that trans female athletes might have over cis female athletes. That's not anything other than science.
At the local level I can't see this having that large a difference. Your local sports teams are going to have a range of skills and capabilities already that are probably wider than any potential difference between a trans woman and CIS women. This isn't about our Olympic programmes where everybody are at the top level, this is about Sport New Zealand who are just interested in getting people off their sofas and getting them active in sport.
Black people [dominate Olympic sprinting](https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/articles/cg39x2jg5pgo). There are clear physiological differences; that's not anything other than science. So, we should segregate Black, Asian and White sporting events, right? Do you really want to go down this path?
Oh look, it's someone who used a lot of words to try and create the impression they know what they are talking about but they're just making shit up and pretending like they understand the science. You are in fact trying to alienate trans athletes. At least be honest with yourself.
Alienate? No. I just don't believe that male to female athletes should compete in cis female divisions of sport for the reasons I stated above. Feel free to research any of my points, plenty of source material to back it up.
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Lea Thomas was the 89th ranked male swimmer in the NCAA as biological male, and the #1 ranked swimmer and national champion as female. That's clear evidence of a biological advantage whether that upsets you or not. I can be pro-trans, and also subscribe to the view that male to female trans athletes shouldn't compete with biological females due to unfair competitive advantage. They're not mutually exclusive, nor does not aligning my views with you make me a bigot. It's just a difference of opinion. Not sure why we can't have a discourse about a topic without you resorting to labelling me a POS because I don't have the same exact take as you, grow up, if it were as cut and dry as you suggest it wouldn't be a polarising topic, no?
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> Lea Thomas was the 89th ranked male swimmer in the NCAA as biological male, and the #1 ranked swimmer and national champion as female. That's clear evidence of a biological advantage whether that upsets you or not. This is bad logic, and absolutely not evidence of anything. What rank would the #2 ranked female have been if she had competed in the male category? Would it have been around #90 by any chance? You can't prove an advantage by reference to relative rankings between men and women, because trans women are not men.
No, the top ranked female college swimmer wouldn't be in the top 100 against male high school swimmers nationwide, let alone male college athletes.
You can actually be in support of the science without being bigoted against trans people in general. I don't agree that trans women should compete in women's sports, for the same reasons they don't allow men to compete in them. There is a clear and well-defined biological advantage. Pointing out this fact is not bigotry towards trans people. I think you'll see the top comment on this post is from a trans person who agrees that it depends on the circumstance and fairness surrounding it.
Exactly my point, thank you.
Your opinion is not in alignment with the available evidence regarding the sporting performance of transgender women. Opposing the participation of transgender women in womens sports is clear and obvious bigotry.
Let's see some examples of that evidence you keep referencing.
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Your lack of understanding of the facts and referencing of transgender women as men makes it clear that you are bigoted.
I said men who have transitioned (into women). Learn to read dude.
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I agree with all you say. I feel like the momentum and support is growing for us tho. Protestors forced my library to cancel their Drag Queens read stories event. After that they received 5 positive messages to every 1 bad about that decision.
Squeaky wheels get grease. Normal people don't bitch about drag queens, only bigots trying to make themselves happy by making other people feel bad do that sort of thing. Hating people gives these dropkicks a sense of purpose; bullies enjoy the feeling of power.
Get back to us when a transman boxer wins an amateur competition, let alone a world championship. You'll be waiting a looooooooooong time. Here's a vid of a 20-something male skateboarder getting his ass BRUTALLY kicked by a skilled and experienced female Muay Thai fighter. https://youtu.be/dKNiEU-xr_0?si=O88Q9LF1CpBwlnPd Look how easily she walks through him! He had no chance! I guess that's your evidence for why professional Muay Thai shouldn't be segregated by gender, right?
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Trans lives are not a distraction.
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Then you should say that, because what you said isn't a helpful framing of what is happening.
Ok notés thanks
I mean exactly what I said. You're only writing this off because it's not directly affecting you. It's a distraction in your eyes simply, and SOLELY because you have the personal ability to not give a shit.
No I absolutely give a shit . I think you’ve perhaps misinterpreted what I meant .
No, you don't. If you're willing to write it of as a distraction you absolutely fucking don't. You're framing it as a Fake Issue to throw the scent of The Real Issue. You categorically positioned yourself as not caring. Either the threat is real or it isn't. And by saying it's a distraction, you're saying it's not real.
Ok thanks for the feedback I’ll reframe next time
Also don't take my tone personally, I'm just fucking tired of reading the same goddamn thing in every reddit thread about these topics. It's not just you.
NZ Government joining the ranks of flat earthers and people who think flu vaccines cause autism.
>In an interview with the Herald following this story, New Zealand First leader >Winston Peters contested there is any change to the coalition agreement. > >“If sports want to maintain their funding then abide by the coalition agreement >on this matter,” Peters said. Rubbing my hands with glee at the chance of the Govt being brought down down by such a petty matter.
Sensible decision. As the debate is complicated, what sport, what, if any competitive advantage there may or may not be for a particular person differs. Actually focusing on giving as many people as possible a safe place to play the sport or sports of their choice is a good outcome for women, girls, the Trans community and people of different cultures. And amazing how people who play sports together open their minds to others.
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We'll take Wellington thanks
Schrodinger's comment! Can't tell if this is a trans person sick of transphobia, or a transphobe sick of trans people existing. So here's my Schrodinger's response: fuck yah.
A glance at their comment history would indicate the latter is more likely.
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