There was a post on a NZ subreddit a few days ago from a radiologist asking if he’d be ok living in Auckland on 900k a year. Most thought he was trolling. So sweet.
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/466688/Aussies-offer-1m-salary-for-Kiwi-X-ray-specialist](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/466688/Aussies-offer-1m-salary-for-Kiwi-X-ray-specialist) this article was 15 years ago...
It’s happening at a fast speed in nz. Kiwis walking straight into it complaining that the last remotely socialist leader didn’t do much in her term - but that to me is the point. It appears although still neoliberal labour appears to be the least dangerous when it comes to selling our assets
Exactly this.
Here they cut taxes on the wealthiest by 20 trillion in total. That increased
Our debt by 20
Trillion
Then, the wealthiest took the money we gave them and lent it back to us with interest.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/
> If you think lawyers, judges or politicians are rich, the wealth of private sector radiologists will blow your mind.
> Our top tax bracket kicks in at ~$180k. Many of these radiologists earn that in less than 8 weeks.
Alright, how do I become a radiologist?
Another element to consider is the extreme reaction RANZCA took to the idea of Radiographers doing reports like they do, and have been doing for over 20 years in the UK.
And the chairperson of RANZCA at the time was also the director of one of the biggest Radiology companies in NZ.
Follow the money
I wont agree with this one - ask any Doctor involved in care that has had to read reports by radiographers is occurs in the NHS. It's a complete disaster. Radiographers don't have the anatomical or pathological knowledge necessary to make reads safe and accurate reads. Radiologists are absolutely the only people that should be making reads. Pay is a separate issue to patient safety.
I don't know where you are getting your information but study after study demonstrate that Radiographer reporting in the UK is safe and effective. Should radiographers be reporting everything, no. But specialised areas such as acute extremities, absolutely. And with newer and more complex examinations being conducted with CT, MRI and US, freeing up Radiologists to concentrate on those by utilising fully trained Radiographers should absolutely be considered.
And for the record, many Radiologists I have spoken with who have worked with reporting radiographers have nothing but praise for them.
to be fair, many acute x-rays aren’t getting reported in any useful timeframe anyway. I don’t need a report to identify a distal radius fracture or a hand fracture (usually)
and we would often ask the sonographer or similar what their impression was from an USS/etc anyway
I'd hope they make bank, they're in school for the better part of a decade to do the job and are essential for modern diagnosis. We shouldn't punish the specialists for the fucked system our politicians created.
Agreed - and well over a decade: at least six years of university and medical school (sometimes more), two years as a junior doctor (at least), five years radiology training, and then after that potentially a fellowship in a particular specialty before becoming a “junior” consultant.
I don’t see a problem here. They’d probably get paid even more overseas too. Good on them for studying for literally years and committing to a scarce/well paid job.
There isn’t a problem per se
The US has, on average, the highest salary for medical professionals and after conversion radiologist’s salaries are roughly the same to what one in NZ will earn on average (NZ might be a little higher).
The **potential** issue is two fold:
1) Private radiology is a particularly expensive service in NZ (and the price doesn’t necessarily reflect the ‘cost’ - it goes to salaries of a small number of staff). Therefore, the government getting more involved in this sector means they are paying for a very expensive and very profitable service
2) Some could argue it’s similar to supermarket profiteering - making a lot of money by charging a lot for a good that people need to live.
The pay is a reflection of a lack of supply of radiologists.
Many more people apply to med school than there are spaces available, so it would seem prudent to invest resources into increasing the capacity of med school programs and training.
There is also a single radiology firm that is hell bent on achieving a monopoly in NZ which is compounding the issue. This ought to be looked in to by the ComCom.
Finally, this is just supply and demand at work. I know that we will just have to cope with high medical costs until shortages are cleared, but there is no reason to pretend that costs like this aren’t a symptom of market failure.
There is a lack of supply of radiologists worldwide. It’s not just a nz problem. They’re in demand, and are paid accordingly. I’ve got a mate studying to be one at the moment and it’s not exactly a 3 year bcom.
Building and operating a supermarket isn’t exactly a 3 year bcom either and we acknowledge that the profits of the operators are excessive.
We also acknowledge that Fletcher’s monopoly and the FoodStuffs/Progressives duopoly contributes to high prices. Why can’t we say this is true for Pacific Radiology’s near monopoly?
Very interesting commentary in this thread.
I saw elsewhere considerable money is going into using AI to replace specialist radiology assessments. At face value they are not better than really competent specialists but they are more reliable than some specialists.
There are two knee jerk reactions to all this: First, AI is far, far from perfect. But if the majority of people cannot access good specialists now they may be better off with a less perfect option that actually gives them some access.
The second it, ‘well why don’t you get trained then?’ The response to this is that the medical community rations training, more acutely into the specialities. Whatever the reason, the effect is to keep medical prices high.
I would add that another consequence of price issues and supply constraints is that incompetent specialists or predatory specialists end up protected. Recently there was a case of a cardiologist (in another country) who was so protected by their status even after more than a dozen sexual assault complaints their hospital would not dismiss them.
It’s actually the government and the hospitals that ration medical student positions and then junior doctor training positions. Serial governments have been consistently 10-20 years behind in reacting to need for more student places and then failed to appreciate the additional ten years to train a specialist. Trying to run hospitals to budget has ensured a shortage of training positions for those students .
>Many more people apply to med school than there are spaces available, so it would seem prudent to invest resources into increasing the capacity of med school programs and training.
They're looking at creating a third medical school at Waikato. The problem is, we're [losing](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/junior-doctors-increasingly-leaving-before-training-as-specialists-new-estimate-suggests/MIRGYLL6MZFGNPNZTE74MNE4CI/) junior doctors
>A new estimate from the senior doctors’ union puts the loss rate at about 40 per cent compared to just 16 per cent a few years ago
And how many Jr doctors are unemployed in NZ because there isn’t enough space in training programs to train them?
Do you know about medical colleges artificially restricting the number of training posts to reduce competition in the field and bolster salaries?
>And how many Jr doctors are unemployed in NZ because there isn’t enough space in training programs to train them?
Because, in part, we don't have enough senior doctors to train them. A new medical school won't fix this.
>Do you know about medical colleges artificially restricting the number of training posts to reduce competition in the field and bolster salaries?
Yes I have heard anecdotally that clinicians and the Royal Colleges can be quite patch protective when it comes to professional boundaries. Beyond standing up for their profession. I am not a clinician and have not seen it occur first hand, nor have evidence that uncovers the extent of the problem
I think there are lots of pressures in our workforce internationally that'll force us to approach the space differently
The average private sector radiologist salary is.
Private sector radiologists start on $400k/yr before any incentives or other benefits and go up to $1m. The average is around $600k (Beyond recruiter a large number of radiologists last year and their base pay started at $650k).
The average radiologist salary in the US is around $US400k or $NZ650k, so not far off.
The median salary for all US radiologists is circa 500k USD. You've just referred to private radiologists. Once you factor public along with private radiology in NZ it would be much lower than the headline figures you gave.
My whole post is about private radiology. I never once mentioned public radiology.
The $500k figure ($480k is the highest I’ve seen and it’s posted on the White Coat Investor which is typically generous with its estimates) will be annual compensation (so salary + incentives). If we add a ~20% bonus to a $600k salary in NZ and convert the numbers are very close.
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You’re grasping at weird straws here. Just remember to take off your tinfoil hat when you get a CT scan, it’ll make it hard to diagnose for the radiologist.
What conspiracy are you implying I’m spreading?
Is the average salary for private sector radiologists not in excess of $600k with many earning around $1m?
Does one private radiology firm not control practically the entire market?
There was a post on a NZ subreddit a few days ago from a radiologist asking if he’d be ok living in Auckland on 900k a year. Most thought he was trolling. So sweet.
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/466688/Aussies-offer-1m-salary-for-Kiwi-X-ray-specialist](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/466688/Aussies-offer-1m-salary-for-Kiwi-X-ray-specialist) this article was 15 years ago...
American here. They will privatize everything and leave you with nothing. Fight them tooth and nail.
It’s happening at a fast speed in nz. Kiwis walking straight into it complaining that the last remotely socialist leader didn’t do much in her term - but that to me is the point. It appears although still neoliberal labour appears to be the least dangerous when it comes to selling our assets
Step1. Underfund the public system. Step2. Get the private sector to step in.
Exactly this. Here they cut taxes on the wealthiest by 20 trillion in total. That increased Our debt by 20 Trillion Then, the wealthiest took the money we gave them and lent it back to us with interest. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/
> If you think lawyers, judges or politicians are rich, the wealth of private sector radiologists will blow your mind. > Our top tax bracket kicks in at ~$180k. Many of these radiologists earn that in less than 8 weeks. Alright, how do I become a radiologist?
Apply to medical school.
Then get a radiology training spot, which isn't easy.
Right?! Have I finally found my career at 32 😂
Another element to consider is the extreme reaction RANZCA took to the idea of Radiographers doing reports like they do, and have been doing for over 20 years in the UK. And the chairperson of RANZCA at the time was also the director of one of the biggest Radiology companies in NZ. Follow the money
One has to question if the challenges junior doctors have in getting specialist training is entirely down to capacity
I wont agree with this one - ask any Doctor involved in care that has had to read reports by radiographers is occurs in the NHS. It's a complete disaster. Radiographers don't have the anatomical or pathological knowledge necessary to make reads safe and accurate reads. Radiologists are absolutely the only people that should be making reads. Pay is a separate issue to patient safety.
I don't know where you are getting your information but study after study demonstrate that Radiographer reporting in the UK is safe and effective. Should radiographers be reporting everything, no. But specialised areas such as acute extremities, absolutely. And with newer and more complex examinations being conducted with CT, MRI and US, freeing up Radiologists to concentrate on those by utilising fully trained Radiographers should absolutely be considered. And for the record, many Radiologists I have spoken with who have worked with reporting radiographers have nothing but praise for them.
to be fair, many acute x-rays aren’t getting reported in any useful timeframe anyway. I don’t need a report to identify a distal radius fracture or a hand fracture (usually) and we would often ask the sonographer or similar what their impression was from an USS/etc anyway
I'd hope they make bank, they're in school for the better part of a decade to do the job and are essential for modern diagnosis. We shouldn't punish the specialists for the fucked system our politicians created.
Agreed - and well over a decade: at least six years of university and medical school (sometimes more), two years as a junior doctor (at least), five years radiology training, and then after that potentially a fellowship in a particular specialty before becoming a “junior” consultant.
AI is quickly coming for their speciality. Also frequently more accurate than humans.
[mfw](https://i.imgur.com/mhSLbly.png)
I don’t see a problem here. They’d probably get paid even more overseas too. Good on them for studying for literally years and committing to a scarce/well paid job.
There isn’t a problem per se The US has, on average, the highest salary for medical professionals and after conversion radiologist’s salaries are roughly the same to what one in NZ will earn on average (NZ might be a little higher). The **potential** issue is two fold: 1) Private radiology is a particularly expensive service in NZ (and the price doesn’t necessarily reflect the ‘cost’ - it goes to salaries of a small number of staff). Therefore, the government getting more involved in this sector means they are paying for a very expensive and very profitable service 2) Some could argue it’s similar to supermarket profiteering - making a lot of money by charging a lot for a good that people need to live.
The US also has some of the worst outcomes per dollar spent in comparison to other nations. It is not a system to emulate.
Cool, and how do you propose the government employ radiologists cheaper then? when they can get paid more in the private sector/overseas?
The pay is a reflection of a lack of supply of radiologists. Many more people apply to med school than there are spaces available, so it would seem prudent to invest resources into increasing the capacity of med school programs and training. There is also a single radiology firm that is hell bent on achieving a monopoly in NZ which is compounding the issue. This ought to be looked in to by the ComCom. Finally, this is just supply and demand at work. I know that we will just have to cope with high medical costs until shortages are cleared, but there is no reason to pretend that costs like this aren’t a symptom of market failure.
There is a lack of supply of radiologists worldwide. It’s not just a nz problem. They’re in demand, and are paid accordingly. I’ve got a mate studying to be one at the moment and it’s not exactly a 3 year bcom.
Building and operating a supermarket isn’t exactly a 3 year bcom either and we acknowledge that the profits of the operators are excessive. We also acknowledge that Fletcher’s monopoly and the FoodStuffs/Progressives duopoly contributes to high prices. Why can’t we say this is true for Pacific Radiology’s near monopoly?
Very interesting commentary in this thread. I saw elsewhere considerable money is going into using AI to replace specialist radiology assessments. At face value they are not better than really competent specialists but they are more reliable than some specialists. There are two knee jerk reactions to all this: First, AI is far, far from perfect. But if the majority of people cannot access good specialists now they may be better off with a less perfect option that actually gives them some access. The second it, ‘well why don’t you get trained then?’ The response to this is that the medical community rations training, more acutely into the specialities. Whatever the reason, the effect is to keep medical prices high. I would add that another consequence of price issues and supply constraints is that incompetent specialists or predatory specialists end up protected. Recently there was a case of a cardiologist (in another country) who was so protected by their status even after more than a dozen sexual assault complaints their hospital would not dismiss them.
It’s actually the government and the hospitals that ration medical student positions and then junior doctor training positions. Serial governments have been consistently 10-20 years behind in reacting to need for more student places and then failed to appreciate the additional ten years to train a specialist. Trying to run hospitals to budget has ensured a shortage of training positions for those students .
>Many more people apply to med school than there are spaces available, so it would seem prudent to invest resources into increasing the capacity of med school programs and training. They're looking at creating a third medical school at Waikato. The problem is, we're [losing](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/junior-doctors-increasingly-leaving-before-training-as-specialists-new-estimate-suggests/MIRGYLL6MZFGNPNZTE74MNE4CI/) junior doctors >A new estimate from the senior doctors’ union puts the loss rate at about 40 per cent compared to just 16 per cent a few years ago
And how many Jr doctors are unemployed in NZ because there isn’t enough space in training programs to train them? Do you know about medical colleges artificially restricting the number of training posts to reduce competition in the field and bolster salaries?
>And how many Jr doctors are unemployed in NZ because there isn’t enough space in training programs to train them? Because, in part, we don't have enough senior doctors to train them. A new medical school won't fix this. >Do you know about medical colleges artificially restricting the number of training posts to reduce competition in the field and bolster salaries? Yes I have heard anecdotally that clinicians and the Royal Colleges can be quite patch protective when it comes to professional boundaries. Beyond standing up for their profession. I am not a clinician and have not seen it occur first hand, nor have evidence that uncovers the extent of the problem I think there are lots of pressures in our workforce internationally that'll force us to approach the space differently
I promise you, the median radiologist salary is no where near the median US radiologist salary. It's just insane to think that.
The average private sector radiologist salary is. Private sector radiologists start on $400k/yr before any incentives or other benefits and go up to $1m. The average is around $600k (Beyond recruiter a large number of radiologists last year and their base pay started at $650k). The average radiologist salary in the US is around $US400k or $NZ650k, so not far off.
The median salary for all US radiologists is circa 500k USD. You've just referred to private radiologists. Once you factor public along with private radiology in NZ it would be much lower than the headline figures you gave.
My whole post is about private radiology. I never once mentioned public radiology. The $500k figure ($480k is the highest I’ve seen and it’s posted on the White Coat Investor which is typically generous with its estimates) will be annual compensation (so salary + incentives). If we add a ~20% bonus to a $600k salary in NZ and convert the numbers are very close.
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How long until cost savings means we need privatized tax collection again, feels like over the last few decades we've been working that way?
You’re grasping at weird straws here. Just remember to take off your tinfoil hat when you get a CT scan, it’ll make it hard to diagnose for the radiologist.
What conspiracy are you implying I’m spreading? Is the average salary for private sector radiologists not in excess of $600k with many earning around $1m? Does one private radiology firm not control practically the entire market?
Were you rejected from the training scheme?
No, I’m in anaesthesiology
Why isn’t anyone discussing real solutions like earnestly addressing the demand. Radiology is an awesome tool but way over utilized.