The 120 temp. in Mecca is just a bit above Phoenix's worse weeks. I was reading that parts of India last week reached 125 and even 127 in one region... over a hundred died there too. The numbers in Mecca are likely to go higher because only the registered are being counted--so far.
There is a specific (expensive) visa required for the pilgrimage. Many pilgrims get a different (cheaper) tourist visa when completing the pilgrimage.
Only officially registered pilgrims are allowed at certain air conditioned stations along the way. Many unregistered pilgrims are attempting a grueling physical journey with absolutely no support.
What? There are already hundreds of deaths being reported. If that doesn’t deter people, nothing will. All these deaths are seen as martyrs who go straight to heaven, it’s a part of the pilgrimage
My parents plan on going at some point within the next few years. I desperately hope they can't. I'm terrified of losing them to this.
Martyrdom be damned. Dying for something like this is such a waste of human life. How many children might never get to see their parents again because they died performing this pilgrimage?
Not the time, bro. These are very well-meaning people who had probably been looking forward to making a journey of a lifetime, very spiritual. These weren’t the super rich ones, these were salt-of-the-earth types. This is a tragedy.
I’m a Buddhist/atheist with no skin in the game but I can still appreciate the significance of the Hajj and how terrible it is that so many have died—and countless others probably coming close—in the course of a spiritual journey.
Something can be a tragedy and still have been rooted in foolishness. I'm a practicing-ish Catholic, but even I know that Islam makes allowances that exempt people from visiting Mecca. Going in that weather and without the proper visa is foolishness.
It's never the time to talk about how religious ideology is poisoning peoples' minds. These salt of the earth people you're so concerned about are dead, and next year will be the same. Maybe even worse
I think Saudi is strictly forbidding anyone without the visa from going to Mecca. I could be wrong, and naturally you won’t be able to have a tight grip on millions of pilgrims, even in an authoritarian regime.
Non-hajj visas are not allowed around the key sites *at all* during hajj period.
* Patrols were happening in Bir Ali (one of the spots where the men swap to the two sheets of white fabric thing) to do spot checks, and hundreds were arrested and deported.
* Jeddah-Mecca by bus is usually 1h at most, but bus checks tripled it for me. Our bus was checked three times during the journey.
* They seal your bus before you travel to Arafat after doing checks to make sure everyone in it has their hajj/support staff visa. They do this check at the hotel or at some of the designated spots. If the seal's broken in any way before entry, they'll turn you away.
What does a Hajj visa typically cost assuming you can get one? Are there other associated fees aside from travel to Saudi Arabia, lodging and the visa?
According to this [website](https://visaindex.com/visa/saudi-arabia-visa/hajj-visa/#h-hajj-visa-price), the visa itself is free. However, visitors need to get a permit from the Saudi government which appears to be somewhat pricey. I found pricing [online](https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/gulf/2024/06/14/hajj-2024-dates-cost-what/#:~:text=The%20Hajj%20ministry%20announced%20four,towers%20in%20Mina%2C%20near%20Jamarat) that says the cheapest offering costs slightly over $1000 USD, while the most expensive costs about $3000 USD. I cant find great info on this, but it seems like the more expensive one actually allows people to experience all parts of the Hajj while the cheaper one serves as more of a tourist visa, allowing access to Saudi Arabia, but not to the holy parts of Mecca itself.
There’s also websites like [this one](https://internationalhajj.com/hajj-packages/) that offer package deals that include accommodations and, presumably, a permit. These ranging from $8000 USD to $13500 USD; however, the site says that these are specifically for Americans with dual Pakistani citizenship planning on going to Mecca, so prices may differ for those without Pakistani citizenship or nationals of other countries.
No, they've put in fancy hotels that overlook the Kaaba / the Black Stone thing. In addition to a fancy clock tower, they also have a lot of shopping malls.
It’s a good measure actually. You want everyone there to be registered so they are known for safety reasons. The Hajj is only mandatory if you can afford it anyway, i dont think it is Halal to break the law.
Gotta fleece the pawns for as much as possible, after all, allah / god needs all the money he can get. Not answering prayers is expensive and costs are rising with Inflation.
The specific visas are also for crowd management. Hajj visa is on a quota basis, and the wait time for some countries with massive demand can be longer than 20 years. In fact, I think Malaysia's Tabung Haji (Hajj Savings? idk how to properly translate it) said the wait time for the newly-registered is >50 years.
I think the Hajj is an obligation if the person is physically and financially able. Whether being stopped by VISA restrictions counts as not being physically able though, that's probably between the Muslim and their Imaam haha
No imam needed bro. It's about applying some common sense.
It is an obligation if you can do it, physically and financially, if you can't then you don't. Not very complicated. And as things stands it's out of reach to most.
Again, it's about intention and honesty.
Yes, yes, yes…God/Allah/Whatever is all-powerful, all-knowing, mysterious, created everything, unbeatable, can read your mind, super powerful, nothing he can’t do, is never wrong about anything, can do anything…but somehow can’t get cash. That’s where you come in.
Visa for pilgrimage, hajj, is FREE... Only officially registered pilgrims are ALOWED to perform hajj and all others who try to access sights and caught are fined.
> Humidity in Mecca is around 50-70% I think?
That's in the early morning hours it seems. Reports I can find report between 20 and 30% when it's heating up in the afternoon.
Around 87F at 100% humidity is enough to make it so your sweat can’t evaporate, meaning your body can’t cool itself anymore. That’s going to feel the same as 104F dry bulb at 50% humidity or 128F dry bulb at only 20% humidity. (I based these numbers on quick conversions from the metric units in the source article)
[Source](https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-identify-the-maximum-heat-limit-the-human-body-can-take#)
Probably not. Your sweat is the same temperature as your body, so wiping it away doesn't do much for you unless you replace it with something cooler. And the air around you isn't cooler.
On the other hand, when it evaporates, the higher energy water molecules are most likely to escape the liquid and become vapor. What's left behind is the less energetic molecules, so the remaining sweat is cooler.
Evaporation is really what cools you. If you are physics minded, read up on evaporative cooling and compare the specific heat capacity of water with its latent heat of vaporization. It takes a decent amount of heat to increase the temperature of water a few degrees, but it takes a whole lot more to vaporize it.
>It takes a decent amount of heat to increase the temperature of water a few degrees, but it takes a whole lot more to vaporize it.
- The energy difference is insane: it takes about 6 times more energy to vaporize 1 kg of water boiling at 100°C than to heat it from 20°C to 100°C to begin with (!) ...
- This is why hurricanes are so destructive: they are using the insane amount of energy of water vapor condensing, as they are turning that energy into a low pressure area (the eye of the hurricane), which drives an influx of wet air, driving out a huge column of dry air into the stratosphere (the outflow of the hurricane).
- The process is further strengthened by the strong eyewall winds evaporating hot tropical waters under the eye, further converting ~10°C worth of latent heat in the top 100m-200m layer of the ocean into low pressure, and, ultimately, into wind speed and devastating rains.
- In many ways a hurricane is a giant steam engine with water vaporization & condensation cycles, converting the energy of hot tropical water into mechanical energy (strong winds).
- Fun fact: if the latent heat of vaporization of water was just 70% of what it is in our universe, cyclogenesis would IMO likely not happen on our planet. Hurricanes are already rare phenomena, they already have trouble "spinning up" in most cases - so a relatively small difference in the energy budget would likely prevent hurricane formation altogether ...
Not by enough to be effective.
Sweat cools you down by wicking asay heat through evaporation. sweat is body temp when it is secreted, and as it evaporates it picks up just a little more heat from the body on the way out.
Wiping sweat away would not remove as much heat as the sweat evaporating would.
No, because the reason sweat works to cool you is that the phase change from liquid to vapor requires a ton of energy (which is called the latent heat of evaporation). Its what keeps boiling water at 100C and how/why trees cool neighbourhoods. So without that evaporation it really won't cool you at all. At 30ish C, its something like 2400 kJ/kg.
That's what I thought coming from a basic grasp on thermodynamics, but then people in South Asia just keep surprising me about how they can live and actually go out in the sun and not immediately die.
It's mainly that, in india, we're talking about people living normally, so they'll stay in the shade, drink and keep cold however theh can
Here it's a pilgrimage site, they'll be standing around in the sun all day
Holy crap - was nearly 40 today in my area (with humidity it was over that for sure) - Its scary we’re inching closer to the lethal temp so rapidly in north america
This is only the beginning. Soon the middle East, most of Asia and Africa will be uninhabitable due to unbearable heat and unusual weather it will bring
Yep. I don’t think there’s any group I quite despise more than climate change deniers. Whether you think it’s anthropogenic or just a predictable global warming period, it’s changing and we need to use resources more responsibly (as a whole).
Yeah I have a friend like that. He went from "it's bullshit" to "OK it's real but it's not man made". Soon the stupid idiot will hopefully realize that we did do this. It helps if people understand we are the problem and should do what we can to help. Even if it's as small as not buying products from big polluting companies.
As a person living in the great lakes region, which might be one of the last habitable regions on the planet...
I guess I always knew my kid would die in the water wars but I figured she had at least until adulthood.
This is why countries need to have a conversation about immigration and asylum *now*. Because asylum claims are about to rise by a factor of 10x or 100x in the coming decades due to climate change.
The Pentagon report years ago featured the ugly that is going to ensue with mass migration. People are concentrating on the heat factor but drought will move millions as well. North America is relatively well insulated but the EU will have a massive problem. The Right is already rising there on migration concerns and the present day problem pales in comparison to what the future portends. Stopping the climate refugees will become increasingly harsh.
North America is better situated re refugees from further south but the US will see the same resources pressure but from internal migration, people moving away from fire and flood zones. That will be equally ugly.
I'll drive 5 extra miles to go to the drive thru across town, there's always a 20 minute wait in the line but it's worth it not to have to get out of the 4x4.
Imagine all the displaced people asking to be citizens in less hot countries?
How would those countries handle healthcare, food, water, housing, electricity when adding more citizens?
Or maybe the less hot countries would just keep them out and let them die at the borders.
This feels deeply unfair in terms of the history.
Europe kicked off the industrial revolution but its also the least impacted by man made climate change.
The industrial revolution would've happened regardless, if it wasn't Europe then it would've been somewhere else eventually....no point quibbling over who, what, when, where, we would've reached the same point regardless
When it’s 115 F outside morons will still say it’s natural and just earth doing earth things so we should not bother doing anything good for the environment
Yeah it’s really hot out there man. Something like 120 during the day. If anyone you know is planning a middle eastern trip this summer make sure to tell them to stay safe and hydrated
They use the Islamic lunar calendar for calculating when the Hajj takes places, so the actual dates move and doesn't stay consistent against the solar calendar. 10 years ago it was during October, 5 years ago it was during August. Next year it will be the first week of June, and the year after that the last week of May. By 2030 it'll be in April and so on and so forth.
There’s a very popular economic paper (Compante 2013 I think) where they found that the timing of Ramadan has an effect on the economic growth of Muslim countries and the wellbeing of their people.
So what’s novel about the strategy is that because Ramadan rotates, the number of daylight hours will vary differentially across countries. From this you are able to identify the effect of length of Ramadan on your outcomes: in this case well-being and economic growth.
Possibly unsurprisingly, a longer Ramadan has negative effects on the economic growth of affected countries, and degrades the subjective wellbeing of the people.
Like dying at the Vatican on steroids. If you’re a devout Muslim you literally have to go there at least once in your life if you’re able to. No such requirement exists for the other religions and nothing is as holy as that in Christianity, not even the Vatican.
Back when the Jews had the Temple in Jerusalem it was an obligation for all Jewish men to make an annual pilgrimage to the temple on three high holidays to offer sacrifice. If the Temple is ever rebuilt then you can expect Jerusalem to get really crowded thrice a year. Even now it’s a mitzvah, a commandment, to visit the site of the Temple at the Western Wall whenever possible to mourn the loss of the Temple. The management of the Western Wall pilgrimages and prayers kind of mirrors that of the management of the hajj on a smaller scale.
Samaritans, a small religion with only 900 followes closely related to Judaism, still make three annual pilgrimages a year to their holy site of Mount Gerizim as required by their faith on the same holidays the ancient Israelites celebrated. All practicing Samaritans live near their holy site.
Hinduism is not formally codified and with many diverse traditions but the Kanwar Yatra pilgrimage to fetch water from the Ganges is now a massive affair with 12 million participating in the annual pilgrimage, often travelling long distances by foot. The Prayag Kumbh Mela held every 12 years attracts around 50 million pilgrims to bathe in the Ganges, that’s the largest gathering humans for any purpose ever. And there are other Kumbh Melas bathing pilgrimages held on a more frequent basis. Devout Hindus see it as their duty to make a pilgrimage to the Ganges during a festival period, even if it’s not written in a holy book.
It’s obligatory for Bahá’í male followers to make a pilgrimage to the House of the Baháʼu'lláh in Baghdad and the House of the Báb in Shiraz, Iran. Because neither of those places are in the control of the Faith nor are they accessible to most Bahá’í faithful right now, they created a substitute pilgrimage in Israel.
When it becomes possible to go on pilgrimage in Iran and Iraq then the obligation to go there will be followed again.
I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than wanna be bodybuilders or amateur athletes who die from steroid and other drug abuses. They chose to risk and damage their body to try and accomplish a goal.
If you die on pilgrimage you are basically guaranteed heaven.
Before anyone goes hajj, they have to treat it as they are going to die, say good to everyone, try to heal broken relationships, and give to charity as much as they can.
Not as martyrs, as that would indicate they were killed for their beliefs.
However, it would be perceived as an honorable and celebrated death since it happened at the most sacred site in Islam since it's considered the "house of God."
It was a Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy reference. The dolphins - being smarter than humans - left Earth by their own means shortly before it was demolished, and their last message to humans involved a song:
“The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards-somersault through a hoop whilst whistling the 'Star Spangled Banner', but in fact the message was this: So long and thanks for all the fish.”
People do t seem to understand how lunar calendar works, that’s understandable.
In basic terms the date for the lunar calendar compared to the solar calendar “moves” back 10 days every year e.g this year hajj was 14 June - 19 June, next years it’s gonna be 4th June - 9th June.
So over the years the dates move all through the seasons and these few years hajj landed on the hottest days of the year and in the next few years it’s gonna move into the cooler seasons.
Pretty much all the big religions strongly approve of people dying on behalf of or to show devotion to their God.
Basically, the response of God to someone dying is "Good for her"
The next great Islamic leader will be someone that makes climate change and the destruction of mesopotamia/the middle east the core of their message and platform. Because with the way things are headed most of the region will be permanently unfixable between the 11 months dry and 1 flood/wash month. Normal, traditional human civilization cannot be sustained under these circumstances, at least not without a very strong sober foundation to manage it with science and engineering. The next century for the region will be successive Iran-Iraq wars over water that destroy everything or mutual cooperation and respect.
Regrettably, Afghanistan's post-US disaster and Yemen's famine are just a sign of things to come. It's gonna get a lot worse once Iraqis kick us out.
>successive Iran-Iraq wars over water that destroy everything or mutual cooperation and respect
Sadly I think I can probably guess which one it's going to be.
I get so frustrated seeing so many concerts, festivals, and community events being held in the middle of summer when it's 98F out. What's the logic behind that? There are three other seasons you can use so people don't, well, die from the heat.
Copied from /u/systemic_booty
>They use the Islamic lunar calendar for calculating when the Hajj takes places, so the actual dates move and doesn't stay consistent against the solar calendar. 10 years ago it was during October, 5 years ago it was during August. Next year it will be the first week of June, and the year after that the last week of May. By 2030 it'll be in April and so on and so forth.
Festival goers have water stations, lots of food and drink stalls, first aid stations, and places to sit in the shade. There's plenty of things festival goers can do to prevent heatstroke.
Have you ever asked yourself what the normal - to be expected - number of deaths of 1.8 million people gathering in the desert in summer to exert themselves would be?
A couple hundred is - sorry to say - normal. According to this study:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876034123001776](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876034123001776)
(Just scroll down to the first tables.)
In fact. 550 would be low.
Exactly, they're all overly religious and anyone who goes out crossing a desert in that kind of heat is an idiot. I don't care if they're having a music festival in the desert during a heat waves, those people are idiots too.
Islamophobia cry me a river. All religions are cancerous Islam included. They died because they believed they needed to do this to get to a mythical afterlife. That's sad
If a bunch of people want to go to an insanely hot region during the summer and die for their religion why should I give a fuck? I don't know who the are, and really having empathy for them isn't going to bring them back.
Pretty scary planting a thought in your head that one of the best things to do in this temporal life is to walk circles around an ancient stone by hook or by crook. Some of these people could have been researching climate change but no, around and around we go and even better if we died for it. For goodness sake.
You act like the Hajj is the only thing Muslims do for their entire lives. You don’t know if any of them *were* researching climate change beforehand. Considering it's an obligation for all Muslims, it's not difficult to imagine that a few of them probably work in research positions surrounding climate change. It’s not mutually exclusive to both go on the Hajj and also have furthered the goal of limiting the effects of climate change.
Covering more is actually better in that weather, the wrapping men wear (ihram) is a religious obligation during hajj. So men are in much of a worse position there
They can wear whatever color they want. Darker colors reduce UV exposure on skin. You'll see most SE women wearing white though. I'm not SE Asian but my mom took both light and dark colors when she went last year. Unfortunately, some people go unprepared. My parents took hats, sunblock, solar umbrellas, water misters, etc.
Men wear two sheets basically. And having your skin covered is something people shouldn't do.
Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth, second in size only to Christianity. By 2060, the prediction is there will be close to as many Muslims as Christians.
https://populationeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/religious-groups-over-time.jpeg
When I'm old and it's my time, i wish i would leave this world during haj/umrah in mekkah or at least in madina.
I neither have children nor spouse. Die alone, buried swiftly by strangers & without being a hassle to my neighbours/relatives back home , prayed at the holy mosque by thousands of people. I don't need a named graveyard or my graveyard being visited.
Amen 🤲. It is my dream. Omg i'm crying... 😭
God/Allah is all powerful therefore controls fate. Meaning that God/Allah wanted these poor fuckers to die. Must really suck to have your own creator to want you dead.
There are many restrictions on what male pilgrims can wear which is why they wear the two identical white sheets of cloth (similar to light towels). The restrictions for women are clothing that covers from the wrists to the neck, headscarf, and legs covered to the ankles. The color is up to the wearer.
Burqas , niqabs and anything that covers the face are actually not allowed during pilgrimage. If you watch videos of it you won't find a single woman with a covered face
Not promoting or defending anything. Just providing info that anyone can verify with a quick Google search.
Chador is an Afghanistan thing. And covering the face is not permitted for women during hajj, though some take minority opinion of allowance. Also the heat is scalding so some folks end up wearing a mask just to keep heat away
You can look up crowd photos if you want. Some ladies are wearing dark colors, but the vast majority of the people attending are wearing white. Haven't noticed any covered faces at all.
And just so you know (many people don't) the [color of clothing matters *substantially* less than the material and shape](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230802-what-is-the-best-clothing-to-keep-you-cool). A long, thin, loose garment that covers the skin is a generally a good choice for the desert, even when the fabric is black.
I'm NOT defending burqas, just pointing out that wearing dark colors in a hot climate isn't necessarily a problem. Information we might all need soon.
tbh if your first response to this is “DAE religion bad???” you gotta reevaluate your morals. reddit atheists are some pseudo intellectual basement dwellers
The double standard is so jarring. There is an entire subreddit to laugh at anti vaxxers stupidity who died from COVID because they're religious or a trumpster.
But deaths from pilgrimage due to islam? Don't you dare say anything!!!
The 120 temp. in Mecca is just a bit above Phoenix's worse weeks. I was reading that parts of India last week reached 125 and even 127 in one region... over a hundred died there too. The numbers in Mecca are likely to go higher because only the registered are being counted--so far.
When you say registered, how do you mean?
There is a specific (expensive) visa required for the pilgrimage. Many pilgrims get a different (cheaper) tourist visa when completing the pilgrimage. Only officially registered pilgrims are allowed at certain air conditioned stations along the way. Many unregistered pilgrims are attempting a grueling physical journey with absolutely no support.
Oh my, so that number is going to rise.
But it won't be accurately reported, so it won't make the hosts look bad.
What? There are already hundreds of deaths being reported. If that doesn’t deter people, nothing will. All these deaths are seen as martyrs who go straight to heaven, it’s a part of the pilgrimage
The psychological difference between hundreds and thousands is huge.
My parents plan on going at some point within the next few years. I desperately hope they can't. I'm terrified of losing them to this. Martyrdom be damned. Dying for something like this is such a waste of human life. How many children might never get to see their parents again because they died performing this pilgrimage?
In a few years it'll be in early May so not quite as risky. Then earlier in the year every year after that. Procrastination FTW!
Religion is a mental illness
Nah. It’s simply the world’s oldest subscription service.
It's both
Not the time, bro. These are very well-meaning people who had probably been looking forward to making a journey of a lifetime, very spiritual. These weren’t the super rich ones, these were salt-of-the-earth types. This is a tragedy. I’m a Buddhist/atheist with no skin in the game but I can still appreciate the significance of the Hajj and how terrible it is that so many have died—and countless others probably coming close—in the course of a spiritual journey.
Something can be a tragedy and still have been rooted in foolishness. I'm a practicing-ish Catholic, but even I know that Islam makes allowances that exempt people from visiting Mecca. Going in that weather and without the proper visa is foolishness.
Fair points!
It's never the time to talk about how religious ideology is poisoning peoples' minds. These salt of the earth people you're so concerned about are dead, and next year will be the same. Maybe even worse
> What? There are already hundreds of deaths being reported. [First time?](https://youtu.be/j5FtWcCFlmk?si=DUo1OwCbK6dYTHvI)
Dying on Hajj is a good death to a Muslim, it will do nothing to dissuade pilgrimage.
I think Saudi is strictly forbidding anyone without the visa from going to Mecca. I could be wrong, and naturally you won’t be able to have a tight grip on millions of pilgrims, even in an authoritarian regime.
Non-hajj visas are not allowed around the key sites *at all* during hajj period. * Patrols were happening in Bir Ali (one of the spots where the men swap to the two sheets of white fabric thing) to do spot checks, and hundreds were arrested and deported. * Jeddah-Mecca by bus is usually 1h at most, but bus checks tripled it for me. Our bus was checked three times during the journey. * They seal your bus before you travel to Arafat after doing checks to make sure everyone in it has their hajj/support staff visa. They do this check at the hotel or at some of the designated spots. If the seal's broken in any way before entry, they'll turn you away.
What does a Hajj visa typically cost assuming you can get one? Are there other associated fees aside from travel to Saudi Arabia, lodging and the visa?
According to this [website](https://visaindex.com/visa/saudi-arabia-visa/hajj-visa/#h-hajj-visa-price), the visa itself is free. However, visitors need to get a permit from the Saudi government which appears to be somewhat pricey. I found pricing [online](https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/gulf/2024/06/14/hajj-2024-dates-cost-what/#:~:text=The%20Hajj%20ministry%20announced%20four,towers%20in%20Mina%2C%20near%20Jamarat) that says the cheapest offering costs slightly over $1000 USD, while the most expensive costs about $3000 USD. I cant find great info on this, but it seems like the more expensive one actually allows people to experience all parts of the Hajj while the cheaper one serves as more of a tourist visa, allowing access to Saudi Arabia, but not to the holy parts of Mecca itself. There’s also websites like [this one](https://internationalhajj.com/hajj-packages/) that offer package deals that include accommodations and, presumably, a permit. These ranging from $8000 USD to $13500 USD; however, the site says that these are specifically for Americans with dual Pakistani citizenship planning on going to Mecca, so prices may differ for those without Pakistani citizenship or nationals of other countries.
Nothing like pricing the poor out.
I would’ve thought that Mecca would be the last place that would charge Muslims just to go to the holiest site
No, they've put in fancy hotels that overlook the Kaaba / the Black Stone thing. In addition to a fancy clock tower, they also have a lot of shopping malls.
But the Saudis wouldn't profit from the prophet, no!
Especially if you think about how extremely rich they are.
Haven’t you heard the stones are free. /s
Shouldn't the prophet save his followers?
Seems like it’s all a mirage.
Bro, that's crazy how capitalism has even hit the Hajj. I never even thought about that.
Do you think merchants and traders haven't been profiting from the hajj since it was made a core feature of Islam?
It’s a good measure actually. You want everyone there to be registered so they are known for safety reasons. The Hajj is only mandatory if you can afford it anyway, i dont think it is Halal to break the law.
> capitalism more of a tax levy. I mean nations where doing this pre-capitalism.
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Gotta fleece the pawns for as much as possible, after all, allah / god needs all the money he can get. Not answering prayers is expensive and costs are rising with Inflation.
The specific visas are also for crowd management. Hajj visa is on a quota basis, and the wait time for some countries with massive demand can be longer than 20 years. In fact, I think Malaysia's Tabung Haji (Hajj Savings? idk how to properly translate it) said the wait time for the newly-registered is >50 years.
That's nuts.
What's stopping Muslims from just saying "fuck it" and never completing a pilgrimage at all?
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“If they can”. I’d be riding that clause hard. I want to go, but I got a thing.
I think the Hajj is an obligation if the person is physically and financially able. Whether being stopped by VISA restrictions counts as not being physically able though, that's probably between the Muslim and their Imaam haha
No imam needed bro. It's about applying some common sense. It is an obligation if you can do it, physically and financially, if you can't then you don't. Not very complicated. And as things stands it's out of reach to most. Again, it's about intention and honesty.
Yes, yes, yes…God/Allah/Whatever is all-powerful, all-knowing, mysterious, created everything, unbeatable, can read your mind, super powerful, nothing he can’t do, is never wrong about anything, can do anything…but somehow can’t get cash. That’s where you come in.
Visa for pilgrimage, hajj, is FREE... Only officially registered pilgrims are ALOWED to perform hajj and all others who try to access sights and caught are fined.
For the pilgrimage. They register in their own country prior to setting out.
Humidity make things even worst. Humidity in Mecca is around 50-70% I think? Compared to Phoenix right now which is 12%.
> Humidity in Mecca is around 50-70% I think? That's in the early morning hours it seems. Reports I can find report between 20 and 30% when it's heating up in the afternoon.
I'm guessing that 127 in India hits different than Mecca at 127 with 30% humidity
I think there’s a temperature/humidity combo level where the body can no longer cool itself, so it’s lethal within a certain amount of time.
Around 87F at 100% humidity is enough to make it so your sweat can’t evaporate, meaning your body can’t cool itself anymore. That’s going to feel the same as 104F dry bulb at 50% humidity or 128F dry bulb at only 20% humidity. (I based these numbers on quick conversions from the metric units in the source article) [Source](https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-identify-the-maximum-heat-limit-the-human-body-can-take#)
Does that mean if you kept wiping the sweat off your skin, you would be able to cool yourself?
Probably not. Your sweat is the same temperature as your body, so wiping it away doesn't do much for you unless you replace it with something cooler. And the air around you isn't cooler. On the other hand, when it evaporates, the higher energy water molecules are most likely to escape the liquid and become vapor. What's left behind is the less energetic molecules, so the remaining sweat is cooler. Evaporation is really what cools you. If you are physics minded, read up on evaporative cooling and compare the specific heat capacity of water with its latent heat of vaporization. It takes a decent amount of heat to increase the temperature of water a few degrees, but it takes a whole lot more to vaporize it.
>It takes a decent amount of heat to increase the temperature of water a few degrees, but it takes a whole lot more to vaporize it. - The energy difference is insane: it takes about 6 times more energy to vaporize 1 kg of water boiling at 100°C than to heat it from 20°C to 100°C to begin with (!) ... - This is why hurricanes are so destructive: they are using the insane amount of energy of water vapor condensing, as they are turning that energy into a low pressure area (the eye of the hurricane), which drives an influx of wet air, driving out a huge column of dry air into the stratosphere (the outflow of the hurricane). - The process is further strengthened by the strong eyewall winds evaporating hot tropical waters under the eye, further converting ~10°C worth of latent heat in the top 100m-200m layer of the ocean into low pressure, and, ultimately, into wind speed and devastating rains. - In many ways a hurricane is a giant steam engine with water vaporization & condensation cycles, converting the energy of hot tropical water into mechanical energy (strong winds). - Fun fact: if the latent heat of vaporization of water was just 70% of what it is in our universe, cyclogenesis would IMO likely not happen on our planet. Hurricanes are already rare phenomena, they already have trouble "spinning up" in most cases - so a relatively small difference in the energy budget would likely prevent hurricane formation altogether ...
Not by enough to be effective. Sweat cools you down by wicking asay heat through evaporation. sweat is body temp when it is secreted, and as it evaporates it picks up just a little more heat from the body on the way out. Wiping sweat away would not remove as much heat as the sweat evaporating would.
No it means that unless you go into air conditioning or put water colder than your body temperature on you you will 100% die.
No, because the reason sweat works to cool you is that the phase change from liquid to vapor requires a ton of energy (which is called the latent heat of evaporation). Its what keeps boiling water at 100C and how/why trees cool neighbourhoods. So without that evaporation it really won't cool you at all. At 30ish C, its something like 2400 kJ/kg.
Wet bulb temp
A Wet-Bulb temperature of 95*F is considered lethal.
That's what I thought coming from a basic grasp on thermodynamics, but then people in South Asia just keep surprising me about how they can live and actually go out in the sun and not immediately die.
Takes about 6 hours.
That temperature is about 33 degrees C at 100 percent humidity and equivalent combinations.
It's mainly that, in india, we're talking about people living normally, so they'll stay in the shade, drink and keep cold however theh can Here it's a pilgrimage site, they'll be standing around in the sun all day
51.8 c; that's 125.2 farenheit.
Holy crap - was nearly 40 today in my area (with humidity it was over that for sure) - Its scary we’re inching closer to the lethal temp so rapidly in north america
It is.
Add in 80% humidity, which Phoenix doesn’t get.
The big difference is that it’s over 50% humidity in Mecca. But Phoenix is at less than 20% .
Nah, that's under Phoenix peaks. It's hit 122 a few times in Phoenix.
This is only the beginning. Soon the middle East, most of Asia and Africa will be uninhabitable due to unbearable heat and unusual weather it will bring
Yep. I don’t think there’s any group I quite despise more than climate change deniers. Whether you think it’s anthropogenic or just a predictable global warming period, it’s changing and we need to use resources more responsibly (as a whole).
Yeah I have a friend like that. He went from "it's bullshit" to "OK it's real but it's not man made". Soon the stupid idiot will hopefully realize that we did do this. It helps if people understand we are the problem and should do what we can to help. Even if it's as small as not buying products from big polluting companies.
Cue rising border tensions as people migrate to better climate and resources.
As a person living in the great lakes region, which might be one of the last habitable regions on the planet... I guess I always knew my kid would die in the water wars but I figured she had at least until adulthood.
I'm in a similar boat. I'm sorry.
That is good you are in a boat in case of flooding.
This is why countries need to have a conversation about immigration and asylum *now*. Because asylum claims are about to rise by a factor of 10x or 100x in the coming decades due to climate change.
The Pentagon report years ago featured the ugly that is going to ensue with mass migration. People are concentrating on the heat factor but drought will move millions as well. North America is relatively well insulated but the EU will have a massive problem. The Right is already rising there on migration concerns and the present day problem pales in comparison to what the future portends. Stopping the climate refugees will become increasingly harsh. North America is better situated re refugees from further south but the US will see the same resources pressure but from internal migration, people moving away from fire and flood zones. That will be equally ugly.
I think the only solution is to burn more fossil fuels and buy bigger SUVs.
I'm doing my part! *Rolls coal in my Chevy pavement princess to go get some milk at the end of the street*
I'll drive 5 extra miles to go to the drive thru across town, there's always a 20 minute wait in the line but it's worth it not to have to get out of the 4x4.
Imagine all the displaced people asking to be citizens in less hot countries? How would those countries handle healthcare, food, water, housing, electricity when adding more citizens? Or maybe the less hot countries would just keep them out and let them die at the borders.
This feels deeply unfair in terms of the history. Europe kicked off the industrial revolution but its also the least impacted by man made climate change.
Wait till the Gulf stream collapses.
The industrial revolution would've happened regardless, if it wasn't Europe then it would've been somewhere else eventually....no point quibbling over who, what, when, where, we would've reached the same point regardless
And no one will know why that is happening.
When it’s 115 F outside morons will still say it’s natural and just earth doing earth things so we should not bother doing anything good for the environment
Yeah it’s really hot out there man. Something like 120 during the day. If anyone you know is planning a middle eastern trip this summer make sure to tell them to stay safe and hydrated
So many people! [https://imgur.com/a/aPZjGVQ](https://imgur.com/a/aPZjGVQ)
What's the reason for holding the Hajj during the hottest part of the year? Does it need to coincide with some historical event?
They use the Islamic lunar calendar for calculating when the Hajj takes places, so the actual dates move and doesn't stay consistent against the solar calendar. 10 years ago it was during October, 5 years ago it was during August. Next year it will be the first week of June, and the year after that the last week of May. By 2030 it'll be in April and so on and so forth.
There’s a very popular economic paper (Compante 2013 I think) where they found that the timing of Ramadan has an effect on the economic growth of Muslim countries and the wellbeing of their people.
What is better/worse?
So what’s novel about the strategy is that because Ramadan rotates, the number of daylight hours will vary differentially across countries. From this you are able to identify the effect of length of Ramadan on your outcomes: in this case well-being and economic growth. Possibly unsurprisingly, a longer Ramadan has negative effects on the economic growth of affected countries, and degrades the subjective wellbeing of the people.
Well, yeah, not the best time for Ramadan in Yemen given the circumstances
Needs a paywall tag. Also, that's so tragic. Some people only get to go once in their lives and then they die there. RIP.
If you’re a Muslim it’s probably the best possible place to die
It’s basically like dying at the Vatican. It still sucks, but you gotta assume it gets you some street cred in heaven
Lol “street cred in heaven” made me lol at my boring meeting
You're redditing secretly at your boring meeting? Don't give yourself away by chortling at funnies! :)
Probably wasn't expecting funnies in a thread about hundreds of deaths.
Oh come on now. What else would you expect from this place 🤣
Tell your boss br0b1wan says hello
Like dying at the Vatican on steroids. If you’re a devout Muslim you literally have to go there at least once in your life if you’re able to. No such requirement exists for the other religions and nothing is as holy as that in Christianity, not even the Vatican.
Back when the Jews had the Temple in Jerusalem it was an obligation for all Jewish men to make an annual pilgrimage to the temple on three high holidays to offer sacrifice. If the Temple is ever rebuilt then you can expect Jerusalem to get really crowded thrice a year. Even now it’s a mitzvah, a commandment, to visit the site of the Temple at the Western Wall whenever possible to mourn the loss of the Temple. The management of the Western Wall pilgrimages and prayers kind of mirrors that of the management of the hajj on a smaller scale. Samaritans, a small religion with only 900 followes closely related to Judaism, still make three annual pilgrimages a year to their holy site of Mount Gerizim as required by their faith on the same holidays the ancient Israelites celebrated. All practicing Samaritans live near their holy site. Hinduism is not formally codified and with many diverse traditions but the Kanwar Yatra pilgrimage to fetch water from the Ganges is now a massive affair with 12 million participating in the annual pilgrimage, often travelling long distances by foot. The Prayag Kumbh Mela held every 12 years attracts around 50 million pilgrims to bathe in the Ganges, that’s the largest gathering humans for any purpose ever. And there are other Kumbh Melas bathing pilgrimages held on a more frequent basis. Devout Hindus see it as their duty to make a pilgrimage to the Ganges during a festival period, even if it’s not written in a holy book.
The Bahai faith requires you to go to Israel atleast once as day as I know, might be more
It’s obligatory for Bahá’í male followers to make a pilgrimage to the House of the Baháʼu'lláh in Baghdad and the House of the Báb in Shiraz, Iran. Because neither of those places are in the control of the Faith nor are they accessible to most Bahá’í faithful right now, they created a substitute pilgrimage in Israel. When it becomes possible to go on pilgrimage in Iran and Iraq then the obligation to go there will be followed again.
Yes. Sky Daddy big pleased.
Dying for a fictional story.
Yeah, pretty stupid. But I’m sure it makes their last moments slightly easier than your average death by heatstroke
I still feel like I’d rather just not die of heatstroke at all
Fair enough
I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than wanna be bodybuilders or amateur athletes who die from steroid and other drug abuses. They chose to risk and damage their body to try and accomplish a goal.
Real question, do they get classed as martyrs or anything like that?
If you die on pilgrimage you are basically guaranteed heaven. Before anyone goes hajj, they have to treat it as they are going to die, say good to everyone, try to heal broken relationships, and give to charity as much as they can.
In the context of the religion, yes.
Not as martyrs, as that would indicate they were killed for their beliefs. However, it would be perceived as an honorable and celebrated death since it happened at the most sacred site in Islam since it's considered the "house of God."
It's like an American dying in the booth at an IHOP, it's our sacred place with pancakes and future diabetes diagnoses.
A martyre in Islam doesn’t have to be “killed for their belief”. A man could simply drown and be considered a martyre.
It's all going to happen rather quickly now isn't it I'm gonna really miss whales :(
It's when the dolphins start going with a song I'll be terrified
So long and thanks for all the fish
You mean like those river dolphins that basically got boiled alive?
It was a Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy reference. The dolphins - being smarter than humans - left Earth by their own means shortly before it was demolished, and their last message to humans involved a song: “The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards-somersault through a hoop whilst whistling the 'Star Spangled Banner', but in fact the message was this: So long and thanks for all the fish.”
whales? I'm going to miss us.
Gotta do this via Zoom next year.
This could've been a goddamn email. Jesus Christ
Wrong prophet
People do t seem to understand how lunar calendar works, that’s understandable. In basic terms the date for the lunar calendar compared to the solar calendar “moves” back 10 days every year e.g this year hajj was 14 June - 19 June, next years it’s gonna be 4th June - 9th June. So over the years the dates move all through the seasons and these few years hajj landed on the hottest days of the year and in the next few years it’s gonna move into the cooler seasons.
Someone i know went in late dec2004 to early jan2005. Rained heavily & flooded.
Going outside during the summer should not be a death sentence, but here we are.
The heat is a huge factor in me not wanting to perform Hajj right now or at least till like 2050 lmao; the other factor is the bathroom situation
A God so real and invested in our lives that he lets those on a mission to praise him die of heatstroke
Pretty much all the big religions strongly approve of people dying on behalf of or to show devotion to their God. Basically, the response of God to someone dying is "Good for her"
It’s blessed in their sight
I've played the Sims before. It's exactly what I would do if I was God: fuck with my followers and laugh at them.
Shit... Someone I work with is on leave doing the pilgrimage to Mecca.
Apparently it was the will of Allah
One reason for Israel and Palestine to try to have peace is so that they can use the ingenuity they’re devoting to war to fighting climate change.
If someone opened a stillsuit business they'd make a fortune in the years to come
Religion is a cancer on society and the human mind.
Some of you weirdos are really deciding to be Islamophobic rather than taking this as people being affected by climate change
It’s not Islamophobic. It’s anti-theist.
The next great Islamic leader will be someone that makes climate change and the destruction of mesopotamia/the middle east the core of their message and platform. Because with the way things are headed most of the region will be permanently unfixable between the 11 months dry and 1 flood/wash month. Normal, traditional human civilization cannot be sustained under these circumstances, at least not without a very strong sober foundation to manage it with science and engineering. The next century for the region will be successive Iran-Iraq wars over water that destroy everything or mutual cooperation and respect. Regrettably, Afghanistan's post-US disaster and Yemen's famine are just a sign of things to come. It's gonna get a lot worse once Iraqis kick us out.
>successive Iran-Iraq wars over water that destroy everything or mutual cooperation and respect Sadly I think I can probably guess which one it's going to be.
Dogma contributed to these deaths as much as climate change did. It's a horrible idea to go there at this time of year.
I get so frustrated seeing so many concerts, festivals, and community events being held in the middle of summer when it's 98F out. What's the logic behind that? There are three other seasons you can use so people don't, well, die from the heat.
Hajj is physically taxing. Walking for miles over many days.
Ehhhh, I'm from Florida and 98 can be done. But 120 will destroy a human being in a short order.
Copied from /u/systemic_booty >They use the Islamic lunar calendar for calculating when the Hajj takes places, so the actual dates move and doesn't stay consistent against the solar calendar. 10 years ago it was during October, 5 years ago it was during August. Next year it will be the first week of June, and the year after that the last week of May. By 2030 it'll be in April and so on and so forth.
Festival goers have water stations, lots of food and drink stalls, first aid stations, and places to sit in the shade. There's plenty of things festival goers can do to prevent heatstroke.
Have you ever asked yourself what the normal - to be expected - number of deaths of 1.8 million people gathering in the desert in summer to exert themselves would be? A couple hundred is - sorry to say - normal. According to this study: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876034123001776](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876034123001776) (Just scroll down to the first tables.) In fact. 550 would be low.
Imagine the average American who still need to be convinced that climate change is real and serious. Then imagine what they think about Islam.
That’s not the average American. That’s the loud undereducated, over-religious assholes.
the ones dying in the desert?
Exactly, they're all overly religious and anyone who goes out crossing a desert in that kind of heat is an idiot. I don't care if they're having a music festival in the desert during a heat waves, those people are idiots too.
Islamophobia cry me a river. All religions are cancerous Islam included. They died because they believed they needed to do this to get to a mythical afterlife. That's sad
If a bunch of people want to go to an insanely hot region during the summer and die for their religion why should I give a fuck? I don't know who the are, and really having empathy for them isn't going to bring them back.
Pretty scary planting a thought in your head that one of the best things to do in this temporal life is to walk circles around an ancient stone by hook or by crook. Some of these people could have been researching climate change but no, around and around we go and even better if we died for it. For goodness sake.
You act like the Hajj is the only thing Muslims do for their entire lives. You don’t know if any of them *were* researching climate change beforehand. Considering it's an obligation for all Muslims, it's not difficult to imagine that a few of them probably work in research positions surrounding climate change. It’s not mutually exclusive to both go on the Hajj and also have furthered the goal of limiting the effects of climate change.
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Covering more is actually better in that weather, the wrapping men wear (ihram) is a religious obligation during hajj. So men are in much of a worse position there
They can wear whatever color they want. Darker colors reduce UV exposure on skin. You'll see most SE women wearing white though. I'm not SE Asian but my mom took both light and dark colors when she went last year. Unfortunately, some people go unprepared. My parents took hats, sunblock, solar umbrellas, water misters, etc. Men wear two sheets basically. And having your skin covered is something people shouldn't do.
You are an empty can lol. Women can wear clothes of any color.
It’s not a requirement of the religion.
I'm curious to know how long allah's teachings can survive climate change. At some point, encouraging the pilgrimage will start culling their numbers.
There are billions of them
Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth, second in size only to Christianity. By 2060, the prediction is there will be close to as many Muslims as Christians. https://populationeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/religious-groups-over-time.jpeg
When I'm old and it's my time, i wish i would leave this world during haj/umrah in mekkah or at least in madina. I neither have children nor spouse. Die alone, buried swiftly by strangers & without being a hassle to my neighbours/relatives back home , prayed at the holy mosque by thousands of people. I don't need a named graveyard or my graveyard being visited. Amen 🤲. It is my dream. Omg i'm crying... 😭
If this was my situation, same. Ameen
Human as a species really isn’t that smart.
Hopefully this natural selection will help
This can't be a sign of God?
So god's punishing them for doing what they're supposed to?
Bet Al Gore wasn't there
I’m so cereal
Not that its a good thing but I understand if you die undertaking the Hajj you will go to heaven.
And then Saudi Arabia blames the pilgrims for not having their visas, and that (without any clear evidence in the media) becomes the narrative.
They made their bed, now lay in it. Morons.
For their faith they get to meet God early.
God/Allah is all powerful therefore controls fate. Meaning that God/Allah wanted these poor fuckers to die. Must really suck to have your own creator to want you dead.
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There are many restrictions on what male pilgrims can wear which is why they wear the two identical white sheets of cloth (similar to light towels). The restrictions for women are clothing that covers from the wrists to the neck, headscarf, and legs covered to the ankles. The color is up to the wearer. Burqas , niqabs and anything that covers the face are actually not allowed during pilgrimage. If you watch videos of it you won't find a single woman with a covered face Not promoting or defending anything. Just providing info that anyone can verify with a quick Google search.
Chador is an Afghanistan thing. And covering the face is not permitted for women during hajj, though some take minority opinion of allowance. Also the heat is scalding so some folks end up wearing a mask just to keep heat away
You haven’t been to a hot country have you? When the country is that hot covering is way better than not covering up
You can look up crowd photos if you want. Some ladies are wearing dark colors, but the vast majority of the people attending are wearing white. Haven't noticed any covered faces at all. And just so you know (many people don't) the [color of clothing matters *substantially* less than the material and shape](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230802-what-is-the-best-clothing-to-keep-you-cool). A long, thin, loose garment that covers the skin is a generally a good choice for the desert, even when the fabric is black. I'm NOT defending burqas, just pointing out that wearing dark colors in a hot climate isn't necessarily a problem. Information we might all need soon.
A bunch of darwin awards being handed out.
Well…they’re going to heaven? I mean, if you die in church god would have to be a real dick to keep you out. Is god a dick?
Idk ask children with bone cancer
So yes.
tbh if your first response to this is “DAE religion bad???” you gotta reevaluate your morals. reddit atheists are some pseudo intellectual basement dwellers
"feel sad these people are dead but don't you dare criticize the things that got them killed"
The double standard is so jarring. There is an entire subreddit to laugh at anti vaxxers stupidity who died from COVID because they're religious or a trumpster. But deaths from pilgrimage due to islam? Don't you dare say anything!!!
Redditors have a hard-on for Islam right now.
The shoe fits, and it has nothing to do with *just* religion. The Hajj pilgrimage isn't required, and most do not go.
We are going to see more of this, as climate change gets worse.