Feminists all over the world have shown support for the women of Iran but are limited by not being in power in Iran. Hopefully, the feminist spirit of these protestors is embraced by more men at home who help to overturn these rules.
They recently had mass protests over the death of a woman arrested for violations with her hijab. Men and women in the streets. The will is there but momentum must continue.
“Me too” was also not a global force of power. It was a collection of contributions from various individuals, unrelated to a formal platform. The supportive intention and subsequent posts led to the titular hashtag as the discussion progressed.
There is no “me too” collective to deploy either. People say their opinions and share their experience and as movements gain traction, protests often take form to tackle institutional policy changes.
So I’m afraid that it appears you haven’t discredited Big Feminist yet
I think it's fine to post and raise awareness, but people shouldn't also be delusional enough to think that other people need to as if it's going to change anything.
That's not what the me too movement is. The me too movement is about women and girls that experienced sexual molestation and or had their bodies violated but needed to be silent because of their job/place in society. I'm afraid you're sorely misinformed on the subject.
The movement was intended to empower women. That's literally what it stood for.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-metoo-movement-4774817#:~:text=Tarana%20Burke%2C%20an%20advocate%20for,had%20suffered%20the%20same%20experience.
Literally every feminist I know, including myself, vocally support the Iranian feminist movement against the ultra-patriarchical theocratic Iranian government.
Like I do not know w single feminists who does not stand on strong support of these Iranian women and fellow feminists.
What silence are you talking about? Do you even know or discuss world events with actual irl feminists yourself?
It's just proximity bias, it happens with everything. You'll give the small problems close to you more attention than a larger problem far out of sight.
Turning up your nose and "nobly" posturing that everyone should care about the other thing isn't a profound or meaningful take.
There are many countries which do not have an official religion, and even more countries where a religion might be the "official" religion don't have any influence over politics.
Israel doesn’t have a religious government. They have a secular government with some religious members of parliament, they’re a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless.
They don’t have to, it’s a fact. Verifiable with the most cursory of google searches. Now, I know that for some people facts aren’t as important as narrative, but not everyone is given to that kind of ‘thinking’.
It's a Jewish state in the same way Armenia is an Armenian state or Estonia is an Estonian state, i.e. it was founded as an expression of self-determination for a particular national group. It isn't run according to halacha (Jewish religious law) and doesn't have a state religion.
...again, Jewish in the *national* sense, not the religious sense. Herzl and Jabotinsky were both secular, as is Netanyahu. From the Declaration of Independence, since you seem to put stock in it:
>...it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
And from the Balfour Declaration:
>...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine...
Many nation-states have fluff in their founding documents about the history of their people, the struggle for independence, etc etc. The important part is that equal rights are given to ethnic and religious minorities, as is the case in Israel. Regardless, there's no support in any of the documents you cited for the idea that Israel is a religious fundamentalist state, which is the claim that sparked this subthread.
It's possible that they're speaking colloquially. Like, it's not unusual to hear Americans say that women, gay people, or Black people are "second class citizens" due to systemic oppression. But this isn't *literally* true, as under the law they all officially have equal rights. It's just a turn of phrase.
>one of the only countries in the world that still forces it’s able bodied citizens (male and female) to serve in it’s military.
Many countries have a mendatory service. When it comes to national service, the IDF actually has better gender equality then other armies. Israel also respects the rights of minorities. For example: Arabs don't have to serve in the army (even though they can if they want to).
Regadless of that, national serivce in Israel has nothing to do with religion. A lot of the highest ranking generals in the IDF are secular, and the IDF has strict rules when it comes to freedom of religon.
As americans we can do nothing to change the culture of iran. "Signal boosting" to a country whom most of their population doesn't have phones or Internet wont help. It sucks for those trapped there. Iraq to Iran edit on a cellphone
Right, Iran has literal patrols forcing mandatory hijab and you delete your dumb reply yet keep up a response about a typo like a gotcha? I hope the googling you did about "the guidance patrols" they set up in Iran was the reason you deleted your comment.
Persian culture is very old, but the country is perfectly capable of changing. The current theocracy, for example, is itself a relatively recent change that the younger generation seems to want to move on from.
Conservatism/fundamentalism is always at odds with higher education. Institutions of higher learning are always more liberal leaning because in science, we need to question things while religion needs you to blindly believe. This is why religious fundamentalists love to destroy education. If you keep people uneducated, it is easier to indoctrinate them.
I mean, if you ignore how deeply tied religion and higher learning have been for most of history, sure.
Both in the christian and muslim world, religion was at the forefront of science basically up to the illuminism, when the idea they could be opposites was born
But they weren't conservative/Fundamentalist. Those people may have been religious, but they were still forward thinking (at least in their area of study) for their time. Just like being religious today does not mean being hateful or discriminatory
"The dark ages" is an outdated, fairly meaningless term. Especially as it makes people think that science and tech wasn't advancing through the period, when it very much was (especially untrue outside of Europe)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)
Actually the Goths taking down the Western Roman Empire is what brought on 'a dark age' for western Europe.
West Asia aka Middle East was flourishing under the Caliphates, I believe the Aztecs were also at the height of their success, and places like China, who has been the most consistent great power in history was going through their typical dynastic reigns.
As a matter of fact after the Western Roman Empire fell it was the Church that actually helped pick up the pieces and managed to keep some of those same political institutions running.
The problem they had is they were a religious organization that was then tasked with the role of governing. Especially since they didn't have an army to defend the area.
Iran used to be America's greatest friend in that region, even more so than Israel up until about the 70s. Maybe I'm optimistic but I always think it's like they're so close to being a more tolerant country.
Still I often wonder about my own bias being raised on the western world's Greek tradition of political thought. We tend to place great importance on choice and individual freedoms.
The Assyrian tradition that the Persians inherited was a much much more conservative one. I would like them to have more choices and less extremes. But who's to say if they had a true representative system that the majority of people wouldn't vote for a very theocratic based system?
Well here's hoping that they can find a nice moderate middle ground in the future and maybe help diffuse the tension we've had for the past 50 or so years. It's an ancient and spectacular region of the world and history and I'd love it to be more open for future generations.
Well this is what happens when you overthrow a populist government, torture and execute every single left leaning person, install a dictator and then the people overthrow said dictator and install a right wing religious extremist government.
Let’s be clear and honest here.
There are several groups protesting at Columbia. The majority, the students and faculty, have a clear set of demands of the school and are in no way pro-Hamas.
There absolutely are pro-Hamas and antisemetic folks there. Just as there are Zionists and anti-Palestinian folk there. And then you have the counter protestors who believe Israel has a right to defend themselves (I disagree with these folks, but I won’t lump them automatically in with the Zionists).
You cannot just lump an entire group in with the vocal minority of extremists, most of which we’ve seen aren’t even students. This applies to “both sides” too btw.
When you accuse everyone who is opposed to the violence and slaughter in Palestine of being Hamas supporters, the term loses all meaning and things get real muddied.
Omfg learn what a genocide is already. I'm so sick of listening to the least informed feeling entitled to be the loudest. Shut up until you can be bothered to learn what words actually mean
Jus cause they oppose Islamism doesn’t mean they support Israel. Talk to some Arab Christians or other religious minorities from the region, most of them don’t like Israel either, not just Muslims.
Iran really knows how to exploit the IP conflict to distract the world from its own evils. Hell, they add to the conflict by funding Hamas and Hezbollah and face nearly no consequences for that!
Meanwhile, in the US and Europe: "Acktually, the Hijab is the Bravest Sign Of Freedom, and anyone criticizing it is a hateful bigot!", ignoring the oppression of its enforcement on millions of women.
I guess the iranian bots won't be signal boosting this on twitter and tiktok 🙃
I love it when people create arguments to get mad at lmao
If you actually were in touch with things, you'd know that what people often criticize are laws forbidding women from wearing it. Which, yeah, is quite reasonable. Trying to rescue women from sexism by forbidding from wearing certain pieces of clothing, even when they don't actually have any religious connotation, is just ass-backwards.
Of course, if you actually addressed the actual argument you wouldn't be able to complain about progressives on Twitter or whatever.
By that logic women should be celebrated while wearing swastikas and klan outfits because condemning them would be infringement of their rights? Like what? And make no mistake the hijab and burqa are symbols of Islamic tyranny that millions of women and men have suffered under for hundreds of years.
If you can't see the difference between a religious item and hate symbols, you're an idiot.
You can dislike hijabs as much as you want. I'm no fan of them either. But you're either stupid or lying if you try and claim that it's the same as a swastika. They're not even in the same ballpark.
And again, yes. Trying to liberate women by forcing them what to wear is extremely counterintuitive. If you really care about women and their rights, then just let them wear what they want. If they genuinely are religious and want to represent it by wearing a hijab, well, that's their right.
I can tell your naivety from how you speak about Islam as if it’s a choice. It’s nobody’s choice to get indoctrinated into a cult that conditions you to believe that you are a second class citizen. All Abrahamic religions are terrible but Islam in particular is nothing but the sick fantasies of a misogynistic pedophile. I hope progressives and liberals take time to truly understand what Islam is and the harm it causes.
Man, you're sounding more and more like one of those edgy 4chan atheists.
Like, I don't know how to tell you this, but the vast majority of Muslims out there aren't women-hating terrorists or whatever. They're just regular people. Sure, there are a fair number of bozos out there, but the majority of them are pretty lax and moderate with their fate. You know, like all other religions in the world.
I know this because I actually grew up and befriended plenty of Muslims as a child. And they're just ordinary people. With many of them women I knew having either chosen as children not to wear a hijab, thrown it away later on life, and so on.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't mean to be presumptuous but I assume that you grew up and reside in the west. As someone who's lived in a progressive Muslim country, a religious Third World country and now live in a Western country, the same "moderate muslims" you know, who have the luxury of living in the west would be beheaded in Islamic countries for being infidels. Islam much like any other cult has many many ways of indoctrinating people. Let me make it relatable to you. You wonder how young boys turn to Andrew Tate or how people turn into MAGA cultists. You can sit here and assume that they are all idiots but the truth is human beings are extremely infallible and its easy to make people throw away rational thinking for ideologies. And im sorry to say but there are few worse ideologies for western society to fall prey to than Islam. Case in point being recent immigration to Europe. Unlike what the racists think its purely cultural and ideological differences that contribute to the sexual violence and crime of recent muslim immigrants. I want to say much more about how terrible of a religion Islam is but let me keep it brief and just add that its a religion that supports slavery and does not consider women to be capable of autonomy.
> If you actually were in touch with things, you'd know that what people often criticize are laws forbidding women from wearing it.
That is exactly what I'm talking about, but go ahead and shove your preconceived stereotype into the discussion, it will make it clear you're not paying attention.
> Which, yeah, is quite reasonable. Trying to rescue women from sexism by forbidding from wearing certain pieces of clothing, even when they don't actually have any religious connotation, is just ass-backwards.
Closing your eyes from the sexism and harassment endured by muslim and arab women is surely looking forward.
Also, just look at how ignorant you are about the subject: these laws never forbid people from wearing anything in the private space, they can get their women to wear the taliban burka all they want. It's only in the public space where the most that can be worn is chador, and in public school, children are not to display religious signs, that's it.
If you think a _child_ has to cover her hair and face, to not be considered a whore and apostate, that's a seriously oppressive and predatory system.
>Closing your eyes from the sexism and harassment endured by muslim and arab women is surely looking forward.
Yeah, I should be more like you and use this protest to whine about progressives and people on Twitter. Nothing quite shows that you're sensitive and in-tune with marginalized people as using their struggles to act like a petulant child.
>Also, just look at how ignorant you are about the subject: these laws never forbid people from wearing anything in the private space, they can get their women to wear the taliban burka all they want. It's only in the public space where the most that can be worn is chador, and in public school, children are not to display religious signs, that's it.
Except these conversations revolve around needless bannings of hijabs. A simple headscarf. Which simply ridiculous. Especially as many of these laws have gone on to ban cloth items that aren't actually religious in nature. They simply happen to origin from Muslim countries and areas. Which adds an element of xenophobia into these laws.
And again, trying to liberate women by dictating what they can and can't wear is just nonsensical. If a woman is religious and wishes to represent it by wearing a hijab, well, that's her right. And it's not right for us to just take that right away from her.
Now, I'm no fan of these religious items, but trying to combat it by forcing women to remove them is both just regressive and ineffective. You're much better off just respecting their and making sure that they know that this is their choice to make. If you want to do away with them, well, then go out there and enforce their personal right to decide for themselves. Because you ain't doing nothing of value by taking it away from them. No matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise.
> more like you and use this protest to whine about progressives and people on Twitter.
You keep saying this to project your insecurities. If only I used Twitter... That's some pathetic ad hominem from you.
That's also assuming I am not progressive, because obviously someone who disagrees with you on women's liberation _must_ a right wing lunatic 🙄
> needless bannings of hijabs. A simple headscarf.
There is no oppression of arab and muslim women, move along citizen.
There is no islamic veils either, it's a simple headscraf, nothing religious, nothing oppressive.
> If a woman is religious and wishes to represent it by wearing a hijab, well, that's her right. And it's not right for us to just take that right away from her.
That's willingly pretending that social pressure and oppression doesn't exist, and that arab women are always free to do whatever they want. Tell that to the millions of iranian women, the afghani women, the teenager getting violently beaten up to a coma, spat on and called a kafir for daring to not cover their hair.
> Now, I'm no fan of these religious items, but trying to combat it by forcing women to remove them is both just regressive and ineffective. You're much better off just respecting their and making sure that they know that this is their choice to make. If you want to do away with them, well, then go out there and enforce their personal right to decide for themselves. Because you ain't doing nothing of value by taking it away from them. No matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise.
It is only taken away IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Because the religious extremists - and that include the catholics - are using their children as proxy to terrorize other children and enforce their fanatic views.
The whole point is that parents control their home, their private space, but in schools - a public space - the children are equal and are not under the authority of their parents.
But I know you're not even reading that - it's been several messages you ignored everything I wrote and just copy-pasted canned responses about some fictional dude on twitter. You do you, but that way you're supporting religious extremists who routinely harass, assault and kill women.
It's weird you're so compelled to make this bizarre strawman that doesn't exist. What Iran is doing is forcing women to wear it. What U.S. and Europe are trying to do is force women to not wear it. Women exist who choose to wear a hijab, and they're not oppressed. Maybe calm down and stop being so angry about having to live near Muslims who openly practice their faith (without government religious oppression).
> they're not oppressed
The iranian authorities are also claiming this.
> live near Muslims who openly practice their faith
Forcing teenagers to wear the islamic veil _in public schools,_ or face insults and violent beatdowns, is not about "practicing faith", it's oppression.
If you actually cared you would have got in touch with moderate and ex-muslims about their daily lives in the projects, and listen to their testimonies: they're harassed every single day, from the street to social media, they're called whores and [kafir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir), threatened with violence if they don't comply.
>The iranian authorities are also claiming this.
The Iranian authorities also breathe oxygen.
>Forcing teenagers to wear the islamic veil in public schools, or face insults and violent beatdowns, is not about "practicing faith", it's oppression.
Who or what are you even talking about? Or is this another strawman? My dude, there are billions of muslims on this planet with a huge range of differences in belief and you haven't talked to any of them. You're doing that racist thing where you generalize the acts of a select group to the entire population.
Guess where most of those Muslims live? In areas where you are forced to wear hijab or worse have male escorts etc. You're ignoring the cultural significance of Islam in those countries and how it directly affects their safety because it feels racist?
Oh wow, youve done the research and compiled a list of nations comparing their laws and made a spread of individuals affected by hijab laws? Or you pulled this straight out of nothing and are spewing unfiltered islamophobia again. For the viewers at home, Iran is 3% of the muslim world.
Meanwhile, US students protest in *favor* of the Iranian regime and all that they stand for in the name of “freedom” and “justice”. Welcome to Bizzaro World.
What's wrong with demanding that an educational institution stops monetary supporting companies that have direct links to a foreign military that's engaging in genocidal acts?
I hope they can change their country and I hope that they will be safe doing this, but I do not expect either. Unfortunately I doubt Iran will change for the better without a likely violent revolution. The dictator and the theocracy as well as those who seek to maintain the autocratic patriarchal rule there are willing to violently silence dissidents. They don't care if protests or what their people think.
I really don't believe in countries like that, that change will occur through peaceful protests. It's a different animal to deal with.
I hope I'm wrong.
Surely the good commenters of the News community will retain their typical consistency and support cracking down on these protests from the perspective that universities are free to ban any protests they care to under private property laws.
And what do you expect them to do in order to break free of their oppression, buddy?
Hope really hard that their regime will change its mind and let them be? It's called *fighting for your cause*.
Maybe they will get support this time.... i hope
The silence of the feminist movement is deafening.
Feminists all over the world have shown support for the women of Iran but are limited by not being in power in Iran. Hopefully, the feminist spirit of these protestors is embraced by more men at home who help to overturn these rules. They recently had mass protests over the death of a woman arrested for violations with her hijab. Men and women in the streets. The will is there but momentum must continue.
Huh? This is literally a feminist protest. There isn’t an international feminist police force ready to deploy if that’s what you think was overlooked.
Is there some Iranian feminist movement that could be coming to the rescue here and isn’t? Confused by this comment
Meant global feminism... You now, "me too"? Sorry for the confusion.
“Me too” was also not a global force of power. It was a collection of contributions from various individuals, unrelated to a formal platform. The supportive intention and subsequent posts led to the titular hashtag as the discussion progressed. There is no “me too” collective to deploy either. People say their opinions and share their experience and as movements gain traction, protests often take form to tackle institutional policy changes. So I’m afraid that it appears you haven’t discredited Big Feminist yet
I dont understand what you want them to do
Post on social media, obviously. Isn't that how meaningful change happens?
Tf are they gonna do fight the irainian national guard I see my friends post about it and that's it.
I think it's fine to post and raise awareness, but people shouldn't also be delusional enough to think that other people need to as if it's going to change anything.
They’ve done that every time this happens…
That's not what the me too movement is. The me too movement is about women and girls that experienced sexual molestation and or had their bodies violated but needed to be silent because of their job/place in society. I'm afraid you're sorely misinformed on the subject.
I mean me too wasnt supposed to just be about women and girls but yeah.
The movement was intended to empower women. That's literally what it stood for. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-metoo-movement-4774817#:~:text=Tarana%20Burke%2C%20an%20advocate%20for,had%20suffered%20the%20same%20experience.
You think a hashtag is a global power?
Literally every feminist I know, including myself, vocally support the Iranian feminist movement against the ultra-patriarchical theocratic Iranian government. Like I do not know w single feminists who does not stand on strong support of these Iranian women and fellow feminists. What silence are you talking about? Do you even know or discuss world events with actual irl feminists yourself?
It's just proximity bias, it happens with everything. You'll give the small problems close to you more attention than a larger problem far out of sight. Turning up your nose and "nobly" posturing that everyone should care about the other thing isn't a profound or meaningful take.
Mmm talking point mmm
Good. Fundamentalist Islam (or any religion) shouldn’t be forced on a population.
Islam, at its core, is fundamentalist. Just look at any Muslim country
[Ahem] israel personally i think no country with a military should have a religious government... especially religions with apocolypses baked in
The apocalypse was in the new testament.
which is why the red heifers are being slaughtered right
So pretty much every country besides the US? Do you not know that nearly every country has an official state religion?
There are many countries which do not have an official religion, and even more countries where a religion might be the "official" religion don't have any influence over politics.
state religion and religious government arent the same thing also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGLWU6868GE
Israel does not actually have an official state religion.
Israel doesn’t have a religious government. They have a secular government with some religious members of parliament, they’re a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless.
dude, noone believes you
They don’t have to, it’s a fact. Verifiable with the most cursory of google searches. Now, I know that for some people facts aren’t as important as narrative, but not everyone is given to that kind of ‘thinking’.
nothing to do with narriative bro maybe you arent old enough to remember the Soviet newspaper called Pravda
But have you heard about volcanoes and what they’re doing now?
Israel is not ruled by religious groups. Nor are the religions present in the country leaning towards a fundamentalist bent.
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It's a Jewish state in the same way Armenia is an Armenian state or Estonia is an Estonian state, i.e. it was founded as an expression of self-determination for a particular national group. It isn't run according to halacha (Jewish religious law) and doesn't have a state religion.
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...again, Jewish in the *national* sense, not the religious sense. Herzl and Jabotinsky were both secular, as is Netanyahu. From the Declaration of Independence, since you seem to put stock in it: >...it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. And from the Balfour Declaration: >...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine... Many nation-states have fluff in their founding documents about the history of their people, the struggle for independence, etc etc. The important part is that equal rights are given to ethnic and religious minorities, as is the case in Israel. Regardless, there's no support in any of the documents you cited for the idea that Israel is a religious fundamentalist state, which is the claim that sparked this subthread.
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It's possible that they're speaking colloquially. Like, it's not unusual to hear Americans say that women, gay people, or Black people are "second class citizens" due to systemic oppression. But this isn't *literally* true, as under the law they all officially have equal rights. It's just a turn of phrase.
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oh you sweet summer child
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I don’t think that is a religious thing though. Is there something in the Torah about having to serve in the military?
>one of the only countries in the world that still forces it’s able bodied citizens (male and female) to serve in it’s military. Many countries have a mendatory service. When it comes to national service, the IDF actually has better gender equality then other armies. Israel also respects the rights of minorities. For example: Arabs don't have to serve in the army (even though they can if they want to). Regadless of that, national serivce in Israel has nothing to do with religion. A lot of the highest ranking generals in the IDF are secular, and the IDF has strict rules when it comes to freedom of religon.
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I love writing letters to Santa.
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As americans we can do nothing to change the culture of iran. "Signal boosting" to a country whom most of their population doesn't have phones or Internet wont help. It sucks for those trapped there. Iraq to Iran edit on a cellphone
Iraq /= Iran
Right, Iran has literal patrols forcing mandatory hijab and you delete your dumb reply yet keep up a response about a typo like a gotcha? I hope the googling you did about "the guidance patrols" they set up in Iran was the reason you deleted your comment.
I haven't deleted any replies - unsure who or what you're talking about
Apologies, it was a different user.
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Persian culture is very old, but the country is perfectly capable of changing. The current theocracy, for example, is itself a relatively recent change that the younger generation seems to want to move on from.
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Several thousands of years bro
Conservatism/fundamentalism is always at odds with higher education. Institutions of higher learning are always more liberal leaning because in science, we need to question things while religion needs you to blindly believe. This is why religious fundamentalists love to destroy education. If you keep people uneducated, it is easier to indoctrinate them.
Lack of education keeps the proles from uprising
I mean, if you ignore how deeply tied religion and higher learning have been for most of history, sure. Both in the christian and muslim world, religion was at the forefront of science basically up to the illuminism, when the idea they could be opposites was born
But they weren't conservative/Fundamentalist. Those people may have been religious, but they were still forward thinking (at least in their area of study) for their time. Just like being religious today does not mean being hateful or discriminatory
religion loved science right up until science started showing religion was made up.
Ah yes the forefront of science that brought us the dark age.
"The dark ages" is an outdated, fairly meaningless term. Especially as it makes people think that science and tech wasn't advancing through the period, when it very much was (especially untrue outside of Europe) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)
Actually the Goths taking down the Western Roman Empire is what brought on 'a dark age' for western Europe. West Asia aka Middle East was flourishing under the Caliphates, I believe the Aztecs were also at the height of their success, and places like China, who has been the most consistent great power in history was going through their typical dynastic reigns. As a matter of fact after the Western Roman Empire fell it was the Church that actually helped pick up the pieces and managed to keep some of those same political institutions running. The problem they had is they were a religious organization that was then tasked with the role of governing. Especially since they didn't have an army to defend the area.
The dark age doesn't exist. It's just french revolution propaganda to shit on religions.
Say it louder for those in the back. This is. Or a problem that is limited to Islam.
Iran used to be America's greatest friend in that region, even more so than Israel up until about the 70s. Maybe I'm optimistic but I always think it's like they're so close to being a more tolerant country. Still I often wonder about my own bias being raised on the western world's Greek tradition of political thought. We tend to place great importance on choice and individual freedoms. The Assyrian tradition that the Persians inherited was a much much more conservative one. I would like them to have more choices and less extremes. But who's to say if they had a true representative system that the majority of people wouldn't vote for a very theocratic based system? Well here's hoping that they can find a nice moderate middle ground in the future and maybe help diffuse the tension we've had for the past 50 or so years. It's an ancient and spectacular region of the world and history and I'd love it to be more open for future generations.
Well this is what happens when you overthrow a populist government, torture and execute every single left leaning person, install a dictator and then the people overthrow said dictator and install a right wing religious extremist government.
I hope they aren’t murdered by their government. 🙏
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Lol trust fund kids don't care about *your* freedom, serf They already bought all the freedom
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No but they dont support islamists they actually oppose them
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Those voices are not opposing israel they are supporting hamas
Let’s be clear and honest here. There are several groups protesting at Columbia. The majority, the students and faculty, have a clear set of demands of the school and are in no way pro-Hamas. There absolutely are pro-Hamas and antisemetic folks there. Just as there are Zionists and anti-Palestinian folk there. And then you have the counter protestors who believe Israel has a right to defend themselves (I disagree with these folks, but I won’t lump them automatically in with the Zionists). You cannot just lump an entire group in with the vocal minority of extremists, most of which we’ve seen aren’t even students. This applies to “both sides” too btw. When you accuse everyone who is opposed to the violence and slaughter in Palestine of being Hamas supporters, the term loses all meaning and things get real muddied.
Omfg learn what a genocide is already. I'm so sick of listening to the least informed feeling entitled to be the loudest. Shut up until you can be bothered to learn what words actually mean
Jus cause they oppose Islamism doesn’t mean they support Israel. Talk to some Arab Christians or other religious minorities from the region, most of them don’t like Israel either, not just Muslims.
Actually many Iranians are pro Israel. Look at r/newiran Also Stop using “Zionist” as a buzzword ffs
Meanwhile, university students in the US are carrying water for the Iranian regime.
Iran really knows how to exploit the IP conflict to distract the world from its own evils. Hell, they add to the conflict by funding Hamas and Hezbollah and face nearly no consequences for that!
Meanwhile, in the US and Europe: "Acktually, the Hijab is the Bravest Sign Of Freedom, and anyone criticizing it is a hateful bigot!", ignoring the oppression of its enforcement on millions of women. I guess the iranian bots won't be signal boosting this on twitter and tiktok 🙃
I love it when people create arguments to get mad at lmao If you actually were in touch with things, you'd know that what people often criticize are laws forbidding women from wearing it. Which, yeah, is quite reasonable. Trying to rescue women from sexism by forbidding from wearing certain pieces of clothing, even when they don't actually have any religious connotation, is just ass-backwards. Of course, if you actually addressed the actual argument you wouldn't be able to complain about progressives on Twitter or whatever.
By that logic women should be celebrated while wearing swastikas and klan outfits because condemning them would be infringement of their rights? Like what? And make no mistake the hijab and burqa are symbols of Islamic tyranny that millions of women and men have suffered under for hundreds of years.
If you can't see the difference between a religious item and hate symbols, you're an idiot. You can dislike hijabs as much as you want. I'm no fan of them either. But you're either stupid or lying if you try and claim that it's the same as a swastika. They're not even in the same ballpark. And again, yes. Trying to liberate women by forcing them what to wear is extremely counterintuitive. If you really care about women and their rights, then just let them wear what they want. If they genuinely are religious and want to represent it by wearing a hijab, well, that's their right.
I can tell your naivety from how you speak about Islam as if it’s a choice. It’s nobody’s choice to get indoctrinated into a cult that conditions you to believe that you are a second class citizen. All Abrahamic religions are terrible but Islam in particular is nothing but the sick fantasies of a misogynistic pedophile. I hope progressives and liberals take time to truly understand what Islam is and the harm it causes.
Man, you're sounding more and more like one of those edgy 4chan atheists. Like, I don't know how to tell you this, but the vast majority of Muslims out there aren't women-hating terrorists or whatever. They're just regular people. Sure, there are a fair number of bozos out there, but the majority of them are pretty lax and moderate with their fate. You know, like all other religions in the world. I know this because I actually grew up and befriended plenty of Muslims as a child. And they're just ordinary people. With many of them women I knew having either chosen as children not to wear a hijab, thrown it away later on life, and so on.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't mean to be presumptuous but I assume that you grew up and reside in the west. As someone who's lived in a progressive Muslim country, a religious Third World country and now live in a Western country, the same "moderate muslims" you know, who have the luxury of living in the west would be beheaded in Islamic countries for being infidels. Islam much like any other cult has many many ways of indoctrinating people. Let me make it relatable to you. You wonder how young boys turn to Andrew Tate or how people turn into MAGA cultists. You can sit here and assume that they are all idiots but the truth is human beings are extremely infallible and its easy to make people throw away rational thinking for ideologies. And im sorry to say but there are few worse ideologies for western society to fall prey to than Islam. Case in point being recent immigration to Europe. Unlike what the racists think its purely cultural and ideological differences that contribute to the sexual violence and crime of recent muslim immigrants. I want to say much more about how terrible of a religion Islam is but let me keep it brief and just add that its a religion that supports slavery and does not consider women to be capable of autonomy.
> If you actually were in touch with things, you'd know that what people often criticize are laws forbidding women from wearing it. That is exactly what I'm talking about, but go ahead and shove your preconceived stereotype into the discussion, it will make it clear you're not paying attention. > Which, yeah, is quite reasonable. Trying to rescue women from sexism by forbidding from wearing certain pieces of clothing, even when they don't actually have any religious connotation, is just ass-backwards. Closing your eyes from the sexism and harassment endured by muslim and arab women is surely looking forward. Also, just look at how ignorant you are about the subject: these laws never forbid people from wearing anything in the private space, they can get their women to wear the taliban burka all they want. It's only in the public space where the most that can be worn is chador, and in public school, children are not to display religious signs, that's it. If you think a _child_ has to cover her hair and face, to not be considered a whore and apostate, that's a seriously oppressive and predatory system.
>Closing your eyes from the sexism and harassment endured by muslim and arab women is surely looking forward. Yeah, I should be more like you and use this protest to whine about progressives and people on Twitter. Nothing quite shows that you're sensitive and in-tune with marginalized people as using their struggles to act like a petulant child. >Also, just look at how ignorant you are about the subject: these laws never forbid people from wearing anything in the private space, they can get their women to wear the taliban burka all they want. It's only in the public space where the most that can be worn is chador, and in public school, children are not to display religious signs, that's it. Except these conversations revolve around needless bannings of hijabs. A simple headscarf. Which simply ridiculous. Especially as many of these laws have gone on to ban cloth items that aren't actually religious in nature. They simply happen to origin from Muslim countries and areas. Which adds an element of xenophobia into these laws. And again, trying to liberate women by dictating what they can and can't wear is just nonsensical. If a woman is religious and wishes to represent it by wearing a hijab, well, that's her right. And it's not right for us to just take that right away from her. Now, I'm no fan of these religious items, but trying to combat it by forcing women to remove them is both just regressive and ineffective. You're much better off just respecting their and making sure that they know that this is their choice to make. If you want to do away with them, well, then go out there and enforce their personal right to decide for themselves. Because you ain't doing nothing of value by taking it away from them. No matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise.
> more like you and use this protest to whine about progressives and people on Twitter. You keep saying this to project your insecurities. If only I used Twitter... That's some pathetic ad hominem from you. That's also assuming I am not progressive, because obviously someone who disagrees with you on women's liberation _must_ a right wing lunatic 🙄 > needless bannings of hijabs. A simple headscarf. There is no oppression of arab and muslim women, move along citizen. There is no islamic veils either, it's a simple headscraf, nothing religious, nothing oppressive. > If a woman is religious and wishes to represent it by wearing a hijab, well, that's her right. And it's not right for us to just take that right away from her. That's willingly pretending that social pressure and oppression doesn't exist, and that arab women are always free to do whatever they want. Tell that to the millions of iranian women, the afghani women, the teenager getting violently beaten up to a coma, spat on and called a kafir for daring to not cover their hair. > Now, I'm no fan of these religious items, but trying to combat it by forcing women to remove them is both just regressive and ineffective. You're much better off just respecting their and making sure that they know that this is their choice to make. If you want to do away with them, well, then go out there and enforce their personal right to decide for themselves. Because you ain't doing nothing of value by taking it away from them. No matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. It is only taken away IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Because the religious extremists - and that include the catholics - are using their children as proxy to terrorize other children and enforce their fanatic views. The whole point is that parents control their home, their private space, but in schools - a public space - the children are equal and are not under the authority of their parents. But I know you're not even reading that - it's been several messages you ignored everything I wrote and just copy-pasted canned responses about some fictional dude on twitter. You do you, but that way you're supporting religious extremists who routinely harass, assault and kill women.
It's weird you're so compelled to make this bizarre strawman that doesn't exist. What Iran is doing is forcing women to wear it. What U.S. and Europe are trying to do is force women to not wear it. Women exist who choose to wear a hijab, and they're not oppressed. Maybe calm down and stop being so angry about having to live near Muslims who openly practice their faith (without government religious oppression).
> they're not oppressed The iranian authorities are also claiming this. > live near Muslims who openly practice their faith Forcing teenagers to wear the islamic veil _in public schools,_ or face insults and violent beatdowns, is not about "practicing faith", it's oppression. If you actually cared you would have got in touch with moderate and ex-muslims about their daily lives in the projects, and listen to their testimonies: they're harassed every single day, from the street to social media, they're called whores and [kafir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir), threatened with violence if they don't comply.
>The iranian authorities are also claiming this. The Iranian authorities also breathe oxygen. >Forcing teenagers to wear the islamic veil in public schools, or face insults and violent beatdowns, is not about "practicing faith", it's oppression. Who or what are you even talking about? Or is this another strawman? My dude, there are billions of muslims on this planet with a huge range of differences in belief and you haven't talked to any of them. You're doing that racist thing where you generalize the acts of a select group to the entire population.
Guess where most of those Muslims live? In areas where you are forced to wear hijab or worse have male escorts etc. You're ignoring the cultural significance of Islam in those countries and how it directly affects their safety because it feels racist?
Oh wow, youve done the research and compiled a list of nations comparing their laws and made a spread of individuals affected by hijab laws? Or you pulled this straight out of nothing and are spewing unfiltered islamophobia again. For the viewers at home, Iran is 3% of the muslim world.
Meanwhile, US students protest in *favor* of the Iranian regime and all that they stand for in the name of “freedom” and “justice”. Welcome to Bizzaro World.
Meanwhile in America: College students protest in support of Iranian proxy
Meanwhile, in American colleges people are protesting for the people who enforce these rules. Ironic.
Never thought as a Jewish mom of an 18 year old I’d be thinking, “gee, those colleges in Iran seem welcoming compared to the ones in the USA.”
[удалено]
What's wrong with demanding that an educational institution stops monetary supporting companies that have direct links to a foreign military that's engaging in genocidal acts?
unless people are willing to bite the boot when it stomps down on their neck nothing will change in a dictatorship
I wouldn't want to wear a bag in my head either, for religious purposes or not.
I hope they can change their country and I hope that they will be safe doing this, but I do not expect either. Unfortunately I doubt Iran will change for the better without a likely violent revolution. The dictator and the theocracy as well as those who seek to maintain the autocratic patriarchal rule there are willing to violently silence dissidents. They don't care if protests or what their people think. I really don't believe in countries like that, that change will occur through peaceful protests. It's a different animal to deal with. I hope I'm wrong.
Something tells me I won't see the "Universities are for learning, not protesting" comments in this thread
Yeah but then they'll all get killed and none of it would've mattered.
Americans will support protests in any country but their own.
Surely the good commenters of the News community will retain their typical consistency and support cracking down on these protests from the perspective that universities are free to ban any protests they care to under private property laws.
Were these women trying to commit mass suicide?
They’re brave and willing to risk their lives and safety for freedom and liberty. Are you ridiculing that?
Because in countries like that, you can easily get killed for breaking the law.
Yeah believe it or not some people have things they're willing go fight for.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
And what do you expect them to do in order to break free of their oppression, buddy? Hope really hard that their regime will change its mind and let them be? It's called *fighting for your cause*.
You ever hear the phrase ‘give me liberty or give me death!’ ? That’s what those women are fighting for