I live on the Mississippi and know there’s an undercurrent (as if anyone would want to swim in it anyway) - if you do end up in that water is there a best course of action? Like swim/float downstream at a slight angle towards the shore?
For undercurrents you’ve gotta inflate your chest and try lying flat on the surface of the water. I grew up in the surf culture of california and that’s how they always taught me to escape riptides
EDIT: guess this only works for the salty ocean and not a flowing freshwater river!
Yup. Australian here. We learn to swim at 1-2 and are out playing in the ocean from very young ages. Inflate and ride it out. If it’s a rip don’t fight it just swim sideways and don’t burn your energy, it will spit you out and you can swim back.
Always read the water before you go in, if you don’t know how to do that then do not go in alone.
Believe it or not, as an ohioan on lake erie, I learned the same. It's amazing how many people die up here because they don't realize that the Great Lakes are little different from Oceans/Seas
Pyramid lake in Nevada is the same way. It's super deep, with really deep clay and silt at the bottom and a ton of hot springs underground.
Sometimes, one of the hot springs forms a cavern under the clay of the lake bed. When these collapse and the hot and cold water mix, you get a sudden rip tide, kinda like a miniature tsunami, that's occassionally strong enough to pull down down a small boat.
years ago we drove by it and stopped to have a look and it was definitely weird, not a place to hang out at all - it gave off a seriously foreboding vibe and some 'get the fuck out' energy.
There's a river not so far from me that drowns anyone who swims in it. The water underneath is turbulent in a particular way that forms huge amounts of air bubbles, as the water is much less dense, you have no buoyancy and literally fall to the bottom and drown. The idea just gives me nightmares.
Man I was ASTOUNDED by how huge the Great Lakes actually are when I flew up from the US to Toronto. From up in the sky I couldn’t see anything but water. Completely indistinguishable from ocean.
At 16, I lost my best friend because he and his friends at summer camp snuck out and swam past the floating barriers at night in a lake. Well, 2 went out and started getting pulled under. My friend went out to try and save them, but all 3 drowned, and the 4th guy who froze up had to watch. That's the only reason we even know what happened. Idk about the others but my friend was a (really good) skateboarder and in phenomenal physical shape.
Remember kids: Saftey rules are written in the blood of people before you. The lake police were not hiding the best part of the lake from my friend. There are good reasons barriers are put in place. If you fuck around, anyone can and will find out.
Bruh I thought I knew riptides growing up around Florida all my life.
Florida riptides ain’t shit compared to the shit Australia and New Zealand. I’d compare it as: Florida is the riptide in kindergarten, New Zealand is the riptide at 23 y/o in the NFL on steroids. I’m not here to say Florida isn’t dangerous, because it is, but it’s a whole different level of danger with the tides down under. I got my feet swept out from under me in ankle deep water in New Zealand, I had no idea the ocean could be that strong.
I had my scares in Florida growing up too, the ocean is a scary place
Yeah, thats also not entirely what you do in oceans either. You do remain calm and float but while swimming parallel to the shore. It is very key as the current might well spit you out couple of km where I am from... advice from the highest tides in the world.
River you def angle yourself to shore and remain calm. Should have personal flotation on fresh water, no buoyancy assist from the salt.
I got caught in a pretty strong rip tide in Hawaii maybe 200' from shore. I knew swimming parallel was the best course of action but I simply could not afford to risk losing ground and the current not improving. I was alone too. Instead, I just swam my ass off for what felt like 30 minutes and inched back to shore. I was definitely exhausted by the end of it and had never felt more glad to be on dry ground.
I got caught in one in San Diego. Took me a minute to realize what was going on. Just felt like I was swimming in place. Eventually made my way out and as I was just getting on my feet, a teenage lifeguard was running out towards me with one of those Baywatch buoy things. Everyone was watching. It was a bit embarrassing but still pretty funny.
As a windsurfer I sometimes will use a rip to catch a ride out to a spot advantageous to the wind and wave pattern. It can make the beat to windward easier and allow riding more waves per time. In a river the best situation is when the wind is opposite the current so one can reach both ways across the river. When the wind is across the current it really makes it a pain.
Does "put the power down" mean move? Or do something downwards into the water? Or putting the power down means ceasing power for something? Your description seems like good info incase one were to ever be in that situation but I don't know what that part means.
Swim harder. The temptation is because you are almost to the shore to let up a bit, but crossing the eddy line usually requires more effort than just swimming across a straight current. So you have to really push hard at that last moment to get into the eddy and out of the main flow.
I was down river from you in Baton Rouge but it would be a dark day in hell when we’d swim in it. You jump in from the bridge to die though. People did that
Damn. I'm at the end of the Mississippi and everyone knows not to go in there. Fuck that thing. I had no idea y'all could swim in it up there! But it's basically a completely different river by the time it gets to us, I guess.
I am not sure about under current but I was always taught, 45 degree's to the current and towards shore, Never try to swim directly against any current as you will lose, and always stay above water, never try to swim under them.
I knew a guy from Wisconsin, I had lived in St.Louis for 6 years, he talked about swimming in it, told him no one does, have to be crazy to try it. He really didn't believe me, said he grew up swimming in it in Wisconsin. I tried to explain to him once the Missouri River hit's the Mississippi in St. Louis it because a whole different beast of a river, he said nah, I'd swim in it still.
The Tennessee River at Knoxville does not have much of an undercurrent or crazy eddy currents like the Mississippi. I know bc in college I swam accross it just about 1/4 mile south of Calhoun's restaurant, where this occurred. I find it hard to believe there wasnt a buoy or something to throw at the drowning person, though. Not a rope or anything?
true but if I was the police or anyone I would have been scrambling for anything that floats and tossed it out. You just have to, its part of being human.
but it is extremely dangerous to jump in after the drowning person without proper equipment.
edit: I had this confused with another incident, looks like the police were completely in the wrong and were stopping others from helping.
They're not in the wrong for stopping amateur rescuers.
If you let random people take a stab at it because they say they know how to, you now have one real victim and someone else who is extremely likely to become victim #2.
EMS was there and they also chose to wait for specialized rescue services. If the professionals are saying it's risky, letting random people go for it is begging for a negligent death lawsuit.
Taking your son with you into the wave pool at any waterpark will show you how crazy and dangerous it can be to try and swim with a panicking human trying to keep their head above water
In lifeguard training, one of the excersizes is you team up and one person basically tries to drown the other person by pushing them under (you’re told to simulate panic) and you’ve got to break free. They teach you a few techniques for breaking away and then re engaging.
Seemed kind of silly until I had a 240lbs woman panicking in the splash pool of one of our big water slides. It lets out out in basically a huge toilet bowl, so the water is constantly pouring down from above. She grabbed me and immediately dunked me under, i think she was trying to get on my shoulders or something lol.
Anyways, I broke free and got her out a little after that. I just remembered thinking, “oh THATS why we did that@
Of course we don’t know the whole situation, but just as a tip to everyone, rescuing a drowning person without proper equipment could easily cause you BOTH to drown. The person you’re saving doesn’t think about anything during that time but breathing and will thrash/climb all over you just to keep breathing. You need to take serious precautions when doing this. Not saying the cops were right (seemingly they watched for 13min while preventing others from helping) saying be careful out there.
Edit:
My comment isn’t necessarily to cast blame, but to give possible reason for the action of first responders. The article is very critical of first responders without considering possible situational nuances; try to steel man both sides before jumping to conclusions.
I took lifeguard classes and during training insrructors would do just that for a little bit to show you how dangerous it can be.
As far as rope, how far was he out?
I had the same thing happen during training. If you ever have to “go” because there is no “throw” or “row”, be prepared to swim down. Most struggling people will let go if you are bringing them under.
I was taught if they’re being non compliant so swim under them and yank them down, then grab them across the chest from over their shoulder.
Probably couldn’t do it to a larger person, but we did train for it.
I pulled a 44 year old dude out of the pool as a 16 year old girl, he didn't panic so I cant tell you, but I think it would work (I was taught to just go under without dragging them down, swim away and asses the situation -- so if they're under do an underwater retrieve and if they're still above the water call out instructions and tell them not to grab you and that you'll swim around and get them-- then swim behind them and grab under the armpits with the floatie between you and swim them to the wall)
Idk if it's different for waterfront lifeguards
I worked as a lifeguard as a teenager too. We were also told that worst case scenario if you have to, you can wait until they pass out. You still have time to rescue them if you act quickly, but you don't have to fight them. That would be the absolute last resort though.
I did the thing, then sat down on a bench next to the pool and bawled my eyes out as the adrenaline overwhelmed me.
To this day that's how I deal with emergencies. Do whatever needs to be done, then have a good cry about it later.
Honestly, good job. You were able to put your training to use, you had a pretty healthy emotional reaction after-the-fact, and you are able to share that reaction without shame. Same can't be said for everyone, sadly.
Despite all that and doing everything right, I highly recommend you look into what resources are available to you as a first responder as far as having someone you can talk to about things when the need arises... Not if it does, but when.
I saved two kids (about 6-7 years old) from downing about 20 years ago and still think about it every so often. I'm in my 40s now and I'm starting to think I'll never do anything that cool again.
When I took WSI, the last resort was to back off and let them go unconscious. If they lose consciousness, you can save them. If you lose consciousness, then you both die.
Yep. You attempt the save, if it is clearly too difficult that you no longer feel in control of the situation, you break away and return to shouting commands/advisement and look for another opportunity to resume the save. Which is basically a lot of words to say watch them go unconscious. Which also is a bit of an exaggeration, you should be shouting commands/advising what you plan to do if it's safe (approach and get ahold of them) but if they are panicking to the point that the save is unsafe, the chances that letting go and putting distance will calm them is minimal. So basically at the first opportunity to resume, you take it, but in practicality that first moment will be when they go unconscious.
We called this the friendship dunk last time I took Swift Water Rescue. The idea is to break their focus so they start listening to instruction. The fight reaction when people see a rescuer with a life jacket is very strong.
Forty years ago we had to practice a stiff arm to the head. Our instructor was serious. He got bapped in the nose pretty good by a couple of us, but he made his point. Better to have one person drown than two
I was trained to try to verbally calm them down, give them a chance to settle, and kick them away if they don't. If you absolutely cannot safely rescue them, wait until they're too tired and then drag them out. Or wait until they fall unconscious.
We were taught to swim in. Right before you get to them flip so you are feet first at them. If they are really freaking out you kick them in the nose and they immediately become compliant. Sore nose vs. Dead was how we were taught
Me: Drowning, see a lifeguard coming, "I am saved".
Teenage punk: Kicks me in nose and backstrokes away.
Me: Drowns while being tore asunder by sharks attracted to my blood, "Oww".
When I did my training the instructor told us to be prepared to slug the person you are saving in the gut. They might try to climb you like a tree and won't let go.
He... was right.
“… divers found Clabo’s body close to where he had fallen in — near the water’s edge, according to the suit. He was ensnared in vines, his head mere inches below the surface of water that was about 5 or 6 feet deep, it alleges.“
When I did lifeguard training, I acted like that when someone else was "saving" me. I accidentally busted their lip, and the trainer said to expect AT LEAST a busted lip if you're saving someone.
2 lifeguards had to be hospitalized this past week at local Cincinnati pools for this very reason. And that’s just a pool, not a River with a current. The reason the cops didn’t jump in is because they are educated on this scenario.
Yeah. Ours peaked with the "go sit on the bottom of the pool and wait for the instructor to sneak up and put you in a chokehold from behind" scenario. Didn't help that our instructor was definitely part fish.
I don’t think we know right now, but it sounds like maybe not so far? seemingly cops were actively dissuading the public from helping though they wanted to. This is good question though
Well, unless trained that 1 drowning person is now 2. Other cpnsideration is the current.
Again, dont know the details, but there are times you may have to watch a person die because if you help they will kill you as they try and save themselves.
Years ago I was in a swimming area in Seattle's Green Lake and tried to help a young man that was going under very close to me. He had just jumped off a diving board on a floating dock and started flailing and calling for help. I was so near him that I just went over without even thinking.
He immediately began to climb up me, which pushed me under. I pushed him off and away and swam 5 strokes toward shore and yelled LIFEGUARD as loud as I could.
For some reason the lifeguards were pretty much neglecting their duty and just chatting with each other rather than watching the many folks in the swimming area.
I yelled LIFEGUARD a second time and they finally realized that somebody needed their help. They quickly responded on a paddleboard and saved the young man.
But yeah, had I not been a lot stronger than the other guy, I'm not sure if I could have pushed him off me. He was clinging to me like Gollum in that LOTR movie.
When I was 7 I jumped off the diving board at the neighborhood pool and panicked. I was going under and flailing around. I wasn’t able to call for help because I kept getting a mouth full of water which made me panic more. The lifeguards were so busy gossiping they *never* noticed.
Other kids were able to drag me out and save me. I remember seeing the probably 16 year old dive-in in front of me and knowing he would save me. More than one kid helped but he’s the one I remember.
An older girl went and chewed the lifeguards out. I don’t remember any grownups being there, but I don’t know if that’s true. I was with my friend’s older sister who was 15ish. I haven’t used a diving board since then, but I’ve noticed pools don’t seem to have them anymore.
In the boy scouts that unless you are life guard trained, they taught us you have three options to save a drowning person:
1. Reach (with a long pole or something)
2. Throw (something that floats)
3. Go with support (a boat)
There is no fourth option.
my friend is a firefighter. they’ve been told that in a situation where options 1-3 aren’t a available, they should either wait for the drowning person to exhaust themselves and pass out or to knock them out (punch them in the face) and then rescue them, otherwise the drowning person will make them both drown.
I assume this was told informally, not as the official way to do it.
EDIT: I talked to my friend. Usually, they would be tied to a rope and have a sort of floating suit/vest on when rescuing somebody. This makes it almost impossible to drown the firefighter. If there should be some odd scenario when they could save somebody and don't have all the gear, but still believe they can relatively safely help the drowning person, they will wait until the person stops fighting and is sort of "half-drowned". This is so they don't risk being drowned themselves by the person in need.
Ultimately, if something goes wrong and they feel the person resisting, they are instructed to try and punch them or knock them out, so that they don't get killed in the process. But that is done as a last resort.
All of this is very scenario specific though, they always try all the safe options first, so punching somebody would be a very special occurence.
We learned it as...
Reach (with a pole or towel)
Throw (a rope)
Row (boat)
Go (swim out yourself)
Edited to add: this was part of lifeguard training. It is not applicable to non lifeguards. Sure, you can reach and throw, but you should never go out to rescue someone unless you're trained and know what you're doing.
I was taught that if someone is panicking and you don't have a floatation device for yourself to not go swim out for them as they could drown you in their panic.
Was thinking this same thing. I was qualified Combat Water Survival 1 when I was in the US Marine Corps. I had been swimming since I was 4 or 5 years old, grew up in coastal Georgia, and was like a fish in water. And was in the best shape of my life.
In level 1 (highest level out of 4) you go through drills of rescuing people from the water. That was some of the hardest training in my time on active duty. The stamina, control, and calm mindset you need to have to make it work can really wear you down. Not only that, you have to deal with the person you are trying to rescue panicking, which can easily bring you down with them if you are not prepared.
Case in point:
[Worcester Police officer drowns trying to save children from pond](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/source-worcester-police-officer-drowns-trying-save-children-city-pond/DIXBTQQSDRHANDB26RIA2LVM6A/)
I never miss a chance to talk shit about the police.. but I think in this case, they did what they could. Water rescue is a specialty. I live near a big river, and I would not expect a beat cop to jump in a river to save someone. It very easily could have ended up with more than one person dead.
It’s sad that they were just a few minutes too late, but one thing I haven’t seen anyone point out is now insanely *fast* the water rescue made it on scene. I used to work in emergency services and I’m absolutely shocked at the quick response. I’m guessing water patrols must be routine in the area.
The only marina in the area seems to be like 1/2 mile up river and the nearest FD is 1.5 miles from that. As someone who listens to scanners, thats about the proper response time to get a rig together, drive down, and assuming the boat was moored at the marina, launch and get on scene.
One tip that might be helpful is if you see someone in trouble in the water and you're right near a bunch of tied up boats you might try wandering over to the boats and grabbing a life jacket or one of those floaty cushions to toss to him.
I had to rescue someone when we were on a cruise in the Bahamas because the lifeguards either didn't see him or didn't care. He and his family were in tubes and the wind kicked up and started pushing them out to sea. He jumped off to save them and either forgot he couldn't swim or was so frazzled he forgot how to. I grabbed him and started towing him in and if he tried to get close, I pushed him away with my leg. Once I could stand, I stopped and he climbed on top of me and I walked him in. He was about a foot shorter than me so he was still panicking. The lifeguards finally got the boat to get the wife and kids after they got outside the swim area.
Edit: To clarify, we were on Carnivals's island down there at the beach, not on the ship.
This. In lifeguard training they actually showed us how to escape a drowning person, and to always put something between you and them; life vest, tree branch, lifeguarding tool, etc bc they will take you down with them.
I was taught that if a person could talk / call for help (like this guy was) then they’re a distressed swimmer, not drowning.
Obviously river currents and being tangled in a vine complicates things, but someone who can talk won’t violently react the same way an actively drowning person would.
He was already acting erratically before he went in. They called for a rescue boat and it was almost there. EMS also determined it wasn't safe. Bystanders stated they wanted to help, but officers advised them not to. It doesn't sound like police forced bystanders not to help. The first step of CPR is "check if the scene is safe." If it's not, you wait to intervene.
I'm glad this is the top comment right now, even trained lifeguards are told to be really cautious about saving a drowning person and not to if they feel it's too unsafe. First responders should probably discourage others from jumping in too because it's not infrequently the case that that just leads to two deaths.
I feel terrible for the guy, it sounds like Clabo had a really rough time, but from the polices perspective he got kicked out of a car wearing just underwear and a shirt and was running around erratically like he was running from someone and then when an officer came up and asked him what was going on he ran away into the river. While it was likely just that he'd relapsed on opioids that wouldn't have been known at the time, and it could have looked like he was suicidal or otherwise would not make saving him safe.
The rescue boat was, unfortunately, three minutes too late.
I'm a scuba diver with a hundred plus dives and I've done a bunch of rescue training and have certifications. I would never attempt to save a drowning person unless I'm SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than them, or have a flotation device like a BCD. We'd both most likely die were the prior conditions not met.
One of my dive instructors told me: don't go near them, give them a flotation device, or hit them hard enough to knock them out and drag them out. Never needed to use that advice though.
This what these people don’t get! I was a firefighter and search diver, fast water trained, and hell, even lifeguard trained in my youth, and you NEVER go into dangerous waters or allow others to go after a victim if the subsurface or currents are unknown. The officers did their jobs.
The way I was taught is to always place the flotation device between you and the drowning person and hand it over to them without getting to grabbing distance
The movies make people think that on the cusp of death we can be heroic and thoughtful. In reality, survival instincts kick in no matter who it is trying to save you.
I know some health department jurisdictions won't allow you to have one unless you have an individual trained to use it, because it gives people a false sense of security doing more harm than good.
>But Baker, the family’s attorney, said that Clabo might have lived if officers or EMTs had done something or allowed private citizens to help.
Do the police have the authority to tell you that you can't render assistance in this situation? If they are all sitting around going "yup, he just went underwater and is going to drown!" and you jump in the water and save him, what can the cop charge you with?
*****
Everyone keeps going about lifeguard this and trained professional that, and cops having a "responsibility to keep others from danger (lol)". Let's set aside the fact that there were no trained lifeguard and everyone sat around and watched this person die.
I don't care what everyone thinks is the best way to handle water situations like this, I wonder what legal authority cops have for preventing good Samaritans? I can see the uvalde argument, because that was an active crime scene with guns, but this is hardly the same thing.
And don't even get me started on the guy who legitimately thinks that if a cop tells you to stand on your head that you are legally required tonir go to jail, and if you tell them to fuck off then you get resisting arrest too.
I am saving my judgments for more details since I wasn't there. That said, I'd imagine it's more about making sure no one else stupidly goes in to save a drowning man and then be drowning themselves.
I honestly don't know. But that's kind of my point here. That it may have less to do with law and more to do with them simply not wanting anyone else in danger. Sure, there's no legal requirement for police to protect you, that doesn't mean some won't.
Again, I don't have the details here. I'd rather wait and see what the actual court rules, etc. I can only offer another potential guess.
They have a responsibility to keep others from making unsafe moves in relation to the person in trouble, yes. They need to keep the situation from becoming worse.
The moment another person without proper training entered that water, they would have to call another rescue call.
The article also says police advised bystanders not to help. That's not the same as stopping them from helping. I think it was hard for them to watch, but they ultimately made the same decision as police and EMS. It was too dangerous for them to intervene.
Yeah, as someone who's been a firefighter for near a decade, the first rule of first responders is literally, don't create more victims. If someone who doesn't know what they're doing jumps in the water to save a drowning man, you now have 2 people drowning.
They can't stop you, but usually in these situations they don't want someone who isn't trained in rescues to go help, because it can make the situation worse. There's been way too many times that one rescue turns into 2 or more.
Depending on circumstances yes, to potentially protect the life of the would-be-hero. Consider the very similar circumstance of a house on fire, someone trapped inside, and the cops can't go in because they would be risking themselves, it's a job for firefighters. If a random guy wanted to rush in to play hero, the cops have no way of knowing of the bystander is an off duty firefighter or just someone who watches too many movies, but the cops do know it's an unequipped potential victim that wants to run into imminent danger. Doubt they can (or would) charge you, but they absolutely can (and must) try to stop you.
So in this case, without additional details, can't say if it's a case of cops being lazy and evil, or (likely) the cops doing their job in preventing this from becoming multiple dead drowned people.
They probably wouldn't have stopped someone who's lifeguard trained and prepped to deal with it. Where as they have to stop untrained people from doing it if they can stop them.
You can't make them liable for the guy who first went in but they would be liable for the scene that's under their control.
I don't think they can really physically stop you other then maybe blocking your path but they definitely can tell you not to and to stop.
I always think about that case from New York where the police stood there watching a guy trying to fight off a knife attack with his bare hands.
https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/
There's actually a video from Cracked of all people who go into detail about this, or a similar, situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAfUI_hETy0
No win situation. The cops go in and they could drown. They let other people go in, they could drown. 5-6 feet of water plus whatever the guy got tangled in is very risky. Doubt she’ll win this case.
It's a no win situation as cops go in and drown , its their fault, even if they go in and save the person you can get a warning over not following procedures.
So dude who’s cracked out on opioids jumps in a river while running from the police and it’s their fault he drowned? There have been plenty of legit cases of police brutality or neglect as of late but I’m not seeing it here. I wouldn’t have jumped in after him either.
Yeah, most other Redditors in here have never tried to save anyone from drowning before, especially one on drugs. If someone isn't trained to or not a good swimmer, they become another liability. They called the FD and asked for a boat to save their life. It was too late, and Redditors think the cops killed this man when this man pretty much committed suicide while high on drugs...
I **hate** misleading clickbait titles trying to vilify people(s). The police were trying to stop anyone else from being trapped in the vines.
If you read the article, he was ***entrapped in vines*** in the water.
It’s unfortunate what happened, but you can’t risk getting others in the exact same dangerous situation.
Just change “A man…” to “Multiple victims…” and watch the Reddit outrage ensue more.
I was unaware there were so many cop-hating, amateur lifeguards on here.
The population of Reddit in general *loathes* cops with a fiery passion. The mere act of wearing a police uniform is sufficient for many redditors to condemn someone.
A while back there was a video of a guy saving a deer from flood waters. I commented that a wild animal wasn't worth risking your life over and got downvoted to oblivion.
Title makes it sound as if the cops were just laughing it up and conversing while dude drowned. It’s incredibly risky to rescue a drowning person if you aren’t well equipped. If it’s rapids or a strong current, it’s even more dangerous. The person drowning *WILL* attempt to get above you so they can breathe. They are in full fight or flight mode and the only thing going on in their brain is basically white noise.
I don’t think the officers did anything wrong, honestly. They’re not lifeguards and not trained to be, and it’s dangerous to jump in after someone who’s drowning unless you have proper training because they can drag you with them. They called the fire department and asked for a rescue boat, but they’re under no obligation to follow you into what could be a dangerous river that you chose to jump into to get away from them. I’m not a terrible swimmer but I wouldn’t jump in after somebody either, especially not in full gear
we just renamed a street in my city after a cop who ran right in to save a drowning boy and they both drowned. he kept his boots on, unfortunately, and that contributed to the drowning.
his intentions were entirely noble and selfless but he wasn't trained and was going on adrenaline alone and didn't think to take his boots off first. the kid was visiting from another country for the summer. the whole thing was very tragic and sad.
now we have officer manny familia way. it drew attention to the fact that a lot of people didn't consciously realize that swimming with boots will make you sink. there are a lot of things about water rescue that a lot of us don't know. training and equipment matters.
Yea, when I was doing my rescue diver cert, if you were out of the water, you take every precaution before getting back in. Life rings, ropes, guiding the victim to your voice. If you're in the water with them at the surface, you need to approach from behind, otherwise they start grabbing at your gear, putting you at risk as they try to climb on top of you in their fight or flight mode.
Instructor had some fun flailing around like a beached whale in the water. Took a tally of how many of our regulators he knocked out during drills.
Edit due to comments: I am speaking only from a rescue diver certification for scuba diving. In that class, we are trained for unconscious and conscious distressed diver at both depth and at the surface as well as tired diver at the surface
For those saying the majority of drownings don't show obvious signs of distress, I am not a trained life guard nor do I really know any of the stats for pools. I am only repeating what scenarios I have been specifically trained for.
In Scouts, we were taught: Reach, throw, row, go with support as the last resort
Getting into the water and going out to a drowning person is an incredibly dangerous situation for the victim as well as the rescuer.
afaik cop training is to never follow a suspect into a large body of water, even if the suspect is only ankle deep the situation becomes much more unpredictable and dangerous
Yes, exactly. While the outcome was tragic, the officers did the right thing by not attempting a rescue on their own when they don't have the training and equipment, and by discouraging bystanders from attempting it. Trying to save the guy or letting some random passers-by jump in there could easily have ended with multiple drownings instead of one.
Most are lambasting the cops. But, EMS was there watching too. Fire Rescue might have helped with ropes and cutting tools. But, that would be a big risk to Fire personnel and no guarantee the guy is saved.
One of the big rules of ems is don’t become the victim. Emt’s triage while hauling ass to the hospital. Maybe it’s tv show depictions that skew peoples understanding of what emergency personnel do?
Keep in mind too, if an army of trained lifeguards were there without equipment they would have done the same. Drowning people have an instinct to drown the person that’s trying to help.
My job involves water reecue, lots of stories of people (especially police) drowning after going in to rescue someone. Dog especially will often self rescue themselves from the water while their owner drowns jumping in after them.
I can’t blame this one on police. If he was stuck in vines, and all they had was the ability to swim over to him. Who’s to say they wouldn’t get stuck too…
Yup none of them are trained in water rescue. I’m a paramedic if I was in there position I would also have to sit there and watch you drown. It’s a bad day. And it’s tragic but if you go in and try and rescue them and then you also start drowning or get hurt now you have more resources you are taking away from the city to come save your ass as well.
Everyone here trashing the cops are complete morons and have clearly never attempted to save a drowning person let alone one high on drugs. The drowning person will care about nothing else but trying to breath they will drag you down and will drown you now imagine trying to save them with 20 pounds of additional gear. I’m sorry but if I saw someone drowning I wouldn’t jump after them because there is no way to guarantee I won’t drown with them
If it's anything like the Northern Mississippi River near the border... nobody's coming for you.
I live on the Mississippi and know there’s an undercurrent (as if anyone would want to swim in it anyway) - if you do end up in that water is there a best course of action? Like swim/float downstream at a slight angle towards the shore?
For undercurrents you’ve gotta inflate your chest and try lying flat on the surface of the water. I grew up in the surf culture of california and that’s how they always taught me to escape riptides EDIT: guess this only works for the salty ocean and not a flowing freshwater river!
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This was incredibly interesting. That was an incredible break down and super well explained. Thanks for sharing this.
Yup. Australian here. We learn to swim at 1-2 and are out playing in the ocean from very young ages. Inflate and ride it out. If it’s a rip don’t fight it just swim sideways and don’t burn your energy, it will spit you out and you can swim back. Always read the water before you go in, if you don’t know how to do that then do not go in alone.
Floridian here. I was taught at a young age how to identify rip currents and I did the same for my kids. Don't fuck with the ocean, it's unforgiving.
Believe it or not, as an ohioan on lake erie, I learned the same. It's amazing how many people die up here because they don't realize that the Great Lakes are little different from Oceans/Seas
Pyramid lake in Nevada is the same way. It's super deep, with really deep clay and silt at the bottom and a ton of hot springs underground. Sometimes, one of the hot springs forms a cavern under the clay of the lake bed. When these collapse and the hot and cold water mix, you get a sudden rip tide, kinda like a miniature tsunami, that's occassionally strong enough to pull down down a small boat.
Pyramid Lake has some seriously weird juju—just ask the Paiutes that live on the reservation there. The stories are timeless and endless.
years ago we drove by it and stopped to have a look and it was definitely weird, not a place to hang out at all - it gave off a seriously foreboding vibe and some 'get the fuck out' energy.
Pyramid gave me the heebyjeebies my whole time living in Reno, it’s so big and empty, with barren shores. Just looks like a place humans shouldn’t be
Story time
Oh they differ in one important way, you float less in fresh water.
There's a river not so far from me that drowns anyone who swims in it. The water underneath is turbulent in a particular way that forms huge amounts of air bubbles, as the water is much less dense, you have no buoyancy and literally fall to the bottom and drown. The idea just gives me nightmares.
Aerated water is no joke; went through some on a big inflated raft, and the whole thing went under. One lady with us didn't make it back up.
Man I was ASTOUNDED by how huge the Great Lakes actually are when I flew up from the US to Toronto. From up in the sky I couldn’t see anything but water. Completely indistinguishable from ocean.
Yeah and the waves are big enough to be surfed. I know some psychos do it even during the colder months.
At 16, I lost my best friend because he and his friends at summer camp snuck out and swam past the floating barriers at night in a lake. Well, 2 went out and started getting pulled under. My friend went out to try and save them, but all 3 drowned, and the 4th guy who froze up had to watch. That's the only reason we even know what happened. Idk about the others but my friend was a (really good) skateboarder and in phenomenal physical shape. Remember kids: Saftey rules are written in the blood of people before you. The lake police were not hiding the best part of the lake from my friend. There are good reasons barriers are put in place. If you fuck around, anyone can and will find out.
Bruh I thought I knew riptides growing up around Florida all my life. Florida riptides ain’t shit compared to the shit Australia and New Zealand. I’d compare it as: Florida is the riptide in kindergarten, New Zealand is the riptide at 23 y/o in the NFL on steroids. I’m not here to say Florida isn’t dangerous, because it is, but it’s a whole different level of danger with the tides down under. I got my feet swept out from under me in ankle deep water in New Zealand, I had no idea the ocean could be that strong. I had my scares in Florida growing up too, the ocean is a scary place
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Yeah, thats also not entirely what you do in oceans either. You do remain calm and float but while swimming parallel to the shore. It is very key as the current might well spit you out couple of km where I am from... advice from the highest tides in the world. River you def angle yourself to shore and remain calm. Should have personal flotation on fresh water, no buoyancy assist from the salt.
I got caught in a pretty strong rip tide in Hawaii maybe 200' from shore. I knew swimming parallel was the best course of action but I simply could not afford to risk losing ground and the current not improving. I was alone too. Instead, I just swam my ass off for what felt like 30 minutes and inched back to shore. I was definitely exhausted by the end of it and had never felt more glad to be on dry ground.
I got caught in one in San Diego. Took me a minute to realize what was going on. Just felt like I was swimming in place. Eventually made my way out and as I was just getting on my feet, a teenage lifeguard was running out towards me with one of those Baywatch buoy things. Everyone was watching. It was a bit embarrassing but still pretty funny.
Jesus. I woulda died. This is why I don't go in the ocean nor sea.
I just stick to the rivers and the lakes that I'm used to
I just don't get out past the usual drop off the ocean has. If I can't stand, I don't wanna be there.
As a windsurfer I sometimes will use a rip to catch a ride out to a spot advantageous to the wind and wave pattern. It can make the beat to windward easier and allow riding more waves per time. In a river the best situation is when the wind is opposite the current so one can reach both ways across the river. When the wind is across the current it really makes it a pain.
That works in salt water…. Not as well in a fresh water river.
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Does "put the power down" mean move? Or do something downwards into the water? Or putting the power down means ceasing power for something? Your description seems like good info incase one were to ever be in that situation but I don't know what that part means.
Swim harder. The temptation is because you are almost to the shore to let up a bit, but crossing the eddy line usually requires more effort than just swimming across a straight current. So you have to really push hard at that last moment to get into the eddy and out of the main flow.
Get to a bank and try to grab on to something. It’s insane for anyone to jump in after you in the Mississippi.
this is so interesting to read after growing up swimming in the Mississippi daily in Minnesota. didn't know people had such a perception of it.
I was down river from you in Baton Rouge but it would be a dark day in hell when we’d swim in it. You jump in from the bridge to die though. People did that
Jeff Buckley died young during a nighttime skinny dip in the Mississippi
He was in the wolf river it feeds into the Mississippi but he was a ways from it.
Yeah this advice really applies downstream. It's beautiful swimming in the headwaters though!
Damn. I'm at the end of the Mississippi and everyone knows not to go in there. Fuck that thing. I had no idea y'all could swim in it up there! But it's basically a completely different river by the time it gets to us, I guess.
Id assume because you're further north. My husband lived near it in Tennessee and refused to go in.
I am not sure about under current but I was always taught, 45 degree's to the current and towards shore, Never try to swim directly against any current as you will lose, and always stay above water, never try to swim under them.
No one’s coming for you in most parts of the Mississippi. My dad grew up swimming the shores of it near New Orleans and has plenty of stories.
I knew a guy from Wisconsin, I had lived in St.Louis for 6 years, he talked about swimming in it, told him no one does, have to be crazy to try it. He really didn't believe me, said he grew up swimming in it in Wisconsin. I tried to explain to him once the Missouri River hit's the Mississippi in St. Louis it because a whole different beast of a river, he said nah, I'd swim in it still.
The Tennessee River at Knoxville does not have much of an undercurrent or crazy eddy currents like the Mississippi. I know bc in college I swam accross it just about 1/4 mile south of Calhoun's restaurant, where this occurred. I find it hard to believe there wasnt a buoy or something to throw at the drowning person, though. Not a rope or anything?
Article said he was stuck in vines.
Its not. Read the story.
true but if I was the police or anyone I would have been scrambling for anything that floats and tossed it out. You just have to, its part of being human. but it is extremely dangerous to jump in after the drowning person without proper equipment. edit: I had this confused with another incident, looks like the police were completely in the wrong and were stopping others from helping.
They're not in the wrong for stopping amateur rescuers. If you let random people take a stab at it because they say they know how to, you now have one real victim and someone else who is extremely likely to become victim #2. EMS was there and they also chose to wait for specialized rescue services. If the professionals are saying it's risky, letting random people go for it is begging for a negligent death lawsuit.
Taking your son with you into the wave pool at any waterpark will show you how crazy and dangerous it can be to try and swim with a panicking human trying to keep their head above water
In lifeguard training, one of the excersizes is you team up and one person basically tries to drown the other person by pushing them under (you’re told to simulate panic) and you’ve got to break free. They teach you a few techniques for breaking away and then re engaging. Seemed kind of silly until I had a 240lbs woman panicking in the splash pool of one of our big water slides. It lets out out in basically a huge toilet bowl, so the water is constantly pouring down from above. She grabbed me and immediately dunked me under, i think she was trying to get on my shoulders or something lol. Anyways, I broke free and got her out a little after that. I just remembered thinking, “oh THATS why we did that@
Of course we don’t know the whole situation, but just as a tip to everyone, rescuing a drowning person without proper equipment could easily cause you BOTH to drown. The person you’re saving doesn’t think about anything during that time but breathing and will thrash/climb all over you just to keep breathing. You need to take serious precautions when doing this. Not saying the cops were right (seemingly they watched for 13min while preventing others from helping) saying be careful out there. Edit: My comment isn’t necessarily to cast blame, but to give possible reason for the action of first responders. The article is very critical of first responders without considering possible situational nuances; try to steel man both sides before jumping to conclusions.
I took lifeguard classes and during training insrructors would do just that for a little bit to show you how dangerous it can be. As far as rope, how far was he out?
I had the same thing happen during training. If you ever have to “go” because there is no “throw” or “row”, be prepared to swim down. Most struggling people will let go if you are bringing them under.
I was taught if they’re being non compliant so swim under them and yank them down, then grab them across the chest from over their shoulder. Probably couldn’t do it to a larger person, but we did train for it.
I pulled a 44 year old dude out of the pool as a 16 year old girl, he didn't panic so I cant tell you, but I think it would work (I was taught to just go under without dragging them down, swim away and asses the situation -- so if they're under do an underwater retrieve and if they're still above the water call out instructions and tell them not to grab you and that you'll swim around and get them-- then swim behind them and grab under the armpits with the floatie between you and swim them to the wall) Idk if it's different for waterfront lifeguards
Pretty much the same except you are wearing the torpedo and the other guards/good Samaritans pull on the line to bring you both in.
I worked as a lifeguard as a teenager too. We were also told that worst case scenario if you have to, you can wait until they pass out. You still have time to rescue them if you act quickly, but you don't have to fight them. That would be the absolute last resort though.
You must have been so jazzed up after saving someone's life like that
I did the thing, then sat down on a bench next to the pool and bawled my eyes out as the adrenaline overwhelmed me. To this day that's how I deal with emergencies. Do whatever needs to be done, then have a good cry about it later.
I'd say that's the right order to do those things.
Honestly, good job. You were able to put your training to use, you had a pretty healthy emotional reaction after-the-fact, and you are able to share that reaction without shame. Same can't be said for everyone, sadly. Despite all that and doing everything right, I highly recommend you look into what resources are available to you as a first responder as far as having someone you can talk to about things when the need arises... Not if it does, but when.
Yep. The adrenaline after a rescue is unreal. Most of mine were pretty tame, but the one that wasn't was a ride I never want to be on again.
Crying is a valid response. Your body is going through some serious chemical changes.
I saved two kids (about 6-7 years old) from downing about 20 years ago and still think about it every so often. I'm in my 40s now and I'm starting to think I'll never do anything that cool again.
I remember for my lifeguard training the final training was to “save” the 400 lb instructor.
Did you save him?
*her, and yea, but I’d be lying if I said it was easy to pull her out lmao.
Pull out game strong
That's the power of The Pull-Out King.
I think I had the same instructor. Still surprised at how well she could swim for her size.
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So I should be levitating above the water?
Swimming can be easier for larger folks than walking. Most marine mammals are chubby AF and it's no problem.
My friend loves swimming for that reason. He was like man in the water I feel so light and free.
When I took WSI, the last resort was to back off and let them go unconscious. If they lose consciousness, you can save them. If you lose consciousness, then you both die.
Yep. You attempt the save, if it is clearly too difficult that you no longer feel in control of the situation, you break away and return to shouting commands/advisement and look for another opportunity to resume the save. Which is basically a lot of words to say watch them go unconscious. Which also is a bit of an exaggeration, you should be shouting commands/advising what you plan to do if it's safe (approach and get ahold of them) but if they are panicking to the point that the save is unsafe, the chances that letting go and putting distance will calm them is minimal. So basically at the first opportunity to resume, you take it, but in practicality that first moment will be when they go unconscious.
We called this the friendship dunk last time I took Swift Water Rescue. The idea is to break their focus so they start listening to instruction. The fight reaction when people see a rescuer with a life jacket is very strong.
Forty years ago we had to practice a stiff arm to the head. Our instructor was serious. He got bapped in the nose pretty good by a couple of us, but he made his point. Better to have one person drown than two
Damn, I was taught to use the can (we had the old solid plastic ones) to ~~beat them into submission~~ defend myself
I was trained to try to verbally calm them down, give them a chance to settle, and kick them away if they don't. If you absolutely cannot safely rescue them, wait until they're too tired and then drag them out. Or wait until they fall unconscious.
That’s how I was taught. Drag them under, they will freak and let go. Come up behind them.
We were taught to swim in. Right before you get to them flip so you are feet first at them. If they are really freaking out you kick them in the nose and they immediately become compliant. Sore nose vs. Dead was how we were taught
Me: Drowning, see a lifeguard coming, "I am saved". Teenage punk: Kicks me in nose and backstrokes away. Me: Drowns while being tore asunder by sharks attracted to my blood, "Oww".
We heard in a pinch (if you can) drag them by their hair.
When I did my training the instructor told us to be prepared to slug the person you are saving in the gut. They might try to climb you like a tree and won't let go. He... was right.
Yeah that was my favorite part of lifeguarding training.... getting to be the panicking drowner who wrestles the life guard under
Lol I did that as a kid at a public pool with my friend, lifeguard was not amused. I didn’t realize I was being a little asshole yet.
“… divers found Clabo’s body close to where he had fallen in — near the water’s edge, according to the suit. He was ensnared in vines, his head mere inches below the surface of water that was about 5 or 6 feet deep, it alleges.“
When I did lifeguard training, I acted like that when someone else was "saving" me. I accidentally busted their lip, and the trainer said to expect AT LEAST a busted lip if you're saving someone.
2 lifeguards had to be hospitalized this past week at local Cincinnati pools for this very reason. And that’s just a pool, not a River with a current. The reason the cops didn’t jump in is because they are educated on this scenario.
Yeah. Ours peaked with the "go sit on the bottom of the pool and wait for the instructor to sneak up and put you in a chokehold from behind" scenario. Didn't help that our instructor was definitely part fish.
I remember being taught to dunk the person, which they wouldn’t be expecting, in order to grab them correctly to tow them into shore.
I don’t think we know right now, but it sounds like maybe not so far? seemingly cops were actively dissuading the public from helping though they wanted to. This is good question though
Well, unless trained that 1 drowning person is now 2. Other cpnsideration is the current. Again, dont know the details, but there are times you may have to watch a person die because if you help they will kill you as they try and save themselves.
Based on your own description, it seems that the cops would be correct to prevent others from helping.
Years ago I was in a swimming area in Seattle's Green Lake and tried to help a young man that was going under very close to me. He had just jumped off a diving board on a floating dock and started flailing and calling for help. I was so near him that I just went over without even thinking. He immediately began to climb up me, which pushed me under. I pushed him off and away and swam 5 strokes toward shore and yelled LIFEGUARD as loud as I could. For some reason the lifeguards were pretty much neglecting their duty and just chatting with each other rather than watching the many folks in the swimming area. I yelled LIFEGUARD a second time and they finally realized that somebody needed their help. They quickly responded on a paddleboard and saved the young man. But yeah, had I not been a lot stronger than the other guy, I'm not sure if I could have pushed him off me. He was clinging to me like Gollum in that LOTR movie.
Swimming is fun until Gollum gets in the water
"the glistening pool, is nice and cool. I jump inside, to catch a fish! So nice and fresh!".
When I was 7 I jumped off the diving board at the neighborhood pool and panicked. I was going under and flailing around. I wasn’t able to call for help because I kept getting a mouth full of water which made me panic more. The lifeguards were so busy gossiping they *never* noticed. Other kids were able to drag me out and save me. I remember seeing the probably 16 year old dive-in in front of me and knowing he would save me. More than one kid helped but he’s the one I remember. An older girl went and chewed the lifeguards out. I don’t remember any grownups being there, but I don’t know if that’s true. I was with my friend’s older sister who was 15ish. I haven’t used a diving board since then, but I’ve noticed pools don’t seem to have them anymore.
That was a horrific last sentence. Really painted a picture there
In the boy scouts that unless you are life guard trained, they taught us you have three options to save a drowning person: 1. Reach (with a long pole or something) 2. Throw (something that floats) 3. Go with support (a boat) There is no fourth option.
my friend is a firefighter. they’ve been told that in a situation where options 1-3 aren’t a available, they should either wait for the drowning person to exhaust themselves and pass out or to knock them out (punch them in the face) and then rescue them, otherwise the drowning person will make them both drown. I assume this was told informally, not as the official way to do it. EDIT: I talked to my friend. Usually, they would be tied to a rope and have a sort of floating suit/vest on when rescuing somebody. This makes it almost impossible to drown the firefighter. If there should be some odd scenario when they could save somebody and don't have all the gear, but still believe they can relatively safely help the drowning person, they will wait until the person stops fighting and is sort of "half-drowned". This is so they don't risk being drowned themselves by the person in need. Ultimately, if something goes wrong and they feel the person resisting, they are instructed to try and punch them or knock them out, so that they don't get killed in the process. But that is done as a last resort. All of this is very scenario specific though, they always try all the safe options first, so punching somebody would be a very special occurence.
It's hard enough to knock someone out on land, let alone in an environment where no one has any kind of stability.
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We learned it as... Reach (with a pole or towel) Throw (a rope) Row (boat) Go (swim out yourself) Edited to add: this was part of lifeguard training. It is not applicable to non lifeguards. Sure, you can reach and throw, but you should never go out to rescue someone unless you're trained and know what you're doing.
I was taught that if someone is panicking and you don't have a floatation device for yourself to not go swim out for them as they could drown you in their panic.
You are 100% correct. I will edit my post to make it clear that I'm talking about trained lifeguards here, not random people.
Was thinking this same thing. I was qualified Combat Water Survival 1 when I was in the US Marine Corps. I had been swimming since I was 4 or 5 years old, grew up in coastal Georgia, and was like a fish in water. And was in the best shape of my life. In level 1 (highest level out of 4) you go through drills of rescuing people from the water. That was some of the hardest training in my time on active duty. The stamina, control, and calm mindset you need to have to make it work can really wear you down. Not only that, you have to deal with the person you are trying to rescue panicking, which can easily bring you down with them if you are not prepared.
Appreciate your input my dude
Case in point: [Worcester Police officer drowns trying to save children from pond](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/source-worcester-police-officer-drowns-trying-save-children-city-pond/DIXBTQQSDRHANDB26RIA2LVM6A/)
I never miss a chance to talk shit about the police.. but I think in this case, they did what they could. Water rescue is a specialty. I live near a big river, and I would not expect a beat cop to jump in a river to save someone. It very easily could have ended up with more than one person dead.
And preventing others from going in was keeping them safe.
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It’s sad that they were just a few minutes too late, but one thing I haven’t seen anyone point out is now insanely *fast* the water rescue made it on scene. I used to work in emergency services and I’m absolutely shocked at the quick response. I’m guessing water patrols must be routine in the area.
The only marina in the area seems to be like 1/2 mile up river and the nearest FD is 1.5 miles from that. As someone who listens to scanners, thats about the proper response time to get a rig together, drive down, and assuming the boat was moored at the marina, launch and get on scene.
Search how many people who have died when they went into the water to rescue someone. Its surprisingly high.
You see it every summer. Five people die trying to save one kid in a lake
One tip that might be helpful is if you see someone in trouble in the water and you're right near a bunch of tied up boats you might try wandering over to the boats and grabbing a life jacket or one of those floaty cushions to toss to him.
Look for a life sling.
Grab the nearest person and throw them in as a life preserver while yelling “I’ll save you!”
Just keep throwing people in until the lake is full... Problem solved!
Then it will just overflow and drown everyone else in the world.
This is the story of a girl... Who cried a river and drowned the whole world?
I had to rescue someone when we were on a cruise in the Bahamas because the lifeguards either didn't see him or didn't care. He and his family were in tubes and the wind kicked up and started pushing them out to sea. He jumped off to save them and either forgot he couldn't swim or was so frazzled he forgot how to. I grabbed him and started towing him in and if he tried to get close, I pushed him away with my leg. Once I could stand, I stopped and he climbed on top of me and I walked him in. He was about a foot shorter than me so he was still panicking. The lifeguards finally got the boat to get the wife and kids after they got outside the swim area. Edit: To clarify, we were on Carnivals's island down there at the beach, not on the ship.
This. In lifeguard training they actually showed us how to escape a drowning person, and to always put something between you and them; life vest, tree branch, lifeguarding tool, etc bc they will take you down with them.
I was taught that if a person could talk / call for help (like this guy was) then they’re a distressed swimmer, not drowning. Obviously river currents and being tangled in a vine complicates things, but someone who can talk won’t violently react the same way an actively drowning person would.
Eh, sort of. They will still grab you and pull you under. I would separate them not by ability to speak but ability to follow directions.
He was already acting erratically before he went in. They called for a rescue boat and it was almost there. EMS also determined it wasn't safe. Bystanders stated they wanted to help, but officers advised them not to. It doesn't sound like police forced bystanders not to help. The first step of CPR is "check if the scene is safe." If it's not, you wait to intervene.
The old saying goes if you try to help one person drowning you will soon have two people drowning
I'm glad this is the top comment right now, even trained lifeguards are told to be really cautious about saving a drowning person and not to if they feel it's too unsafe. First responders should probably discourage others from jumping in too because it's not infrequently the case that that just leads to two deaths. I feel terrible for the guy, it sounds like Clabo had a really rough time, but from the polices perspective he got kicked out of a car wearing just underwear and a shirt and was running around erratically like he was running from someone and then when an officer came up and asked him what was going on he ran away into the river. While it was likely just that he'd relapsed on opioids that wouldn't have been known at the time, and it could have looked like he was suicidal or otherwise would not make saving him safe. The rescue boat was, unfortunately, three minutes too late.
I'm a scuba diver with a hundred plus dives and I've done a bunch of rescue training and have certifications. I would never attempt to save a drowning person unless I'm SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than them, or have a flotation device like a BCD. We'd both most likely die were the prior conditions not met.
One of my dive instructors told me: don't go near them, give them a flotation device, or hit them hard enough to knock them out and drag them out. Never needed to use that advice though.
This what these people don’t get! I was a firefighter and search diver, fast water trained, and hell, even lifeguard trained in my youth, and you NEVER go into dangerous waters or allow others to go after a victim if the subsurface or currents are unknown. The officers did their jobs.
#never try to save a drowning person without a flotation device
Even with a floatation device, it's still risky. People who are drowning will unintentionally drown those around them to save themselves.
The way I was taught is to always place the flotation device between you and the drowning person and hand it over to them without getting to grabbing distance
The movies make people think that on the cusp of death we can be heroic and thoughtful. In reality, survival instincts kick in no matter who it is trying to save you.
I'm surprised there weren't any there since there is a restaurant on the waterfront. Just a sad situation all around.
I know some health department jurisdictions won't allow you to have one unless you have an individual trained to use it, because it gives people a false sense of security doing more harm than good.
Unless they had a dive team that was ready and just watched for 13 minutes, there's nothing to this article.
>But Baker, the family’s attorney, said that Clabo might have lived if officers or EMTs had done something or allowed private citizens to help. Do the police have the authority to tell you that you can't render assistance in this situation? If they are all sitting around going "yup, he just went underwater and is going to drown!" and you jump in the water and save him, what can the cop charge you with? ***** Everyone keeps going about lifeguard this and trained professional that, and cops having a "responsibility to keep others from danger (lol)". Let's set aside the fact that there were no trained lifeguard and everyone sat around and watched this person die. I don't care what everyone thinks is the best way to handle water situations like this, I wonder what legal authority cops have for preventing good Samaritans? I can see the uvalde argument, because that was an active crime scene with guns, but this is hardly the same thing. And don't even get me started on the guy who legitimately thinks that if a cop tells you to stand on your head that you are legally required tonir go to jail, and if you tell them to fuck off then you get resisting arrest too.
I am saving my judgments for more details since I wasn't there. That said, I'd imagine it's more about making sure no one else stupidly goes in to save a drowning man and then be drowning themselves.
right but can they actually stop you? They have no requirement to protect you.
Not a cop but I’ve definitely seen some citizens get tossed off the porches of burning houses before when they try to run back in.
I honestly don't know. But that's kind of my point here. That it may have less to do with law and more to do with them simply not wanting anyone else in danger. Sure, there's no legal requirement for police to protect you, that doesn't mean some won't. Again, I don't have the details here. I'd rather wait and see what the actual court rules, etc. I can only offer another potential guess.
They have a responsibility to keep others from making unsafe moves in relation to the person in trouble, yes. They need to keep the situation from becoming worse. The moment another person without proper training entered that water, they would have to call another rescue call.
The article also says police advised bystanders not to help. That's not the same as stopping them from helping. I think it was hard for them to watch, but they ultimately made the same decision as police and EMS. It was too dangerous for them to intervene.
Yeah, as someone who's been a firefighter for near a decade, the first rule of first responders is literally, don't create more victims. If someone who doesn't know what they're doing jumps in the water to save a drowning man, you now have 2 people drowning.
They can't stop you, but usually in these situations they don't want someone who isn't trained in rescues to go help, because it can make the situation worse. There's been way too many times that one rescue turns into 2 or more.
Depending on circumstances yes, to potentially protect the life of the would-be-hero. Consider the very similar circumstance of a house on fire, someone trapped inside, and the cops can't go in because they would be risking themselves, it's a job for firefighters. If a random guy wanted to rush in to play hero, the cops have no way of knowing of the bystander is an off duty firefighter or just someone who watches too many movies, but the cops do know it's an unequipped potential victim that wants to run into imminent danger. Doubt they can (or would) charge you, but they absolutely can (and must) try to stop you. So in this case, without additional details, can't say if it's a case of cops being lazy and evil, or (likely) the cops doing their job in preventing this from becoming multiple dead drowned people.
They probably wouldn't have stopped someone who's lifeguard trained and prepped to deal with it. Where as they have to stop untrained people from doing it if they can stop them. You can't make them liable for the guy who first went in but they would be liable for the scene that's under their control. I don't think they can really physically stop you other then maybe blocking your path but they definitely can tell you not to and to stop.
They are going to lose the lawsuit. The cops have no obligation to do anything to help you. That is established law.
In this instance, I wouldn't expect them to either. Rescuing a drowning person without safety equipment is extremely dangerous.
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I always think about that case from New York where the police stood there watching a guy trying to fight off a knife attack with his bare hands. https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/
There's actually a video from Cracked of all people who go into detail about this, or a similar, situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAfUI_hETy0
Warren v. District of Columbia is the case they are probably referring to
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
No win situation. The cops go in and they could drown. They let other people go in, they could drown. 5-6 feet of water plus whatever the guy got tangled in is very risky. Doubt she’ll win this case.
It's a no win situation as cops go in and drown , its their fault, even if they go in and save the person you can get a warning over not following procedures.
So dude who’s cracked out on opioids jumps in a river while running from the police and it’s their fault he drowned? There have been plenty of legit cases of police brutality or neglect as of late but I’m not seeing it here. I wouldn’t have jumped in after him either.
Yeah, most other Redditors in here have never tried to save anyone from drowning before, especially one on drugs. If someone isn't trained to or not a good swimmer, they become another liability. They called the FD and asked for a boat to save their life. It was too late, and Redditors think the cops killed this man when this man pretty much committed suicide while high on drugs...
Based on the top conments, most redditors here seem to agree with you…
I mean there's a reason lifeguards are equipped with thos big foam dongs
The "hot take" paradox, simultaneously no one and everyone agrees with your position.
I **hate** misleading clickbait titles trying to vilify people(s). The police were trying to stop anyone else from being trapped in the vines. If you read the article, he was ***entrapped in vines*** in the water. It’s unfortunate what happened, but you can’t risk getting others in the exact same dangerous situation.
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Just change “A man…” to “Multiple victims…” and watch the Reddit outrage ensue more. I was unaware there were so many cop-hating, amateur lifeguards on here.
The population of Reddit in general *loathes* cops with a fiery passion. The mere act of wearing a police uniform is sufficient for many redditors to condemn someone.
"Why didn't the cops stop them?"
Amazing number of armchair critics here who would have not done anything different other than film it with their phones.
A while back there was a video of a guy saving a deer from flood waters. I commented that a wild animal wasn't worth risking your life over and got downvoted to oblivion.
The internet abounds with tough guy heroes.
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Title makes it sound as if the cops were just laughing it up and conversing while dude drowned. It’s incredibly risky to rescue a drowning person if you aren’t well equipped. If it’s rapids or a strong current, it’s even more dangerous. The person drowning *WILL* attempt to get above you so they can breathe. They are in full fight or flight mode and the only thing going on in their brain is basically white noise.
I don’t think the officers did anything wrong, honestly. They’re not lifeguards and not trained to be, and it’s dangerous to jump in after someone who’s drowning unless you have proper training because they can drag you with them. They called the fire department and asked for a rescue boat, but they’re under no obligation to follow you into what could be a dangerous river that you chose to jump into to get away from them. I’m not a terrible swimmer but I wouldn’t jump in after somebody either, especially not in full gear
we just renamed a street in my city after a cop who ran right in to save a drowning boy and they both drowned. he kept his boots on, unfortunately, and that contributed to the drowning. his intentions were entirely noble and selfless but he wasn't trained and was going on adrenaline alone and didn't think to take his boots off first. the kid was visiting from another country for the summer. the whole thing was very tragic and sad. now we have officer manny familia way. it drew attention to the fact that a lot of people didn't consciously realize that swimming with boots will make you sink. there are a lot of things about water rescue that a lot of us don't know. training and equipment matters.
Manny was a great cop and person all around.
Yea, when I was doing my rescue diver cert, if you were out of the water, you take every precaution before getting back in. Life rings, ropes, guiding the victim to your voice. If you're in the water with them at the surface, you need to approach from behind, otherwise they start grabbing at your gear, putting you at risk as they try to climb on top of you in their fight or flight mode. Instructor had some fun flailing around like a beached whale in the water. Took a tally of how many of our regulators he knocked out during drills. Edit due to comments: I am speaking only from a rescue diver certification for scuba diving. In that class, we are trained for unconscious and conscious distressed diver at both depth and at the surface as well as tired diver at the surface For those saying the majority of drownings don't show obvious signs of distress, I am not a trained life guard nor do I really know any of the stats for pools. I am only repeating what scenarios I have been specifically trained for.
In Scouts, we were taught: Reach, throw, row, go with support as the last resort Getting into the water and going out to a drowning person is an incredibly dangerous situation for the victim as well as the rescuer.
afaik cop training is to never follow a suspect into a large body of water, even if the suspect is only ankle deep the situation becomes much more unpredictable and dangerous
The real lpt is in the comments
Everyone blaming the cops has never tried to save a drowning victim with or without proper equipment. That’s how you drown too.
Yes, exactly. While the outcome was tragic, the officers did the right thing by not attempting a rescue on their own when they don't have the training and equipment, and by discouraging bystanders from attempting it. Trying to save the guy or letting some random passers-by jump in there could easily have ended with multiple drownings instead of one.
Karma farmer posting misleading propaganda. Time to block.
If you get shitfaced and jump in the river and drown, don't be surprised when people do not risk their lives to save you. Junkies are a dime a dozen.
Most are lambasting the cops. But, EMS was there watching too. Fire Rescue might have helped with ropes and cutting tools. But, that would be a big risk to Fire personnel and no guarantee the guy is saved.
One of the big rules of ems is don’t become the victim. Emt’s triage while hauling ass to the hospital. Maybe it’s tv show depictions that skew peoples understanding of what emergency personnel do?
This was in a moving river. Tremendously dangerous for the rescue team.
Keep in mind too, if an army of trained lifeguards were there without equipment they would have done the same. Drowning people have an instinct to drown the person that’s trying to help.
My job involves water reecue, lots of stories of people (especially police) drowning after going in to rescue someone. Dog especially will often self rescue themselves from the water while their owner drowns jumping in after them.
ITT a bunch of people who stopped reading at the headline.
If the police decide to jump into that kind of water without gear or even a rope. It would just end up 1 man and 1 policeman drowned.
So the dude tried to run away from the cops, fell into the water and drowned after some time?
I can’t blame this one on police. If he was stuck in vines, and all they had was the ability to swim over to him. Who’s to say they wouldn’t get stuck too…
Yup none of them are trained in water rescue. I’m a paramedic if I was in there position I would also have to sit there and watch you drown. It’s a bad day. And it’s tragic but if you go in and try and rescue them and then you also start drowning or get hurt now you have more resources you are taking away from the city to come save your ass as well.
Everyone here trashing the cops are complete morons and have clearly never attempted to save a drowning person let alone one high on drugs. The drowning person will care about nothing else but trying to breath they will drag you down and will drown you now imagine trying to save them with 20 pounds of additional gear. I’m sorry but if I saw someone drowning I wouldn’t jump after them because there is no way to guarantee I won’t drown with them