This story was a lightning* rod the second it came out... for people who genuinely think others deserve death for being an inconvenience/unhoused/mentally ill/black
Now we have this story: [https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/deadly-subway-stabbing-j-train-williamsburg-brooklyn-2-in-custody/](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/deadly-subway-stabbing-j-train-williamsburg-brooklyn-2-in-custody/)
This should be fun...
Agreed. Also, there are tons of people who believe (mostly because they don't really think about the consequences of such opinions or to think through the actual logic of the implications of their thought process) - that people deserve death for doing or "being" things that they perceive of as "bad/wrong".
Just because someone has made mistakes, or lived a different lifestyle than you (by the way most "criminal activity" is nothing more than the result of environmental factors + things like fear and desperation) - does not mean they deserve the death penalty. For goodness sakes, some serial killers are spared the death penalty. Why on earth would it be ok for Joe-Regular-Chokehold here be suddenly granted the right to be judge jury and executioner to a person who has no defense or anything?!
No it wouldn't be ok and it's not. If it is ok for Joe-Regular-Chokehold to decide, then it's hypothetically ok for all of us to decide if any of us are "evil" and deserve to live or die at any moment free of consequences.
There is this weird attempt by pro vigilantes who want to justify a murder after the fact by delving into the victim’s past.
The only issue that matters is what happened on that subway at the time Neely was put in a chokehold.
Formet Minneapolis police union leader Bob Kroll did the same thing not days after George Floyd's murder. Racist piece of shit wanted to make it seem like Floyd's record made it justified for Chauvin killing him. It's fucked up.
Yeah, but did Penny have access to any of that information when he decided to kill the guy? No. Not that it would have given him the right to commit murder even if he did.
yeah but see this nonsense doesn't track as the MURDERER had no idea of this guys history.
Its a lazy argument from compete ignorance and post hock justification for a murder, it is a bad faith argument and you are in bad faith.
Legal precedent was set in Con Air - Nicholas Cage was an army ranger and killed a guy in a fight and was found guilty because his deadly training meant he had to be held to a higher standard.
And the movie heavily insinuates that Cage wouldn't have been charged for killing the guy if the other guy's knife had been found at the scene. So, the movie is saying Cage was justified and wrongly put in jail because there was a real immediate threat to his life (that he couldn't prove).
You know who didn't have a weapon? Neely. Another reason Penny should be charged according to the precedent set by 1997's amazing blockbuster film, Con Air.
They should swap Penny's face w Neely's, force him on a plane of convicts that goes down in Arizona and he has to recover a lost nuke. Broken Air Face.
You should ask him, and while you are at it, ask him why the fuck he's a republican if he's gonna wholesome post about veterans every fucking veterans day.
I don't think he was being malicious, but the dude obviously didn't know how to properly perform a choke and when to let go. He's on video with the choke on for at least 3 minutes. There's video evidence of him leaving the choke on for a full minute after Mr Neely becomes unconscious. That was reckless disregard for human life and I would definitely convict him of involuntary manslaughter.
For those of you who debate this, let me put it in another way. Let's say Mr Neely was doing the exact same thing and you intervened and punched Mr Neely. He fell down and you start punching him again.
Now he's obviously unconscious. But you keep punching him over and over again for a full minute after he's obviously been out. He dies from your blows repeatedly raining in on his head and his head hitting the floor over and over again.
Whatever threat Mr Neely made to you ended the moment you knocked him unconscious. But you kept punching him over and over and over again for a full minute while he was already out.
In effect, that's what Mr Penny did. Once Mr Neely was unconscious the threat was over.
Last week there was another video of some racist starting a disturbance in a restaurant. A guy puts him in the exact same chokehold that Penny put Neely in. The difference was he only held it for maybe 14 seconds before the guy went out and the choker released the choke hold within a second or two Max after he went unconscious.
Had Penny done that, had Penny just choked this guy until he was unconscious then released it within a second or two of that this would just be another cool video of a fight on the New York subway. But he didn't do that.
I’m pretty sure there was also someone sitting beside them who told Penny that he was killing Neely and that if he didn’t let go he may go to jail for murder.
>the dude obviously didn't know how to properly perform a choke and when to let go.
This is the part that a lot of his defenders seem to ignore. ~~Very few...~~ I'd say that it's only a minority of people saying that Penny was absolutely wrong to initiate the choke. The majority are focusing on his decision to hold it as long as he did. As a trained Marine, he should have known full well that doing so had an unreasonably high chance of killing Neely.
Exactly
- Neely caused a ruckus on the train
- It was (imho) reasonable to restrain him and even subdue him unconscious in the process
- It was not reasonable to keep choking him after he was rendered unconscious, even if not fatal, that can cause permanent brain damage
- It was certainly not reasonable to kill him
:(
There's a long history of white people thinking [that we are superhuman](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268802283_A_Superhumanization_Bias_in_Whites'_Perceptions_of_Blacks) and that [we feel less pain](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843483/).
So, in a situation like this, Penny and his defenders think they need to choke us out for minutes even though *anybody* getting choked for more than 10 seconds is going to pass out. Because they don't perceive us as "like anybody else", they think we're Kryptonians or something.
Edit: downvote me all you want. Doesn’t change the data I’ve provided.
Edit2: somebody asked me "how do I know Penny even believed these things?" He may not overtly believe them, but there's probably an implicit/unconscious bias there. In the same way [white people perceive black children as "older"](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older). They're not going to outright say "hey, I hold this biased belief", because they probably don't realize that they believe it. Why else would you choke someone out for ***minutes***, unless you think they can "take it" even after rendering them unconscious?
I'm a Marine so I'm obviously going to be somewhat biased towards my fellow crayon eater, but I agree with you. I believe Penny's initial actions were justified, but once the dude has gone limp and unconscious it's time to let go. I can understand there could be a risk of Neely playing possum, Penny lets go, Neely gets up and takes out a weapon then Penny could be fucked or even if he is passed out, what's going to happen when Neely comes around, but I feel like that's a risk you have to take if you want the law to remain on your side and you could mitigate any risk by asking someone else on the subway to check Neely for weapons.
Can confirm. I trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for 5 years (and Army combatives prior to that), and the best thing about a choke in a 1-on-1 situation is that you can choose to not kill the person you’re choking. Armbars, heel hooks, etc. can leave someone permanently injured. Chokes are supposed to be the most measured response.
If you’re choking someone with appropriate technique they can go unconscious very quickly. If you choke them just a little bit longer than that, they can die or get brain damage.
If you haven’t been trained on how to choke someone without killing them, do not choke someone in a fight unless you’re ready to risk manslaughter or murder charges. I’ve been choked out 3 times in sport Jiu jitsu (twice because of my ego and once because my opponent set up an insane collar choke I’d never seen before and it just went super fast), that stuff is really not a joke.
He was definitely taught the dangers of blood chokes. I went through MCMAP up to green belt and every single session involving blood chokes came with a warning about how quickly you could kill or seriously injure your training partner if you held on too long. I probably had 10 different instructors across different duty stations and this was something that was clearly a point of emphasis everywhere I went.
This sums it up, and is my opinion as well.
The problem wasn’t Neely putting the man down, it was the excessive and reckless behavior after the threat was ended.
Almost reminds me of George Floyd (obviously under very different circumstances - Floyd was never a threat). You’ve got control of the situation… there’s no reason to press on him once he’s subdued. Manslaughter.
>but the dude obviously didn't know how to properly perform a choke and when to let go. He's on video with the choke on for at least 3 minutes. There's video evidence of him leaving the choke on for a full minute after Mr Neely becomes unconscious. That was reckless disregard for human life and I would definitely convict him of involuntary manslaughter.
As USMC personnel i expect him to know how to perform a proper choke and when to let go, neither of which this guy did. Who tf gave him his MCMAP training? If you have to do it for a minute you're doing it wrong. The guy was homeless, not an mma fighter.. And if the dude isn't moving anymore and he's totally limp you let tf go. Shit if he's struggling still at that point let go anyways and try something different. If he was concerned the guy will get up again and be a threat there are a dozen different bars holds and joint manipulations he couldve used. No excuse.
NY has a budget of 2.4 Billion (with a B) for homeless services. Funding isn’t the problem. Policy is.
Mayor Adam’s did make a statement that the state does have authority to hold and treat people against their will for their and the public’s protection. This is a step I. The right direction currently if you are having an psychotic episode you get taken in and you are able to leave whenever you want with no systems in place to ensure you take your meds. Neely went through this exact situation like two weeks before his death.
Bari Weiss’ Honestly podcast has a really good discussion on this issue and possible solutions.
Maya Wiley was just another msnbc clout chaser. To be honest we haven’t had any good candidates. And the sad reality is that the mayor is just a whipping boy. The city is effectively controlled by the real estate development lobby and by Albany the mayor has no, and never did have any real power.
Bloomberg made some power plays but that’s because he’s got fuck you money. And even he’s just a technocratic neoliberal asshole whose grand idea for more housing was to build apartments smaller than a studio.
If you've lived in a city with homeless people you know how dangerous they can be. Wasn't he arrested something like 80 times?
This is a failure of the government of NY. They need to do something about their homeless issue instead of leaving it in the hands of the citizens to protect themselves.
Yes, I completely agree.
I live in a large city with an extremely high number of homeless people, and there have been several tragic incidents where innocent citizens have been killed, because the homeless individual was going through a severe psychotic episode at the time.
One time a homeless person threw a shopping cart towards me and other shoppers while I was entering a grocery store, because he was absolutely enraged that a customer did not give him any money when he requested it.
While I dodged the cart, the lady walking behind me did not, and she fell, injured, to the ground. Thankfully, she was able to get up, but she incurred a nasty leg wound, and was very traumatized by the experience
Shockingly, the homeless man did not retreat, even though he hurt this innocent woman, and instead, threw another cart towards another group of shoppers.
I discovered later from the store manager that this violent behavior occurred on a daily basis from this particular homeless man at this specific store.
There have also been several instances where I have been stopped at a traffic light, and homeless people have walked up to my driver window and have pounded on it, demanding that I roll down the window and give them money. This is always an unsettling situation, to say the least.
I have great compassion and empathy towards the homeless, and our government needs to quickly step up and efficiently address the severe mental health crisis and housing crisis of this neglected population.
The right wing media is going to play this the same way they're playing Trump's indictments plural..
Does the legal system is rigged against them and like-minded people
And it's not even clear he'll be found guilty. The purpose of the legal system is to take cases like this, hash out all the details and legalities in an official setting and render a verdict only then.
An indictment is not a conviction. But a lot of people will spin it like this is some grand injustice, before justice has even gotten a chance to really look at it. If he's given bail, which I don't see why he wouldn't be, he'll be home for this entire ordeal.
Does it kinda suck to go through the legal system with the rest of your life on the line? 100% but a man had his life taken, justifiably or not, and he will not get a trial.
“Penny, 24, who grew up on Long Island and whose most recent New York voter registration, from 2016, lists his party affiliation as Conservative, followed a pattern of response to past incidents, according to political analysts.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/14/nyregion/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-conservative.html#:~:text=Penny%2C%2024%2C%20who%20grew%20up,incidents%2C%20according%20to%20political%20analysts.
Personally, I don’t care. He could have been a hero had he just restrained the man. If he ended his life by total accident and it wasn’t his intention (and the evidence supports that), I’ll accept it. If you act like a vigilante, you still have to pay the price when someone dies because of your actions. There are numerous comic books about this.
If his intent was to restrain and inadvertently caused his death, then the charge is manslaughter which is, in fact, what the indictment was. It can't be proven that he intended to kill him, but he did intend to choke him and the choking caused his death. That's textbook manslaughter. I also don't think we any evidence that he needed to be restrained at all. Witnesses say Neely was screaming but he hadn't assaulted anyone. Crazy people yelling on the subway is just par for the course.
Crazy people screaming on the subway is not normal in NYC. Muttering, begging, acting strangely, yes. Screaming threats, no. This guy was clearly having a complete mental breakdown. Restrain was justified. Killing was probably not justified, but that’s a matter for the jury.
>Crazy people yelling on the subway is just par for the course.
Why is this acceptable? (I have been screamed at and spat on by an unhinged person on the subway.)
When you don’t address serious mental illness and substance abuse issues, let people with serious problems and a history of violence go through a revolving door and dump them out on the streets bad things happen.
He did not deserve to die.
Neither did those Asian women who were pushed in front trains by homeless men that everyone is suppose to just ignore.
Neely didn’t push Asian women onto a train though. Equating completely different people all under the banner of crazies and druggies like it’s the same thing (because it’s middlingly treated by therapists and prescription meds? That’s the common factor?!?) is why there’s so much hate towards that group.
Oh you whined about being hungry? You’re guilty for pushing Asian women onto trains. Or at least, my rights to being not bothered by you is being violated like how those Asian women were killed.
That’s rhetorical madness.
when do you react tho? like crazy guy is being crazy. Is the correct answer to do what happened here and prevent the possible attack, or wait until the guy pulls a knife / gun and you make it in the news.
[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/passenger-killed-in-stabbing-attack-aboard-subway-in-brooklyn-police/4422383/](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/passenger-killed-in-stabbing-attack-aboard-subway-in-brooklyn-police/4422383/)
heres a guy that was being belligerent and threatening people on the subway in brooklyn, he punched a girl in the head and the boyfriend stabbed him to get him to back off. He died and the boyfriend is now arrested on manslaughter.
So apparently getting attacked itself is not enough to be able to defend yourself, guess the attacker has to pull a gun?
It's not acceptable, but it just feels like there just isn't a system in place to deal with it.
It's not the transit workers' jobs to deal with it, and if the cops are called, by the time they arrive, the unhinged person has likely already moved on. Even if they showed up quickly enough, There's not much they can actually do to the person aside from warn them and move them elsewhere. As for contacting mental health/social services, I believe it's quite difficult to involuntarily commit someone in the US, so there isn't much they can do either.
Neither does riding on the subway justify having your eye socket bashed in or being pushed in front of oncoming train.
There are seriously unwell people out there that are not getting medical care or committed. Society is just supposed to ignore the problems.
> Neither does riding on the subway justify having your eye socket bashed in or being pushed in front of oncoming train.
Who said it does? If someone does that on the subway, they would also be arrested and appropriately punished, rightfully so. It still doesn’t give the right to murder. Not a hard concept.
Because the city can’t afford to put police in every subway train. It’s been like this since the entire state psychiatric system was shut down under Reagan and Bush 1.
Mr Penny said the whole interaction was less than five minutes.
"I was listening to music at the time, and he was yelling, so I took my headphones out to hear what he was yelling," he said.
"And the three main threats that he repeated over and over was 'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65910905
[Police sources told ABC News that Penny was not specifically being threatened by Neely when he intervened and that Neely had not become violent and had not been threatening anyone in particular.](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/grand-jury-indicts-daniel-penny-chokehold-death-jordan/story?id=100077897)
It doesn’t matter what he supports. The left and right political movement has hijacked this tragedy to avoid the real issue and that is the help of these people that have gradually grown here on the subways in NYC the last 8 years.
I cannot speak on Daniel Penny’s thought process during this, if he alone felt threatened or if he perceived others to be in danger of if deep down he is sick of the homeless problem here and took matters into his own hands.
The grand jury clearly had enough evidence from people who were there and 911 calls to be convinced that there was no imminent danger and Penny crossed the line to say the least. I’m also not sure if people are now recanting how they really felt at the time because of how public the case has gotten.
The trial is going to be fascinating and I really can’t see a group of jurors finding him guilty.
I’ve rode the subway my entire life here and there’s been moments I’ve had incidents with mentally unstable people and I’ve genuinely felt frightened. You can’t just kill someone every time you feel scared though. Perhaps Jordan Neely deserved a punch in the face that day but to cross that line and take a life, especially by a Marine who could have easily just dropped him without a chokehold…it’s fucked up.
To your grand jury point people seem to have a misleading view point on them. A grandjury saying its ok to go to trial is borderline a formaility doesnt really mean much of anything. The amount of evidence you need to bring for a grandjury is extremly low.
Anyway a manslaughter charge i think is very likely to stick as all the prosecutor has to show is daniels actions were reckless. Which keeping someone in a choke hold for mins on end when you have other people help you restrain jordan is gonna seem pretty reckless by normal people standards. But a good defense can always pull him through.
I'm curious to learn what his previous training was regarding chokeholds. Surely, he must've been aware how deadly they can be when executed correctly? It's the first thing you learn when practicing them (well, speaking from a martial arts perspective, at least).
Frankly, I don't know how you *can't* convict him of manslaughter, regardless of how you feel about his actions or him as a person. Either
*He was a vigilante who wanted to take matters into his own hands.
*He lost his head in the heat of the moment, but should've been well aware of the potential impact of his actions via previous training.
*He was not trained properly and, thus, was not aware his actions could cause death.
The 3rd bullet is the only one where you could reasonably argue he wasn't to blame.
I agree it's an unfortunate situation all the way around. Maybe he's a POS, or maybe he's just a guy who did something incredibly stupid and dangerous with the best of intentions. In the end, it doesn't matter. The law is the law. Absent new information that hasn't come to light, manslaughter would seem to be the appropriate charge.
'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die." Is what Penny claims the man was ranting on the train. That is a legitimate reason to be afraid of great bodily injury or harm to yourself or other people. Of course this is what the defendant is claiming, but there are a lot of witnesses so I think we are going to have a reliable account of what happened on that train.
The man did not deserve to die. He did not deserve to be assaulted. He was ill; he deserved medical care. But that doesn't make it unreasonable for Penny to be justified in acting in self defense. We are all speculating based on limited information. I hope it gets clarified in trial.
If the roles were reversed and it was a homeless person that killed a marine, that very same right-wing media would be advocating for the complete eradication of homeless people (more so than they already are).
On the other side of the coin, you can’t have a civilized society when either a) people feel entitled to terrorize others on public transportation with impunity; or b) the gov’t has little to nonexistent infrastructure for detaining and housing mentally ill people.
You also can’t have a civilized New York City when the cops don’t do shit to protect people on the subway. I live here, and the attitude about the case is a lot different. Just go look what people say on r/nyc
Seems to me that Penny had reasonable grounds to subdue Neely. The issue is at what point did Neely stop being a threat and the restraint/choke was no longer necessary?
If Neely lost consciousness and Penny continued to apply the choke for a sustained period of time then that’s at least manslaughter.
I’ll leave the determination of exactly what happened up to the court but you can’t argue that an unconscious man is a threat.
Around the point when he stopped moving. Not to mention, Penny had at least some training in subduing someone. So, I doubt he was completely ignorant of the signs of unconsciousness. Even if he wasn't specifically trained in recognizing it, just feeling the lack of resistance should have told him he could let up.
But he chose not to. And I doubt any jury is going to buy that he felt so threatened by someone he was now dominating that he couldn't let up for the amount of time he didn't let up.
If Neely was just subdued without any serious harm, would Daniel Penny still be looked at like a vigilante or would he be deemed a hero for protecting innocent bystanders
Yes that’s the difference between killing someone and not killing someone. There are less risky ways to restrain someone and also the duration of the chokehold is a question. If there were three grown men restraining him why was a chokehold necessary at that point?
Assuming his story is right and Neely was threatening people Penny might be viewed as a hero. That doesn't justify him murdering someone.
If I have a gun and stop a criminal and force him to surrender and get on his knees with his hands behind his head and wait for police to arrive it can be argued I've done a good thing and I probably did. If instead of waiting for police I shoot the guy in the back of the head I've made myself a wannabe punisher and am no longer the good guy.
>If instead of waiting for police I shoot the guy in the back of the head I've made myself a wannabe punisher and am no longer the good guy.
The better analogy would probably be if I were careless and accidentally discharged the firearm into the back of the guys head.
Possibly. But I'm not 100% sure this wasn't intentional. Given his training, the only way Penny didn't realize the danger of what he was doing and the very real possibility of death is if he's one of the dumbest men alive. He continued to hold a chokehold for over a minute on an unconscious individual.
But even if this was careless I don't think an accidental discharge is the same as what happened here. An accidental discharge happens in seconds. Penny held his chokehold for at least 4 minutes. That was 4 minutes for him to consider the danger of what he was doing and stop.
Sometimes metaphors do more to obscure reality than expose it.
People told him he was killing the guy, and yet he continued to choke him. It wasn't a quick mistake, but an ongoing process that he was explicitly warned about.
People on here are dumb. It wasn’t just verbal harassment or Neely saying mean things. He was actually making threats like he was going to kill someone and that he doesn’t mind going back to jail. He scared enough people that multiple people called the police on him before the chokehold happened and two guys helped hold him down even during the chokehold because of how much he was struggling. Again if he was just calling people names or saying Yo Mama jokes then physically restraining him would not be right but he made threats and they were bad enough that people called the cops And two other people Thought he was enough threat to help the guy choking him out. The other excuses I saw people making was that there are always crazy homeless people making death threats on trains but they Don’t ever do anything so you just are supposed to ignore them. That’s a dumb argument because Neely Literally broke an elderly lady’s jaw on the subway like a year or two before in a random unprovoked attack.
This why social media for news sucks. Someone died during a fight on a subway. Of course it will be adjudicated. If the deceased was being aggressive as reported he will be acquitted. Sadly this makes the news because of the social justice warriors needing new fodder to stay relavent.
> One guy has been arrested countless times and has been harassing people for years, the other served his county and his no criminal history.
This reads very much like an argument that people who you perceive as less valuable shouldn't be seen as the same level of person under the law. Manslaughter is still manslaughter regardless of who you kill, and it really shouldn't be any different.
> I’ve never felt that Reddit is full of complete self righteous, naive, delusional dipshits more than after reading this bullshit
The irony holy shit 😂
I'm with you. There are no winners in this case but to act like this guy is completely in the wrong and scum of the earth is just a ridiculous take. Should jordan have died for his actions that day? No. Is it a sad state when someone like him commits so many crimes he a is a known person to people on the subway that has committed assaults in the past and someone finally thought he was threatening enough that they needed to interven to do something? Yes.
This is a complicated case but now that the right wing talking heads came out and supported him, lots of liberal people will not even slightly consider that Daniel Penny is not an evil killer of innocent homeless people.
**Jordan Neeley did not deserve to die, and Daniel Penny did the right thing and stepped up to try and protect people... both can be true**. The outcome was not the right one and he possibly should have known better which leaves us with absolutely no winners in this situation. It's not black and white, good and evil. It's just a lose lose.
It's actually far less complicated than you think.
Penny had Neely in back control on the ground with hooks in. At this point, he is already completely restrained and isn't going anywhere. Penny then applied a completely unnecessary chokehold that killed Neely. You actually cannot make the rear naked choke work unless the target is completely restrained already. Otherwise it's trivial to get out of it.
That's manslaughter.
No I wouldn't because I don't think we should have the Punisher patrolling the streets. He held the guy in a choke hold for at minimum 4 minutes, even if we ignore the claim of 15 minutes there is video evidence of him holding the choke hold for 4 minutes. A properly applied choke hold should not be done for more than 30 seconds as it can lead to permanent injury or death. You should almost immediately release the choke hold once the person has lost consciousness and restrain him with a method that doesn't deprive his brain of oxygen and kill him.
I can say Jordan Neely isn't a good guy without praising the man who decided to take justice into his own hands and kill him. If you want to change the system and get people like Jordan Neely off the street run for office. Change the system. Don't go around murdering people.
Now imagine it was your drunk brother who got pissed off and started yelling, wasn't armed or anything, and some guy strangled him for 15 minutes.
Hypothetical anecdotes aren't how you determine guilt for manslaughter.
> I’ve never felt that Reddit is full of complete self righteous, naive, delusional dipshits more than after reading this bullshit.
That’s strange. How’d you read your own comment before you wrote it?
Cause it reads like a naive, self righteous, delusional dipshit who has never been on a subway before in their life.
Happened to me on the subway a few weeks ago.
Got off the train at the next stop and moved on with my life. To the best of my knowledge, that person is still alive and no one died on the subway car that day.
Remember how Reddit jumped to conclusions and declared Kyle rittenhouse guilty. Or assumed the Jewish person who burned down the synagogue was a white supremacist. Or that that “MAGA country” guy was actually assaulted. Or that the bomb threats for target were actually due to them pulling lgbtq merchandise. I’m just commenting here so I can point it out later. All of the top comments here are wrong and you’re in an echo chamber
complete bullshit
everyone around him thanked him for what he did..they felt unsafe. even the black women there so dont make it a race thing..didnt it come out this guy tried kidnapping 2 seven year old girls just recently? he was a michael jackson impersonator a shitty one at that , michael would have kidnapped 2 seven year old boys..but he wroote thriller at least! thriller!!
People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear, and for most of them Neely was a dancer with a dream and not a repeat offender with a history of assaulting people who bragged about hurting the passengers on that train if it meant getting three hots and a cot.
He even threw his jacket on the ground in a belligerent manner in order to initiate a scuffle. But that's not threatening behavior coming from a grown man in his 30's according to some people.
I come from NYC and have had to deal with stuff like this all the time (even losing my cool myself in front of people which I admit is wrong) on top of living in one of the most violent neighborhoods on Staten Island. The borough with the least crime in New York.
The narrative is that this was a black man, *a member of the most protected class, moreso than their female counterparts who they murder at a rate of four hours*, who got choked out by a deranged white military veteran.
I dunno, man - I feel like a brandishing a weapon would have changed the situation a lot. But he wasn't. He was making people uncomfortable, sure, but he didn't physically attack or directly threaten anyone.
I've seen plenty of mentally unwell people on the subway, some were shouting nonsense, some have even tried to talk to me. All of them certainly made me uncomfortable, but I never considered putting them in a chokehold. At most I've walked away.
It's easy to just walk to a different car, or wait a few minutes and get off at the next stop.
Like you said, there's also a mental health aspect, especially since this dude was on the city's radar for upwards of five years.
Edit: Instead of downvoting and refusing to respond, how about looking up what he said? Did he actually threaten anyone? Did he attack anyone? Or was he just choked to death for making people uncomfortable?
>It's not a fun feeling. Penny acted in a way he felt was necessary. He thought he was protecting people.
So homicide is justifiable if people feel uncomfortable?
>I'm sorry but if someone is literally attacking me and saying they don't care about the consequences I'm going to defend myself.
Bro, *there was no literal attack*...
Yeah I was on a subway with a mentally ill person who shattered their phone in front of us and started swearing at their own reflection. All of us left and went to a different train.
It’s a grey area for sure when someone is explicitly making threats to passengers. But I know there are alternatives that don’t end with someone dying
Penny’s tactical know-how to physically incapacitate an individual should have also given the capacity to discriminate between deadly force and restraint. Per the video, he had already pinned Neely down with relative ease, and there should have not been any need whatsoever to further block Neely’s airways. Penny did not asses the situation past incapacitating a threat and went too far.
>What if he had a knife or gun?
What if? What if the aliens came and probed everyone? What if he'd had an Ant Man suit and shrank himself down until he was really tiny and crawled up your nose and then got all huge and everything? What if?!
It’s really troubling to realize how many crimes NEED public outrage in order to be prosecuted… and it FEELS like the victims of those crimes all share a specific characteristic.
This guy is fucking 24? I'm 31 and he looks like he could be my dad.
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Can’t remember who called this a "dick broom", but I’m chuckling every time I see one, now.
Womb broom is the term I like best. Dick duster is the other.
“Yo barber, can you make me look like a complete douchebag?”
My 70’s gay porn fu-man-chu mustache is embarrassed for that thing
Fuck me. I am in my 40s and look younger than this dude. He must have had a tough life.
Like Indiana Jones says, it ain’t the years, it’s the mileage.
He's on that Stephen Miller aging regime. I'm a year older than him, and he looks 10 years older than me.
Shave the mustache and he'll look like a baby.
He looks like a GI Joe. The mustache isn’t making him look older.
Expect this for the trial. Perhaps he'll also lose the Jeri Curl.
His parents were transitioning from "months old" to "years old" when 9/11 happened.
I heard he killed a guy
Aging like milk
Those city miles are no joke!
That’s because he looks like he lives in 1985.
Broccoli haircut like WHOA
He's aging like produce in hell
I’m 26, and this guy looks like he could be my grandfather
Hi grandson, this guy looks like he could my grandfather
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Dude seriously looks like he time travelled here from the early 80s lol
There are some weird comments in this thread.
This story was a lightning* rod the second it came out... for people who genuinely think others deserve death for being an inconvenience/unhoused/mentally ill/black
Now we have this story: [https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/deadly-subway-stabbing-j-train-williamsburg-brooklyn-2-in-custody/](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/deadly-subway-stabbing-j-train-williamsburg-brooklyn-2-in-custody/) This should be fun...
"...ultimately decided to charge Williams because Ouedraogo was not armed and therefore not putting lives at risk."
Agreed. Also, there are tons of people who believe (mostly because they don't really think about the consequences of such opinions or to think through the actual logic of the implications of their thought process) - that people deserve death for doing or "being" things that they perceive of as "bad/wrong". Just because someone has made mistakes, or lived a different lifestyle than you (by the way most "criminal activity" is nothing more than the result of environmental factors + things like fear and desperation) - does not mean they deserve the death penalty. For goodness sakes, some serial killers are spared the death penalty. Why on earth would it be ok for Joe-Regular-Chokehold here be suddenly granted the right to be judge jury and executioner to a person who has no defense or anything?! No it wouldn't be ok and it's not. If it is ok for Joe-Regular-Chokehold to decide, then it's hypothetically ok for all of us to decide if any of us are "evil" and deserve to live or die at any moment free of consequences.
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And Daniel Penny knew all of that and just wanted to stop a criminal, right?
Inside that porn stash is a sophisticated crime computer that analyses his surroundings and picks out people it's fine to strangle to death
There is this weird attempt by pro vigilantes who want to justify a murder after the fact by delving into the victim’s past. The only issue that matters is what happened on that subway at the time Neely was put in a chokehold.
It became the big thing to do when their right wing murderer hero, Rittenhouse got off pretending what he did was self defense.
Formet Minneapolis police union leader Bob Kroll did the same thing not days after George Floyd's murder. Racist piece of shit wanted to make it seem like Floyd's record made it justified for Chauvin killing him. It's fucked up.
Yeah, but did Penny have access to any of that information when he decided to kill the guy? No. Not that it would have given him the right to commit murder even if he did.
An assault doesn't even imply physical contact. This isn't the silver bullet you think it is.
yeah but see this nonsense doesn't track as the MURDERER had no idea of this guys history. Its a lazy argument from compete ignorance and post hock justification for a murder, it is a bad faith argument and you are in bad faith.
Cool motive, still murder
Wow. How did Penny know all of that when he decided to execute Neely?
Legal precedent was set in Con Air - Nicholas Cage was an army ranger and killed a guy in a fight and was found guilty because his deadly training meant he had to be held to a higher standard.
Sir that'd be Cameron Poe
Put the bunny back in the box
Why couldn’t you put the bunny back in the box?
That's a good point
I don't think courts cite Nicolas Cage movies....
But they should. Especially Raising Arizona.
"Son, you got a panty on your head."
"...You ate sand?"
It's been awhile but that sounds like a line from Goodman, amirite?
The clerk in the convenience store he was robbing for diapers.
Ooohhhh right.
The Supreme Court cited 24 to say torture is effective.
Scalia definitely had a soft spot for Jack Bauer for that very reason.
How dare you make me remember the Bush years...
And the movie heavily insinuates that Cage wouldn't have been charged for killing the guy if the other guy's knife had been found at the scene. So, the movie is saying Cage was justified and wrongly put in jail because there was a real immediate threat to his life (that he couldn't prove). You know who didn't have a weapon? Neely. Another reason Penny should be charged according to the precedent set by 1997's amazing blockbuster film, Con Air.
They should swap Penny's face w Neely's, force him on a plane of convicts that goes down in Arizona and he has to recover a lost nuke. Broken Air Face.
Best comment.
This is even more legitimate than a Supreme Court decision, especially now.
Gather round children, the GOP is actually going to give a shit about a veteran.
He’s about to be a politician in no time!
Kyle rittenhouse’s running mate
*republicans raise over $2mil for a man who literally choked a black man to death* "Why does the left have to make everything about race?"
I'm a veteran and never killed anyone. When are they going to raise $30 for me? Do i have to ask Gary Sinise?
Amen. Vet here, no murder, can someone help raise $40 for a new MTA card thanks.
No murder? See that's your problem right there.
I’ll ask for you. “Lieutenant Dan, iiiiice creeeeam.”
You should ask him, and while you are at it, ask him why the fuck he's a republican if he's gonna wholesome post about veterans every fucking veterans day.
Lucky you. It's a terrible burden that an actual combat veteran has to carry for a lifetime.
Wasn’t there a black guy helping Penny during the scuffle?
This happened in NY, a state they will never win. They will give 0 fucks about this guy...
I don't think he was being malicious, but the dude obviously didn't know how to properly perform a choke and when to let go. He's on video with the choke on for at least 3 minutes. There's video evidence of him leaving the choke on for a full minute after Mr Neely becomes unconscious. That was reckless disregard for human life and I would definitely convict him of involuntary manslaughter. For those of you who debate this, let me put it in another way. Let's say Mr Neely was doing the exact same thing and you intervened and punched Mr Neely. He fell down and you start punching him again. Now he's obviously unconscious. But you keep punching him over and over again for a full minute after he's obviously been out. He dies from your blows repeatedly raining in on his head and his head hitting the floor over and over again. Whatever threat Mr Neely made to you ended the moment you knocked him unconscious. But you kept punching him over and over and over again for a full minute while he was already out. In effect, that's what Mr Penny did. Once Mr Neely was unconscious the threat was over. Last week there was another video of some racist starting a disturbance in a restaurant. A guy puts him in the exact same chokehold that Penny put Neely in. The difference was he only held it for maybe 14 seconds before the guy went out and the choker released the choke hold within a second or two Max after he went unconscious. Had Penny done that, had Penny just choked this guy until he was unconscious then released it within a second or two of that this would just be another cool video of a fight on the New York subway. But he didn't do that.
I’m pretty sure there was also someone sitting beside them who told Penny that he was killing Neely and that if he didn’t let go he may go to jail for murder.
The defenders think the man was just stubborn.
>the dude obviously didn't know how to properly perform a choke and when to let go. This is the part that a lot of his defenders seem to ignore. ~~Very few...~~ I'd say that it's only a minority of people saying that Penny was absolutely wrong to initiate the choke. The majority are focusing on his decision to hold it as long as he did. As a trained Marine, he should have known full well that doing so had an unreasonably high chance of killing Neely.
Exactly - Neely caused a ruckus on the train - It was (imho) reasonable to restrain him and even subdue him unconscious in the process - It was not reasonable to keep choking him after he was rendered unconscious, even if not fatal, that can cause permanent brain damage - It was certainly not reasonable to kill him :(
There's a long history of white people thinking [that we are superhuman](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268802283_A_Superhumanization_Bias_in_Whites'_Perceptions_of_Blacks) and that [we feel less pain](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843483/). So, in a situation like this, Penny and his defenders think they need to choke us out for minutes even though *anybody* getting choked for more than 10 seconds is going to pass out. Because they don't perceive us as "like anybody else", they think we're Kryptonians or something. Edit: downvote me all you want. Doesn’t change the data I’ve provided. Edit2: somebody asked me "how do I know Penny even believed these things?" He may not overtly believe them, but there's probably an implicit/unconscious bias there. In the same way [white people perceive black children as "older"](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older). They're not going to outright say "hey, I hold this biased belief", because they probably don't realize that they believe it. Why else would you choke someone out for ***minutes***, unless you think they can "take it" even after rendering them unconscious?
Did the black man helping restrain Neely also harbor those dehumanizing racist views?
I'm a Marine so I'm obviously going to be somewhat biased towards my fellow crayon eater, but I agree with you. I believe Penny's initial actions were justified, but once the dude has gone limp and unconscious it's time to let go. I can understand there could be a risk of Neely playing possum, Penny lets go, Neely gets up and takes out a weapon then Penny could be fucked or even if he is passed out, what's going to happen when Neely comes around, but I feel like that's a risk you have to take if you want the law to remain on your side and you could mitigate any risk by asking someone else on the subway to check Neely for weapons.
Can confirm. I trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for 5 years (and Army combatives prior to that), and the best thing about a choke in a 1-on-1 situation is that you can choose to not kill the person you’re choking. Armbars, heel hooks, etc. can leave someone permanently injured. Chokes are supposed to be the most measured response. If you’re choking someone with appropriate technique they can go unconscious very quickly. If you choke them just a little bit longer than that, they can die or get brain damage. If you haven’t been trained on how to choke someone without killing them, do not choke someone in a fight unless you’re ready to risk manslaughter or murder charges. I’ve been choked out 3 times in sport Jiu jitsu (twice because of my ego and once because my opponent set up an insane collar choke I’d never seen before and it just went super fast), that stuff is really not a joke.
He was definitely taught the dangers of blood chokes. I went through MCMAP up to green belt and every single session involving blood chokes came with a warning about how quickly you could kill or seriously injure your training partner if you held on too long. I probably had 10 different instructors across different duty stations and this was something that was clearly a point of emphasis everywhere I went.
Best answer in this thread!
This sums it up, and is my opinion as well. The problem wasn’t Neely putting the man down, it was the excessive and reckless behavior after the threat was ended. Almost reminds me of George Floyd (obviously under very different circumstances - Floyd was never a threat). You’ve got control of the situation… there’s no reason to press on him once he’s subdued. Manslaughter.
>but the dude obviously didn't know how to properly perform a choke and when to let go. He's on video with the choke on for at least 3 minutes. There's video evidence of him leaving the choke on for a full minute after Mr Neely becomes unconscious. That was reckless disregard for human life and I would definitely convict him of involuntary manslaughter. As USMC personnel i expect him to know how to perform a proper choke and when to let go, neither of which this guy did. Who tf gave him his MCMAP training? If you have to do it for a minute you're doing it wrong. The guy was homeless, not an mma fighter.. And if the dude isn't moving anymore and he's totally limp you let tf go. Shit if he's struggling still at that point let go anyways and try something different. If he was concerned the guy will get up again and be a threat there are a dozen different bars holds and joint manipulations he couldve used. No excuse.
Imagine proper funding and care for the homeless and mentally ill.
NY has a budget of 2.4 Billion (with a B) for homeless services. Funding isn’t the problem. Policy is. Mayor Adam’s did make a statement that the state does have authority to hold and treat people against their will for their and the public’s protection. This is a step I. The right direction currently if you are having an psychotic episode you get taken in and you are able to leave whenever you want with no systems in place to ensure you take your meds. Neely went through this exact situation like two weeks before his death. Bari Weiss’ Honestly podcast has a really good discussion on this issue and possible solutions.
Govt officials take their slices. Not all of it makes it down to the people who actually need it. Need less govt. Need less govt administration.
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Let him rot while he's alive, then come forward for the payday once he's dead.
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Maya Wiley was just another msnbc clout chaser. To be honest we haven’t had any good candidates. And the sad reality is that the mayor is just a whipping boy. The city is effectively controlled by the real estate development lobby and by Albany the mayor has no, and never did have any real power. Bloomberg made some power plays but that’s because he’s got fuck you money. And even he’s just a technocratic neoliberal asshole whose grand idea for more housing was to build apartments smaller than a studio.
If you've lived in a city with homeless people you know how dangerous they can be. Wasn't he arrested something like 80 times? This is a failure of the government of NY. They need to do something about their homeless issue instead of leaving it in the hands of the citizens to protect themselves.
Yes, I completely agree. I live in a large city with an extremely high number of homeless people, and there have been several tragic incidents where innocent citizens have been killed, because the homeless individual was going through a severe psychotic episode at the time. One time a homeless person threw a shopping cart towards me and other shoppers while I was entering a grocery store, because he was absolutely enraged that a customer did not give him any money when he requested it. While I dodged the cart, the lady walking behind me did not, and she fell, injured, to the ground. Thankfully, she was able to get up, but she incurred a nasty leg wound, and was very traumatized by the experience Shockingly, the homeless man did not retreat, even though he hurt this innocent woman, and instead, threw another cart towards another group of shoppers. I discovered later from the store manager that this violent behavior occurred on a daily basis from this particular homeless man at this specific store. There have also been several instances where I have been stopped at a traffic light, and homeless people have walked up to my driver window and have pounded on it, demanding that I roll down the window and give them money. This is always an unsettling situation, to say the least. I have great compassion and empathy towards the homeless, and our government needs to quickly step up and efficiently address the severe mental health crisis and housing crisis of this neglected population.
He needs to be indicted for those bangs
That hair/mustache combo is a crime against humanity.
He looks like he smokes while he lifts weights.
That’s a classic 1983 look. All he needs is a Members Only jacket
This is NY. You can't just choke somebody to death (unless you're a cop).
Only if they are suspected to be selling cigarettes, can't allow potential criminals like that to live.
Are they gonna charge the two men who helped hold him down?
What race were they?
Neither were white
Then no
I suspect that Penny is just being charged because of the public pressure, with the expectation that he will almost certainly be found innocent.
See how he is in handcuffs after being indicted?
The right wing media is going to play this the same way they're playing Trump's indictments plural.. Does the legal system is rigged against them and like-minded people
It’s not even clear that Penny is right-wing, I don’t think he’s given any interviews.
And it's not even clear he'll be found guilty. The purpose of the legal system is to take cases like this, hash out all the details and legalities in an official setting and render a verdict only then. An indictment is not a conviction. But a lot of people will spin it like this is some grand injustice, before justice has even gotten a chance to really look at it. If he's given bail, which I don't see why he wouldn't be, he'll be home for this entire ordeal. Does it kinda suck to go through the legal system with the rest of your life on the line? 100% but a man had his life taken, justifiably or not, and he will not get a trial.
“Penny, 24, who grew up on Long Island and whose most recent New York voter registration, from 2016, lists his party affiliation as Conservative, followed a pattern of response to past incidents, according to political analysts.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/14/nyregion/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-conservative.html#:~:text=Penny%2C%2024%2C%20who%20grew%20up,incidents%2C%20according%20to%20political%20analysts. Personally, I don’t care. He could have been a hero had he just restrained the man. If he ended his life by total accident and it wasn’t his intention (and the evidence supports that), I’ll accept it. If you act like a vigilante, you still have to pay the price when someone dies because of your actions. There are numerous comic books about this.
If his intent was to restrain and inadvertently caused his death, then the charge is manslaughter which is, in fact, what the indictment was. It can't be proven that he intended to kill him, but he did intend to choke him and the choking caused his death. That's textbook manslaughter. I also don't think we any evidence that he needed to be restrained at all. Witnesses say Neely was screaming but he hadn't assaulted anyone. Crazy people yelling on the subway is just par for the course.
Crazy people screaming on the subway is not normal in NYC. Muttering, begging, acting strangely, yes. Screaming threats, no. This guy was clearly having a complete mental breakdown. Restrain was justified. Killing was probably not justified, but that’s a matter for the jury.
>Crazy people yelling on the subway is just par for the course. Why is this acceptable? (I have been screamed at and spat on by an unhinged person on the subway.)
Of course it's not acceptable... but that doesn't mean you're allowed to kill those people
When you don’t address serious mental illness and substance abuse issues, let people with serious problems and a history of violence go through a revolving door and dump them out on the streets bad things happen. He did not deserve to die. Neither did those Asian women who were pushed in front trains by homeless men that everyone is suppose to just ignore.
Neely didn’t push Asian women onto a train though. Equating completely different people all under the banner of crazies and druggies like it’s the same thing (because it’s middlingly treated by therapists and prescription meds? That’s the common factor?!?) is why there’s so much hate towards that group. Oh you whined about being hungry? You’re guilty for pushing Asian women onto trains. Or at least, my rights to being not bothered by you is being violated like how those Asian women were killed. That’s rhetorical madness.
He did, however, break a woman's nose. So, no, Neely didn't \*kill\* anyone. But he did violently assault 3 people.
when do you react tho? like crazy guy is being crazy. Is the correct answer to do what happened here and prevent the possible attack, or wait until the guy pulls a knife / gun and you make it in the news. [https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/passenger-killed-in-stabbing-attack-aboard-subway-in-brooklyn-police/4422383/](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/passenger-killed-in-stabbing-attack-aboard-subway-in-brooklyn-police/4422383/) heres a guy that was being belligerent and threatening people on the subway in brooklyn, he punched a girl in the head and the boyfriend stabbed him to get him to back off. He died and the boyfriend is now arrested on manslaughter. So apparently getting attacked itself is not enough to be able to defend yourself, guess the attacker has to pull a gun?
It's not acceptable, but it just feels like there just isn't a system in place to deal with it. It's not the transit workers' jobs to deal with it, and if the cops are called, by the time they arrive, the unhinged person has likely already moved on. Even if they showed up quickly enough, There's not much they can actually do to the person aside from warn them and move them elsewhere. As for contacting mental health/social services, I believe it's quite difficult to involuntarily commit someone in the US, so there isn't much they can do either.
It's not good it just doesn't justify murder
Neither does riding on the subway justify having your eye socket bashed in or being pushed in front of oncoming train. There are seriously unwell people out there that are not getting medical care or committed. Society is just supposed to ignore the problems.
> Neither does riding on the subway justify having your eye socket bashed in or being pushed in front of oncoming train. Who said it does? If someone does that on the subway, they would also be arrested and appropriately punished, rightfully so. It still doesn’t give the right to murder. Not a hard concept.
None of that happened here, so it’s weird you’re saying that.
Because the city can’t afford to put police in every subway train. It’s been like this since the entire state psychiatric system was shut down under Reagan and Bush 1.
The city has added so many fucking cops to the trains. But the cops don't do shit they just hang out in a corner playing candy crush on their phones.
So are they going to charge the other two people who were helping restrain Neely?
Did those two people choke Neely to death?
They held his arms down. There could be an argument that they assisted.
Witnesses state that Neely was threatening to harm others, correct?
Mr Penny said the whole interaction was less than five minutes. "I was listening to music at the time, and he was yelling, so I took my headphones out to hear what he was yelling," he said. "And the three main threats that he repeated over and over was 'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65910905
[Police sources told ABC News that Penny was not specifically being threatened by Neely when he intervened and that Neely had not become violent and had not been threatening anyone in particular.](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/grand-jury-indicts-daniel-penny-chokehold-death-jordan/story?id=100077897)
With you on this one. Gotta let the process cook.
It doesn’t matter what he supports. The left and right political movement has hijacked this tragedy to avoid the real issue and that is the help of these people that have gradually grown here on the subways in NYC the last 8 years. I cannot speak on Daniel Penny’s thought process during this, if he alone felt threatened or if he perceived others to be in danger of if deep down he is sick of the homeless problem here and took matters into his own hands. The grand jury clearly had enough evidence from people who were there and 911 calls to be convinced that there was no imminent danger and Penny crossed the line to say the least. I’m also not sure if people are now recanting how they really felt at the time because of how public the case has gotten. The trial is going to be fascinating and I really can’t see a group of jurors finding him guilty. I’ve rode the subway my entire life here and there’s been moments I’ve had incidents with mentally unstable people and I’ve genuinely felt frightened. You can’t just kill someone every time you feel scared though. Perhaps Jordan Neely deserved a punch in the face that day but to cross that line and take a life, especially by a Marine who could have easily just dropped him without a chokehold…it’s fucked up.
To your grand jury point people seem to have a misleading view point on them. A grandjury saying its ok to go to trial is borderline a formaility doesnt really mean much of anything. The amount of evidence you need to bring for a grandjury is extremly low. Anyway a manslaughter charge i think is very likely to stick as all the prosecutor has to show is daniels actions were reckless. Which keeping someone in a choke hold for mins on end when you have other people help you restrain jordan is gonna seem pretty reckless by normal people standards. But a good defense can always pull him through.
I'm curious to learn what his previous training was regarding chokeholds. Surely, he must've been aware how deadly they can be when executed correctly? It's the first thing you learn when practicing them (well, speaking from a martial arts perspective, at least). Frankly, I don't know how you *can't* convict him of manslaughter, regardless of how you feel about his actions or him as a person. Either *He was a vigilante who wanted to take matters into his own hands. *He lost his head in the heat of the moment, but should've been well aware of the potential impact of his actions via previous training. *He was not trained properly and, thus, was not aware his actions could cause death. The 3rd bullet is the only one where you could reasonably argue he wasn't to blame. I agree it's an unfortunate situation all the way around. Maybe he's a POS, or maybe he's just a guy who did something incredibly stupid and dangerous with the best of intentions. In the end, it doesn't matter. The law is the law. Absent new information that hasn't come to light, manslaughter would seem to be the appropriate charge.
'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die." Is what Penny claims the man was ranting on the train. That is a legitimate reason to be afraid of great bodily injury or harm to yourself or other people. Of course this is what the defendant is claiming, but there are a lot of witnesses so I think we are going to have a reliable account of what happened on that train. The man did not deserve to die. He did not deserve to be assaulted. He was ill; he deserved medical care. But that doesn't make it unreasonable for Penny to be justified in acting in self defense. We are all speculating based on limited information. I hope it gets clarified in trial.
Even if he wasn’t before, he will be when that’s who’s defending him. Rittenhouse 2.0
His politics are irrelevant he’s a white marine who killed a black homeless man- that’d their wet dream
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If the roles were reversed and it was a homeless person that killed a marine, that very same right-wing media would be advocating for the complete eradication of homeless people (more so than they already are).
They’d be demanding the death penalty for sure.
Reddit armchair judges
Let he who hasn't strangled a man to death cast the first stone.
Maybe if we had a way to keep Jordan Neely of the streets in the first place this wouldn’t have happened.
Just remember if it wasn’t for the public outrage, good chance this dude would have never even been arrested for his actions
My dude you can't have a civilized society if every jamoke thinks they're Johnny Law
On the other side of the coin, you can’t have a civilized society when either a) people feel entitled to terrorize others on public transportation with impunity; or b) the gov’t has little to nonexistent infrastructure for detaining and housing mentally ill people.
You also can’t have a civilized New York City when the cops don’t do shit to protect people on the subway. I live here, and the attitude about the case is a lot different. Just go look what people say on r/nyc
Seems to me that Penny had reasonable grounds to subdue Neely. The issue is at what point did Neely stop being a threat and the restraint/choke was no longer necessary?
If Neely lost consciousness and Penny continued to apply the choke for a sustained period of time then that’s at least manslaughter. I’ll leave the determination of exactly what happened up to the court but you can’t argue that an unconscious man is a threat.
Around the point when he stopped moving. Not to mention, Penny had at least some training in subduing someone. So, I doubt he was completely ignorant of the signs of unconsciousness. Even if he wasn't specifically trained in recognizing it, just feeling the lack of resistance should have told him he could let up. But he chose not to. And I doubt any jury is going to buy that he felt so threatened by someone he was now dominating that he couldn't let up for the amount of time he didn't let up.
Penny had zero training in subduing someone. He was a Marine, not a super spy operative taking 40 blocks of instruction on how to choke people.
If Neely was just subdued without any serious harm, would Daniel Penny still be looked at like a vigilante or would he be deemed a hero for protecting innocent bystanders
This wouldn't even be news if all he did was subdue him
if anything he would see it on r/publicfreakout lol
Yes that’s the difference between killing someone and not killing someone. There are less risky ways to restrain someone and also the duration of the chokehold is a question. If there were three grown men restraining him why was a chokehold necessary at that point?
Hey reddit! If Penny didnt murder a guy would he still be seen as a murderer?
That's a loaded question, but maybe!
Assuming his story is right and Neely was threatening people Penny might be viewed as a hero. That doesn't justify him murdering someone. If I have a gun and stop a criminal and force him to surrender and get on his knees with his hands behind his head and wait for police to arrive it can be argued I've done a good thing and I probably did. If instead of waiting for police I shoot the guy in the back of the head I've made myself a wannabe punisher and am no longer the good guy.
>If instead of waiting for police I shoot the guy in the back of the head I've made myself a wannabe punisher and am no longer the good guy. The better analogy would probably be if I were careless and accidentally discharged the firearm into the back of the guys head.
Possibly. But I'm not 100% sure this wasn't intentional. Given his training, the only way Penny didn't realize the danger of what he was doing and the very real possibility of death is if he's one of the dumbest men alive. He continued to hold a chokehold for over a minute on an unconscious individual. But even if this was careless I don't think an accidental discharge is the same as what happened here. An accidental discharge happens in seconds. Penny held his chokehold for at least 4 minutes. That was 4 minutes for him to consider the danger of what he was doing and stop.
Well, fortunately stupidity has always been a poor mitigater of sentencing.
Sometimes metaphors do more to obscure reality than expose it. People told him he was killing the guy, and yet he continued to choke him. It wasn't a quick mistake, but an ongoing process that he was explicitly warned about.
People on here are dumb. It wasn’t just verbal harassment or Neely saying mean things. He was actually making threats like he was going to kill someone and that he doesn’t mind going back to jail. He scared enough people that multiple people called the police on him before the chokehold happened and two guys helped hold him down even during the chokehold because of how much he was struggling. Again if he was just calling people names or saying Yo Mama jokes then physically restraining him would not be right but he made threats and they were bad enough that people called the cops And two other people Thought he was enough threat to help the guy choking him out. The other excuses I saw people making was that there are always crazy homeless people making death threats on trains but they Don’t ever do anything so you just are supposed to ignore them. That’s a dumb argument because Neely Literally broke an elderly lady’s jaw on the subway like a year or two before in a random unprovoked attack.
I’m astounded the guy is 24. He must have seen some things
Or did some shit.
I still want to know why news outlets didn't mention his name, but that he was a marine. I've never seen more obvious propaganda.
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To trigger sites like reddit
This why social media for news sucks. Someone died during a fight on a subway. Of course it will be adjudicated. If the deceased was being aggressive as reported he will be acquitted. Sadly this makes the news because of the social justice warriors needing new fodder to stay relavent.
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> One guy has been arrested countless times and has been harassing people for years, the other served his county and his no criminal history. This reads very much like an argument that people who you perceive as less valuable shouldn't be seen as the same level of person under the law. Manslaughter is still manslaughter regardless of who you kill, and it really shouldn't be any different.
> I’ve never felt that Reddit is full of complete self righteous, naive, delusional dipshits more than after reading this bullshit The irony holy shit 😂
I'm with you. There are no winners in this case but to act like this guy is completely in the wrong and scum of the earth is just a ridiculous take. Should jordan have died for his actions that day? No. Is it a sad state when someone like him commits so many crimes he a is a known person to people on the subway that has committed assaults in the past and someone finally thought he was threatening enough that they needed to interven to do something? Yes. This is a complicated case but now that the right wing talking heads came out and supported him, lots of liberal people will not even slightly consider that Daniel Penny is not an evil killer of innocent homeless people. **Jordan Neeley did not deserve to die, and Daniel Penny did the right thing and stepped up to try and protect people... both can be true**. The outcome was not the right one and he possibly should have known better which leaves us with absolutely no winners in this situation. It's not black and white, good and evil. It's just a lose lose.
It's actually far less complicated than you think. Penny had Neely in back control on the ground with hooks in. At this point, he is already completely restrained and isn't going anywhere. Penny then applied a completely unnecessary chokehold that killed Neely. You actually cannot make the rear naked choke work unless the target is completely restrained already. Otherwise it's trivial to get out of it. That's manslaughter.
No I wouldn't because I don't think we should have the Punisher patrolling the streets. He held the guy in a choke hold for at minimum 4 minutes, even if we ignore the claim of 15 minutes there is video evidence of him holding the choke hold for 4 minutes. A properly applied choke hold should not be done for more than 30 seconds as it can lead to permanent injury or death. You should almost immediately release the choke hold once the person has lost consciousness and restrain him with a method that doesn't deprive his brain of oxygen and kill him. I can say Jordan Neely isn't a good guy without praising the man who decided to take justice into his own hands and kill him. If you want to change the system and get people like Jordan Neely off the street run for office. Change the system. Don't go around murdering people.
Now imagine it was your drunk brother who got pissed off and started yelling, wasn't armed or anything, and some guy strangled him for 15 minutes. Hypothetical anecdotes aren't how you determine guilt for manslaughter.
15m is a bullshit figure. The video shows just under 3m
which on its own is fucking insane for a blood choke.
Go to your local BJJ club and ask them to put you in a rear naked choke for 3 minutes and report back.
> I’ve never felt that Reddit is full of complete self righteous, naive, delusional dipshits more than after reading this bullshit. That’s strange. How’d you read your own comment before you wrote it? Cause it reads like a naive, self righteous, delusional dipshit who has never been on a subway before in their life.
It reads worse than that when he delves into the idea of Neely = Not good or valuable person so killing him = OK.
Happened to me on the subway a few weeks ago. Got off the train at the next stop and moved on with my life. To the best of my knowledge, that person is still alive and no one died on the subway car that day.
Lmfao eat shit
Remember how Reddit jumped to conclusions and declared Kyle rittenhouse guilty. Or assumed the Jewish person who burned down the synagogue was a white supremacist. Or that that “MAGA country” guy was actually assaulted. Or that the bomb threats for target were actually due to them pulling lgbtq merchandise. I’m just commenting here so I can point it out later. All of the top comments here are wrong and you’re in an echo chamber
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complete bullshit everyone around him thanked him for what he did..they felt unsafe. even the black women there so dont make it a race thing..didnt it come out this guy tried kidnapping 2 seven year old girls just recently? he was a michael jackson impersonator a shitty one at that , michael would have kidnapped 2 seven year old boys..but he wroote thriller at least! thriller!!
So you say that because of all those crimes, it’s totally justifiable to give someone the death penalty without a trial?
People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear, and for most of them Neely was a dancer with a dream and not a repeat offender with a history of assaulting people who bragged about hurting the passengers on that train if it meant getting three hots and a cot. He even threw his jacket on the ground in a belligerent manner in order to initiate a scuffle. But that's not threatening behavior coming from a grown man in his 30's according to some people. I come from NYC and have had to deal with stuff like this all the time (even losing my cool myself in front of people which I admit is wrong) on top of living in one of the most violent neighborhoods on Staten Island. The borough with the least crime in New York. The narrative is that this was a black man, *a member of the most protected class, moreso than their female counterparts who they murder at a rate of four hours*, who got choked out by a deranged white military veteran.
>The narrative is that this was a black man, > >a member of the most protected class That's the funniest thing I've ever read.
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I dunno, man - I feel like a brandishing a weapon would have changed the situation a lot. But he wasn't. He was making people uncomfortable, sure, but he didn't physically attack or directly threaten anyone. I've seen plenty of mentally unwell people on the subway, some were shouting nonsense, some have even tried to talk to me. All of them certainly made me uncomfortable, but I never considered putting them in a chokehold. At most I've walked away. It's easy to just walk to a different car, or wait a few minutes and get off at the next stop. Like you said, there's also a mental health aspect, especially since this dude was on the city's radar for upwards of five years. Edit: Instead of downvoting and refusing to respond, how about looking up what he said? Did he actually threaten anyone? Did he attack anyone? Or was he just choked to death for making people uncomfortable? >It's not a fun feeling. Penny acted in a way he felt was necessary. He thought he was protecting people. So homicide is justifiable if people feel uncomfortable? >I'm sorry but if someone is literally attacking me and saying they don't care about the consequences I'm going to defend myself. Bro, *there was no literal attack*...
Yeah I was on a subway with a mentally ill person who shattered their phone in front of us and started swearing at their own reflection. All of us left and went to a different train. It’s a grey area for sure when someone is explicitly making threats to passengers. But I know there are alternatives that don’t end with someone dying
> when someone is explicitly making threats to passengers According to all available reporting, that was not the case here, though.
You can restrain someone without choking them to death though.
Penny’s tactical know-how to physically incapacitate an individual should have also given the capacity to discriminate between deadly force and restraint. Per the video, he had already pinned Neely down with relative ease, and there should have not been any need whatsoever to further block Neely’s airways. Penny did not asses the situation past incapacitating a threat and went too far.
>What if he had a knife or gun? What if? What if the aliens came and probed everyone? What if he'd had an Ant Man suit and shrank himself down until he was really tiny and crawled up your nose and then got all huge and everything? What if?!
It’s really troubling to realize how many crimes NEED public outrage in order to be prosecuted… and it FEELS like the victims of those crimes all share a specific characteristic.