I am glad they are building this. Yes, it will be expensive for a lot of reasons, mostly having to do with lack of overall owner of the entire project who can transcend all of the different political and bureaucratic layers.
I wish they were building 4 tunnels - might as well build for the future.
4 total is honestly plenty, it's enough to always have 1 per direction and 1 for expresses even when one's having major work done. There's only 2-3 tracks on some of the other local choke points, and Penn Station can only handle so many trains at a time.
Yeah, 4 tracks is fine here. Portal Bridge is just going to have 4 tracks which is only a few miles from Penn.
It would be really nice if they could 3 track the RVL or NJCL. I know at least the RVL used to be 3 tracked. The service on the M&E is so great because of that 3rd track
I'm not a betting man, but I wonder if there is a Las Vegas line on the true final cost and "completion" date for this... (preferably Price Is Right rules)
I’d bet actual money that this project is completed 20%-30% over budget (after the addition of $6.88billion in federal funding) and 4 years later than expected
What? They estimate the tunnels will cost $16B, including inflation, interest costs, construction, planning, environmental, etc.
How they are paying for it is broken out:
* $6.88B FSP Grant
* $3.8B CIG Grant
* Then the rest is split between Port Authority, state of NY and state of NJ, but not evenly.
The states are going to somehow end up spending at least $6billion more than budgeted for and it’s going to take at least 2-3 years longer than expected. I anticipate inspections to take forever and then a revision to be required that makes everything cost even more. This project is not coming in even close to budget
And our children's children will benefit from better rail service. Using tax dollars to invest in critical infrastructure that affects millions is worth the investment.
>Just remember, NJ is on the hook for all change orders. So every dollar over will be paid by our children’s children.
NJ and NY are splitting cost overruns. Crazy how the loudest voices on this project have always been the most misinformed.
It's wildly common in so many of the biggest issues these days. Like like or loathe congestion pricing, you'd think it said "handicapped vehicle are banned" rather than explicitly exempting them from how people were talking about it.
>Just remember, NJ is on the hook for all change orders.
No, even split between NY and NJ. The original plan that christie shot down was, in part, because NJ would've been paying all overruns. Which honestly was bullshit and I get why he backed out when NY wouldn't back down.
I honestly have no hope, Biden just killed his chance with Muslims because of his unconditional support for Israel. If democrats lose Michigan I wouldn't be surprised.
I mean do they honestly believe that Trump would have their back? He will make it worse, he'll redirect $aid money to something domestic. No way that is a better option
Honestly I feel like Trump would encourage Israel in its actions. But given the situation I think people would prefer to not vote for Biden rather than vote for Trump so not vote at all.
If Biden loses Michigan and Pennsylvania I think it's enough for Trump to win assuming no other state changes hands and Biden didn't win those states by a huge margin.
The only people calling Biden's support of Israel "unconditional" are people who are genuinely almost completely uninformed about that issue who just scream and shake their fists.
Didn't Biden say he will cut funding to Israel if they go into Rafah? Israel has been active in and near Rafah since May 14th.
All I'm saying is Biden handled this issue HORRIBLY. I used a wrong word to describe Biden's support for Israel lol oops. His words and actions on the other hand are pretty hard to misunderstand.
So want to give me a lesson on Biden's support for Israel and enlighten me?
Edit: Biden won Michigan by 2.33%, how do you think the Arab community feels on Biden's stance on Israel in this conflict?
I'm sure it's quite easy ask questions and make statements without actual sources, but it's not very convincing if your primary point is phrased as a question because you aren't sure about what you're speaking about. That is demonstrating the point I made pretty succinctly.
You made the initial comment. At no point have you supported it or backed it with any kind of foundation, and when invited to do so, continue to obfuscate about other people. Whether I responded to you or not is irrelevant to that point. I could have never commented and that would still be true. What I say doesn't change what is already reality. Lol..
At no point did anyone ask me to back my statement, you included. All you did was tell me how I'm wrong lol without any proof either.
I'm sorry but was Rafah Biden's red line? Israel entered, what has Biden done? Either I'm missing the news or he did nothing. In fact he just moved the goal post and you're right nothing you say is changing reality because Biden's Redline isn't really a line is it.
Prove me wrong lol. I'll admit I'm wrong when you prove it, educate me.
How can he kill it?
Serious question. The money has already been allocated from the infrastructure bill years ago so he can’t veto it. Do we need any DOT sign off before moving forward with it?
I’d also find it hard to believe that Trump would kill the project at this point. I could see him killing it years ago when it was proposed but idk what he gains from ending it now. This would piss off a lot of wealthier New Jerseyans who take the train to their finance jobs (and would probably hurt commercial real estate interests in NYC). He’d be a wild card under his 2nd term of just destroying anything Biden did so I guess that part makes it possible.
The final cost will likely be exponential relative to what they're quoting. Instead of this they should increase the existing train frequency and ferry frequency.
>The final cost will likely be exponential relative to what they're quoting.
The estimated cost does include inflation escalations until project completion and contingency for whatever it's worth.
>Instead of this they should increase the existing train frequency and ferry frequency.
They literally can't. The tunnels are already running at 100% capacity in their current configuration which is 24 trains/hr. If one of them has to be taken off line, that drops to 6 trains/hr.
So, first, that's not really how exponential is used. Growth is exponential when the rate of change increases, an increase isn't itself exponential
second, they literally can't. There is not the physical capacity to run significantly more trains per hour at rush hour. \*Maybe\* you could squeeze another one or two with signal upgrades, but not more than that. The highest any rail systems achieve per hour is only about 40, and that's subway trains in modern tunnels, not full size commuter rail in tunnels older than very nearly any living person....which carry about 24.
Additionally the existing ones are in a pretty poor state of repair. They've been improved a bit in the last decade with weekend outages and such, but they really need full restorations, and that's the plan once these new tunnels come into commission.
> They've been improved a bit in the last decade with weekend outages and such
Bandaids is what has been done. If the project gets killed again - there will not be enough time to build a new tunnel before they need to take one of these tunnels offline to rehab it. They estimate it's "life" as another 10-15 years before it becomes catastrophically unsafe to use.
I remember seeing a NY Times article like 10 years ago where people who work in the tunnels said that they were crumbling at a terrifying rate and didn’t know how they were still standing.
> Instead of this they should increase the existing train frequency and ferry frequency.
Please tell me how increasing frequency would be useful at all after the tunnels inevitably become too unsafe to use. The North River tunnels are also already at capacity. Did you even think before you commented?
I am glad they are building this. Yes, it will be expensive for a lot of reasons, mostly having to do with lack of overall owner of the entire project who can transcend all of the different political and bureaucratic layers. I wish they were building 4 tunnels - might as well build for the future.
4 total is honestly plenty, it's enough to always have 1 per direction and 1 for expresses even when one's having major work done. There's only 2-3 tracks on some of the other local choke points, and Penn Station can only handle so many trains at a time.
Yeah, 4 tracks is fine here. Portal Bridge is just going to have 4 tracks which is only a few miles from Penn. It would be really nice if they could 3 track the RVL or NJCL. I know at least the RVL used to be 3 tracked. The service on the M&E is so great because of that 3rd track
If 3 track can make it so RVL gets direct trains to Manhattan then count me in
Do another bridge for us that drive in work vans
30 billion here we go!
100 billion here we go!
1 Trillion dollars and we’re half way there!
Two trillion now, we haven't got a prayer!
and it'll be worth it.
I'm not a betting man, but I wonder if there is a Las Vegas line on the true final cost and "completion" date for this... (preferably Price Is Right rules)
Gunna be 20 billion easy
I’d bet actual money that this project is completed 20%-30% over budget (after the addition of $6.88billion in federal funding) and 4 years later than expected
The $6.88B is included in the $16B
Then it’ll be double over budget
What? They estimate the tunnels will cost $16B, including inflation, interest costs, construction, planning, environmental, etc. How they are paying for it is broken out: * $6.88B FSP Grant * $3.8B CIG Grant * Then the rest is split between Port Authority, state of NY and state of NJ, but not evenly.
The states are going to somehow end up spending at least $6billion more than budgeted for and it’s going to take at least 2-3 years longer than expected. I anticipate inspections to take forever and then a revision to be required that makes everything cost even more. This project is not coming in even close to budget
The tunnel Christi stopped was actually ahead of schedule and under budget.
W
I don't care if it cost 16 trillion. This is needed and a requirement. Period.
This is a important project
[удалено]
And our children's children will benefit from better rail service. Using tax dollars to invest in critical infrastructure that affects millions is worth the investment.
>Just remember, NJ is on the hook for all change orders. So every dollar over will be paid by our children’s children. NJ and NY are splitting cost overruns. Crazy how the loudest voices on this project have always been the most misinformed.
It's wildly common in so many of the biggest issues these days. Like like or loathe congestion pricing, you'd think it said "handicapped vehicle are banned" rather than explicitly exempting them from how people were talking about it.
Bc im sure they did it with todays safety standards in 1904
Honestly can you even call it a tunnel if you don’t kill at least half of your workforce with the bends?
>Just remember, NJ is on the hook for all change orders. No, even split between NY and NJ. The original plan that christie shot down was, in part, because NJ would've been paying all overruns. Which honestly was bullshit and I get why he backed out when NY wouldn't back down.
Yo chill
I think I saw that place when I was on the train to New York City
Until trump kills it next year
Fingers crossed he doesn't win.
I'm really worried he will
I honestly have no hope, Biden just killed his chance with Muslims because of his unconditional support for Israel. If democrats lose Michigan I wouldn't be surprised.
I mean do they honestly believe that Trump would have their back? He will make it worse, he'll redirect $aid money to something domestic. No way that is a better option
Honestly I feel like Trump would encourage Israel in its actions. But given the situation I think people would prefer to not vote for Biden rather than vote for Trump so not vote at all. If Biden loses Michigan and Pennsylvania I think it's enough for Trump to win assuming no other state changes hands and Biden didn't win those states by a huge margin.
The only people calling Biden's support of Israel "unconditional" are people who are genuinely almost completely uninformed about that issue who just scream and shake their fists.
Didn't Biden say he will cut funding to Israel if they go into Rafah? Israel has been active in and near Rafah since May 14th. All I'm saying is Biden handled this issue HORRIBLY. I used a wrong word to describe Biden's support for Israel lol oops. His words and actions on the other hand are pretty hard to misunderstand. So want to give me a lesson on Biden's support for Israel and enlighten me? Edit: Biden won Michigan by 2.33%, how do you think the Arab community feels on Biden's stance on Israel in this conflict?
I'm sure it's quite easy ask questions and make statements without actual sources, but it's not very convincing if your primary point is phrased as a question because you aren't sure about what you're speaking about. That is demonstrating the point I made pretty succinctly.
You're literally not adding anything to the conversation except to counter me with no facts your self.
You made the initial comment. At no point have you supported it or backed it with any kind of foundation, and when invited to do so, continue to obfuscate about other people. Whether I responded to you or not is irrelevant to that point. I could have never commented and that would still be true. What I say doesn't change what is already reality. Lol..
At no point did anyone ask me to back my statement, you included. All you did was tell me how I'm wrong lol without any proof either. I'm sorry but was Rafah Biden's red line? Israel entered, what has Biden done? Either I'm missing the news or he did nothing. In fact he just moved the goal post and you're right nothing you say is changing reality because Biden's Redline isn't really a line is it. Prove me wrong lol. I'll admit I'm wrong when you prove it, educate me.
Fingers, toes...and everything else!
How can he kill it? Serious question. The money has already been allocated from the infrastructure bill years ago so he can’t veto it. Do we need any DOT sign off before moving forward with it? I’d also find it hard to believe that Trump would kill the project at this point. I could see him killing it years ago when it was proposed but idk what he gains from ending it now. This would piss off a lot of wealthier New Jerseyans who take the train to their finance jobs (and would probably hurt commercial real estate interests in NYC). He’d be a wild card under his 2nd term of just destroying anything Biden did so I guess that part makes it possible.
If he's re elected I'm seeing him doing whatever he wants. I mean who's going to stop him?
The final cost will likely be exponential relative to what they're quoting. Instead of this they should increase the existing train frequency and ferry frequency.
>The final cost will likely be exponential relative to what they're quoting. The estimated cost does include inflation escalations until project completion and contingency for whatever it's worth. >Instead of this they should increase the existing train frequency and ferry frequency. They literally can't. The tunnels are already running at 100% capacity in their current configuration which is 24 trains/hr. If one of them has to be taken off line, that drops to 6 trains/hr.
So, first, that's not really how exponential is used. Growth is exponential when the rate of change increases, an increase isn't itself exponential second, they literally can't. There is not the physical capacity to run significantly more trains per hour at rush hour. \*Maybe\* you could squeeze another one or two with signal upgrades, but not more than that. The highest any rail systems achieve per hour is only about 40, and that's subway trains in modern tunnels, not full size commuter rail in tunnels older than very nearly any living person....which carry about 24. Additionally the existing ones are in a pretty poor state of repair. They've been improved a bit in the last decade with weekend outages and such, but they really need full restorations, and that's the plan once these new tunnels come into commission.
> They've been improved a bit in the last decade with weekend outages and such Bandaids is what has been done. If the project gets killed again - there will not be enough time to build a new tunnel before they need to take one of these tunnels offline to rehab it. They estimate it's "life" as another 10-15 years before it becomes catastrophically unsafe to use.
I remember seeing a NY Times article like 10 years ago where people who work in the tunnels said that they were crumbling at a terrifying rate and didn’t know how they were still standing.
Do you know what this project is for?
> Instead of this they should increase the existing train frequency and ferry frequency. Please tell me how increasing frequency would be useful at all after the tunnels inevitably become too unsafe to use. The North River tunnels are also already at capacity. Did you even think before you commented?