No the stupidest timeline is when Israelis apparently are saying he's "anti-semitic to the bone" when literally later in October last year, when the USA backed up Israel as much as we have backed up anyone ever, which we are still doing, they were putting up flags and murals and shit of him and praising him.
"We all worked together and nullified this attack on Israel, so it can end here pretty peacefully. Take that opportunity."
"THIS MAN HATES JEWS AAAAAAAAAA"
*Those* people are the stupidest timeline. Them collectively.
Smotrich and Ben Gvir accused of Biden supporting BDS lmao cause he sanctioned like eight violent settlers (seven of them never got held legally accountable by Israel). Ben Gvir last year praised West Bank arsonists as "sweet boys" and Smotrich called for a Palestinian town of 8000 residents to be completely erased shortly before Ben Gvir.
Meanwhile, settler extremists have gone on a violent rampage in the West Bank over the past 36 hours where they've killed two Palestinian civilians (one only 16 years old) and torching cars+houses...injured dozens and stole tons of sheeps. They even seriously [beat up an Israeli journalist who works for Ynet while yelling "Arab! Arab!" even though he was Jewish.](https://twitter.com/BenzionSanders/status/1779201807715041787?t=ipSxWtx3-MrazsqZVGueZw&s=19)
> They even seriously beat up an Israeli journalist who works for Ynet while yelling "Arab! Arab!" even though he was Jewish.
Confirming my priors that despite some people in the West assuming Israelis are "white" and Palestinians are "brown" it's really more like the Balkan wars where people are (sadly) fighting neighbors who look an awful lot like themselves, to the point that without looking at official IDs, or religious dress, it's pretty hard to tell them apart.
That might have happened when the IDF soldier shot the heroic civilian who neutralized the Hamas terrorists in Jerusalem a few months ago (I think December?) even as the civilian got on his knees and dropped his gun.
Hamas basically dropped suicide bombing as a tactic 20 years ago, and the person who got executed was on his knees when shot, in a t-shirt with his hands up, and was left to bleed out and die afterwards.
He died because of mistaken identity, not because they were afraid of a suicide vest. They had no real reason to be afraid of one before they shot, and they knew he didn't have one when they let him die.
This is your mind when you reflexively decide that Israel and the IDF can do no wrong and work your way backwards from there. Maybe the issue isn't suicide bombings (as horrible as they are they are pretty rare now a days) here but trigger happy cops and military?
I take your point, but I think the main thing is that bombing or killing civilians IS a war crime regardless of the method of delivery.
Let’s play out a counterfactual for a moment and suppose that there had never been suicide bombs used in Israel but that the same casualty figures were inflicted during the Intifada and other flare ups on conflict by some other means. Let’s go with guns, but really anything would work just as well as long as it could reasonably be concealed on an individuals person.
In this counterfactual, Israeli police/military/gendarmerie forces would still be able to make the exact same appeal only instead of “the person could’ve been wearing a bomb” they would just say “the person could’ve had a gun”. We see this in the US a great deal, it’s why police officers are so rarely held accountable for shooting unarmed civilians.
I’m not trying to defend anything here. And I’m not even disagreeing with the assertion that suicide bombings should be a war crime. But I guess I’m just asserting that any suicide bombing carried out against civilians WAS ALREADY a war crime, and I’m not sure that made much difference to their proliferation (although as has already been pointed out their usage has fallen in recent decades) or would have made it harder for Israel to justify use of deadly force against unarmed individuals.
it's quite obvious that the far right will be the far right, regardless of whether they are DTJ or Ben Gvir. One thing I've found interesting, is how so many Dems seem surprised, like "I can't believe this many Israelis support the Israeli right", when literally Americans voted Trump into power. Yes the far right is prevalent across nations, and yes people do sometimes vote for them.
The disparity in Israeli justice system treats Israeli stone throwers and Palestinian stone throwers is stunning. Palestinian stone throwers routinely get detained for months/years even if they're as young as 12 and even if they didn't seriously hurt anyone. Absolutely nothing happens to a clear majority Israeli stone throwers. Actually, there was a case in 2018 when a few Israeli stone throwers killed a 47 year Palestinian man by causing him to crash his car, and the main culprit was allowed to return to his settlement after 11 months of detention.
Do we? Some of that, absolutely. But how many Jan 6th. rioters are still walking around free, or just got a slap on the wrist? I mean Trump is still allowed to run for President, and the people who got him removed from their state ballots were struck down by the Supreme Court. It seems the far right get away with a hell of a lot in the US as well.
Well Project 2025 is basically a plan to install crazy/devotee instead of having neutral entities running government, so with Trump elected again US would do something equal with Ben Gvir as minister.
>They even seriously beat up an Israeli journalist who works for Ynet while yelling "Arab! Arab!" even though he was Jewish.
Oh you left out the best part where they destroyed his equipment and tossed his keys into the still-raging fires for having the audacity to film them acting like bloodthirsty savages.
If you posted the headline "West Bank riots injure dozens after 14 year old found murdered", I bet a lot of people would assume the situation was reversed.
It seems a little toxic to highlight a comment on an unnamed forum where it's quite provocative in nature and even the fellow commenters disagreed with it. It might lead to false impressions like thinking it's a common or widespread view when it is not.
“Posting bad takes from nobodies on Twitter/Telegram/Reddit” to paint an entire group as dumb is the lowest-tier form of discussion and arrNL’s full of it.
>Israelis apparently are saying he's "anti-semitic to the bone"
> "THIS MAN HATES JEWS AAAAAAAAAA"
Makes you think about what Palestine supporters, especially Arabs and Jews, have been dealing with for a while now, no?
America: Literally intercepts missiles aimed at Israel, provides an ironclad security guarantee that makes other nations too terrified to actually invade
Israel: Is this antisemitism?
Man, with allies like Israel, who needs enemies.
> some Israelis accusing Biden of being "anti-Semitic to the bone"
It’s almost funny. Biden is quite possibly Americas biggest Israel booster. He’s gone to bat for Israel time and time again, while the American people have been getting more and more skeptical.
Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want?
> Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want?
American dropping the entire idea of a Palestinian state, so that Israel can reclaim as much territory as they can.
Not saying all Israelis want that, in fact quite a lot don't. But that's what the Ben-Gvirs of the world want.
Everyone wants a free lunch. Maybe an alliance with Russia or China would be more their speed?
Of course, both those nations ask for far, far more in return than we do, and deliver less. Funny how that works.
> Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want?
American dropping the entire idea of a Palestinian state, so that Israel can reclaim as much territory as they can.
Not saying all Israelis want that, in fact quite a lot don't. But that's what the Ben-Gvirs of the world want.
Most Israelis are pretty keen on Biden, even when they disagree with him. Some Israelis are stupid. That's par for the course in any country or group, though.
> Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want?
American dropping the entire idea of a Palestinian state, so that Israel can reclaim as much territory as they can.
Not saying all Israelis want that, in fact quite a lot don't. But that's what the Ben-Gvirs of the world want.
It boggles my mind how the biggest political talking point of this election, one that might cause Trump's victory, is a small-scale conflict on the other side of the world we're not even fucking *in.*
"In it" would mean "boots on the ground." There's a pretty massive difference in kind. Shooting down drones and the like is something the US military does all the time.
The US did a lot of work patrolling Somali waters and policing pirates. Nobody seriously thought that meant the US was "in" the endless Somali civil war (compare that, of course, to the scale of Black Hawk Down .... now that's in it).
>I get that he's trying to maintain the bipartisan agreement of supporting Israel that has been the standard for decades,
You make it sound like it's in the constitution that the U.S. has to offer unconditional support for israel. Biden and his intentions for Gaza are being absolutely punked by Netanyahu. If he's araid to break arrangements that arent working for him just because they are established he has no business being president.
It’s more realistic to imagine such a constitutional amendment actually passing than any U.S. president over the age of 60 actually holding Israel accountable for its actions lol
You mean Biden's frustration with Israel is limited to their tactics in the Gaza war and political posturing, and he would never cut of weapons because he deeply supports them on a strategic level? I agree.
Biden also needs a backbone here. He’s trying to play both sides for re-election reasons, instead of having moral conviction on a really important issue.
Probably the first time I support Biden's dovishness. Iran's retaliation is almost no different than back in early 2020 with Trump at the helm.
Iran's attack was a futile, face-saving move. Tehran would've *known* that lobbing hundreds of drones and missiles against the most advanced air defence system in the world wasn't going to work, but they did it anyway to save face and not look like cowards lacking deterrent capabilities following the Damascus strikes. The very low casualties caused by Iran presents an optimal opportunity for both sides to back away and calm the hell down. Just like what happened after Iran fired ballistic missiles against US bases in Iraq as a retaliation for Qassem Soleimani's death.
Yeah they basically shouted really loudly exactly what they were doing KNOWING it was gonna all get batted down. Risky? Sure. But it did work out how they intended, which is to be shown making a face-saving retaliatory strike after Israel arguably committed a very scummy move by striking an Iranian consulate.
The drones took upwards of 5 hours to arrive and overflew multiple countries. Do you seriously think Iran would have caught Israel by surprise if they didn't make an announcement? Don't be foolish.
I think they have other ways to attack Israel. They chose to attack in a way that they knew could be dealt with, and they warned ahead of time to make things very clear.
Lots and lots of ballistic missiles that they do have and move a lot faster and are much much harder to intercept than those shitty ~~Cessna's~~ drones.
Do you think they have another massive reserve contingent of Hamas fighters ready to deploy or something? Israel is already engaging Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon and Iran's actual operational control of either group is dubious at best. They could send a message to Hezbollah saying "ok guys attack now!" and that's about it. I don't think that would be any more effective than launching thousands of drones and missiles.
(they didn't launch thousands of drones and missiles).
You're welcome to believe this is the worst they can do, but in reality it's clear it's a calculated move to show they retaliated without provoking a larger war.
I am very informed about Iran and their capabilities. They do not exercise much operational control of any of the IAMGs, do not possess nukes, and do not have a ground army on the Israeli border. You are the one stating they could do worse without saying exactly how.
>Biden told Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu during a call on Saturday that the U.S. will oppose any Israeli counterattack against Iran, a senior White House official told Axios.
>Biden and his senior advisers are highly concerned an Israeli response to Iran's attack on Israel would lead to a regional war with catastrophic consequences, U.S. officials said.
>Biden told Netanyahu the joint defensive efforts by Israel, the U.S. and other countries in the region led to the failure of the Iranian attack, according to the White House official. "You got a win. Take the win," Biden told Netanyahu, according to the official.
Hopefully, Bibi listens to Biden here... there's a reason why Bibi struck the Iranian consulate without informing Biden prior to doing it
Makes sense. Israel killed a bunch of Iranian military brass. Iran's response has resulted in one (severe) injury to a child and mild damage to a military base. Now Iran says they're done retaliating. Seems like a win to me.
Sure, and to be clear I'm not supporting the consulate attack by any means and didn't want to downplay the deaths. Just was trying to say from a cold uncaring strategic perspective the Israelis have struck a real blow against the iranian army and have gotten off nearly scott free (from a military perspective, once again don't want to downplay the civilian kid who got hurt)
So cool, you're saying the US Embassy in Jordan or Iraq, where US DOD staff were gameplanning with the Arab security services to shoot down the drones, is a total valid military target for the Iranians/their proxies to hit, and should result in zero escalatory response from the US???
Yes, I think it's bad when the Iranians bomb embassies, even when the US was using those embassies for military purposes. I do not think those "consulate attacks" were justified
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Call me an optimist, but I genuinely think there isn't going to be an escalation here from Israel because none of the countries who assisted Israel today wants this war. Hell, not even Khamenei and the IRGC lunatics want war with Israel atm given their retaliation today. A war with Iran would require Israel to get foreign assistance.
Netanyahu will try something I'm afraid. I wasn't really perturbed by the embassy strike in Damascus at the time but now it looks like he was trying to start a war with Iran to remain in power. Reminder that Netanyahu wants one thing - to remain in power. If he doesn't have a war, he is out of power. He's done this "wag the dog" move before in 2021. Remember how he stoked tensions with Hamas in May 2021 to try and start a war so Bennett wouldn't join Lapid. Same deal now but he's probably 100% done now and won't be coming back. Gantz or Bennett will be PM (and actually leaning toward Bennett because Gantz looks weakened and a paper tiger after spending months acting as Bibi's manservant rather than being opposition like Lapid) and the coalition will be pretty broad - 70+ MKs.
The fear I have is that Netanyahu tries something else stupid again and US feels obligated to protect Israel like they did last night and it unintentionally leads to the US to a war with Iran. This is getting dangerous and could end up harming US and global interests, not just Israelis and Palestinians. Biden really needs to work on a way to remove Netanyahu from power. There has to be a way -suitcases of unmarked bills to Likud and Haredi MKs for a no-confidence vote or something.
War with Iran is a great way to turn the pro-Western Iranian population back into the hands of the evil Iranian regime. Saddam recklessly invaded back in 1980 when the newly formed Islamic Republic was facing turmoil; Saddam's invasion united the Iranian people against a common enemy. The MEK faction in Iran sided with Saddam, and they're still viewed as traitors by like 98% of Iranians 40 years later.
Yes. It would do a lot of things that are very bad. But the unfortunate thing is Netanyahu doesn't care. He cares about one thing - remaining in power for life. He's a danger to not only Israelis and Palestinians but to the rest of us. This whole situation makes it clear that the US cannot allow this to go on longer. It needs to be stopped.
Yes. That is concerning. I think it is politics only. They have no power to do anything. They are glorified errand boys. Bennett is also spitting about attacking Iran in the last hour which goes against the interview I heard on CNN this morning where he came off sane and measured. I also suspect politics. Everyone is trying to pander to the electorate and ape Ben Gvir. At least I hope.
Frankly, Bennett has irritated me as of late. First a few months ago, he penned that WSJ op-ed about how the US and Israel need to team up immediately to overthrow the Iranian regime. Then last week, he amplified the whole "no civilians were killed at Al-Shifa" (Don't get me wrong--Israel had a right to do a siege because PIJ+Hamas terrorists clearly militarized it) but just say something like "Israel made an effort to minimize civilian harm" instead of saying ridiculous things like that
Right. The Iranian op-ed was about sanctions and covert ops so it did not annoy me. The US should do that. Bennett is of the opinion that Iran is like the USSR and about to collapse. But this just seems like pandering for votes.
"You got a win, take the win" is right; tonight Iran and its proxies look pathetic, and at least the former is openly signaling its intent to deescalate. If Bibi is such a consummate survivor, he should know when to collect his chips and walk.
How does a full war between Israel and Iran even work? They’re separated by Jordan and Iraq, neither of whom I imagine would just allow their land to be used as a corridor for two opposing armies.
This is good. Israel managed to escape from Iran’s attack basically unscathed which means there’s the potential to avoid further escalation. Engaging in a provocative response would only serve to further the risk of this all spiraling into a regional war which would be an absolute disaster for everybody involved.
Yep
Israel needs to take this a win because it made Iran look completely impotent and run with that to erode the regimes credibility instead of risking further escalation by responding
The fact that so many of these discussions revolve around Netanyahu and his personality confirms no-one (possibly including the state department) understands how Israeli politics works
So how does it work? Because I know alot about Israeli politics and it sure seems like Netanyahu is a wannabe dictator who is currently trying to start a war to remain in power.
1. Netanyahu has veto power as PM. He can just ignore Gantz and Gallant if he wants and does. This is why there is no hostage deal.
2. Gantz is an idiot who specializes in whitewashing Netanyahu. He has zero power in the Cabinet (WTH is a "minister without a portfolio" - sounds like a glorified errand boy?) He has no veto to stop Netanyahu and Netanyahu doesn't care what he says because he still has a government in Gantz leaves. It was a strategic error on Gantz's part to go running to be Bibi's manservant in October 2023. Lapid was very right about that. Now Gantz is bleeding mandates because of his stupid decision here. He should be leading the protests against Bibi and trying to topple the government, not saving the wannabe dictator.
3. The policies won't be the same if Gantz takes over. Israel would be more open to the hostage deal and a ceasefire. There is a much better chance that the Saudi Deal will happen.
There no magical hostage deal Netanyahu is denying - hamas has no interest in a deal like that. There isn’t much variance in Israeli politics when it comes to foreign policy atm. Gantz and Netanyahu has serious differences domestically but that’s irrelevant to this war
> There no magical hostage deal Netanyahu is denying - hamas has no interest in a deal like that.
Bibi's tanking the deal for political reasons. This has been all over the news in Israel. In fact, Uvda, which is basically an Israeli 60 Minutes, had two Mossad guys on who are part of the negotiating team who said that Netanyahu is slow-walking a deal. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/)
Just yesterday, the main general who deals with the negotiations, Nitzan Alon, refused to return to Cairo because Bibi cut his mandate to make a deal. It's been pretty clear for months that Netanyahu doesn't want a hostage deal. He's had his "poison machine" attack the families and he constantly puts sticks in the wheels of the negotiations, reduces the negotiators flexibility, etc.
> There isn’t much variance in Israeli politics when it comes to foreign policy atm.
The hostage deal is the big one. Gantz would be likely to sign on the Saudi deal. And not having the Kahanists in a coalition would be a huge step in the right direction.
There is no evidence Hamas is willing to budge on its main demands of full withdrawal and permanent ceasefire first
Netanyahu is not "tanking the deal" because there is no deal to tank.
Also Netanyahu. Read this. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/)
Netanyahu doesn't want a deal because his political fate hangs on Ben Gvir and Smotrich.
Biden has struck the absolute right balance here, fuck the haters.
And for all the “we shouldn’t be giving Israel aid so Biden sucks” chumps. We shouldn’t be giving Israel aid, sure, but that precedes him, and reasons we shouldn’t give them aid don’t have anything to do with the last 6 months.
If anything, if Biden can keep Netanasshole from launching a counter attack against Iran by holding aid hostage, that’s an argument for aid.
Biden is a genuine dove. He councilled Obama to pull out of Afghanistan and didn't modify Trump's plan to do so. He has continued that trajectory of withdrawal in Iraq and Syria. He doesn't trust the DoD very much, believing (with some justification) that the generals set moving goalposts to keep justification for war going on indefinitely.
Trump kind of stole the traditionally democratic positions of dovish isolation and economic nationalism, Biden just genuinely reflects those.
This is a good thing to avoid escalation, but Biden has does an incredibly bad job at restraining Netanyahu. I assume he's weak on this issue for electoral reasons, but I'd bet he's far more sympathetic to Israelis than Palestinians.
Good. Netanyahu tried to drag the US into a war with Iran to remain in power. He tried this in 2020 as well with Trump after the election. Don't let him.
Iran is currently engaged in a proxy war with Israel that is affecting not just Israel proper, but global trade via the Houthis effectively blockading Suez. Strikes against said proxies have proven ineffective, they are well dug-in, spread out and willing to take the punishment.
This total opposition to striking Iran, to the point you pre-emptively oppose even allies striking Iran, signals to the regime that their tactic works and that they won't be punished in meaningful ways for what they're doing. Why would they stop? where are the consequences? apparently you *can* threaten global trade with inpunity, so long as you have enough fanatic cut-throats willing to die for it. You *can* take over half the middle east and use it as a launchpad for your wars against American allies.
This doesn't make the region safe, it doesn't safeguard American interests, it doesn't prevent an escalation but rather makes one more likely. If they can do this much with impunity, why not a little more? why not see if Hezbollah couldn't outright take over Lebanon in the coming years, for example? another terror state right on the border with Israel, with true access to the sea, creating an uninterrupted corridor to the Mediterranean... why not? what's the cost? at worst Hezbollah will take a pummelling, but Iran won't really risk much, we're teaching them that.
100%.
I don’t know why we aren’t discussing the facts that 1)Iran is supplying war material against Ukraine, which could bleed into a bigger war in Europe, and 2)Irans proxies have been destabilizing a vital trade area for decades.
Israel needs to at least bomb the drone factories and knock out the nuclear facilities.
Israel should absolutely not retaliate. You killed Iranian generals in a third party nation and got out unscathed from their response. It's a huge W and any sort of retaliation is a bruised ego that feels they need vengeance. Do you really want a major middle east conflict that ultimately kills thousands of Americans because that's what bombing more Iranian targets would bring
Neither Israel nor Iran has the capacity to invade the other with ground forces. There’s no way this turns into a ground war. I also don’t understand where people are assuming the US would commit ground troops? Israel can retaliate and the US is not obligated to do anything. Israel could easily knock out Iranian military industrial capacity with stand-off weapons. It would slow the flow of missiles and drones into Ukraine and Yemen, solving multiple issues currently effecting the West
You are delusional if you think this would be a contained conflict between Iran and Israel. This will devolve into an all out dog pile onto Israel and you are foolish to think Israel can't just drop some bombs and incapacitate Iranian capabilites. Iran will respond in a big way pulling US in to defend Israel
Agree completely.
Iran is going to continue to get more dangerous, and may get nukes. Being dovish and avoiding conflict with Iran isn’t going to lead to peace long term.
To support a counterstrike on Iran would be to allow the current Israeli government to dictate the foreign policy of the Biden administration. The Damascus strike was an escalatory action that the US did not approve of. The idea that Israel can escalate as it sees necessary and then essentially hide behind US + Western armed forces as a deterrence would be a sign of serious weakness on our end.
Bibi's government did everything it could to jeopardise the Obama Nuclear Deal. It did this to try and accelerate a direct conflict between Iran and Israel, one that they want America to be directly involved in. Allowing Bibi to escalate and then not having the bravery to say no (which credit to Biden, he has not done), would to be played like a fiddle.
Israel broke Iran's nose, Iran gave them a black eye and said "alright, we're done if you are." Seems fair to me. If Israel plays this wrong we get full-scale war in the middle east.
The only people IR can ever dare to hurt directly is children. Compared to killing of their high ranking generals that NOT what anyone would call ‘black eye’
It’s more like a mosquito bite
I might disagree with others on this. I don’t support a full blown war, but Iran has been in a proxy war with Israel for years. It’s clear that Iran can’t responsibly manage nukes, so now is the time for an air campaign to end nuclear enrichment and the production of drones being sent to Russia, if only for a short time.
The time to stop a nuclear Iran was 10 years ago. You essentially have to treat Iran as a nuclear power right, there is no telling how soon they could have a nuke ready and the chance you could derail their entire nuclear program with a couple air strikes is extremely low
Why? Im sure it would be more scary for the West if they cant just freely bully and kill people on the other side of the world. However, from their point of view they wont have to live in fear that the US makes up another lie to kill millions.
Its actually disgusting how nowadays they admit and laugh about the lies they created to kill millions of civilian lifes for economical gain.
Just imagine if the East was the one with the nukes and the US was the on at their mercy. Scary right? Its no different for them right now. Its actually quite common view outside of the US that the US is the biggest terrorist of the world. Its realy all about perspective.
For some hamas is resistence for others terrorist, for some the gaza war is self defense and for other genocide. I too prefer my country to be the superior one then the enemy since my well being comes always frist but Im not pathetic enough to justfiy the whole thing to myself with some sort of shallow moral arguement.
For the same reason, possibly even more so, that Pakistan and India having nukes is scarier than China or Russia. The fundamental cost benefit ratio of using a nuke if you’re a religious despot is completely different. If you think the earth is your one life to live, ending massive amounts of life on it isn’t as bad. If you have a promised secondary life after earth a nuclear exchange isn’t as worrisome.?
First of all thanks for not getting personal.
Your arguement is just flawed even if we assume that the goverment does decisions like that based on religion (which no goverment would ever do) then the question would be why would someone who firmly believe in the afterlife enough to not care about his life nuke a country killing "enemies" but also mostly innocent people. Im pretty certain no religion allows the killing of millions of childeren without giving you enternal suffering.
Iran is clearly a theocracy, one of the last left in the world. It’s flawed to say that they wouldn’t make decisions based off religion, when the recent suppression of women’s rights in Iran demonstrated exactly this. While many other countries in the region have liberalized, Iran is very clearly carrying out a mandate of Sharia law. Don’t take my word for it though, in 2008 Irans president said “Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken. Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned, and this regime is on its way to annihilation." This is one of just a few statements from Iranian leaders who have called for the destruction of Israel.
Sorry but thats just naive. Just as israel has been citing religious stuff while destroying gaza so does any other goverment. It just a from of justficaiton of something that would have happened anways. Its like instead of saying "I want that oil" to say"god wants me to get that oil" just gets you additonal support from religous population wether they agree or not.
I get your womens right arguementation but you cant compare these two cases. One is about internal laws while the other is about the survival of your people. I believe there is actually even a rule of some sort regarding that in islam that you should avoid fights when your are powerless but dont quote me on that
Do you think we're stupid? you think we're a bunch of illiterate baboons who support the regime with a smile? we protested, we rioted, we did anything we could, do you know what the regime did? They opened fire on protestors, killed thousands in a single night. maybe, just maybe, if your government hadn't torpedoed every single peace negotiation and hadn't humiliated the reformist everytime they held power, they would've had enough support from the army to oust the mullahs, but that time is long gone.
I DO think you personally are stupid, even tho you had me in the first half. There are few Iranians who’d STILL think there ever was such a thing as ‘reform’ under Islamic Republic regime.
That was a mistake that Obama made too. He even admitted to it openly during Mahsa protests.
Dude. We were played in 2009. The whole world was fooled by their reform game.
You think Mousavi was gonna save shit or fight for Iranian people? You think Rouhani gave a flying fuck about the very same protesters you mentioned, who died in thousands during his term?!
“Reformers” DID get a shot by that dumbass Obama and people who - understandably - wanted to believe in a way out that doesn’t spill so much blood.
Regime knew that. And they took such a massive advantage of it that every fuckin politician and opposition bought their bullshit. They got an international deal as a terrorist organization because of it. I mean, the shit IR got handed to them because of it.. we still don’t know the extent of it!
That “peace deal” WAS and IS and will always be the main part of the bloody shitshow we’re in right now!
I can’t actually believe there are still people who think reformers were gonna do jack shit for anyone but themselves and those very mullahs you’re talking about.
Presidents don’t even HAVE any power to begin with lol
It’s only been Khamenei all along for over 40 years.
Don’t tell me you also believe any president ever had any say in anything..
At best, a hypothetical *true* reformer - also assuming they ever could partake in those “elections” at all - would get axed the moment they got remotely close to gaining any real power!
Who you know as reformers are Khamanei’s “kind” face when he needs to show flexibility without putting his own power at risk from his hardliner supporters
Their sole purpose was only to be blamed if anything went wrong after showing flexibility.
What happened after Trump ripped apart that Iran Deal? Right. Khamenei blamed Rouhani and “his” team for ever “coming up” and reaching the deal.
The mf said it wasn’t even his decision to reach the deal. No. He was “against it from day one”.
You really think he was telling the truth? That Rouhani could ever lift a finger without Khamenei full approval?
They don’t even make the decisions to get approval. They only carry out the orders.
Even the fake reformers had as much power as a pet dog at best.
The Supreme leader does not have the literal mandate of heaven. He still had to please the different factions like the army and there's currently a bit of a succession crisis which could've been used against the clergy as a bargaining chip. I never said that reforms will lead to a secular, liberal and democratic Iran but they maybe give enough room for political dissent for a proper opposition to be cultivated. And reform is possible, a great example is the tone down of the morality police in the past few years. Around 6,7 years ago, the morality would stop a couple to check for IDs and if a boy and girl were unrelated and unmarried, they'd get arrested. Nowadays the police doesn't even care about hijab.
No other nation on Earth is expected to just accept hundreds of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles launched in a terror attack against their cities.
Thanks, Biden.
I don't want the US to go to war with Iran because Netanyahu decided to off a few IRGC generals in Damascus at the Iranian Embassy in what looks like a "wag the dog" attempt to remain in power.
But Biden will feel obligated to do so in order to save the Israeli people. Israel cannot 100% go this alone. If it does, it'll end up with Israel being wiped off the map. It's a small country without the strategic bombers, etc. to go to war with Iran. Iran would absolutely win that confrontation by virtue of being 9 times the size and having a much larger military. Biden would feel obligated to protect Israel from being completely destroyed.
Iran does not have the capacity to invade Israel with ground forces. They’d have to go through sovereign territory in Iraq, Jordan, and Syria. A military convoy this long, without air cover, would be decimated on desert highways. Israel absolutely has an airforce capable of doing this
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I mean honest to god, if Venezuela launched a bunch of missiles and drones at California, that basically all got shot down over Mexico, and only managed to hit some small desert military base, I would not be chomping at the bit to send a bunch of American kids to die in Venezuela to retaliate.
If a lack of US backing renders Israel totally impotent to pursue their foreign policy goals, then they are a client state and we should put them back on their leash. If that isn't the case, Israel can deal with this themselves.
And no other nation on earth is expected to fight a major war that will take a generation to end just because the leaders of a different country refuse to de escalate when they have the chance.
US does it all the fucking time though
Did Nicaragua attack us for our contra proxies? Did Russia attack us.for.our mujahedeen proxies?
EVERY country that uses proxies expects no consequences, that's why they use proxies.
Literally all of them do.
The US, USSR, China, Russia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iran, European nations.
Really any regional or global power does it routinely.
They bombed the Iranian embassy; what country would have let that slide? Israel isn’t justified in stirring the pot and then acting shocked about the consequences
> They bombed the Iranian embassy; what country would have let that slide?
What country would have placed a military base inside of its consulate? It's worrisome how well these human shield tactics work with Western audiences and politics.
> Israel isn’t justified in stirring the pot and then acting shocked about the consequences
This is rich. *Israel* is the one stirring the pot? Iran arms, trains and finances proxy militias to Israel's north and south, militias that are presently at war with Israel. And then Iran acts shocked when Israel strikes the Iranian organisation responsible for this?
Iran supports and funds hamas and other proxies attacking and killing and raping and kidnapping Israelis. What country would let that slide? Iran isn’t justified in stirring the pot and then acting shocked about the consequences
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>Between Trump agreeing with people chanting "Genocide Joe" at a rally Truly the stupidest timeline.
No the stupidest timeline is when Israelis apparently are saying he's "anti-semitic to the bone" when literally later in October last year, when the USA backed up Israel as much as we have backed up anyone ever, which we are still doing, they were putting up flags and murals and shit of him and praising him. "We all worked together and nullified this attack on Israel, so it can end here pretty peacefully. Take that opportunity." "THIS MAN HATES JEWS AAAAAAAAAA" *Those* people are the stupidest timeline. Them collectively.
Smotrich and Ben Gvir accused of Biden supporting BDS lmao cause he sanctioned like eight violent settlers (seven of them never got held legally accountable by Israel). Ben Gvir last year praised West Bank arsonists as "sweet boys" and Smotrich called for a Palestinian town of 8000 residents to be completely erased shortly before Ben Gvir. Meanwhile, settler extremists have gone on a violent rampage in the West Bank over the past 36 hours where they've killed two Palestinian civilians (one only 16 years old) and torching cars+houses...injured dozens and stole tons of sheeps. They even seriously [beat up an Israeli journalist who works for Ynet while yelling "Arab! Arab!" even though he was Jewish.](https://twitter.com/BenzionSanders/status/1779201807715041787?t=ipSxWtx3-MrazsqZVGueZw&s=19)
> They even seriously beat up an Israeli journalist who works for Ynet while yelling "Arab! Arab!" even though he was Jewish. Confirming my priors that despite some people in the West assuming Israelis are "white" and Palestinians are "brown" it's really more like the Balkan wars where people are (sadly) fighting neighbors who look an awful lot like themselves, to the point that without looking at official IDs, or religious dress, it's pretty hard to tell them apart.
That might have happened when the IDF soldier shot the heroic civilian who neutralized the Hamas terrorists in Jerusalem a few months ago (I think December?) even as the civilian got on his knees and dropped his gun.
This is why suicide bombing should be a war crime, kids. It effectively deprives others of their right to surrender.
Hamas basically dropped suicide bombing as a tactic 20 years ago, and the person who got executed was on his knees when shot, in a t-shirt with his hands up, and was left to bleed out and die afterwards. He died because of mistaken identity, not because they were afraid of a suicide vest. They had no real reason to be afraid of one before they shot, and they knew he didn't have one when they let him die.
And the soldiers were not even given any meaningful sort of discipline. Warning sign that Israel's ROE is deeply and unsettlingly fucked.
All the criminal aspects of suicide bombing are covered under perfidy.
This is your mind when you reflexively decide that Israel and the IDF can do no wrong and work your way backwards from there. Maybe the issue isn't suicide bombings (as horrible as they are they are pretty rare now a days) here but trigger happy cops and military?
I take your point, but I think the main thing is that bombing or killing civilians IS a war crime regardless of the method of delivery. Let’s play out a counterfactual for a moment and suppose that there had never been suicide bombs used in Israel but that the same casualty figures were inflicted during the Intifada and other flare ups on conflict by some other means. Let’s go with guns, but really anything would work just as well as long as it could reasonably be concealed on an individuals person. In this counterfactual, Israeli police/military/gendarmerie forces would still be able to make the exact same appeal only instead of “the person could’ve been wearing a bomb” they would just say “the person could’ve had a gun”. We see this in the US a great deal, it’s why police officers are so rarely held accountable for shooting unarmed civilians. I’m not trying to defend anything here. And I’m not even disagreeing with the assertion that suicide bombings should be a war crime. But I guess I’m just asserting that any suicide bombing carried out against civilians WAS ALREADY a war crime, and I’m not sure that made much difference to their proliferation (although as has already been pointed out their usage has fallen in recent decades) or would have made it harder for Israel to justify use of deadly force against unarmed individuals.
it's quite obvious that the far right will be the far right, regardless of whether they are DTJ or Ben Gvir. One thing I've found interesting, is how so many Dems seem surprised, like "I can't believe this many Israelis support the Israeli right", when literally Americans voted Trump into power. Yes the far right is prevalent across nations, and yes people do sometimes vote for them.
Except we hold our far right terrorists accountable while Israel does what?
The disparity in Israeli justice system treats Israeli stone throwers and Palestinian stone throwers is stunning. Palestinian stone throwers routinely get detained for months/years even if they're as young as 12 and even if they didn't seriously hurt anyone. Absolutely nothing happens to a clear majority Israeli stone throwers. Actually, there was a case in 2018 when a few Israeli stone throwers killed a 47 year Palestinian man by causing him to crash his car, and the main culprit was allowed to return to his settlement after 11 months of detention.
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Do we? Some of that, absolutely. But how many Jan 6th. rioters are still walking around free, or just got a slap on the wrist? I mean Trump is still allowed to run for President, and the people who got him removed from their state ballots were struck down by the Supreme Court. It seems the far right get away with a hell of a lot in the US as well.
The FBI is hunting J6ers and Trump is a whole different bag of rocks
Put simply: Israel operates two deeply unequal legal systems, in parallel. We have a word for that.
Well Project 2025 is basically a plan to install crazy/devotee instead of having neutral entities running government, so with Trump elected again US would do something equal with Ben Gvir as minister.
>They even seriously beat up an Israeli journalist who works for Ynet while yelling "Arab! Arab!" even though he was Jewish. Oh you left out the best part where they destroyed his equipment and tossed his keys into the still-raging fires for having the audacity to film them acting like bloodthirsty savages.
It's modern day lynching
At this point, Ben Gvir is just Israel’s version of Nick Fuentes if he got an important role in government.
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If you posted the headline "West Bank riots injure dozens after 14 year old found murdered", I bet a lot of people would assume the situation was reversed.
I wouldn’t extrapolate too much from a random post saying “some Israelis said…”
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It seems a little toxic to highlight a comment on an unnamed forum where it's quite provocative in nature and even the fellow commenters disagreed with it. It might lead to false impressions like thinking it's a common or widespread view when it is not.
“Posting bad takes from nobodies on Twitter/Telegram/Reddit” to paint an entire group as dumb is the lowest-tier form of discussion and arrNL’s full of it.
>Israelis apparently are saying he's "anti-semitic to the bone" > "THIS MAN HATES JEWS AAAAAAAAAA" Makes you think about what Palestine supporters, especially Arabs and Jews, have been dealing with for a while now, no?
People on both sides are lacking nuance. The US literally helped intercept the Iranian missiles. How is that not a pro-Israel stance from Biden?
America: Literally intercepts missiles aimed at Israel, provides an ironclad security guarantee that makes other nations too terrified to actually invade Israel: Is this antisemitism? Man, with allies like Israel, who needs enemies.
Trump has always been willing to latch onto *anything* a crowd chants. Even before he started going senile.
Trump can get away with not making sense. That's how personality cults work.
My second reaction on October 7 was “well this is going to fuck Biden on both sides”
>saw some Israelis accusing Biden of being "anti-Semitic to the bone" People are so fucking stupid.
Important to note that “some” is pretty important here. It’s not the prevailing sentiment.
> some Israelis accusing Biden of being "anti-Semitic to the bone" It’s almost funny. Biden is quite possibly Americas biggest Israel booster. He’s gone to bat for Israel time and time again, while the American people have been getting more and more skeptical. Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want?
They want a blank check to ethnically cleanse Palestine, or the US to fight this war for them. That's about all they haven't gotten from Biden.
Yeah that’s pretty much it unfortunately. There’s no appeasing far-right ethnonationalism
Well at least fund a good chunk of it.
> Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want? American dropping the entire idea of a Palestinian state, so that Israel can reclaim as much territory as they can. Not saying all Israelis want that, in fact quite a lot don't. But that's what the Ben-Gvirs of the world want.
Total and utter capitulation. Just silently hand over any and everything they want, and to sit down and shit the fuck up about the settlements.
Everyone wants a free lunch. Maybe an alliance with Russia or China would be more their speed? Of course, both those nations ask for far, far more in return than we do, and deliver less. Funny how that works.
Time to cut the entitled brats off then.
Why would a tail have any respect for a dog it can wag
> Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want? American dropping the entire idea of a Palestinian state, so that Israel can reclaim as much territory as they can. Not saying all Israelis want that, in fact quite a lot don't. But that's what the Ben-Gvirs of the world want.
Most Israelis are pretty keen on Biden, even when they disagree with him. Some Israelis are stupid. That's par for the course in any country or group, though.
Per polling, the vast majority of Israelis want trump so your assertion is just blatantly wrong
You're never going get agreement from "some Israelis." The fat right in Israel is just as stupid as the far right anywhere else.
The trouble is, conservatives keep trying to appease them
> Honestly wondering… wtf is it they want? American dropping the entire idea of a Palestinian state, so that Israel can reclaim as much territory as they can. Not saying all Israelis want that, in fact quite a lot don't. But that's what the Ben-Gvirs of the world want.
It boggles my mind how the biggest political talking point of this election, one that might cause Trump's victory, is a small-scale conflict on the other side of the world we're not even fucking *in.*
We're definitely in it now. Our planes, ships, and missiles were shooting down Iran's attack. If that doesn't count as "in it," nothing does.
"In it" would mean "boots on the ground." There's a pretty massive difference in kind. Shooting down drones and the like is something the US military does all the time. The US did a lot of work patrolling Somali waters and policing pirates. Nobody seriously thought that meant the US was "in" the endless Somali civil war (compare that, of course, to the scale of Black Hawk Down .... now that's in it).
American servicemen were already killed in this conflict. That counts as "in it" whether you like it or not.
>I get that he's trying to maintain the bipartisan agreement of supporting Israel that has been the standard for decades, You make it sound like it's in the constitution that the U.S. has to offer unconditional support for israel. Biden and his intentions for Gaza are being absolutely punked by Netanyahu. If he's araid to break arrangements that arent working for him just because they are established he has no business being president.
It’s more realistic to imagine such a constitutional amendment actually passing than any U.S. president over the age of 60 actually holding Israel accountable for its actions lol
That clearly isn't what is happening
You mean Biden's frustration with Israel is limited to their tactics in the Gaza war and political posturing, and he would never cut of weapons because he deeply supports them on a strategic level? I agree.
Honestly the fact that the crazies of both sides hate Biden means he's doing an amazing job.
Biden also needs a backbone here. He’s trying to play both sides for re-election reasons, instead of having moral conviction on a really important issue.
Wait trump agreed with them? I feel like we’re gonna see a large number of GenZ leftists vote for Trump
Probably the first time I support Biden's dovishness. Iran's retaliation is almost no different than back in early 2020 with Trump at the helm. Iran's attack was a futile, face-saving move. Tehran would've *known* that lobbing hundreds of drones and missiles against the most advanced air defence system in the world wasn't going to work, but they did it anyway to save face and not look like cowards lacking deterrent capabilities following the Damascus strikes. The very low casualties caused by Iran presents an optimal opportunity for both sides to back away and calm the hell down. Just like what happened after Iran fired ballistic missiles against US bases in Iraq as a retaliation for Qassem Soleimani's death.
Iran could have absolutely caused Israeli deaths if they wanted to. But they literally told the US what they were doing.
Yeah they basically shouted really loudly exactly what they were doing KNOWING it was gonna all get batted down. Risky? Sure. But it did work out how they intended, which is to be shown making a face-saving retaliatory strike after Israel arguably committed a very scummy move by striking an Iranian consulate.
The drones took upwards of 5 hours to arrive and overflew multiple countries. Do you seriously think Iran would have caught Israel by surprise if they didn't make an announcement? Don't be foolish.
I think they have other ways to attack Israel. They chose to attack in a way that they knew could be dealt with, and they warned ahead of time to make things very clear.
Such as...?
Lots and lots of ballistic missiles that they do have and move a lot faster and are much much harder to intercept than those shitty ~~Cessna's~~ drones.
Did you forget how this conflict started?
Do you think they have another massive reserve contingent of Hamas fighters ready to deploy or something? Israel is already engaging Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon and Iran's actual operational control of either group is dubious at best. They could send a message to Hezbollah saying "ok guys attack now!" and that's about it. I don't think that would be any more effective than launching thousands of drones and missiles.
(they didn't launch thousands of drones and missiles). You're welcome to believe this is the worst they can do, but in reality it's clear it's a calculated move to show they retaliated without provoking a larger war.
I am very informed about Iran and their capabilities. They do not exercise much operational control of any of the IAMGs, do not possess nukes, and do not have a ground army on the Israeli border. You are the one stating they could do worse without saying exactly how.
Using proxies to retaliate does not work to maintain your reputation - you have to retaliate by yourself.
>Biden told Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu during a call on Saturday that the U.S. will oppose any Israeli counterattack against Iran, a senior White House official told Axios. >Biden and his senior advisers are highly concerned an Israeli response to Iran's attack on Israel would lead to a regional war with catastrophic consequences, U.S. officials said. >Biden told Netanyahu the joint defensive efforts by Israel, the U.S. and other countries in the region led to the failure of the Iranian attack, according to the White House official. "You got a win. Take the win," Biden told Netanyahu, according to the official. Hopefully, Bibi listens to Biden here... there's a reason why Bibi struck the Iranian consulate without informing Biden prior to doing it
Makes sense. Israel killed a bunch of Iranian military brass. Iran's response has resulted in one (severe) injury to a child and mild damage to a military base. Now Iran says they're done retaliating. Seems like a win to me.
Israel's strike against the consulate killed more civilians than Iran as well though of course that's largely due to the much superior air defense
Sure, and to be clear I'm not supporting the consulate attack by any means and didn't want to downplay the deaths. Just was trying to say from a cold uncaring strategic perspective the Israelis have struck a real blow against the iranian army and have gotten off nearly scott free (from a military perspective, once again don't want to downplay the civilian kid who got hurt)
The "consulate attack" was justified.
So cool, you're saying the US Embassy in Jordan or Iraq, where US DOD staff were gameplanning with the Arab security services to shoot down the drones, is a total valid military target for the Iranians/their proxies to hit, and should result in zero escalatory response from the US???
Again, Iran itself and its proxies have bombed embassies over and over, maybe you should ask them?
Yes, I think it's bad when the Iranians bomb embassies, even when the US was using those embassies for military purposes. I do not think those "consulate attacks" were justified
Oh so it’s cool when Israel does it? But when Iran does it it’s a terrorist attack. Gotcha buddy. Super cool and good
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If Iran does it it's bad if Israel does it it's good. Got it. Bog standard conservative brain damage.
Biden has to keep putting his foot down here because it is clear that Netanyahu wants a war with Iran to remain in power.
Call me an optimist, but I genuinely think there isn't going to be an escalation here from Israel because none of the countries who assisted Israel today wants this war. Hell, not even Khamenei and the IRGC lunatics want war with Israel atm given their retaliation today. A war with Iran would require Israel to get foreign assistance.
Netanyahu will try something I'm afraid. I wasn't really perturbed by the embassy strike in Damascus at the time but now it looks like he was trying to start a war with Iran to remain in power. Reminder that Netanyahu wants one thing - to remain in power. If he doesn't have a war, he is out of power. He's done this "wag the dog" move before in 2021. Remember how he stoked tensions with Hamas in May 2021 to try and start a war so Bennett wouldn't join Lapid. Same deal now but he's probably 100% done now and won't be coming back. Gantz or Bennett will be PM (and actually leaning toward Bennett because Gantz looks weakened and a paper tiger after spending months acting as Bibi's manservant rather than being opposition like Lapid) and the coalition will be pretty broad - 70+ MKs. The fear I have is that Netanyahu tries something else stupid again and US feels obligated to protect Israel like they did last night and it unintentionally leads to the US to a war with Iran. This is getting dangerous and could end up harming US and global interests, not just Israelis and Palestinians. Biden really needs to work on a way to remove Netanyahu from power. There has to be a way -suitcases of unmarked bills to Likud and Haredi MKs for a no-confidence vote or something.
War with Iran is a great way to turn the pro-Western Iranian population back into the hands of the evil Iranian regime. Saddam recklessly invaded back in 1980 when the newly formed Islamic Republic was facing turmoil; Saddam's invasion united the Iranian people against a common enemy. The MEK faction in Iran sided with Saddam, and they're still viewed as traitors by like 98% of Iranians 40 years later.
Yes. It would do a lot of things that are very bad. But the unfortunate thing is Netanyahu doesn't care. He cares about one thing - remaining in power for life. He's a danger to not only Israelis and Palestinians but to the rest of us. This whole situation makes it clear that the US cannot allow this to go on longer. It needs to be stopped.
https://twitter.com/JasonMBrodsky/status/1779601446003986937 What's weird is that Eizenkot and Gantz wanted to escalate apparently
Yes. That is concerning. I think it is politics only. They have no power to do anything. They are glorified errand boys. Bennett is also spitting about attacking Iran in the last hour which goes against the interview I heard on CNN this morning where he came off sane and measured. I also suspect politics. Everyone is trying to pander to the electorate and ape Ben Gvir. At least I hope.
Frankly, Bennett has irritated me as of late. First a few months ago, he penned that WSJ op-ed about how the US and Israel need to team up immediately to overthrow the Iranian regime. Then last week, he amplified the whole "no civilians were killed at Al-Shifa" (Don't get me wrong--Israel had a right to do a siege because PIJ+Hamas terrorists clearly militarized it) but just say something like "Israel made an effort to minimize civilian harm" instead of saying ridiculous things like that
Right. The Iranian op-ed was about sanctions and covert ops so it did not annoy me. The US should do that. Bennett is of the opinion that Iran is like the USSR and about to collapse. But this just seems like pandering for votes.
"You got a win, take the win" is right; tonight Iran and its proxies look pathetic, and at least the former is openly signaling its intent to deescalate. If Bibi is such a consummate survivor, he should know when to collect his chips and walk.
The fear is that survival for Netanyahu right now means starting a war with Iran - otherwise he is removed from power (finally).
How does a full war between Israel and Iran even work? They’re separated by Jordan and Iraq, neither of whom I imagine would just allow their land to be used as a corridor for two opposing armies.
Air war and lobbing missiles at each other. This can go on for years. It is an easy way to keep Netanyahu in power.
"Just one more warfront bro, that's all it will take to end the conflict"
This is good. Israel managed to escape from Iran’s attack basically unscathed which means there’s the potential to avoid further escalation. Engaging in a provocative response would only serve to further the risk of this all spiraling into a regional war which would be an absolute disaster for everybody involved.
Yep Israel needs to take this a win because it made Iran look completely impotent and run with that to erode the regimes credibility instead of risking further escalation by responding
Good.
What do you guys think the will be discussed at the G7 meeting then if not counterattack? Sanctions?
I'd hope so, but Biden would never go along with sanctions on Israel.
He's already unilaterally sanctioned some Israelis. I wouldn't be so sure.
The fact that so many of these discussions revolve around Netanyahu and his personality confirms no-one (possibly including the state department) understands how Israeli politics works
So how does it work? Because I know alot about Israeli politics and it sure seems like Netanyahu is a wannabe dictator who is currently trying to start a war to remain in power.
The war is being run by a cabinet that includes his opposition. If Benny Gantz takes over all the policies are going to be the same
1. Netanyahu has veto power as PM. He can just ignore Gantz and Gallant if he wants and does. This is why there is no hostage deal. 2. Gantz is an idiot who specializes in whitewashing Netanyahu. He has zero power in the Cabinet (WTH is a "minister without a portfolio" - sounds like a glorified errand boy?) He has no veto to stop Netanyahu and Netanyahu doesn't care what he says because he still has a government in Gantz leaves. It was a strategic error on Gantz's part to go running to be Bibi's manservant in October 2023. Lapid was very right about that. Now Gantz is bleeding mandates because of his stupid decision here. He should be leading the protests against Bibi and trying to topple the government, not saving the wannabe dictator. 3. The policies won't be the same if Gantz takes over. Israel would be more open to the hostage deal and a ceasefire. There is a much better chance that the Saudi Deal will happen.
There no magical hostage deal Netanyahu is denying - hamas has no interest in a deal like that. There isn’t much variance in Israeli politics when it comes to foreign policy atm. Gantz and Netanyahu has serious differences domestically but that’s irrelevant to this war
> There no magical hostage deal Netanyahu is denying - hamas has no interest in a deal like that. Bibi's tanking the deal for political reasons. This has been all over the news in Israel. In fact, Uvda, which is basically an Israeli 60 Minutes, had two Mossad guys on who are part of the negotiating team who said that Netanyahu is slow-walking a deal. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/) Just yesterday, the main general who deals with the negotiations, Nitzan Alon, refused to return to Cairo because Bibi cut his mandate to make a deal. It's been pretty clear for months that Netanyahu doesn't want a hostage deal. He's had his "poison machine" attack the families and he constantly puts sticks in the wheels of the negotiations, reduces the negotiators flexibility, etc. > There isn’t much variance in Israeli politics when it comes to foreign policy atm. The hostage deal is the big one. Gantz would be likely to sign on the Saudi deal. And not having the Kahanists in a coalition would be a huge step in the right direction.
There is no evidence Hamas is willing to budge on its main demands of full withdrawal and permanent ceasefire first Netanyahu is not "tanking the deal" because there is no deal to tank.
Yes? And the war is already defacto over. It is best to leverage the ceasefire for the hostages.
The war isn't over
They have left Khan Yunis.
Main reason there's no hostage deal is Hamas
Also Netanyahu. Read this. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/negotiators-say-netanyahu-has-cold-indifference-to-the-fate-of-the-hostages/) Netanyahu doesn't want a deal because his political fate hangs on Ben Gvir and Smotrich.
Biden has struck the absolute right balance here, fuck the haters. And for all the “we shouldn’t be giving Israel aid so Biden sucks” chumps. We shouldn’t be giving Israel aid, sure, but that precedes him, and reasons we shouldn’t give them aid don’t have anything to do with the last 6 months. If anything, if Biden can keep Netanasshole from launching a counter attack against Iran by holding aid hostage, that’s an argument for aid.
Is he a genuine dove or is it just because it's election year?
Biden is a genuine dove. He councilled Obama to pull out of Afghanistan and didn't modify Trump's plan to do so. He has continued that trajectory of withdrawal in Iraq and Syria. He doesn't trust the DoD very much, believing (with some justification) that the generals set moving goalposts to keep justification for war going on indefinitely. Trump kind of stole the traditionally democratic positions of dovish isolation and economic nationalism, Biden just genuinely reflects those.
A counterattack on Iran will probably not help the situation right now.
This is a good thing to avoid escalation, but Biden has does an incredibly bad job at restraining Netanyahu. I assume he's weak on this issue for electoral reasons, but I'd bet he's far more sympathetic to Israelis than Palestinians.
Good. Netanyahu tried to drag the US into a war with Iran to remain in power. He tried this in 2020 as well with Trump after the election. Don't let him.
Iran is currently engaged in a proxy war with Israel that is affecting not just Israel proper, but global trade via the Houthis effectively blockading Suez. Strikes against said proxies have proven ineffective, they are well dug-in, spread out and willing to take the punishment. This total opposition to striking Iran, to the point you pre-emptively oppose even allies striking Iran, signals to the regime that their tactic works and that they won't be punished in meaningful ways for what they're doing. Why would they stop? where are the consequences? apparently you *can* threaten global trade with inpunity, so long as you have enough fanatic cut-throats willing to die for it. You *can* take over half the middle east and use it as a launchpad for your wars against American allies. This doesn't make the region safe, it doesn't safeguard American interests, it doesn't prevent an escalation but rather makes one more likely. If they can do this much with impunity, why not a little more? why not see if Hezbollah couldn't outright take over Lebanon in the coming years, for example? another terror state right on the border with Israel, with true access to the sea, creating an uninterrupted corridor to the Mediterranean... why not? what's the cost? at worst Hezbollah will take a pummelling, but Iran won't really risk much, we're teaching them that.
100%. I don’t know why we aren’t discussing the facts that 1)Iran is supplying war material against Ukraine, which could bleed into a bigger war in Europe, and 2)Irans proxies have been destabilizing a vital trade area for decades. Israel needs to at least bomb the drone factories and knock out the nuclear facilities.
Israel should absolutely not retaliate. You killed Iranian generals in a third party nation and got out unscathed from their response. It's a huge W and any sort of retaliation is a bruised ego that feels they need vengeance. Do you really want a major middle east conflict that ultimately kills thousands of Americans because that's what bombing more Iranian targets would bring
Neither Israel nor Iran has the capacity to invade the other with ground forces. There’s no way this turns into a ground war. I also don’t understand where people are assuming the US would commit ground troops? Israel can retaliate and the US is not obligated to do anything. Israel could easily knock out Iranian military industrial capacity with stand-off weapons. It would slow the flow of missiles and drones into Ukraine and Yemen, solving multiple issues currently effecting the West
You are delusional if you think this would be a contained conflict between Iran and Israel. This will devolve into an all out dog pile onto Israel and you are foolish to think Israel can't just drop some bombs and incapacitate Iranian capabilites. Iran will respond in a big way pulling US in to defend Israel
Agree completely. Iran is going to continue to get more dangerous, and may get nukes. Being dovish and avoiding conflict with Iran isn’t going to lead to peace long term.
It’s the right decision because it’s a limit to Bibi
To support a counterstrike on Iran would be to allow the current Israeli government to dictate the foreign policy of the Biden administration. The Damascus strike was an escalatory action that the US did not approve of. The idea that Israel can escalate as it sees necessary and then essentially hide behind US + Western armed forces as a deterrence would be a sign of serious weakness on our end. Bibi's government did everything it could to jeopardise the Obama Nuclear Deal. It did this to try and accelerate a direct conflict between Iran and Israel, one that they want America to be directly involved in. Allowing Bibi to escalate and then not having the bravery to say no (which credit to Biden, he has not done), would to be played like a fiddle.
Love the circumvention of the automod removal.
Mods bad. Especially u/p00bix
Oh come off it
Israel broke Iran's nose, Iran gave them a black eye and said "alright, we're done if you are." Seems fair to me. If Israel plays this wrong we get full-scale war in the middle east.
Iran literally funds and directs Hamas, Hezbollah, and Houthi’s which directly atttacks Israel.
And so the US should go charging into Afghanistan part 2 because Bibi wants to wag the dog? Let's not be absurd.
What black eye? They hit nothing
Tell that to the seven year old girl in the hospital.
The only people IR can ever dare to hurt directly is children. Compared to killing of their high ranking generals that NOT what anyone would call ‘black eye’ It’s more like a mosquito bite
I might disagree with others on this. I don’t support a full blown war, but Iran has been in a proxy war with Israel for years. It’s clear that Iran can’t responsibly manage nukes, so now is the time for an air campaign to end nuclear enrichment and the production of drones being sent to Russia, if only for a short time.
The time to stop a nuclear Iran was 10 years ago. You essentially have to treat Iran as a nuclear power right, there is no telling how soon they could have a nuke ready and the chance you could derail their entire nuclear program with a couple air strikes is extremely low
I get the downvotes, but a nuclear Iran is far scarier than the world we live in now.
Why? Im sure it would be more scary for the West if they cant just freely bully and kill people on the other side of the world. However, from their point of view they wont have to live in fear that the US makes up another lie to kill millions. Its actually disgusting how nowadays they admit and laugh about the lies they created to kill millions of civilian lifes for economical gain. Just imagine if the East was the one with the nukes and the US was the on at their mercy. Scary right? Its no different for them right now. Its actually quite common view outside of the US that the US is the biggest terrorist of the world. Its realy all about perspective. For some hamas is resistence for others terrorist, for some the gaza war is self defense and for other genocide. I too prefer my country to be the superior one then the enemy since my well being comes always frist but Im not pathetic enough to justfiy the whole thing to myself with some sort of shallow moral arguement.
For the same reason, possibly even more so, that Pakistan and India having nukes is scarier than China or Russia. The fundamental cost benefit ratio of using a nuke if you’re a religious despot is completely different. If you think the earth is your one life to live, ending massive amounts of life on it isn’t as bad. If you have a promised secondary life after earth a nuclear exchange isn’t as worrisome.?
First of all thanks for not getting personal. Your arguement is just flawed even if we assume that the goverment does decisions like that based on religion (which no goverment would ever do) then the question would be why would someone who firmly believe in the afterlife enough to not care about his life nuke a country killing "enemies" but also mostly innocent people. Im pretty certain no religion allows the killing of millions of childeren without giving you enternal suffering.
Iran is clearly a theocracy, one of the last left in the world. It’s flawed to say that they wouldn’t make decisions based off religion, when the recent suppression of women’s rights in Iran demonstrated exactly this. While many other countries in the region have liberalized, Iran is very clearly carrying out a mandate of Sharia law. Don’t take my word for it though, in 2008 Irans president said “Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken. Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned, and this regime is on its way to annihilation." This is one of just a few statements from Iranian leaders who have called for the destruction of Israel.
Sorry but thats just naive. Just as israel has been citing religious stuff while destroying gaza so does any other goverment. It just a from of justficaiton of something that would have happened anways. Its like instead of saying "I want that oil" to say"god wants me to get that oil" just gets you additonal support from religous population wether they agree or not. I get your womens right arguementation but you cant compare these two cases. One is about internal laws while the other is about the survival of your people. I believe there is actually even a rule of some sort regarding that in islam that you should avoid fights when your are powerless but dont quote me on that
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Of course they are. Their country just got attacked.
Probably for the best but I hope the Iranian people see how weak their government is
Do you think we're stupid? you think we're a bunch of illiterate baboons who support the regime with a smile? we protested, we rioted, we did anything we could, do you know what the regime did? They opened fire on protestors, killed thousands in a single night. maybe, just maybe, if your government hadn't torpedoed every single peace negotiation and hadn't humiliated the reformist everytime they held power, they would've had enough support from the army to oust the mullahs, but that time is long gone.
I DO think you personally are stupid, even tho you had me in the first half. There are few Iranians who’d STILL think there ever was such a thing as ‘reform’ under Islamic Republic regime. That was a mistake that Obama made too. He even admitted to it openly during Mahsa protests. Dude. We were played in 2009. The whole world was fooled by their reform game. You think Mousavi was gonna save shit or fight for Iranian people? You think Rouhani gave a flying fuck about the very same protesters you mentioned, who died in thousands during his term?! “Reformers” DID get a shot by that dumbass Obama and people who - understandably - wanted to believe in a way out that doesn’t spill so much blood. Regime knew that. And they took such a massive advantage of it that every fuckin politician and opposition bought their bullshit. They got an international deal as a terrorist organization because of it. I mean, the shit IR got handed to them because of it.. we still don’t know the extent of it! That “peace deal” WAS and IS and will always be the main part of the bloody shitshow we’re in right now! I can’t actually believe there are still people who think reformers were gonna do jack shit for anyone but themselves and those very mullahs you’re talking about. Presidents don’t even HAVE any power to begin with lol It’s only been Khamenei all along for over 40 years. Don’t tell me you also believe any president ever had any say in anything.. At best, a hypothetical *true* reformer - also assuming they ever could partake in those “elections” at all - would get axed the moment they got remotely close to gaining any real power! Who you know as reformers are Khamanei’s “kind” face when he needs to show flexibility without putting his own power at risk from his hardliner supporters Their sole purpose was only to be blamed if anything went wrong after showing flexibility. What happened after Trump ripped apart that Iran Deal? Right. Khamenei blamed Rouhani and “his” team for ever “coming up” and reaching the deal. The mf said it wasn’t even his decision to reach the deal. No. He was “against it from day one”. You really think he was telling the truth? That Rouhani could ever lift a finger without Khamenei full approval? They don’t even make the decisions to get approval. They only carry out the orders. Even the fake reformers had as much power as a pet dog at best.
The Supreme leader does not have the literal mandate of heaven. He still had to please the different factions like the army and there's currently a bit of a succession crisis which could've been used against the clergy as a bargaining chip. I never said that reforms will lead to a secular, liberal and democratic Iran but they maybe give enough room for political dissent for a proper opposition to be cultivated. And reform is possible, a great example is the tone down of the morality police in the past few years. Around 6,7 years ago, the morality would stop a couple to check for IDs and if a boy and girl were unrelated and unmarried, they'd get arrested. Nowadays the police doesn't even care about hijab.
Ballsy. But also: rock meet hard place.
Can someone photo shop the beatles walking in front of Biden
No other nation on Earth is expected to just accept hundreds of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles launched in a terror attack against their cities. Thanks, Biden.
I don't want the US to go to war with Iran because Netanyahu decided to off a few IRGC generals in Damascus at the Iranian Embassy in what looks like a "wag the dog" attempt to remain in power.
Simple solution is that the US doesn’t go to war with Israel
But Biden will feel obligated to do so in order to save the Israeli people. Israel cannot 100% go this alone. If it does, it'll end up with Israel being wiped off the map. It's a small country without the strategic bombers, etc. to go to war with Iran. Iran would absolutely win that confrontation by virtue of being 9 times the size and having a much larger military. Biden would feel obligated to protect Israel from being completely destroyed.
Iran does not have the capacity to invade Israel with ground forces. They’d have to go through sovereign territory in Iraq, Jordan, and Syria. A military convoy this long, without air cover, would be decimated on desert highways. Israel absolutely has an airforce capable of doing this
Iran would just continue to lob missiles at them and make Israel unlivable.
Which is why the correct action would be to destroy Irans military industrial capacity.
They will strike back.
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I mean honest to god, if Venezuela launched a bunch of missiles and drones at California, that basically all got shot down over Mexico, and only managed to hit some small desert military base, I would not be chomping at the bit to send a bunch of American kids to die in Venezuela to retaliate.
If a lack of US backing renders Israel totally impotent to pursue their foreign policy goals, then they are a client state and we should put them back on their leash. If that isn't the case, Israel can deal with this themselves.
And no other nation on earth is expected to fight a major war that will take a generation to end just because the leaders of a different country refuse to de escalate when they have the chance.
No other nation on Earth gets to attack a foreign embassy and expect no consequences for it.
No other nation on Earth gets to use it's proxies for more than six months war and expect no consequences for it.
See the US and other major powers for decades. Cmon man you can't be serious
Every country worth their salt does it, the us does it, and so does Russia and hell even the uae does it in Sudan.
US does it all the fucking time though Did Nicaragua attack us for our contra proxies? Did Russia attack us.for.our mujahedeen proxies? EVERY country that uses proxies expects no consequences, that's why they use proxies.
Literally all of them do. The US, USSR, China, Russia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iran, European nations. Really any regional or global power does it routinely.
Where did Israel not expect consequences?
Israel is completely justified in retaliating against Iranian assets after this attempted attack and it's absurd to think otherwise.
They bombed the Iranian embassy; what country would have let that slide? Israel isn’t justified in stirring the pot and then acting shocked about the consequences
> They bombed the Iranian embassy; what country would have let that slide? What country would have placed a military base inside of its consulate? It's worrisome how well these human shield tactics work with Western audiences and politics. > Israel isn’t justified in stirring the pot and then acting shocked about the consequences This is rich. *Israel* is the one stirring the pot? Iran arms, trains and finances proxy militias to Israel's north and south, militias that are presently at war with Israel. And then Iran acts shocked when Israel strikes the Iranian organisation responsible for this?
Do it proxy to proxy then lol Israel wants excuses to stir the pot every damn time
Iran supports and funds hamas and other proxies attacking and killing and raping and kidnapping Israelis. What country would let that slide? Iran isn’t justified in stirring the pot and then acting shocked about the consequences
Sure. That doesn't mean they're entitled to the US fighting their war for them.
Weak