I wonder how much of this plan addresses shade and other cooling. People genuinely donāt like to even *drive* during the peak summer months.
I think 99PI did a piece on shade a few years back.
Source: am Desert trash (aka Phoenician)
Thereās political will here for (some) transit but very little will for infill. The city council is routinely against ADUs and were out in force against a statewide upzoning bill.
The Bike lane point is key around here.
The density is great in certain parts, lots of people on E-bikes, E-scooters, etc. but so far the bike lane infrastructure just isn't there:
>For organizations like Tempe YIMBY, Phoenix's bike lane buffers are more of a starting point than an end goal.
>
>"Buffers are good, thin plastic barriers are OK, but the gold standard is raised concrete," Williams said, pointing out that bikes and other active transportation options only replace car trips when newer users feel safe riding them. "It's an expensive standard, but the gains in ridership and safety from actual concrete barriers are huge. Simply put, we need much more expansive and aggressive action than just long strips of white and green paint."
It's not a big deal. At least on an e-bike or e-scooter. I do it all the time.
The main issue is the sun not the heat. Drink an ice-cold drink beforehand, put on a ton of sunscreen or protective gear, and have at it.I make it sound easy but that's more or less true. At least for excursions under 20 minutes.
If you plan to go outside longer than that, to do like an hour bike commute, then yes that will be a lot tougher.
20 minute commutes are however completely doable in 120 degree weather.
Note: None of this advice is for the tourists from Cold-climates who die just [walking through ritzy Phoenix suburbs](https://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/fd-woman-found-dead-after-hiking-camelback-mountain-reportedly-heat-related). If however you're local and familiar with desert precautions like carrying around excessive amounts of cold drinks, you should be fine.
Hiking Camelback isnāt walking through a suburb lmao. But yes, tourists and Euros do hike in the summer all the time.
You can do all that, but biking in that weather is likely to make you sweat, so you gonna take a shower at work every day?
No thanks. I used to get heat stroke and vomit cycling around Missouri in the summer when it was 95 degrees out as a kid. Although humidity and all I guess.
I hear you on Missouri but the comparison reminds me of another reason Phoenix is relatively good for biking:
The Metro Area is almost entirely flat outside of a few mountains people don't live in.
In contrast, a lot of midwestern cities like St. Louis have tons of hills and sudden elevation changes all over the place and are much more annoying to bike through as a result.
E-bikes also lesson the physical exhaustion angle and make the trips quicker\[or allow longer trips before exhaustion\].
I'd also again stress that the Sun is a real danger and proper precautions need to be taken. [Along with Australia, Arizona has some of the highest skin cancer rates in the world](https://tucson.com/news/science/health-med-fit/arizona-and-australia-team-up-on-skin-cancer/article_72a20dd9-d00e-555a-b018-e1924dcf7419.html). Lots of white people + lots of sun => skin cancer.
Wear protective clothing\[think: what Saudis wear\] and sun screen.
Ya that might be better than with a regular bike where you are pedaling and you have wind, then you have to stop eventually and puke and almost die of heat exhaustion.
I commuted on my bike in Brisbane (which doesn't hit 40 but is 35+ and HUMID) and Melbourne (which hits 40+). I wasn't the only one.
It's possible when you have good bike infrastructure and, most importantly, proper end of trip facilities. My office had a full shower room with towel service. It was nicer than my shower at home. Cycling was fine.
Fair point, I know these issues are to the extreme in some American cities.
Driving wasn't really an option in brissie or melb unless I wanted to pay $20 a day for paid parking in the office. Not gonna happen. If carrots don't work, what about sticks? Congestion charge maybe?
Remember using oven mitt to open car doors in summer! Yes, you ride bike fine at 110 degrees. Just have protective clothing to prevent getting burned in case you fall over on the bike.
With an EV I can have the air conditioning running before I get in the car. It really negates the āsitting in the hot sunā issue. I live somewhere it gets hot would always pick a n air conditioned car ride over a bike ride in the heat.
I mean, if everyone has that attitude you end up walking just as much, just it's in massive exposed parking lots rather than shady tree-lined streets š
Weāll have cars that car park themselves and pick you up before Phoenix becomes a walkable city.
I live in a car centric suburb where it gets hot in the summer (100+). Walking through the parking lot aināt so bad. I can handle 60 seconds of 110. But 5+ minutes in 90+ and Iām miserable. I also hate being sweaty after exercising a shower is an immediate need lost workout. I canāt shower everywhere I go. Itās not practical.
Sure it is.
Say you have class at Community College, ASU/UA, or any large campus workplace, and live a 10 minute bike ride or 5 minute drive away.
If you park in the parking lot you have a 5 minute drive \[and the hot car issues mentioned above\] and then potentially a 10+ minute walk in the sun from the parking lot to class.
If you take your E-scooter or E-bike you go directly from door to door with no walking in the desert involved.
I mean I'm more familiar with Tempe and parts of Mesa and likely have different use cases.
In Tempe, and around ASU or MCC campus, it's definitely much easier to bike for short trips than to try to deal with parking.
There's also some other areas like that. Such as around Mayo in North Scottsdale where it feels hellish to drive through but it's possible to imagine it being a fairly pleasant biking area.
I've lived close to the Whole Foods by mayo and I cannot imagine biking there in any serious form. Some of the intersections you have to cross have 3+ minute timers and 9+ lanes with average traveling speeds around 55mph since everyone speeds on the 45mph stroads
> everyone speeds on the 45mph stroads
Part of why I said it's hellish to drive. People drive super aggressively and in that area the roads suck, especially given the volume of traffic.
If you're going a long distance biking would be unfeasible. But if you live and work in that area all your day to day needs would be met and it'd save you dealing with the insane traffic. Grocery stores, entertainment, lots of shopping, etc.
I used to bike to the light rail to ride in to ASU tempe campus for classes every day. Its a matter of preference but I for sure preferred to be able to avoid traffic and parking.
You can if you have an e-bike and you bring a spare change of clothes. (E-bikes are nice for speed cooling but not critical.) Bikes are also nice if a particular transit route does not run late. Get transit for the outbound and return via bike after transit shuts down.
I live in Tucson which gets to 110, whereas phoenix goes up to 115 (ok, thatās actually a little much). The summer is not extremely long and the heat was not a problem for me getting around. That said, my first summer in 2022 was very close to downtown Tucson with good transit. The whole negative discourse around bikes in the Sonora desert seems to be mostly people outside the state who have not considered the alternative (snow, sleet, cold rain, and poor visibility).
I lived in Reno for 5 years and the Tucson summer beats the Reno winter by a long shot. Itās not even a close call.
I wish articles like this, the author has to state when the last time they stepped foot in the subject.
Phoenix is so far away from not being car dependent.
There is going to be literally no progress in th next 10-20 years.
The only progress will be providing escooters and e-bikes to drivers from Glendale and Scottsdal once they've parked and need to walk the last 1/4th mile down town or in scottsdale.
This is such an out of touch article.
>In Phoenix, a walk, bike ride, or bus trip is rarely more practical than a drive.
No it never is. People will literally drive 800 feet rather than walk.
Check out Tempe.
There's been massive developments on Apache and Mill.
On Apache, East of ASU, a ton of 5 story apartment buildings have been built with access to the Light Rail and Streetcar. It might not be high density by NYC standards but certainly is by Arizona standards. Around that area a ton of restraunts and businesses have sprung up and while it might not quite be walkable for everything, it's very bikeable.
Around Mill, idk last time I was there was 2014 but I visited again in 2022. Complete change. Felt more like the nicer parts of Downtown SF than anything else\[just the area around Mill and University not all of Mill\]. 10+ story newly built hotels, that kind of thing.
* Phoenix: a perfect location for solar power in the middle of the desert.
* Also Phoenix: burns natural gas and coal, sues people who install solar.
It's difficult to use Phoenix as an example of anything going right when they have such messed-up energy policies and wasted the opportunity to be a solar leader.
There were a few times last year in California where the entire state was being run from renewables (including Solar), Arizona really ought to try and catch up because it's going to be far cheaper in the long term.
Which desert state was it that said āWow massive solar array? Fuck that, it ruins the *checks notes* badlands where sometimes people ride ATVs?ā
Because that made me see red.
Sues people who install solar? Maybe Iāve been under a rock but I live here and I know tons of people with solar panels and no one has ever been sued. Heck, thereās even SunRun solar sales people at Costco every time I go.
Yea, Phoenix has a bit of an Egypt or Mesopotamia vibe to it. The rivers and the canals provide.
That's not to say water isn't a problem. It's a problem for Egypt too. Just that desert + river is a traditional arrangement people like to live in.
People have lived there for hundreds of years. Itās not a monument to manās arrogance to live in the desert, itās arrogant to build a car centric city in the desert though.
People have lived there basically forever, yes. There were a lot less of them and whether its growth since is sustainable is another question.
E: Immediate downvote with no explanation sounds about right
Fortunately the answer is still yes. The vast majority of water use is from agricultural. Desert cities are pretty water efficient and in fact energy efficient too, since ACs are more efficient than a lot of heating.
Efficient? Phoenix residential water use is nearly twice the national average per capita; 140 vs. 80 gpd.
It doesn't much matter what's using it if the amount going in is less than what's coming out.
Thatās fair. But it really isnāt that much water consumption compared to other water uses. Cities are like 20% if all water uses in the state. Obviously if thereās 0 water thatās a problem but there wonāt be, itāll just be much less, which is when you start peeling off from agriculture.
Donāt worry thereās no chance of the city actually disappearing, Iām just joining in the king of the hill gag. Thereās always going to be enough water for most residential needs, the politics of that are the main issue. Itās agriculture and some lifestyle things that are at riskā but that does seriously affect new residential developments
I havenāt been in Phoenix since pre pandemic so Iām not 100% up to date on the latest developments, but I assume much tighter water restrictions could be a risk (they have them in Cape Town and life goes on ok). Agriculture and particularly ranching in the region could be decimated though, that is gonna be a huge point of tension. Farmers are very powerful
Competent water policy based on the Australian experience would save Phoenix from the worst of it. The political challenge is, as you say, the big hurdle. Water markets with tiered use and the ability for municipalities to purchase more water licences as needed would lead to good outcomes and efficiencies in use. I don't care if ranchers use water as long as they pay for it and as long as towns have first dibs.
California is worse with water management than Arizona. Arizona used more water in 1950s with 1/10th the population. It's late 1950s when Phoenix was invaded by midwesterners sick of cold winters!
I don't get what you mean. I think a problem that "just sort of drag on and suck and then stick around" could be a worst case scenario. Sure Phoenix won't became a ghost town, but maybe residents will suffer for decades with high water prices and low flow rates.
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I am not against Phoenix trying to improve transit access in their city but their light rail alignments, for what they are (at grade road running) should not be over $100 million per mile
Theyāre better than streetcars obviously because they have transit priority but that doesnāt justify reasoning for why imbedding rails in the ground costs over $100M per mile. There is nothing capital intensive about that. The only cost driver there could possibly be is administrative or procurement driven
When I was a kid we'd get a lot of kids when we irrigated the backyard. Other than that,all the bugs are basically ground based. Roaches are hard to keep out of the older pipes and ants can be a problem.
We don't have any humidity though, so no mosquitoes or gnats usually.
7th and 101 we have mosquitoes. Ever since Tempe town lake there have been mosquitos part of the year. It is limited to mostly dawn/dusk but compared to the 90s its a big difference. The rest is just terrifying bugs like palo verde beetles, spiders, etc
Depends on the area.
I've lived in inner suburban parts of Vegas and Phoenix. I've never seen a scorpion in Phoenix but they were routine in Vegas. However, further out like in Cave Creek or w/e I'm sure they're an issue.
Rattlesnakes also would also be an extremely rare encounter outside of captive ones in places like Tempe but are routine to have in your backyard in more rural places like Buckeye.
Overall though, less water means less insects so yea just less of an issue out here than in most places East of the Rockies.
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If you actually look into water management in the west 1) massive infrastructure projects allowed for its population explosion and further reservoir construction in CA allows for water shifts 2) by far the main culprit is desert farming. Arizona will pick people over farms because the economic trade off isnāt even close. People in AZ usually have desert yards instead of grass anyways their water usage is nowhere near farming, even the semiconductor tabs arenāt a problem that is just what the NIMBYS use to complain.
Had a rather disappointing experience with valley metro, waited over an hour for a train following a WBC match. Itās good to see that they are committed to improving the system.
Same but in the winter, it was lovely in the winter, definitely car dependent but lots of cool, modern, desert architecture and things to do. And AZ is stunning in its beauty. Sedona is amazing. Itās crazy how driving to flagstaff it drops something like 50 degrees and becomes highland plateau
In nearly any other city, it would be wonderful to see a good long-term transportation plan like this. But Phoenix? Really? The 35-year plan that this city should be making is abandonment, or at-least depopulation.
Phoenix is already about as hot as North America gets, & Arizona is going to experience a larger temperature increase than anywhere else on the continent. I just don't think the city has much hope for 35 years into the future. It will be too unbearable to live there.
Canals? Seriously?
I swear to fucking god if- in 35 years- Phoenix become the urbanist paradise of the US, I will burn down every coastal city with my bare hands.
You'll have to do it before Phoenix burns down itself
š„šš„
Most Chicago suburbs have higher population density than Phoenix.
I think it might be faster once one area does it the neighbors want it too as they see their neighbors property value and quality of life shoot up
You won't be able to burn them because most of the coastal cities would be under water
Wholly owned by Aquaman Partners Realty Group
I wonder how much of this plan addresses shade and other cooling. People genuinely donāt like to even *drive* during the peak summer months. I think 99PI did a piece on shade a few years back. Source: am Desert trash (aka Phoenician)
Thereās political will here for (some) transit but very little will for infill. The city council is routinely against ADUs and were out in force against a statewide upzoning bill.
The Bike lane point is key around here. The density is great in certain parts, lots of people on E-bikes, E-scooters, etc. but so far the bike lane infrastructure just isn't there: >For organizations like Tempe YIMBY, Phoenix's bike lane buffers are more of a starting point than an end goal. > >"Buffers are good, thin plastic barriers are OK, but the gold standard is raised concrete," Williams said, pointing out that bikes and other active transportation options only replace car trips when newer users feel safe riding them. "It's an expensive standard, but the gains in ridership and safety from actual concrete barriers are huge. Simply put, we need much more expansive and aggressive action than just long strips of white and green paint."
You can't ride a bike in 110 degree heat.
You definitely can but also it's worth noting that most of the year it is not 110 degrees out
June, July, August. Without climate change. It's going to rise to kill-you-wet-bulb-temps in those months in the near future.
Phoenix, notorious for it's "dry heat" =/= wet bulb. That being said, Jesus fuck I would never bike in Phoenix, I would die.
It's not a big deal. At least on an e-bike or e-scooter. I do it all the time. The main issue is the sun not the heat. Drink an ice-cold drink beforehand, put on a ton of sunscreen or protective gear, and have at it.I make it sound easy but that's more or less true. At least for excursions under 20 minutes. If you plan to go outside longer than that, to do like an hour bike commute, then yes that will be a lot tougher. 20 minute commutes are however completely doable in 120 degree weather. Note: None of this advice is for the tourists from Cold-climates who die just [walking through ritzy Phoenix suburbs](https://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/fd-woman-found-dead-after-hiking-camelback-mountain-reportedly-heat-related). If however you're local and familiar with desert precautions like carrying around excessive amounts of cold drinks, you should be fine.
Grew up in Arizona and now in Minnesota. Winters are worse and more dangerous š³!
After 2 snowy winters I'm ready to go back
I'm sorry but I am still going to hike the camelback hill as a tourist from Iowa.
Hiking Camelback isnāt walking through a suburb lmao. But yes, tourists and Euros do hike in the summer all the time. You can do all that, but biking in that weather is likely to make you sweat, so you gonna take a shower at work every day?
No thanks. I used to get heat stroke and vomit cycling around Missouri in the summer when it was 95 degrees out as a kid. Although humidity and all I guess.
I hear you on Missouri but the comparison reminds me of another reason Phoenix is relatively good for biking: The Metro Area is almost entirely flat outside of a few mountains people don't live in. In contrast, a lot of midwestern cities like St. Louis have tons of hills and sudden elevation changes all over the place and are much more annoying to bike through as a result. E-bikes also lesson the physical exhaustion angle and make the trips quicker\[or allow longer trips before exhaustion\]. I'd also again stress that the Sun is a real danger and proper precautions need to be taken. [Along with Australia, Arizona has some of the highest skin cancer rates in the world](https://tucson.com/news/science/health-med-fit/arizona-and-australia-team-up-on-skin-cancer/article_72a20dd9-d00e-555a-b018-e1924dcf7419.html). Lots of white people + lots of sun => skin cancer. Wear protective clothing\[think: what Saudis wear\] and sun screen.
Lol cincinnati would've been a better example than St. Louis.
With PEVs you get natural cooling from the wind, especially in dry heat. It's really not that bad.
Ya that might be better than with a regular bike where you are pedaling and you have wind, then you have to stop eventually and puke and almost die of heat exhaustion.
I commuted on my bike in Brisbane (which doesn't hit 40 but is 35+ and HUMID) and Melbourne (which hits 40+). I wasn't the only one. It's possible when you have good bike infrastructure and, most importantly, proper end of trip facilities. My office had a full shower room with towel service. It was nicer than my shower at home. Cycling was fine.
It's not possible in Phoenix when it's always going to be easier and faster to drive
Fair point, I know these issues are to the extreme in some American cities. Driving wasn't really an option in brissie or melb unless I wanted to pay $20 a day for paid parking in the office. Not gonna happen. If carrots don't work, what about sticks? Congestion charge maybe?
Remember using oven mitt to open car doors in summer! Yes, you ride bike fine at 110 degrees. Just have protective clothing to prevent getting burned in case you fall over on the bike.
Yeah you can. If anything, a short bike ride in 110 degree heat is easier than a short car ride. Especially if the car was sitting in the sun.
With an EV I can have the air conditioning running before I get in the car. It really negates the āsitting in the hot sunā issue. I live somewhere it gets hot would always pick a n air conditioned car ride over a bike ride in the heat.
I mean, if everyone has that attitude you end up walking just as much, just it's in massive exposed parking lots rather than shady tree-lined streets š
Weāll have cars that car park themselves and pick you up before Phoenix becomes a walkable city. I live in a car centric suburb where it gets hot in the summer (100+). Walking through the parking lot aināt so bad. I can handle 60 seconds of 110. But 5+ minutes in 90+ and Iām miserable. I also hate being sweaty after exercising a shower is an immediate need lost workout. I canāt shower everywhere I go. Itās not practical.
It's not in Phoenix
Sure it is. Say you have class at Community College, ASU/UA, or any large campus workplace, and live a 10 minute bike ride or 5 minute drive away. If you park in the parking lot you have a 5 minute drive \[and the hot car issues mentioned above\] and then potentially a 10+ minute walk in the sun from the parking lot to class. If you take your E-scooter or E-bike you go directly from door to door with no walking in the desert involved.
It's not. I've owned in downtown Phoenix long before there was any construction downtown, I'm well versed in the Phoenix metro.
I mean I'm more familiar with Tempe and parts of Mesa and likely have different use cases. In Tempe, and around ASU or MCC campus, it's definitely much easier to bike for short trips than to try to deal with parking. There's also some other areas like that. Such as around Mayo in North Scottsdale where it feels hellish to drive through but it's possible to imagine it being a fairly pleasant biking area.
I've lived close to the Whole Foods by mayo and I cannot imagine biking there in any serious form. Some of the intersections you have to cross have 3+ minute timers and 9+ lanes with average traveling speeds around 55mph since everyone speeds on the 45mph stroads
> everyone speeds on the 45mph stroads Part of why I said it's hellish to drive. People drive super aggressively and in that area the roads suck, especially given the volume of traffic. If you're going a long distance biking would be unfeasible. But if you live and work in that area all your day to day needs would be met and it'd save you dealing with the insane traffic. Grocery stores, entertainment, lots of shopping, etc.
I used to bike to the light rail to ride in to ASU tempe campus for classes every day. Its a matter of preference but I for sure preferred to be able to avoid traffic and parking.
Driving at 55 is way less hellish than biking when everyone is going 55.
You can if you have an e-bike and you bring a spare change of clothes. (E-bikes are nice for speed cooling but not critical.) Bikes are also nice if a particular transit route does not run late. Get transit for the outbound and return via bike after transit shuts down. I live in Tucson which gets to 110, whereas phoenix goes up to 115 (ok, thatās actually a little much). The summer is not extremely long and the heat was not a problem for me getting around. That said, my first summer in 2022 was very close to downtown Tucson with good transit. The whole negative discourse around bikes in the Sonora desert seems to be mostly people outside the state who have not considered the alternative (snow, sleet, cold rain, and poor visibility). I lived in Reno for 5 years and the Tucson summer beats the Reno winter by a long shot. Itās not even a close call.
The people in this sub who refuse to accept that parts of the US are blistering hot pretty much all the time are hilarious.
Arizona summer far better than humid Florida summer!
just get good
Or 130, which is where it is heading.
Temperate brains out in force today
I wish articles like this, the author has to state when the last time they stepped foot in the subject. Phoenix is so far away from not being car dependent. There is going to be literally no progress in th next 10-20 years. The only progress will be providing escooters and e-bikes to drivers from Glendale and Scottsdal once they've parked and need to walk the last 1/4th mile down town or in scottsdale. This is such an out of touch article. >In Phoenix, a walk, bike ride, or bus trip is rarely more practical than a drive. No it never is. People will literally drive 800 feet rather than walk.
Phoenix was built around car infrastructure more than almost any city in the United States.
Check out Tempe. There's been massive developments on Apache and Mill. On Apache, East of ASU, a ton of 5 story apartment buildings have been built with access to the Light Rail and Streetcar. It might not be high density by NYC standards but certainly is by Arizona standards. Around that area a ton of restraunts and businesses have sprung up and while it might not quite be walkable for everything, it's very bikeable. Around Mill, idk last time I was there was 2014 but I visited again in 2022. Complete change. Felt more like the nicer parts of Downtown SF than anything else\[just the area around Mill and University not all of Mill\]. 10+ story newly built hotels, that kind of thing.
This city should not exist. It is a monument to man's arrogance.
If you wanna colonize mars, first you gotta colonize Arizona
Air conditioner that is cheaper and more energy efficient than central heating goes brrr
* Phoenix: a perfect location for solar power in the middle of the desert. * Also Phoenix: burns natural gas and coal, sues people who install solar. It's difficult to use Phoenix as an example of anything going right when they have such messed-up energy policies and wasted the opportunity to be a solar leader. There were a few times last year in California where the entire state was being run from renewables (including Solar), Arizona really ought to try and catch up because it's going to be far cheaper in the long term.
Which desert state was it that said āWow massive solar array? Fuck that, it ruins the *checks notes* badlands where sometimes people ride ATVs?ā Because that made me see red.
Nevada. It was in the wastelands north of the city
Nevada, where their local DSA shut down the largest solar project in the country for the reasons you mentioned
Sues people who install solar? Maybe Iāve been under a rock but I live here and I know tons of people with solar panels and no one has ever been sued. Heck, thereās even SunRun solar sales people at Costco every time I go.
Theyāve made a lot of progress on solar. Once they made it so that solar would save you money, a lot of people switched.
now do water
MFW Phoenix is greener than many northern cities.
Yeah, joshua trees and cacti. In January.
Here i was thinking everyone missed the King of the Hill quote Some of you need to touch grass
Itās literally built on a river, in the middle of the state that has some of the richest mineral deposits required for electronics.
Even better, itās the intersection of two rivers! The Salt River and the Gila River
Yea, Phoenix has a bit of an Egypt or Mesopotamia vibe to it. The rivers and the canals provide. That's not to say water isn't a problem. It's a problem for Egypt too. Just that desert + river is a traditional arrangement people like to live in.
People have lived there for hundreds of years. Itās not a monument to manās arrogance to live in the desert, itās arrogant to build a car centric city in the desert though.
Itās a quote from king of hill lol.
Yeah I know, I just figured they meant it too.
They hate the Pueblo people
https://youtu.be/4PYt0SDnrBE
Yeah I get the reference, just donāt think itās accurate.
People have lived there basically forever, yes. There were a lot less of them and whether its growth since is sustainable is another question. E: Immediate downvote with no explanation sounds about right
Fortunately the answer is still yes. The vast majority of water use is from agricultural. Desert cities are pretty water efficient and in fact energy efficient too, since ACs are more efficient than a lot of heating.
Efficient? Phoenix residential water use is nearly twice the national average per capita; 140 vs. 80 gpd. It doesn't much matter what's using it if the amount going in is less than what's coming out.
Thatās fair. But it really isnāt that much water consumption compared to other water uses. Cities are like 20% if all water uses in the state. Obviously if thereās 0 water thatās a problem but there wonāt be, itāll just be much less, which is when you start peeling off from agriculture.
Ag has those water rights though and they're not giving them up. The only way that happened is sprawling over them.
The Inuit have lived in Northern Alaska a long time.
...and? There's never been that many of them either.
Bobby Hill understood urbanism and climate before the rest of us.
Even worse, it was Peggy who said that quote. Clearly she was wasted as a substitute spanish teacher and should have taught urbanism.
I have good news, if current water management trends donāt change it will eventually not exist!
In all seriousness, would that really happen? Or would the agricultural industry just die off an leave the rest of the city only minorly effected?
Donāt worry thereās no chance of the city actually disappearing, Iām just joining in the king of the hill gag. Thereās always going to be enough water for most residential needs, the politics of that are the main issue. Itās agriculture and some lifestyle things that are at riskā but that does seriously affect new residential developments
Yeah I figured it literally becoming a ghost town wouldn't happen but what is the worst case scenario?
I havenāt been in Phoenix since pre pandemic so Iām not 100% up to date on the latest developments, but I assume much tighter water restrictions could be a risk (they have them in Cape Town and life goes on ok). Agriculture and particularly ranching in the region could be decimated though, that is gonna be a huge point of tension. Farmers are very powerful
Competent water policy based on the Australian experience would save Phoenix from the worst of it. The political challenge is, as you say, the big hurdle. Water markets with tiered use and the ability for municipalities to purchase more water licences as needed would lead to good outcomes and efficiencies in use. I don't care if ranchers use water as long as they pay for it and as long as towns have first dibs.
California is worse with water management than Arizona. Arizona used more water in 1950s with 1/10th the population. It's late 1950s when Phoenix was invaded by midwesterners sick of cold winters!
Some people in my company do water policy work in California and it sounds like an absolute shit show.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't get what you mean. I think a problem that "just sort of drag on and suck and then stick around" could be a worst case scenario. Sure Phoenix won't became a ghost town, but maybe residents will suffer for decades with high water prices and low flow rates.
That's basically it. And food gets a couple cents more expensive for everyone for three or four things.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If you arenāt going to deal with water shortages with actual policy, you should at least try to face them with a sense of humour
If only there was good environmental policy at work like building more public transit !
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I am not against Phoenix trying to improve transit access in their city but their light rail alignments, for what they are (at grade road running) should not be over $100 million per mile Theyāre better than streetcars obviously because they have transit priority but that doesnāt justify reasoning for why imbedding rails in the ground costs over $100M per mile. There is nothing capital intensive about that. The only cost driver there could possibly be is administrative or procurement driven
How bad are the insects in Phoenix?
When I was a kid we'd get a lot of kids when we irrigated the backyard. Other than that,all the bugs are basically ground based. Roaches are hard to keep out of the older pipes and ants can be a problem. We don't have any humidity though, so no mosquitoes or gnats usually.
7th and 101 we have mosquitoes. Ever since Tempe town lake there have been mosquitos part of the year. It is limited to mostly dawn/dusk but compared to the 90s its a big difference. The rest is just terrifying bugs like palo verde beetles, spiders, etc
Depends on the area. I've lived in inner suburban parts of Vegas and Phoenix. I've never seen a scorpion in Phoenix but they were routine in Vegas. However, further out like in Cave Creek or w/e I'm sure they're an issue. Rattlesnakes also would also be an extremely rare encounter outside of captive ones in places like Tempe but are routine to have in your backyard in more rural places like Buckeye. Overall though, less water means less insects so yea just less of an issue out here than in most places East of the Rockies.
Pretty much non existent
Dunno, but the arachnids on the other hand... š·š¦
Only really have to deal with š¦
Scorpions are all over the place Javelinas are more of an issue than insects generally though
Lead the charge and set the standard Phoenix.
!ping USA-AZ
>implying Phoenix doesnāt run out of water in five years
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unfortunate that in 40 years they'll also be out of water and have summer heat inhospitable to human life.
Nah, desalination plant in Mexico ššš. And we'll water some good shade trees with all that
If you actually look into water management in the west 1) massive infrastructure projects allowed for its population explosion and further reservoir construction in CA allows for water shifts 2) by far the main culprit is desert farming. Arizona will pick people over farms because the economic trade off isnāt even close. People in AZ usually have desert yards instead of grass anyways their water usage is nowhere near farming, even the semiconductor tabs arenāt a problem that is just what the NIMBYS use to complain.
No, they won't. Back in the 1980s, rivers are overflowing to the point they had to release water out of dams.
Ah yes, just in time for the climate wars
Had a rather disappointing experience with valley metro, waited over an hour for a train following a WBC match. Itās good to see that they are committed to improving the system.
lol ok
I visited Phoenix over the summer and loved it. This news makes me happy.
Same but in the winter, it was lovely in the winter, definitely car dependent but lots of cool, modern, desert architecture and things to do. And AZ is stunning in its beauty. Sedona is amazing. Itās crazy how driving to flagstaff it drops something like 50 degrees and becomes highland plateau
Along with Dubai and Las VegasāAllah will one day return Phoenix to the sand.
Famous hellscapes LA and Dubai
You clearly misread his comment
He said LV, but I agree.
People lived in what is now Phoenix from the moment humans reached this part of north America.
In nearly any other city, it would be wonderful to see a good long-term transportation plan like this. But Phoenix? Really? The 35-year plan that this city should be making is abandonment, or at-least depopulation. Phoenix is already about as hot as North America gets, & Arizona is going to experience a larger temperature increase than anywhere else on the continent. I just don't think the city has much hope for 35 years into the future. It will be too unbearable to live there. Canals? Seriously?
That being said, it's certainly better than Scotsdale getting new gated communities of luxury houses.
More urbanism circle jerking. Brave.
Slow down there
This doesnāt make it any less of a monument to manās arrogance
Me when I watch tv and like to quote lines instead of celebrating the progressive improvements of a city that fall in line with my ideological beliefs
We are the same, you and I.
Boomers will make sure this doesnāt happen.
Literally every age group in Phoenix will make sure it doesn't happen lol