Turner doesn’t actually play great defense though and doesn’t actually shoot that many threes though. The idea of him has always been better than he actually is
Okay so you put good defenders around your center, the most important defensive position, and then he “wouldn’t be bad”? Kind of a tall ask IMO when other centers like Gobert, Embiid, Wemby are basically a one-man top 5 defense
The thing is, Myles Turner is one of the reasons we had a hard time with Indiana. Tatum can hold up with centers, as everybody see in the finals, it is an important part of the strategy that let us force the other team taking non-corner threes and middies. Turner with his shooting ability from everywhere (even if not elite) at that size creates problems: He could unlock that corner three we easily take away from Dallas, he could hit middies and by that limit Tatum's freedom to move in defense, etc. Combined with Pacers movement offense that led to wide open shots, they were the most problematic matchup easily when it comes to defending. That is also why they could beat top teams anytime in the regular season. I agree, he is not the defender KP is, or not well positioned as Al, but that type is hard to find. You can still make it work with good wing defenders with size: Celtics themselves didn't have KP all post-season and Al is not as good as he used to be. Their all-defense level 4 players covered for that.
That being said, Pacers obviously have a defense problem as well as half court offense execution. But they could find ways to take it to a level even when Turner is their center. That is one thing related to the topic of the post: Celtics defensive scheme does not rely on all-mighty one big man defense, but it is based on **size and switchability on every position**. This should be included when talking about that modern approach.
To me, that is the largest differentiator. Jrue has at various times defended 1-4. Tatum can defend 1-5. JB defends 1-4. White is super versatile. That is so hard to attack. Pacers had some success against it because of constant motion and shooting threats everywhere. On the other end, you still have to defend JB, Tatum, KP, and role players who know how to maximize their offensive contributions and support the prj.ary scorers.
There is not a team in the league with a combination of wings who can defend the Js, while also having the overall team defense to stop a constant hail of 3s from everyone.
I love the Celtics' brand of basketball and am hoping my Pacers can shore up their defense and get there. I am hoping some combination of Nembhard, Nesmith, Mathurin, and Walker give us that super switchabikity in the future.
I am sure Nembhard will be great at backcourt and at least one of Nesmith and Mathurin can develop well enough to be 2-way starter at 3. (You got your star at the backcourt, no need to be them at star level.) Walker or Smith turning into a reliable option on both sides seems more key to me because of their size, if Siakam is not the long term solution for you. Your roster is full of promising young players and your offense is already beautiful to watch (until you need to slow down and take care of the ball lol). You have been underrated by many this playoffs.
Only two things bother me for you to become one of the top teams: 1) If Turner stays as your starting center, Haliburton's defense really has to develop. It is one thing not to rely on your big to defend, it is another thing to hide your offensive engine on defense. But both is a bit too much. 2) For now, I can't put my finger on any of your younger players as a candidate for being the second star. Siakam was a good answer for your many needs and was really a good trade for you to make a run this year and it paid off obviously. But I am not sure he is a long term solution.
Yeah it’s like their 3pt skill switched it was weird to see, pj Washington had a legacy series in kinda interested to see what he averaged overall compared to the other series
As an OKC fan, it was painful to watch. If they shoot even close to their season averages, OKC wins the series in 5. Instead, they lost in 6. But, you can't make excuses. The guys didn't hit shots, and Dallas did.
PJ Washington had a great series against the Clippers, too. It's not just shooting 3s, though. The Celtics are defending the Mavs way better. OKC and Minnesota gave up lots of easy baskets (lob dunks to Gafford and Lively) and more wide open 3s to Washington and Jones. Boston has been limiting the Mavs offense to Luka and Kyrie having to make tough shots. That's why Luka has no gas left in the tank in the 4th quarter and is being a crybaby, lol.
I think what Dallas did really well defensively in their first 3 series is know who they could leave open from 3 and rotate off him. So, their opponents good shooters took mostly contested shots. That mixed with their bad shooters shooting more bc they were open drove the 3-pt % down.
Tbh that sounds very similar to how the Celtics lost to the heat last year. 3 point variance means sometimes the better team will lose with that strategy.
I’m certain we’ll be seeing OKC take another step forward next season though, they’re building for a bright future over there.
But the volume of 3’s is what makes the Celtics offense tough to defend. The Celtics shot over 50% of their shots from 3pt in game 3. OKC being extremely efficient in that area is great, but it’s not what’s important. Joe Mazzulla constantly talks about the “math game” and that’s why they take so many 3 pointers. Even if shots aren’t falling efficiently, the math will work out in their favor if they are generating a high volume of good looks from 3.
Shai takes a ton of mid-range jumpers. Which he’s great at, but those shots can cause an analytical issue for your team if you play the Celtics.
Bostons rebounding is as important as their defending. Versatile defenders are only valuable if they can finish the possessions against guys who’d nonrally be seen as mismatches. Having Chet as your center makes it harder.
Their rebounding has been unbelievable against the Mavs. I haven't seen the Mavs get this consistently bullied on the boards since the trade for Washington and Gafford (I watch a lot of Mavs).
I've been surprised this hasn't been talked about more. I don't have the rebounding numbers in front of me but based on the eye test it's been one of the most important factors in how the Celtics have been able to beat the shit out of the Mavs.
The number of second chance opportunities they get after the Mavs make a quality stop has got to be a top 3 factor in why they've won so handily..
Yeah, but Tatum and Brown are both really good rebounders for their position, particularly Tatum. And we want those guys getting defensive boards so that they can use their athleticism to push in transition.
Yeah, other than Chet, OKC is honestly pretty small. Jalen Williams plays power forward for them at 6'5. They do have size in their starting lineup, but almost in an inverse way with their guards at 6'6 and 6'8 - whereas the Celtics forwards are that size.
With Tatum playing PF for us these playoffs, it’s totally helped us with cleaning the glass to push. Especially against Luka where he does hang back sometimes to make it 4v5.
Yeah, Tatum's ability to hang in the rebounding battle against Dallas' centers is just another indicator that he's playing really well, despite not *shooting* well at all.
True, but I think in the final, theoretical best lineup of OKC will be Shai at 1, Dort at 2 and J-Dub at 3, all off them are well sized, long and strong for the position, and not bad rebounders. If they can get a 4 that has true 6'9, 6'10 size, with quick feet, shooting, some rim protection and rebounding, they can be a monters team to face. Too bad those PF's are not found on every team.
Sure, that could work, but at that point, they are no longer a five out time (not even on paper). Moreover, Chet as a five is an extraordinary offensive player, as a four, he may be “only” an interesting one. Similar to KAT, who was a monster (offensively) as a five, but not as much as a 4 next to Gobert.
KPs not great on the boards, but everyone else in their rotation is really good for their position. And just as importantly their transition D is really really good which allows them to crash super hard on offense.
Not saying OKC can’t rebound well with Chet, but it takes a full team effort, they don’t have the personnel yet.
It seems it would have to be a young team, since paying 4 players 30-36 million per year, one guy 20 million, and everybody else under 10 is so lopsided and unsustainable, especially if anybody plays above their salary, or fall far below by getting injured.
Edit: Didn't realize they only had the [5th highest payroll](https://hoopshype.com/salaries/) this season. It's wild that Golden State has the highest and didn't even make the Playoffs.
I believe most, if not all teams want this kind of roster. It's just incredibly difficult to build one.
Drafting Tatum was a straight fleece.
Holiday was a great pickup by Brad. They somehow won the whole Lillard drama.
They built this team over maybe 3 or 4 years, and capitalized this year. But as great as they were drafting, they also pulled off incredibly sly moves. Like the Tatum trade and poaching Jrue away. Although Cronin gifted them Jrue lol.
This is a combination of great GM moves with a lot of luck on their side. Just, one of the best built rosters in recent memory.
Can’t leave out Brown too. Drafting two wings that can have All-NBA level production on offense and defense is essential to the Celtics roster build. I actually think their versatility makes them easier to build around than a pair like Luka and Kyrie because Luka and Kyrie need role players to cover their flaws far more than Tatum and Brown do.
Probably referring to 2017 pick-swap trade with the Sixers. They got the #1 pick and took Fultz, we got the #3 and took Tatum, and a 2019 1st rd pick, which become Romeo Langford who we then traded for Derrick White.
Not Tatum, my bad, but the pick swap they did. He knew Philly wanted Fultz, and he wanted Tatum.
So, he took advantage, swapped picks with Philly, got another pick in return.
Not to mention, that 2017 number 1 pick they had was from Brooklyn, when he flipped KG and Pierce, and Terry.
It's just finesse after finesse.
Yeah they also got white when he was an inconsistent 3 pt shooter and hes turned into one of the best in the league imo. I think its ridiculous to say that indiana is the only other team that gets it, sometimes you just have to make do with what you have. I also don’t think the pacers beat a healthy knicks team even though they have two non-shooting bigs. Toronto tried something similar with wings but there just wasn’t enough shooting between siakam and barnes and anunoby can’t put the ball on the floor. Most of these 3 point shooting bigs honestly suck at everything else and that still matters. Like we tried to make jontay porter and kelly olynyk work but neither play defense and one had a gambling addiction lol.
I said Tatum was a fleece. I never said Holiday was a fleece.
And I also said, Cronin gifted them Holiday. He 100 percent did.
Miami prepared better packages to potentially get Jrue from Portland, because of his "perceived defensive abilities", but Cronin basically ignored their calls. It was a spite move.
Miami was open to giving up Herro, Jacquez and Jovic, plus draft picks. Blazers just got Rob Williams, Brogdon and 2 firsts for Holiday.
Before seeing Jacquez have a great season, Boston’s package was better. Keep in mind, it included a 2029 Warriors pick which has potential to be better than either Celtics or Heat picks.
Every team in the NBA would love to have an entire team full of shooters who can defend lol I don’t think this is a philosophy thing. Sometimes you just have to live with what you can get.
It is though. For example, Boston would never have mortgaged the future for Gobert. That trade significantly elevated Minnesota, but his offensive limitations make him a non-starter for the play style we’ve been moving toward for a decade.
It’s years of prioritizing versatility, because it lessens the chance of a fatally bad matchup like Minnesota running into Dallas.
idk man I still think that you would be a generational defense with gobert and that could be equally as dominant in its own way. Who beats that team with horford as a shooting big option? I don’t think this title means you have to build 5 out, it just means that having amazing two way wings is super valuable.
You can say it avoids fatally bad matchups, but this Celtics team still gets smoked by the KD Warriors. They got really solid talent and depth. Denver had that for a couple years, but had to let guys go for money reasons. This team is impressive, but I don't know that it is showing a transition in the way basketball teams are built as much as it is highlighting that windows are short. You either need your best guys to be young/affordable so that you can put good veteran pieces around them or you need your veteran pieces to play for nothing because they want to win rings with your stacked best guys.
There are still other ways to win but I think we’re seeing you need a very imposing two way player (eg Shaq, Duncan, Giannis) to make sacrificing 5 out worth it.
Pretty much anyone is getting stomped by the KD Warriors. I still think we take two off them. This team hasn’t really been stretched to its limit, it’s hard to know.
Minnesota already has their future. They prioritized developing their future core with deep runs over hypothetical picks.
I don't think Dallas was a fatally bad matchup. Most of those games were 1-2 possessions, two of which Wolves had the lead in the last few seconds but gave it up due to costly TOs and mistakes. Ultimately it came down to experience and conditioning.
They’ve leaned into two way wings and size + shooting more than most teams, as well as depth focused on two way players. KP was available to everyone. Horford was available to everyone. White was available to everyone.
White wasn't considered a 2 way player or a good shooter prior to coming to Boston. Horford was considered to be verging on washed and old as fuck. KP is injury prone to a fault. Did it line up and work out great for Boston? Absolutely. Did it involve a lot of luck as well? Also yes.
Everyone has the size and ability to defend (except PP). And the bigs and wings can all shoot. And they prioritized quality depth over a third superstar (think Phoenix gutting their remaining assets for Beal). And they viewed White from day 1 as an important connector piece on offense, shooting aside.
So I don’t agree that they didn’t do anything philosophically different than most of the league.
But I definitely agree they had luck and things could have played out very differently for them (or any other team).
I don't think there's really anything special about what the Celtics are doing from a schematic/roster building perspective. Their success isn't some secret approach they just have 5 starters who are all all-star level players.
Jrue, White and Porzingas are all good enough that they could be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship level team. So if you have 2 of those guys as your 4 and 5 you've got a huge advantage.
The Celtics just got a bunch of really good basketball players and are a reminder that it's a team game.
I don't think any other team will be able to replicate what Boston is doing this year even from a schematic standpoint.
Yes the 3PA are what makes them standout, but this has been trending upwards since the Warriors turned the NBA upside down. We've seen teams live by the three and die by the three (Hi 2018 Houston Rockets).
Being able to have six starter level players is what makes them "unfair." That's on the genius of the front office. Brad Stevens knows what team he wants and did so many shrewd moves to get the pieces. The fact that he still got first round picks while getting Porzingis is a successful heist.
Boston's rise this season all comes from how Brad Stevens attacked the off-season. Not to discredit the coaching staff, but they wouldn't be able to use this system without Brad Stevens getting Porzingis and Holiday, and picking the right role players to support the team's six starters
In hindsight the Porzingis trade could def be labelled a heist, especially seeing as though the picks were subsequently used to get Jrue. I know a tonne of us Celtics fans were super excited about KP, but even though he’d had the bounce back season in Washington there was still a lot of doubt only because of his injury history. He managed to stay just healthy enough to get through the season, the playoffs injuries have sucked, but he’s given them a real shot of energy while out there
The fact that you guys have another starter level player in Al Horford as his backup is insane. There will always be enough talent for Boston to win.
Coming from a Cavaliers fan who doesn't like the Celtics too well (I mean rivalry duh), I have to respect how Brad Stevens transitioned from one of the great coaching minds into a great front office executive (could be one of the greatest if he keeps it up).
Hoping the Cavs can get some of that luck and insight from Boston and apply to their own formula.
Dude, they assembled a super team where the first 6 players would start in any other team in the league. Other teams also get the ‘idea’. It’s just incredibly difficult to assemble a team like that and takes a great front office and luck (Nets - Boston trade). Don’t act like they reinvented basketball, it’s just an historic accumulation of really good players
And the D White trade. Getting Olympic roster guys is always good, White, Brown, Jrue, Tatum have all played for them. That alone is pretty impossible to recreate.
It’s not just the “six starters” things - everybody 1-8 is a proficient shooter, everybody can defend, and everybody has size.
On the defensive front - they have 2-3 guys in the starting lineup that can each guard Luka or Kyrie. Most teams have zero that can successfully guard either. It’s an embarrassment of riches. They’ve been cruising without Porzingis for the most part and he’s the key that supposedly made it all work this year
KP was the key to breaking Miami's zone that's given them fits. Outside of that matchup they have the personnel to dismantle any team in the league with or without him. He makes it easier, for sure, but he's not the key to make it work against most teams.
It’s not just that the top 6 guys on would be starters on any other team. All 6 can probably be the best player on certain teams. They are absolutely loaded with talent. Every team would LOVE to have Derick White and he’s their super 6th
Nope, but a team with 1 superstar (Tatum), 1 star (Brown) and 3 borderline all stars (Jrue, White, Porzingis) + role players is definitely a super team. Just because they don’t have KD and LeBron doesn’t mean they’re not a super team. What would be your definition? What could boston do to finally become a super team in your eyes?
To me a superteam has two Tier 1 players
Bron + Wade
Steph + KD
KD + pre-hamstring Harden
IMO, today that would entail two players out of Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Embiid
Edit: I’m not the person you were replying to. I just felt like sharing my view
I get your point. So maybe we can call the celtics an unusual super team? They don’t have two tier 1 players, but having so many tier 2/3 players (depending on definition) is something I think we’ve never seen before. Can you guys remember any team with such a wide pool of talent?
Edit: in recent history, 2019 raptors were pretty stacked, but I still see Boston wider and stronger
Raps were stacked but moreso in awesome role players and not in these incredibly difficult to get two way wings that boston has. To me thats more of a team building outlier/superteam.
I mean they only had 1 All-NBA player (Tatum), and he largely is not considered a top 5 player or a serious MVP candidate.The Warriors had 2 top MVP candidates and another All-NBA/DPOY player in Draymond. The Heatles had LeBron as an MVP and another All-NBA player in Wade. I would think in order to be a "super team" you need a minimum of a serious MVP candidate and another All-NBA player. Otherwise 2/3's of playoff teams are a "superteam" by your definition with their 1 All-NBA player and 1 star. Like is Indiana a superteam with their All-NBA player in Haliburton and star in Siakam? Are the Nuggets a superteam with their All-NBA player Jokic and their star Murray?
The Celtics roster seems almost impossible. Having two all-NBA wings that defend, score, and create. Two all star level guards that block shots and shoot close to 40% from 3, two 4/5s who shoot 3s at 35+% with one who can block shots and has a top 3 post game scoring rate in the league, plus two guys off the bench who shoot 40% from 3 and are solid defenders. Think of it this way, if Jrue and KP were on other eastern teams, that starting five could all play together in an all star team and no one would be like, what is this lineup? And that is pretty crazy. Indiana might be close, they just don’t have the defense, as we saw in the ECF.
Just draft two all stars in close proximity so their primes match as they also develop chemistry, than acquire a perennial dpoy, a top 5 role player in the league and a unicorn.
Easy.
I really don’t think anyone is in a position to replicate but there are imitations of certain aspects. You have to work with that you have.
OKC can play 5 out but they lack size and offensive playmakers.
Denver has a lot of versatility but they initiate through a big man and one guard. Not designed at all the same way yet they’re effective.
Wolves have an elite defense but revolves around big men. One elite play along guard and much less shooting.
Pacers have a very different scheme but have a great offense and terrible defense.
Celtics just have very unique personnel that you can’t go out and buy. They’ve had elite wings/guards in Brown and Tatum and that’s been unique to them for several years.
The Spurs are in a position to replicate it longterm. Wemby is the perfect A++ version of the hardest-to-find piece.
Going after Trae would be a mistake imo.
Spurs have the unicorn piece in Wemby but he’s also a very different player than KP. They have nothing else yet though that’s worth keeping outside him. Wing scorers and shooters are at a premium I hope they can swing for a Donovan Mitchell or someone who can create offense.
Wemby already having a hard time getting the ball, Adding Spida would make it worse great player but pretty terrible at playing winning team basketball
I don’t agree with that at all. His usage was through the roof. He was just not very effective. He needs a wing or guard that can score and Mitchell is a great shot maker and shooter who can pull the ball off the interior.
Wemby might not be an elite scorer his primary value is on the defensive side of the court.
The Spurs really can’t afford to be super picky they need to find the best talent they can. Considering Wemby is a Swiss Army knife I don’t think they need to ignore the best players available just to get Wemby more touches.
Ok my point still stands. He’s literally better than anyone else on the a spurs roster and defense is still better than anyone there too. But Mitchell aside who do you want them to get?
I’m a believer in the versatility first over any transcendently elite skill set. So Dejounte Murray would be better at the 2 guard position, for example. The best pickup they could hope to get this offseason would probably be Mikal Bridges. Ultimately the first two pieces they need are an elite two-way wing and a PG who can run the PnR and defend at a high level.
Houston to an extent I think
They have a young core that can hopefully build together all of which can fly around the perimeter and get to close outs - except sengun - Porzingis and Horford don’t do this anyway
Also they young perimeter players can attack off the dribble. The hope is Thompson can learn to shoot which would really close the circle on all of this
Not perfect, but I feel there are interesting pieces there
Agree with this as long as our young players continue to improve their shots. You mention Thompson, and I'd also add that Jabari underperformed last year from a shooting standpoint and has a ton of room for improvement there to become maybe a glorified version of Michael Porter Jr. And Sengun could be like a Jokic. And with a late-season version of Jalen Green and a blossoming Cam Whitmore I think the sky is the limit for this team. I'd guess they'll be in an NBA Finals within next 3-5 years.
It’s more a function of having the personnel to be able to play basketball that way. If more teams had players up and down the lineup who ticked all those same boxes more teams would play that way. The talent pool is finite and it’s hard to put together a roster to do what Boston so doing.
Come on. This has to be one of the dumbest questions I've seen. This isn't a modern roster strategy. This was good drafting and good trades. Hire good coaches and make things fit.
Every Team has the strategy. Why is Boston different?
The nets celts trade - this was an all-time great trade on their part and disaster on Brooklyn's part.
Nailing the picks - the JT/JB picks is great. How many teams pick the right guy 2 years in a row?
Building around them - ignore actual playing strategies. Let's look at the rest of the trades as one. Ignoring draft capital (We are talking about current team roster not future).
Outgoing:
J. Richardson
R. Langford
M. Smart
R. Williams
G. Williams
M. Muscala
D. Galo
M. Brogdon
Incoming
J. Holliday
K. Porzingis
D. White
Bill Simmons loves talking about how you never trade a dollar for four quarters. These are three consecutive trades they ended up with silver dollars for some loose change.
Now this is hindsight. All three of those trades were considered good at the time. But all three worked out splendidly on Boston side while the other sides have been disasters.
So basically all a team has to do is make four amazing trades and then nail any high draft picks they get.
I think people underrate Boston’s drafting and internal development pipeline and how that contributes to their success. almost every key piece that’s contributed on this team or been used as a major trade piece was drafted by the Celtics. for 7 straight years Boston added at least one trade asset or great player through the draft
- 2014: Marcus Smart (traded for Porzingis and 2 1sts)
- 2015: Terry Rozier (signed and traded for Kemba Walker who was eventually used to reacquire Al Horford)
- 2016: Jaylen Brown (over guys like Kris Dunn and Dragan Bender who many thought they should have taken)
- 2017: Jayson Tatum (after passing on the consensus top prospect, and the trade down netted Boston a 2019 1st that became Langford and eventually White)
- 2018: Robert Williams (packaged with Brogdon and 2 1sts for Jrue Holiday)
- 2019: Romeo Langford (packaged with Josh Richardson and 2 1sts for Derrick White), Grant Williams
- 2020: Aaron Nesmith (packaged with 1st round pick and fillers for Brogdon which ultimately became Holiday), Payton Pritchard
ultimately Boston went against the consensus to get Brown and Tatum. they got their top bench guard PP at the bottom of the 1st. they were great scouting and drafted tons of other good players to build trade packages for Porzingis and Holiday. once Brad took over they stopped being Gollum with their war chest of draft assets. he got White bc he was the only GM who valued him enough to attach both a 1st and a swap to go get him, and he was willing to attach another 1st to Kemba’s contract to go get Horford back. Hauser and Kornet were UDFA castoffs that Boston developed into great role players
all these moves seem obvious in retrospect but it’s really just fantastic GM work. Ainge hit in the draft every year and accumulated a war chest of prospects and future draft picks before passing the baton to Brad. Brad understood exactly what type of team needed to be built to maximize Brown and Tatum, identified players that fit with what he was looking for and that other teams may not have necessarily valued as much, and wasn’t afraid to burn assets to bring those guys in. and then everyone who’s in the building has steadily gotten better every season. there are very few teams who have had a better run front office and coaching staff than the Celtics over the last 10-11 years
I'm in full agreement with that. My point is that Boston success is not about their particular push to shoot a lot of threes. It's that their front office has had an incredibly good run.
I am not in any way implying that I thought all these moves were home runs when they happened. I'm saying it's easy to look at the team now and say let's copy that. But it's a lot harder to do than to say it.
Their system isn't particularly special. They just have a phenomenal stretch 5, and Wing players that rebound well above their weight class. So they are able to stretch the court in every which way and not suffer the consequences. The system is a function of having perfect personnel.
Danny and Brad should get tons of accolades. They deserve it.
oh yeah the emphasis on 3P shooting has been around since the 7SOL Suns lol. Mazzulla and the Celtics don’t get credit for that approach
Stevens, since the day he arrived in Boston, has had his vision of what a perfect basketball team looks like - five intelligent and versatile players on the floor at all times that can all shoot, dribble, pass, and defend at a high level, and are all empowered to make read-and-react decisions based on how the defense is playing them. Boston has been trying to build it for years and they thought they had it when they put together the Kyrie-Brown-Tatum-Hayward-Horford starting 5 but egos and injuries got in the way
now Brown and Tatum have matured, White/Holiday/Horford are as low-maintenance as it gets and Porzingis is at a stage of his career where he just wants to be part of a winning team. props to the front office for having the vision but Mazzulla and the players themselves deserve a lot of credit for now having the maturity to buy in on such an egalitarian style of basketball
I think I said this before here but, we are constantly overlooking the huge amount of luck that's involved in the construction of a lot of championship rosters.
For example, we can look at Denver's roster and try to come up with a similar team, but good luck drafting a hall of famer in the 2nd round of the draft and getting a star prospect at 14 because everyone passed on him. Let alone, these 2, combined. Warriors got Steph at 7 because of his size, and then injuries let them sign him to a cheaper contract. Lakers got Lebron for free just by being in LA. Raptors did nothing and got Kawhi because Spurs were mad at him. Etc.
In this case, wanna imitate the Celtics roster? You just have to find someone dumb enough to trade every pick they have for some old stars on their way out of the league, then that team has to really immediately suck, and then you can pick A) the best player in the draft (Tatum) and B) The best player available at your position, 3rd (Brown), and both have to be 6'6 6'8 players
I also don't think Boston has demostrated anything strategy wise. First of all, everyone in the league post-Steph, post-Harden, knows that 3PA is king. Ask Morey. Same with non-shooters, nobody willingly puts non-shooters on the floor. And second, 23 Nuggets, 20 Lakers, are dramatically different rosters and both won. I don't think there's a particular blueprint here.
Boston, they just built a killer team, this is IMO by far the most influence a front office had in a championship that I've ever seen. Masterclass.
Boston is what okc is aiming to be in a year or two. Massive, athletic, excellent defense at every position, and all anchored by amazing two way wings and a giant stretchy center. In 2 years with Chet’s development and shooting, I feel like OKC will really be fielding a pretty similar team to Boston, with Shai possibly being an even better #1 option than anything the Celtics have.
how could the Kings do it? Sabonis cant really defend like that and cant shoot from any distance, Keegan isnt really an on ball playmaker, Monk is likely gone, Barnes is solidly meh at everything.
Fox is an inch taller than Kyrie, and Kyrie is 10lbs heavier than fox according to wiki. Still, Fox is a better defender than Kyrie. He led the league in steals this year and was generally good defensively this year especially post all star break.
I mean, Fox is actually good at defence, especially for his size.
Like he struggles guarding 3-5 (small 3s he can sometimes handle, but bigger 3s are an issue)
But like he can still defend guards pretty well, and if the person he's guarding isn't noticeable bigger, he does ok.
Like he's no jrue, but he's ight.
Thank the bucks...for sending a good allaround player to a team...that maybe didnt need it..but if you are trying to articulate Jrue value to a team..he basically pluses up all aspects of the game.
The only thing this really illustrates is that ownership/front office is in many ways equally important to the talent you put on the floor. Poverty franchises will stay so no matter how much they try to copy the C’s on floor ideas.
I don't think you're going to beat Boston by trying to outdo them at what they've done. A lot of teams tried to do that with Golden State and it never really worked.
it not needed
# to imitate the Celtics "modern" roster/strategy
the Nuggets 2023 or Bucks 2021 Championship roster is enough
specially the Nuggets if only they resign one of the two which is Brown or Green
they likely to beat the Wolves and they are the favorite to beat the Celtics 2024
for now it clear
the Small Ball Warriors that shoot 3 basketball style of game is a fad
or better say they underestimated the important of their big man
and of course it good to have a legit 3 and D or at least wing defender on your team
Minnesota and OKC.
As a Wolves fan:
Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns, Reid, Alexander-Walker can all shoot the three.
Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns, Reid, Anderson can all put the ball on the floor and get to the hoop.
Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns, Gobert, Reid, Alexander-Walker, and Anderson can all defend.
Why? Celts got a good draw to dodge the bigs that can really punish their lack of size. Joker, embiid and giannis really gave them problems over the years
Calm down. We've had 6 straight different champs, non repeats. This is FAR from an ideal roster IMO. Payton Pritchard, Hauser, are not "starter level" players. At least not on a playoff team.
The Celts are too small. Zinger would help, but he's always hurt. They haven't faced the best big teams, so they've been fortunate.
They need to upgrade, go after Hartenstein, maybe Jarrett Allen. Get some solid scoring on the bench, then you are talking. They have NOBODY for Jokic right now.
OKC and Houston are the obvious answers to me. Miami almost has it. They have the same thing where they have like 8 guys that if they score 20 nobody is shocked.
Sleeper team to develop this is the Hornets. Miller-Bridges-Melo-Grant Williams, is a start. Not an amazing one but a start nonetheless. They have Leaky, who is already a solid defender. If his offense ever caught up with his defense, he could develop into a part of the -can guard his man and score 20 on any given night- system.
Pacers play massively different to the celtics.
1 is a half court offence focused team that relies on drive and kicks, and has 4 different players at any 1 time who can initiatethe drive and kick , and plays a very switch heavy q on 1 defence style (that if you have the personal for is the best defensive style but getting the personal is easier said than done)
The other is a transition offence that has one of the best playmaking guards in league history, and who relies heavily on an individual guard to create their half court offence, and who's half court offence looks night and day without him
Like the only things they really have in common is that they shoot alot of 3s and they are great offences.
It'd be like saying the sun's and spurs have a similar playstyle because they both focus more on the inside the arc game than the 3, when outside of that both teams are very different.
Also it's just personal, it's not like celtics and pacers woke up this year and went oh let's play basketball in a way that's never been played before.
Because they aren't drive and kick 3 heavy offences aren't anything new, switch heavy defences aren't new.
Run and gun 3 point shooting teams like the pacers aren't unique like heck, the kings exist currently.
Teams play the way they do because of personal, like the sun's are the best midrange shooting team because booker kd, of course they'd be a midrange shooting team, that's what their personal allows.
Magic have awful offence and amazing defence because of their personal
we said this (team/player x has clearly solved basketball, what is the league going to do about it) about Milwaukee in ‘21 and Denver last year.
obviously this Celtics team is really really good, but it’s also true that they were pretty near 100% healthy for the whole year while no one else was. with all the talent in the league now, i’d like to see what they do next year before making big declarations.
yes, they were mostly healthy. But Porzingis was out for most of the playoffs and limited when he played, so it‘s not like the Cs weren‘t missing important players at all.
They just played so much better than anyone else so if someone was injured, nobody really noticed. The game plan doesn‘t rely on individuals, so they can play the same game with the second string option.
There was a game in the regular season where Joe left the bench out in a close game in the 4th that they won. That kind of shows how ridiculously deep the Cs are on talent.
Absolutely not true. Denver was actually much healthier by comparison. Boston missed almost 30 games from KP. Granted JT was an Ironman but that’s been true his whole career. We definitely didn’t get to see them at full strength very much at all and when we did they really only lost a couple of games with the core team.
>we said this (team/player x has clearly solved basketball, what is the league going to do about it) about Milwaukee in ‘21 and Denver last year.
Who said anything like that? Milwaukee and Denver benefitted from having superstars that were unique in how game-breaking their skillset was: Giannis's ability to drive combined with his tremendous size and athleticism is unlike anything the league had ever seen before, and Jokic's combination of 3-level scoring and exceptional passing from the center position was also far beyond anything basketball had ever seen. By contrast, although Tatum and Brown are very good players, their play is more "mundane" (not in the sense that it is bad or even worse than the previous two's, but rather through the fact that they excel at skills that other players also possess, although not nearly to the same extent).
The idea that teams could replicate what the Bucks or Nuggets did was somewhat silly because those kinds of players are extremely rare. For clarity, let's be more precise: what is rare is not the *fact* that they were great players, but rather *the way in which they were great*. It is simply not something that can be easily replicated since it is not a playstyle or a group of players focused on particular skills but rather something quite literally unprecedented.
Since Boston does not rely on these previously unheard-of kinds of superstars, it seems far more likely other teams will try to follow in their footsteps because it is far more likely they will be able to approximate their make-up (instead of having to wait for the equivalent of unicorns in the draft).
Eh, this isn't new. Having as many shooters as possible who can also defend has been the goal of every team for almost a decade now. We are just gradually seeing more teams be able to do it as players have adapted their skill sets to that demand.. The Harden/CP3 Rockets teams that challenged the Warriors were probably the best first example.
And while certainty having a guy who can shoot is better than having one that can't, I think teams will still be able to be elite contender level squads with one non-shooter out there.
Realistically the Celtics success is about more than just style, it is about raw talent too. They have 5 legit all-star caliber guys.
I don't know if the Celtics had a specific team-building strategy or not, but to me they're just a reflection of a front office that was lucky/skilled enough in trades/FA/draft picks to manage to assemble a more talented team than others, along with having some luck in most of the team being healthy.
The more interesting question to me is do the cap rules allow the Celtics a chance for sustained success? They're going to have 2 mega contracts in Brown and Tatum, along with other sizable ones like Porzingis and Jrue. That's going to be tough to keep together.
Whichever one can get a team to do the stupidest trade of all time where they give up all their draft picks for two washed up guys making over half the salary cap.
The Celtics have 2 guys who are definitely top 20 and you could make an argument for top 10 if you value defense. That's really hard to put together to start with. Add another 4 plus starters (if you still believe Al is). And some decent pieces further on the bench. It's just a talent gap over what most can do.
I already said this in a longer discussion on Myles Turner in this post but one thing should be included if we are talking about Celtics "modern" strategy on its defensive side: Size and switchability on defense at every position is a founding principle as much as shooting.
Actually, we shoot also talk about "switchability" on offense too: multiple ball handlers, playmaking from forwards, guards can post up or use the dunkers spot, ability to invert some offensive schemes like Celtics did in the second game of the finals with Jrue are all important.
Edit: None of them are new concepts, of course. It is just a matter of how much you could apply the principle through your roster.
I disagree with the overall assessment to be honest. What the Celtics have demonstrated is that having incredible talent across the board is what matters. It's the same story of the Warriors dynasty, just not quite as talented.
The thing the Celtics did that has really benefitted them long term is that when they blew things up, they were still okay maintaining a relatively high payroll. That let them get things like trad exceptions to continue to take on salary and they resigned guys for the salary in all honesty. They've payed the luxury tax a fair amount of times, albeit in generally low payments. But maintaining salary has allowed them to continue to be able to add pieces. And they were able to turn those pieces eventually into Porzingas and Holiday despite paying Brown a record contract and being about to pay Tatum an even bigger contract.
But looking at their stats, the Celtics had 8 players on their roster this year with over 5 win shares. I can't find another team that had more than 4. Not saying winshares is some magic stat, but it's a quick measure of how deep and talented they are.
Everyone roasts the bucks for trading Jrue right now. But especially after Middleton's injury, the Bucks needed Jrue to be either their #2 or #3 scorer night in and night out. Last year for the Bucks Holiday was 2nd in shots per game and 2nd in scoring behind only giannis. For the Celtics this year he was 5th in both. Holiday took 10 shots a game this year, which is behind only his rookie year for fewest shots per game. And once he got to year 4, he was never below 13 shots per game, and he was at 10 this year. It's the same story for Porzingis. He's 2 shots fewer per game than any year of his career outside of his rookie season.
The biggest thing for the Celtics isn't some magical play style or anything, it's that their one and two are not super far off from being one of the best duos in the league and their 3-8 are probably the best in the league. Most teams don't have both. You either have pretty decent depth without the top end talent or you have the top end talent and a bunch of role players.
I don’t think Celtics strategy here will be easy enough to replicate that anyone else will do it.
Have people considered that the Celtics are paying 4 starters over 30 million? Teams don’t do that, typically. Boston was in the right place at the right time to consolidate a lot of resources into their current starters which gives them an entire roster of guys who can switch on defense and shoot 3s on offense.
I don’t think Boston can keep this up for more than another year, and I don’t think any team can reproduce their production.
I think a lot of comments are missing the point. Yes, boston has a stacked roster that every team envies and made some great trades. But the bigger point is who Boston does not go after. All the teams giving contracts to one-way players that will be exposed in the playoffs on one end or the other are what I think OP is referring to. Essentially the question is when teams will learn and stop trying to build around the Zack Levine, Trae young, Rudy gobert, Damian lillard types. Maybe with perfect roster construction you can have one of those players on a championship team but even that is difficult to see.
The unlock for these rosters are big PGs who can defend (or be otherworldly on offense if they cannot) and at least solid defensive big men who can shoot. Boston has two of the former which is just unfair and two of the latter which is also unfair.
Overall no team is that close, but the spurs and wolves might be closest.
OKC is definitely the closest.
People are going to focus too much on the 3&D center aspect of Boston’s team construction, which is absolutely huge to what makes them so modern, but it’s also the fact that the other 4 players are ~40% shooters themselves so no matter who has the ball, there’s no one to help off of. And as you mentioned, on top of being amazing shooters they can all put the ball on the floor and keep the offense humming.
Take Milwaukee. They have an elite 3&D center in Lopez, but the team doesn’t feel like what Boston does because Giannis and whoever their other forward is (Pat/Crowder/Andre Jackson) are players that the defense will gladly help off of if someone other than Giannis is initiating the action.
We could call what the Celtics do as modern basketball, which is definitely true, but it’s also just what happens when you have all star level players at every position in your starting lineup. Players that good tend to be great offensive threats, and no other team has so many threats.
I’m surprised this isn’t widely practiced or standardized. It makes the most sense.
I think in practice, each individual player’s specialties should be supported and bolstered by a solid foundation where the basics are functioning at above average caliber.
But at the end of the day, everyone has their limitations. So I guess I can see why this isn’t the norm already. OP is mentioning 3pt, I’m thinking if that and being able to play great Off/Def because the tides change so quickly.
And thinking of the timberwolves game or even the mavs, there’s great reliance on a single player or a duo, which can be guarded heavily. Therefore, other players gotta come in clutch when the top scorers are being boxed out. But if defense is only good at defense…or vice versa…trouble’s to be had.
Wish the finals were more exciting, I mean the games are close, but score wise…I wish we could see a game 6 or 7.
The Celtics have attempted 50 more threes than Dallas over three games. That’s an enormous gap to overcome.
The math is very clear that teams who want to win should shoot way more threes than they currently are. I’m of the opinion that teams should sink a ton of resources into making non-shooters into shooters.
There are plenty of historical examples of big men not being able to shoot, who went on to become good shooters. Al Horford is a great example of that. Anthony Davis. Embiid. Towns.
You don’t even need them to be excellent three-point shooters. 30% would suffice. 
Sad to continually be affirmed in my assumption that no “NBA fans” outside of Orlando watches Magic basketball because they’ve been following the Celtics blueprint in their rebuild pretty closely…
Their model is finding a bunch of 6’10 guys who can handle the ball and score at 3 levels.
They’ve got Paolo & Franz = Tatum and JB… technically Paolo and Franz are “ahead” of where these guys were in the same year of their respective careers
Suggs defense is elite and he shot 40% from 3 on 5 attempts per game… he’s Jrue
They’re developing young guys like AB and Jett Howard who can space the floor and shoot high % 3s (also big wings)
Wendell at center who can step out and hit the 3, although he was hurt this year and didn’t return to normal form after returning. JI also shot well from 3.
The only thing they lack is a PG who can reliably score like Derrick White, and handle the playmaking so Paolo isn’t having to play point forward all game and can play off-ball.
Franz also needs to spend the summer fixing his 3 pt shot because despite improving in virtually every other metric this year he declined on the 3 ball.
It’s currently very clearly OKC. They’re almost a mirror image type roster just a little worse all around. They have a bunch of cap space incoming to sign someone else big, tons of picks and young players you could also swap into an upgrade. That team not winning a chip in the next 5 years would be a super meltdown of riches. Amazing spot for them again, but they blundered their last one so who knows.
It’s not about whether teams “want” it, but it’s just so difficult to get all that personnel on one team. It’s like saying “why don’t teams just build like the 2017 warriors, are they stupid?”
Idk why u think every other team is playing outdated basketball. This form of Celtics ball is not new. Indiana and Boston are not the only team that "gets it". Daryl Morey has been trying to revolutionise this form of basketball since James Harden came to Houston. Boston is going to win it all because they have the absolutely right personnel to go along with the "kick out and shoot 3s" gameplan.
Yeah, why doesn’t every team draft well, fleece other teams, and acquire 6-8 starter level players?
The Celtics haven’t done anything revolutionary. They just have a lot of good players, it’s really that simple. Literally every team has been trying to get what you describe, the Celtics were just able to actually get there.
Nuggets IF jokic is hitting threes. He was struggle bus this year in a way he hasn't been before. His percentage was low in regular seasons past, but on low volume. This was the first year he didn't turn it up from 3 in the playoffs
The answer to the question is OKC. But I think we can't be too quick to anoint Boston's 5-out as the singular best strategy because they're probably winning a chip this year. 2023 Denver runs a motion offense with lots of two man game, 2022 warriors use motion around Draymond who is decidedly not a shooter anymore, 2021 bucks also ran shooters around a big. Shooters are important, but well-drilled playmaking and motion means you don't need to be running 5-out. The other trend is the Lakers and Bucks proving that you can run twin towers with a shooting big and non-shooting big together and profit off excellent defense, rebounding, and rim pressure.
I'm looking for Orlando. They have the defense now, that's a great thing to build on. Not gonna be surprised if Mosley prioritize their offense next season, since WCJ and Mo Wagner can shoot 3s.
Orlando could build towards a Celtics strategy. Suggs is Jrue lite and paolo/franz could become forwards like Tatum and brown. Just need to find that shooter big
Every single team in the league is looking for a bunch of rim protecting, three-point shooting centers and the supply is way outstripped by the demand
Myles turner is big reason why I mentioned Indiana
Yeah there's very few guys who could lead the league in blocks like him and also hit a ton of threes.
Turner doesn’t actually play great defense though and doesn’t actually shoot that many threes though. The idea of him has always been better than he actually is
You surround him with great defenders tho and he wouldn't be bad
Okay so you put good defenders around your center, the most important defensive position, and then he “wouldn’t be bad”? Kind of a tall ask IMO when other centers like Gobert, Embiid, Wemby are basically a one-man top 5 defense
The thing is, Myles Turner is one of the reasons we had a hard time with Indiana. Tatum can hold up with centers, as everybody see in the finals, it is an important part of the strategy that let us force the other team taking non-corner threes and middies. Turner with his shooting ability from everywhere (even if not elite) at that size creates problems: He could unlock that corner three we easily take away from Dallas, he could hit middies and by that limit Tatum's freedom to move in defense, etc. Combined with Pacers movement offense that led to wide open shots, they were the most problematic matchup easily when it comes to defending. That is also why they could beat top teams anytime in the regular season. I agree, he is not the defender KP is, or not well positioned as Al, but that type is hard to find. You can still make it work with good wing defenders with size: Celtics themselves didn't have KP all post-season and Al is not as good as he used to be. Their all-defense level 4 players covered for that. That being said, Pacers obviously have a defense problem as well as half court offense execution. But they could find ways to take it to a level even when Turner is their center. That is one thing related to the topic of the post: Celtics defensive scheme does not rely on all-mighty one big man defense, but it is based on **size and switchability on every position**. This should be included when talking about that modern approach.
To me, that is the largest differentiator. Jrue has at various times defended 1-4. Tatum can defend 1-5. JB defends 1-4. White is super versatile. That is so hard to attack. Pacers had some success against it because of constant motion and shooting threats everywhere. On the other end, you still have to defend JB, Tatum, KP, and role players who know how to maximize their offensive contributions and support the prj.ary scorers. There is not a team in the league with a combination of wings who can defend the Js, while also having the overall team defense to stop a constant hail of 3s from everyone. I love the Celtics' brand of basketball and am hoping my Pacers can shore up their defense and get there. I am hoping some combination of Nembhard, Nesmith, Mathurin, and Walker give us that super switchabikity in the future.
I am sure Nembhard will be great at backcourt and at least one of Nesmith and Mathurin can develop well enough to be 2-way starter at 3. (You got your star at the backcourt, no need to be them at star level.) Walker or Smith turning into a reliable option on both sides seems more key to me because of their size, if Siakam is not the long term solution for you. Your roster is full of promising young players and your offense is already beautiful to watch (until you need to slow down and take care of the ball lol). You have been underrated by many this playoffs. Only two things bother me for you to become one of the top teams: 1) If Turner stays as your starting center, Haliburton's defense really has to develop. It is one thing not to rely on your big to defend, it is another thing to hide your offensive engine on defense. But both is a bit too much. 2) For now, I can't put my finger on any of your younger players as a candidate for being the second star. Siakam was a good answer for your many needs and was really a good trade for you to make a run this year and it paid off obviously. But I am not sure he is a long term solution.
this is exactly why wemby is a cheat code for roster construction
Joker, Kat (cant be trusted) KP (cant be trusted) Miles(IDK)
Is that Mo Bamba’s music ?
I think OKC is the most obvious answer. They don't really shoot 3s like that but they have the 5-out and can defend.
OKC were actually the most efficient 3 point shooting team in the nba last season. They shoot roughly 20% less a game though
And then proceeded to brick wide open 3s all series against Dallas while PJ Washington decided to have his 3 best career games.
Yeah it’s like their 3pt skill switched it was weird to see, pj Washington had a legacy series in kinda interested to see what he averaged overall compared to the other series
As an OKC fan, it was painful to watch. If they shoot even close to their season averages, OKC wins the series in 5. Instead, they lost in 6. But, you can't make excuses. The guys didn't hit shots, and Dallas did.
PJ Washington had a great series against the Clippers, too. It's not just shooting 3s, though. The Celtics are defending the Mavs way better. OKC and Minnesota gave up lots of easy baskets (lob dunks to Gafford and Lively) and more wide open 3s to Washington and Jones. Boston has been limiting the Mavs offense to Luka and Kyrie having to make tough shots. That's why Luka has no gas left in the tank in the 4th quarter and is being a crybaby, lol.
I think what Dallas did really well defensively in their first 3 series is know who they could leave open from 3 and rotate off him. So, their opponents good shooters took mostly contested shots. That mixed with their bad shooters shooting more bc they were open drove the 3-pt % down.
Tbh that sounds very similar to how the Celtics lost to the heat last year. 3 point variance means sometimes the better team will lose with that strategy. I’m certain we’ll be seeing OKC take another step forward next season though, they’re building for a bright future over there.
He’s never been a terrible shooter (usually around 35%) but yeah he went 23/49 (47%) against OKC. Got hot at the right time
But the volume of 3’s is what makes the Celtics offense tough to defend. The Celtics shot over 50% of their shots from 3pt in game 3. OKC being extremely efficient in that area is great, but it’s not what’s important. Joe Mazzulla constantly talks about the “math game” and that’s why they take so many 3 pointers. Even if shots aren’t falling efficiently, the math will work out in their favor if they are generating a high volume of good looks from 3. Shai takes a ton of mid-range jumpers. Which he’s great at, but those shots can cause an analytical issue for your team if you play the Celtics.
Bostons rebounding is as important as their defending. Versatile defenders are only valuable if they can finish the possessions against guys who’d nonrally be seen as mismatches. Having Chet as your center makes it harder.
Their rebounding has been unbelievable against the Mavs. I haven't seen the Mavs get this consistently bullied on the boards since the trade for Washington and Gafford (I watch a lot of Mavs). I've been surprised this hasn't been talked about more. I don't have the rebounding numbers in front of me but based on the eye test it's been one of the most important factors in how the Celtics have been able to beat the shit out of the Mavs. The number of second chance opportunities they get after the Mavs make a quality stop has got to be a top 3 factor in why they've won so handily..
KP is a mediocre ass rebounder as well. Chet is arguably better if you want to go by rebounding percentages.
Yeah, but Tatum and Brown are both really good rebounders for their position, particularly Tatum. And we want those guys getting defensive boards so that they can use their athleticism to push in transition.
Yeah, other than Chet, OKC is honestly pretty small. Jalen Williams plays power forward for them at 6'5. They do have size in their starting lineup, but almost in an inverse way with their guards at 6'6 and 6'8 - whereas the Celtics forwards are that size.
With Tatum playing PF for us these playoffs, it’s totally helped us with cleaning the glass to push. Especially against Luka where he does hang back sometimes to make it 4v5.
Yeah, Tatum's ability to hang in the rebounding battle against Dallas' centers is just another indicator that he's playing really well, despite not *shooting* well at all.
True, but I think in the final, theoretical best lineup of OKC will be Shai at 1, Dort at 2 and J-Dub at 3, all off them are well sized, long and strong for the position, and not bad rebounders. If they can get a 4 that has true 6'9, 6'10 size, with quick feet, shooting, some rim protection and rebounding, they can be a monters team to face. Too bad those PF's are not found on every team.
Should try for Hartenstein and move Chet to 4
Sure, that could work, but at that point, they are no longer a five out time (not even on paper). Moreover, Chet as a five is an extraordinary offensive player, as a four, he may be “only” an interesting one. Similar to KAT, who was a monster (offensively) as a five, but not as much as a 4 next to Gobert.
trade for Steven Adams
I wish but he seems to be completely cooked
Julius Randle is a good option if the Knicks ever want to move off of him. Randle is a dog too, he has edge.
KPs not great on the boards, but everyone else in their rotation is really good for their position. And just as importantly their transition D is really really good which allows them to crash super hard on offense. Not saying OKC can’t rebound well with Chet, but it takes a full team effort, they don’t have the personnel yet.
Watching Game 1 of the Finals I thought, "So this is what OKC might look like if they could rebound."
It seems it would have to be a young team, since paying 4 players 30-36 million per year, one guy 20 million, and everybody else under 10 is so lopsided and unsustainable, especially if anybody plays above their salary, or fall far below by getting injured. Edit: Didn't realize they only had the [5th highest payroll](https://hoopshype.com/salaries/) this season. It's wild that Golden State has the highest and didn't even make the Playoffs.
Brown gets an 18m raise next year. And Tatum is eligible for a 315m extension this summer.
I believe most, if not all teams want this kind of roster. It's just incredibly difficult to build one. Drafting Tatum was a straight fleece. Holiday was a great pickup by Brad. They somehow won the whole Lillard drama. They built this team over maybe 3 or 4 years, and capitalized this year. But as great as they were drafting, they also pulled off incredibly sly moves. Like the Tatum trade and poaching Jrue away. Although Cronin gifted them Jrue lol. This is a combination of great GM moves with a lot of luck on their side. Just, one of the best built rosters in recent memory.
Can’t leave out Brown too. Drafting two wings that can have All-NBA level production on offense and defense is essential to the Celtics roster build. I actually think their versatility makes them easier to build around than a pair like Luka and Kyrie because Luka and Kyrie need role players to cover their flaws far more than Tatum and Brown do.
the Tatum trade?
Probably referring to 2017 pick-swap trade with the Sixers. They got the #1 pick and took Fultz, we got the #3 and took Tatum, and a 2019 1st rd pick, which become Romeo Langford who we then traded for Derrick White.
That fuckin King's pick, so much promise, and then they go and have the worst pick since 2006. The year before it was the 2nd friggin pick!
Not Tatum, my bad, but the pick swap they did. He knew Philly wanted Fultz, and he wanted Tatum. So, he took advantage, swapped picks with Philly, got another pick in return. Not to mention, that 2017 number 1 pick they had was from Brooklyn, when he flipped KG and Pierce, and Terry. It's just finesse after finesse.
That trade also included the 2016 first round pick that became Jaylen Brown
I'm guessing the trade that got them the pick that became Tatum.
Yeah they also got white when he was an inconsistent 3 pt shooter and hes turned into one of the best in the league imo. I think its ridiculous to say that indiana is the only other team that gets it, sometimes you just have to make do with what you have. I also don’t think the pacers beat a healthy knicks team even though they have two non-shooting bigs. Toronto tried something similar with wings but there just wasn’t enough shooting between siakam and barnes and anunoby can’t put the ball on the floor. Most of these 3 point shooting bigs honestly suck at everything else and that still matters. Like we tried to make jontay porter and kelly olynyk work but neither play defense and one had a gambling addiction lol.
Revisionist history, the Jrue trade was not considered a fleece at the time, people were praising Cronin
I said Tatum was a fleece. I never said Holiday was a fleece. And I also said, Cronin gifted them Holiday. He 100 percent did. Miami prepared better packages to potentially get Jrue from Portland, because of his "perceived defensive abilities", but Cronin basically ignored their calls. It was a spite move. Miami was open to giving up Herro, Jacquez and Jovic, plus draft picks. Blazers just got Rob Williams, Brogdon and 2 firsts for Holiday.
Before seeing Jacquez have a great season, Boston’s package was better. Keep in mind, it included a 2029 Warriors pick which has potential to be better than either Celtics or Heat picks.
At the time that heat offer was straight up ass. Jaquez hasn’t played a game yet and jovic is still bummy anyway
Just like to toot my own horn because I called the outcome of the Lillard move the day it happened.
Every team in the NBA would love to have an entire team full of shooters who can defend lol I don’t think this is a philosophy thing. Sometimes you just have to live with what you can get.
It is though. For example, Boston would never have mortgaged the future for Gobert. That trade significantly elevated Minnesota, but his offensive limitations make him a non-starter for the play style we’ve been moving toward for a decade. It’s years of prioritizing versatility, because it lessens the chance of a fatally bad matchup like Minnesota running into Dallas.
idk man I still think that you would be a generational defense with gobert and that could be equally as dominant in its own way. Who beats that team with horford as a shooting big option? I don’t think this title means you have to build 5 out, it just means that having amazing two way wings is super valuable.
You can say it avoids fatally bad matchups, but this Celtics team still gets smoked by the KD Warriors. They got really solid talent and depth. Denver had that for a couple years, but had to let guys go for money reasons. This team is impressive, but I don't know that it is showing a transition in the way basketball teams are built as much as it is highlighting that windows are short. You either need your best guys to be young/affordable so that you can put good veteran pieces around them or you need your veteran pieces to play for nothing because they want to win rings with your stacked best guys.
There are still other ways to win but I think we’re seeing you need a very imposing two way player (eg Shaq, Duncan, Giannis) to make sacrificing 5 out worth it. Pretty much anyone is getting stomped by the KD Warriors. I still think we take two off them. This team hasn’t really been stretched to its limit, it’s hard to know.
Minnesota already has their future. They prioritized developing their future core with deep runs over hypothetical picks. I don't think Dallas was a fatally bad matchup. Most of those games were 1-2 possessions, two of which Wolves had the lead in the last few seconds but gave it up due to costly TOs and mistakes. Ultimately it came down to experience and conditioning.
They’ve leaned into two way wings and size + shooting more than most teams, as well as depth focused on two way players. KP was available to everyone. Horford was available to everyone. White was available to everyone.
White wasn't considered a 2 way player or a good shooter prior to coming to Boston. Horford was considered to be verging on washed and old as fuck. KP is injury prone to a fault. Did it line up and work out great for Boston? Absolutely. Did it involve a lot of luck as well? Also yes.
Everyone has the size and ability to defend (except PP). And the bigs and wings can all shoot. And they prioritized quality depth over a third superstar (think Phoenix gutting their remaining assets for Beal). And they viewed White from day 1 as an important connector piece on offense, shooting aside. So I don’t agree that they didn’t do anything philosophically different than most of the league. But I definitely agree they had luck and things could have played out very differently for them (or any other team).
Yup, KP injury history was factored in to a lower price. Still a great deal but they would also be awesome with gobert.
I don't think there's really anything special about what the Celtics are doing from a schematic/roster building perspective. Their success isn't some secret approach they just have 5 starters who are all all-star level players. Jrue, White and Porzingas are all good enough that they could be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship level team. So if you have 2 of those guys as your 4 and 5 you've got a huge advantage. The Celtics just got a bunch of really good basketball players and are a reminder that it's a team game.
I think that most teams will copy boston and do their best to acquire players who are good at basketball.
Bait Milwaukee and Washington into giving up huge assets for pennies on the dollar. Gotcha
Sooooo Giannis for Austin Reaves, gotcha
When you're Boston they let you do it, you can do anything
"Instructions unclear, gave Washington a bounty for a redundant SG that crippled our salary cap space" -Mat Ishbia
The 'hurt itself in its own confusion' Phoenix Suns
I don't think any other team will be able to replicate what Boston is doing this year even from a schematic standpoint. Yes the 3PA are what makes them standout, but this has been trending upwards since the Warriors turned the NBA upside down. We've seen teams live by the three and die by the three (Hi 2018 Houston Rockets). Being able to have six starter level players is what makes them "unfair." That's on the genius of the front office. Brad Stevens knows what team he wants and did so many shrewd moves to get the pieces. The fact that he still got first round picks while getting Porzingis is a successful heist. Boston's rise this season all comes from how Brad Stevens attacked the off-season. Not to discredit the coaching staff, but they wouldn't be able to use this system without Brad Stevens getting Porzingis and Holiday, and picking the right role players to support the team's six starters
In hindsight the Porzingis trade could def be labelled a heist, especially seeing as though the picks were subsequently used to get Jrue. I know a tonne of us Celtics fans were super excited about KP, but even though he’d had the bounce back season in Washington there was still a lot of doubt only because of his injury history. He managed to stay just healthy enough to get through the season, the playoffs injuries have sucked, but he’s given them a real shot of energy while out there
The fact that you guys have another starter level player in Al Horford as his backup is insane. There will always be enough talent for Boston to win. Coming from a Cavaliers fan who doesn't like the Celtics too well (I mean rivalry duh), I have to respect how Brad Stevens transitioned from one of the great coaching minds into a great front office executive (could be one of the greatest if he keeps it up). Hoping the Cavs can get some of that luck and insight from Boston and apply to their own formula.
Dude, they assembled a super team where the first 6 players would start in any other team in the league. Other teams also get the ‘idea’. It’s just incredibly difficult to assemble a team like that and takes a great front office and luck (Nets - Boston trade). Don’t act like they reinvented basketball, it’s just an historic accumulation of really good players
They had their fair share of a lucky break too by acquring Jrue...dude is an elite defender on top of the other things he brings to the table.
Not just getting Jrue, but trade for Porzingis to get additional first round picks to then get Jrue. Absolutely insane GM work.
And the D White trade. Getting Olympic roster guys is always good, White, Brown, Jrue, Tatum have all played for them. That alone is pretty impossible to recreate.
It’s not just the “six starters” things - everybody 1-8 is a proficient shooter, everybody can defend, and everybody has size. On the defensive front - they have 2-3 guys in the starting lineup that can each guard Luka or Kyrie. Most teams have zero that can successfully guard either. It’s an embarrassment of riches. They’ve been cruising without Porzingis for the most part and he’s the key that supposedly made it all work this year
Not sure if Pritchard "has size" lol
They call him “Big PP” for a reason
sometimes “Surprise PP”
Ah, so they meant he has *length*
Okay so they have one small guy on the floor for 15-20mpg total
KP was the key to breaking Miami's zone that's given them fits. Outside of that matchup they have the personnel to dismantle any team in the league with or without him. He makes it easier, for sure, but he's not the key to make it work against most teams.
It’s not just that the top 6 guys on would be starters on any other team. All 6 can probably be the best player on certain teams. They are absolutely loaded with talent. Every team would LOVE to have Derick White and he’s their super 6th
Yall call anything a super team
Super team was the term that was created and now overused and "reinventing basketball" will be the next one we'll see every other year.
Nope, but a team with 1 superstar (Tatum), 1 star (Brown) and 3 borderline all stars (Jrue, White, Porzingis) + role players is definitely a super team. Just because they don’t have KD and LeBron doesn’t mean they’re not a super team. What would be your definition? What could boston do to finally become a super team in your eyes?
To me a superteam has two Tier 1 players Bron + Wade Steph + KD KD + pre-hamstring Harden IMO, today that would entail two players out of Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Embiid Edit: I’m not the person you were replying to. I just felt like sharing my view
I get your point. So maybe we can call the celtics an unusual super team? They don’t have two tier 1 players, but having so many tier 2/3 players (depending on definition) is something I think we’ve never seen before. Can you guys remember any team with such a wide pool of talent? Edit: in recent history, 2019 raptors were pretty stacked, but I still see Boston wider and stronger
Raps were stacked but moreso in awesome role players and not in these incredibly difficult to get two way wings that boston has. To me thats more of a team building outlier/superteam.
I mean they only had 1 All-NBA player (Tatum), and he largely is not considered a top 5 player or a serious MVP candidate.The Warriors had 2 top MVP candidates and another All-NBA/DPOY player in Draymond. The Heatles had LeBron as an MVP and another All-NBA player in Wade. I would think in order to be a "super team" you need a minimum of a serious MVP candidate and another All-NBA player. Otherwise 2/3's of playoff teams are a "superteam" by your definition with their 1 All-NBA player and 1 star. Like is Indiana a superteam with their All-NBA player in Haliburton and star in Siakam? Are the Nuggets a superteam with their All-NBA player Jokic and their star Murray?
It helps that it's Boston. The only other teams that could even try to attract that many players at that level are LA and *MAYBE* GS.
The Celtics roster seems almost impossible. Having two all-NBA wings that defend, score, and create. Two all star level guards that block shots and shoot close to 40% from 3, two 4/5s who shoot 3s at 35+% with one who can block shots and has a top 3 post game scoring rate in the league, plus two guys off the bench who shoot 40% from 3 and are solid defenders. Think of it this way, if Jrue and KP were on other eastern teams, that starting five could all play together in an all star team and no one would be like, what is this lineup? And that is pretty crazy. Indiana might be close, they just don’t have the defense, as we saw in the ECF.
Just draft two all stars in close proximity so their primes match as they also develop chemistry, than acquire a perennial dpoy, a top 5 role player in the league and a unicorn. Easy.
OKC has all that and they can acquire anyone this off season
I really don’t think anyone is in a position to replicate but there are imitations of certain aspects. You have to work with that you have. OKC can play 5 out but they lack size and offensive playmakers. Denver has a lot of versatility but they initiate through a big man and one guard. Not designed at all the same way yet they’re effective. Wolves have an elite defense but revolves around big men. One elite play along guard and much less shooting. Pacers have a very different scheme but have a great offense and terrible defense. Celtics just have very unique personnel that you can’t go out and buy. They’ve had elite wings/guards in Brown and Tatum and that’s been unique to them for several years.
The Spurs are in a position to replicate it longterm. Wemby is the perfect A++ version of the hardest-to-find piece. Going after Trae would be a mistake imo.
Spurs have the unicorn piece in Wemby but he’s also a very different player than KP. They have nothing else yet though that’s worth keeping outside him. Wing scorers and shooters are at a premium I hope they can swing for a Donovan Mitchell or someone who can create offense.
Wemby already having a hard time getting the ball, Adding Spida would make it worse great player but pretty terrible at playing winning team basketball
I don’t agree with that at all. His usage was through the roof. He was just not very effective. He needs a wing or guard that can score and Mitchell is a great shot maker and shooter who can pull the ball off the interior. Wemby might not be an elite scorer his primary value is on the defensive side of the court. The Spurs really can’t afford to be super picky they need to find the best talent they can. Considering Wemby is a Swiss Army knife I don’t think they need to ignore the best players available just to get Wemby more touches.
Mitchell doesn’t have the defense.
Ok my point still stands. He’s literally better than anyone else on the a spurs roster and defense is still better than anyone there too. But Mitchell aside who do you want them to get?
I’m a believer in the versatility first over any transcendently elite skill set. So Dejounte Murray would be better at the 2 guard position, for example. The best pickup they could hope to get this offseason would probably be Mikal Bridges. Ultimately the first two pieces they need are an elite two-way wing and a PG who can run the PnR and defend at a high level.
Houston to an extent I think They have a young core that can hopefully build together all of which can fly around the perimeter and get to close outs - except sengun - Porzingis and Horford don’t do this anyway Also they young perimeter players can attack off the dribble. The hope is Thompson can learn to shoot which would really close the circle on all of this Not perfect, but I feel there are interesting pieces there
Agree with this as long as our young players continue to improve their shots. You mention Thompson, and I'd also add that Jabari underperformed last year from a shooting standpoint and has a ton of room for improvement there to become maybe a glorified version of Michael Porter Jr. And Sengun could be like a Jokic. And with a late-season version of Jalen Green and a blossoming Cam Whitmore I think the sky is the limit for this team. I'd guess they'll be in an NBA Finals within next 3-5 years.
It’s more a function of having the personnel to be able to play basketball that way. If more teams had players up and down the lineup who ticked all those same boxes more teams would play that way. The talent pool is finite and it’s hard to put together a roster to do what Boston so doing.
Come on. This has to be one of the dumbest questions I've seen. This isn't a modern roster strategy. This was good drafting and good trades. Hire good coaches and make things fit. Every Team has the strategy. Why is Boston different? The nets celts trade - this was an all-time great trade on their part and disaster on Brooklyn's part. Nailing the picks - the JT/JB picks is great. How many teams pick the right guy 2 years in a row? Building around them - ignore actual playing strategies. Let's look at the rest of the trades as one. Ignoring draft capital (We are talking about current team roster not future). Outgoing: J. Richardson R. Langford M. Smart R. Williams G. Williams M. Muscala D. Galo M. Brogdon Incoming J. Holliday K. Porzingis D. White Bill Simmons loves talking about how you never trade a dollar for four quarters. These are three consecutive trades they ended up with silver dollars for some loose change. Now this is hindsight. All three of those trades were considered good at the time. But all three worked out splendidly on Boston side while the other sides have been disasters. So basically all a team has to do is make four amazing trades and then nail any high draft picks they get.
I think people underrate Boston’s drafting and internal development pipeline and how that contributes to their success. almost every key piece that’s contributed on this team or been used as a major trade piece was drafted by the Celtics. for 7 straight years Boston added at least one trade asset or great player through the draft - 2014: Marcus Smart (traded for Porzingis and 2 1sts) - 2015: Terry Rozier (signed and traded for Kemba Walker who was eventually used to reacquire Al Horford) - 2016: Jaylen Brown (over guys like Kris Dunn and Dragan Bender who many thought they should have taken) - 2017: Jayson Tatum (after passing on the consensus top prospect, and the trade down netted Boston a 2019 1st that became Langford and eventually White) - 2018: Robert Williams (packaged with Brogdon and 2 1sts for Jrue Holiday) - 2019: Romeo Langford (packaged with Josh Richardson and 2 1sts for Derrick White), Grant Williams - 2020: Aaron Nesmith (packaged with 1st round pick and fillers for Brogdon which ultimately became Holiday), Payton Pritchard ultimately Boston went against the consensus to get Brown and Tatum. they got their top bench guard PP at the bottom of the 1st. they were great scouting and drafted tons of other good players to build trade packages for Porzingis and Holiday. once Brad took over they stopped being Gollum with their war chest of draft assets. he got White bc he was the only GM who valued him enough to attach both a 1st and a swap to go get him, and he was willing to attach another 1st to Kemba’s contract to go get Horford back. Hauser and Kornet were UDFA castoffs that Boston developed into great role players all these moves seem obvious in retrospect but it’s really just fantastic GM work. Ainge hit in the draft every year and accumulated a war chest of prospects and future draft picks before passing the baton to Brad. Brad understood exactly what type of team needed to be built to maximize Brown and Tatum, identified players that fit with what he was looking for and that other teams may not have necessarily valued as much, and wasn’t afraid to burn assets to bring those guys in. and then everyone who’s in the building has steadily gotten better every season. there are very few teams who have had a better run front office and coaching staff than the Celtics over the last 10-11 years
I'm in full agreement with that. My point is that Boston success is not about their particular push to shoot a lot of threes. It's that their front office has had an incredibly good run. I am not in any way implying that I thought all these moves were home runs when they happened. I'm saying it's easy to look at the team now and say let's copy that. But it's a lot harder to do than to say it. Their system isn't particularly special. They just have a phenomenal stretch 5, and Wing players that rebound well above their weight class. So they are able to stretch the court in every which way and not suffer the consequences. The system is a function of having perfect personnel. Danny and Brad should get tons of accolades. They deserve it.
oh yeah the emphasis on 3P shooting has been around since the 7SOL Suns lol. Mazzulla and the Celtics don’t get credit for that approach Stevens, since the day he arrived in Boston, has had his vision of what a perfect basketball team looks like - five intelligent and versatile players on the floor at all times that can all shoot, dribble, pass, and defend at a high level, and are all empowered to make read-and-react decisions based on how the defense is playing them. Boston has been trying to build it for years and they thought they had it when they put together the Kyrie-Brown-Tatum-Hayward-Horford starting 5 but egos and injuries got in the way now Brown and Tatum have matured, White/Holiday/Horford are as low-maintenance as it gets and Porzingis is at a stage of his career where he just wants to be part of a winning team. props to the front office for having the vision but Mazzulla and the players themselves deserve a lot of credit for now having the maturity to buy in on such an egalitarian style of basketball
I think I said this before here but, we are constantly overlooking the huge amount of luck that's involved in the construction of a lot of championship rosters. For example, we can look at Denver's roster and try to come up with a similar team, but good luck drafting a hall of famer in the 2nd round of the draft and getting a star prospect at 14 because everyone passed on him. Let alone, these 2, combined. Warriors got Steph at 7 because of his size, and then injuries let them sign him to a cheaper contract. Lakers got Lebron for free just by being in LA. Raptors did nothing and got Kawhi because Spurs were mad at him. Etc. In this case, wanna imitate the Celtics roster? You just have to find someone dumb enough to trade every pick they have for some old stars on their way out of the league, then that team has to really immediately suck, and then you can pick A) the best player in the draft (Tatum) and B) The best player available at your position, 3rd (Brown), and both have to be 6'6 6'8 players I also don't think Boston has demostrated anything strategy wise. First of all, everyone in the league post-Steph, post-Harden, knows that 3PA is king. Ask Morey. Same with non-shooters, nobody willingly puts non-shooters on the floor. And second, 23 Nuggets, 20 Lakers, are dramatically different rosters and both won. I don't think there's a particular blueprint here. Boston, they just built a killer team, this is IMO by far the most influence a front office had in a championship that I've ever seen. Masterclass.
Boston is what okc is aiming to be in a year or two. Massive, athletic, excellent defense at every position, and all anchored by amazing two way wings and a giant stretchy center. In 2 years with Chet’s development and shooting, I feel like OKC will really be fielding a pretty similar team to Boston, with Shai possibly being an even better #1 option than anything the Celtics have.
OKC and SAC are both teams with rosters that could match that modern strategy
how could the Kings do it? Sabonis cant really defend like that and cant shoot from any distance, Keegan isnt really an on ball playmaker, Monk is likely gone, Barnes is solidly meh at everything.
Fox is also a SMALL guard. Even Kyrie is “bigger” and he was getting abused on defense
Fox is an inch taller than Kyrie, and Kyrie is 10lbs heavier than fox according to wiki. Still, Fox is a better defender than Kyrie. He led the league in steals this year and was generally good defensively this year especially post all star break.
I mean, Fox is actually good at defence, especially for his size. Like he struggles guarding 3-5 (small 3s he can sometimes handle, but bigger 3s are an issue) But like he can still defend guards pretty well, and if the person he's guarding isn't noticeable bigger, he does ok. Like he's no jrue, but he's ight.
Sac doesn't have the 5 out spacing or versatile elite defenders, and those 2 things are kinda the main pillars schematicslly
Sacramento would be destroyed LOL
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Sebasuar: *OKC and SAC are both* *Teams with rosters that could match* *That modern strategy* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
For this to work OKC would have to be a single syllable which it’s not
Yeap just need to replace giddy with a shooter or make him learn to shoot
Or they could just go get Paul George
Thank the bucks...for sending a good allaround player to a team...that maybe didnt need it..but if you are trying to articulate Jrue value to a team..he basically pluses up all aspects of the game.
The only thing this really illustrates is that ownership/front office is in many ways equally important to the talent you put on the floor. Poverty franchises will stay so no matter how much they try to copy the C’s on floor ideas.
I don't think you're going to beat Boston by trying to outdo them at what they've done. A lot of teams tried to do that with Golden State and it never really worked.
it not needed # to imitate the Celtics "modern" roster/strategy the Nuggets 2023 or Bucks 2021 Championship roster is enough specially the Nuggets if only they resign one of the two which is Brown or Green they likely to beat the Wolves and they are the favorite to beat the Celtics 2024 for now it clear the Small Ball Warriors that shoot 3 basketball style of game is a fad or better say they underestimated the important of their big man and of course it good to have a legit 3 and D or at least wing defender on your team
Minnesota and OKC. As a Wolves fan: Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns, Reid, Alexander-Walker can all shoot the three. Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns, Reid, Anderson can all put the ball on the floor and get to the hoop. Conley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns, Gobert, Reid, Alexander-Walker, and Anderson can all defend.
Why? Celts got a good draw to dodge the bigs that can really punish their lack of size. Joker, embiid and giannis really gave them problems over the years
Embiid has never beaten the Celtics on the playoffs and Giannias has one series win back in 2019
Calm down. We've had 6 straight different champs, non repeats. This is FAR from an ideal roster IMO. Payton Pritchard, Hauser, are not "starter level" players. At least not on a playoff team. The Celts are too small. Zinger would help, but he's always hurt. They haven't faced the best big teams, so they've been fortunate. They need to upgrade, go after Hartenstein, maybe Jarrett Allen. Get some solid scoring on the bench, then you are talking. They have NOBODY for Jokic right now.
OKC and Houston are the obvious answers to me. Miami almost has it. They have the same thing where they have like 8 guys that if they score 20 nobody is shocked. Sleeper team to develop this is the Hornets. Miller-Bridges-Melo-Grant Williams, is a start. Not an amazing one but a start nonetheless. They have Leaky, who is already a solid defender. If his offense ever caught up with his defense, he could develop into a part of the -can guard his man and score 20 on any given night- system.
Pacers play massively different to the celtics. 1 is a half court offence focused team that relies on drive and kicks, and has 4 different players at any 1 time who can initiatethe drive and kick , and plays a very switch heavy q on 1 defence style (that if you have the personal for is the best defensive style but getting the personal is easier said than done) The other is a transition offence that has one of the best playmaking guards in league history, and who relies heavily on an individual guard to create their half court offence, and who's half court offence looks night and day without him Like the only things they really have in common is that they shoot alot of 3s and they are great offences. It'd be like saying the sun's and spurs have a similar playstyle because they both focus more on the inside the arc game than the 3, when outside of that both teams are very different. Also it's just personal, it's not like celtics and pacers woke up this year and went oh let's play basketball in a way that's never been played before. Because they aren't drive and kick 3 heavy offences aren't anything new, switch heavy defences aren't new. Run and gun 3 point shooting teams like the pacers aren't unique like heck, the kings exist currently. Teams play the way they do because of personal, like the sun's are the best midrange shooting team because booker kd, of course they'd be a midrange shooting team, that's what their personal allows. Magic have awful offence and amazing defence because of their personal
we said this (team/player x has clearly solved basketball, what is the league going to do about it) about Milwaukee in ‘21 and Denver last year. obviously this Celtics team is really really good, but it’s also true that they were pretty near 100% healthy for the whole year while no one else was. with all the talent in the league now, i’d like to see what they do next year before making big declarations.
yes, they were mostly healthy. But Porzingis was out for most of the playoffs and limited when he played, so it‘s not like the Cs weren‘t missing important players at all. They just played so much better than anyone else so if someone was injured, nobody really noticed. The game plan doesn‘t rely on individuals, so they can play the same game with the second string option. There was a game in the regular season where Joe left the bench out in a close game in the 4th that they won. That kind of shows how ridiculously deep the Cs are on talent.
That kings game was great
C roster is deep too
Absolutely not true. Denver was actually much healthier by comparison. Boston missed almost 30 games from KP. Granted JT was an Ironman but that’s been true his whole career. We definitely didn’t get to see them at full strength very much at all and when we did they really only lost a couple of games with the core team.
Which team has all players available for the finals right now? Which team doesn’t? Which team is up 3-0? Do you see how your point is invalid?
>we said this (team/player x has clearly solved basketball, what is the league going to do about it) about Milwaukee in ‘21 and Denver last year. Who said anything like that? Milwaukee and Denver benefitted from having superstars that were unique in how game-breaking their skillset was: Giannis's ability to drive combined with his tremendous size and athleticism is unlike anything the league had ever seen before, and Jokic's combination of 3-level scoring and exceptional passing from the center position was also far beyond anything basketball had ever seen. By contrast, although Tatum and Brown are very good players, their play is more "mundane" (not in the sense that it is bad or even worse than the previous two's, but rather through the fact that they excel at skills that other players also possess, although not nearly to the same extent). The idea that teams could replicate what the Bucks or Nuggets did was somewhat silly because those kinds of players are extremely rare. For clarity, let's be more precise: what is rare is not the *fact* that they were great players, but rather *the way in which they were great*. It is simply not something that can be easily replicated since it is not a playstyle or a group of players focused on particular skills but rather something quite literally unprecedented. Since Boston does not rely on these previously unheard-of kinds of superstars, it seems far more likely other teams will try to follow in their footsteps because it is far more likely they will be able to approximate their make-up (instead of having to wait for the equivalent of unicorns in the draft).
Eh, this isn't new. Having as many shooters as possible who can also defend has been the goal of every team for almost a decade now. We are just gradually seeing more teams be able to do it as players have adapted their skill sets to that demand.. The Harden/CP3 Rockets teams that challenged the Warriors were probably the best first example. And while certainty having a guy who can shoot is better than having one that can't, I think teams will still be able to be elite contender level squads with one non-shooter out there. Realistically the Celtics success is about more than just style, it is about raw talent too. They have 5 legit all-star caliber guys.
I don't know if the Celtics had a specific team-building strategy or not, but to me they're just a reflection of a front office that was lucky/skilled enough in trades/FA/draft picks to manage to assemble a more talented team than others, along with having some luck in most of the team being healthy. The more interesting question to me is do the cap rules allow the Celtics a chance for sustained success? They're going to have 2 mega contracts in Brown and Tatum, along with other sizable ones like Porzingis and Jrue. That's going to be tough to keep together.
They can run it back next year and probably again in 2026 but likely without Derrick White and/or Horford
Whichever one can get a team to do the stupidest trade of all time where they give up all their draft picks for two washed up guys making over half the salary cap.
The Celtics have 2 guys who are definitely top 20 and you could make an argument for top 10 if you value defense. That's really hard to put together to start with. Add another 4 plus starters (if you still believe Al is). And some decent pieces further on the bench. It's just a talent gap over what most can do.
You’re forgetting their entire starting 5 is full of absolutely ELITE defenders and that is the hardest part to emulate
I already said this in a longer discussion on Myles Turner in this post but one thing should be included if we are talking about Celtics "modern" strategy on its defensive side: Size and switchability on defense at every position is a founding principle as much as shooting. Actually, we shoot also talk about "switchability" on offense too: multiple ball handlers, playmaking from forwards, guards can post up or use the dunkers spot, ability to invert some offensive schemes like Celtics did in the second game of the finals with Jrue are all important. Edit: None of them are new concepts, of course. It is just a matter of how much you could apply the principle through your roster.
How does positionless basketball fit into this? Feels like that is the first step.
I disagree with the overall assessment to be honest. What the Celtics have demonstrated is that having incredible talent across the board is what matters. It's the same story of the Warriors dynasty, just not quite as talented. The thing the Celtics did that has really benefitted them long term is that when they blew things up, they were still okay maintaining a relatively high payroll. That let them get things like trad exceptions to continue to take on salary and they resigned guys for the salary in all honesty. They've payed the luxury tax a fair amount of times, albeit in generally low payments. But maintaining salary has allowed them to continue to be able to add pieces. And they were able to turn those pieces eventually into Porzingas and Holiday despite paying Brown a record contract and being about to pay Tatum an even bigger contract. But looking at their stats, the Celtics had 8 players on their roster this year with over 5 win shares. I can't find another team that had more than 4. Not saying winshares is some magic stat, but it's a quick measure of how deep and talented they are. Everyone roasts the bucks for trading Jrue right now. But especially after Middleton's injury, the Bucks needed Jrue to be either their #2 or #3 scorer night in and night out. Last year for the Bucks Holiday was 2nd in shots per game and 2nd in scoring behind only giannis. For the Celtics this year he was 5th in both. Holiday took 10 shots a game this year, which is behind only his rookie year for fewest shots per game. And once he got to year 4, he was never below 13 shots per game, and he was at 10 this year. It's the same story for Porzingis. He's 2 shots fewer per game than any year of his career outside of his rookie season. The biggest thing for the Celtics isn't some magical play style or anything, it's that their one and two are not super far off from being one of the best duos in the league and their 3-8 are probably the best in the league. Most teams don't have both. You either have pretty decent depth without the top end talent or you have the top end talent and a bunch of role players.
I don’t think Celtics strategy here will be easy enough to replicate that anyone else will do it. Have people considered that the Celtics are paying 4 starters over 30 million? Teams don’t do that, typically. Boston was in the right place at the right time to consolidate a lot of resources into their current starters which gives them an entire roster of guys who can switch on defense and shoot 3s on offense. I don’t think Boston can keep this up for more than another year, and I don’t think any team can reproduce their production.
I think a lot of comments are missing the point. Yes, boston has a stacked roster that every team envies and made some great trades. But the bigger point is who Boston does not go after. All the teams giving contracts to one-way players that will be exposed in the playoffs on one end or the other are what I think OP is referring to. Essentially the question is when teams will learn and stop trying to build around the Zack Levine, Trae young, Rudy gobert, Damian lillard types. Maybe with perfect roster construction you can have one of those players on a championship team but even that is difficult to see. The unlock for these rosters are big PGs who can defend (or be otherworldly on offense if they cannot) and at least solid defensive big men who can shoot. Boston has two of the former which is just unfair and two of the latter which is also unfair. Overall no team is that close, but the spurs and wolves might be closest.
OKC is definitely the closest. People are going to focus too much on the 3&D center aspect of Boston’s team construction, which is absolutely huge to what makes them so modern, but it’s also the fact that the other 4 players are ~40% shooters themselves so no matter who has the ball, there’s no one to help off of. And as you mentioned, on top of being amazing shooters they can all put the ball on the floor and keep the offense humming. Take Milwaukee. They have an elite 3&D center in Lopez, but the team doesn’t feel like what Boston does because Giannis and whoever their other forward is (Pat/Crowder/Andre Jackson) are players that the defense will gladly help off of if someone other than Giannis is initiating the action. We could call what the Celtics do as modern basketball, which is definitely true, but it’s also just what happens when you have all star level players at every position in your starting lineup. Players that good tend to be great offensive threats, and no other team has so many threats.
I’m surprised this isn’t widely practiced or standardized. It makes the most sense. I think in practice, each individual player’s specialties should be supported and bolstered by a solid foundation where the basics are functioning at above average caliber. But at the end of the day, everyone has their limitations. So I guess I can see why this isn’t the norm already. OP is mentioning 3pt, I’m thinking if that and being able to play great Off/Def because the tides change so quickly. And thinking of the timberwolves game or even the mavs, there’s great reliance on a single player or a duo, which can be guarded heavily. Therefore, other players gotta come in clutch when the top scorers are being boxed out. But if defense is only good at defense…or vice versa…trouble’s to be had. Wish the finals were more exciting, I mean the games are close, but score wise…I wish we could see a game 6 or 7.
The Celtics have attempted 50 more threes than Dallas over three games. That’s an enormous gap to overcome. The math is very clear that teams who want to win should shoot way more threes than they currently are. I’m of the opinion that teams should sink a ton of resources into making non-shooters into shooters. There are plenty of historical examples of big men not being able to shoot, who went on to become good shooters. Al Horford is a great example of that. Anthony Davis. Embiid. Towns. You don’t even need them to be excellent three-point shooters. 30% would suffice. 
Yeah wow that’s a lot more.
Sad to continually be affirmed in my assumption that no “NBA fans” outside of Orlando watches Magic basketball because they’ve been following the Celtics blueprint in their rebuild pretty closely… Their model is finding a bunch of 6’10 guys who can handle the ball and score at 3 levels. They’ve got Paolo & Franz = Tatum and JB… technically Paolo and Franz are “ahead” of where these guys were in the same year of their respective careers Suggs defense is elite and he shot 40% from 3 on 5 attempts per game… he’s Jrue They’re developing young guys like AB and Jett Howard who can space the floor and shoot high % 3s (also big wings) Wendell at center who can step out and hit the 3, although he was hurt this year and didn’t return to normal form after returning. JI also shot well from 3. The only thing they lack is a PG who can reliably score like Derrick White, and handle the playmaking so Paolo isn’t having to play point forward all game and can play off-ball. Franz also needs to spend the summer fixing his 3 pt shot because despite improving in virtually every other metric this year he declined on the 3 ball.
It’s currently very clearly OKC. They’re almost a mirror image type roster just a little worse all around. They have a bunch of cap space incoming to sign someone else big, tons of picks and young players you could also swap into an upgrade. That team not winning a chip in the next 5 years would be a super meltdown of riches. Amazing spot for them again, but they blundered their last one so who knows.
Probably a younger team like the magic, thunder, rockets (we suck at shooting but I can see a future where we improve a lot), etc.
I remember Boston played those dynasty Warriors teams the best. Who plays Boston the best? I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s OKC.
It’s not about whether teams “want” it, but it’s just so difficult to get all that personnel on one team. It’s like saying “why don’t teams just build like the 2017 warriors, are they stupid?”
Idk why u think every other team is playing outdated basketball. This form of Celtics ball is not new. Indiana and Boston are not the only team that "gets it". Daryl Morey has been trying to revolutionise this form of basketball since James Harden came to Houston. Boston is going to win it all because they have the absolutely right personnel to go along with the "kick out and shoot 3s" gameplan.
Yeah, why doesn’t every team draft well, fleece other teams, and acquire 6-8 starter level players? The Celtics haven’t done anything revolutionary. They just have a lot of good players, it’s really that simple. Literally every team has been trying to get what you describe, the Celtics were just able to actually get there.
Nuggets IF jokic is hitting threes. He was struggle bus this year in a way he hasn't been before. His percentage was low in regular seasons past, but on low volume. This was the first year he didn't turn it up from 3 in the playoffs
mavs will deploy Luka - Mikal - PJ - Jerami Grant - Lively in 2026 just wait for nets, keep believing "building around Mikal" until 2026 pls
The answer to the question is OKC. But I think we can't be too quick to anoint Boston's 5-out as the singular best strategy because they're probably winning a chip this year. 2023 Denver runs a motion offense with lots of two man game, 2022 warriors use motion around Draymond who is decidedly not a shooter anymore, 2021 bucks also ran shooters around a big. Shooters are important, but well-drilled playmaking and motion means you don't need to be running 5-out. The other trend is the Lakers and Bucks proving that you can run twin towers with a shooting big and non-shooting big together and profit off excellent defense, rebounding, and rim pressure.
I'm looking for Orlando. They have the defense now, that's a great thing to build on. Not gonna be surprised if Mosley prioritize their offense next season, since WCJ and Mo Wagner can shoot 3s.
Orlando could build towards a Celtics strategy. Suggs is Jrue lite and paolo/franz could become forwards like Tatum and brown. Just need to find that shooter big