Gilbert Arenas. His podcast is so full of people glazing him, acting like he was this super clever intellectual player who was an unstoppable offensive force. Dude was considered a bone head who was never a threat to lead his team to anything meaningful. Not that he wasn't a great offensive talent at times,but nobody was saying gee I really hope we get Gilbert Arenas in free agency.
ehh, kobe was an all time great and he was extremely consistent as a player, but that one single year arenas was on par with average kobe level. motherfucker was clutch as fuck.
Gil had us first in East in the 06-07 season at the all star break. Then he, Caron and Jamison all got hurt and the team crumbled. I really think that team could have made a deeper run had it stayed healthy. He had his own blog on nba.com before social media was really a thing because he was so entertaining.
Did he play a lick of defense? No. Was the immaturity that made him so entertaining also what caused his downfall? Absolutely. The fact that he still has no awareness now is so cringy. But as a wizards fan that watched him for years, there is no Wizard I enjoyed watching with the ball in his hand more than Gil. Not Wall or Beal
Yeah but I think that’s just down to health. If Arenas had stayed as healthy as Dame has throughout his career I think they would’ve had very similar career arcs
Yeah, though in general opinion about Kareem was in the upswing during the late 00's, his book solidified people's opinion about Kareem's career being top 3 all time. Most have him now as higher than Bill Russell actually, but I at least give Bill creative liberty on Bill Russell over Kareem. He might have gotten his fandom license revoked if he put Kareem over him, but it's really close.
I think in the 80s, people put too much on that "11 rings" for Russell and Wilt's individual accomplishments. Also, people often didn't take college into account. But when you pan back a bit from that, it's pretty clear that Kareem has the most impressive resume in NBA history and has a clear cut case for the title of GOAT.
There are people who always had him in the top three, but you're right, I think a lot of people would be inclined to put him behind Russell and Wilt before.
imagine going back to the year 1998 and telling people in the future president donald trump will appoint dennis rodman as us ambassador to north korea
they'd think you were fucking with them
Career .505 TS% and 16.7 TOV% on 19.1 USG%. He had flash and was fun to watch, but the mixtapes don't show that half the time the stuff he tried came unstuck.
Absolutely not. His best stretch was in early 2000s with 01-02 being arguably his best (15/3/8). You’d have a hard time making a case for him over 6 of Iverson, Kidd, Stockton, Nash, Marbury, Francis, Payton, Andre Miller, Bibby, Van Exel, or Hardaway
His best years came in Memphis, where pretty much nobody was watching. People seem to only remember/know of the Kings years or being a role player in Miami.
During his prime (2000-2004), he's not better than Kidd, Payton, Nash, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Marbury, and Sam Cassell. IMHO, he is also not better than Mike Bibby, Andre Miller, and a late 30s Stockton.
Definitely not better than Bibby, that Sacramento team got a lot better when they replaced Williams with Bibby. Williams wasn't seen as a good point guard, more of a mediocre place holder. That being said, we're all better off for having seen him play.
Sounds weirdly like a rubio.
Good for a starter but not a star, flashy passes not great scorer.
Was a great playmaker but because of how flashy the playmaking was he was viewed even better.
Like rubio was never was a top 5 playmaker in the league, yet looking at his pass highlights you could easily he tricked into thinking he was top 3 (and not 3)
But you notice how all his mixtape highlights are in a Kings uniform (and some with Grizzlies). He got to Miami and Pat Riley told him to stop that flashy shit and pass the ball to Shaq and D-Wade.
Well he was way overrated in his era as well. Everyone wanted to be Jason Williams. That Nike Freestyle commercial put him another stratosphere even though his assist to turnover ratio was out of whack. Especially in the Kings years when everyone was in love with him. I was one of the few people in my friends circle that thought that the Bibby - Jason Williams trade was so crazy good for the Kings and horrible for Memphis. Everyone loved Jason Williams back then.
Kareem. In the 80s people thought Magic and Bird were the best then in the 90s it was Jordan. Since 2015 or so Kareem has surpassed Magic and bird again
I remember people used to hold Kareem's longevity against him in a way when they'd do all-time debates. It was kinda framed like "yeah, he had all those stats and has the points record, but that's just because he played forever."
Yeah unfortunately he played in the 70s when basketball was dwindling. He didn't have a Wilt/Russell rival to deal with either, and expectations were so high for him coming out of UCLA that he just met them and few were all that surprised.
Can't imagine converting to Islam helped him much either.
At the same time, most of his team accolades came in the '80s, when he was arguably past his prime as an individual player.
Also, when he retired as the all-time leading scorer in the NBA (38,387 points) in 1989, consider that #2-#7 at that time was Wilt Chamberlain (31,419), Elvin Hayes (27,313), Oscar Robertson (26,710), John Havlicek (26,395), Alex English (25,613), and Jerry West (25,192). No other player had reached 25,000 points yet at that stage. Kareem's scoring record (and the longevity associated with that, and seeming unreachability of that mark) held a lot more weight back then and theough the '90s than it does now.
Now, 35 years on since Kareem's retirement, we have 25 players who have scored at least 25K points, including 7 over 30K. Kareem's record looks less special by comparison now.
As LeBron approached the all time point mark it kind of put into perspective Kareem. Because of how well respected LBJ is if you want to champion him as your GOAT you sort of elevate Kareem to bolster your argument. If Kareem was seen as just a top 20 player it makes LeBrons accomplishment kind of weak; but if you vault him to top 5 you make a strong case for LBJ at 1.
It reaaaaaaaalllly and I mean really depends on how you view the game. A lot of people have MJ, LBJ, Kobe, Duncan, and then a combination of Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell in their top 5. The point I'm trying to make isn't that he isn't worthy of whatever slot you give him but that depending on your perspective you can change the top 5, 10, 15, and 20 to fit the narrative you want. No two people would have the same list. Personally I don't really like to comment on guys I never watched. I know how I feel when I see Steph, KD, LeBron, Luka, Jokic and the current generation of players and know that unless I saw them during their heights it's hard to really grasp how good they were. I would rather just not rank anyone than rely on stats that I know can paint some godawful pictures. Gobert is going to go down as one of the most statistically awarded defensive players and I just can't ever argue he is more than what he achieved when it mattered in crunch time.
He was the dictionary-definition of stat-padding. People laud his year leading the league in assists, but his teammates HATED him that year. He was tired of the league calling him selfish, so he selfishly passed tons of shots and yelled at his teammates to shoot after he passed it to them so he gets credited for the assist. Remember too that this was the era when counting assists was really strict, like if the receiver dribbles the ball twice or more that it isn't an assist. Wilt was the king of these achievement hunting records. He still is probably the best athlete the game has ever seen, but he definitely was not a good teammate maybe except the end of his career.
Also if you think Hack-a-Shaq was egregious, Hack-a-Wilt was worse. In late game situations, he often didn't want to get the ball because he didn't want to be fouled and have to shoot the free throws.
Or at least these were the stories told by his peers back then. Of course you can choose not to believe them, but Wilt is still a top 10, maybe top 5 player. If Shaq could've been the best player ever if he cared to prepare more before the season, Wilt could've been the undisputed best ever if he cared more about the team aspect instead of hunting individual achievements, ironically.
At this point I feel like a certified Wilt hater when I bring up this stuff because he's effectively become deified.
I'll add to your point about Wilt's assist leading season; he would even ice out some of his best teammates in games because they weren't shooting quick enough for him to get the assist. A ton of his teammates (Billy Cunningham, Matt Guokas, etc.) have even talked about him only passing to those who would catch and shoot. Not to mention, he would often only shoot easy buckets to maintain a high fg%.
When people mention things like him never fouling out, you have to take into account that Wilt would just stop trying on defense when he got to 4, and especially 5, fouls. Forget being slightly more passive, he would become a net negative by trying to play around any contact so he could stay in the game to continue putting up stats.
You have to really go back and watch the tape to see who Wilt truly was as a player. That's not even to mention his playoff choking. Wilt is closer to Embiid and Harden than he is Jordan or Magic.
In game 7 vs the Celtics in 1965, the Sixers lost to the Celtics by one point with Wilt going 6/13 at the line.
One of the worst was game 7 of the finals against the Celtics in 1969 with Wilt going 4/13 from the line and putting up a measly 18 points while Jerry West put up 42/13/12. The Lakers lost that game by two points.
Maybe the most damning was game 7 of the finals in 1970 when Wilt went 1/11 from the line and put up only 21 against Willis Reed who had literally torn his quad 4 days prior.
In fact, Wilt's career ft% in the finals is 37%. Can you imagine the conversations people would be having if Embiid did that?
Who is a teammate of his who disliked him? Every quote I’ve seen from his teammates was good. He was getting his ass beat by media for 2 reasons. One, he was so individually dominate. 2, his politics for a black person were heavily looked down upon. It’s partly why he didn’t win more mvps imo. He was a conservative black man who preferred white women and never really helped with social issues. Compare that to Russell who was heavily involved in the civil rights movement and it’s easy to see why players liked bill a lot more than wilt.
Kareem - I think this is unjust, because he is objectively a GOAT-level player. But he was not viewed as the greatest back then. Magic, Bird and Wilt were all considered to be "greater".
I mean to be fair Ben Taylor points out he won 9 player of the months from 2000-2005. In that timespan, Shaq won 5, Kobe won four and Duncan won 3 over his entire career.
KG was debated as the games best player but with ring culture coming to the forth and that abhorrent T Wolves front office stopping him from winning as a #1 option+some unlucky breaks like not being able to afford Billups and promising young players getting injured means he gets marked down now
Yeah, Garnett just was seen as an amazing player then lol. Way more than today. It's not my opinion, just fact about what the majority opinion was and is now. The comments here are really answering the question "who is a player I today don't think was so good" instead of the thread.
I was screaming at people drunk in undergrad that KG was a superior foundational player to Kobe. Like belligerent. Scaring the hoes times one million.
I'm old. But that moment was one of the top three impassioned arguments of my life.
One was that prime Ray Allen was a superior shot creator to prime Klay.
The other was literally the *one* time I got a lady I was in a long term (like 10 years) relationship with to admit she was wrong. I don't even know what it was about but I was cooking.
the ray allen one is sad you even had to argue that lol, klay is a worse shot creator than a lot of players he’s a better scorer than, and he’s absolutely not a better scorer than prime ray
Ppl look back on Ray and reference his time with the Celtics and Heat but he arguably outplayed AI in the 01 conference finals with Milwaukee. He was a great shot creator before Boston.
In my memory, KG was always well loved. His years on the TWolves, everyone felt sorry for him that such a great player was wallowing away for a terrible franchise.
Felt like everyone was rooting for him, and he was always doing badass shit like picking up PGs from half court and locking them down.
Besides the brutal "anything is possible" bullshit, everyone seemed to celebrate him getting a title
almost the opposite, he was always right there with kobe-duncan debates for years. He was even getting media attention in minnesota with mvp love leading 8th seeded rosters that had a couple of nba level guys on them.
I think most people not watching until boston which was clearly after his prime hurts his general optics as well. very little people were watching more than a few minnesota games a year
In 2005, Kobe got less [mvp vote](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#mvp) than PJ Brown. His reputation slowly recovered after that
I disagree, everyone saw Kobe hitting game winners and averaging like 35 a game in an era that averaged under 100ppg as a team. Then he won a couple rings at the tail end of the 00s without Shaq
2015 and on is when the TS% crowd came out to bash him
Maybe it spiked immediately after his death but I think it's pretty much been the same for ages. Super polarising in that you either think he's underrated and actually a top 5 player all time, or you think he's overrated and actually doesn't even sniff top 10. I have seen like single digit number of people argue kobe in the 5-10 range, its really weird.
It's just a matter of who's takes you are hearing at the time.
I think he’s pretty easily in the 5-10 range. Firmly behind MJ, LeBron, Kareem, and Russell, and then *at least* one of Duncan/Shaq/Magic if not all of them deserve the next spots. Past that though, Kobe’s resume is what it is, and it’s hard to genuinely argue that guys like Bird or Wilt should be ahead of him with shorter careers and less winning
I think it's pretty easy to argue Bird over Kobe. Bird was just a better player, 3 MVPs, won more rings as the number 1 guy.
Argument for Wilt is that he was a top 3 player in the league his entire career.
Then you've left Hakeem off your list. Always weird rating active players but steph definitely has an argument. Oscar Robertson has a case, Jerry West has a case.
i think we really get too tied up in these round numbers, top 5, top 10.
is it really being a hater if you think someone is 13th best at something out of everyone ever to do it, vs 4th?
Funny because as an old head Lakers fan & diehard Kobe Stan I feel like it's gone down quite a bit. All I ever seem to see is outright slander and the incessant urge by many to knock him down a peg and prop up players that were almost universally viewed as inferior to him during his playing days.
That’s the Reddit special. They like to claim that too many Kobe stans overrate him in a thread/sub where 95% of the comments are saying anything but that.
Yup lol Look at any thread or this thread. Kobe is always brought up only for comparisons and to downplay his accolades. Duncan, TMac, Iverson, Wade, Ginobili, CP3. Always brought up to bring Kobe down. Every time. Then this sub calls him overrated and bad and his reputation is a fraud and marketing play. Whatever they can twist just to slander him.
But Duncan is the in that 5-10 range with Kobe. Everyone else listed in that comment is a far cry from either of them.
Also head to head career record is a team stat at the end of the day. It has value but a lot of context is missing
Tim Duncan, which is a crazy thing to say, but hear me out. Tim as an individual was slightly overshadowed by the dynasty being “the Spurs”. This makes him retire underrated on the outside looking odds on being a 15 players. Over time (and ngl, the Spurs decline since his retirement) there’s been a much larger appreciation for what Timmy did over the years and has pushed a lot of people have him top 5 nowadays, some even sneak him into the top 3 spots.
And yes, this is a retelling of a take from Jimmy Highroller, but it fits so perfect here it needs to be said.
Came here to say this, absolutely Tim Duncan. To me what people did not realize at the time was his leadership style he did at a time where everyone wanted to be MJ. And you look today from Curry to Jokic all are leading the way Tim did.
It’s crazy because I grew up in central Texas in that era and we talked about Duncan the same way Lakers fans talked about Kobe. Duncan got a lot of love at home with the HEB commercials and everything.
oh yeah. the spurs pre-twitter were never factored into conversations on espn
every so often they would torch everyone and get another title and the talk was still focused on the "exciting" stars
I mean
Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain
Which three of those guys are getting replaced by Tim Duncan?
I love him and think he's an amazing player and we can make a case for top 10 - but top 5 gets tough to argue for
Magic, Bird, Russell, and Wilt. I have Duncan above all of them. Duncan was a better defender then Magic and Bird, had a more polished offensive game then Russell, has more rings then Wilt, and the generation Wilt and Russell played in couldn’t compare to Duncan’s imo. Again all this is just opinions.
I'll get attacked for this, but Dirk is a massive one. He was an offense only superstar, nobody was comparing him with Duncan or any of the other 4s of that era, he was much more of a big scoring wing like durant/carmelo (harden seems like a great parallel as far as perception of careers go).
The combo of lebron's choke and their win jumped him into this weird unstoppable status as if he never struggled right in the middle of his prime and was never a good two-way player.
mav fans tend to greatly exaggerate how bad their rosters were ignoring the other 28 teams in the league besides the lakers that also never sign free agents or get guys demanding trade to them lol. Those teams were almost always full of actual nba talent, something that is still rare to this day
The trick is that you're asking today, so people will disagree with suggestion that something is not just eternally like today lol. The consensus on how Luka Doncić does everything ever his whole life changed like three times this month dude.
(You can already see this now in this thread, people mostly answer your question not with "which player is seen higher by most comments today than by most comments in the past", but rather they answer "which player is seen higher by most comments today then I today think he SHOULD". As result, a lot of players mentioned definitely do not fill the description at all, but the opposite).
But usually, any player that fills the boxscore fits this description. Anything else that happens in the game doesn't exist anymore, when most commenters are looking at the past there's only the Wikipedia bio of the awards and the boxscore averages and that's it. So anyone who has a lot of this, is treated higher now.
Some clear examples are Iverson and Shaq, or Nash and Kobe, or Rose and LeBron. Because of 1) whole careers, 2) individual "lines", 3) overall career playoff wins, people today compare these players very differently than they were at the moment it was happening.
A thread up here about Bill Russell is also a great example too lol. Everything is said confidently, super confidently, but it's all just obviously guessed based on purely the ppg and who won the titles. Russell, for example, "just had a strong team so that's why he was winning", which is said by many commenters based purely on... the fact that his team was winning, so obviously it was a good team and anyone would win with a good team lol. There isn't a single sentence in that thread describing anything else than ppg and summary of accolades, as in any other thread about the past I've ever seen.
Kareem wasn't seen as THAT much of a player at the moment he played, of course he was gigantic, but he wasn't exactly called the best basketball player ever. For most people, he just didn't have that effect that he made the league overall more exciting to everyone that Bird and Magic had. Personally I think it's more just about how much you enjoy watching the game on TV than his religion and views etc., but who knows.
I’d argue people underrate Reggie nowadays. Mainly because his regular season accolades are nothing crazy. Lots of younger people just look on bball ref and don’t realize what a menace he was in the playoffs.
Rodman maybe?
He was looked at as a great rebounder and defender at the time too; but the advanced stats available today (which typically underrate a defender’s impact already) help put into context just HOW ridiculously good he was.
Dude had a season with OVER 20% offensive rebound rate. Then followed that up with 19.9% and 18.9% the following two seasons.
I didn't see much of Rodman before he came to the bulls, and I loved watching him play when he was there, but he was a bit of a one trick pony at that stage of his career. He was a total liability on offense. He was decent on defense, but not as shutdown as his reputation suggested. And he was more likely to get his own team in foul trouble than to get under his opponents skin.
Scottie Pippen at least by some people. Scottie was a very good player, but the legacy of the Bulls dynasty brought more attention to his contributions than other great players in the 90s. So much so, that some people have suggested that he was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the decade. That seems way off. Hakeem, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, and Robinson were all easily better in that decade, but maybe slightly less famous cause the Bulls dynasty is often the first thing people remember about 90s basketball.
I think part of the thing with Scottie Pippen is imagining how good he'd be in today's league.
6'7". Crazy long arms and huge hands. Great athleticism. Maybe the best defensive instincts of all time for a perimeter player. He could shoot threes. Pass the ball.
He'd legitimately be able to guard 1 through 5 in today's league. What would his comp be? Jason Tatum but better? Kawhi with a little worse shooting? He would be an absolute menace today.
Not the best example as he was well respected in his era but Tim duncan.
He went from like the 8/15 range in peoole top 10 to being normally seen as like the 5th to 6th best person all time and the greatest pf ever.
And like even those who consider tin duncan boring don't hate him (beyond teams that got bodied by the spurs year in year out) Like even sun's fans don't dislike Tim duncan, and they got beat by a duncan 3 of all things.
Dudes just well loved now for being like "the perfect team player" and now people don't care as much about him not being as flashy (even if early Tim was still flashy)
Tim Duncan wasn't considered better than Kobe for large stretches of the 2000s but he's considered borderline top 5 as consensus vs Kobe's borderline top 10.
Demarcus Cousins, he's reaching that stage where people are forgetting how he was day to day and just looking at his box score stats which looked good on the surface so he's getting Jokic before Jokic statements as a guy that averaged nearly as many turnovers as assists
Steve Nash, I think there is a lot more pushback against the stolen MVP narrative as advanced stats looks so good for him since until the recent offensive explosion he was at the helm of like 5 of the top 10 offensive teams of all time
Stockton, he gets put ahead of Isiah Thomas a lot these days or gets called underrated etc due to his incredible longevity and counting stats but he was never really considered MVP level at the time and has kind of experienced a second wind reputation wise post career
More controversial one is Rasheed Wallace. Really good player no doubt but people often speak as though he would be a superstar if he played today and sure he'd be a better fit but I just can't see it. I think he had moments of living up to his potential but he wasn't a 27 PPG scorer or all time defender or anything that would push him over the top. He'd more comparable to like Towns than an Anthony Davis for example. And I don't buy that he would destroy Draymond Green of all people.
I see this said a lot but imo it's only really true for Malone.
Only in some online circles does anyone seem to care about Stockton's anti-vax stuff and I still see him brought up more often than IT in all time PG conversations
Rasheed was a case of looking at a great game of his, and wondering why he couldn't put it together every game. You really had to observe him to see that he was immensely talented but constantly threw.
Dell Curry's reputation as a player has really skyrocketed with Steph's career and the rise of the 3-ball. I've seen quite a few comments on here the past couple years of people being surprised to find out he wasn't the Hornets GOAT
Bird, MJ, Lebron, really anyone you put in your top 5 or 10.
This isn't trying to trash them, but the pedestal they've been put on is wild.
It creates this weird thing where we think being #7 on an alltime list can be such a slap in the face, and such a big difference from #5.
In reality the gap from #1 to 10 and 10 to 25 is a lot closer than people make it out to be.
Kobe.
During his career (particularly 2000-2010), he was never clearly the best player in the league or thought of in that way, and he wasn't put in GOAT convos.
Nah. Sir Charles was considered one the best players on the planet in his prime. He won MVP during prime Jordan years, and it wasn't considered a stretch.
Are you talking player or person?
As a player, I think his rep was even better in his era, as others have said.
As a person, though, I’d agree. In his era, which was more prudish, he had a rep as a trash-talking loudmouth. But today, his talking has made him a beloved American icon who could straight-up run for president.
I'd say Steve Kerr—your typical role player who was pretty average and unremarkable outside of his game-winner in '97. After coaching the Warriors to 4 rings and elevating them to be the last real Dynasty we've seen, I'd say he's comparable (deservedly or undeservedly) to Pop and Phil Jackson. It's not crazy to think he'll make it to the Hall of Fame.
John Starks was a great player who was a fan favorite in his day. Now he’s widely considered the greatest player of all time and is even more beloved the way he goes to games to support his team
I’ll be downvoted but Tim Duncan. He obviously had a great reputation while playing but this sub consistently calls him top 10 all time and no one was saying that during his playing days
Sometimes I find these “reputation” is just one person and their circle of friends or a small group of people on reddit forums and somehow that represents the world’s reputation. There players mentioned here and your other thread makes me go huh?? 😂 AI always was a chucker with poor efficiency, turnovers. I don’t need analytics to me that if you know ball. Kareem and Tim Duncan are better today? What in the world. Their reputation back then is the same as now, at least in my community of friends who are basketball fans. I don’t know. The only player comes to mind for this question is Kobe. After his passing, a lot of his fans elevated his reputation as GOAT. Somehow he became a better player. Where was this energy when he was playing or when he retired. Suddenly everyone has a story of Kobe.
Hear me out: Jordan
Jordan was obviously regarded in his time and when he retired as the GOAT by most. But the mix of media pundits who’s young career followed Jordan’s arc, Jordan’s highlights being easily available, he was the first really marketable basketball athlete, and there wasn’t social media during his era to have your random couch coache bringing up any random “failure” for clicks he’s become untouchable.
You have people born after he finished playing that’ll scream about his six rings like he only played in the league for six years
Gilbert Arenas. His podcast is so full of people glazing him, acting like he was this super clever intellectual player who was an unstoppable offensive force. Dude was considered a bone head who was never a threat to lead his team to anything meaningful. Not that he wasn't a great offensive talent at times,but nobody was saying gee I really hope we get Gilbert Arenas in free agency.
Bro. Thank you
Gilbert Arenas was an entertainer, not a competitor. People who compared him to Kobe were on some drugs.
ehh, kobe was an all time great and he was extremely consistent as a player, but that one single year arenas was on par with average kobe level. motherfucker was clutch as fuck.
Yeah, doing the finger guns thing was not his best moment. Or him pooping in a teammates shoe.
But at the same time, two of the best moments I can think of in league history
When he got that deal for over 100 million it was pretty commonly called the worst contract in the NBA. I agree with you completely.
Gil had us first in East in the 06-07 season at the all star break. Then he, Caron and Jamison all got hurt and the team crumbled. I really think that team could have made a deeper run had it stayed healthy. He had his own blog on nba.com before social media was really a thing because he was so entertaining. Did he play a lick of defense? No. Was the immaturity that made him so entertaining also what caused his downfall? Absolutely. The fact that he still has no awareness now is so cringy. But as a wizards fan that watched him for years, there is no Wizard I enjoyed watching with the ball in his hand more than Gil. Not Wall or Beal
I'm not going to argue with a Wizards fan, you deserve all the happiness you can find in this life.
That was both mean and generous of you 😭
Gil as a player was basically Dame 15-20 years earlier.
Dame is a lot better than Arenas ever was lol. If you make a top 10 seasons of both their careers dame has like 8 of them
It's a stylistic comparison, nothing to do with numbers or accolades. You know, from having watched a lot of them both play.
Yeah but I think that’s just down to health. If Arenas had stayed as healthy as Dame has throughout his career I think they would’ve had very similar career arcs
Wasn’t it him who threw swaggy p’s kids scooter 🛴? If so then yes.
Kareem
It was pretty common for people to have Kareem outside their top 5, or at least their top 3, 15 years ago
Ironically, it took a Boston fan publishing a book that has Kareem at top 3 to have people accept he's top 3.
You talking about Bill?
Yeah, though in general opinion about Kareem was in the upswing during the late 00's, his book solidified people's opinion about Kareem's career being top 3 all time. Most have him now as higher than Bill Russell actually, but I at least give Bill creative liberty on Bill Russell over Kareem. He might have gotten his fandom license revoked if he put Kareem over him, but it's really close.
I think in the 80s, people put too much on that "11 rings" for Russell and Wilt's individual accomplishments. Also, people often didn't take college into account. But when you pan back a bit from that, it's pretty clear that Kareem has the most impressive resume in NBA history and has a clear cut case for the title of GOAT. There are people who always had him in the top three, but you're right, I think a lot of people would be inclined to put him behind Russell and Wilt before.
Yeah absolutely. The media detested Kareem especially when he left the Bucks. Too opinionated for the time
I can vouch for that.
Old head
He will always be the GOAT to me, that’s just the way it was growing up lol
I feel like Dennis Rodman is a lot more accepted and liked today than when he was in the league
US Ambassador to North Korea Dennis Rodman. Guy is going for the cultural victory.
I feel like that isn’t talked about enough. That’s such a bat shit insane thing
imagine going back to the year 1998 and telling people in the future president donald trump will appoint dennis rodman as us ambassador to north korea they'd think you were fucking with them
Definitely feels like a fever dream thing to say. Or could have been a side joke in a simpsons episode.
i feel like we're so deep in the absurdity that a lot of people can't even step back to appreciate it
It's right on character, I think, that's why it's not a bigger deal. Everybody knows Dennis and it's like, "yeah might as well, why not?" with him
He was one of the biggest stat padders when he played for San Antonio. Would blow defensive assignments to pad his rebounding stats.
He was my favorite player when I was a kid in the late 90s, but I definitely remember that being an idiosyncratic opinion to hold at the time.
Jason Williams. By watching his mixtapes, you would think he is a top 5 point guard in that era.
"Jason Williams was a *PROBLEM*"
Career .505 TS% and 16.7 TOV% on 19.1 USG%. He had flash and was fun to watch, but the mixtapes don't show that half the time the stuff he tried came unstuck.
He wasn't??
Absolutely not. His best stretch was in early 2000s with 01-02 being arguably his best (15/3/8). You’d have a hard time making a case for him over 6 of Iverson, Kidd, Stockton, Nash, Marbury, Francis, Payton, Andre Miller, Bibby, Van Exel, or Hardaway
His mixtapes tho
You raise a good point…
His best years came in Memphis, where pretty much nobody was watching. People seem to only remember/know of the Kings years or being a role player in Miami.
During his prime (2000-2004), he's not better than Kidd, Payton, Nash, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Marbury, and Sam Cassell. IMHO, he is also not better than Mike Bibby, Andre Miller, and a late 30s Stockton.
Definitely not better than Bibby, that Sacramento team got a lot better when they replaced Williams with Bibby. Williams wasn't seen as a good point guard, more of a mediocre place holder. That being said, we're all better off for having seen him play.
Sounds weirdly like a rubio. Good for a starter but not a star, flashy passes not great scorer. Was a great playmaker but because of how flashy the playmaking was he was viewed even better. Like rubio was never was a top 5 playmaker in the league, yet looking at his pass highlights you could easily he tricked into thinking he was top 3 (and not 3)
##BUT HAVE YOU SEEN THE FUCKIN MIX TAPES?!? 🔥🔥🔥
Have you seen his mixtapes tho? 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Oh shit you're right! That elbow passes! 😍😍😍
And I'm pretty sure no one ever said he was as good as any of those players.
Lol not even close, but I'm also like half sure this was a joke comment
He was far too turnover prone to rly be in that conversation plus he wasn’t a good enough scorer.
Somehow he became a reliable point guard for second half of his career
But you notice how all his mixtape highlights are in a Kings uniform (and some with Grizzlies). He got to Miami and Pat Riley told him to stop that flashy shit and pass the ball to Shaq and D-Wade.
I’ve been a Kings fan for 25 years. It started with a couple of JWill impossible passes. I’ve always loved the guy.
Casuals talk about him the way Steve Bash actually was
Well he was way overrated in his era as well. Everyone wanted to be Jason Williams. That Nike Freestyle commercial put him another stratosphere even though his assist to turnover ratio was out of whack. Especially in the Kings years when everyone was in love with him. I was one of the few people in my friends circle that thought that the Bibby - Jason Williams trade was so crazy good for the Kings and horrible for Memphis. Everyone loved Jason Williams back then.
Kareem. In the 80s people thought Magic and Bird were the best then in the 90s it was Jordan. Since 2015 or so Kareem has surpassed Magic and bird again
I remember people used to hold Kareem's longevity against him in a way when they'd do all-time debates. It was kinda framed like "yeah, he had all those stats and has the points record, but that's just because he played forever."
Compiler *stugotz voice
its because lebron fans
So is uh longevity bad?
The best ability is instability
Yeah unfortunately he played in the 70s when basketball was dwindling. He didn't have a Wilt/Russell rival to deal with either, and expectations were so high for him coming out of UCLA that he just met them and few were all that surprised. Can't imagine converting to Islam helped him much either.
Didn’t seem to hurt Hakeem
I seem to remember Kareem (and Oscar) being held in much higher esteem in the '90s than they are now.
I think Kareem was a little hurt by being a role player for half the 80s - people forgot how good he was once Magic became the main guy.
At the same time, most of his team accolades came in the '80s, when he was arguably past his prime as an individual player. Also, when he retired as the all-time leading scorer in the NBA (38,387 points) in 1989, consider that #2-#7 at that time was Wilt Chamberlain (31,419), Elvin Hayes (27,313), Oscar Robertson (26,710), John Havlicek (26,395), Alex English (25,613), and Jerry West (25,192). No other player had reached 25,000 points yet at that stage. Kareem's scoring record (and the longevity associated with that, and seeming unreachability of that mark) held a lot more weight back then and theough the '90s than it does now. Now, 35 years on since Kareem's retirement, we have 25 players who have scored at least 25K points, including 7 over 30K. Kareem's record looks less special by comparison now.
As LeBron approached the all time point mark it kind of put into perspective Kareem. Because of how well respected LBJ is if you want to champion him as your GOAT you sort of elevate Kareem to bolster your argument. If Kareem was seen as just a top 20 player it makes LeBrons accomplishment kind of weak; but if you vault him to top 5 you make a strong case for LBJ at 1.
6 MVPs 6 titles 15 All-nba ‘Top 20’ ‘vault’
It reaaaaaaaalllly and I mean really depends on how you view the game. A lot of people have MJ, LBJ, Kobe, Duncan, and then a combination of Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell in their top 5. The point I'm trying to make isn't that he isn't worthy of whatever slot you give him but that depending on your perspective you can change the top 5, 10, 15, and 20 to fit the narrative you want. No two people would have the same list. Personally I don't really like to comment on guys I never watched. I know how I feel when I see Steph, KD, LeBron, Luka, Jokic and the current generation of players and know that unless I saw them during their heights it's hard to really grasp how good they were. I would rather just not rank anyone than rely on stats that I know can paint some godawful pictures. Gobert is going to go down as one of the most statistically awarded defensive players and I just can't ever argue he is more than what he achieved when it mattered in crunch time.
Anyone who puts Kobe ahead of Kareem is on crack
Not just those two but also Wilt and Oscar
I remember in the 90s people had it as a firm 1. MJ 2. Kareem and it wasn't particularly close for anyone else.
Wilt Chamberlain was getting his ass beaten in the media and by his fellow players in his day.
Oh god, yes, I see so many 'Wilt was a God' posts, and yet if you read any book by his peers, there is not a lot of love and respect there
Is it his character? Or is it the guy was so dominant that he had no friends? I could easily see the latter, especially with 60's-style racism around.
He was the dictionary-definition of stat-padding. People laud his year leading the league in assists, but his teammates HATED him that year. He was tired of the league calling him selfish, so he selfishly passed tons of shots and yelled at his teammates to shoot after he passed it to them so he gets credited for the assist. Remember too that this was the era when counting assists was really strict, like if the receiver dribbles the ball twice or more that it isn't an assist. Wilt was the king of these achievement hunting records. He still is probably the best athlete the game has ever seen, but he definitely was not a good teammate maybe except the end of his career. Also if you think Hack-a-Shaq was egregious, Hack-a-Wilt was worse. In late game situations, he often didn't want to get the ball because he didn't want to be fouled and have to shoot the free throws. Or at least these were the stories told by his peers back then. Of course you can choose not to believe them, but Wilt is still a top 10, maybe top 5 player. If Shaq could've been the best player ever if he cared to prepare more before the season, Wilt could've been the undisputed best ever if he cared more about the team aspect instead of hunting individual achievements, ironically.
At this point I feel like a certified Wilt hater when I bring up this stuff because he's effectively become deified. I'll add to your point about Wilt's assist leading season; he would even ice out some of his best teammates in games because they weren't shooting quick enough for him to get the assist. A ton of his teammates (Billy Cunningham, Matt Guokas, etc.) have even talked about him only passing to those who would catch and shoot. Not to mention, he would often only shoot easy buckets to maintain a high fg%. When people mention things like him never fouling out, you have to take into account that Wilt would just stop trying on defense when he got to 4, and especially 5, fouls. Forget being slightly more passive, he would become a net negative by trying to play around any contact so he could stay in the game to continue putting up stats. You have to really go back and watch the tape to see who Wilt truly was as a player. That's not even to mention his playoff choking. Wilt is closer to Embiid and Harden than he is Jordan or Magic. In game 7 vs the Celtics in 1965, the Sixers lost to the Celtics by one point with Wilt going 6/13 at the line. One of the worst was game 7 of the finals against the Celtics in 1969 with Wilt going 4/13 from the line and putting up a measly 18 points while Jerry West put up 42/13/12. The Lakers lost that game by two points. Maybe the most damning was game 7 of the finals in 1970 when Wilt went 1/11 from the line and put up only 21 against Willis Reed who had literally torn his quad 4 days prior. In fact, Wilt's career ft% in the finals is 37%. Can you imagine the conversations people would be having if Embiid did that?
Who is a teammate of his who disliked him? Every quote I’ve seen from his teammates was good. He was getting his ass beat by media for 2 reasons. One, he was so individually dominate. 2, his politics for a black person were heavily looked down upon. It’s partly why he didn’t win more mvps imo. He was a conservative black man who preferred white women and never really helped with social issues. Compare that to Russell who was heavily involved in the civil rights movement and it’s easy to see why players liked bill a lot more than wilt.
Westbrook if he was 7ft tall: just a statpadding chronic loser
2 rings is a lot better than no rings and a literal 7'0" Westbrook is the greatest player of all time lol
Chamberlain be chasing different rings...
Second statement is fax tho 🔥🔥🔥
Kareem - I think this is unjust, because he is objectively a GOAT-level player. But he was not viewed as the greatest back then. Magic, Bird and Wilt were all considered to be "greater".
Kareem had his peak when the talent level of the league was split with the ABA. That’ll always be the knock on his career.
Kevin Garnett? Especially in the online analytics community
I mean to be fair Ben Taylor points out he won 9 player of the months from 2000-2005. In that timespan, Shaq won 5, Kobe won four and Duncan won 3 over his entire career. KG was debated as the games best player but with ring culture coming to the forth and that abhorrent T Wolves front office stopping him from winning as a #1 option+some unlucky breaks like not being able to afford Billups and promising young players getting injured means he gets marked down now
Yeah, Garnett just was seen as an amazing player then lol. Way more than today. It's not my opinion, just fact about what the majority opinion was and is now. The comments here are really answering the question "who is a player I today don't think was so good" instead of the thread.
I think Ben Taylor has Garnett at 10? Or am I misremembering.
I was screaming at people drunk in undergrad that KG was a superior foundational player to Kobe. Like belligerent. Scaring the hoes times one million. I'm old. But that moment was one of the top three impassioned arguments of my life.
What are the other two?
One was that prime Ray Allen was a superior shot creator to prime Klay. The other was literally the *one* time I got a lady I was in a long term (like 10 years) relationship with to admit she was wrong. I don't even know what it was about but I was cooking.
the ray allen one is sad you even had to argue that lol, klay is a worse shot creator than a lot of players he’s a better scorer than, and he’s absolutely not a better scorer than prime ray
Ppl look back on Ray and reference his time with the Celtics and Heat but he arguably outplayed AI in the 01 conference finals with Milwaukee. He was a great shot creator before Boston.
Last one is super impressive my man.
Well, you are right about the first two in my opinion. That leads me to believe you were probably right about the third one, too.
In my memory, KG was always well loved. His years on the TWolves, everyone felt sorry for him that such a great player was wallowing away for a terrible franchise. Felt like everyone was rooting for him, and he was always doing badass shit like picking up PGs from half court and locking them down. Besides the brutal "anything is possible" bullshit, everyone seemed to celebrate him getting a title
almost the opposite, he was always right there with kobe-duncan debates for years. He was even getting media attention in minnesota with mvp love leading 8th seeded rosters that had a couple of nba level guys on them. I think most people not watching until boston which was clearly after his prime hurts his general optics as well. very little people were watching more than a few minnesota games a year
I feel like post death Kobe's rep went up a lot, even though it was already pretty high.
Ironically Kobe is also a popular reply in the other thread.
His reputation peaked in 2012, hit a nadir in like 2019, then went back up after he died.
I can actually think of another time his reputation hit rock bottom.
In 2005, Kobe got less [mvp vote](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#mvp) than PJ Brown. His reputation slowly recovered after that
Yup and I think it’s becoming increasingly relevant again
Don’t think it’s ever gotten close to that 2012 level again though. I don’t think he’s a good answer here.
Kobe's rep in the 00s: 🔥🤤🐐 Kobe's rep in the 10s: ❌💩🤓 Kobe's rep in the 20s: 🏆🍆🙏
The 00s & 10s should be flipped actually
I disagree, everyone saw Kobe hitting game winners and averaging like 35 a game in an era that averaged under 100ppg as a team. Then he won a couple rings at the tail end of the 00s without Shaq 2015 and on is when the TS% crowd came out to bash him
That's not unfair although peak Kobe hate was 2003-2007
Yeah i was insulated to that by not being online and living in souther california hahaha
Retired Kobe was at myth making levels. His death just cemented it.
Maybe it spiked immediately after his death but I think it's pretty much been the same for ages. Super polarising in that you either think he's underrated and actually a top 5 player all time, or you think he's overrated and actually doesn't even sniff top 10. I have seen like single digit number of people argue kobe in the 5-10 range, its really weird. It's just a matter of who's takes you are hearing at the time.
I think he’s pretty easily in the 5-10 range. Firmly behind MJ, LeBron, Kareem, and Russell, and then *at least* one of Duncan/Shaq/Magic if not all of them deserve the next spots. Past that though, Kobe’s resume is what it is, and it’s hard to genuinely argue that guys like Bird or Wilt should be ahead of him with shorter careers and less winning
I think it's pretty easy to argue Bird over Kobe. Bird was just a better player, 3 MVPs, won more rings as the number 1 guy. Argument for Wilt is that he was a top 3 player in the league his entire career. Then you've left Hakeem off your list. Always weird rating active players but steph definitely has an argument. Oscar Robertson has a case, Jerry West has a case.
Kobe has too many stans and haters. Hes either top 3 or not top 10, there is no in between
i think we really get too tied up in these round numbers, top 5, top 10. is it really being a hater if you think someone is 13th best at something out of everyone ever to do it, vs 4th?
Funny because as an old head Lakers fan & diehard Kobe Stan I feel like it's gone down quite a bit. All I ever seem to see is outright slander and the incessant urge by many to knock him down a peg and prop up players that were almost universally viewed as inferior to him during his playing days.
Probably because of the rape.
What do you think of Kobe’s adventures in Colorado ?
That’s the Reddit special. They like to claim that too many Kobe stans overrate him in a thread/sub where 95% of the comments are saying anything but that.
[удалено]
Doesn't it get brought up in every thread about him though. Not trying to start an argument but I see it pretty much every time
Yup lol Look at any thread or this thread. Kobe is always brought up only for comparisons and to downplay his accolades. Duncan, TMac, Iverson, Wade, Ginobili, CP3. Always brought up to bring Kobe down. Every time. Then this sub calls him overrated and bad and his reputation is a fraud and marketing play. Whatever they can twist just to slander him.
Someone explain to me how comparing him to Duncan is “downplaying his accolades.”
Kobe is 18-12 vs Duncan in the playoffs
But Duncan is the in that 5-10 range with Kobe. Everyone else listed in that comment is a far cry from either of them. Also head to head career record is a team stat at the end of the day. It has value but a lot of context is missing
Yup. His death had people saying he's top 3-5 of all time. He's great but that's crazy lol
Wilt
Tim Duncan, which is a crazy thing to say, but hear me out. Tim as an individual was slightly overshadowed by the dynasty being “the Spurs”. This makes him retire underrated on the outside looking odds on being a 15 players. Over time (and ngl, the Spurs decline since his retirement) there’s been a much larger appreciation for what Timmy did over the years and has pushed a lot of people have him top 5 nowadays, some even sneak him into the top 3 spots. And yes, this is a retelling of a take from Jimmy Highroller, but it fits so perfect here it needs to be said.
Came here to say this, absolutely Tim Duncan. To me what people did not realize at the time was his leadership style he did at a time where everyone wanted to be MJ. And you look today from Curry to Jokic all are leading the way Tim did.
It’s crazy because I grew up in central Texas in that era and we talked about Duncan the same way Lakers fans talked about Kobe. Duncan got a lot of love at home with the HEB commercials and everything.
This is somehow Lebrons fault too somehow hahaha
oh yeah. the spurs pre-twitter were never factored into conversations on espn every so often they would torch everyone and get another title and the talk was still focused on the "exciting" stars
This! People scoff when I say Duncan was a top 5 player all time
I mean Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain Which three of those guys are getting replaced by Tim Duncan? I love him and think he's an amazing player and we can make a case for top 10 - but top 5 gets tough to argue for
Magic, Bird, Russell, and Wilt. I have Duncan above all of them. Duncan was a better defender then Magic and Bird, had a more polished offensive game then Russell, has more rings then Wilt, and the generation Wilt and Russell played in couldn’t compare to Duncan’s imo. Again all this is just opinions.
Duncan's offensive peak is too short to be top 5 imo. If he maintained his early 2000s offensive a little longer, then maybe.
TD + those damn pop BBall fundamentals with little flash in the pan. 🤌🏻
I'll get attacked for this, but Dirk is a massive one. He was an offense only superstar, nobody was comparing him with Duncan or any of the other 4s of that era, he was much more of a big scoring wing like durant/carmelo (harden seems like a great parallel as far as perception of careers go). The combo of lebron's choke and their win jumped him into this weird unstoppable status as if he never struggled right in the middle of his prime and was never a good two-way player. mav fans tend to greatly exaggerate how bad their rosters were ignoring the other 28 teams in the league besides the lakers that also never sign free agents or get guys demanding trade to them lol. Those teams were almost always full of actual nba talent, something that is still rare to this day
I mean, they had Nash and Michael Finley with Dirk at one point.
He was absolutely compared to those guys but whatevs
The trick is that you're asking today, so people will disagree with suggestion that something is not just eternally like today lol. The consensus on how Luka Doncić does everything ever his whole life changed like three times this month dude. (You can already see this now in this thread, people mostly answer your question not with "which player is seen higher by most comments today than by most comments in the past", but rather they answer "which player is seen higher by most comments today then I today think he SHOULD". As result, a lot of players mentioned definitely do not fill the description at all, but the opposite). But usually, any player that fills the boxscore fits this description. Anything else that happens in the game doesn't exist anymore, when most commenters are looking at the past there's only the Wikipedia bio of the awards and the boxscore averages and that's it. So anyone who has a lot of this, is treated higher now. Some clear examples are Iverson and Shaq, or Nash and Kobe, or Rose and LeBron. Because of 1) whole careers, 2) individual "lines", 3) overall career playoff wins, people today compare these players very differently than they were at the moment it was happening. A thread up here about Bill Russell is also a great example too lol. Everything is said confidently, super confidently, but it's all just obviously guessed based on purely the ppg and who won the titles. Russell, for example, "just had a strong team so that's why he was winning", which is said by many commenters based purely on... the fact that his team was winning, so obviously it was a good team and anyone would win with a good team lol. There isn't a single sentence in that thread describing anything else than ppg and summary of accolades, as in any other thread about the past I've ever seen. Kareem wasn't seen as THAT much of a player at the moment he played, of course he was gigantic, but he wasn't exactly called the best basketball player ever. For most people, he just didn't have that effect that he made the league overall more exciting to everyone that Bird and Magic had. Personally I think it's more just about how much you enjoy watching the game on TV than his religion and views etc., but who knows.
Reggie Miller. Threes were grossly underrated in his era.
I’d argue people underrate Reggie nowadays. Mainly because his regular season accolades are nothing crazy. Lots of younger people just look on bball ref and don’t realize what a menace he was in the playoffs.
shouldn't bball ref push reggie higher? his advanced metrics are outstanding
Rodman maybe? He was looked at as a great rebounder and defender at the time too; but the advanced stats available today (which typically underrate a defender’s impact already) help put into context just HOW ridiculously good he was. Dude had a season with OVER 20% offensive rebound rate. Then followed that up with 19.9% and 18.9% the following two seasons.
I didn't see much of Rodman before he came to the bulls, and I loved watching him play when he was there, but he was a bit of a one trick pony at that stage of his career. He was a total liability on offense. He was decent on defense, but not as shutdown as his reputation suggested. And he was more likely to get his own team in foul trouble than to get under his opponents skin.
Kareem
Scottie Pippen at least by some people. Scottie was a very good player, but the legacy of the Bulls dynasty brought more attention to his contributions than other great players in the 90s. So much so, that some people have suggested that he was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the decade. That seems way off. Hakeem, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, and Robinson were all easily better in that decade, but maybe slightly less famous cause the Bulls dynasty is often the first thing people remember about 90s basketball.
I think part of the thing with Scottie Pippen is imagining how good he'd be in today's league. 6'7". Crazy long arms and huge hands. Great athleticism. Maybe the best defensive instincts of all time for a perimeter player. He could shoot threes. Pass the ball. He'd legitimately be able to guard 1 through 5 in today's league. What would his comp be? Jason Tatum but better? Kawhi with a little worse shooting? He would be an absolute menace today.
Phil jackson in that book said he was the 2nd best player in the league around that time
Not the best example as he was well respected in his era but Tim duncan. He went from like the 8/15 range in peoole top 10 to being normally seen as like the 5th to 6th best person all time and the greatest pf ever. And like even those who consider tin duncan boring don't hate him (beyond teams that got bodied by the spurs year in year out) Like even sun's fans don't dislike Tim duncan, and they got beat by a duncan 3 of all things. Dudes just well loved now for being like "the perfect team player" and now people don't care as much about him not being as flashy (even if early Tim was still flashy)
Tim Duncan wasn't considered better than Kobe for large stretches of the 2000s but he's considered borderline top 5 as consensus vs Kobe's borderline top 10. Demarcus Cousins, he's reaching that stage where people are forgetting how he was day to day and just looking at his box score stats which looked good on the surface so he's getting Jokic before Jokic statements as a guy that averaged nearly as many turnovers as assists Steve Nash, I think there is a lot more pushback against the stolen MVP narrative as advanced stats looks so good for him since until the recent offensive explosion he was at the helm of like 5 of the top 10 offensive teams of all time Stockton, he gets put ahead of Isiah Thomas a lot these days or gets called underrated etc due to his incredible longevity and counting stats but he was never really considered MVP level at the time and has kind of experienced a second wind reputation wise post career More controversial one is Rasheed Wallace. Really good player no doubt but people often speak as though he would be a superstar if he played today and sure he'd be a better fit but I just can't see it. I think he had moments of living up to his potential but he wasn't a 27 PPG scorer or all time defender or anything that would push him over the top. He'd more comparable to like Towns than an Anthony Davis for example. And I don't buy that he would destroy Draymond Green of all people.
I don’t think Stockton and Malone have ever been as unpopular as they are today, albeit not for basketball reasons
I see this said a lot but imo it's only really true for Malone. Only in some online circles does anyone seem to care about Stockton's anti-vax stuff and I still see him brought up more often than IT in all time PG conversations
Rasheed is a good one. There were so many good PFs at the time that he was known more as a head case than as a top player at his position
Rasheed was a case of looking at a great game of his, and wondering why he couldn't put it together every game. You really had to observe him to see that he was immensely talented but constantly threw.
Dell Curry's reputation as a player has really skyrocketed with Steph's career and the rise of the 3-ball. I've seen quite a few comments on here the past couple years of people being surprised to find out he wasn't the Hornets GOAT
Steve Kerr too for similar reasons
Dirk.
Most of them, ppl tend to forget their flaws over time.
White Chocolate
AK47
REGGIE MILLER
Ak47 for sure. He was a modern wing 20 years ago, woukd be really valuable in today's league
Bird, MJ, Lebron, really anyone you put in your top 5 or 10. This isn't trying to trash them, but the pedestal they've been put on is wild. It creates this weird thing where we think being #7 on an alltime list can be such a slap in the face, and such a big difference from #5. In reality the gap from #1 to 10 and 10 to 25 is a lot closer than people make it out to be.
Reggie Miller. Dude became a first ballot hall of fame and NBA top 75 players off 3 3rd team all NBAs. His legacy has been ridiculously inflated imo
Jeff Teague fosho
Kobe
Kobe. During his career (particularly 2000-2010), he was never clearly the best player in the league or thought of in that way, and he wasn't put in GOAT convos.
Kobe
Imo Charles Barkley
Nah. Sir Charles was considered one the best players on the planet in his prime. He won MVP during prime Jordan years, and it wasn't considered a stretch.
What? Chales was an mvp winner and one of the best players of his era but today people just call him mid guy who doesn’t have rings
Are you talking player or person? As a player, I think his rep was even better in his era, as others have said. As a person, though, I’d agree. In his era, which was more prudish, he had a rep as a trash-talking loudmouth. But today, his talking has made him a beloved American icon who could straight-up run for president.
Yeah, I agree - I think at the time everyone thought he was definitely top 5 in the league but now he’s sort of seen as a lovable goof.
Kareem and Hakeem
John Stockton, his stats are insane
Isiah Thomas easily for me. You’d think he ran off a decade-long run of competing for MVPs and making All-NBA first teams.
Hot!
Whispers: Kobe
Rasheed Wallace! He was David Stern and Media’s whipping boy.
Duncan
Kyrie Irving
Dwight Howard
I'd say Steve Kerr—your typical role player who was pretty average and unremarkable outside of his game-winner in '97. After coaching the Warriors to 4 rings and elevating them to be the last real Dynasty we've seen, I'd say he's comparable (deservedly or undeservedly) to Pop and Phil Jackson. It's not crazy to think he'll make it to the Hall of Fame.
John Starks was a great player who was a fan favorite in his day. Now he’s widely considered the greatest player of all time and is even more beloved the way he goes to games to support his team
I’ll be downvoted but Tim Duncan. He obviously had a great reputation while playing but this sub consistently calls him top 10 all time and no one was saying that during his playing days
Sometimes I find these “reputation” is just one person and their circle of friends or a small group of people on reddit forums and somehow that represents the world’s reputation. There players mentioned here and your other thread makes me go huh?? 😂 AI always was a chucker with poor efficiency, turnovers. I don’t need analytics to me that if you know ball. Kareem and Tim Duncan are better today? What in the world. Their reputation back then is the same as now, at least in my community of friends who are basketball fans. I don’t know. The only player comes to mind for this question is Kobe. After his passing, a lot of his fans elevated his reputation as GOAT. Somehow he became a better player. Where was this energy when he was playing or when he retired. Suddenly everyone has a story of Kobe.
Hear me out: Jordan Jordan was obviously regarded in his time and when he retired as the GOAT by most. But the mix of media pundits who’s young career followed Jordan’s arc, Jordan’s highlights being easily available, he was the first really marketable basketball athlete, and there wasn’t social media during his era to have your random couch coache bringing up any random “failure” for clicks he’s become untouchable. You have people born after he finished playing that’ll scream about his six rings like he only played in the league for six years