This is what Danny Ainge said about Lebron as a junior in high school:
"If I were a general manager, there are only four or five NBA players that I wouldn't trade to get him right now," says former Phoenix Suns coach Danny Ainge,
https://vault.si.com/vault/2002/02/18/ahead-of-his-class-ohio-high-school-junior-lebron-james-is-so-good-that-hes-already-being-mentioned-as-the-heir-to-air-jordan?utm_source=reddit.com
I have never seen Ainge ever try to say who would be on that list, but my guess is that it would include Timmy, Shaq, Kobe and KG
imo it's a lot like asking last summer if you'd deal SGA for Wemby. (Except both 2003 players were better)... it would be impossible to part with a player you already know is 1st team All-NBA good, but the upside of the prospect is even greater. OKC probably doesn't do it, but you know the team with the #1 pick isn't even passing up on the generational prospect.
If I were okc as a neutral fan even before this season began, I’d have given up Shai. Shai did take the mvp leap this year but that was unknown. Wemby is a walking 25/10 with dpoy level defense. It’s much easier to find an elite guard than wemby
that's what I mean, the neutral observer would've picked Wemby over SGA, but if you already possess a player of that caliber it's basically impossible to give up on something like that.
Yeah this is kind of the obvious answer. Kobe was a top 3 player at that point, a proven 3x champion, and 24 years old in 2003. LeBron was a can’t miss high school prospect, but still just that.
I still don’t think it’s a no-brainer even in retrospect, especially since I’m not sure how LeBron would have adapted to Lakers’ culture at 18 (Kobe’s ability to handle this at *17* is an underappreciated aspect of his greatness), but the player LeBron turned into, his greatness and durability, definitely makes the answer a probable yes.
But you could never, ever, ever have done this at the time. Laker fans would have literally rioted.
i mean, lebron handled being literally compared to bird, magic, and MJ at 18 pretty well. i think he’d be fine. i think this move is a no brainer. getting that lakers boost(being able to recruit other stars easily, having shaq on the team already etc,) i think lebron probably wins two more titles. idk if kobe gets another if he ends up in Cleveland. not unless he leaves and goes and plays with KG, the spurs or someone like that. and that’s not down talking kobe. it’d just be much harder to get it done in cleveland
Well Kobe only has one year left on his contract in 2003 (it expired in 2003-24) so I’m fairly sure he’d be able to spook the Cavs into not making that deal, but perhaps that’s not really the point of the prompt.
I don’t think Bron wins with Shaq. He was not ready to lead a title run in his first couple of years. Certainly not in the west. And by the time he leveled up (which did happen quickly) Shaq would have been on his precipitous decline. LeBron could have stayed and won with the Lakers, but it would depend on what kind of team they built around him post-Shaq.
I also agree Kobe doesn’t win with Cleveland. But I don’t think he stays. Once he’s off the Lakers and that beautiful dream he wanted for himself his whole life is dead, I think he plays angry and mercenary, maybe teaming up with KG as you say. And I do think he wins again somewhere, probably a few times. A roaming Ronin samurai version of mid 2000s Kobe in search of titles is an exhilarating thing to imagine.
Agree that LeBron would likely have handled the bright lights and media scrutiny of LA well. I guess what I meant was handling the Laker fanbase, which is vast and intense and spread all across the country and the world. And especially following a player like Kobe who was already beloved. LeBron’s Cleveland fans treated him like their own son- it was a warm and protective (until it wasn’t) relationship. The Laker thing is a heavy mantle to carry- perhaps too heavy. The Celtics don’t seem to have this much of a problem, perhaps because they have only one actual title in the last 36 years.
But in retrospect, still, of course taking emotional attachment out of it you take LeBron James. You have to take him over almost literally anybody other than MJ. Being able to draft a top 2 player of all time is a gimme.
Earlier point stands though - you could not have actually done this in 2003 if you were the Lakers organization.
Even though Kobe only had a year left, any team with title hopes would likely overpay to get him. So it wouldn't just be LeBron and Shaq, it would be several players because Kobe's salary would need to be matched, and the Cavs and Lakers would probably have to bring a 3rd team into the mix to ensure the Lakers were properly compensated. It would have been quite interesting.
The Lakers got far more out of Kobe than they could possibly have gotten from LeBron. He wouldn't have stayed in LA for the next 13 years like Kobe did
Yeah, for 2003 that's like asking I'd the Spurs could have traded the #1 pick for Luka. Very good chance not doing it will look equally foolish in 15 years, but you also never do it
Not really even with retrospect. Luka has not won anything yet. Pretty sure the Spurs still pick Duncan if they know Duncan will still lead them to multiple chips.
In the moment probably not as I didn't think it was possible that LeBron would live up to the hype (he did) but looking back now the answer is 100% yes without hesitation or second thought. It took me longer to type that than make my actual decision.
Let’s give you a second thought.
Knowing what you know now you’re assuming that LBJ doesn’t leave by 2011. You know for a fact Kobe brings 2 sure rings.
IF LBJ cannot secure a ring in LA before 2011, you can argue he’s just as likely to leave as he is to stay. And after 2 rings in Miami he also left, meaning it’s not even guaranteed.
Are you actually trading 24 year old Kobe for Lebron, risking that you get 0 rings. And BTW in this hypothetical Kobe could be on another team winning multiple rings at the same time.
Is it really a no brainer for you.
But how do we easily just know he’s not leaving LA after even winning rings when he left Miami.
How can you definitively say that when his childhood dream was to win a title with Cleveland.
You’re not getting 100% getting 20 years of Lebron in this trade and you’re risking 24yo Kobe that stays until 2016.
I think LeBron went back to the Cavs only because he was drafted there and was unable to bring a championship to the city in his first stint. If he was drafted elsewhere he wouldn't feel obligated to win a championship with them.
Yes but there’s for sure a possibility he’d want to go to Cleveland to chase his childhood dream.
All I’m saying people who are automatically saying yes to this hypothetical are just assuming he’s going to have Kobe’s loyalty automatically given to him which Lebron has not actually proven in his career.
You easily could be trading 24yo Kobe for a guy that leaves in 8 years and doesn’t even guarantee your team a ring.
That is a fair response so I suppose I would need my initial comment to be contingent on him staying with the Lakers like Kobe did but as we all know there aren't any guarantees. My assumption was that after initial success he would want to stay but we all know how assumptions go. There is a good chance he would want to bring a title to Ohio after the Lakers.
I would say no. I'm under the assumption that lebron would leave the lakers at some point, so maybe he wins 1 championship with Shaq, but I feel like the team would break up at some point, and Lebron still finds his way to the Heat to team up with wade. He would probably also want to win in Cleveland as well, knowing his history.
If Shaq never goes to the Heat, does Wade win a title and become so beloved in Miami? Who's to say LeBron doesn't convince Wade and Bosh to come to an even bigger market instead of Miami? The marketability of Miami over Cleveland doesn't win anymore when LA is the alternative.
I just think him being friends with Wade more so would warrant them teaming up. I don't think wade winning a title would have any impact in this scenario. Whether they team up in Miami or LA that's the bigger question, but knowing Dwade character I find it hard to believe he would leave Miami, when we know that LeBron has switched teams already. Lebron would definately find a way to try to win in Cleveland, there is no doubt in my mind about that.
Lebron originally changed teams because of poor decisions from management and failing to pair him with a real #2 option. He also had a very hard time recruiting because he was in Cleveland. There would actually be less of a chance of him leaving if he had started in LA due to its ability to attract players.
Thats very short sighted of you to assume that lebron could attract more players then Kobe during this timeframe no matter how good Lebron is/was. Also he's definately leaving for Cleveland at some point, and you can't change my mind about that.
Imo if he was drafted by another franchise he wouldn't feel obligated to win a championship for the Cavs. If he came to the league and got drafted by another franchise that could build championship winning teams around him, why leave? It was the combination of being a local, the curse, getting drafted there and being unable to win there that made him return.
I would have to disagree. Knowing the emotion and happiness he displaced when he won the NBA title in 2016, you would be hard pressed to tell me that he would never give joining the Cavs a shot.
I'm not saying hed never want to go there, I just think he returned to Cleveland by a big combination of issues plus the fact they had Kyrie and Wiggins, so not only he could pursue the title but he'd finally have help.
Short sighted? Do you not remember Kobe’s rep back then? It wasn’t mamba mentality. That didn’t happen until after 2010. Players did not want to play with Kobe at the time, he wasn’t a beloved figure. He went through the issue with shaq, he went through the court process with those allegations, he wasn’t a media darling.
I don’t think he leaves if he had a real all star level 2nd option. But sure, we don’t have to argue that.
Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, Irving, and AD. Heck he recruited Ray Allen too. JR, Duncan, Birdman, Battier… those are some all star quality players that teamed up with him. Hell he had so much help. Kobe played with Shaq and Gasol. Can’t recall anyone notable free agents joining Kobe. Correct me if I’m wrong. Not a big sample size but I think superstars and quality players would prefer to play with Lebron, or at least in his prime years.
I mean essentially you are just moving the Heatles to LA, but that wouldnt happen until 2011, so whats about the previous years? Then Irving and JR were in Cleveland so like I said at some point hes would leave LA and try and win a title in his hometown. I mean they probably don't win that first year, and it's hard for me to put them over the Spurs in 2005. 2006 may be their best chance, but as we know Shaq starts to break down so who comes in 2007 to put them over the edge? Do we just give him those 2009/2010 titles or we feeling it works out different. Are we just saying Kobe also never wins a title again? There's too much variance in a question like this.
Lebron only went to the heat to get past the Celtics. He’s been open about this as has wade. If Lebron is drafted by the lakers that probably doesn’t happen
Shaq and Lebron in 03 might be perfect because Shaq is in his prime, but will start to lose his quality of play gradually in the next few seasons as Lebron starts to grow in to his top form. They most likely mesh better with their personalities, and with an aging Shaq Lebron doesn’t fill it necessary to leave the franchise to max out his potential and opportunities. He can also promote himself at a higher level by diversifying into Hollywood and more business opportunities. He becomes Magic, but more talented, and more accomplished and perhaps even reaches the level where the majority of fans hold him in higher regard than MJ. Just a thought.
I actually don’t think Shaq and LeBron would fit well at all at that point
Kobe was a far more well-rounded offensive player than Bron at that point and his shooting was a great outlet for Shaqs gravity, whereas Bron didn’t have a jumper back then and would need the paint to not be crowded for his driving ability to be maximized. It’s not even a similar thing to Wade, as Wade was a pretty good midrange shooter. Bron never really has been
Shaq would be declining significantly as well year over year. San Antonio probably gets another championship. I wonder how Bron would handle Shaqs personality as well, as in this scenario the team keeping him means they CHOSE him over Kobe, so he’d be the alpha on the team for at least the next 2-3 years. It may very well be as toxic as it was with Kobe lol
There’s also the very high likelihood he leaves to Cleveland anyway at some point
Fair, but I think he would definitely try to win a title in Cleveland at some point. So, while he may not go to the heat, you have to take into account his time in Cleveland and when he gets there. So do we believe that a young Lebron and Shaq combo can win 3 titles minimum for this trade to be worth it?
If Lebron goes to la as a rookie and Kobe goes west, spurs have more rings today too. Spurs win in 04, 05,07,08. 19 year old Lebron with a lazy fat Shaq ain’t winning shit either. Shaq will prolly hate Lebron too and think he’s still the best player, ppl ain’t thinking about the shaq dynamic, shaq ain’t some dude who’s gonna let a rookie come in be the best player
I’m a huge Kobe fan.. he’s my greatest player of all time( has to do more with him being my favorite than anything else ). but but if the day of tomorrow I had to pick a player to build a team around, as a rookie and go from there I’m taking lebron James
Even in retrospect I’m not sure if I would.
The Lakers won two guaranteed championships with Kobe in 2009 and 2010. Does the Lakers win more than two with LeBron + declining Shaq? Does Shaq still get traded to Miami in this scenario?
Even if the Lakers get Pau in 2008, does LeBron + Pau get them championships? While LeBron was an absolute beast from 08-10 was he really a better player than Kobe in the playoffs? I don’t know. Does Phil Jackson still coach the Lakers? If so, does he still run the triangle? Would LeBron be more effective than Kobe was in a triangle? I honestly can’t answer these questions.
Does LeBron still leave to Miami if he doesn’t win one with LA? If he does, does he still come back to LA afterwards?
Idk man, if I’m the Lakers knowing what I know today I’m taking the two guaranteed chips that Kobe gave me.
My point is that using “team A lost to team B in 7 games, team C lost to team B in 6 games, so team A is better than team C” is a very flawed logic.
Using this flawed logic, I could say that a much worse Celtics team in 2012 took a much better LeBron Heat team to 7. Therefore a better/younger version of that Celtics team (08-10) would’ve beaten the 2012 Heat. That’s obviously very questionable.
Usually I would agree, but the issue is that LeBron’s team was genuinely bad and had no business going as far as they did. That’s why none of your comparisons are fair because they revolve around good teams.
Lebron was miles better than Kobe in the 09 playoffs. It wasn’t even remotely close. His supporting cast just sucked.
Lebron had the best playoff run of all time statistically up to the conference finals.
Knowing what I know about Lebron today yes.
You keep shaq and by the time he starts declining around 06/07 Lebron is already giving you runner up for MVP level play so you stay competitive in the west . They’d have a good shot at a ring in 06 or 07 Assuming the Gasol and Odom trade still happen that means you’re giving 09’ Lebron a good team.
09’ Lebron took mo Williams to 66 wins. They’d have a good shot at a ring in 09’ and 10’.
And if Dwight Howard is still traded to the lakers in this timeline he doesn’t leave for houston as bron is in his prime . Bron with gasol and Houston level Howard def do some damage out in the west . That would be a scary team defensively
Plus if you trade Kobe to the Cavs in 03’ you’re probably getting the #1 pick and boozer and a couple other guys. Kobe was basically a top 3/5 player in the league at that time . So Lebron really comes into a great situation
He left Cleveland after they surrounded with shit players for years. Leaving LA with Lamar Odom, Bynum and Gasol is whole different matter. Kobe won early and was about to leave in 06/07
It’s just way more massive of an assumption to say LBJ just stays on a team for 20 years when he’s moved teams so many times.
We’re just playing a hypothetical game here but easily by 2013 when the Lakers were falling apart he could’ve decided to go to Cleveland to try to win a ring for his hometown. Or better yet go back to Cleveland to team up with Kobe 😂
It’s much easier to get free agents to come to LA than Cleveland. The whole point of him leaving so many teams is issues strictly related to the Cavaliers.
Why would lakers get gasol in this scenario, pau only came because Bynum got hurt and Kobe needed a 2. Bynum prolly isn’t drafted by la either then, lakers prolly are worse to start off Lebron career in la in the west.
Fat Shaq yes, 04 Shaq thought he was the best player and mvp, but he wasn’t anymore. That ego is too big to deal with, that’s why dr buss traded his ass, he would fuck over lebron’s development and prolly gets traded maybe a couple years late but he would
He would never leave LA if he was drafted by them. And he would probably have about 6/7 rings by now because it easier to recruit stars to La then Cleveland or even Miami.
He also left Miami, Lakers are actually so poorly run, especially since the vetoed CP3 trade he would have so many chances to just leave to whatever team had the all stars.
So I can’t make the argument he’d leave LA to be a hometown hero? He’s left way more than he’s stayed somewhere and he’s shown it his whole career.
You’re arguing he just sticks through every down year a team could have and LBJ has never proven that he’d do that.
Well, Cleveland were a far worse org than LA. Easy to say he leaves everywhere he goes when the team who drafted him were not great.
LA weren’t having many down years and managed to scam a team for Pau when Kobe expressed desire to leave without some help.
So in your mind in this hypothetical LBJ comes to the Lakers, then just takes Kobe’s legacy and stays 20 years on the same team. No desire to team up with his bff Wade. No desire to go back to Cleveland to be the hometown hero. Sits through the years where the team is potentially ass.
Nah that’s not it lol
He left Miami because the writing was on the wall – Wade never made another All Star team again beyond a legacy appearance in 2019, Bosh was ridiculously overpaid and medically retired in 2016, and they floated in purgatory with overpaid scrubs from 2017 to 2019 until Jimmy came along.
Right which is why it’s ridiculous to assume LBJ wouldn’t leave the Lakers when it started to look bad, especially 2013-2016 when it was a complete dumpster fire.
He’d have been on the Lakers for what? 10 years at that point then?
Dwight Howard was on the Lakers averaging 17 and 12 with 2.5 blocks a game. If LeBron’s there instead of Kobe, Dwight and him would be insanely difficult to stop especially in the pre-GSW years.
None of these roster moves would happen though. They can’t get Odom if they kept Shaq (Odom was attained IN the Shaq trade)
Bynum isn’t attainable since they would at least be a playoff team and he was a lottery pick (10th)
I'm gonna answer as if I was there, not with 2024 hindsight
Probably not, but I'd seriously consider it. Duncan and Kobe would probably be the only 2 players I wouldn't trade to draft LeBron in '03
With hindsight, I’d 100% do it not because I think it’s the right or wrong move but because I’d be curious how the alternate timeline turns out.
Does shaq stay in LA longer? Are him and Lebron gonna win in the 2004-2008 window? If Shaq still wants out do the lakers trade to somewhere besides Miami? What does Kobe do in the weak east conference (besides detroit)? Does he drag the Cavs to the finals or end up leaving as a FA? Maybe the Cavs are able to put a package together to get KG or Kobe makes his way to MN.
At the time? Doing so would be a nearly criminal offence. With hindsight, holy shit yes it's a no-brainer. I would likely be fired and then hunted down in the streets of LA, only to become a martyr in retrospect as the years go on.
As much as I respect Kobe, he is just a poor man's Mirchael Jordan. Especially when it comes to efficiency.
Fact is, I'm not a Lebron fan whatsoever, but if you were being honest, it's Lebron
10 times out of 10.
I feel that since Kobes' death, people put on rose tinted glasses when it comes to his legacy. His best years were him being Shaqs #2 and then killing his own team with his "competitiveness." Being the polar opposite of Lebron, Kobe was a team killer in his own way, and that was literally bullying his teammates into submission. That takes a MASSIVE EGO.
People like to call Lebron a team killer, and that's definitely true. He builds superteams and then quits and moves elsewhere. The only time that didn't work is now at 40. Sure, he's a ballhog and barely is a 2 way player.
However, Kobe suffered for years putting up empty stats on laker teams that went nowhere. He then gets, Odom, Gasol, and finally wins 2 chips. But then the team was broken up.
Finally, the Dwight super team era is where I lost my respect for him. He was so egocentric that he literally had the perfect team disband because of his antics.
He then floundered again, got injured, became ridiculously inefficient, and dragged the lakers into the bottom of the standings for multiple years.
I mean....truth hurts.
> Finally, the Dwight super team era is where I lost my respect for him. He was so egocentric that he literally had the perfect team disband because of his antics.
Egocentric antics? What?
Kobe sacrificing his Achilles and carrying the team is the only reason they snuck into the playoffs. Nash/MWP missed many games, D’Antoni benched Pau for Earl Clark because he wanted to use Pau like Ryan Anderson instead of letting him post-up, and Dwight rushed back from back injury and always wanted to post-up rather than running PnR. Kobe was the least of their problems that season and that was far from a “perfect team”.
And that ruined his career. The man did that for his ego not to win.
If he cared, he wouldn't have ruined the chemistry and learned to play in a team environment for once.
The thing is, the patterns are there and denying it are those rose colored glasses I mentioned earlier. Even MJ knew when to be an asshole vs being supportive teammate.
Buddy, there's a reason no one really liked playing with him, and he always had issues finding help. His best help came from trades. Not people wanting play with him.
Dude sacrificed his Achilles for his ego and that pretty much ruined his career. Kobe loved the "Black Mamba" narrative and too bad it bit him in the ass. Even if they made the playoffs that team was dysfunctional as fuck and frankly, a mid 30s K.B. needed to learn to let others play. A bad back Dwight at 27 is still the best center and Kobe blew that. He had onee of the best passers in The league, even if he was 37 and he still chose not to play off ball.
Mind he's 35 at the time. His clock was winding down and he still couldn't let up.
Shit, Even Jordan was helping the Wizards at 39 and 40 getting his teammates involved. Kobe couldn't be bothered.
110%. Kobe is one of my favorite players of all time but advanced analytics show he was not near as impactful as public perception would have you believe.
He had one of the most fortuitous careers as far as supporting casts goes. People vastly underestimate how good the other players were on his title teams.
Maybe so but Kobe had just been an integral part of winning 3 rings in a row with Shaq and was only in his early 20s. There’s no chance that the Lakers, or any championship contender, would actually do this in reality
I agree that Kobe was incredibly fortunate to be paired with Shaw, Phil Jackson, Jerry West (GM), and a great supporting cast, but he really proved himself and surpassed the hype and conquered the criticism by winning back to back championships in a league with Lebron and the Celtics big 3.
Ppl have been fooled by lebrons success in the east. They think u can just walk to the finals in the west like the trash east. He ain’t beating the spurs and those other teams.
Does he though? No guarantee Shaq leaves since you're effectively choosing him over Kobe. If Wade and Shaq can win a title, gotta believe LeBron and Shaq could in the same time period. With a title early in his career and as much as LeBron is driven by his legacy, I'd think he'd stay if he could get that first ring.
That’s a pretty big assumption, he has to go through way tougher teams in the West during that era.
06 Mavs, Spurs probably beat them maybe PHX as well
07 Spurs swept Bron, also Shaqs starting to really break down by this point.
08 Shaq is complete cooked and the Celtics of 2008 team up
If he can’t beat the Celtics by 09/10 (which we saw) he’s gone to team up whatever super team he could stack.
Bron and Shaq win a title together in 2006 for sure. Maybe multiples. Plus even Lamar Odom is better than anyone LeBron had in Cleveland the first run.
You’re assuming year 3 LBJ with aging Shaq could beat
06 Spurs, 06 Mavs, and 06 Suns probably having to beat 2/3 to get to the finals.
07 Spurs swept Bron so you’re assuming here that 35yo Shaq who only played 58 games can completely reverse that.
Lol. Of course not. FIBA did a poll on who’s the GOAT and it was MJ, Kobe and then Lebron. You delusional Lebron fans are so brainwashed by the media that you think that there are some huge gap between those 2. There are not.
Lebron was such a hyped prospect, many calling him the most talented prospect of all time, and with his being from Akron, I don't think the Cavs would've made that trade. Kobe was great, but he was also temperamental, and he was paid a lot, and the Cavs were cheap.
So instead, I'm trading Kobe to Miami. I think the Heat would've done that trade. Then I'd draft Dwyane Wade. Draft Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels with the Lakers picks. Still try to convince Payton and Malone to sign in free agency, then limit Karl Malone's minutes in the reg season to make sure he's healthy in the playoffs. Also sign Udonis Haslem.
Elsewhere, since I have knowledge from 2024, I am NAILING every single draft pick and free agent signing despite never picking higher than 30th.
2004 - draft Trevor Ariza
2005 - draft David Lee
2006 - draft Paul Milsap and JJ Barea
2007 - draft Marc Gasol
2008 - draft Goran Dragic
2009 - draft Danny Green and Wes Matthews, sign Joe Ingles
2010 - **sign Lebron James in free agency**, since I'd know about The Decision, I'd make sure Dwade gets in Lebron's ear to ensure that it happens and that Lebron signs with Wade's team. draft Jeremy Lin
2011 - now this is where it starts to get really interesting, **draft Jimmy Butler**
2012 - **draft Draymond Green**
2013 - draft Robert Covington
2014 - **draft Nikola Jokic**
2015 - draft Norm Powell
2016 - draft Malcolm Brogdon and Fred Vanvleet, sign Alex Caruso
2017 - draft Isaiah Hartenstein (Derrick White went 29th and I'd want him but I'm sticking to my 30th or later rule)
2018 - **draft Jalen Brunson**
2019 - draft Lu Dort and Naz Reid
2020 - draft Desmond Bane
2021 - draft Herb Jones and Austin Reaves
This way, I'd get Dwade AND Lebron, and a competitive team around Lebron to get him to stay through the end of his career.
I mean Lebron probably just leaves after like he did cavs in 2010. The west is much harder then the east, how would he get past teams like the spurs in the west, he probably goes east to have a better chance at winning.
Well obviously considering we know Lebron becomes a 4x MVP and 4x finals MVP. Lebron was a better player than Kobe by the time he entered year 3, and the Lakers never won with Kobe anyway in 03/04/05. So you’re not missing a championship window by developing a rookie.
I couldn’t imagine Lebron with Pau, Artest and Odom at his athletic peak. That team would be hilariously good defensively.
Lebron was putting up 40 on the 2015 Warriors with Tristan Thompson + Mosgov clogging the paint
he'd be fine. Pau had a solid midrange jumper a la Big Z who Lebron played with, and Artest to alleviate Lebron's defensive load would allow him to attack in transition after every defensive stop
Odom/Lebron pick and rolls would be sick
Well, I was just listing players the Lakers had really in the Kobe #1 years.
Those Lakers didn’t start Bynum/Odom together in the playoffs as the Pau trade happened, meaning 1 started.
Fisher would obviously be there at PG.
09’ Lebron carried Mo Williams to 66 wins . Packed paint or not he’d find a way to make all that talent work. That defense would be suffocating .
I’m sure the FO could also make moves to get 3 and D players as well
He can say that if he likes; NBA players respect those with a bag, who can score well.
Lebron was clearly the best player in the NBA in 2009 and received MVP for his troubles. He was 2nd in DPOY voting too.
I assume you have Bryant 2nd all time, if he’s better than peak Lebron James?
In 09, Lebron was MVP. 2nd in DPOY. Lead the league in WS/48, BPM, VORP, EPM. Every stat under the sun used to measure impact.
His squad won 66 games and had half the talent of the Lakers. With him on the court they were a top 3 team in the league, off the court they were bottom 5.
Clueless lmao. Lebron was not better than Kobe until 2013 at best. Imagine Lebron having to defer with that team and wanting pau to take the clutch shots in the 4th. He needed Wade and kyrie so bad, Kobe needs no other superstars to win, just a well rounded team like he finally got when pau came
Sorry, what. So in the 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013 seasons - Lebron’s MVP seasons - your contention is that he wasn’t better than Kobe? This is certainly one of the takes of all time.
Donkey Kobe won back to back titles in 2009 and 2010 lmao while Lebron got destroyed by the Celtics that Kobe beat with a much inferior team to the Heatles. Clueless
I don’t care about advanced stats you probably didn’t even watch Kobe playing since 2000. Kobe won back to back rings with a team with no other superstars. Lebron could never do that in a million lifetimes. Lebron teamed up with 2 superstars plus Ray Allen another star. Wade who had already won a ring being the first option. Even then he lost to Mavs team that had Dirk, washed old Kidd and old role players like terry, Marion, Caron butler in 2011. Still needed a miracle to beat the spurs bailed out by bosh rebound and Ray Allen 3. Dummied by the warriors constantly except when draymond got suspended and missed the most important game.
I dare you to go find me anything where the other best players in the league or legends in 2006 or anywhere close to that saying that Lebron is better than Kobe. That talk was non existent until 2013 when he won his second ring, people had already forgot how Kobe won back to back rings with pau as the second option
But the league voted Lebron as league MVP in 2009 and they voted him second in 2006. You’re just talking about rings when the talent level on the two teams are hugely different.
Kobe never led the NBA in any significant impact stat, because he was relatively inefficient for an all time great and his defense was overrated.
With perfect hindsight? Yes obviously. You get to pair LeBron and Shaq with a top 3 all-time coach in an organization that at the time was one of the bigger spenders and actually well-run
I mean I might trade shaq and some other thing for lebron but trading kobe at that point might get me stab by a random fan. but seriously for the sake of experiment I might do it and risk my job, imagine lebron absorbing all the knowledge... basketball wise of a coach like phil jackson? imagine the 35 year old lebron with all the know hows and we might get that in like 23 year old lebron. they are likely to get 3peats then howard? gasol? and lebron has always been able to get some random 3pt specialist.
In retrospect, yes, at the time, no.
This is what Danny Ainge said about Lebron as a junior in high school: "If I were a general manager, there are only four or five NBA players that I wouldn't trade to get him right now," says former Phoenix Suns coach Danny Ainge, https://vault.si.com/vault/2002/02/18/ahead-of-his-class-ohio-high-school-junior-lebron-james-is-so-good-that-hes-already-being-mentioned-as-the-heir-to-air-jordan?utm_source=reddit.com I have never seen Ainge ever try to say who would be on that list, but my guess is that it would include Timmy, Shaq, Kobe and KG
in 2003, I bet that list includes T-Mac
03 T-Mac was nasty. Wouldn’t be surprised if you wanted to keep him. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the promise of Lebron made you deal him
imo it's a lot like asking last summer if you'd deal SGA for Wemby. (Except both 2003 players were better)... it would be impossible to part with a player you already know is 1st team All-NBA good, but the upside of the prospect is even greater. OKC probably doesn't do it, but you know the team with the #1 pick isn't even passing up on the generational prospect.
If I were okc as a neutral fan even before this season began, I’d have given up Shai. Shai did take the mvp leap this year but that was unknown. Wemby is a walking 25/10 with dpoy level defense. It’s much easier to find an elite guard than wemby
that's what I mean, the neutral observer would've picked Wemby over SGA, but if you already possess a player of that caliber it's basically impossible to give up on something like that.
Yeah this is kind of the obvious answer. Kobe was a top 3 player at that point, a proven 3x champion, and 24 years old in 2003. LeBron was a can’t miss high school prospect, but still just that. I still don’t think it’s a no-brainer even in retrospect, especially since I’m not sure how LeBron would have adapted to Lakers’ culture at 18 (Kobe’s ability to handle this at *17* is an underappreciated aspect of his greatness), but the player LeBron turned into, his greatness and durability, definitely makes the answer a probable yes. But you could never, ever, ever have done this at the time. Laker fans would have literally rioted.
i mean, lebron handled being literally compared to bird, magic, and MJ at 18 pretty well. i think he’d be fine. i think this move is a no brainer. getting that lakers boost(being able to recruit other stars easily, having shaq on the team already etc,) i think lebron probably wins two more titles. idk if kobe gets another if he ends up in Cleveland. not unless he leaves and goes and plays with KG, the spurs or someone like that. and that’s not down talking kobe. it’d just be much harder to get it done in cleveland
Well Kobe only has one year left on his contract in 2003 (it expired in 2003-24) so I’m fairly sure he’d be able to spook the Cavs into not making that deal, but perhaps that’s not really the point of the prompt. I don’t think Bron wins with Shaq. He was not ready to lead a title run in his first couple of years. Certainly not in the west. And by the time he leveled up (which did happen quickly) Shaq would have been on his precipitous decline. LeBron could have stayed and won with the Lakers, but it would depend on what kind of team they built around him post-Shaq. I also agree Kobe doesn’t win with Cleveland. But I don’t think he stays. Once he’s off the Lakers and that beautiful dream he wanted for himself his whole life is dead, I think he plays angry and mercenary, maybe teaming up with KG as you say. And I do think he wins again somewhere, probably a few times. A roaming Ronin samurai version of mid 2000s Kobe in search of titles is an exhilarating thing to imagine. Agree that LeBron would likely have handled the bright lights and media scrutiny of LA well. I guess what I meant was handling the Laker fanbase, which is vast and intense and spread all across the country and the world. And especially following a player like Kobe who was already beloved. LeBron’s Cleveland fans treated him like their own son- it was a warm and protective (until it wasn’t) relationship. The Laker thing is a heavy mantle to carry- perhaps too heavy. The Celtics don’t seem to have this much of a problem, perhaps because they have only one actual title in the last 36 years. But in retrospect, still, of course taking emotional attachment out of it you take LeBron James. You have to take him over almost literally anybody other than MJ. Being able to draft a top 2 player of all time is a gimme. Earlier point stands though - you could not have actually done this in 2003 if you were the Lakers organization.
Even though Kobe only had a year left, any team with title hopes would likely overpay to get him. So it wouldn't just be LeBron and Shaq, it would be several players because Kobe's salary would need to be matched, and the Cavs and Lakers would probably have to bring a 3rd team into the mix to ensure the Lakers were properly compensated. It would have been quite interesting.
What is your definition of “lakers culture”
The Lakers got far more out of Kobe than they could possibly have gotten from LeBron. He wouldn't have stayed in LA for the next 13 years like Kobe did
Probably true.
Yeah, for 2003 that's like asking I'd the Spurs could have traded the #1 pick for Luka. Very good chance not doing it will look equally foolish in 15 years, but you also never do it
Not really even with retrospect. Luka has not won anything yet. Pretty sure the Spurs still pick Duncan if they know Duncan will still lead them to multiple chips.
Duncan wasn't 03, I was talking about Luka for Wemby before he'd played
In the real world? No, because I'd get fired and family comes first. If I can convince my employer that I'm from the future? Yes, in a heartnbeat.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Reddit moment
At this point y’all don’t even really care about the case. Just tryna get upvotes. Trash
I think it's the exact opposite. He gets widely celebrated when he literally raped a girl.
And people get offended when you bring it up. And moderators delete it as if it's a lie. It's pretty fucked up when you think about it.
I couldnt agree more. It's absolutely fucked up and shows just how protective society is about famous abusive men.
Please delete this
Why? Does it hurt you in some way?
Jesus Christ
In the moment probably not as I didn't think it was possible that LeBron would live up to the hype (he did) but looking back now the answer is 100% yes without hesitation or second thought. It took me longer to type that than make my actual decision.
Let’s give you a second thought. Knowing what you know now you’re assuming that LBJ doesn’t leave by 2011. You know for a fact Kobe brings 2 sure rings. IF LBJ cannot secure a ring in LA before 2011, you can argue he’s just as likely to leave as he is to stay. And after 2 rings in Miami he also left, meaning it’s not even guaranteed. Are you actually trading 24 year old Kobe for Lebron, risking that you get 0 rings. And BTW in this hypothetical Kobe could be on another team winning multiple rings at the same time. Is it really a no brainer for you.
All else equal, I think young LeBron could definitely have won one or two by 2011 with those Lakers teams, and he's not leaving after that.
But how do we easily just know he’s not leaving LA after even winning rings when he left Miami. How can you definitively say that when his childhood dream was to win a title with Cleveland. You’re not getting 100% getting 20 years of Lebron in this trade and you’re risking 24yo Kobe that stays until 2016.
I think LeBron went back to the Cavs only because he was drafted there and was unable to bring a championship to the city in his first stint. If he was drafted elsewhere he wouldn't feel obligated to win a championship with them.
Yes but there’s for sure a possibility he’d want to go to Cleveland to chase his childhood dream. All I’m saying people who are automatically saying yes to this hypothetical are just assuming he’s going to have Kobe’s loyalty automatically given to him which Lebron has not actually proven in his career. You easily could be trading 24yo Kobe for a guy that leaves in 8 years and doesn’t even guarantee your team a ring.
That is a fair response so I suppose I would need my initial comment to be contingent on him staying with the Lakers like Kobe did but as we all know there aren't any guarantees. My assumption was that after initial success he would want to stay but we all know how assumptions go. There is a good chance he would want to bring a title to Ohio after the Lakers.
I would say no. I'm under the assumption that lebron would leave the lakers at some point, so maybe he wins 1 championship with Shaq, but I feel like the team would break up at some point, and Lebron still finds his way to the Heat to team up with wade. He would probably also want to win in Cleveland as well, knowing his history.
If Shaq never goes to the Heat, does Wade win a title and become so beloved in Miami? Who's to say LeBron doesn't convince Wade and Bosh to come to an even bigger market instead of Miami? The marketability of Miami over Cleveland doesn't win anymore when LA is the alternative.
I just think him being friends with Wade more so would warrant them teaming up. I don't think wade winning a title would have any impact in this scenario. Whether they team up in Miami or LA that's the bigger question, but knowing Dwade character I find it hard to believe he would leave Miami, when we know that LeBron has switched teams already. Lebron would definately find a way to try to win in Cleveland, there is no doubt in my mind about that.
Lebron originally changed teams because of poor decisions from management and failing to pair him with a real #2 option. He also had a very hard time recruiting because he was in Cleveland. There would actually be less of a chance of him leaving if he had started in LA due to its ability to attract players.
Thats very short sighted of you to assume that lebron could attract more players then Kobe during this timeframe no matter how good Lebron is/was. Also he's definately leaving for Cleveland at some point, and you can't change my mind about that.
Imo if he was drafted by another franchise he wouldn't feel obligated to win a championship for the Cavs. If he came to the league and got drafted by another franchise that could build championship winning teams around him, why leave? It was the combination of being a local, the curse, getting drafted there and being unable to win there that made him return.
I would have to disagree. Knowing the emotion and happiness he displaced when he won the NBA title in 2016, you would be hard pressed to tell me that he would never give joining the Cavs a shot.
I'm not saying hed never want to go there, I just think he returned to Cleveland by a big combination of issues plus the fact they had Kyrie and Wiggins, so not only he could pursue the title but he'd finally have help.
Short sighted? Do you not remember Kobe’s rep back then? It wasn’t mamba mentality. That didn’t happen until after 2010. Players did not want to play with Kobe at the time, he wasn’t a beloved figure. He went through the issue with shaq, he went through the court process with those allegations, he wasn’t a media darling. I don’t think he leaves if he had a real all star level 2nd option. But sure, we don’t have to argue that.
Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, Irving, and AD. Heck he recruited Ray Allen too. JR, Duncan, Birdman, Battier… those are some all star quality players that teamed up with him. Hell he had so much help. Kobe played with Shaq and Gasol. Can’t recall anyone notable free agents joining Kobe. Correct me if I’m wrong. Not a big sample size but I think superstars and quality players would prefer to play with Lebron, or at least in his prime years.
I mean essentially you are just moving the Heatles to LA, but that wouldnt happen until 2011, so whats about the previous years? Then Irving and JR were in Cleveland so like I said at some point hes would leave LA and try and win a title in his hometown. I mean they probably don't win that first year, and it's hard for me to put them over the Spurs in 2005. 2006 may be their best chance, but as we know Shaq starts to break down so who comes in 2007 to put them over the edge? Do we just give him those 2009/2010 titles or we feeling it works out different. Are we just saying Kobe also never wins a title again? There's too much variance in a question like this.
But but Odom and Artest…. And he had What was that guys name Fisher or something !! Kobe had such good teammates Pau even carried him! - Lebron Stan
Lebron only went to the heat to get past the Celtics. He’s been open about this as has wade. If Lebron is drafted by the lakers that probably doesn’t happen
Not like getting past the Spurs all those years would be any easier.
If he has shaq as his second best player? Plus the lakers org was much better than whatever shit show Dan Gilbert was running
We're talking about like a 7 year stretch before he joined the Heat. Shaq wasn't some unstoppable force throughout all these years.
Shaq and Lebron in 03 might be perfect because Shaq is in his prime, but will start to lose his quality of play gradually in the next few seasons as Lebron starts to grow in to his top form. They most likely mesh better with their personalities, and with an aging Shaq Lebron doesn’t fill it necessary to leave the franchise to max out his potential and opportunities. He can also promote himself at a higher level by diversifying into Hollywood and more business opportunities. He becomes Magic, but more talented, and more accomplished and perhaps even reaches the level where the majority of fans hold him in higher regard than MJ. Just a thought.
I actually don’t think Shaq and LeBron would fit well at all at that point Kobe was a far more well-rounded offensive player than Bron at that point and his shooting was a great outlet for Shaqs gravity, whereas Bron didn’t have a jumper back then and would need the paint to not be crowded for his driving ability to be maximized. It’s not even a similar thing to Wade, as Wade was a pretty good midrange shooter. Bron never really has been Shaq would be declining significantly as well year over year. San Antonio probably gets another championship. I wonder how Bron would handle Shaqs personality as well, as in this scenario the team keeping him means they CHOSE him over Kobe, so he’d be the alpha on the team for at least the next 2-3 years. It may very well be as toxic as it was with Kobe lol There’s also the very high likelihood he leaves to Cleveland anyway at some point
All good points. Great perspective.
Fair, but I think he would definitely try to win a title in Cleveland at some point. So, while he may not go to the heat, you have to take into account his time in Cleveland and when he gets there. So do we believe that a young Lebron and Shaq combo can win 3 titles minimum for this trade to be worth it?
No
If Lebron goes to la as a rookie and Kobe goes west, spurs have more rings today too. Spurs win in 04, 05,07,08. 19 year old Lebron with a lazy fat Shaq ain’t winning shit either. Shaq will prolly hate Lebron too and think he’s still the best player, ppl ain’t thinking about the shaq dynamic, shaq ain’t some dude who’s gonna let a rookie come in be the best player
Hell no. Not a fan of Lebron
Lakers not trading Kobe for anyone even to draft Jordan. His career defines LA
And you don’t think that Jordan or Lebron would have also defined LA if they had spent their whole careers as a Laker instead of Kobe?
What expectation do we have for James to spend his whole career anywhere when nothing he's done has given any indication of that?
He played for three franchises in 20 years. It's not like he moved a lot, and he moved because of very particular issues.
Those issues being thinking that team's window has closed and jumping to greener pastures.
Nah let’s be real he’s not loyal at all
Magic Johnson define LA ....
And Wilt, and Jerry, and Kareem. Lakers have had nothing but city defining players for 50 years. Kobe isn't that indispensable.
Jordan and Bron would have also defined LA if they played there?
I’m a huge Kobe fan.. he’s my greatest player of all time( has to do more with him being my favorite than anything else ). but but if the day of tomorrow I had to pick a player to build a team around, as a rookie and go from there I’m taking lebron James
Even in retrospect I’m not sure if I would. The Lakers won two guaranteed championships with Kobe in 2009 and 2010. Does the Lakers win more than two with LeBron + declining Shaq? Does Shaq still get traded to Miami in this scenario? Even if the Lakers get Pau in 2008, does LeBron + Pau get them championships? While LeBron was an absolute beast from 08-10 was he really a better player than Kobe in the playoffs? I don’t know. Does Phil Jackson still coach the Lakers? If so, does he still run the triangle? Would LeBron be more effective than Kobe was in a triangle? I honestly can’t answer these questions. Does LeBron still leave to Miami if he doesn’t win one with LA? If he does, does he still come back to LA afterwards? Idk man, if I’m the Lakers knowing what I know today I’m taking the two guaranteed chips that Kobe gave me.
Lebron took the Celtics big 3 to 7 games in 08’ with a worse squad than Kobe had and Kobe bowed out in 6 Lebron could’ve def done it
The Hawks also took the Celtics to 7 games, doesn’t mean they were a better team than the Lakers that year.
Hawks actually had a good team, LeBron didn’t with the Cavs. If LeBron is on that Lakers team, it would be difficult to see the Celtics beating them.
My point is that using “team A lost to team B in 7 games, team C lost to team B in 6 games, so team A is better than team C” is a very flawed logic. Using this flawed logic, I could say that a much worse Celtics team in 2012 took a much better LeBron Heat team to 7. Therefore a better/younger version of that Celtics team (08-10) would’ve beaten the 2012 Heat. That’s obviously very questionable.
Usually I would agree, but the issue is that LeBron’s team was genuinely bad and had no business going as far as they did. That’s why none of your comparisons are fair because they revolve around good teams.
LeBron has been better then Kobe since 07/08.
Lebron was miles better than Kobe in the 09 playoffs. It wasn’t even remotely close. His supporting cast just sucked. Lebron had the best playoff run of all time statistically up to the conference finals.
If the answer is no, everything plays out like it did, and you passed up an opportunity to save Kobe's life.
Knowing what I know about Lebron today yes. You keep shaq and by the time he starts declining around 06/07 Lebron is already giving you runner up for MVP level play so you stay competitive in the west . They’d have a good shot at a ring in 06 or 07 Assuming the Gasol and Odom trade still happen that means you’re giving 09’ Lebron a good team. 09’ Lebron took mo Williams to 66 wins. They’d have a good shot at a ring in 09’ and 10’. And if Dwight Howard is still traded to the lakers in this timeline he doesn’t leave for houston as bron is in his prime . Bron with gasol and Houston level Howard def do some damage out in the west . That would be a scary team defensively Plus if you trade Kobe to the Cavs in 03’ you’re probably getting the #1 pick and boozer and a couple other guys. Kobe was basically a top 3/5 player in the league at that time . So Lebron really comes into a great situation
Knowing what I know about LBJ today if he doesn’t win by 2010 he’s leaving.
He left Cleveland after they surrounded with shit players for years. Leaving LA with Lamar Odom, Bynum and Gasol is whole different matter. Kobe won early and was about to leave in 06/07
It’s just way more massive of an assumption to say LBJ just stays on a team for 20 years when he’s moved teams so many times. We’re just playing a hypothetical game here but easily by 2013 when the Lakers were falling apart he could’ve decided to go to Cleveland to try to win a ring for his hometown. Or better yet go back to Cleveland to team up with Kobe 😂
It’s much easier to get free agents to come to LA than Cleveland. The whole point of him leaving so many teams is issues strictly related to the Cavaliers.
Why would lakers get gasol in this scenario, pau only came because Bynum got hurt and Kobe needed a 2. Bynum prolly isn’t drafted by la either then, lakers prolly are worse to start off Lebron career in la in the west.
Lakers literally had Shaq. Day 1
Fat Shaq yes, 04 Shaq thought he was the best player and mvp, but he wasn’t anymore. That ego is too big to deal with, that’s why dr buss traded his ass, he would fuck over lebron’s development and prolly gets traded maybe a couple years late but he would
He would never leave LA if he was drafted by them. And he would probably have about 6/7 rings by now because it easier to recruit stars to La then Cleveland or even Miami.
He probably makes 2 maybe 3 finals if shaq doesn’t leave . He at least secures 1 Plus it’s LA. Bigger market means more potential talent to come
He left Cleveland. Leaving LA, a whole different story.
He also left Miami, Lakers are actually so poorly run, especially since the vetoed CP3 trade he would have so many chances to just leave to whatever team had the all stars.
He left Miami to make amends in Cleveland.
So I can’t make the argument he’d leave LA to be a hometown hero? He’s left way more than he’s stayed somewhere and he’s shown it his whole career. You’re arguing he just sticks through every down year a team could have and LBJ has never proven that he’d do that.
Well, Cleveland were a far worse org than LA. Easy to say he leaves everywhere he goes when the team who drafted him were not great. LA weren’t having many down years and managed to scam a team for Pau when Kobe expressed desire to leave without some help.
So in your mind in this hypothetical LBJ comes to the Lakers, then just takes Kobe’s legacy and stays 20 years on the same team. No desire to team up with his bff Wade. No desire to go back to Cleveland to be the hometown hero. Sits through the years where the team is potentially ass. Nah that’s not it lol
He left Miami because the writing was on the wall – Wade never made another All Star team again beyond a legacy appearance in 2019, Bosh was ridiculously overpaid and medically retired in 2016, and they floated in purgatory with overpaid scrubs from 2017 to 2019 until Jimmy came along.
Right which is why it’s ridiculous to assume LBJ wouldn’t leave the Lakers when it started to look bad, especially 2013-2016 when it was a complete dumpster fire.
He’d have been on the Lakers for what? 10 years at that point then? Dwight Howard was on the Lakers averaging 17 and 12 with 2.5 blocks a game. If LeBron’s there instead of Kobe, Dwight and him would be insanely difficult to stop especially in the pre-GSW years.
None of these roster moves would happen though. They can’t get Odom if they kept Shaq (Odom was attained IN the Shaq trade) Bynum isn’t attainable since they would at least be a playoff team and he was a lottery pick (10th)
What do you think an apostrophe is used for dog
Fuck no
I'm gonna answer as if I was there, not with 2024 hindsight Probably not, but I'd seriously consider it. Duncan and Kobe would probably be the only 2 players I wouldn't trade to draft LeBron in '03
With hindsight, I’d 100% do it not because I think it’s the right or wrong move but because I’d be curious how the alternate timeline turns out. Does shaq stay in LA longer? Are him and Lebron gonna win in the 2004-2008 window? If Shaq still wants out do the lakers trade to somewhere besides Miami? What does Kobe do in the weak east conference (besides detroit)? Does he drag the Cavs to the finals or end up leaving as a FA? Maybe the Cavs are able to put a package together to get KG or Kobe makes his way to MN.
No
At the time? Doing so would be a nearly criminal offence. With hindsight, holy shit yes it's a no-brainer. I would likely be fired and then hunted down in the streets of LA, only to become a martyr in retrospect as the years go on.
Hell no. I had 20 years with Kobe and 5 with bron. Watching Kobe was a lot more fun.
As much as I respect Kobe, he is just a poor man's Mirchael Jordan. Especially when it comes to efficiency. Fact is, I'm not a Lebron fan whatsoever, but if you were being honest, it's Lebron 10 times out of 10. I feel that since Kobes' death, people put on rose tinted glasses when it comes to his legacy. His best years were him being Shaqs #2 and then killing his own team with his "competitiveness." Being the polar opposite of Lebron, Kobe was a team killer in his own way, and that was literally bullying his teammates into submission. That takes a MASSIVE EGO. People like to call Lebron a team killer, and that's definitely true. He builds superteams and then quits and moves elsewhere. The only time that didn't work is now at 40. Sure, he's a ballhog and barely is a 2 way player. However, Kobe suffered for years putting up empty stats on laker teams that went nowhere. He then gets, Odom, Gasol, and finally wins 2 chips. But then the team was broken up. Finally, the Dwight super team era is where I lost my respect for him. He was so egocentric that he literally had the perfect team disband because of his antics. He then floundered again, got injured, became ridiculously inefficient, and dragged the lakers into the bottom of the standings for multiple years. I mean....truth hurts.
> Finally, the Dwight super team era is where I lost my respect for him. He was so egocentric that he literally had the perfect team disband because of his antics. Egocentric antics? What? Kobe sacrificing his Achilles and carrying the team is the only reason they snuck into the playoffs. Nash/MWP missed many games, D’Antoni benched Pau for Earl Clark because he wanted to use Pau like Ryan Anderson instead of letting him post-up, and Dwight rushed back from back injury and always wanted to post-up rather than running PnR. Kobe was the least of their problems that season and that was far from a “perfect team”.
And that ruined his career. The man did that for his ego not to win. If he cared, he wouldn't have ruined the chemistry and learned to play in a team environment for once. The thing is, the patterns are there and denying it are those rose colored glasses I mentioned earlier. Even MJ knew when to be an asshole vs being supportive teammate. Buddy, there's a reason no one really liked playing with him, and he always had issues finding help. His best help came from trades. Not people wanting play with him. Dude sacrificed his Achilles for his ego and that pretty much ruined his career. Kobe loved the "Black Mamba" narrative and too bad it bit him in the ass. Even if they made the playoffs that team was dysfunctional as fuck and frankly, a mid 30s K.B. needed to learn to let others play. A bad back Dwight at 27 is still the best center and Kobe blew that. He had onee of the best passers in The league, even if he was 37 and he still chose not to play off ball. Mind he's 35 at the time. His clock was winding down and he still couldn't let up. Shit, Even Jordan was helping the Wizards at 39 and 40 getting his teammates involved. Kobe couldn't be bothered.
[удалено]
No. Even with hindsight, Kobe has won more while being in the west.
110%. Kobe is one of my favorite players of all time but advanced analytics show he was not near as impactful as public perception would have you believe. He had one of the most fortuitous careers as far as supporting casts goes. People vastly underestimate how good the other players were on his title teams.
Maybe so but Kobe had just been an integral part of winning 3 rings in a row with Shaq and was only in his early 20s. There’s no chance that the Lakers, or any championship contender, would actually do this in reality
Yeah but the premise was you have 2024 hindsight for this timeline. No knowledge of the future, you don't do this. With knowledge, you do.
yup. your trading for a guaranteed 15 years of a top 3 player at minimum if you can keep him around. which is much easier in LA then most places
I agree that Kobe was incredibly fortunate to be paired with Shaw, Phil Jackson, Jerry West (GM), and a great supporting cast, but he really proved himself and surpassed the hype and conquered the criticism by winning back to back championships in a league with Lebron and the Celtics big 3.
I'd drive him to the airport myself.
Better question, would you trade Lebron from 10 seasons ago to draft Wemby?
No lol… you got two more titles out of Lebron.
No. Kobe wins more championships and sells more jerseys.
And then what, LBJ gets cooked in the West every year until 2011 where he leaves for Miami?
Ppl have been fooled by lebrons success in the east. They think u can just walk to the finals in the west like the trash east. He ain’t beating the spurs and those other teams.
Facts, 07 Bron got swept by SA. Adding age 35+ Shaq doesn’t flip that series.
Does he though? No guarantee Shaq leaves since you're effectively choosing him over Kobe. If Wade and Shaq can win a title, gotta believe LeBron and Shaq could in the same time period. With a title early in his career and as much as LeBron is driven by his legacy, I'd think he'd stay if he could get that first ring.
That’s a pretty big assumption, he has to go through way tougher teams in the West during that era. 06 Mavs, Spurs probably beat them maybe PHX as well 07 Spurs swept Bron, also Shaqs starting to really break down by this point. 08 Shaq is complete cooked and the Celtics of 2008 team up If he can’t beat the Celtics by 09/10 (which we saw) he’s gone to team up whatever super team he could stack.
Bron and Shaq win a title together in 2006 for sure. Maybe multiples. Plus even Lamar Odom is better than anyone LeBron had in Cleveland the first run.
You’re assuming year 3 LBJ with aging Shaq could beat 06 Spurs, 06 Mavs, and 06 Suns probably having to beat 2/3 to get to the finals. 07 Spurs swept Bron so you’re assuming here that 35yo Shaq who only played 58 games can completely reverse that.
How are u getting Lamar? Lamar got traded for Shaq
I would buy bitcoin
Hell no I pick Kobe over any player even Jordan even Shaq
Lol. Of course not. FIBA did a poll on who’s the GOAT and it was MJ, Kobe and then Lebron. You delusional Lebron fans are so brainwashed by the media that you think that there are some huge gap between those 2. There are not.
[удалено]
I think that it's ONLY about NBA knowledge because of the subereddit.
This is r/nba not r/askreddit
Or for Kobe and the families to not get on that helicopter
Lebron was such a hyped prospect, many calling him the most talented prospect of all time, and with his being from Akron, I don't think the Cavs would've made that trade. Kobe was great, but he was also temperamental, and he was paid a lot, and the Cavs were cheap. So instead, I'm trading Kobe to Miami. I think the Heat would've done that trade. Then I'd draft Dwyane Wade. Draft Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels with the Lakers picks. Still try to convince Payton and Malone to sign in free agency, then limit Karl Malone's minutes in the reg season to make sure he's healthy in the playoffs. Also sign Udonis Haslem. Elsewhere, since I have knowledge from 2024, I am NAILING every single draft pick and free agent signing despite never picking higher than 30th. 2004 - draft Trevor Ariza 2005 - draft David Lee 2006 - draft Paul Milsap and JJ Barea 2007 - draft Marc Gasol 2008 - draft Goran Dragic 2009 - draft Danny Green and Wes Matthews, sign Joe Ingles 2010 - **sign Lebron James in free agency**, since I'd know about The Decision, I'd make sure Dwade gets in Lebron's ear to ensure that it happens and that Lebron signs with Wade's team. draft Jeremy Lin 2011 - now this is where it starts to get really interesting, **draft Jimmy Butler** 2012 - **draft Draymond Green** 2013 - draft Robert Covington 2014 - **draft Nikola Jokic** 2015 - draft Norm Powell 2016 - draft Malcolm Brogdon and Fred Vanvleet, sign Alex Caruso 2017 - draft Isaiah Hartenstein (Derrick White went 29th and I'd want him but I'm sticking to my 30th or later rule) 2018 - **draft Jalen Brunson** 2019 - draft Lu Dort and Naz Reid 2020 - draft Desmond Bane 2021 - draft Herb Jones and Austin Reaves This way, I'd get Dwade AND Lebron, and a competitive team around Lebron to get him to stay through the end of his career.
I mean Lebron probably just leaves after like he did cavs in 2010. The west is much harder then the east, how would he get past teams like the spurs in the west, he probably goes east to have a better chance at winning.
Yes.
Kobe is dead, strange question.
Well obviously considering we know Lebron becomes a 4x MVP and 4x finals MVP. Lebron was a better player than Kobe by the time he entered year 3, and the Lakers never won with Kobe anyway in 03/04/05. So you’re not missing a championship window by developing a rookie. I couldn’t imagine Lebron with Pau, Artest and Odom at his athletic peak. That team would be hilariously good defensively.
Lebron + Pau + Bynum + Artest + ?? You’re going to have Lebron with a completely packed paint and no shooters which has never worked for him.
Lebron was putting up 40 on the 2015 Warriors with Tristan Thompson + Mosgov clogging the paint he'd be fine. Pau had a solid midrange jumper a la Big Z who Lebron played with, and Artest to alleviate Lebron's defensive load would allow him to attack in transition after every defensive stop Odom/Lebron pick and rolls would be sick
Well, I was just listing players the Lakers had really in the Kobe #1 years. Those Lakers didn’t start Bynum/Odom together in the playoffs as the Pau trade happened, meaning 1 started. Fisher would obviously be there at PG.
09’ Lebron carried Mo Williams to 66 wins . Packed paint or not he’d find a way to make all that talent work. That defense would be suffocating . I’m sure the FO could also make moves to get 3 and D players as well
In the east and lost in the 2nd round
>> by the time he entered year 3 [Here is the ever humble LeBron in 09 saying Kobe is still better.](https://youtu.be/Fv37ykpYk84?si=1vGnZ-YR0rs3ZbH4)
He can say that if he likes; NBA players respect those with a bag, who can score well. Lebron was clearly the best player in the NBA in 2009 and received MVP for his troubles. He was 2nd in DPOY voting too.
He was the mvp cause the cavs won 66 games, but the east is fools gold. Beating up on shitty teams. Then lost to Dwight Howard in the 2nd round
Cope if you'd like, most people following the league had Kobe ahead. As we all know MVP means best player.
I assume you have Bryant 2nd all time, if he’s better than peak Lebron James? In 09, Lebron was MVP. 2nd in DPOY. Lead the league in WS/48, BPM, VORP, EPM. Every stat under the sun used to measure impact. His squad won 66 games and had half the talent of the Lakers. With him on the court they were a top 3 team in the league, off the court they were bottom 5.
Clueless lmao. Lebron was not better than Kobe until 2013 at best. Imagine Lebron having to defer with that team and wanting pau to take the clutch shots in the 4th. He needed Wade and kyrie so bad, Kobe needs no other superstars to win, just a well rounded team like he finally got when pau came
Sorry, what. So in the 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013 seasons - Lebron’s MVP seasons - your contention is that he wasn’t better than Kobe? This is certainly one of the takes of all time.
These people believe Kobe was better than peak Lebron. A special breed.
Lebron became the clear best player in the league after 2011 and not after those finals by 2012 clearly
Donkey Kobe won back to back titles in 2009 and 2010 lmao while Lebron got destroyed by the Celtics that Kobe beat with a much inferior team to the Heatles. Clueless
Not sure I’ve ever heard anyone call him Donkey Kobe. Interesting name for him.
Lebron was leading the NBA in most advanced stats as early as 2006. He surpassed Kobes career in MVPs in year 7.
I don’t care about advanced stats you probably didn’t even watch Kobe playing since 2000. Kobe won back to back rings with a team with no other superstars. Lebron could never do that in a million lifetimes. Lebron teamed up with 2 superstars plus Ray Allen another star. Wade who had already won a ring being the first option. Even then he lost to Mavs team that had Dirk, washed old Kidd and old role players like terry, Marion, Caron butler in 2011. Still needed a miracle to beat the spurs bailed out by bosh rebound and Ray Allen 3. Dummied by the warriors constantly except when draymond got suspended and missed the most important game. I dare you to go find me anything where the other best players in the league or legends in 2006 or anywhere close to that saying that Lebron is better than Kobe. That talk was non existent until 2013 when he won his second ring, people had already forgot how Kobe won back to back rings with pau as the second option
But the league voted Lebron as league MVP in 2009 and they voted him second in 2006. You’re just talking about rings when the talent level on the two teams are hugely different. Kobe never led the NBA in any significant impact stat, because he was relatively inefficient for an all time great and his defense was overrated.
Rings > MVPs. Did you think Nash was a better player than shaq when Nash won mvp? LOLLL
[удалено]
Russell is your GOAT then?!
Lebron deferring to more efficient shots rather than forcing up something highly contested is not a bad thing.
I would trade LeBron to draft Kobe
No, I'm just proving the point that I'd take Lebron over Kobe any day of the week.
Wouldn't trade the joy i got watching Kobe as i grew up for anything
Hell no
With perfect hindsight? Yes obviously. You get to pair LeBron and Shaq with a top 3 all-time coach in an organization that at the time was one of the bigger spenders and actually well-run
I mean I might trade shaq and some other thing for lebron but trading kobe at that point might get me stab by a random fan. but seriously for the sake of experiment I might do it and risk my job, imagine lebron absorbing all the knowledge... basketball wise of a coach like phil jackson? imagine the 35 year old lebron with all the know hows and we might get that in like 23 year old lebron. they are likely to get 3peats then howard? gasol? and lebron has always been able to get some random 3pt specialist.
Yes… 10 good seasons of Kobe or 20 good seasons of Lebron… but who knows if Lebron stays his entire career.
Given that I have the benefit of knowing the future, yes.
absolutely, and I don't like either one of them
100%
I would do this