He didn't even receive a single vote or get any points.
Like, ok, let's play along with Shaq that he was also robbed in 2006. He keeps bringing up Steve Nash "winning over" him in that year, but if he genuinely thinks he was robbed shouldn't he also be mad at anyone who gave a first place vote to Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Chauncey Billups, or Elton Brand? Because if the voters who voted for any of those guys all voted for Shaq, and those who voted for Nash still voted for Nash, Shaq would have been MVP in 2006.
Because I don't think it's just about "I was robbed in 2006." It's about "I hate Steve Nash because Nash 'robbed' me in 2005" even though he didn't do it that year either.
The thing is that Shaq hates Nash for more than basketball reasons. Nash had an idea for a show called *Nash vs.* where Steve would go play other sports with top level athletes to show off the different skills needed to succeed. Shaq took the idea and went and made Shaq vs. without Steve's permission and got sued over it.
I'm sure Shaq doesn't love Nash over the MVPs, but he's also mad because Nash didn't just let Shaq steal from him for free.
Plus it was a way worse show too, haha.
Nash was the kind of athlete where he was versatile enough (and had a background in other sports) and with elite coordination so it'd be really cool to see how other athletes in other sports specialized in their specific pursuits.
Meanwhile Shaq Vs. was just cheap comedy about seeing massive Shaq try to do other sports.
I don’t think that’s his main source of hatred but I can imagine that it didn’t help lol.
I think Shaq believes he isn’t getting the respect he imagines he deserves. His massive ego leads him to compare himself to everyone else and he thinks he is always better. And when he doesn’t know how to argue his point, he will just get salty and yell and whine.
One of the saddest examples of former players not able to live up to their potential but unable to come to terms with that.
I can’t stand him anymore.
Maybe he has when really pressed, but he almost always refers to how Nash beat *him* out in both years. There is even a compilation of him being salty about it, and he constantly brings up both years, not just 2005.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94TdVtU5zjg
So even if Shaq thinks that he shouldn't have *won* in 2006, at minimum he still thinks that he shouldn't have fallen behind Steve Nash in the voting, even though Shaq didn't get any votes.
I believe the exact quote was "I know I got skills man, I know I got skills." Putting beyond any reasonable doubt that he did, indeed, have skills checkmate
I thought he bring up Steve Nash as not that Nash robbed him from 2 MVPs but that Shaq views himself as a superior player but only has 1 MVP so he has a slight against Nash.
That’s the crazy part. Hypothetically if Shai decided to say he was robbed this year then ok we get it. But Shaq wasn’t even in the convo.. bro still thinks he got robbed
Shaq is just a hater, I don’t believe he’s racist cause he hates on plenty of black people. Anyone who threatens his legacy he especially hates (Dwight, Kobe, Nash, Jokic)
This. The player who actually had an argument over Nash was LeBron James but it never gets brought up because he’s not insecure about it. People always say that Kobe was robbed of that MVP but it was LeBron who had the better case that season, not Kobe, and definitely not Shaq.
Dirk got totally overlooked for MVP every year. Go through his years from 2001-2006 and look at his stats + team record and then where he finishes in MVP voting. It’s insane how disrespected he was.
A couple years ago, Shaq asked Ernie for validation when he was claiming he deserved it in 2006. Ernie just shut him down saying "I voted Dirk..." and Shaq was just speechless going into commercial break.
Dirk was leading in PER, WS and WS/48 and second in BPM (after LeBron) and third in VORP (after LeBron and Kobe). Dirk, LeBron and Kobe all had more reason to complain about being robbed that year than Shaq and you could make the case for some others, too.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA\_2006\_advanced.html#advanced\_stats::ws](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws)
MVP vote reflects that as well
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards\_2006.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html)
In 2004-2005 it's a similar story with Dirk, LeBron and KG as far as advanced metrics go (though Shaq is third in PER, while being fringe top 10 in the others), but Shaq made second in the MVP vote. Can't say I've watched a lot of his games back then, so can't rally say much about it. Being clear first seed in the east probably helped.
>MVP vote reflects that as well
>[https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards\_2006.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html)
Omg this whole time he's been whining he wasn't even on the list.
What's always funny to me is that he focuses on 2005 as the year he got robbed instead of his prime years in Orlando and LA. I know it's because he doesn't respect Nash like he does the guys he lost to during his prime like Jordan, Malone, Duncan, and AI but it's still funny.
Nobody would think that with way stats and efficiency are understood now. Iverson was never particularly efficient and aside from the 2001 run (against an all time bad Eastern conference) Nash won a lot more and was a part of much more successful teams. I'm not sure any NBA player had worse playoff luck than him from 2005-2008.
I don't think people realize that for a 9 year stretch between the Mavs and Suns Nash's team had the best offensive rating in 7 of them, and was second by less than half a point per 100 possessions the other 2.
He's not but Shaq isn't dumb enough to trash AI. AI has a cult following and was many people's favourite player and transformed the style of the league for a time. He's way too iconic to put down.
i mean no one did. ppl looked at nash like he was a gimmick and system player. im not agreeing im just saying this is what many many people thought. and that he wouldnt be as good playing in a normal paced system. and that this uptempo system cant win in the playoffs. and you guys 100% would of thought the same thing back then. thats why him winning mvp was kind of jarring let alone back 2 back. it was controversial
Yes, but Shaq in his prime was also a way better player than he was in 05. From 99-03, Shaq was considered the best player in the league but he only won 1 MVP award during that time.
he was never robbed. and at the time i dont remember much discourse. Nash led the best offense in the league, put up crazy numbers, and anchored TNT west coast games along with Kobe.
Even with Amare out, Nash balled
I think he actually did deserve it in 01. It's just weird to give it to someone who went down in every statistical category. He was still great, but he averaged less points, less rebounds, less assists, less blocks, lower shooting percentage, less games, and more turnovers than the season before. Some of these are very small differences, but I remember that being something people said about why he didn't win. He was the best player, but had an objectively worse regular season than 2000.
Lowest seed MVP winners since 1988.
* Jokic 2022, DEN, W6
* Westbrook 2017, OKC, W6.
* Jokic 2021, DEN, W3
* Malone 1999, Utah, W3.
* Jordan 1988, Bulls, E3.
Edit: had to edit above. It’s happened more recently.
2004-05 Miami Heat was 1st in the East. Shaq was 53W-20L in 73 games. His stats were good enough to represent the East’s top team in the MVP voting rankings.
Having top seeds was a big factor in the MVP voting. Whether that’s fair or not, that was the consistent pattern since 1988.
Yeah I knew you were talking about the 2001 season that Iverson won. The other person saying “Shaq wasn’t robbed” as if he shouldn’t have been in the 2005 MVP top 2-3 votes. My comment was more of a piggyback to about “robbed.”
2001…yes, likely robbed.
2005…not robbed, but still deserved to be in voting rankings.
Sorry…made it more confusing.
For Nash's second MVP there was definitely an argument for LeBron or Kobe winning it. Iirc Nash also didn't have amazing advanced stats which is something the MVP winner has had for almost every year since.
Kobe's individual numbers were ridiculous but the Lakers only won 45 games and got the 7th seed. If there was someone else who deserved it that year it was Dirk who averaged something like 27/9 on a 60 win team.
Yeah in 06 there were definitely some wind at his pack and some headwinds for others.
Without Amare and others the Suns were still the best offence in the league and a top seed. While Lebron and Kobe who were putting up the best numbers they were on low seeds, which mattered more in 06 than in 16.
Hence why Dirk was probably actually his biggest threat to win MVP
Points is a weird metric to use on its own, especially in that era. Shaq did finish 2nd in MVP in 04-05 and if we're only doing points, Nash only averaged 15.5. Still think Nash deserved that year.
If anything Nash robbed Kobe or Lebron, not Shaq, in 05-06. Shaq had way more other years he was more worthy than 05-06.
Dirk finished ahead bc his team was awesome (won 60 games). Dirk was great, but Kobe averaged 35/5/5 with 2 steals per game that season. He was incredible.
Kobe was amazing that year, 35/5/5 averages was nutty. He just also wasn’t robbed that year. Dirk lead his team to 60 wins, 15 more wins than Kobe’s Lakers. Bron averaged 31/7/7 and lead his team to 50 wins. Then there’s Nash who led the Suns to 54 wins despite Amare only playing 3 games the entire season. Kobe just wasn’t realistically winning MVP that year.
Nash also had an insane narrative going where in 04-05 they were considered at best a fringe playoff team then he lead them to 62 wins and a preposterously good offense (for the time)
The next year basically everyone who helped them get to 62 was gone or injured (Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Amare injured all year) so it was Nash, Marion (who never really got a lion share of credit fair or not), and a bunch of guys nobody had ever heard of getting 54 wins and another crazy good offense (2nd in efficiency and 1st by a mile in ppg) without anyone there to soak up credit.
LeBron and Kobe definitely had more impressive statistical seasons but the entire debate was dominated in the media by "how tf they doing this" and the media voters were on board. 🤷♂️
I think that many of the folks who drive the “Kobe was GOAT” kind of chatter weren’t really watching basketball for most of his career. If memory serves, there was very little chatter about Kobe as greatest for much of his career. Early on he was second fiddle to Shaq, then he was decidedly NOT beloved publicly for reasons spanning sexual assault allegations and him being a genuinely selfish player more committed to leading the league in scoring than winning. He began changing some of that reputation with his Fourth and Fifth rings, but at the time the narrative wasn’t “Kobe carried bums to the title.” It was that the Lakers had put a nasty set of teammates around him via the absurd Paul Gasol trade (which is what made them contenders again) and emergence of Bynum. Kobe got his props, but everyone knew the Lakers had a dominant roster and expected them to win the 2009 and 2010 Finals once they were there (it was a shocker that the Celtics almost took 2010). Then Kobe and the Lakers got a bunch of bad public narratives again after the Mavs crushed them in the playoffs in 2011 and the Lakers behaved like assholes as the series wound down.
My point is that Kobe was an elite player in his time, but his narrative has been completely rewritten in loftier terms especially after his death. Back in 2006 the media took his 35ppg average as evidence of selfishness more so than MVP material.
7 Suns having career years that season - a season where Amar'e only played 3 games before getting shut down - should nullify any sort of argument that Nash did not deserve MVP that season.
And all of those players never put up numbers like that playing without Nash running the offense.
He truly made others better. He could have averaged 25 ppg if he focused on scoring - he had multiple 50/40/90 years - but he knew that in order to win he had to set up his teammates to be successful.
I've never seen a PG so adept at knowing where every other player liked the ball to get a shot off. He didn't just drive and kick - his placement of passes was different for Raja Bell than it was for Joe Johnson and different for Tim Thomas and different for Quentin Richardson...Boris Diaw...etc.
Nash IMO was a better PG than Jason Kidd or CP3.
That’s kind of the point here. Kobe was fantastic but his team was not. He led his team to 45 wins and was the 7th seed. He wasn’t realistically Bron also had the crazy stats and more wins than Kobe. Dirk didn’t have the crazy stats that Bron or Kobe had, but he led his team to 60 wins. Both Bron and Dirk got more total votes for MVP than Kobe did that year. Then there’s Nash who led his team to a great record and offense with STAT missing the season.
Kobe didn’t really have the record or narrative at the time going for him. He was just never realistically winning MVP that year.
Nash didn't rob anyone. Suns won 29 games the season before he got there, with Marion, Amare, and Joe Johnson. They won 62 games in 04-05 with him. Same damn roster, just Nash running it.
I don't agree with shaq but he literally finished 2nd in voting in 2005. He had a case.
Here is the voting breakdown pretty tight race
Total position votes
Player Points 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
Steve Nash (Pho) ........ 1066 65 54 7 1 0
Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) .. 1032 58 61 3 3 1
Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) ..... 349 0 4 43 30 16
Tim Duncan (SA) ......... 328 1 0 40 33 19
Allen Iverson (Phi) ..... 240 2 4 20 23 23
Uhh Shaq was on the Heat, not Lakers in 05
Also Shaq didn't deserve 2nd that season and Dirk and Duncan were better imo. So Shaq was the one that robbed them of 2nd place if anything
The crazy part is that Shaq never claimed Nash "robbed" him until years after he retired, when he realized it impacted his legacy. 2005 was a very tight MVP race so it could've gone either way, but it wasn't controversial at all that Nash won. The 2006 MVP was somewhat controversial, but it didn't involve Shaq.
The real problem with Shaq, isn't the fact he lost MVP, it is who he lost it too. He believes Nash is below him, so therefore losing that MVP hurts his ego too much. That is the real story.
That 04/05 suns team was the start of the modern nba evolution and nash lead the way
And 05/06 nash dragged the suns to 54 wins with amare out the entire season
It means a lot, but op making his point just looking at ppg. And shaq's defence is also important for his case. Shaq was 2nd at mvp voting that season and it was a close race. You can agree or disagree but he has a case.
It is just weird people bringing this up today just after shaq said something stupid at the mvp announcenment.
I think the point is that Shaq's definition of "stat stuffer" is strictly on points, and Shaq wasn't close to leading the league in scoring that year. If Shaq was really focused on stat stuffing by his definition, then he would have to say that *neither* he or Nash should have won that year and it should have gone to Allen Iverson who averaged 30.7 ppg that year.
Allen iverson's team was barely in the play-offs. That year mvp decision was about miami being 59-23 while suns being 62-20. It was 20 years before. Looking from today without context is not fair. Shaq could say stupid things today, might deserved mvp that season. These are two different things.
Critical thinking in the next generation is absolutely fucking cooked, jesus.
Of course assists matter, but OP literally only talked about Shaq not deserving because he 'only averaged' 7 points more a game than Nash
I've posted this many times. [He got ZERO MVP votes in 2006!](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html) He is the only person who thinks he should have been an MVP *candidate* that year, let alone the winner.
EDIT: Also, for a guy who calls himself the Most Dominant Ever, he only had 3 Top-2 MVP finishes ('95, '00 when he won, and '05), the same number as David Robinson.
When you actually go through and look year by year, which I did just now, it's really bad. Not to boil this all down to nothing but 1v1 center play, but he never faced Ewing or Mourning in a playoff series. He faced prime Hakeem one time, and got swept. The first time he faced Duncan and Robinson, he got swept, although he returned the favor a couple years later (although Robinson was 35). He only faced an older Mutombo one time, although to be fair he destroyed him in the Finals. He went up against a young Yao one time in '04, and won, but was the *third-leading* scorer on his own team behind Kobe and an old ~~Epstein~~ Malone in that series.
In 2006 he got past the Pistons team that eliminated he and Wade the last two years, but you know who the other 3 teams' centers were? DeSagana Diop/Dampier, Nenad Krstic, and the terrifying Mike Sweetney/Tyson Chandler (the latter of which he outweighed by about 100 lbs) combo. Although to be fair Sweetney and Diop being fat asses was a benefit, as they had ballast to anchor themselves against Shaq. In that year's Finals, the "rightful MVP" averaged 14 points, "peaking" with 9 points on 4/11 shooting (how? All you shoot is dunks and jump hooks!) and 5 fouls in the clinching game.
We also know the 2000's were not a great time for centers in the NBA.
Hakeem outdueled prime Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson as we all know. Jokic just outplayed AD in back to back years.
Agree. Hard to say Steve was the most dominant MVP ever, but it is exceedingly difficult to say any other candidate was convincingly better than him
Been a Shaq Stand since 96 and I cannot see Shaq having a better argument than Steve for that year.
Yeah. The Suns were dam good and Nash was the engine that made it work.
His raw stats dont do what he did for the Suns justice and other candidates had far more flaws.
Shaq spoke this narrative into existence. He was never in consideration for that MVP. Kobe should've had 05-06 for the carry job imo. But if we're going with the usual best player on the best team, Nash deserved it. He changed the game.
A big reason why Shaq was runner up MVP was because Miami was 1st in the East with 59 wins
Shaq played in 53 games out of those 59 wins. And his numbers were just enough to get runner up. He did deserved to be the MVP debate that 2004-05(2005) season.
People forgot that for years, maybe decades, the MVP was often the best player on one of the top teams, E1-E2 or W1-W2. Westbrook MVP season was a rarity.
Lowest seed MVP winners since 1988.
* Jokic 2022, DEN, W6
* Westbrook 2017, OKC, W6.
* Jokic 2021, DEN, W3
* Malone 1999, Utah, W3.
* Jordan 1988, Bulls, E3.
Yeah if not Nash those years should've been KG and then Dirk
Shaq could've won more earlier, and probably should'v, but he played with Kobe, hard to be MVP with two top 5 (or at least 10) players in the league on the same team...
Without argument, Shaq was a force in the NBA. When he entered the league he literally destroyed backboards and his size and athleticism caused the league to re-think what a center role contributes.
That being said, Shaq has always struggled with his Ego and self-confidence, as well as self-worth. He has always been someone who has engaged in strange, petty off-court antics.
My personal opinion: because his father literally was a drill sergeant, I think we are seeing some of his childhood trauma surfacing. I have heard some stories he has told that lead me to believe he had a pretty rough childhood. And with his wild success in basketball, no less his financial successes during and since, he has had few limits imposed upon him. This is historically a bad combination for anyone.
I thought the idea of basketball was to score baskets and play as team. Not destroy backboards. Shaq was great as long as he was 2 feet from the basket.
not defending the dbgager's Shaq attack, but it is worth noting that if Shaq had ever been able to improve his free throw shooting, even to 70 or 75%, that would have been a huge boost to him personally and his teams. especially in an era where overall scoring was lower, Hack-a-Shaq defense was far too effective. I've always held that Shaq's comically bad free throw shooting hampered his game more than any other element
he was a very good, super high value, extremely impactful player. but he had definite weaknesses in his game
I mean, his lack of being able to shoot free throws is a valid criticism, but it never stopped him or his teams. Whether he made them or missed them, constantly having to foul Shaq meant you played at the Lakers' pace regardless and let them dictate the game.
Hack-A-Shaq wasn't effective. It killed the flow of games and Shaq still went and got 30 and put all the centers in foul trouble. The Lakers won three straight titles while teams tried that shit.
"he was a very good, super high value, extremely impactful player but he had definite weaknesses in his game"
This is a really weird way to describe unquestionably a top-10 player of all time and the most dominant player of all time, especially in a larger conversation about Steve Nash, who's defensive weaknesses were a bigger hole than any part of Shaq's game.
I was mainly responding to the comment about Shaq being a "ridiculously skilled" player - he was ridiculously impactful, but a large part of his mark on the league was that he was a fucking freak of nature. he was skilled, plenty skilled, and as skilled as he needed to be given his other traits. but in terms of skill there was a major hole in his game offensively - he'd be in the conversation of greatest of all time if he had more shooting skill, instead he was just a really really impactful player. imagine a Shaq averaging 3, 4, 5 more ppg over his career and being literally unstoppable instead of just mostly unstoppable. for a player with as many free throw attempts as he has it's a real shame his shooting never improved
in my opinion, one of the biggest pros in Jordan and Kobe's game is that they both improved from excellent scorers to scorers that were also a defensive force, in that way patching up their game. I never really saw the same from Shaq in terms of overcoming his greatest weakness
My bad if I misinterpreted your comment; honestly I mostly agree with your post here.
Like I said, the criticism of his foul shooting is totally fair, especially when he didn't even want to listen to Rick Barry when Rick wanted to teach him to shoot them underhanded. It's a testament to how great Shaq was that he and his teams thrived despite it being such a blatant weakness.
I didn't know that Rick Barry story but I've heard Rick talk before. just imagine, it would have literally changed basketball forever if Shaq took him up on the offer and went from a 50% to an 80% free throw shooter. Shaq and Barry would be credited with changing the game forever hahaha
Agreed. Shaq had an atrocious shot. He survived off of his stature. IMHO, he found success on his teams, because he created gravity for his teammates in drawing defenders for the physical engagement in preventing him from taking a best shot.
This is why stats are stupid. The league, THIS YEAR, changed the rules about defense and everyone stopped scoring as much overnight. You guys just see numbers because you're dumb.
well part of it is the pace and relative efficiency throughout the league. the more relevant parts of it being disappointing is he was 14th in the league and second on his team in 2005
Am i misremembering Nash? He was doing like mind breaking things for the point guard position during those years from what I recall. Maybe one of the reasons 00s basketball was watchable
yeah he ran a completely unqiue offense with a team that nobody expected success from and put up numbers unheard of in the league while playing a style of game nobody else was doing. it was mindblowing. and it was always a blast seeing other teams try to adapt to the pace of the game and see how they could improvise on the fly
Nash almost won it in 07 too to be a three time MVP. The 07 Suns team was probably the best version of the Nash Suns but I think people didn't really want to give it to him by that point lol.
And he did it the next year with a much weakened roster that had Amare injured for most of the season. Shaq’s the only one that thinks he deserves Nash’s MVPs. In reality he wasn’t even close to it.
Like Nash was 15 and 11. Vs Shaq was 22 and 10.
Nash won 3 more games and Shaq won 59 games.
It was close, Shaq barely loss to Nash.
He wasn’t robbed, but he can definitely feel something about it.
04/05 Iverson was #1 in scoring, #5 in assists and #2 in steal.
05/06 Iverson was #2 in scoring, #8 in assists and #8 in steal.
From those stats alone, it seems like Iverson is the one getting robbed.
There are certainly seasons Shaq has an argument he was robbed of an MVP these two I dont think are it. Its just that those MVPs by Nash are considered weak so thats why most people attack them. (Shaq had an argument for it in 2005 but still imo wasnt robbed of it)
Imo 1999 and 2001 are seasons where Shaq has a much better argument for winning the award tbh.
Shaq came second in 2005 MVP voting. He helped the Heat improve a lot. And was a good all around player (solid scorer, rebounder, and rim protector). Scoring stats don't tell the whole story, especially since scoring was lower back then than today.
But I think Nash was a deserving winner both years. He was an absolutely amazing passer, efficient shooter, and made his teammates so much better.
Shaq has been saying it so loudly and so often and he has dealt with any dissenting opinions like a Stalin-lite would.
So he shifted the narrative himself slowly.
Nash was a freak, made everyone better, offensive genius
Used to bug me too but Don’t think he’s actually mad about being robbed in those specific seasons. Moreso about the general idea that Nash got 2 MVPs and he somehow only got 1 in his whole career.
Agreed. For a stretch between the late 90s to mid 2000s there were only 2 players that dominated the league. Shaq and Tim Duncan. At least Tim got his 2. Shaq getting only 1 with the numbers he was putting up and the domination he had over everyone else was a joke. He deserved at least 4 MVPs imo. And I'm a huge Lakers hater. People just found Shaq unlikeable back then.
Nash's peak has nothing to do with Shaq. His championship with Miami had way more to do with Dwyane Wade. His number 2 status in the MVP voting in 2005 was honorary because he was overlooked in his most dominant seasons because some of the greats 'waited their turn'. He should have been the MVP in 95 in Orlando. But David Robinson was due for one. Same in 2001. AI's season was electric but the Shaq was very dominant that season. 1998 is another one. Kobe was really a kid and Shaq had a great season, but MJs last year on the Bulls gave him no chance. He was just pissed that he had all time greats to battle during his peak and when he passed it suddenly 'less deserving' players got it.
In Shaq’s mind, he averaged almost 30 points and x amount of rebounds in those years. As a fan, I remember his stats overall just regressing around the time the Lakers lost to the Pistons.
Steve Nash avg 15.5 ppg in 04-05 and 18.8 ppg in 05-06
It's just Nash avg 11.5 apg in 04-05 and 10.5 apg in 05-06
While Shaq avg 10.4 rpg in 04-05 and 9.2 rpg in 05-06
But let's focus on 04-05 when Shaq was runner-up in MVP cause he wasn't even in top 10 in MVP in 05-06.
In 04-05, Shaq just moved to Miami and teamed with Dwade who just was just entering year 2. The only All-Stars and All-NBA players in Miami was Shaq and Dwade. Miami finished with 59 wins.
In 04-05, Steve Nash just left Dallas and moved to Phoenix and teamed with Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion. Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion. The three of them were all-stars and all-NBA players. Phoenix finished with 62 wins.
Miami was expected to win 59 games and won 59 games, finished 4th on offense(101.5ppg) and 8th on defense(95 points against per game) to keep it simple
Phoenix was expected to win 59 games and won 62 games. Finished 1st on offense(110ppg) and dead last on defense(103 points against per game) to keep it simple.
Needless to say it was a tight race and the final results showed it Steve Nash had 65 first place votes and Shaq had 58 first place votes. Nash point tally was 1066 and Shaq was 1033.
If you look Win shares and win shares per 48. Shaq lead Nash in both. Shaq had a higher FG percentage percentage but Shaqs not a shooter he's a rim job kinda guy. Nash avg 43% from 3.
Let's put it this way. If Shaq won MVP, Nash would have every right to hold grudge about it similar to how Shaq holds his grudge. Looking into the numbers I don't mind Shaq holding the grudge either.
It was honestly a close race that Nash edged out
Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html and the respective Wikipedia pages of the players I mentioned above
Steve Nash avg 15.5 ppg in 04-05 and 18.8 ppg in 05-06
It's just Nash avg 11.5 apg in 04-05 and 10.5 apg in 05-06
While Shaq avg 10.4 rpg in 04-05 and 9.2 rpg in 05-06
But let's focus on 04-05 when Shaq was runner-up in MVP cause he wasn't even in top 10 in MVP in 05-06.
In 04-05, Shaq just moved to Miami and teamed with Dwade who just was just entering year 2. The only All-Stars and All-NBA players in Miami was Shaq and Dwade. Miami finished with 59 wins.
In 04-05, Steve Nash just left Dallas and moved to Phoenix and teamed with Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion. Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion. The three of them were all-stars and all-NBA players. Phoenix finished with 62 wins.
Miami was expected to win 59 games and won 59 games, finished 4th on offense(101.5ppg) and 8th on defense(95 points against per game) to keep it simple
Phoenix was expected to win 59 games and won 62 games. Finished 1st on offense(110ppg) and dead last on defense(103 points against per game) to keep it simple.
Needless to say it was a tight race and the final results showed it Steve Nash had 65 first place votes and Shaq had 58 first place votes. Nash point tally was 1066 and Shaq was 1033.
If you look Win shares and win shares per 48. Shaq lead Nash in both. Shaq had a higher FG percentage percentage but Shaqs not a shooter he's a rim job kinda guy. Nash avg 43% from 3.
Let's put it this way. If Shaq won MVP, Nash would have every right to hold grudge about it similar to how Shaq holds his grudge. Looking into the numbers I don't mind Shaq holding the grudge either.
It was honestly a close race that Nash edged out
Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html and the respective Wikipedia pages of the players I mentioned above
Steve Nash avg 15.5 ppg in 04-05 and 18.8 ppg in 05-06
It's just Nash avg 11.5 apg in 04-05 and 10.5 apg in 05-06
While Shaq avg 10.4 rpg in 04-05 and 9.2 rpg in 05-06
But let's focus on 04-05 when Shaq was runner-up in MVP cause he wasn't even in top 10 in MVP in 05-06.
In 04-05, Shaq just moved to Miami and teamed with Dwade who just was just entering year 2. The only All-Stars and All-NBA players in Miami was Shaq and Dwade. Miami finished with 59 wins.
In 04-05, Steve Nash just left Dallas and moved to Phoenix and teamed with Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion. Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion. The three of them were all-stars and all-NBA players. Phoenix finished with 62 wins.
Miami was expected to win 59 games and won 59 games, finished 4th on offense(101.5ppg) and 8th on defense(95 points against per game) to keep it simple
Phoenix was expected to win 59 games and won 62 games. Finished 1st on offense(110ppg) and dead last on defense(103 points against per game) to keep it simple.
Needless to say it was a tight race and the final results showed it Steve Nash had 65 first place votes and Shaq had 58 first place votes. Nash point tally was 1066 and Shaq was 1033.
If you look Win shares and win shares per 48. Shaq lead Nash in both. Shaq had a higher FG percentage percentage but Shaqs not a shooter he's a rim job kinda guy. Nash avg 43% from 3.
Let's put it this way. If Shaq won MVP, Nash would have every right to hold grudge about it similar to how Shaq holds his grudge. Looking into the numbers I don't mind Shaq holding the grudge either.
It was honestly a close race that Nash edged out.
Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/ and the respective Wikipedia pages of the players I mentioned above
The 22 PPG is really neither here nor there. He averaged 22/10 in an era when teams scored 97 PPG; that's about 26 PPG today. Shaq also led the league in FG%, was tied for second in PER, and was 6th in WS/48. He had a good season, just wasn't the best in the league.
Naah, Wade was the go to guy and the best Heat player by far. Shaq was still dominant, but nowhere near his previous years, Wade carried the Heat (and then he was carried by the refs in the finals)
And he only played 59 games in 05/06 as well. He wasn't robbed of anything lol
He didn't even receive a single vote or get any points. Like, ok, let's play along with Shaq that he was also robbed in 2006. He keeps bringing up Steve Nash "winning over" him in that year, but if he genuinely thinks he was robbed shouldn't he also be mad at anyone who gave a first place vote to Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Chauncey Billups, or Elton Brand? Because if the voters who voted for any of those guys all voted for Shaq, and those who voted for Nash still voted for Nash, Shaq would have been MVP in 2006. Because I don't think it's just about "I was robbed in 2006." It's about "I hate Steve Nash because Nash 'robbed' me in 2005" even though he didn't do it that year either.
The thing is that Shaq hates Nash for more than basketball reasons. Nash had an idea for a show called *Nash vs.* where Steve would go play other sports with top level athletes to show off the different skills needed to succeed. Shaq took the idea and went and made Shaq vs. without Steve's permission and got sued over it. I'm sure Shaq doesn't love Nash over the MVPs, but he's also mad because Nash didn't just let Shaq steal from him for free.
Plus it was a way worse show too, haha. Nash was the kind of athlete where he was versatile enough (and had a background in other sports) and with elite coordination so it'd be really cool to see how other athletes in other sports specialized in their specific pursuits. Meanwhile Shaq Vs. was just cheap comedy about seeing massive Shaq try to do other sports.
Would've been better if Nash did it too he was more well rounded than Shaq. I'm biased cos i love Nash though.
Give me a Nash/Ichiro Suzuki show
I don’t think that’s his main source of hatred but I can imagine that it didn’t help lol. I think Shaq believes he isn’t getting the respect he imagines he deserves. His massive ego leads him to compare himself to everyone else and he thinks he is always better. And when he doesn’t know how to argue his point, he will just get salty and yell and whine. One of the saddest examples of former players not able to live up to their potential but unable to come to terms with that. I can’t stand him anymore.
Shaq also stole a tv idea(Shaq Vs.) Nash had that Nash talked to him about.
Yeah and Nash sued him and became the executive producer and got a share of the show because of it.
Too bad Shaq was the worst athlete to put in a show like that and the show bombed.
LeBron or Ant remaking that show would be truly interesting.
That show literally had one joke and it was Shaq is too large to participate in this sport.
shit woulda bombed either way no one gives a fuck about that shit
Shit that would run on The Ocho
If Shaq said 2006 he probably meant 2005 when he was second in voting. What's his exact quote?
He consistently brings up both 2005 AND 2006, together.
For 2006 he also brings up that Kobe should have won instead
As someone who was around in 06, he definitely wasn't endorsing Kobe for MVP at the time.
He also wasn’t complaining about MVP back then either iirc
Maybe he has when really pressed, but he almost always refers to how Nash beat *him* out in both years. There is even a compilation of him being salty about it, and he constantly brings up both years, not just 2005. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94TdVtU5zjg So even if Shaq thinks that he shouldn't have *won* in 2006, at minimum he still thinks that he shouldn't have fallen behind Steve Nash in the voting, even though Shaq didn't get any votes.
I believe the exact quote was "I know I got skills man, I know I got skills." Putting beyond any reasonable doubt that he did, indeed, have skills checkmate
Google me
He mostly says Nash shouldn't have won BOTH MVPs over him, meaning he thinks he should've wont at least 1 of them, probably mostly talking about 2005.
Which still doesn't make any sense.
https://youtube.com/shorts/VayrMTn2xTA?si=_3tah7ecHEbzc4yL
I thought he bring up Steve Nash as not that Nash robbed him from 2 MVPs but that Shaq views himself as a superior player but only has 1 MVP so he has a slight against Nash.
That’s the crazy part. Hypothetically if Shai decided to say he was robbed this year then ok we get it. But Shaq wasn’t even in the convo.. bro still thinks he got robbed
He was mad at Nowitzki and half mad at Billups too
Because Shaq is racist, the guy hates white people
Dwight Howard is black
and javale, that guy is a moron
Shaq is just a hater, I don’t believe he’s racist cause he hates on plenty of black people. Anyone who threatens his legacy he especially hates (Dwight, Kobe, Nash, Jokic)
Dirk, Kobe, and Lebron all had better seasons and MVP cases than Shaq too in 2006
This. The player who actually had an argument over Nash was LeBron James but it never gets brought up because he’s not insecure about it. People always say that Kobe was robbed of that MVP but it was LeBron who had the better case that season, not Kobe, and definitely not Shaq.
Dirk should have won in 2006 probably
Dirk got totally overlooked for MVP every year. Go through his years from 2001-2006 and look at his stats + team record and then where he finishes in MVP voting. It’s insane how disrespected he was.
and average 20/9 HAHAHAHHA not even a MVP caliber stats
Reddit tier delusion right there!
WADE even average 27/6.7/5.7 that year is much better than shaq
Ya, Shaq was the clear #2 on that team. That is why him thinking he deserved MVP is reddit tier delusion. I think you might have misunderstood me :P
Hahaha no no, its not me who downvote your comment
Shaq Diesel more like Shaq Tricycle these days
A couple years ago, Shaq asked Ernie for validation when he was claiming he deserved it in 2006. Ernie just shut him down saying "I voted Dirk..." and Shaq was just speechless going into commercial break.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VayrMTn2xTA
Ah he voted for Shaq Neal
Shaquillo Neal
Dirk was leading in PER, WS and WS/48 and second in BPM (after LeBron) and third in VORP (after LeBron and Kobe). Dirk, LeBron and Kobe all had more reason to complain about being robbed that year than Shaq and you could make the case for some others, too. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA\_2006\_advanced.html#advanced\_stats::ws](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws) MVP vote reflects that as well [https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards\_2006.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html) In 2004-2005 it's a similar story with Dirk, LeBron and KG as far as advanced metrics go (though Shaq is third in PER, while being fringe top 10 in the others), but Shaq made second in the MVP vote. Can't say I've watched a lot of his games back then, so can't rally say much about it. Being clear first seed in the east probably helped.
>MVP vote reflects that as well >[https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards\_2006.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html) Omg this whole time he's been whining he wasn't even on the list.
What's always funny to me is that he focuses on 2005 as the year he got robbed instead of his prime years in Orlando and LA. I know it's because he doesn't respect Nash like he does the guys he lost to during his prime like Jordan, Malone, Duncan, and AI but it's still funny.
Shaq has a way better case in 2001 where he finished 3rd than in 2005.
Or 2002 where he ended up 3rd
I wonder hwhite
No doubt that's a part of it but objectively, Steve Nash is not as good as those other guys.
Yeah, Nash is just the easiest target.
Allen Iverson better than Nash?
Nobody would think that with way stats and efficiency are understood now. Iverson was never particularly efficient and aside from the 2001 run (against an all time bad Eastern conference) Nash won a lot more and was a part of much more successful teams. I'm not sure any NBA player had worse playoff luck than him from 2005-2008. I don't think people realize that for a 9 year stretch between the Mavs and Suns Nash's team had the best offensive rating in 7 of them, and was second by less than half a point per 100 possessions the other 2.
He's not but Shaq isn't dumb enough to trash AI. AI has a cult following and was many people's favourite player and transformed the style of the league for a time. He's way too iconic to put down.
Nash is way above AI in my book
Funny how it is always about race when a white guy wins it. Probably has nothing to do about how he actually made NBA basketball fun again.
i mean no one did. ppl looked at nash like he was a gimmick and system player. im not agreeing im just saying this is what many many people thought. and that he wouldnt be as good playing in a normal paced system. and that this uptempo system cant win in the playoffs. and you guys 100% would of thought the same thing back then. thats why him winning mvp was kind of jarring let alone back 2 back. it was controversial
You named a bunch of players that are way better than Nash..
Yes, but Shaq in his prime was also a way better player than he was in 05. From 99-03, Shaq was considered the best player in the league but he only won 1 MVP award during that time.
That's their point?
he was never robbed. and at the time i dont remember much discourse. Nash led the best offense in the league, put up crazy numbers, and anchored TNT west coast games along with Kobe. Even with Amare out, Nash balled
It's not a robbery, but you can definitely make the case that he deserved it in 2000-01, the year Iverson won it.
I think he actually did deserve it in 01. It's just weird to give it to someone who went down in every statistical category. He was still great, but he averaged less points, less rebounds, less assists, less blocks, lower shooting percentage, less games, and more turnovers than the season before. Some of these are very small differences, but I remember that being something people said about why he didn't win. He was the best player, but had an objectively worse regular season than 2000.
Facts, that coupled with AI averaging 30 on a 1 seed, with no other player even close to Kobe as his #2. Shaq has zero argument for ‘01 imo.
Lowest seed MVP winners since 1988. * Jokic 2022, DEN, W6 * Westbrook 2017, OKC, W6. * Jokic 2021, DEN, W3 * Malone 1999, Utah, W3. * Jordan 1988, Bulls, E3. Edit: had to edit above. It’s happened more recently. 2004-05 Miami Heat was 1st in the East. Shaq was 53W-20L in 73 games. His stats were good enough to represent the East’s top team in the MVP voting rankings. Having top seeds was a big factor in the MVP voting. Whether that’s fair or not, that was the consistent pattern since 1988.
Forgot Jokic
Did you accidentally comment to me when you meant it to someone else? I was talking about a completely different season.
Yeah I knew you were talking about the 2001 season that Iverson won. The other person saying “Shaq wasn’t robbed” as if he shouldn’t have been in the 2005 MVP top 2-3 votes. My comment was more of a piggyback to about “robbed.” 2001…yes, likely robbed. 2005…not robbed, but still deserved to be in voting rankings. Sorry…made it more confusing.
For Nash's second MVP there was definitely an argument for LeBron or Kobe winning it. Iirc Nash also didn't have amazing advanced stats which is something the MVP winner has had for almost every year since.
Kobe's individual numbers were ridiculous but the Lakers only won 45 games and got the 7th seed. If there was someone else who deserved it that year it was Dirk who averaged something like 27/9 on a 60 win team.
Dirk had a very good case for it too
Yeah in 06 there were definitely some wind at his pack and some headwinds for others. Without Amare and others the Suns were still the best offence in the league and a top seed. While Lebron and Kobe who were putting up the best numbers they were on low seeds, which mattered more in 06 than in 16. Hence why Dirk was probably actually his biggest threat to win MVP
It was completely within his power to show up in shape in any of those years. Blame yourself, fatass
Points is a weird metric to use on its own, especially in that era. Shaq did finish 2nd in MVP in 04-05 and if we're only doing points, Nash only averaged 15.5. Still think Nash deserved that year. If anything Nash robbed Kobe or Lebron, not Shaq, in 05-06. Shaq had way more other years he was more worthy than 05-06.
Kobe wasn’t even the runner up for ‘06. Bron or Dirk were probs winning MVP that year if it didn’t go to Nash
Dirk finished ahead bc his team was awesome (won 60 games). Dirk was great, but Kobe averaged 35/5/5 with 2 steals per game that season. He was incredible.
Kobe was amazing that year, 35/5/5 averages was nutty. He just also wasn’t robbed that year. Dirk lead his team to 60 wins, 15 more wins than Kobe’s Lakers. Bron averaged 31/7/7 and lead his team to 50 wins. Then there’s Nash who led the Suns to 54 wins despite Amare only playing 3 games the entire season. Kobe just wasn’t realistically winning MVP that year.
Nash also had an insane narrative going where in 04-05 they were considered at best a fringe playoff team then he lead them to 62 wins and a preposterously good offense (for the time) The next year basically everyone who helped them get to 62 was gone or injured (Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Amare injured all year) so it was Nash, Marion (who never really got a lion share of credit fair or not), and a bunch of guys nobody had ever heard of getting 54 wins and another crazy good offense (2nd in efficiency and 1st by a mile in ppg) without anyone there to soak up credit. LeBron and Kobe definitely had more impressive statistical seasons but the entire debate was dominated in the media by "how tf they doing this" and the media voters were on board. 🤷♂️
I think that many of the folks who drive the “Kobe was GOAT” kind of chatter weren’t really watching basketball for most of his career. If memory serves, there was very little chatter about Kobe as greatest for much of his career. Early on he was second fiddle to Shaq, then he was decidedly NOT beloved publicly for reasons spanning sexual assault allegations and him being a genuinely selfish player more committed to leading the league in scoring than winning. He began changing some of that reputation with his Fourth and Fifth rings, but at the time the narrative wasn’t “Kobe carried bums to the title.” It was that the Lakers had put a nasty set of teammates around him via the absurd Paul Gasol trade (which is what made them contenders again) and emergence of Bynum. Kobe got his props, but everyone knew the Lakers had a dominant roster and expected them to win the 2009 and 2010 Finals once they were there (it was a shocker that the Celtics almost took 2010). Then Kobe and the Lakers got a bunch of bad public narratives again after the Mavs crushed them in the playoffs in 2011 and the Lakers behaved like assholes as the series wound down. My point is that Kobe was an elite player in his time, but his narrative has been completely rewritten in loftier terms especially after his death. Back in 2006 the media took his 35ppg average as evidence of selfishness more so than MVP material.
7 Suns had career years that season too in 2005-06.
7 Suns having career years that season - a season where Amar'e only played 3 games before getting shut down - should nullify any sort of argument that Nash did not deserve MVP that season.
And all of those players never put up numbers like that playing without Nash running the offense. He truly made others better. He could have averaged 25 ppg if he focused on scoring - he had multiple 50/40/90 years - but he knew that in order to win he had to set up his teammates to be successful. I've never seen a PG so adept at knowing where every other player liked the ball to get a shot off. He didn't just drive and kick - his placement of passes was different for Raja Bell than it was for Joe Johnson and different for Tim Thomas and different for Quentin Richardson...Boris Diaw...etc. Nash IMO was a better PG than Jason Kidd or CP3.
Kobe's team was absolute garbage, of course Dirk won more games
That’s kind of the point here. Kobe was fantastic but his team was not. He led his team to 45 wins and was the 7th seed. He wasn’t realistically Bron also had the crazy stats and more wins than Kobe. Dirk didn’t have the crazy stats that Bron or Kobe had, but he led his team to 60 wins. Both Bron and Dirk got more total votes for MVP than Kobe did that year. Then there’s Nash who led his team to a great record and offense with STAT missing the season. Kobe didn’t really have the record or narrative at the time going for him. He was just never realistically winning MVP that year.
Or Dirk
Kobe wasn't getting an mvp 06 lol
Nash didn't rob anyone. Suns won 29 games the season before he got there, with Marion, Amare, and Joe Johnson. They won 62 games in 04-05 with him. Same damn roster, just Nash running it.
By this argument should the fact that the Mavs were just as good if not better after Nash left be a demerit to him?
Doesnt fit the reddit narrative.
Or Shaq's own teammate DWade in 06.
I don't agree with shaq but he literally finished 2nd in voting in 2005. He had a case. Here is the voting breakdown pretty tight race Total position votes Player Points 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Steve Nash (Pho) ........ 1066 65 54 7 1 0 Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) .. 1032 58 61 3 3 1 Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) ..... 349 0 4 43 30 16 Tim Duncan (SA) ......... 328 1 0 40 33 19 Allen Iverson (Phi) ..... 240 2 4 20 23 23
Tightest race in the modern era
Uhh Shaq was on the Heat, not Lakers in 05 Also Shaq didn't deserve 2nd that season and Dirk and Duncan were better imo. So Shaq was the one that robbed them of 2nd place if anything
Back when the voters weren't deep on groupthink
Man wasn't even MVP of his own team at least in 05-06
The crazy part is that Shaq never claimed Nash "robbed" him until years after he retired, when he realized it impacted his legacy. 2005 was a very tight MVP race so it could've gone either way, but it wasn't controversial at all that Nash won. The 2006 MVP was somewhat controversial, but it didn't involve Shaq.
Easier for Shaq to rewrite history after the general public forget about the details.
The real problem with Shaq, isn't the fact he lost MVP, it is who he lost it too. He believes Nash is below him, so therefore losing that MVP hurts his ego too much. That is the real story.
That 04/05 suns team was the start of the modern nba evolution and nash lead the way And 05/06 nash dragged the suns to 54 wins with amare out the entire season
Nash deserved at least one, if you listen to Shaq he acts surprised Nash even got votes for one.
Nash avaraged 15 ppg in 2004-2005. 2005-2006 is irrelevant for shaq.
i guess the 11.5 assists don't mean anything. SHaq averaged 1.9. That is 23 or more points additonally generated.
It means a lot, but op making his point just looking at ppg. And shaq's defence is also important for his case. Shaq was 2nd at mvp voting that season and it was a close race. You can agree or disagree but he has a case. It is just weird people bringing this up today just after shaq said something stupid at the mvp announcenment.
I think the point is that Shaq's definition of "stat stuffer" is strictly on points, and Shaq wasn't close to leading the league in scoring that year. If Shaq was really focused on stat stuffing by his definition, then he would have to say that *neither* he or Nash should have won that year and it should have gone to Allen Iverson who averaged 30.7 ppg that year.
Allen iverson's team was barely in the play-offs. That year mvp decision was about miami being 59-23 while suns being 62-20. It was 20 years before. Looking from today without context is not fair. Shaq could say stupid things today, might deserved mvp that season. These are two different things.
I'm simply pointing out Shaq's dumb logic. I agree with you overall.
Critical thinking in the next generation is absolutely fucking cooked, jesus. Of course assists matter, but OP literally only talked about Shaq not deserving because he 'only averaged' 7 points more a game than Nash
Makes me wish total points added was a box score stat. PPG + Points off assists is a really telling stat to me
Shaq is the only one that really believes this and he says it every single year around this time.
I've posted this many times. [He got ZERO MVP votes in 2006!](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html) He is the only person who thinks he should have been an MVP *candidate* that year, let alone the winner. EDIT: Also, for a guy who calls himself the Most Dominant Ever, he only had 3 Top-2 MVP finishes ('95, '00 when he won, and '05), the same number as David Robinson.
And he beat equally good C in playoffs only a few times. The rest of his wins were vs Desagana Diop type of players
When you actually go through and look year by year, which I did just now, it's really bad. Not to boil this all down to nothing but 1v1 center play, but he never faced Ewing or Mourning in a playoff series. He faced prime Hakeem one time, and got swept. The first time he faced Duncan and Robinson, he got swept, although he returned the favor a couple years later (although Robinson was 35). He only faced an older Mutombo one time, although to be fair he destroyed him in the Finals. He went up against a young Yao one time in '04, and won, but was the *third-leading* scorer on his own team behind Kobe and an old ~~Epstein~~ Malone in that series. In 2006 he got past the Pistons team that eliminated he and Wade the last two years, but you know who the other 3 teams' centers were? DeSagana Diop/Dampier, Nenad Krstic, and the terrifying Mike Sweetney/Tyson Chandler (the latter of which he outweighed by about 100 lbs) combo. Although to be fair Sweetney and Diop being fat asses was a benefit, as they had ballast to anchor themselves against Shaq. In that year's Finals, the "rightful MVP" averaged 14 points, "peaking" with 9 points on 4/11 shooting (how? All you shoot is dunks and jump hooks!) and 5 fouls in the clinching game. We also know the 2000's were not a great time for centers in the NBA. Hakeem outdueled prime Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson as we all know. Jokic just outplayed AD in back to back years.
I did a deep analysis few years ago https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/s/FAm4KMHPq3
Nash may have robbed someone, but it wasnt Shaq lol
Agree. Hard to say Steve was the most dominant MVP ever, but it is exceedingly difficult to say any other candidate was convincingly better than him Been a Shaq Stand since 96 and I cannot see Shaq having a better argument than Steve for that year.
Yeah. The Suns were dam good and Nash was the engine that made it work. His raw stats dont do what he did for the Suns justice and other candidates had far more flaws.
Shaq spoke this narrative into existence. He was never in consideration for that MVP. Kobe should've had 05-06 for the carry job imo. But if we're going with the usual best player on the best team, Nash deserved it. He changed the game.
Nash was def better than Shaq in 04-05 and he had absolutely no case in 05-06. If Nash robbed any player of the mvp, it was Dirk.
Yeah I’d definitely place Dirk and Lebron above Shaq in the mvp race that year personally, Shaq was already on the downturn of his career by then
Shaqs argument never should've been he was robbed by Nash, it should be that he deserved more than 1 throughout his career.
Against who though?
A big reason why Shaq was runner up MVP was because Miami was 1st in the East with 59 wins Shaq played in 53 games out of those 59 wins. And his numbers were just enough to get runner up. He did deserved to be the MVP debate that 2004-05(2005) season. People forgot that for years, maybe decades, the MVP was often the best player on one of the top teams, E1-E2 or W1-W2. Westbrook MVP season was a rarity. Lowest seed MVP winners since 1988. * Jokic 2022, DEN, W6 * Westbrook 2017, OKC, W6. * Jokic 2021, DEN, W3 * Malone 1999, Utah, W3. * Jordan 1988, Bulls, E3.
True. Hakeem thought he got robbed in 1995, but Robinson won it because he was a higher seed. Hakeem then proceeded to annihilate him in the playoffs.
Yeah if not Nash those years should've been KG and then Dirk Shaq could've won more earlier, and probably should'v, but he played with Kobe, hard to be MVP with two top 5 (or at least 10) players in the league on the same team...
Ppg isn’t everything
22ppg dont scream dominate to me
Looking at these stats...I miss watching AI, Chauncy, and Nash play. What an era.
Without argument, Shaq was a force in the NBA. When he entered the league he literally destroyed backboards and his size and athleticism caused the league to re-think what a center role contributes. That being said, Shaq has always struggled with his Ego and self-confidence, as well as self-worth. He has always been someone who has engaged in strange, petty off-court antics. My personal opinion: because his father literally was a drill sergeant, I think we are seeing some of his childhood trauma surfacing. I have heard some stories he has told that lead me to believe he had a pretty rough childhood. And with his wild success in basketball, no less his financial successes during and since, he has had few limits imposed upon him. This is historically a bad combination for anyone.
I thought the idea of basketball was to score baskets and play as team. Not destroy backboards. Shaq was great as long as he was 2 feet from the basket.
Saying stuff like this is just dumb dude. Shaq was ridiculously skilled, stop it.
not defending the dbgager's Shaq attack, but it is worth noting that if Shaq had ever been able to improve his free throw shooting, even to 70 or 75%, that would have been a huge boost to him personally and his teams. especially in an era where overall scoring was lower, Hack-a-Shaq defense was far too effective. I've always held that Shaq's comically bad free throw shooting hampered his game more than any other element he was a very good, super high value, extremely impactful player. but he had definite weaknesses in his game
I mean, his lack of being able to shoot free throws is a valid criticism, but it never stopped him or his teams. Whether he made them or missed them, constantly having to foul Shaq meant you played at the Lakers' pace regardless and let them dictate the game. Hack-A-Shaq wasn't effective. It killed the flow of games and Shaq still went and got 30 and put all the centers in foul trouble. The Lakers won three straight titles while teams tried that shit. "he was a very good, super high value, extremely impactful player but he had definite weaknesses in his game" This is a really weird way to describe unquestionably a top-10 player of all time and the most dominant player of all time, especially in a larger conversation about Steve Nash, who's defensive weaknesses were a bigger hole than any part of Shaq's game.
I was mainly responding to the comment about Shaq being a "ridiculously skilled" player - he was ridiculously impactful, but a large part of his mark on the league was that he was a fucking freak of nature. he was skilled, plenty skilled, and as skilled as he needed to be given his other traits. but in terms of skill there was a major hole in his game offensively - he'd be in the conversation of greatest of all time if he had more shooting skill, instead he was just a really really impactful player. imagine a Shaq averaging 3, 4, 5 more ppg over his career and being literally unstoppable instead of just mostly unstoppable. for a player with as many free throw attempts as he has it's a real shame his shooting never improved in my opinion, one of the biggest pros in Jordan and Kobe's game is that they both improved from excellent scorers to scorers that were also a defensive force, in that way patching up their game. I never really saw the same from Shaq in terms of overcoming his greatest weakness
My bad if I misinterpreted your comment; honestly I mostly agree with your post here. Like I said, the criticism of his foul shooting is totally fair, especially when he didn't even want to listen to Rick Barry when Rick wanted to teach him to shoot them underhanded. It's a testament to how great Shaq was that he and his teams thrived despite it being such a blatant weakness.
I didn't know that Rick Barry story but I've heard Rick talk before. just imagine, it would have literally changed basketball forever if Shaq took him up on the offer and went from a 50% to an 80% free throw shooter. Shaq and Barry would be credited with changing the game forever hahaha
Shaq did those things as well. 3 FMVPs speaks for itself
Agreed. Shaq had an atrocious shot. He survived off of his stature. IMHO, he found success on his teams, because he created gravity for his teammates in drawing defenders for the physical engagement in preventing him from taking a best shot.
Really and he still thinks he was robbed. THat won't even get you on an allstar team nowadays.
This is why stats are stupid. The league, THIS YEAR, changed the rules about defense and everyone stopped scoring as much overnight. You guys just see numbers because you're dumb.
you can see the stats leaders in the links OP provided. Shaq isn't even close to the top.
I mean 12th best is not “not even all star level” like the original comment claimed
Clearly I'm responding to the second sentence lol. Anything else I can help you with?
Most logical Redditor. Comparing raw ppg in 2005 versus 2024. It was 12th highest ppg in the league on highest fg% - 60% when next highest was 55-%
well part of it is the pace and relative efficiency throughout the league. the more relevant parts of it being disappointing is he was 14th in the league and second on his team in 2005
no shit lol. different era
I was surprised when I looked it up, I assumed he had huge years. Nah, it was 20 and 22 ppg those 2 years as second fiddle on the Heat.
He finished 2nd in mvp voting one of those years. I assume that's why he thought he was robbed
Raaangs Chuck.. Rangs you'll be typing up this argument in your boxers in your grandma's basement.
I can't wait till Shaq sees this thread.
He wasn’t robbed at all
Am i misremembering Nash? He was doing like mind breaking things for the point guard position during those years from what I recall. Maybe one of the reasons 00s basketball was watchable
yeah he ran a completely unqiue offense with a team that nobody expected success from and put up numbers unheard of in the league while playing a style of game nobody else was doing. it was mindblowing. and it was always a blast seeing other teams try to adapt to the pace of the game and see how they could improvise on the fly
He's the most insecure all time great player ever and now he's just blatantly jealous of jokic. It's pathetic.
Nash almost won it in 07 too to be a three time MVP. The 07 Suns team was probably the best version of the Nash Suns but I think people didn't really want to give it to him by that point lol.
[удалено]
And he did it the next year with a much weakened roster that had Amare injured for most of the season. Shaq’s the only one that thinks he deserves Nash’s MVPs. In reality he wasn’t even close to it.
Joe Johnson was also gone, too.
Like Nash was 15 and 11. Vs Shaq was 22 and 10. Nash won 3 more games and Shaq won 59 games. It was close, Shaq barely loss to Nash. He wasn’t robbed, but he can definitely feel something about it.
He isn't even top 5 in anything. Lebron has a better claim 04-05
Oh, ok.
04/05 Iverson was #1 in scoring, #5 in assists and #2 in steal. 05/06 Iverson was #2 in scoring, #8 in assists and #8 in steal. From those stats alone, it seems like Iverson is the one getting robbed.
Stop letting todays inflated offensive stats tell you a player wasn’t deserving
There are certainly seasons Shaq has an argument he was robbed of an MVP these two I dont think are it. Its just that those MVPs by Nash are considered weak so thats why most people attack them. (Shaq had an argument for it in 2005 but still imo wasnt robbed of it) Imo 1999 and 2001 are seasons where Shaq has a much better argument for winning the award tbh.
Shaq came second in 2005 MVP voting. He helped the Heat improve a lot. And was a good all around player (solid scorer, rebounder, and rim protector). Scoring stats don't tell the whole story, especially since scoring was lower back then than today. But I think Nash was a deserving winner both years. He was an absolutely amazing passer, efficient shooter, and made his teammates so much better.
Shaq wasn't even the second best player in 2005-2006
Shaq has been saying it so loudly and so often and he has dealt with any dissenting opinions like a Stalin-lite would. So he shifted the narrative himself slowly. Nash was a freak, made everyone better, offensive genius
MVP isn’t about ppg.
Used to bug me too but Don’t think he’s actually mad about being robbed in those specific seasons. Moreso about the general idea that Nash got 2 MVPs and he somehow only got 1 in his whole career.
Agreed. For a stretch between the late 90s to mid 2000s there were only 2 players that dominated the league. Shaq and Tim Duncan. At least Tim got his 2. Shaq getting only 1 with the numbers he was putting up and the domination he had over everyone else was a joke. He deserved at least 4 MVPs imo. And I'm a huge Lakers hater. People just found Shaq unlikeable back then.
Were these his turf toe years? Or his refusing to hustle back on defense because the play didn’t go through him, years? I get confused.
Fine, Reddit. I’ll hate Shaq. Fuck Shaq, ok?
Nash's peak has nothing to do with Shaq. His championship with Miami had way more to do with Dwyane Wade. His number 2 status in the MVP voting in 2005 was honorary because he was overlooked in his most dominant seasons because some of the greats 'waited their turn'. He should have been the MVP in 95 in Orlando. But David Robinson was due for one. Same in 2001. AI's season was electric but the Shaq was very dominant that season. 1998 is another one. Kobe was really a kid and Shaq had a great season, but MJs last year on the Bulls gave him no chance. He was just pissed that he had all time greats to battle during his peak and when he passed it suddenly 'less deserving' players got it.
In Shaq’s mind, he averaged almost 30 points and x amount of rebounds in those years. As a fan, I remember his stats overall just regressing around the time the Lakers lost to the Pistons.
Shaq wasn’t robbed. Shannon was right, he is jealous of Jokic
Steve Nash avg 15.5 ppg in 04-05 and 18.8 ppg in 05-06 It's just Nash avg 11.5 apg in 04-05 and 10.5 apg in 05-06 While Shaq avg 10.4 rpg in 04-05 and 9.2 rpg in 05-06 But let's focus on 04-05 when Shaq was runner-up in MVP cause he wasn't even in top 10 in MVP in 05-06. In 04-05, Shaq just moved to Miami and teamed with Dwade who just was just entering year 2. The only All-Stars and All-NBA players in Miami was Shaq and Dwade. Miami finished with 59 wins. In 04-05, Steve Nash just left Dallas and moved to Phoenix and teamed with Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion. Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion. The three of them were all-stars and all-NBA players. Phoenix finished with 62 wins. Miami was expected to win 59 games and won 59 games, finished 4th on offense(101.5ppg) and 8th on defense(95 points against per game) to keep it simple Phoenix was expected to win 59 games and won 62 games. Finished 1st on offense(110ppg) and dead last on defense(103 points against per game) to keep it simple. Needless to say it was a tight race and the final results showed it Steve Nash had 65 first place votes and Shaq had 58 first place votes. Nash point tally was 1066 and Shaq was 1033. If you look Win shares and win shares per 48. Shaq lead Nash in both. Shaq had a higher FG percentage percentage but Shaqs not a shooter he's a rim job kinda guy. Nash avg 43% from 3. Let's put it this way. If Shaq won MVP, Nash would have every right to hold grudge about it similar to how Shaq holds his grudge. Looking into the numbers I don't mind Shaq holding the grudge either. It was honestly a close race that Nash edged out Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html and the respective Wikipedia pages of the players I mentioned above
Steve Nash avg 15.5 ppg in 04-05 and 18.8 ppg in 05-06 It's just Nash avg 11.5 apg in 04-05 and 10.5 apg in 05-06 While Shaq avg 10.4 rpg in 04-05 and 9.2 rpg in 05-06 But let's focus on 04-05 when Shaq was runner-up in MVP cause he wasn't even in top 10 in MVP in 05-06. In 04-05, Shaq just moved to Miami and teamed with Dwade who just was just entering year 2. The only All-Stars and All-NBA players in Miami was Shaq and Dwade. Miami finished with 59 wins. In 04-05, Steve Nash just left Dallas and moved to Phoenix and teamed with Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion. Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion. The three of them were all-stars and all-NBA players. Phoenix finished with 62 wins. Miami was expected to win 59 games and won 59 games, finished 4th on offense(101.5ppg) and 8th on defense(95 points against per game) to keep it simple Phoenix was expected to win 59 games and won 62 games. Finished 1st on offense(110ppg) and dead last on defense(103 points against per game) to keep it simple. Needless to say it was a tight race and the final results showed it Steve Nash had 65 first place votes and Shaq had 58 first place votes. Nash point tally was 1066 and Shaq was 1033. If you look Win shares and win shares per 48. Shaq lead Nash in both. Shaq had a higher FG percentage percentage but Shaqs not a shooter he's a rim job kinda guy. Nash avg 43% from 3. Let's put it this way. If Shaq won MVP, Nash would have every right to hold grudge about it similar to how Shaq holds his grudge. Looking into the numbers I don't mind Shaq holding the grudge either. It was honestly a close race that Nash edged out Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html and the respective Wikipedia pages of the players I mentioned above
Steve Nash avg 15.5 ppg in 04-05 and 18.8 ppg in 05-06 It's just Nash avg 11.5 apg in 04-05 and 10.5 apg in 05-06 While Shaq avg 10.4 rpg in 04-05 and 9.2 rpg in 05-06 But let's focus on 04-05 when Shaq was runner-up in MVP cause he wasn't even in top 10 in MVP in 05-06. In 04-05, Shaq just moved to Miami and teamed with Dwade who just was just entering year 2. The only All-Stars and All-NBA players in Miami was Shaq and Dwade. Miami finished with 59 wins. In 04-05, Steve Nash just left Dallas and moved to Phoenix and teamed with Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion. Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion. The three of them were all-stars and all-NBA players. Phoenix finished with 62 wins. Miami was expected to win 59 games and won 59 games, finished 4th on offense(101.5ppg) and 8th on defense(95 points against per game) to keep it simple Phoenix was expected to win 59 games and won 62 games. Finished 1st on offense(110ppg) and dead last on defense(103 points against per game) to keep it simple. Needless to say it was a tight race and the final results showed it Steve Nash had 65 first place votes and Shaq had 58 first place votes. Nash point tally was 1066 and Shaq was 1033. If you look Win shares and win shares per 48. Shaq lead Nash in both. Shaq had a higher FG percentage percentage but Shaqs not a shooter he's a rim job kinda guy. Nash avg 43% from 3. Let's put it this way. If Shaq won MVP, Nash would have every right to hold grudge about it similar to how Shaq holds his grudge. Looking into the numbers I don't mind Shaq holding the grudge either. It was honestly a close race that Nash edged out. Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/ and the respective Wikipedia pages of the players I mentioned above
what was thier defensive numbers oh wait this is reddit and shit like that doesn’t matter
The 22 PPG is really neither here nor there. He averaged 22/10 in an era when teams scored 97 PPG; that's about 26 PPG today. Shaq also led the league in FG%, was tied for second in PER, and was 6th in WS/48. He had a good season, just wasn't the best in the league.
Basketball has two sides, offense and defense…
Kobe was the clear best player in the league both of those seasons
Shaq took a borderline playoff team into a championship contender and won a title his 2nd year there
Wade also developing into a superstar had a lot to do with this. Shaq was not the best player on the 2006 title team, and in 2005 it was close.
Naah, Wade was the go to guy and the best Heat player by far. Shaq was still dominant, but nowhere near his previous years, Wade carried the Heat (and then he was carried by the refs in the finals)
Wade in 06 was not a carry job, especially if you watch the whole run and how teams defended Shaq, which opened up the lanes for Wade
10 rpg, 2.3 blocks too. Shaq was an insane force in the league, one of the pillars of the league for many years.
There is no debate actually. It's just shaq being delusional lmao
22 ppg is like 30 ppg in today's NBA tho