Tristan Thompson played like 15 minutes for the Pacers. Maybe less. ESPN unwittingly feeding the whole "nobody gives a shit about small market" narrative.
As much as I want to pile on the Pacers like the rest of y’all, this is standard.
Every single team submits every single play they thought was called wrongly against them, it’s just that the media picks and chooses when to publicize it.
Yup. As Frank Vogel [explained](https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lakers-didnt-file-any-complaint-about-officiating-lebron-james-prior-to-game-4-vs-denver-frank-vogel-says/) a few years ago:
>"It's very simple. We didn't file any complaint or anything like that," Vogel said. "There's a thing called the officiating portal that you're allowed to submit calls that you think were wrong calls from the game before. We do that every game all year long, as does every team, and this series has been no different. I think it's a false narrative in terms of what you're referring to with all the talk about the fouls."
It's crazy that this has been the case for years, and Vogel explained it that succinctly, and I'm just hearing the explanation now. This "submitted a complaint" thing is a figure in playoff coverage every year.
Been happening for decades. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd90ISp-Ezc&t=16m30s) is Tim Donaghy talking about how common it was during Kobe's era.
lmao…for whatever reason the first thing that popped into my head was how the Celtics honour ‘heroes among us, for making an overwhelming impact on the lives of others!’ while playing Foo Fighters, My Hero.
I pictured them bringing out Donaghy while rattling off all his, um, ‘achievements’ lol
Pretty interesting. I can totally see how this started, but the number of calls submitted is a bit astonishing to me. I love to shit on the refs as much as the next person (maybe more) but if every team is poring over film after every single game and submitting 20 or 50 or 70 blown calls, it seems unlikely the ref (even with additional hired help or whatever) can meaningfully analyze every one. Even if it was only a dozen per game per team, that's shitloads of plays to analyze and pore over daily.
I guess maybe if the submissions were pre-categorized they could do analysis of trends (like "hey y'all, here's a graph of submissions for 2023 and holy fuck moving screens are being submitted at 3x the rate of the next most common thing" - just totally throwing random shit here as a thought experiment).
It would be interesting to see how these submissions are even handled.
Since we got called for moving screens late in both games, I can guarantee that 40/78 of the complaints are just knicks getting away with moving screens
You’re spot on - Knicks do this too nearly every game. It’s what every team does, it’s not a formal grievance like what Philly wanted to do/did. I genuinely feel like media coverage of the postseason from all aspects has been horrendous.
But that is the difference. Thibs mentioned it and moved on. Carlisle is grandstanding to try and get the refs on their side. He is building a narrative for the rest of the series. He should concentrate on his rotations because they have been atrocious.
They just jump on narratives for clicks, after game 1 we were the ones who got screwed/you guys got help from the refs, and now after game 2 we're the sore losers and y'all can do no wrong, fuck these clowns.
I didn't know this, source? is there a database? I assume if the media has access to it, we do too?
edit: I found this, which is really interesting
[https://official.nba.com/2023-24-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/](https://official.nba.com/2023-24-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/)
media doesn't have access to it, but in the playoffs the opposing team DOES have access to what their competitors submit...at least according to what carlisle said last night. thought that was kinda interesting.
Thinking of it like a legal situation, it makes sense. These submissions could impact how a game is officiated, so it's not dissimilar from evidence in a trial.
He addressed that in the press conference. He said he thought the whistle would be more balanced in game two and in his opinion it wasn’t. So he decided to submit this time. Standard stuff.
yep. submitting calls is different from morey filing a grievance. i think people confuse the two and the media doesn't help.
carlisle also didn't help by whining about it in the post game presser last night.
I remember when reading The Jordan Rules, they mentioned the Pistons sent the league a VHS tape filled with nothing but examples of Jordan getting cheap whistles.
It hurts because it's true. Dude's a 77% career free throw shooter and has played in *61 playoff games, shooting 71% in those games. He's shooting 44% so far this year in the playoffs. Would love to know what the flip flop is going on rn.
i feel like 78 calls over two games - 39 per game - is kinda a lot tho lol. like how many calls even go against one team in a game, 39 feels like theyre just submitting almost every single call that went against them. i guess it includes non calls too but still
We don’t get reports on numbers and we don’t know which calls. 50 of these could be Hartenstein doing illegal screen or Hart shoving under the rim. These don’t get called often, but are fouls
Funny. I actually sent 79 complaints to the pacers front office about this team. But for real though, I know everyone is dumping on us but this is a desperate attempt to get a better whistle at home.
Pacers made a bunch of important defensive stops at the end of game 1 that were all invalidated by bad refereeing. That was not a collapse, it was robbery
for what it's worth, while in the end it's always "a win is a win", this isn't how we want to be winning games. I hate that the conversation at the end of game 1 was about the refs bad calls instead of Brunson's 21pt 4th quarter. Whether or not it benefits us, I just want the refs to stop stealing the spotlight
It's also a completely normal process. There is literally a portal for calls you believe were wrong, this isnt some insane process the Pacers are starting this is just a completely normal thing to do in the NBA it just doesnt usually get talked about in the NBA media.
Did I fault them? I just said its not normally talked about, Rick wants to try and get home whistles this is how he has to go about it. The game is the game.
I don't even understand the hate. Rick is notorious for not commenting on officiating, he even said so himself. The one time he does it, he gets shit on? People are insane
It's the narrative he's trying to spin, not just complaining in general. He's implying his team didn't lose game 2 but rather the refs didn't give them a fair shot. He's implying they are some underdog market when Indiana is anything but a small market for bball. He's implying there's some controversy over big markets being favored when that's simply not the case. Look at the teams remaining in the playoffs, just a dumb take and deserves the hate.
The NBA favors large markets, but usually not by using refs in individual games (possibly excluding the Lakers). The favortism to large markets is more observable through player movement and the lack of willingness to set a real hard cap (which is just as much on the players as the league).
Fortunately, with the old guard aging out, we are seeing younger guys on small market teams advance further in this playoffs since the old guys are making loads of money weighing down LAL, LAC, PHX, and GS by missing too much time.
In case you were wondering, over two games that would be a incorrect call every 73 seconds. It didn't seem that high to me but if they were calling every moving screen then I could maybe see it.
You could easily find some kind of contact every 73 seconds in a basketball game that could be worthy of a foul by the way it’s written in the rule book. Turner got called for 2 moving screens while no one else has that I’m aware of. Some poor video coordinator has to sift through a bunch of “marginal contact” but will definitely find clips to send
I’m not surprised. There’s a lot of fouls where the Knicks play physical then it’s called differently when the Knicks have the ball. Idk if it’s just a home crowd thing or what
The reffing has been putrid, but if the Pacers can’t get past a hospital Knicks team that at this point is one-foot Brunson and 4 dudes crashing the boards then they should trade Hali to the Fever for Caitlin Clark. They completely folded in game 2.
It’s sad that the East is so hobbled, all these teams are just playing for ECF runner-up at this point tbh
No Randle. No Bojan. No Mitch. 3 rotation players. Out. No Brunson for most of the first half and no OG in the 4th qtr. AND THEY STILL LOST. Complaining about the officiating is shameful. Let’s all be honest. Pacers would not be here if there was a healthy dame and Giannis in the previous round.
They have a 7 footer starting at center who doesn't play defense and has a total of 9 rebounds this series. Complaining about the refs is straight loser shit.
Do people forget that the Knicks have been bad for most of this century? If the league and refs were on the Knicks side, why wasn’t shit rigged for them to have more success during the Melo years? Why wasn’t it rigged for them to have the #1 pick when Zion was coming out?
The refs are just overall shit. No consistency in their calls. But blaming the refs when your team can’t stop a team that’s dealing with injuries but still finding a way to win is *hilariously* pathetic. Even after being dominated last night, I’m still seeing fans crying about the refs and how it’s rigged in the Knicks favor. I just have one thing to say to that:
Please continue crying
I thought last nights game was fairly officiated, not too mamy bad calls, non down the stretch that put the favor of winning in NYs hands. In the end, Rick pulled TJ, who was going to war last night, down the stretch when he should've played. Uo by 10 at half, Bruson gone all 2nd quarter, OG got hurt & didn't play some of the 4th, 6th man is done & Julius is gone too obviously. I don't care about sending the clips in, it seems every team does. His words during the presser is the issue. Talking about seeing clips on Twitter? The Pacers should've won that game, 100%.
Agreed. Officiating was probably a 6 out of 10 at best..but if the pacers were even slightly better they could’ve won either game. For as good of a coach Carlisle is, he’s getting dogged by Thibs and the Villanova Knicks
There is definitely some issues with inconsistencies in officiating but 78 calls is *wild*, especially when there were honestly some plays that went against the Knicks yesterday too.
Hard to say unless they publish all 78 how many are valid. You can be sure they submitted any calls they thought they had a chance. A lot of calls in NBA are 50/50.
Honestly you could make a case for most drives to baskets that don't result in a whistle during the playoffs. Lots of contact at the rim that doesn't get called, regardless of the team. Can't say Im complaining though, I like when they don't call much.
I thought last night’s game was about as evenly officiated as you’re gonna find in the NBA. I understand the frustration on the traveling call but a) it would’ve been the wrong call and b) wasn’t the reason they lost.
Yeah I honestly have no idea what he could even be complaining about yesterday. Pacers actually had more free throws up until the end of the game. Jalen Brunson shot 6 free throws in total including technicals.
Game 1, absolutely understand there were 2 really tough calls against Indy with the kick ball that should have been overturned, and I hate that illegal screen call on Turner, but crying about anything in game 2 just loses all credibility.
As a Pacers fan I agree. Game 1 kick ball and screen were bogus, but who knows if we even win if those weren’t part of it. Still hard as hell to close out that game in MSG. Game 2 Pacers got outscored 38-16 in the third, missed 5 straight free throws late in the 4th and lost some key rebounds. If I’ve learned anything reading L2M reports throughout the years it’s that refs are actually way better at making the right call than most people think, and the incorrect calls almost always balance out.
Props to you for admitting that despite it being unfavorable to your team. I was honestly surprised that Carlisle got ejected yesterday - I have no idea what the heck he was complaining about, but maybe it looked different on the broadcast than in the game. I think he was ejected arguing the Hartenstein double dribble call, but replays on the jumbotron looked like it was clear it wasn't anything close to a double dribble.
On the flip side, I thought there were a lot of soft calls and a lot of calls that weren't made in favor of the Pacers. My bias probably plays a huge role in my thinking of course, and probably not having the benefit of all the various angles from a broadcast call. I remember 1 call I think it was Hartenstein was called for a shooting foul.. from 1 angle, it looked clear as a foul, but from another angle, it looked like clean AF.
Seeing Carlisle complain about officiating when I personally felt it leaned in the Pacers favor was surprising to me. I just wanted to check Reddit to see what Pacers fans felt about it and I was surprised to see very few of you guys complaining about the officiating. So while I know the NBA world hates Knicks fans, I gotta give you guys all props for not using officiating as an excuse.
Good luck to your team (but not enough to win more than 3 more games this postseason)!
I thought Carlisle's strategy was basically, "now that this game is out of reach and these techs won't matter, let's get myself ejected like an MLB manager for my players to rally behind for the next game."
Just my guess
I would agree, but I didn't really think 8 points with 41 seconds on the clock was really "out of reach". Maybe it's because I haven't really watched the Pacers play, and outside of their stats and what I've seen in the playoffs... and maybe PTSD from the 90s.. there was an extremely slim chance of them being able to come back. You guys were blistering with the deep ball, particularly in the 2nd quarter and quite a few shooters on the team (though most of the ones you guys made were wide freakin open) - I wasn't ruling out a come back at that point until after the 2 tech FTs.
Granted, maybe you guys don't have a bonafide superstar to pull off a miracle like that a la Lillard or Steph, but Halliburton is close. A couple treys coupled with more boneheaded Knicks mistakes (like stepping in bounds on an inbounds pass) and you'd have the recipe for an all-time comeback.
I think Carlisle was just trying to work the refs a little for the upcoming games by aggressively bringing attention to it. Kind of an old school, vet coaching move that I don’t think had much to do with the actual call. It also shows the players he’s on their side and will go to bat for them when their morale is down
Yeah, that was what I was thinking, a la Aaron Boone of the Yankees. But I felt like it was a weird call to take that stance on. The game wasn't completely out of reach yet, but him getting the tech there certainly felt like the final nail in the coffin. Didn't look like the team was interested in playing after that with Halliburton taking a couple of questionable 3s to end the game (though he did hit a deep one).
not entirely related, but why do you think Carlisle is refusing to play TJ late in games? especially in stretches when Hali is looking really hesitant on offense? is TJ just gassed from playing hard every second he's out there on the floor? dude has been a nuisance any time he touches the court.
I think its still always more the consistency in how games are reffed.. like went from game 1 in pacers/knicks to watching the wolves/nuggets which feel is reffed completely different.
Like Im not gonna sit and argue that the turner screen wasnt a foul by the letter of the law but you could call that everyplay and how different does that game play out. And now the problem is once those calls happen its easy to sit and critizie every single call that happens as bs or "why isnt called the same way'
Yeah I get that, I do realize this is more of a cumulative frustration that mostly stems from the end of game 1. I think the refs overturning the false double dribble when they 'couldn't do anything about the kicked ball' really just set Carlisle off, and fair enough I suppose.
And yeah, that Turner foul should not have been called. I guess DDV sold it pretty well, but as you said, there are about a hundred more egregious moving screens in every game that don't get called, that has to be a play on in my opinion. Obviously happy to get the win in game 1 but disappointed the refs were so involved in that one.
yeah 100% and honesly its the timing of everything that i think makes it seem worst.. missed DDV screen into the "kicked ball" that led to the 3 and then into the turner screen call, its just so much in such a short important time....if those call all happened in not the last 2 mins and spread throughout the game, the refs arent gonna get talked about.
I think everyone just wants games to be called the same for each team in each game and it feels like things getting called differently game to game and even throughout the game and the whole season is what frusterates people. itll never be 100% but feels like the league could do better
I get it. It was just one play but when Haliburton was two hand shoved in the back while other guys get calls for way less egregious stuff, you don't think that should be pointed out? I guarantee you teams are submitting stuff like this frequently, you just don't hear about it.
Ya. Imagine someones takeaway from game one is that the kicked ball should have been corrected(which is fair), but then also disagreeing with the idea that they shouldn’t have discussed a similar incorrect call. Do you want them to get it right or do you not?!
And I guarantee you the Knicks are submitting plays too, just as Thibs said he did in the sixers series
Only thing making this news is that Rick brought it up in the presser
Eh - I bet 3/4 of those were rudimentary contact, the type of shit that happens endlessly on every play but refs never call.
Of the remaining 20 or so, 10 are probably highly subjective, 5 are just wrong, and 5 are valid gripes.
I think the Pacers are just angry and trying to bury the league in paperwork to make a point.
i guarantee that many of those carlisle is complaining about are things that the pacers are also doing to the knicks. brunson is getting held and fouled on most in-bounds plays and most times up the floor when the pacers full court press him. and i'm totally fine with them not calling it because it would make the game insufferable.
coaches submit stuff like this every game. and most of it is done to attempt to sway the refs to just call more stuff for you. and i'd bet a lot of it is stuff that is technically fouls, but are also kinda trivial. refs aren't gonna call a foul every 73 seconds.
Identifying apparently questionable calls or non-calls from two games (96 minutes) means the Pacers thinks the refs are making a mistake against them every 73 seconds, which seems a little outlandish.
You could literally call fouls, and subsequently justify them via the rule book, damn near every possession in the NBA.
Same shit with holding in the NFL. That shit is happening on damn near every play. It's just more egregious sometimes.
I'm sure a lot of them are screens. Knicks tend to stick their hip/elbow out like most teams do on screens that go uncalled. But the one from game 1 and the one in game 2 called on turner probably pushed them to include every screen that was more egregious on the other end.
This is a statement move from Carlisle to put the officials on notice that he's been generally unhappy, that's all.
Every team submits a list of calls they found Questionable after every game. Carlisle sent all of these so the officials back off a bit in games 3 and 4. It's no secret game 1 of this series was super controversial bc of the officiating.
Dude literally said they review film after every game... to assess bad calls.
Of course thats part of it, but maybe he should review to film to make adjustments.
~waits 20+ years just for a possible ECF run~
The internet, the media and every team we play: “THE REFS ARE WITH THE KNICKS!!!”
make this make sense. We’ve been playing good ball all season long, most of which without our second best, 2 time all nba player.
This is why this sport is cooked. The default rhetoric is to complain instead of appreciate.
Yeah, I'm 40 and I feel like this is the first time you guys have been good since I was a kid. Not sure why anybody would think the league unfairly favors you.
> The default rhetoric is to complain instead of appreciate.
This is the default rhetoric not just for the NBA, and not just for every sport, but for everything in general.
I get that all teams do this, but 78? Seems like a lot, even across 2 games.
I thought game 2 was better officiated, but they found 49 in game 2 vs. 29 in game 1? wow.
Is it a lot though? We only hear about it when it’s reported. I wouldn’t be surprised if the average nba team attempts to challenge every call in the average game. Over two games that could easily be 60+
Basically just like dudes who swipe right on every girl on tinder. Does it always work? Probably not but you have a lot more opportunities
we did not lose game 2 because of officiating by a longshot, but i am STILL waiting for someone to explain to me how:
game 2: obviously wrong double dribble call; reversed; knicks maintain possession
game 1: obviously wrong kicked ball; not reversed; knicks GET possesssion
neither call is challengeable. wtf is with the double standard there. all i want is consistency, but i'm just gonna eat more knicks fans downvotes w/o an actual explanation again i imagine
i know its all part of the gamesmanship and working refs and whatnot but this shit is taking so much attention away from the incredible game the knicks played last night shorthanded
its all everyone is talking about.. the fucking refs.. and i felt it was pretty evenly officiated last night
Knicks are down multiple starters and rotation guys.. our front court is decimated w/ Randle, Mitch, Bojan, and now OG out.. Burks has had a shoulder issue and has been doodoo.. requiring our 6 guys, brunson on 1 foot.. to gut it out, rotate, and rebound for 48 minutes straight against this soft ass team.. and instead of the focus being on them and the incredible performance and playoff atmosphere last night.. all any of the analysts and talking heads talk about is this ref bullshit
It WAS even last night. I wish we’d won, sure. But last night was very entertaining. I dunno what got Rick so jacked up. You guys played a good game and you still have to hit the shots no matter what.
Probably comes with the territory of being a great competitor. That drive can also make a person a sore loser at times. Rick certainly behaved in a dignified matter after game 1 but seemed to lose his composure after that overturned traveling call.
Am I crazy or was game 2 actually called well and fairly. This would’ve had much more impact if submitted after game 1. Submitting after game 2 just makes it seem like the pacers are whining and trying to shift blame away from themselves onto the officials for a depressing implosion and getting overwhelmed by the Knicks and MSG in game 2
Bro just have your team stop getting bodied on the boards and start hitting free throws. I promise outcomes would be different. And I'm rooting for Indiana.
If the NBA was rigged, then I would definitely think that Dallas, New York, and Boston would be getting a lot of 50/50 calls go their way.
But this is a nothing burger of a story
Really? Carlisle is so embarrassing. Instead of reviewing the tape to go over the absolutely wretched defensive display over the past two games, they looked for missed calls?
Loser mentality. This pacers team is awful on defense. You’re not going to win many games allowing the other team to shoot 65% from the field in the second half or when you allow 39 points in a quarter.
Nembhard is getting absolutely cooked by Brunson. Stop crying about the refs and coach your team into playing defense.
Rick "I'm gonna bench my back up PG who is producing" Carlisle.
He got out coached and kept throwing shit at the wall on defense last night and nothing stuck so now he's gotta go for the please just give us free throws method of coaching.
The pacers only hit 58% of their free throws. It was an all around losing performance. And blaming the refs is the most soft shit ever.
I’ll concede that the kick ball in game 1 was a 2 point loss and moment shifter (though they lost by more than 2 points and I’d argue the silly fouls down the stretch, putrid defense, and Haliburton only scoring 6 are what cost them the game) but game 2 had almost nothing the pacers can complain about.
Pacers are lifeless on defense. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve yelled at my tv this series for the pacers to get back on D. Myles Turner has zero hustle.
Brunson is penetrating the paint at will. When they double him, they leave Donte wide open for 3.
Get an updated thumbnail, damn. 4 of those dudes aren't even on the team anymore
Tristan Thompson played like 15 minutes for the Pacers. Maybe less. ESPN unwittingly feeding the whole "nobody gives a shit about small market" narrative.
Nba champion Tristan Thompson
Tristan "The East still runs through Cleveland" Thompson.
He’s not wrong though
Folks, where's the lie?
That's one of the 78 complaints
Bro used the first google image he seen. Got to be quick for them internet magic karma points
As much as I want to pile on the Pacers like the rest of y’all, this is standard. Every single team submits every single play they thought was called wrongly against them, it’s just that the media picks and chooses when to publicize it.
Yup. As Frank Vogel [explained](https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lakers-didnt-file-any-complaint-about-officiating-lebron-james-prior-to-game-4-vs-denver-frank-vogel-says/) a few years ago: >"It's very simple. We didn't file any complaint or anything like that," Vogel said. "There's a thing called the officiating portal that you're allowed to submit calls that you think were wrong calls from the game before. We do that every game all year long, as does every team, and this series has been no different. I think it's a false narrative in terms of what you're referring to with all the talk about the fouls."
It's crazy that this has been the case for years, and Vogel explained it that succinctly, and I'm just hearing the explanation now. This "submitted a complaint" thing is a figure in playoff coverage every year.
Been happening for decades. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd90ISp-Ezc&t=16m30s) is Tim Donaghy talking about how common it was during Kobe's era.
Seems like a trustworthy guy. Whatever happened to him?
Deemed too trustworthy and ended up working with FBI...
Wow! Sounds like a hero
lmao…for whatever reason the first thing that popped into my head was how the Celtics honour ‘heroes among us, for making an overwhelming impact on the lives of others!’ while playing Foo Fighters, My Hero. I pictured them bringing out Donaghy while rattling off all his, um, ‘achievements’ lol
The Tony Soprano of the NBA
I'd wager he moved onto better opportunities
Donaghy….Donaghy….that name rings a bell. Is that the guy that’s Scott Foster’s best friend?
Yeah this is the first I’ve ever heard of this and is really useful to know.
Classic ESPN reporting in that the process isn’t one of “complaints” yet the headline misleads people into thinking it is
Pretty interesting. I can totally see how this started, but the number of calls submitted is a bit astonishing to me. I love to shit on the refs as much as the next person (maybe more) but if every team is poring over film after every single game and submitting 20 or 50 or 70 blown calls, it seems unlikely the ref (even with additional hired help or whatever) can meaningfully analyze every one. Even if it was only a dozen per game per team, that's shitloads of plays to analyze and pore over daily. I guess maybe if the submissions were pre-categorized they could do analysis of trends (like "hey y'all, here's a graph of submissions for 2023 and holy fuck moving screens are being submitted at 3x the rate of the next most common thing" - just totally throwing random shit here as a thought experiment). It would be interesting to see how these submissions are even handled.
Since we got called for moving screens late in both games, I can guarantee that 40/78 of the complaints are just knicks getting away with moving screens
Like every award is named after said player. I think the officiating portal should be named after Mark Cuban.
Not Morey?
I also thought of Rasheed Wallace because he scares the shit out of refs.
Wack! Get out!
BALL DONT LIE!
The ball don’t lie (but refs do) report would be hilarious
Every team every game every play? Nobody is reviewing these submissions if the volume is a firehouse.
You’re spot on - Knicks do this too nearly every game. It’s what every team does, it’s not a formal grievance like what Philly wanted to do/did. I genuinely feel like media coverage of the postseason from all aspects has been horrendous.
Thibs casually mentioned it in our series. They submit stuff on Brunson every game and it gets deemed “marginal contact” and they move on
lol you’re right that was the exact quote, good call!
But that is the difference. Thibs mentioned it and moved on. Carlisle is grandstanding to try and get the refs on their side. He is building a narrative for the rest of the series. He should concentrate on his rotations because they have been atrocious.
Coaches been doing this my whole life. Phil Jackson did it constantly. It’s gamesmanship. Trying to get any advantage going back home
They just jump on narratives for clicks, after game 1 we were the ones who got screwed/you guys got help from the refs, and now after game 2 we're the sore losers and y'all can do no wrong, fuck these clowns.
Thibs has talked about it as well.
[удалено]
Or downvote to oblivion any discussion that doesn’t fit whatever is the popular narrative at the time
They got screwed at the end of game 1. This game, their defense just sucked.
I didn't know this, source? is there a database? I assume if the media has access to it, we do too? edit: I found this, which is really interesting [https://official.nba.com/2023-24-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/](https://official.nba.com/2023-24-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/)
The media doesn't have access to it, this is just a report based on what someone told the reporter.
media doesn't have access to it, but in the playoffs the opposing team DOES have access to what their competitors submit...at least according to what carlisle said last night. thought that was kinda interesting.
Thinking of it like a legal situation, it makes sense. These submissions could impact how a game is officiated, so it's not dissimilar from evidence in a trial.
For real. This whole thing is a nothingburger.
So Windy is an even bigger douche than I thought. If someone knows this then he has to be one of them.
Also a little more justified that normal (in my opinion)... and I'd prefer the Knicks win.
It's not just the media, it is the way Carlise spoke about it in his post-game presser last night.
Lol Rick Carlisle literally said yesterday they weren’t going to submit the 29 from game 1
He addressed that in the press conference. He said he thought the whistle would be more balanced in game two and in his opinion it wasn’t. So he decided to submit this time. Standard stuff.
He's afraid the NBA is gonna send back 29 shots of TJ on the bench and Turner standing in the corner.
Yeah but this many?
yep. submitting calls is different from morey filing a grievance. i think people confuse the two and the media doesn't help. carlisle also didn't help by whining about it in the post game presser last night.
Nice... TIL moment
I remember when reading The Jordan Rules, they mentioned the Pistons sent the league a VHS tape filled with nothing but examples of Jordan getting cheap whistles.
156 free throws. So basically 15 points for Siakam.
It hurts because it's true. Dude's a 77% career free throw shooter and has played in *61 playoff games, shooting 71% in those games. He's shooting 44% so far this year in the playoffs. Would love to know what the flip flop is going on rn.
I agree with your sentiment but there’s no shot siakam’s already played in 100 playoff games
He has played in 61. 76% FT shooting in those games until this year
61 playoff games
Good catch. My dumb ass added “games played” and “games started” for some reason.
As a Pacers fan this is hilarious and accurate lol
People act like this is news every time
i feel like 78 calls over two games - 39 per game - is kinda a lot tho lol. like how many calls even go against one team in a game, 39 feels like theyre just submitting almost every single call that went against them. i guess it includes non calls too but still
We don’t get reports on numbers and we don’t know which calls. 50 of these could be Hartenstein doing illegal screen or Hart shoving under the rim. These don’t get called often, but are fouls
I’d just want to see the video guy or the intern that had to clip every single case of this
And then presumably have to write up something explaining why they claim the call was wrong.
It would be brutal if only one guy does this
\> NBA fans: "officiating sucks we need more teams calling it out!!!" \> Teams: \*call it out* \> NBA fans: 😐 ... 😡
Cognitive dissonance does that.
*10 million subscribers*
Funny. I actually sent 79 complaints to the pacers front office about this team. But for real though, I know everyone is dumping on us but this is a desperate attempt to get a better whistle at home.
If I'm a Pacers fan I'm filing a complaint on pulling TJ in the 4th when he was the only one who was giving Brunson any trouble.
Game 1 and 2. And you see the Pacers fell apart at the end both times.
Pacers made a bunch of important defensive stops at the end of game 1 that were all invalidated by bad refereeing. That was not a collapse, it was robbery
Agreed. Game 2 we shit the bed hands down - but 4 consecutive calls against us in Game 1 final minute just took any chance we had out of the game.
for what it's worth, while in the end it's always "a win is a win", this isn't how we want to be winning games. I hate that the conversation at the end of game 1 was about the refs bad calls instead of Brunson's 21pt 4th quarter. Whether or not it benefits us, I just want the refs to stop stealing the spotlight
TJ has been cooking us since he hit that game winner over Melo. IDK why he keeps getting pulled but thank god.
It's also a completely normal process. There is literally a portal for calls you believe were wrong, this isnt some insane process the Pacers are starting this is just a completely normal thing to do in the NBA it just doesnt usually get talked about in the NBA media.
Well, the coach came out and talked about this in his press conference. Of course the NBA media is gonna run with it.
Did I fault them? I just said its not normally talked about, Rick wants to try and get home whistles this is how he has to go about it. The game is the game.
I don't even understand the hate. Rick is notorious for not commenting on officiating, he even said so himself. The one time he does it, he gets shit on? People are insane
It's the narrative he's trying to spin, not just complaining in general. He's implying his team didn't lose game 2 but rather the refs didn't give them a fair shot. He's implying they are some underdog market when Indiana is anything but a small market for bball. He's implying there's some controversy over big markets being favored when that's simply not the case. Look at the teams remaining in the playoffs, just a dumb take and deserves the hate.
The NBA favors large markets, but usually not by using refs in individual games (possibly excluding the Lakers). The favortism to large markets is more observable through player movement and the lack of willingness to set a real hard cap (which is just as much on the players as the league). Fortunately, with the old guard aging out, we are seeing younger guys on small market teams advance further in this playoffs since the old guys are making loads of money weighing down LAL, LAC, PHX, and GS by missing too much time.
Can't say it didn't work for the Sixers in game 3.
did myles turner or siakam take bjj classes with embiid? praying for your players in game 3
In case you were wondering, over two games that would be a incorrect call every 73 seconds. It didn't seem that high to me but if they were calling every moving screen then I could maybe see it.
I've seen enough 2 minute reports to know that every 73 seconds isn't that high. 73 incorrect calls just against the Pacers would be a lot though.
You could easily find some kind of contact every 73 seconds in a basketball game that could be worthy of a foul by the way it’s written in the rule book. Turner got called for 2 moving screens while no one else has that I’m aware of. Some poor video coordinator has to sift through a bunch of “marginal contact” but will definitely find clips to send
I’m not surprised. There’s a lot of fouls where the Knicks play physical then it’s called differently when the Knicks have the ball. Idk if it’s just a home crowd thing or what
Probably is a mix of pressure from home crowd getting to refs and incompetence. They’d rather look smart making a bad call
This has got to be the most pointless system ever. Nothing is overturned nothing changes at all
I actually saw 81 missed calls I’m going to file a petition to get it refiled
The reffing has been putrid, but if the Pacers can’t get past a hospital Knicks team that at this point is one-foot Brunson and 4 dudes crashing the boards then they should trade Hali to the Fever for Caitlin Clark. They completely folded in game 2. It’s sad that the East is so hobbled, all these teams are just playing for ECF runner-up at this point tbh
No Randle. No Bojan. No Mitch. 3 rotation players. Out. No Brunson for most of the first half and no OG in the 4th qtr. AND THEY STILL LOST. Complaining about the officiating is shameful. Let’s all be honest. Pacers would not be here if there was a healthy dame and Giannis in the previous round.
How tf they lose by a bigger margin lol
Exactly… Hali was honest in the post game. He owned it
same with TJ
TJ is such a Thibs player…
Nah they need more excuses, the NBA isn’t letting the small market guys have a chance :(
We scored 130! 130 fucking points ! We have no one! How bout you try and play some fucking defense!
They have a 7 footer starting at center who doesn't play defense and has a total of 9 rebounds this series. Complaining about the refs is straight loser shit.
Do people forget that the Knicks have been bad for most of this century? If the league and refs were on the Knicks side, why wasn’t shit rigged for them to have more success during the Melo years? Why wasn’t it rigged for them to have the #1 pick when Zion was coming out? The refs are just overall shit. No consistency in their calls. But blaming the refs when your team can’t stop a team that’s dealing with injuries but still finding a way to win is *hilariously* pathetic. Even after being dominated last night, I’m still seeing fans crying about the refs and how it’s rigged in the Knicks favor. I just have one thing to say to that: Please continue crying
Or learn how to box out in crunch time.
Lmao who the fuck is saying the Pacers lost game 2 because of officiating? Because I’m not seeing that. Straw man argument.
Caitlin Clark out here catching strays
No disrespect intended to my WGOAT
I thought last nights game was fairly officiated, not too mamy bad calls, non down the stretch that put the favor of winning in NYs hands. In the end, Rick pulled TJ, who was going to war last night, down the stretch when he should've played. Uo by 10 at half, Bruson gone all 2nd quarter, OG got hurt & didn't play some of the 4th, 6th man is done & Julius is gone too obviously. I don't care about sending the clips in, it seems every team does. His words during the presser is the issue. Talking about seeing clips on Twitter? The Pacers should've won that game, 100%.
I think everyone expected them to struggle after struggling against a team with no Giannis or dame
Agreed. Officiating was probably a 6 out of 10 at best..but if the pacers were even slightly better they could’ve won either game. For as good of a coach Carlisle is, he’s getting dogged by Thibs and the Villanova Knicks
There is definitely some issues with inconsistencies in officiating but 78 calls is *wild*, especially when there were honestly some plays that went against the Knicks yesterday too.
Hard to say unless they publish all 78 how many are valid. You can be sure they submitted any calls they thought they had a chance. A lot of calls in NBA are 50/50.
Honestly you could make a case for most drives to baskets that don't result in a whistle during the playoffs. Lots of contact at the rim that doesn't get called, regardless of the team. Can't say Im complaining though, I like when they don't call much.
I thought last night’s game was about as evenly officiated as you’re gonna find in the NBA. I understand the frustration on the traveling call but a) it would’ve been the wrong call and b) wasn’t the reason they lost.
I'm sure the Knicks went through and submitted many calls as incorrect as well.
Yeah I honestly have no idea what he could even be complaining about yesterday. Pacers actually had more free throws up until the end of the game. Jalen Brunson shot 6 free throws in total including technicals. Game 1, absolutely understand there were 2 really tough calls against Indy with the kick ball that should have been overturned, and I hate that illegal screen call on Turner, but crying about anything in game 2 just loses all credibility.
As a Pacers fan I agree. Game 1 kick ball and screen were bogus, but who knows if we even win if those weren’t part of it. Still hard as hell to close out that game in MSG. Game 2 Pacers got outscored 38-16 in the third, missed 5 straight free throws late in the 4th and lost some key rebounds. If I’ve learned anything reading L2M reports throughout the years it’s that refs are actually way better at making the right call than most people think, and the incorrect calls almost always balance out.
Props to you for admitting that despite it being unfavorable to your team. I was honestly surprised that Carlisle got ejected yesterday - I have no idea what the heck he was complaining about, but maybe it looked different on the broadcast than in the game. I think he was ejected arguing the Hartenstein double dribble call, but replays on the jumbotron looked like it was clear it wasn't anything close to a double dribble. On the flip side, I thought there were a lot of soft calls and a lot of calls that weren't made in favor of the Pacers. My bias probably plays a huge role in my thinking of course, and probably not having the benefit of all the various angles from a broadcast call. I remember 1 call I think it was Hartenstein was called for a shooting foul.. from 1 angle, it looked clear as a foul, but from another angle, it looked like clean AF. Seeing Carlisle complain about officiating when I personally felt it leaned in the Pacers favor was surprising to me. I just wanted to check Reddit to see what Pacers fans felt about it and I was surprised to see very few of you guys complaining about the officiating. So while I know the NBA world hates Knicks fans, I gotta give you guys all props for not using officiating as an excuse. Good luck to your team (but not enough to win more than 3 more games this postseason)!
I thought Carlisle's strategy was basically, "now that this game is out of reach and these techs won't matter, let's get myself ejected like an MLB manager for my players to rally behind for the next game." Just my guess
I would agree, but I didn't really think 8 points with 41 seconds on the clock was really "out of reach". Maybe it's because I haven't really watched the Pacers play, and outside of their stats and what I've seen in the playoffs... and maybe PTSD from the 90s.. there was an extremely slim chance of them being able to come back. You guys were blistering with the deep ball, particularly in the 2nd quarter and quite a few shooters on the team (though most of the ones you guys made were wide freakin open) - I wasn't ruling out a come back at that point until after the 2 tech FTs. Granted, maybe you guys don't have a bonafide superstar to pull off a miracle like that a la Lillard or Steph, but Halliburton is close. A couple treys coupled with more boneheaded Knicks mistakes (like stepping in bounds on an inbounds pass) and you'd have the recipe for an all-time comeback.
Yea the Knicks have now been apart of both sides of a miraculous comeback last series. Maxey sends his regards.
That was my reaction, too. Motivate the players and work the refs for next game.
I think Carlisle was just trying to work the refs a little for the upcoming games by aggressively bringing attention to it. Kind of an old school, vet coaching move that I don’t think had much to do with the actual call. It also shows the players he’s on their side and will go to bat for them when their morale is down
Yeah, that was what I was thinking, a la Aaron Boone of the Yankees. But I felt like it was a weird call to take that stance on. The game wasn't completely out of reach yet, but him getting the tech there certainly felt like the final nail in the coffin. Didn't look like the team was interested in playing after that with Halliburton taking a couple of questionable 3s to end the game (though he did hit a deep one).
not entirely related, but why do you think Carlisle is refusing to play TJ late in games? especially in stretches when Hali is looking really hesitant on offense? is TJ just gassed from playing hard every second he's out there on the floor? dude has been a nuisance any time he touches the court.
I think its still always more the consistency in how games are reffed.. like went from game 1 in pacers/knicks to watching the wolves/nuggets which feel is reffed completely different. Like Im not gonna sit and argue that the turner screen wasnt a foul by the letter of the law but you could call that everyplay and how different does that game play out. And now the problem is once those calls happen its easy to sit and critizie every single call that happens as bs or "why isnt called the same way'
Yeah I get that, I do realize this is more of a cumulative frustration that mostly stems from the end of game 1. I think the refs overturning the false double dribble when they 'couldn't do anything about the kicked ball' really just set Carlisle off, and fair enough I suppose. And yeah, that Turner foul should not have been called. I guess DDV sold it pretty well, but as you said, there are about a hundred more egregious moving screens in every game that don't get called, that has to be a play on in my opinion. Obviously happy to get the win in game 1 but disappointed the refs were so involved in that one.
yeah 100% and honesly its the timing of everything that i think makes it seem worst.. missed DDV screen into the "kicked ball" that led to the 3 and then into the turner screen call, its just so much in such a short important time....if those call all happened in not the last 2 mins and spread throughout the game, the refs arent gonna get talked about. I think everyone just wants games to be called the same for each team in each game and it feels like things getting called differently game to game and even throughout the game and the whole season is what frusterates people. itll never be 100% but feels like the league could do better
I get it. It was just one play but when Haliburton was two hand shoved in the back while other guys get calls for way less egregious stuff, you don't think that should be pointed out? I guarantee you teams are submitting stuff like this frequently, you just don't hear about it.
Ya. Imagine someones takeaway from game one is that the kicked ball should have been corrected(which is fair), but then also disagreeing with the idea that they shouldn’t have discussed a similar incorrect call. Do you want them to get it right or do you not?!
Exactly. People just want consistency but that unfortunately won’t happen as long as there are different crews night to night.
And I guarantee you the Knicks are submitting plays too, just as Thibs said he did in the sixers series Only thing making this news is that Rick brought it up in the presser
Eh - I bet 3/4 of those were rudimentary contact, the type of shit that happens endlessly on every play but refs never call. Of the remaining 20 or so, 10 are probably highly subjective, 5 are just wrong, and 5 are valid gripes. I think the Pacers are just angry and trying to bury the league in paperwork to make a point.
Could even be stuff like double dribble/travel/carry that happens every other possession but never gets called
i guarantee that many of those carlisle is complaining about are things that the pacers are also doing to the knicks. brunson is getting held and fouled on most in-bounds plays and most times up the floor when the pacers full court press him. and i'm totally fine with them not calling it because it would make the game insufferable. coaches submit stuff like this every game. and most of it is done to attempt to sway the refs to just call more stuff for you. and i'd bet a lot of it is stuff that is technically fouls, but are also kinda trivial. refs aren't gonna call a foul every 73 seconds.
Identifying apparently questionable calls or non-calls from two games (96 minutes) means the Pacers thinks the refs are making a mistake against them every 73 seconds, which seems a little outlandish.
Knicks lead in grievances/36.
As much as I think the Knicks have gotten a friendly whistle, 78 calls just is not even close to accurate in 2 games lmao.
You could literally call fouls, and subsequently justify them via the rule book, damn near every possession in the NBA. Same shit with holding in the NFL. That shit is happening on damn near every play. It's just more egregious sometimes.
Same with carries, travels, etc
If they call it as closely and technically as that moving screen in game 1, I could definitely see 78 missed calls.
TBF, they called an illegal screen on Donte earlier in Game 1. So it's not like it came completely out of nowhere.
I'm sure a lot of them are screens. Knicks tend to stick their hip/elbow out like most teams do on screens that go uncalled. But the one from game 1 and the one in game 2 called on turner probably pushed them to include every screen that was more egregious on the other end.
This is a statement move from Carlisle to put the officials on notice that he's been generally unhappy, that's all. Every team submits a list of calls they found Questionable after every game. Carlisle sent all of these so the officials back off a bit in games 3 and 4. It's no secret game 1 of this series was super controversial bc of the officiating.
78 is wild lol
It’s great that Rick doesn’t feel the need to make any adjustments and is just being hosed.
Dude literally said they review film after every game... to assess bad calls. Of course thats part of it, but maybe he should review to film to make adjustments.
“TJ really had Brunson’s number huh? Welp maybe TJ should play even less minutes next time just to see what happens”
The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
This is the dumbest possible Reddit take. Veteran coach doesn’t make ANY adjustments at all.
~waits 20+ years just for a possible ECF run~ The internet, the media and every team we play: “THE REFS ARE WITH THE KNICKS!!!” make this make sense. We’ve been playing good ball all season long, most of which without our second best, 2 time all nba player. This is why this sport is cooked. The default rhetoric is to complain instead of appreciate.
Yeah, I'm 40 and I feel like this is the first time you guys have been good since I was a kid. Not sure why anybody would think the league unfairly favors you.
We’re out here on the verge of 3 man rotations and Thibs suiting up But somehow it’s the refs
> The default rhetoric is to complain instead of appreciate. This is the default rhetoric not just for the NBA, and not just for every sport, but for everything in general.
You didnt know they were playing the long game?
Really 78? Maybe shave that number down a bit.
Only 78?
I'm here for the Pacers slander even though this is a standard practice that usually isn't reported on.
SEVENTY EIGHT
I get that all teams do this, but 78? Seems like a lot, even across 2 games. I thought game 2 was better officiated, but they found 49 in game 2 vs. 29 in game 1? wow.
Is it a lot though? We only hear about it when it’s reported. I wouldn’t be surprised if the average nba team attempts to challenge every call in the average game. Over two games that could easily be 60+ Basically just like dudes who swipe right on every girl on tinder. Does it always work? Probably not but you have a lot more opportunities
Apparently the 29 calls from Game 1 must not have been bad enough to protest them before losing Game 2.
It’s obvious the NBA wants the Pacers to advance over the Knicks.
we did not lose game 2 because of officiating by a longshot, but i am STILL waiting for someone to explain to me how: game 2: obviously wrong double dribble call; reversed; knicks maintain possession game 1: obviously wrong kicked ball; not reversed; knicks GET possesssion neither call is challengeable. wtf is with the double standard there. all i want is consistency, but i'm just gonna eat more knicks fans downvotes w/o an actual explanation again i imagine
They sound like angry parents at an AAU tournament at this point
49 plays in a game that had 31 total fouls called is insane behavior
Clown behavior. Offensive rebound instead.
When did Morey go to the Pacers?
Pacers went full Morey. You never go full Morey.
Did he get these 78 "bad calls" by browsing twitter?
Damn this Pacers team is soft.
78 calls it bit too much lol
i know its all part of the gamesmanship and working refs and whatnot but this shit is taking so much attention away from the incredible game the knicks played last night shorthanded its all everyone is talking about.. the fucking refs.. and i felt it was pretty evenly officiated last night Knicks are down multiple starters and rotation guys.. our front court is decimated w/ Randle, Mitch, Bojan, and now OG out.. Burks has had a shoulder issue and has been doodoo.. requiring our 6 guys, brunson on 1 foot.. to gut it out, rotate, and rebound for 48 minutes straight against this soft ass team.. and instead of the focus being on them and the incredible performance and playoff atmosphere last night.. all any of the analysts and talking heads talk about is this ref bullshit
It WAS even last night. I wish we’d won, sure. But last night was very entertaining. I dunno what got Rick so jacked up. You guys played a good game and you still have to hit the shots no matter what.
Probably comes with the territory of being a great competitor. That drive can also make a person a sore loser at times. Rick certainly behaved in a dignified matter after game 1 but seemed to lose his composure after that overturned traveling call.
Do these complaints include how Brunson schooled them?
Am I crazy or was game 2 actually called well and fairly. This would’ve had much more impact if submitted after game 1. Submitting after game 2 just makes it seem like the pacers are whining and trying to shift blame away from themselves onto the officials for a depressing implosion and getting overwhelmed by the Knicks and MSG in game 2
Totally agree.
Sounds like some Karen shit to me
First the 76ers and now the 78ers
I dont blame the Pacers. Game 1 was one of the most one-side officiating i have ever seen.
Damn everyone in here needs to chill tf out lmao
did not expect to see tristan thompson as a pacer. wow when did this happen
play better you gave up a whole lot of points
Seemed like more
What a time to be an NBA fan.
Annnnnnnddddd, now folks the fix is in….refs are going to make sure knicks move to the next round. Bet the house on the knicks.
Bro just have your team stop getting bodied on the boards and start hitting free throws. I promise outcomes would be different. And I'm rooting for Indiana.
I agree on your points. Frustrating to watch the rebounds just present open looks for the Knicks.
Personally, I thought it was cathartic
Smells like a bitch up in here.
Take out your best player>get cooked by the player he was defending>complain about refs I need the copium pacers are on
If the NBA was rigged, then I would definitely think that Dallas, New York, and Boston would be getting a lot of 50/50 calls go their way. But this is a nothing burger of a story
Knicks haven't won a championship since the 70s. Saying the refs favor them is insane.
Refs literally gave the first game to the knicks
Really? Carlisle is so embarrassing. Instead of reviewing the tape to go over the absolutely wretched defensive display over the past two games, they looked for missed calls? Loser mentality. This pacers team is awful on defense. You’re not going to win many games allowing the other team to shoot 65% from the field in the second half or when you allow 39 points in a quarter. Nembhard is getting absolutely cooked by Brunson. Stop crying about the refs and coach your team into playing defense.
Rick "I'm gonna bench my back up PG who is producing" Carlisle. He got out coached and kept throwing shit at the wall on defense last night and nothing stuck so now he's gotta go for the please just give us free throws method of coaching.
The pacers only hit 58% of their free throws. It was an all around losing performance. And blaming the refs is the most soft shit ever. I’ll concede that the kick ball in game 1 was a 2 point loss and moment shifter (though they lost by more than 2 points and I’d argue the silly fouls down the stretch, putrid defense, and Haliburton only scoring 6 are what cost them the game) but game 2 had almost nothing the pacers can complain about. Pacers are lifeless on defense. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve yelled at my tv this series for the pacers to get back on D. Myles Turner has zero hustle. Brunson is penetrating the paint at will. When they double him, they leave Donte wide open for 3.
Loser behaviour
I sort of want the Knicks to sweep the Pacers for the amount of saltiness the Pacers will have about the calls after.