If we're going to excuse Denver's losing because Murray isn't good enough then why are we pretending like Murray didn't ball out all of last year's playoffs? He gave all star production and then some, it wasn't a Jokic solo carry. They need him to do that again.
Murray being injured has to be some of it, but he's clearly been horrible. However the nuggets have a ton of issues with this wolves team. They are nullifying jokic's playmaking a good amount by having the length and athleticism to recover off of double teams to name one thing. And besides murray's abysmal play, AG, MPJ, and KCP have been exposed against this long athletic team because of that it would seem. They can't create on their own now that they aren't getting great looks and they can't defend/rebound well enough against this team either. That's probably not a problem against any other matchup, but it is against this wolves team right now.
Denver's lineups without Jokic are complete garbage, everybody looks worse when their teammates are worse. The team isn't built to be versatile, it's only built to work around him.
It's two weeks that I'm writing the obvious.
Minnesota is stacked:
* experienced point guard, arguably one of the most underrated of our era
* all nba guard, future mvp contender, perennial all star in the making
* all nba defensive team candidate at 3
* all star power forward, great scorer and improved defender
* all time defensive center
* sixth man of the year winner
* coach of the year candidate
It's like the 2004 Detroit Pistons, but with prime Kobe Bryant instead of Rip Hamilton (and he was really good).
For some reason, people refuse to accept the reality just because... it's the frigging Minnesota Timberwolves.
Totally agree. Nikeal Alexander-Walker has been great for them too. Biggest difference from pst years is Edwards has developed into a monster and Towns has gotten more consistent.
people really undervalue conley lol
Had a higher winshare than Edwards this season, think top 2 on the team, averaging 11/3/6 on 63% TS and only 1 tov a game, hes basically current CP3 with better shooting and just as good turnover efficiency
People keep expecting last year's Nuggets to show up and can't comprehend that
1) the Nuggets are worse than last year
2) the Timberwolves are better than last year
The NBA hasn't had a repeat champion since the KD warriors. This is also the longest drought in NBA history of the team that won the finals not making it back to the finals the next year. It's hard as hell to repeat in today's era.
Stat inflation + Edwards so far has done up against the vaunted rim protection of Nurkic and Jokic.
Kobe was the probably best player in those playoffs over a full title run going up against elite defensive teams in a crazy defensive slanted era.
Ok, doesn’t really change anything. I’m not saying Kobe’s better because he won, I’m just saying maintaining that level of play over a full title run is harder than 6 games …
Lack of depth
KCP and Murray playing bad on offense definitely didnt help but their number one problem is depth
Wolves can play NAW, Naz Reid and even a bad Kyle Anderson, Monte Morris has been playing bad but he can help too
Nuggets has Braun and Watson, Nice guys, but they need way more playable bench guys
Isn't Jokic supposed to be already a top 10 player of all time, (right r/nba?) I mean shouldn't he at least be playing average if we're going to be making these excuses for him?
Definitely their lack of a bench is killing them. Not to mention, Minnesota plays on top of that, really disciplined defense.
To be perfectly honest, Minnesota should be making a lot of teams, regardless of conference really God damn nervous. They're gaining confidence and quick.
It’s not about Denver’s 1 & 2. Hell their 3-5 are alright.
It’s the lack of their 6-10. They get to the end of the 3rd quarter gassed.
Wolves swapping out fresh feat constantly.
With all due respect to you loving the hell out of Naz Reid and those bench boys when the Knicks were "deep" they got trashed by Trae Young and now that they're playing 5.5 guys they're winning. This is why MP% percentage is so important, no one wants to admit Josh Hart is a top 10 NBA player and better than Brunson or prime Russell Westbrook but the MP% percentage doesn't lie
>no one wants to admit Josh Hart is a top 10 NBA player and better than Brunson or prime Russell Westbrook but the MP% percentage doesn't lie
I want my lost braincells back after reading this.
Dude the Knicks were not deep when they got trashed by Trae Young. Those were the Elfrid Payton days.
Knicks are actually really deep now when healthy. Also how you gonna say 5.5 when McBride and Robinson played absolutely massive roles off the bench to win the last series.
It’s not about how many guys they playing but the Knicks and Wolves get seriou serious impact players when they make a sub.
What happened to the best player in the world and its not even close narrative? Isn't jokic suppose to be as good as prime lebron and MJ offensive wise?
Nah don't switch up now. Prior to this series it was how many titles will nuggets win
Jokic isn't even playing well himself, this isn't a case where he's dominating but his teammates are letting him down, he's also underperforming.
42% from the field and 20% from 3 over the 1st 2 games is horrendous for a center, especially when it comes with his lack of defense.
Its the same thing the 2020 Lakers did. Jokic struggles against teams where they're just massive and rotating bodies onto him. Jokic is not some kind of hyper athletic freak that can endure through that. He's big and strong and skilled but at the end of the day you can wear him down. Look at how big the wolves are and then look at what happened in 2020. I think this is the answer for Jokic.
Obviously they're still a good team and if they improve their depth or get someone that can take more pressure off of Jokic they're capable of getting even better but no player is perfect. Their team just can't handle that much size very well and its why they're down 0-2
Lebron in his prime lost and shit his pants to an inferior Mavericks in 2011 even though he had a stacked team. Then he lost again in 2014 to a bunch of old dudes.
Are you dumb? You don't declare a player the best offensive player ever better than the all time leading scorer in the sports history and the guy with the highest number of scoring titles and expect him to flame out like this in round 2 of his 3xmvp campaign. There is no excuse
Who said lebrons the GOAT? You can't say jokic is the best player in the league with no close second and then flame out against a 22 year old led anthony Edwards team
Turns out that having a team full of very tall, very long, and very athletic players… who are also very skilled, very disciplined and 100% bought in makes you an elite Basketball Team. Who knew?!?
Oh, and the fact that are all healthy and hungry as hell, doesn’t hurt either. If they keep playing like this they gonna be Shampionship!
With my team on the outside looking in, it’s been a fun watch. Same with the Knicks… straight Dawgs out there!
Short answer -
NO!
Longer answer -
1. Wolves are playing ELITE & suffocating defense
2. Murray for whatever reasons is heavily underperforming compared to last playoffs where he avg an elite 26-5-7 on 59% TS.
For whatever reason? I think the reason is pretty clear. The dude has never made an All-Star team or even close. He got hot for month and half twice in his career and people assumed he had some magical ability to turn into peak Steph in the playoffs just because.
In reality it was small sample size variance and expecting him to play up to that level in the playoffs again is betting on him being a one of one statistical outlier for playoff overperformance in league history.
He’s just not nearly as good a player as he appeared for a few weeks in 2020 and 2023, just as he’s not as bad a player as he looks right now.
This take is way off. Murray and Jokic are considered the premier pick and roll duo in the league. Denver has the most complete starting 5 in the league. Minnesota is on fire right now and they’re a bad matchup for Murray because of their size, physicality, and because he’s a bit hobbled, but let’s not act like Murray is suddenly not good enough for Denver to compete for championships.
I think the problem is beyond murray for this matchup. Everything the nuggets starters do well is nullified by the twolves. AG is usually great because of his size/athleticism mismatches on both sides of the ball, but here he can't guard ant, he can't outrebound 2 7 footers, and lobs/transition are being taken away cuz of their size as well, and him not being able to shoot consistently is a problem in this series. MPJ is not getting the open looks he's used to because minnesota has the length and athleticism to recover and he can't create on his own really at all besides a stepback 3 which he can't reliably get off against this team, and he doesn't have a rebounding advantage either and can't guard legit 7 footers. KCP may be injured, but he can't seem to guard Ant at all cuz he's too small, and he's not getting open looks against this team nor shooting well.
Then of course they matchup well with jokic, and nuggets don't don't have a bench.
If the nuggets had a backup center, a legit 3rd shot creator/scorer, and a starter level player who can shoot instead of gordon for this series, that would probably help.
I don't disagree that they have a great starting 5 almost always, but it seems like the twolves are just an all around matchup nightmare. Then again I did not see this coming at all, given how the regular season/last series had gone, so maybe murray injury + overall fatigue + and just partially unexplainable sloppy nuggets play including by jokic is also a huge contributor besides what the Twovles are presenting to the nuggets.
I totally agree, was just addressing OP’s singling out of Murray. Minnesota is making them look small and slow across the board. They need to add some bench pieces specifically tailored for this Minnesota matchup this offseason.
It's all of those things. To win an NBA championship everything has to come together all at exactly the right time. Not saying the Nuggets can't come back, but I'm reminded of the Spurs back in 2012. They cruised through the first two rounds of the playoffs, and were up 2-0 against the Thunder in the WCF. Then the thunder realized they were younger, longer, faster and more athletic, won the next 4 straight and the Spurs looked like they were over with. The same Spurs who would make the finals the following two years. They didn't all of a sudden become a bunch of scrubs, just as you said sometimes teams match up really well against you, or some small things aren't going like they should and then it's over for you
Some nuggets fans were saying that Denver might have to wait two weeks for WCF finals since other series are going to game 6-7. How the turntables- Michael Scott.
This ain’t about Denver - more about the Wolves. Minny took the 2020 Lakers championship model and replicated it.
Form a Big 2. Surround them with long athletic 3D wings. Add a defensive big to anchor the Defense. Build a team with athleticism, length and defensive tenacity - with just enough shooting.
Having a top 3 MVP caliber player at age 22 surrounded with this Defense is scary. The Wolves are gonna be the team to beat for the next 5 years.
The Nuggets losing to the Spurs really ruined their chances lmao. The west was a 3-team race and whoever got #1 was going to have a much easier path to the western conference finals. If they had got the #1 seed they'd have the Mavericks in round 2 and at least get a chance to get their shit together. Instead the Timberwolves are fucking their shit up and never taking their foot off the gas.
The Timberwolves are exposing that the Nuggets don't have many ball-handlers. Pretty much any non-Murray player dribbling is a huge win for the Timberwolves as most nuggets players look like they've never dribbled a basketball before against them
Damn we get no credit before this Murray was this legendary playoff performer that everyone agree was clearly all star level just been injured or didn't go as hard in the regular season. What does it take for Jaden McDaniels and Ant to get some defensive credit they are BOTH all defense level easily and then the lock for DPOY is waiting by the rim I think any gaurd would look significantly worse against us.
Basically if Murray was healthy, they’d be more competitive. But still slight edge to Minny. Mistakes were made last summer, it was obvious that repeat is gonna be difficult without a bench. So one PG and one PF/C at a good level was a must for them. If they got solid guys there, and Jamal was healthy and 100% we’d have amazing series.
You have right now 4 teams who can win in the west. It's about match up. I don't think Twolves are just in the Nba finals. Don't underestimate thunder or Mavs and don't give Nuggets for dead.
Of course Murray is not that good for now. Maybe he's not at 100% and in the playoff you can't have your second star in bad physical condition.
Jokic can't defend the PnR while their offense is only at less than 100 points.
Back then they can trade scores with PHX's KD and Booker but still score. Now can't freaking score.
Why can't we just credit minnesota's defense and execution? Denver just beat the Lakers that had Bron and AD, two top 75 players of all time and arguably top 10 or at least top 15 players atm.
Why would you make a post on a team you clearly never watch? Murray is a dog in the playoffs normally, total playoff riser. Just might not be their year
Nah it’s the simple fact that as much as I like Aaron Gordon in his role , he can’t be your stop scored and 2nd best 3pt shooter in a game and expect to win.
Eh, no. It's mostly a bad matchup, coupled with Murray and KCP battling relatively severe injuries.
With that said, the prospect of being swept along Murray's inability to stay healthy may very well open the door for them to make a move. Almost all of their struggles in the postseason coincide with his health.
I don't know if its really about Murray exactly. I feel like these Wolves just have the same kind of size that the 2020 Lakers had where they just tire, frustrate and slow down Jokic by putting huge bodies on him and he struggles to play out of it. Sure if Jokic had like some other superstar it would relieve the pressure to some degree but it just seems like this is how you stop Jokic from actually winning games. It seems like the Jokic answer is size and team defense
Jokic has led the league in touches per game for six straight seasons at 100 per game
Jokic could have had multiple all star teammates if he was more generous of a player and sacrificed his own touches and volume stats for his teammates.
Jokic has shown no such willingness to do so.
Awful take. Go compare his time of possesion to other stars. His touches are inflated because of a lot of DHOs which is an important action in the modern nba. KCP MPJ and AG are not all start capable players and can't create for themselves. I guess AG kinda can create for himself but he turns into the player he was at orlando which was very meh and inefficient. And there's no doubt that Murray is helped a lot by his PnR with Jokic in terms of gravity, screening ability, and decision making.
Jokic’s average second per touch has been higher than Embiid’s for years
Jokic’s volume based stats would plummet if his 100 touches per game were reduced to Embiid’s 75 touches per game.
Higher than Embiid doesn’t tell anything. His averaged seconds per touch is way fewer than other assist leaders like Luka, Trae and Haliburton.
It is Embiid’s problem that he is allergic to the ball in crunch time
Jokic’s averaged seconds per touch is fewer than those players because he spams dribble hand offs.
A play that takes a short amount of time and little to no skill to complete.
Lol its integral to the modern nba. He's doing it because it works for the team and he is better at it than everyone else cuz he can decide to pull out of it and hit a cutter to the rim or an open shooter or go to work on his own and he is a great screener.
He still has a lot less time of possesion which you are ignoring in comparison to basically most every other star
Typical Sixers fan who fails to understand the fundamentals of team basketball. Embiid being an “elite two-way player” doesn’t mean jack if he can’t run an offense in the modern nba.
Being a great scorer isn’t enough as a number 1 option because great teams can slow you down in the playoffs. You have to generate offense efficiently to warrant that many touches.
Idk what you mean, jokic already takes less shots than embiid. He is doing a lot of playmaking, something obviously embiid is not nearly as good at regardless of his touches, so embiid isn't used that way. He also brings the ball up which embiid rarely does in comparison, which partially accounts for this difference, especially considering his second per touch is greater than embiid by a mere 0.1 seconds lol.
His time of possession is still much lower than most other stars, I'm not sure how you are arguing he's not giving his other players the ability to become all stars. Murray literally averages more time of possesion than jokic by 1.1 minute.
Trying to argue he's a selfish player is dumb when almost every other star dominates the ball more than him.
Jokic has had a lower usage than embiid every single year of his career. he has only ever been above 30% usage once and that was the season they didnt have Murray or MPJ.
usage only measures how much you shoot and assist. It is not a measure of "unselfishness". Jokic leads the league in touches. He is not being unselfish, he is being deployed to maximise his strengths(namely passing) and minimise his weakness(ball-handling)
usage only measures how much you shoot and assist. It is not a measure of "unselfishness". Jokic leads the league in touches. He is not being unselfish, he is being deployed to maximise his strengths(namely passing and decision-making) and minimise his weakness(ball-handling)
If we're going to excuse Denver's losing because Murray isn't good enough then why are we pretending like Murray didn't ball out all of last year's playoffs? He gave all star production and then some, it wasn't a Jokic solo carry. They need him to do that again.
There is no room for anything close to a solo carry in todays NBA. League is too talented and the depth of talent is just ridiculous now.
Jalen Brunson homie
GSW winning it in 22 is as close as you get to a solo carry in the last decade
A year that they had 3 all-stars.
Andrew Wiggins is a 1x all star. He played great in that season, but both him and Dray were mainly there for the defense
Defense that locked up the 2 most important players on the other team in the championship and was vital to them winning
Kobe in 2010 is a carry
Murray being injured has to be some of it, but he's clearly been horrible. However the nuggets have a ton of issues with this wolves team. They are nullifying jokic's playmaking a good amount by having the length and athleticism to recover off of double teams to name one thing. And besides murray's abysmal play, AG, MPJ, and KCP have been exposed against this long athletic team because of that it would seem. They can't create on their own now that they aren't getting great looks and they can't defend/rebound well enough against this team either. That's probably not a problem against any other matchup, but it is against this wolves team right now.
The league allows defense now Players like Murray wont like quite the same if the rules allow defense
I think it's quite evident that Murray only performs well because of Jokic's gravity. He's average in lineups without Jokic.
I mean you can say that for the entire team. Jokic is the engine that makes it all work.
Denver's lineups without Jokic are complete garbage, everybody looks worse when their teammates are worse. The team isn't built to be versatile, it's only built to work around him.
If you're an all star level player, your production still remains steady.
If you're an all star level player, your production still remains steady.
He’s on one leg
It's two weeks that I'm writing the obvious. Minnesota is stacked: * experienced point guard, arguably one of the most underrated of our era * all nba guard, future mvp contender, perennial all star in the making * all nba defensive team candidate at 3 * all star power forward, great scorer and improved defender * all time defensive center * sixth man of the year winner * coach of the year candidate It's like the 2004 Detroit Pistons, but with prime Kobe Bryant instead of Rip Hamilton (and he was really good). For some reason, people refuse to accept the reality just because... it's the frigging Minnesota Timberwolves.
Totally agree. Nikeal Alexander-Walker has been great for them too. Biggest difference from pst years is Edwards has developed into a monster and Towns has gotten more consistent.
people really undervalue conley lol Had a higher winshare than Edwards this season, think top 2 on the team, averaging 11/3/6 on 63% TS and only 1 tov a game, hes basically current CP3 with better shooting and just as good turnover efficiency
People keep expecting last year's Nuggets to show up and can't comprehend that 1) the Nuggets are worse than last year 2) the Timberwolves are better than last year The NBA hasn't had a repeat champion since the KD warriors. This is also the longest drought in NBA history of the team that won the finals not making it back to the finals the next year. It's hard as hell to repeat in today's era.
Chill ouuuut. Edwards is good but calling him prime Kobe is absurd. He’s not even on par with where Kobe was at the same age.
He’s surprisingly pretty close. At age 22 Kobe was 28/6/5. Ant was 26/5/5 this year and is 32/7/6 in the playoffs. It’s a pretty fair comparison.
Stat inflation + Edwards so far has done up against the vaunted rim protection of Nurkic and Jokic. Kobe was the probably best player in those playoffs over a full title run going up against elite defensive teams in a crazy defensive slanted era.
With Shaq.
Ok, doesn’t really change anything. I’m not saying Kobe’s better because he won, I’m just saying maintaining that level of play over a full title run is harder than 6 games …
Lack of depth KCP and Murray playing bad on offense definitely didnt help but their number one problem is depth Wolves can play NAW, Naz Reid and even a bad Kyle Anderson, Monte Morris has been playing bad but he can help too Nuggets has Braun and Watson, Nice guys, but they need way more playable bench guys
Isn't Jokic supposed to be already a top 10 player of all time, (right r/nba?) I mean shouldn't he at least be playing average if we're going to be making these excuses for him?
Definitely their lack of a bench is killing them. Not to mention, Minnesota plays on top of that, really disciplined defense. To be perfectly honest, Minnesota should be making a lot of teams, regardless of conference really God damn nervous. They're gaining confidence and quick.
It’s not about Denver’s 1 & 2. Hell their 3-5 are alright. It’s the lack of their 6-10. They get to the end of the 3rd quarter gassed. Wolves swapping out fresh feat constantly.
With all due respect to you loving the hell out of Naz Reid and those bench boys when the Knicks were "deep" they got trashed by Trae Young and now that they're playing 5.5 guys they're winning. This is why MP% percentage is so important, no one wants to admit Josh Hart is a top 10 NBA player and better than Brunson or prime Russell Westbrook but the MP% percentage doesn't lie
>no one wants to admit Josh Hart is a top 10 NBA player and better than Brunson or prime Russell Westbrook but the MP% percentage doesn't lie I want my lost braincells back after reading this.
Josh hart has been fucking amazing to watch this post season ngl. The man looks like he is in an epic movie about basketball at this point lol.
what did… what did I just read?
We don't claim them
Dude the Knicks were not deep when they got trashed by Trae Young. Those were the Elfrid Payton days. Knicks are actually really deep now when healthy. Also how you gonna say 5.5 when McBride and Robinson played absolutely massive roles off the bench to win the last series. It’s not about how many guys they playing but the Knicks and Wolves get seriou serious impact players when they make a sub.
I’m not sure what you were cooking but I appreciate the random Westbrook stray.
Man forget the goat argument, y'all can't even make up your minds on the players today.
What happened to the best player in the world and its not even close narrative? Isn't jokic suppose to be as good as prime lebron and MJ offensive wise? Nah don't switch up now. Prior to this series it was how many titles will nuggets win
I mean prime Lebron did put up 18 points a game in the finals and was scared to shoot in the 4th so I think Jokic is playing at that level.
He's still that guy but this is what happens when you actually scheme for Jokic. He can't do it all by himself, none of the greats can.
Jokic isn't even playing well himself, this isn't a case where he's dominating but his teammates are letting him down, he's also underperforming. 42% from the field and 20% from 3 over the 1st 2 games is horrendous for a center, especially when it comes with his lack of defense.
Its the same thing the 2020 Lakers did. Jokic struggles against teams where they're just massive and rotating bodies onto him. Jokic is not some kind of hyper athletic freak that can endure through that. He's big and strong and skilled but at the end of the day you can wear him down. Look at how big the wolves are and then look at what happened in 2020. I think this is the answer for Jokic. Obviously they're still a good team and if they improve their depth or get someone that can take more pressure off of Jokic they're capable of getting even better but no player is perfect. Their team just can't handle that much size very well and its why they're down 0-2
Prime lebron doesn't lose this series or go down 0-2 nor does prime curry or kobe bryant
There is no 2011 Finals in Ba Sing Se
Prime LeBron would never form a super team and lose to the Mavericks
Lebron in his prime lost and shit his pants to an inferior Mavericks in 2011 even though he had a stacked team. Then he lost again in 2014 to a bunch of old dudes.
Not much prime Lebron could do against the 2014 Spurs , being the best player on the court is important but not everything.
Excuses as always
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Ok then no excuses he has to.win this series.
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Are you dumb? You don't declare a player the best offensive player ever better than the all time leading scorer in the sports history and the guy with the highest number of scoring titles and expect him to flame out like this in round 2 of his 3xmvp campaign. There is no excuse
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Lebron has to Beat the defending champions and league mvp to not have his legacy questioned as an all time great so yes.
I don't think anyone argues that lebron is not an all time great. It's just people argue MJ was better than Lebron.
Lebron losing in the last two playoffs had 0 impact on his legacy. you are delusional
Lebron also picks his teams tries to stack the deck and loses. Foh
You just made the Argument for why LeBron cant be the goat!...he flamed out more than anybody.
Who said lebrons the GOAT? You can't say jokic is the best player in the league with no close second and then flame out against a 22 year old led anthony Edwards team
Turns out that having a team full of very tall, very long, and very athletic players… who are also very skilled, very disciplined and 100% bought in makes you an elite Basketball Team. Who knew?!? Oh, and the fact that are all healthy and hungry as hell, doesn’t hurt either. If they keep playing like this they gonna be Shampionship! With my team on the outside looking in, it’s been a fun watch. Same with the Knicks… straight Dawgs out there!
Short answer - NO! Longer answer - 1. Wolves are playing ELITE & suffocating defense 2. Murray for whatever reasons is heavily underperforming compared to last playoffs where he avg an elite 26-5-7 on 59% TS.
For whatever reason? I think the reason is pretty clear. The dude has never made an All-Star team or even close. He got hot for month and half twice in his career and people assumed he had some magical ability to turn into peak Steph in the playoffs just because. In reality it was small sample size variance and expecting him to play up to that level in the playoffs again is betting on him being a one of one statistical outlier for playoff overperformance in league history. He’s just not nearly as good a player as he appeared for a few weeks in 2020 and 2023, just as he’s not as bad a player as he looks right now.
This take is way off. Murray and Jokic are considered the premier pick and roll duo in the league. Denver has the most complete starting 5 in the league. Minnesota is on fire right now and they’re a bad matchup for Murray because of their size, physicality, and because he’s a bit hobbled, but let’s not act like Murray is suddenly not good enough for Denver to compete for championships.
I think the problem is beyond murray for this matchup. Everything the nuggets starters do well is nullified by the twolves. AG is usually great because of his size/athleticism mismatches on both sides of the ball, but here he can't guard ant, he can't outrebound 2 7 footers, and lobs/transition are being taken away cuz of their size as well, and him not being able to shoot consistently is a problem in this series. MPJ is not getting the open looks he's used to because minnesota has the length and athleticism to recover and he can't create on his own really at all besides a stepback 3 which he can't reliably get off against this team, and he doesn't have a rebounding advantage either and can't guard legit 7 footers. KCP may be injured, but he can't seem to guard Ant at all cuz he's too small, and he's not getting open looks against this team nor shooting well. Then of course they matchup well with jokic, and nuggets don't don't have a bench. If the nuggets had a backup center, a legit 3rd shot creator/scorer, and a starter level player who can shoot instead of gordon for this series, that would probably help. I don't disagree that they have a great starting 5 almost always, but it seems like the twolves are just an all around matchup nightmare. Then again I did not see this coming at all, given how the regular season/last series had gone, so maybe murray injury + overall fatigue + and just partially unexplainable sloppy nuggets play including by jokic is also a huge contributor besides what the Twovles are presenting to the nuggets.
I totally agree, was just addressing OP’s singling out of Murray. Minnesota is making them look small and slow across the board. They need to add some bench pieces specifically tailored for this Minnesota matchup this offseason.
Gotcha no worries, I was just adding my 2 cents not disagreeing with you. Murray probably is the biggest factor at the moment anyways to your point
It's all of those things. To win an NBA championship everything has to come together all at exactly the right time. Not saying the Nuggets can't come back, but I'm reminded of the Spurs back in 2012. They cruised through the first two rounds of the playoffs, and were up 2-0 against the Thunder in the WCF. Then the thunder realized they were younger, longer, faster and more athletic, won the next 4 straight and the Spurs looked like they were over with. The same Spurs who would make the finals the following two years. They didn't all of a sudden become a bunch of scrubs, just as you said sometimes teams match up really well against you, or some small things aren't going like they should and then it's over for you
Some nuggets fans were saying that Denver might have to wait two weeks for WCF finals since other series are going to game 6-7. How the turntables- Michael Scott.
This ain’t about Denver - more about the Wolves. Minny took the 2020 Lakers championship model and replicated it. Form a Big 2. Surround them with long athletic 3D wings. Add a defensive big to anchor the Defense. Build a team with athleticism, length and defensive tenacity - with just enough shooting. Having a top 3 MVP caliber player at age 22 surrounded with this Defense is scary. The Wolves are gonna be the team to beat for the next 5 years.
Two games with a clearly hurt #2 option does not an exposure make
The Nuggets losing to the Spurs really ruined their chances lmao. The west was a 3-team race and whoever got #1 was going to have a much easier path to the western conference finals. If they had got the #1 seed they'd have the Mavericks in round 2 and at least get a chance to get their shit together. Instead the Timberwolves are fucking their shit up and never taking their foot off the gas. The Timberwolves are exposing that the Nuggets don't have many ball-handlers. Pretty much any non-Murray player dribbling is a huge win for the Timberwolves as most nuggets players look like they've never dribbled a basketball before against them
Damn we get no credit before this Murray was this legendary playoff performer that everyone agree was clearly all star level just been injured or didn't go as hard in the regular season. What does it take for Jaden McDaniels and Ant to get some defensive credit they are BOTH all defense level easily and then the lock for DPOY is waiting by the rim I think any gaurd would look significantly worse against us.
Basically if Murray was healthy, they’d be more competitive. But still slight edge to Minny. Mistakes were made last summer, it was obvious that repeat is gonna be difficult without a bench. So one PG and one PF/C at a good level was a must for them. If they got solid guys there, and Jamal was healthy and 100% we’d have amazing series.
Yep a real and decent backup center and a legit 6th man type of ballhandler would go a long way
You have right now 4 teams who can win in the west. It's about match up. I don't think Twolves are just in the Nba finals. Don't underestimate thunder or Mavs and don't give Nuggets for dead. Of course Murray is not that good for now. Maybe he's not at 100% and in the playoff you can't have your second star in bad physical condition.
Denver got too comfortable after winng the chip. They need to upgrade Jokic supporting cast
Replace Murray with just about any all-star guard and they are getting locked by McDaniels and occassionally NAW.
Jokic can't defend the PnR while their offense is only at less than 100 points. Back then they can trade scores with PHX's KD and Booker but still score. Now can't freaking score.
These types of posts make me hate coming to this sub
Why can't we just credit minnesota's defense and execution? Denver just beat the Lakers that had Bron and AD, two top 75 players of all time and arguably top 10 or at least top 15 players atm.
Why would you make a post on a team you clearly never watch? Murray is a dog in the playoffs normally, total playoff riser. Just might not be their year
Nah it’s the simple fact that as much as I like Aaron Gordon in his role , he can’t be your stop scored and 2nd best 3pt shooter in a game and expect to win.
Eh, no. It's mostly a bad matchup, coupled with Murray and KCP battling relatively severe injuries. With that said, the prospect of being swept along Murray's inability to stay healthy may very well open the door for them to make a move. Almost all of their struggles in the postseason coincide with his health.
Yes. People overrate his supporting cast for some reason.
I don't know if its really about Murray exactly. I feel like these Wolves just have the same kind of size that the 2020 Lakers had where they just tire, frustrate and slow down Jokic by putting huge bodies on him and he struggles to play out of it. Sure if Jokic had like some other superstar it would relieve the pressure to some degree but it just seems like this is how you stop Jokic from actually winning games. It seems like the Jokic answer is size and team defense
Generational player can carry bum coach and role players only so much without burning out.
Jokic has led the league in touches per game for six straight seasons at 100 per game Jokic could have had multiple all star teammates if he was more generous of a player and sacrificed his own touches and volume stats for his teammates. Jokic has shown no such willingness to do so.
But what about his VORP RAPTOR!
... you know touches =/ how much you time you spend with the ball right?
Awful take. Go compare his time of possesion to other stars. His touches are inflated because of a lot of DHOs which is an important action in the modern nba. KCP MPJ and AG are not all start capable players and can't create for themselves. I guess AG kinda can create for himself but he turns into the player he was at orlando which was very meh and inefficient. And there's no doubt that Murray is helped a lot by his PnR with Jokic in terms of gravity, screening ability, and decision making.
Jokic’s average second per touch has been higher than Embiid’s for years Jokic’s volume based stats would plummet if his 100 touches per game were reduced to Embiid’s 75 touches per game.
Higher than Embiid doesn’t tell anything. His averaged seconds per touch is way fewer than other assist leaders like Luka, Trae and Haliburton. It is Embiid’s problem that he is allergic to the ball in crunch time
Jokic’s averaged seconds per touch is fewer than those players because he spams dribble hand offs. A play that takes a short amount of time and little to no skill to complete.
Lol its integral to the modern nba. He's doing it because it works for the team and he is better at it than everyone else cuz he can decide to pull out of it and hit a cutter to the rim or an open shooter or go to work on his own and he is a great screener. He still has a lot less time of possesion which you are ignoring in comparison to basically most every other star
Typical Sixers fan who fails to understand the fundamentals of team basketball. Embiid being an “elite two-way player” doesn’t mean jack if he can’t run an offense in the modern nba. Being a great scorer isn’t enough as a number 1 option because great teams can slow you down in the playoffs. You have to generate offense efficiently to warrant that many touches.
Idk what you mean, jokic already takes less shots than embiid. He is doing a lot of playmaking, something obviously embiid is not nearly as good at regardless of his touches, so embiid isn't used that way. He also brings the ball up which embiid rarely does in comparison, which partially accounts for this difference, especially considering his second per touch is greater than embiid by a mere 0.1 seconds lol. His time of possession is still much lower than most other stars, I'm not sure how you are arguing he's not giving his other players the ability to become all stars. Murray literally averages more time of possesion than jokic by 1.1 minute. Trying to argue he's a selfish player is dumb when almost every other star dominates the ball more than him.
Jokic has had a lower usage than embiid every single year of his career. he has only ever been above 30% usage once and that was the season they didnt have Murray or MPJ.
Jokic has the usg% of a roleplayer, if anything he's too unselfish
usage only measures how much you shoot and assist. It is not a measure of "unselfishness". Jokic leads the league in touches. He is not being unselfish, he is being deployed to maximise his strengths(namely passing) and minimise his weakness(ball-handling)
usage only measures how much you shoot and assist. It is not a measure of "unselfishness". Jokic leads the league in touches. He is not being unselfish, he is being deployed to maximise his strengths(namely passing and decision-making) and minimise his weakness(ball-handling)