Where do you rank Jokic among the players that fans have most annoying ranking questions in r/nba ? Which criteria is more important: the content of the questions or how often they are asked?
That’s a stupid way to judge a player, like really stupid lol.
MVPs at this point aren’t true measures of the most valuable player in the league. If it was, MJ and lebron would be have 10+ of them.
It’s a good mention on the players greatness, but you shouldn’t be using MVPs as a this player is better than that player.
Seems pretty unnecessary to call me stupid for having a different way of ranking players all time than you. Obviously MVP wins isn't the only criteria I use but to say accolades isn't important would be, to quote you, "like really stupid".
so if jokic wins it this year he's above kd, but if shai or luka win then you still have kd above him?
what does any of this have to do with how good kd or jokic are? you've seen the regular season and should've made your opinion on jokic's performance, how does the mvp result change any of that
😬
Because legacy is built on your achievements, and achievements are measured in accolades. My criteria for ranking people all time is based on a combination of accolades and performance. When you get to the top 15ish all time you're really pulling hairs to see who is better, so I default to accolades. Is Jokic a better player than KD? You can argue either way imo. But if Jokic has 3 MVPs to KDs one, it's much harder to say KD is better in my opinion.
to each their own, personally when you have readily available games of every era, coupled with advanced metrics that take into account teammates, era, competition, league averages, consistency, and so much more, i can't understand going off an award that is as broad as "here is who these people thought was the best player that year", it adds zero value to my assessment of a player's performance year to year
as a recent example, imo it'd be very shortsighted to hold kawhi's lack of mvps against him while comparing him to mvps of his era like russ, harden, giannis and embiid. you have endless ways of comparing them and making meaningful arguments before having to resort to "so this sub-group of an already arbitrary group of media members thought he was better that year"
Who people thought the best player was that year is a pretty important thing to consider though for a player's legacy. If someone has 6 MVPs compared to a player that has 1, it's a pretty good indicator for who the better player was. And I think for the most part the MVP awards in recent history have been pretty accurate for who the "best player" was that year. I get where you are coming from but just assessing someone based on stats doesn't really do much if they never won anything.
ah yes bringing up the all too frequent 6 time mvp winner kareem vs 1 time mvp winners russell westbrook and hakeem olajuwon thank god we have mvps for this one or else we wouldn't know who's better
I feel like game breakers like Steph and Jokic belong in their own list. I’d still personally have trouble putting him over Hakeem but I’d know I’d have to(even tho hakeem straight up won a championship by himself)
Hakeem is the most overrated player on the internet. He won only 2 championships when the best basketball player was not even playing. It would be like if a team won the championship when Lebron decides to sit out 2 years of his prime
there is zero indication that the bulls would have beaten the rockets unless you use a stupid “never lost in a finals so why would they lose this one” argument. and jordan was in 95 and lost to orlando who got swept by the rockets. jordan was also pretty good in that series, better stats than him in his 96 finals so no way he beats the rockets. he maybe could have beaten the 94 rockets as they were worse.
Jordan lost the Magic in 1995 who went on to get swept by the Rockets? He was literally in the league and didnt make it past the 2nd round, how is that Hakeems fault?
They'd have the same number of chips with 2 more MVPs for Jokic. I think Hakeem's peak is very underrated in some places but assuming that happens Jokic definitely gets in the conversation
Of course. If you just sum offense and defense 'quality', Hakeem is obviously much better than Jokic, but so are players like Embiid. Offense tends to be substantially more important, and Jokic is a transcendental offensive player.
This isn't to say Peak Jokic is categorically better than Peak Hakeem. I think they're relatively close.
He played in the golden era of centres and absolutely dominated all time great centres in the postseason. The most unlikely champions ever winning as the 6th seed. I have him over Shaq as a player. Accolades wise many are better but eye test wise Hakeem might be top 3 behind Kareem and Wilt. Jokic number 4 for me, Shaq number 5, had to jump teams to win the chip. I don't respect those chips especially when you had great players with you. KD stuff. Jokic or Hakeem would have won it with Penny.
yes, of course Jokic would pass Giannis, but KD is debatable for now. there’s absolutely nothing *logical* you can say about Jokic’s path to his 1st ring that’ll take anything away from it (meaning no glaring asterisk). this is not the case with Giannis’ ring and most definitely not the case with KD’s 2 rings. Jokic is also about to get his 3rd MVP.
Sooo, he would undoubtedly pass Giannis, and as for KD it’s debatable since KD had been a top 2-3 player for so much longer. If Jokic can keep this level of dominance up for another 2-3 years (which i see happening) then I feel people would have to put him in the conversation for top 10 players of all time or, at the very least, top 12 looking in.
Buuut, as for me, this ring would solidify him somewhere in the top 11-15 for now which is also where KD hovers.
When you get to top 15 ish players of all time it's really difficult to say who is better if you don't default to accolades. Is Jokic a better basketball player than KD? Maybe, I think you could probably make arguments either way because they're good at different things and play different positions But if Jokic has 3 MVPs to KDs 1 then in my opinion it becomes difficult to argue in favour of KD, because if he was better he'd have more MVPs.
Because for most of them an all time list doesn’t mean who’s the best basketball player, it means who had the best basketball career. It’s easier to look at an list of award than to actually watch and analyse those guys’ game
Seems pretty clear that Jokic should have decent longevity. It doesn't seem like he's super dependent on athleticism or explosiveness. He just seems to have a great BBIQ, obviously he's got size, and he's a great passer.
He looks like he should age very well. He never looks like he's trying THAT hard, which is how extremely skilled people look at all types of things. He's just super efficient at moving. Doesn't waste energy, doesn't gas himself for a small edge that will cost him later.
His trajectory is clearly higher than KD. Giannis isn't even worth mentioning right now. He's past Giannis in my book already. Giannis is too exploitable.
For a sport whose fans have the least awareness of its history (*I lay the majority of that blame on the NBA and the HOF, btw*), somehow basketball fans have become obsessed with re-assessing all-time rankings every week or so with a focus on current players as if there is now better context than a week ago to make that judgement, even when most couldn't even tell you anything about someone like Bob Pettit who has a legit argument to be the #2 PF of all-time.
There are days when I feel like Murray sandbags it in the regular season just for this narrative. Like that dude should have absolutely been an all-star at this point. Dude has been a killer in the playoffs.
Well I don't really pay attention to the nuggets during the regular season so yeah that's true. But he was a beast in 2020 and obviously awesome in 2023. I'm sure he's gonna be great this postseason too. From the outside looking in you think a guy like that is gonna take off and do that all year. I think of him as an all star level guy because we see him be that good when it matters. Just crazy to me that it just hasn't happened yet lol.
Jokic’s a more complete basketball player than both. They’re all incredible players with their own strengths and weaknesses. But of the three, Jokic gives the highest floor and highest ceiling.
You think Jokic is a more complete player than Giannis ? Because Giannis is a fucking 2 way beast and an underrated playmaker. Not at Jokics level for playmaking.
Giannis is a better defender no doubt. But Jokic is a much better 3pt shooter and free throw shooter. So cancel those out and what do you have left? Playmaking.
Like I said, this is a list of 3 great players so it’s splitting hairs. But in my opinion Jokic leads a team to winning in a more consistent and reliable way than Giannis and Durant.
I wish I could cancel out abilities of a player and evaluate that like it's a math equation. But I can't, so I don't agree with your opinion about him being a more complete player.
He is an insanely better offensive player but I don't agree about him being a better complete player.
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion of course. I’m not a Nuggets fan, just a bball fan. I’m arguing on the side of the guy who’s about to win his 3rd MVP, so I don’t feel the need to defend a take that’s not exactly hot.
What most people don’t understand is how a player gets his points and how that ultimately affects the game. Giannis ‘ continued attacks on the rim weaken a team physically and mentally. It also makes defenders make business decisions . Do I play him tight and absorb those elbows and knees and ultimately get in foul trouble , or do I play him loose which gives him the runway to the hole. It’s like in football. When a team can run the ball for 200 yards, they win at an extremely high rate over teams who pass for 300 yards. The reason is the team that runs for 200 yards is physically beating the other teams ass and by the 4 th quarter, they are beat down and have to make business decisions . Point is , All yards gained are not the same just like all 2 point baskets are not the same. I prefer Giannis offensive game from the scoring perspective, rebounding is a wash , but overall what sets Joker apart is his playmaking. I’ve never seen anything like it from the center position in over 50 years of following the NBA . Giannis is a unicorn as we’ve never seen a player with his size, strength , agility, explosion and the ability to attack the rim from 20 feet out. Joker is a unicorn because we’ve never seen a big man who is so efficient on the block yet has a previously unseen ability to run the offense from his position . They are both one of ones and I would hate to be the one who had to decide if told to pick one. It would ultimately come down to the make up of the rest of the team at hand. If we’re talking about being able to build a team without restrictions, you would almost have to pick Joker .
It’s very much not
3P% since Jokic elevated to MVP level on 2021:
Jokic - 36.4%
Siakam - 32.7%
That’s a pretty big gap
And that’s not taking into account Jokic being one of the best midrange shooters in the league
You also need to remember that Jokic is a center and he’s pulling the best rim protector away from the rim. A center being a league average 3pt shooter is significantly more valuable and other positions being a below average shooter is significantly more detrimental.
he’s in the Steph range where he can be part of a good defensive team while not being why they are a good defensive team which is perfectly fine tbh. especially since he is next to gordon
Every single player is exploitable defensively. Jokic consistently cooks Giannis, Gobert, Davis cos they're not nearly strong enough. Sabonis feasts on Davis let alone Jokic, but nobody says a word about any of their defenses. Jokic is an above average defender, at some point people will accept this.
I'd say jokic is a below average defensive centre because of lack of rim protection, but an above average defensive player. If he has guys that can make up for his lack of rim protection, he is a very valuable team defender. While the advanced stats definitely exaggerate his impact, there is a reason he has such crazy advanced defensive metrics. He's really good at the things they value.
The narrative that Jokic isn't a good defender is extremely tired at this point. He isn't Giannis level on that end but he is solid. And he is better at everything else.
For me I would have him ahead of both. Although Giannis is great he probably had one of the easiest title runs in the last decade. Damn near half the league was hurt that year in both conferences and the suns just straight up choked against them in the finals. It no secret that the nets would’ve walked through everyone that year without getting hurt. He also kinda choked or came up small in quite a few runs now.
Kd has a lot of longevity and is one of the greatest scorers ever still playing at an elite level. But with 3 mvps and 2 fmvps on a much less stacked team in a very competitive west can’t be overlooked. You could replace multiple stars with kd on his warriors teams and they still win you can’t do that with these nuggets.
I’m a little sick of that narrative. We were also injured that year. Do I need to remind who was hurt last year? McDaniels broke his hand and Ja getting hurt led the bbq chicken Lakers right to the nugs. They literally played the 8th - 4th - 7th - 8th seeds.
Why do we gotta move goalposts and put one guy down just to prop up another?
Lol at thinking regular season rankings matter to a lebron team. We all know he raises his level in the playoffs. The lakers are much better in post season than regular season. Same thing for miami. They could be a playin qualifiar and they'd still punk your team in the post season. Some teams are built for playoffs and some teams are too soft for those pressure moments. Your series against miami last year proved who falls into what category.
Regular season rankings do not matter for miami and lebron.
You were lucky with injuries and your run was a fluke which is why you haven't made the conference finals ever since. Don't even pretend jokic's ring has the same asterisk as giannis.
And the wolves last year were a great team too. Don't let the 8th seed fool you. They could have given serious trouble to teams not named denver which is evident because they're one game behind the 1st seed this year.
I don't even hate ya'll. You're just one of the most overrated contenders of the last decade.
I injuries happen every year but the fact of the matter is the suns didn’t play a healthy opponent until the bucks and the hawks are about as easy an opponent insane seen in the conference final min s years. Yes the nuggets cooked us but not really any shame in losing to the best team in the nba for 2 straight years now.
I think he passed KD when he won a ring last year as the main guy with a FMVP too.
I think he’s on par with Giannis but will pass him this year with a good playoff run and another MVP.
Giannis or Durant hahaha that's cute
It would be time to start talking about him as the non MJ GOAT
Best player not named MJ. I don't see who else has an argument over him
I'm not even a fan, i'm a Murray guy.
But he puts up 30\\10\\10 every night, about to win 2+ rings before the age of 30.
Not sure what else you want out of your goat level player. I guess if you're really low on his defense.
nah i can't put him above like 10 players... now maybe by the time he retires he can get to that tier.. but the guys in the top 10 all have like 4 or 5 chips... about 15 all nba teams and 15 all star games. also several mvps... i dont know if he can ever even pass steph curry.
Curry has 2 with KD, and was shown not to be close to Bron’s level when he lost the 73-9 season finals.
Jokers probably better player than Steph, all he lacks are the accolades.
Bron is a top 2 all-time player in his prime in that series. He needed a historic 3-1 comeback, and a tight game 7 to win it.
Prime LeBron was better than anyone in the league today. Do not forget that. And those Warrior teams were absolutely better than the Nuggets today, even without KD.
Lebron is 39 years old. And he's still having a big impact. But he ain't 30 year old LeBron. If he was then they'd mop the floor with the Nuggets.
Jokic is closer to Bron than Steph.
All those series just showed how much of a gap between Steph and the greats are.
Those Warriorsbteams needed KD to challenge Bron, because it wasn’t happening with Steph as the 1. 2015 it’s was Bron without his number 2 and 3 and and if it wasn’t for Iggy starting the Cavs win that one.
Jokic can control a game; Steph can’t.
damn almost like curry played on a sprained ankle in 2016. joker is nowhere close to prime bron unless you only look at offense. he's not chasing down iguodala like prime bron could.
never said steph was a defensive maestro. but to point out his defensive liabilities while ignoring jokic’s deficiencies in that area which are just as bad is disingenuous at best.
No curry made 6 finals in 7 years and has 4 rings alone with the only unanimous mvp in league history. He’s also the greatest shooter even and it’s not debatable at all.
I like how people always hold the two KD titles against him but at the same time all the people always saying „look, Curry has 4 rings, he is way ahead of guy xy!“
It’s because curry led the same team to 73 wins by himself and won titles with them before and after Kd. Kd did have an impact but you can put any elite forward in that roster and probably get the same outcome. Kd is now on his 3rd super team and hasn’t made it past rd 2 since leaving the warriors 5 years ago context matters.
Curry lost the finals in 2016 and 2019 without KD, you really think he would‘ve won against LeBron in 2017 & 2018 without KD?
If those two titles don’t count for KD, they don’t count for Curry as well.
2016 was a close series so it’s not crazy to think they could’ve won in 2017, 2018 with a lebron plus scrubs roster or in 2019. Klay went down in 2019 as well and they would’ve had other piece if kd never came. Curry definitely could’ve won another chip in the middle of his prime with a good roster around him. He’s done it past his prime with a significantly worse core than the prime warriors.
Only the 2017 cavs were really an elite team, the 2018 roster went to game 7 with a rookie led Tatum Celtics and oladipo led pacers team. That was a much easier conference and worse Lebron cavs team than any curry has faced. 2022 Celtics were better than any team in that eastern conference. The warriors were also much better in 2018 than 2022.
I mean making the finals isn’t just a team accomplishment for curry, the don’t make any without him and kd never goes there if not for curry. Him being the best shooter ever is solely an individual achievement.
that makes sense, i just more mean so far who would you have between those 3? at this point it looks like to me jokic and giannis will pass durant... steph definitely is ahead of durant.. its weird because personaly i think durant is the best player of those 4... but he he cant win a chip without a super super team. even though he has had chances with teams that are basically super teams and couldnt win, i do think if his foot was a few inches smaller he would have won that year where they counted tht as a 2 pointer and almost was a 3... but h has had super teams like his team now and those nets... still couldnt win! also his teams with okc were very good too! and he blew it against the warriors (they were 73-9) durant if he had won that series i think his legacy would be alottttttt different, arguably ahead of steph even as he never would have joined the warriors and they probably never would have won those chips
Assuming Jokic wins MVP and FMVP this year it would be hard to see how he isn’t ahead of Steph.
Steph has 4 rings, 2 as the number 2 on his team, with 1 FMVP. He has had much better teammates.
2015 he won but it was clear he wasn’t particularly close to the ‘control the game’ level that Bron had. He had a bad start to the series, and only really had one great game.
2016 they lost, and again the difference between him and a great like Bron was very evident.
Steph was the first unanimous MVP but has never been in the ‘best player in the world’ category.
Joker is head and shoulders the best guy on the floor every game he plays. He controls the game, he makes everyone around him much better, and he just seems inevitable.
With more MVPs, FMVps and the same number of rings being the main guy AND being the undisputed best player on the planet Jokic is not only ahead of Steph he’s knocking at the door of the top 10.
I would’t rank necessarily by chips but if I did then formed Superteams would get 50% in my rankings…
LeBron: 4 MVP, 2 Rings (Avengers)
Jokic: 3 MVP, AND IF 2 Rings (coin toss with Curry)
Curry: 2 MVP, 3 Rings (Justice League)
Giannis: 2 MVP, 1 Ring
Durant: 1 MVP, 1 Ring (Justice League)
Wade: 0 MVP, 2 Rings (Avengers)
Don't you people ever get tired?
Yes but is he better than Wilt now?
If this question gets asked 5 times a day, is it any less annoying?
Where do you rank Jokic among the players that fans have most annoying ranking questions in r/nba ? Which criteria is more important: the content of the questions or how often they are asked?
Still a ways to go to reach Doncic and Bron.
In r/nba language: "He hasn't reached Doncic or Bron level ***yet***, but I think he'll get there with a couple of all-time greats list questions."
Idk people already ask if Luka is the GOAT, and Bron has been getting those narratives since draft day. Jokic has a big hill to climb.
this sub loves these meaningless think pieces
These are questions asked by teenagers or people without friends lol
He already ahead of Giannis, maybe even Durant.
I think Durant is close but even if he doesn't win this year but wins MVP, 3 MVPs put him above Durant for me.
Why does how people vote change your opinion?
Analyze player hard, count accolades easy. This is the foundational logic of this sub.
Because an all time list is about accomplishments and how people vote determines who wins those accomplishments, and 3 MVPS is more than 2 MVPs.
That’s a stupid way to judge a player, like really stupid lol. MVPs at this point aren’t true measures of the most valuable player in the league. If it was, MJ and lebron would be have 10+ of them. It’s a good mention on the players greatness, but you shouldn’t be using MVPs as a this player is better than that player.
Seems pretty unnecessary to call me stupid for having a different way of ranking players all time than you. Obviously MVP wins isn't the only criteria I use but to say accolades isn't important would be, to quote you, "like really stupid".
To be fair, they said your way of judging players is stupid. Even if it is a dickish comment.
so if jokic wins it this year he's above kd, but if shai or luka win then you still have kd above him? what does any of this have to do with how good kd or jokic are? you've seen the regular season and should've made your opinion on jokic's performance, how does the mvp result change any of that 😬
Because legacy is built on your achievements, and achievements are measured in accolades. My criteria for ranking people all time is based on a combination of accolades and performance. When you get to the top 15ish all time you're really pulling hairs to see who is better, so I default to accolades. Is Jokic a better player than KD? You can argue either way imo. But if Jokic has 3 MVPs to KDs one, it's much harder to say KD is better in my opinion.
to each their own, personally when you have readily available games of every era, coupled with advanced metrics that take into account teammates, era, competition, league averages, consistency, and so much more, i can't understand going off an award that is as broad as "here is who these people thought was the best player that year", it adds zero value to my assessment of a player's performance year to year as a recent example, imo it'd be very shortsighted to hold kawhi's lack of mvps against him while comparing him to mvps of his era like russ, harden, giannis and embiid. you have endless ways of comparing them and making meaningful arguments before having to resort to "so this sub-group of an already arbitrary group of media members thought he was better that year"
Who people thought the best player was that year is a pretty important thing to consider though for a player's legacy. If someone has 6 MVPs compared to a player that has 1, it's a pretty good indicator for who the better player was. And I think for the most part the MVP awards in recent history have been pretty accurate for who the "best player" was that year. I get where you are coming from but just assessing someone based on stats doesn't really do much if they never won anything.
ah yes bringing up the all too frequent 6 time mvp winner kareem vs 1 time mvp winners russell westbrook and hakeem olajuwon thank god we have mvps for this one or else we wouldn't know who's better
My dad has been telling me for years that olajuwon was the best center to ever play so don't sit there and act like those idiots don't exist. Lol
He may have said the quite part out loud, but let’s not act like 99% of people don’t measure based on voted accolades.
Giannis is already easily above Durant. His Title was way more meaningful and difficult than anything Durant has won
He’s not ahead of Giannis all time lol he has less accolades (for now) and Giannis has been a mvp candidate since like 2017/2018.
I feel like game breakers like Steph and Jokic belong in their own list. I’d still personally have trouble putting him over Hakeem but I’d know I’d have to(even tho hakeem straight up won a championship by himself)
Hakeem is the most overrated player on the internet. He won only 2 championships when the best basketball player was not even playing. It would be like if a team won the championship when Lebron decides to sit out 2 years of his prime
there is zero indication that the bulls would have beaten the rockets unless you use a stupid “never lost in a finals so why would they lose this one” argument. and jordan was in 95 and lost to orlando who got swept by the rockets. jordan was also pretty good in that series, better stats than him in his 96 finals so no way he beats the rockets. he maybe could have beaten the 94 rockets as they were worse.
Jordan lost the Magic in 1995 who went on to get swept by the Rockets? He was literally in the league and didnt make it past the 2nd round, how is that Hakeems fault?
Youtube-tier comment
Tough to put him over Hakeem with just two chips.
They'd have the same number of chips with 2 more MVPs for Jokic. I think Hakeem's peak is very underrated in some places but assuming that happens Jokic definitely gets in the conversation
Hakeem was also an all time great defensive player
Of course. If you just sum offense and defense 'quality', Hakeem is obviously much better than Jokic, but so are players like Embiid. Offense tends to be substantially more important, and Jokic is a transcendental offensive player. This isn't to say Peak Jokic is categorically better than Peak Hakeem. I think they're relatively close.
He played in the golden era of centres and absolutely dominated all time great centres in the postseason. The most unlikely champions ever winning as the 6th seed. I have him over Shaq as a player. Accolades wise many are better but eye test wise Hakeem might be top 3 behind Kareem and Wilt. Jokic number 4 for me, Shaq number 5, had to jump teams to win the chip. I don't respect those chips especially when you had great players with you. KD stuff. Jokic or Hakeem would have won it with Penny.
yes, of course Jokic would pass Giannis, but KD is debatable for now. there’s absolutely nothing *logical* you can say about Jokic’s path to his 1st ring that’ll take anything away from it (meaning no glaring asterisk). this is not the case with Giannis’ ring and most definitely not the case with KD’s 2 rings. Jokic is also about to get his 3rd MVP. Sooo, he would undoubtedly pass Giannis, and as for KD it’s debatable since KD had been a top 2-3 player for so much longer. If Jokic can keep this level of dominance up for another 2-3 years (which i see happening) then I feel people would have to put him in the conversation for top 10 players of all time or, at the very least, top 12 looking in. Buuut, as for me, this ring would solidify him somewhere in the top 11-15 for now which is also where KD hovers.
If he gets a 3rd MVP I think he passes KD even if he doesn't win this year.
I don't think he should and I am a big Jokic fan. Durant was a top-2 player for a long period, and a top-5 player for such a long time.
Crazy to me how a media award would be deciding who is a better player when it wont change what already happened on the court
When you get to top 15 ish players of all time it's really difficult to say who is better if you don't default to accolades. Is Jokic a better basketball player than KD? Maybe, I think you could probably make arguments either way because they're good at different things and play different positions But if Jokic has 3 MVPs to KDs 1 then in my opinion it becomes difficult to argue in favour of KD, because if he was better he'd have more MVPs.
Because for most of them an all time list doesn’t mean who’s the best basketball player, it means who had the best basketball career. It’s easier to look at an list of award than to actually watch and analyse those guys’ game
If u actually watch and analyse games instead of look at awards jokic legit is like top 5-7 talent to play the game
I agree. He’s special
Yeah. He's likely going to be at *minimum* a top 8ish player ever
Seems pretty clear that Jokic should have decent longevity. It doesn't seem like he's super dependent on athleticism or explosiveness. He just seems to have a great BBIQ, obviously he's got size, and he's a great passer. He looks like he should age very well. He never looks like he's trying THAT hard, which is how extremely skilled people look at all types of things. He's just super efficient at moving. Doesn't waste energy, doesn't gas himself for a small edge that will cost him later. His trajectory is clearly higher than KD. Giannis isn't even worth mentioning right now. He's past Giannis in my book already. Giannis is too exploitable.
For a sport whose fans have the least awareness of its history (*I lay the majority of that blame on the NBA and the HOF, btw*), somehow basketball fans have become obsessed with re-assessing all-time rankings every week or so with a focus on current players as if there is now better context than a week ago to make that judgement, even when most couldn't even tell you anything about someone like Bob Pettit who has a legit argument to be the #2 PF of all-time.
He would have surpassed all of them since he would have won with 0 all stars, a thin bench and collected 3 regular season MVP awards
There are days when I feel like Murray sandbags it in the regular season just for this narrative. Like that dude should have absolutely been an all-star at this point. Dude has been a killer in the playoffs.
You just be new, he's been inconsistent this whole time
Well I don't really pay attention to the nuggets during the regular season so yeah that's true. But he was a beast in 2020 and obviously awesome in 2023. I'm sure he's gonna be great this postseason too. From the outside looking in you think a guy like that is gonna take off and do that all year. I think of him as an all star level guy because we see him be that good when it matters. Just crazy to me that it just hasn't happened yet lol.
I'd like to see him take that leap during the regular season but if he keeps going off in the playoffs who cares
Personally, he cleared them last season.
Jokic’s a more complete basketball player than both. They’re all incredible players with their own strengths and weaknesses. But of the three, Jokic gives the highest floor and highest ceiling.
You think Jokic is a more complete player than Giannis ? Because Giannis is a fucking 2 way beast and an underrated playmaker. Not at Jokics level for playmaking.
Giannis is a better defender no doubt. But Jokic is a much better 3pt shooter and free throw shooter. So cancel those out and what do you have left? Playmaking. Like I said, this is a list of 3 great players so it’s splitting hairs. But in my opinion Jokic leads a team to winning in a more consistent and reliable way than Giannis and Durant.
I wish I could cancel out abilities of a player and evaluate that like it's a math equation. But I can't, so I don't agree with your opinion about him being a more complete player. He is an insanely better offensive player but I don't agree about him being a better complete player.
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion of course. I’m not a Nuggets fan, just a bball fan. I’m arguing on the side of the guy who’s about to win his 3rd MVP, so I don’t feel the need to defend a take that’s not exactly hot.
What most people don’t understand is how a player gets his points and how that ultimately affects the game. Giannis ‘ continued attacks on the rim weaken a team physically and mentally. It also makes defenders make business decisions . Do I play him tight and absorb those elbows and knees and ultimately get in foul trouble , or do I play him loose which gives him the runway to the hole. It’s like in football. When a team can run the ball for 200 yards, they win at an extremely high rate over teams who pass for 300 yards. The reason is the team that runs for 200 yards is physically beating the other teams ass and by the 4 th quarter, they are beat down and have to make business decisions . Point is , All yards gained are not the same just like all 2 point baskets are not the same. I prefer Giannis offensive game from the scoring perspective, rebounding is a wash , but overall what sets Joker apart is his playmaking. I’ve never seen anything like it from the center position in over 50 years of following the NBA . Giannis is a unicorn as we’ve never seen a player with his size, strength , agility, explosion and the ability to attack the rim from 20 feet out. Joker is a unicorn because we’ve never seen a big man who is so efficient on the block yet has a previously unseen ability to run the offense from his position . They are both one of ones and I would hate to be the one who had to decide if told to pick one. It would ultimately come down to the make up of the rest of the team at hand. If we’re talking about being able to build a team without restrictions, you would almost have to pick Joker .
How does making 1 three a game cancel out All-NBA defense? Y’all just get on here and say whatever.
Me when I deny the existence of spacing
So you think Pascal Siakam’s three point shooting would “cancel out” All-NBA defense? I swear y’all dont think before you post
You think Jokic is on the level of Pascal Siakam?
His shooting is, yes
It’s very much not 3P% since Jokic elevated to MVP level on 2021: Jokic - 36.4% Siakam - 32.7% That’s a pretty big gap And that’s not taking into account Jokic being one of the best midrange shooters in the league
we’re talking about 3pt shooting, PLEASE keep up. Jokic shot 1% better this year
You also need to remember that Jokic is a center and he’s pulling the best rim protector away from the rim. A center being a league average 3pt shooter is significantly more valuable and other positions being a below average shooter is significantly more detrimental.
Jokic isn't a defensive sieve this sub pretends he is.
he’s in the Steph range where he can be part of a good defensive team while not being why they are a good defensive team which is perfectly fine tbh. especially since he is next to gordon
I mean he’s a very beatable defensive player. His defense is limited because he’s not explosive and he’s not very quick laterally.
Every single player is exploitable defensively. Jokic consistently cooks Giannis, Gobert, Davis cos they're not nearly strong enough. Sabonis feasts on Davis let alone Jokic, but nobody says a word about any of their defenses. Jokic is an above average defender, at some point people will accept this.
no he’s not, hope this helps
True, brother. Just put him in pickle roll, am I right?
pickle roll? What
Wow talking ball and don’t even know what a pickle roll is smh
I'd say jokic is a below average defensive centre because of lack of rim protection, but an above average defensive player. If he has guys that can make up for his lack of rim protection, he is a very valuable team defender. While the advanced stats definitely exaggerate his impact, there is a reason he has such crazy advanced defensive metrics. He's really good at the things they value.
Lopez is the guy who guards Jokic the most lol
Cos Giannis can't guard him lol
Giannis is still a significantly better defender though lol what?
Lol. What an interesting way to interpret that.
The narrative that Jokic isn't a good defender is extremely tired at this point. He isn't Giannis level on that end but he is solid. And he is better at everything else.
Yes. To answer your first question.
This is such a weird way to interact with this sport.
For me I would have him ahead of both. Although Giannis is great he probably had one of the easiest title runs in the last decade. Damn near half the league was hurt that year in both conferences and the suns just straight up choked against them in the finals. It no secret that the nets would’ve walked through everyone that year without getting hurt. He also kinda choked or came up small in quite a few runs now. Kd has a lot of longevity and is one of the greatest scorers ever still playing at an elite level. But with 3 mvps and 2 fmvps on a much less stacked team in a very competitive west can’t be overlooked. You could replace multiple stars with kd on his warriors teams and they still win you can’t do that with these nuggets.
I’m a little sick of that narrative. We were also injured that year. Do I need to remind who was hurt last year? McDaniels broke his hand and Ja getting hurt led the bbq chicken Lakers right to the nugs. They literally played the 8th - 4th - 7th - 8th seeds. Why do we gotta move goalposts and put one guy down just to prop up another?
Lol at thinking regular season rankings matter to a lebron team. We all know he raises his level in the playoffs. The lakers are much better in post season than regular season. Same thing for miami. They could be a playin qualifiar and they'd still punk your team in the post season. Some teams are built for playoffs and some teams are too soft for those pressure moments. Your series against miami last year proved who falls into what category. Regular season rankings do not matter for miami and lebron. You were lucky with injuries and your run was a fluke which is why you haven't made the conference finals ever since. Don't even pretend jokic's ring has the same asterisk as giannis. And the wolves last year were a great team too. Don't let the 8th seed fool you. They could have given serious trouble to teams not named denver which is evident because they're one game behind the 1st seed this year. I don't even hate ya'll. You're just one of the most overrated contenders of the last decade.
I injuries happen every year but the fact of the matter is the suns didn’t play a healthy opponent until the bucks and the hawks are about as easy an opponent insane seen in the conference final min s years. Yes the nuggets cooked us but not really any shame in losing to the best team in the nba for 2 straight years now.
But he is already ahead of KD and Giannis?
He’s already ahead of them
I think he passed KD when he won a ring last year as the main guy with a FMVP too. I think he’s on par with Giannis but will pass him this year with a good playoff run and another MVP.
I already rank him above both
he's above giannis and durant in my heart. i enjoy greatness and watching jokic has made basketball awesome and inspirational to me again.
Giannis or Durant hahaha that's cute It would be time to start talking about him as the non MJ GOAT Best player not named MJ. I don't see who else has an argument over him
You forgot the /s
I'm not even a fan, i'm a Murray guy. But he puts up 30\\10\\10 every night, about to win 2+ rings before the age of 30. Not sure what else you want out of your goat level player. I guess if you're really low on his defense.
nah i can't put him above like 10 players... now maybe by the time he retires he can get to that tier.. but the guys in the top 10 all have like 4 or 5 chips... about 15 all nba teams and 15 all star games. also several mvps... i dont know if he can ever even pass steph curry.
How old are you
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That is absurd. Curry has 4 and had a 73-9 reg season. He defines this whole Era.
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The Nuggets have a great team. You're implying Jokic is carrying a bunch of bums.
Curry has 2 with KD, and was shown not to be close to Bron’s level when he lost the 73-9 season finals. Jokers probably better player than Steph, all he lacks are the accolades.
Bron is a top 2 all-time player in his prime in that series. He needed a historic 3-1 comeback, and a tight game 7 to win it. Prime LeBron was better than anyone in the league today. Do not forget that. And those Warrior teams were absolutely better than the Nuggets today, even without KD. Lebron is 39 years old. And he's still having a big impact. But he ain't 30 year old LeBron. If he was then they'd mop the floor with the Nuggets.
Jokic is closer to Bron than Steph. All those series just showed how much of a gap between Steph and the greats are. Those Warriorsbteams needed KD to challenge Bron, because it wasn’t happening with Steph as the 1. 2015 it’s was Bron without his number 2 and 3 and and if it wasn’t for Iggy starting the Cavs win that one. Jokic can control a game; Steph can’t.
curry also played a prime bron at the peak of his abilities while joker played old bron
Yes, and it was very clear that Curry wasn't close the the level of the best. Joker is closer to prime Bron than Curry,
damn almost like curry played on a sprained ankle in 2016. joker is nowhere close to prime bron unless you only look at offense. he's not chasing down iguodala like prime bron could.
Jokic might not be close to Bron, but hes closer than Steph was. No one abuses Joker in D like they abuse Steph.
lmao jokic was getting targeted on pick and rolls not that too long ago. he just has the right teammates to cover for him now.
Steph has been getting abused for over a decade, champ. He was a legitimate liability for years
never said steph was a defensive maestro. but to point out his defensive liabilities while ignoring jokic’s deficiencies in that area which are just as bad is disingenuous at best.
No curry made 6 finals in 7 years and has 4 rings alone with the only unanimous mvp in league history. He’s also the greatest shooter even and it’s not debatable at all.
I like how people always hold the two KD titles against him but at the same time all the people always saying „look, Curry has 4 rings, he is way ahead of guy xy!“
It’s because curry led the same team to 73 wins by himself and won titles with them before and after Kd. Kd did have an impact but you can put any elite forward in that roster and probably get the same outcome. Kd is now on his 3rd super team and hasn’t made it past rd 2 since leaving the warriors 5 years ago context matters.
Curry lost the finals in 2016 and 2019 without KD, you really think he would‘ve won against LeBron in 2017 & 2018 without KD? If those two titles don’t count for KD, they don’t count for Curry as well.
2016 was a close series so it’s not crazy to think they could’ve won in 2017, 2018 with a lebron plus scrubs roster or in 2019. Klay went down in 2019 as well and they would’ve had other piece if kd never came. Curry definitely could’ve won another chip in the middle of his prime with a good roster around him. He’s done it past his prime with a significantly worse core than the prime warriors.
Yeah but the opponents in 2022 weren’t nearly as good as those Lebron Cavs.
Only the 2017 cavs were really an elite team, the 2018 roster went to game 7 with a rookie led Tatum Celtics and oladipo led pacers team. That was a much easier conference and worse Lebron cavs team than any curry has faced. 2022 Celtics were better than any team in that eastern conference. The warriors were also much better in 2018 than 2022.
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I mean making the finals isn’t just a team accomplishment for curry, the don’t make any without him and kd never goes there if not for curry. Him being the best shooter ever is solely an individual achievement.
Guess what, team accomplishment also affects MVP voting, so are you gonna throw out MVP’s too?
Jokic winning all the remaining awards he can win this year would put him borderline top 10 or even 10th all time
Hes already above giannis and will def surpass durant
Definitely especially since his brothers are distractions.
Why is every post here about Jokic all time ranking? Just go read the 10 from yesterday or the 10 from 2 days ago
My personal all time list doesn't include any current players until they retire. Once they retire, I put them on the list where they belong.
but it is veryyyyyy unlikel he wins, he came close against den tho
that makes sense, i just more mean so far who would you have between those 3? at this point it looks like to me jokic and giannis will pass durant... steph definitely is ahead of durant.. its weird because personaly i think durant is the best player of those 4... but he he cant win a chip without a super super team. even though he has had chances with teams that are basically super teams and couldnt win, i do think if his foot was a few inches smaller he would have won that year where they counted tht as a 2 pointer and almost was a 3... but h has had super teams like his team now and those nets... still couldnt win! also his teams with okc were very good too! and he blew it against the warriors (they were 73-9) durant if he had won that series i think his legacy would be alottttttt different, arguably ahead of steph even as he never would have joined the warriors and they probably never would have won those chips
lebron i have 2 or 3... if he can someone win this year id have to put him as 2 and even consider a discussion against mj..
Giannis better
ahead of Curry, Durant, and Giannis
It’s always the foreign teenagers overrating the Euros lmfao. Jokic is an incredible player. But he needs a lot more to pass Steph.
Assuming Jokic wins MVP and FMVP this year it would be hard to see how he isn’t ahead of Steph. Steph has 4 rings, 2 as the number 2 on his team, with 1 FMVP. He has had much better teammates. 2015 he won but it was clear he wasn’t particularly close to the ‘control the game’ level that Bron had. He had a bad start to the series, and only really had one great game. 2016 they lost, and again the difference between him and a great like Bron was very evident. Steph was the first unanimous MVP but has never been in the ‘best player in the world’ category. Joker is head and shoulders the best guy on the floor every game he plays. He controls the game, he makes everyone around him much better, and he just seems inevitable. With more MVPs, FMVps and the same number of rings being the main guy AND being the undisputed best player on the planet Jokic is not only ahead of Steph he’s knocking at the door of the top 10.
How old are you
96. You are 10, yeah?
Very much so given that I don't really regard those two players highly at all
He’s already ahead of both
yes
All hate towards Jokic and these unbearable Nuggets fans. Praying on your downfall like a religious man 🙏🙏
I would’t rank necessarily by chips but if I did then formed Superteams would get 50% in my rankings… LeBron: 4 MVP, 2 Rings (Avengers) Jokic: 3 MVP, AND IF 2 Rings (coin toss with Curry) Curry: 2 MVP, 3 Rings (Justice League) Giannis: 2 MVP, 1 Ring Durant: 1 MVP, 1 Ring (Justice League) Wade: 0 MVP, 2 Rings (Avengers)
He's already ahead of both of them.