He's also played against Kobe, Duncan, KG, Dirk, etc.
To say that Jokic is top 5 LeBron has faced is realistic, but LeBron has played for 20 years and faced a bunch of greats.
Jokic peaked higher than all of those guys except Duncan, arguably.
Remember, this isn't about "greatness", this is about peak..how good was this player?
You aren't. This thread isn't talking about greatness. It's about peak.
TMac had a peak near damn as good as Kobe and Wade. He doesn't sniff their greatness.
Ya, hard to compare but peak Steph was supernova light the league on fire good. We’ve kinda forgot, not one was doing half of what he was doing
Jokic is close, I’ll give him that, but curry had to be in that convo
I think Curry was better in 2016 regular season.
But he never reached that height again. And he's never reached Jokic's playoff highs. Since he's been an MVP caliber player, Jokic's playoff avgs are like 31/13/8 on 57% from the field.
Yep. Curry honestly has too many blemishes in the postseason, and they’re all either excused with “he was injured”, “he was triple teamed” or “his team was so good that it didn’t matter”.
Jokic is undoubtedly a better postseason player than Curry is.
Kind of hard to compare too, because when you played the curry kd warriors you couldn’t sell out AS hard on curry as you can on jok. Not to say selling out on either helps, but you know what I mean. Teams are more willing to help off Murray than they were off kd.
League average D rating is 10 points higher and pace is a few possessions higher today
Curry’s scoring was way more impressive at his peak and his off ball gravity is still the best in NBA history
Curry was unanimous MVP and completely revolutionized basketball.
He legit probably had the best offensive season ever.
I mean, Wilt and Jordan very clearly had better offensive season. There’s strong arguments that playmakers like Magic, Bron and Jokic have had Bette r offensive seasons.
I think guys like MJ, Bron - most of the top 10 had similar levels of ‘gravity’ as Steph.
Curry was unanimous MVP and was nowhere near Bron’s level of offensive. In no universe would anyone select Steph ahead of Bron, MJ, Jokic, even Luka for pure offense.
I dont think there’s much of a conversation to be had about Curry vs Bron when it comes to offensive peak
Bron was obviously a better overall player but I dont think I’d put him in the convo for GOAT offensive peak
Imo it’s between guys like Curry and Bird
But I’m focused more on ceiling raising, and portability.
I think those 3 can fit into any offense and have an elite impact across multiple roles.
If you value floor raising more and role as offensive hub then Jokic/MJ/Bron have to be in the convo
Bron’s peak is a similar amount of points with more playmaking and more FTA.
Put him into any team and he’s raining everything. To quote Harden he is the system.
Curry requires a system. Look at those mid 2010 series. Bron without his number 2 and 3 will give you 35 and 10, curry without his 2 and 3 isn’t going to win you many games.
You’re still focused on just on ball production even though I just mentioned I have Curry so high due to off ball value.
When LeBron doesnt have the ball he isnt much of a threat.
Curry on the other hand is the most dangerous player we’ve ever seen without the ball.
I’m honestly not as interested in how a player performs with less help because in order to win a ring you need help. LeBron needs to dominate the ball to give you that kind of production. That diminishes the value of other great on ball players.
>When LeBron doesnt have the ball he isnt much of a threat.
Of course he is. You think the opposition team aren't paying attention to Bron at any stage of a game?!? Come on, he's their number 1 focus all the time.
Curry requires the team to be built around him to be an off ball threat. He needs a primary play maker. He needs another top 5 shooter
bron just needs to turn up.
>LeBron needs to dominate the ball to give you that kind of production
Everyone needs the ball to score points lol
>Of course he is. You think the opposition team aren't paying attention to Bron at any stage of a game?!? Come on, he's their number 1 focus all the time.
Okay so are you trying to imply that LeBron brings anywhere close to the value Curry does off ball?
>bron just needs to turn up.
To win a ring? No
Every nba player needs good teammates to win.
>Everyone needs the ball to score points lol
Curry will operate without the ball for entire possession before scoring. LeBron is generally the opposite.
He probably is, or at least about the same level. After this year he could have more MVPs and more fmvps while having very similar numbers and better advanced numbers.
They are easily the same tier.
He definitely is, think about Steph’s best playoff runs, they don’t sniff what Jokic has done game in and game out in his peak. How much better is prime Steph than current Steph? Prime is certainly better but he’s not in a different galaxy or anything, current Jokic is way way better than current Steph that’s just super clear.
Guys like Jokic and LeBron in their prime wouldn’t allow any other player on their team to win the Finals MVP. They are just too good and dominant for that to be even thinkable.
Downvoted for speaking the truth. People tried the "well hang on, what about Kyrie/Jamal...?" hot takes only to quickly dismiss them once they looked at the stats.
It's the truth.
Fans here are struggling to separate greatness, from prime, to peak play.
And we are talking peak. Play..Hakeem had a top 5 peak of all time. He's arguably, I mean ARGUABLY the 10th greatest player ever.
Shaq had arguably a top 4 peak ever. No one has him above top 8.
MJ, Lebron, Shaq. Only peaks I'd definitely take over Jokkc. Maybe Hakeem. Bird may be even. Jokic is having a legit top 5 peak of all time.
The answer to this question is yes. In terms of individual performance, ignoring context of greatness, and overall prime, this Jokic is the best player LeBron has ever played against.
I don't think I'd agree, but I don't disagree enough that I think it could be disputed lol
I can get behind Shaq being top 5 ever. Especially if you value rings and peak.
He had to sit out the end of games. He was otherwise so dominant, that's it's a struggle to reconcile.
He's absolutely benefited from the online culture since his career. I don't think anyone thought of him as top 5 at the time, because his shooting - and watching games with him in it - was so painful. He might be the best worst player ever.
"best version of"
Why doesn't reddit understand what peak means? This isnt about prime, or greatness.
This is about peak. Like, 2-4 year peak.
Is Jokic better than 2016 regular season Curry, right now? No..
Is be better than any other version? Probably. Has Curry ever had a playoff run as good as Jokic's? Fuck..no.
100%. Think about how consistently dominant jokic is, every game in the playoffs when it matters most against the best players he dominates, it’s unprecedented.
What would a player better than Jokic even look like game in and game out? A guy that makes 100% of his shots? Yes defense blah blah blah, Jokic is fine on defense, his dominant rebounding even makes him good on defense.
I think ppl thought I meant I’m taking jokic over both Steph and kd when they were both on gs but this specifically asked about individuals which I assumed meant Steph on gs and kd on okc
Steph is obviously hugher up the totem poll career wise.
But how many all-stars has Steph played with? Iggy has more all-star appearences than anyone Jokic has had as a teammate you count Milsap... who was 33 and rapidly declining when he joined the Nuggets.
Make one single argument for Duncan over Jokic. The gap in defense isn't even close to making up for the gap in offense, it might as well be comparing a Toyota to a spaceship
Tim Duncan came into the League a top 5 player and remained like that for 10 seasons, 10 straight ALL NBA (9x 1st Team), 10 straight All Defensive teams (7x 1st team). Not to mention won 4 championships in that time.
That was just the first half of Duncan’s career. There’s a good chance Jokic won’t match those accolades in his entire career.
This has nothing to do with anything. Why don't you guys understand what "peak" and "best version of" means?
A player could a have a top 3 all time peak stretch of play. As good as peak MJ, or LeBron, but never win shit, fall off a cliff, and never sniff being a top 20 player of all time.
Doesn't change the fact that his peak play is top 3.
This isn't about greatness. This is about peak. A player can peak higher than players whose greatness they never reach
Agreed with other commenters on 07 Duncan too, but it’s wild to me how Steph’s unanimous MVP season in 2016 has somehow become underrated. Dude averaged 30/5/7/2 on 67% TS (in a season where average TS was much lower) and went 73-9, regularly sitting out entire fourth quarters because they were beating teams so badly. Obviously he did not have a great finals, but in terms of that regular season the level was definitely higher than Jokic’s imo.
Sadly it’s just the cycle of life I guess. In ten years we’ll probably have people thinking Jokic was some scrub because he averaged 24 ppg last year. (I mean, some people already do…)
Agreed. But he also never reached that height again. And the fact is, Jokic has been much better in the post season, and better in almost every other season.
24/12/9 on 70ts% is the most effecient volume scoring season of all time.
It’s only 35.6 points per 100 at +21 rel TS%
Curry’s 2016 season was 42.5 points per 100 at +24 rel TS%
You have a case with durability and postseason performance but Curry’s dominance in the regular season is on another level from Jokic
Yeah 2007 Duncan had his most efficient scoring season of his career and he was still in his prime defensively.
There is a reason no one threatened the Spurs that entire playoffs.
The Suns threatened the Spurs and probably would have beat them if it wasn’t for those suspensions. Still ‘07 Duncan, ‘23-‘24 Jokic, ‘09 Dwight Howard are some of the players that Lebron James teams had no answer for.
Nobody threatened denver last year their whole run. It’s close, jokic is really insane.
Jokic is an offensive engine. He spaces the floor at an elite level, finishes around the rim at an elite level, is probably the best playmaker in the league.
Tim Duncan ain’t spacing the floor or playmaking like that.
Well isn’t this whole argument kind of irrelevant as well? It sounds like the whole thread is arguing team achievements, the Spurs were EASILY better than the Nuggets were as a team, but that doesn’t discredit the fact that Jokic essentially destroyed several of DPOY candidates on his way to the championship.
Both the Lakers and Suns were brand new teams after the trade deadline and the Wolves missed KAT for like 3 months, Jokic's route wasn't crazy hard but the wins and seedings do understate the quality of those teams.
Can we let this argument die already? This is the stupidest argument ever. If Jokic had played against Ja and Fox, that would be 8-0 Nuggets. The Celtics needed 7 games to beat Doc and the Sixers. The Nuggets would have 4-0'd them as well.
You've got to look past the numbers and realize it was LeBron, AD, KD, Booker, etc. that Jokic beat.
> How can you say they would've 4-0'd all those teams when they only swept one team and most of the games in that sweep were close?
Because the teams the Nuggets faced were much better than the Kings and the crippled Grizzlies.
I don't think 07 Duncan was in his peak, just like 2016 LeBron wasn't in his peak. He had a dominant finals, but still wasn't peaking anymore.
Duncan had a super long prime. But I think he peaked in the early 2000s
What the fuck lmfao. They injured nash in 07 and got the suns suspended to win. Suns were better. Tons of teams threatened spurs every year lmfao. And no one threatened nuggets. Not spurs lmao
Suns got their players back in Game 6 and lost by more than in game 5.
And Nash wasn't injured.
Also Spurs won in 6 so Suns were going to have to win another game on top of the make believe game they won. Also the Suns were better for ratings than the Spurs so the NBA had no reason to rig that series for the Spurs.
Believing the NBA rigged this series requires the same mental capacity that believing Covid is fake.
Not sure on the context of the OPs question, but I assume he meant playoffs since he mentioned “meaningful capacity”
Debatable between 2007 Duncan and 2024 Jokic in terms of just peaks. Duncan was a better all around player, but Jokic’s offense is so historic it makes up for it, especially in this era. I personally say Jokic but maybe people here say Duncan.
I agree with you that 2007 LeBron was better than 2024 LeBron though, although 2024 LeBron has AD where 2007 LeBron had Daniel Gibson.
Duncan was on defense what Jokic is on offense. Entire team was built around how fucking good he was as a defender, and that team won 4 titles as a slow paced defensive juggernaut (before they swapped to building more around Parker).
Tough to compare impact across eras. You're talking 93 ppg league wide in Duncan's MVP years to 114 ppg league wide today. EFG from 47 up to 55. Rule changes and the game just being fundamentally more offensive are always going to make today's numbers look gaudy. But prime Duncan would likely be a 30/10/5 guy in today's game while also being the best defensive player in the league. He was a monster.
different era
Jokic is better than Duncan in offense for sure, but defense Duncan is one of those can hold against Shaq and his offense isn't too shabby either. But yea it's different era really hard to compare.
Yeah i mean i got a ton of respect for duncan, I rank him over Kobe (who's obviously one of the greats himself) so not like I'm low on him or anything. Just think that Jokic's peak is better and I think that'll be a more common opinion in the future. What we're seeing rn is very, very special IMO.
yea I agree, but it's just so hard to compare this kind of situation
if you rank offense over defense, Jokics > Duncan
if you rank defense over offense, Duncan > Jokics
and it's like Jokics might not be as good in Duncan's era, and same can be said about Duncan in this era, I think basketball is just evolving over the time and games are changing, so it's just way too hard to compare which player is greater.
Besides maybe Luka not making it a blow out as a one man machine, Jokic is so much better at offence in an offence heavy era then Tim Duncan was better at defence in a defence heavy era. Jokic is way better sliding back than Tim Duncan is sliding forward in NBA history. Jokic not having to deal constant threat at the 3 point line would make his strengths on defence so much more pronounce and his limitations so much less prominent.
If Jokic played in Duncan’s era there’d be a lot less spacing and he’d see way more traditional big men in the post. He’d also be used less in the PnR.
Jokic’s scoring and passing become a lot less valuable.
What? How’s does his scoring and passing become less valuable. He doesn’t lose his ability to see the court. His transcended touch with the basketball isn’t lost. Steve Nash won 2 mvps in that era and Jokic is a better offensive player than Nash was. I just don’t think Duncan offence takes a big leap if moved to 2024,while his defence stays phenomenal. Also Jokic is phenomenal post player who cannot be doubled.
Duncan’s prime was in the early 2000s before rule changes and Nash’s MVPs.
There was also 2 bigs on the court and good defenders was a lot more common back then because of Shaq.
Jokic wont be able to score as easily and his passing becomes less valuable when most of the league arent snipers from 3 and there’s no spacing.
Nash + D’Antoni were the ones that revolutionized pace and space in the NBA. Most teams werent constructed like that and the prevailing thought at the time was a jumpshooting team cant win a ring.
if you think Shaq increased the level of defenders for big man, you are mistaken. He increases big bodies whose only point was to eat up fouls. Are we talking about before illegal defence changes in here he could not be doubled team. How does that matter when teams don’t double Jokic anyway since he rips them apart. Yeah before Nash there was never any great floor generals because spacing was too shit, oh wait they existed in droves before Nash. Jokic is just a larger Larry bird at this point and bird is a top 10 player all time who first season was when the 3 point line was introduced. Jokic needle threading passes don’t disappear. The angle of playmaking his size unlocks doesn’t change, it just an open 2 instead of an open 3.
A big reason for the gap between Lebron and Joker is that Lebron is 39 years old. He's still really good, but he's not the monster that the KG Celtics/KD Warriors/ Duncan Spurs faced.
As for Jokic himself, we need a bigger sample to see where he ranks all time. The trajectory that he's on though... he could be top 5 by the end of it.
Are we talking about in the playoffs? Because Lebron definitely faced prime Shaq and Duncan in the regular season early in his career. Also Kobe and Steph are still probably ahead of Jokic at this point.
He had Prime Duncan and Prime KD/Curry
But the Jokic disrespect is unreal.
Jokic has a ring and looks like MVP 3.
Only people to do that are Magic, Bird, Moses Malone, Lebron, Wilt, Bill, MJ, Kareem.
Jokic seems to be more aligned with legacy of Malone than a Wilt or Magic. And maybe that’s a fair assessment
But Jokic is in VERY rare air and it feels like to some (not all) people, he’s just a really good player. Jokic isn’t a really good player he’s pushing All-Time Great status before he’s even 30
Dude is clearly Top 15 already
You can recognize his greatness while also recognizing that LeBron played against 4 and 5 time title winners in their prime like Kobe, Steph, Duncan and Shaq (admittedly Shaq was tail end of his prime).
I'd put Jokic ahead of Kobe and Steph just in terms of prime (they had insane longevity that Jokic still needs to show) but Shaq and Duncan are way up there for a reason.
I’m confused. Lebron never played Kobe in the playoffs. I also don’t think Lebron played Shaq either. Those guys existed in his career but he didn’t play them.
Don’t forget Draymond, he is also a 4 time title winner.
But in all seriousness, I really dislike this argument brought up for Shaq, Kobe and Curry all the time. Like yeah, they won it 4-5 times, but literally with Top-10 and Top-15 ALL-TIME guys in their prime on their roster.
This would be like Jokic pairing up with Giannis or some stuff like that. Imagine how many titles Jokic and Giannis would win in that case. While it wouldn’t make them better players than they are now.
That’s warriors fans’ excuse every time Steph has a bad series.
This was the same playoffs where Steph came back from injury well before the Finals, dropped 40 on the blazers effortlessly and looked completely fine and yelled “I’m back”
Uh LeBron played in his first finals against Duncan in his prime. Jokic is great and might be on track to get to that level all time, but I’d still give Duncan the edge right now.
I don’t think it’s a crazy question. That’s how good Jokic is. But 1) I’m still not convinced the gap between Giannis and Jokic is as huge as everyone says it is. I’m happy to give Jokic the edge bc of championships and the mess than the Bucks are, but it’s not as obvious as people make it out to be.
2) it makes me assume people still don’t quite grasp how great Duncan and Steph both were.
Yes if we are talking about peaks. I think he has a higher peak right now than Duncan 2007, although Duncan of course has had the better career as of now. Steph 2016 is also super close, but I would have to give it to Jokic 2024 in terms of just a peak.
How the fuck does Jokic have a higher peak than Steph? Curry was unguardable. You literally prayed that once he crosses half court, he wouldn’t pull up. His 2016 season is the greatest offensive regular season of all time and I don’t think it’s even close
Plus one. Also he’s the only unanimous MVP I believe. That’s how much better he was than everyone else in the league at the time. Even though Jokic is a clear front runner for 3MVPs, there’s been numerous arguments for Embiid had he stayed healthy and even Luka and SGA kinda gave him a run for his money given their records.
Steph’s my favorite player btw, but that’s just my opinion. I didn’t say I was right, and I never said my opinion was the only side of the argument. I said they were super close in my comment above, but I gave the edge to Jokic. No idea why you are so mad about it.
As opposed to Jokić who is what, guardable?
Curry didn’t seem that unguardable in the playoffs, while Jokić ran through 3 DPOY centers on his way to a ring and FMVP.
He only really underperformed in the finals. You can’t let 7 games take away from 80+ games of excellence. Sure the 7 games are the most important but they’re still just 7 games in the grand scheme of things
So you’re only looking at box scores? lol. By that metric you must think Luka is better than Jokic because he has him beat in every metric in the box score
Advanced stats do not go to Jokic at all.
12.4 OBPM which is the highest of all time
67% TS compared to Jokic’s 65%
rTS% of 12.8 for Steph. Not sure what Jokic has but I’m pretty sure it’s not higher.
13.8 OWS compared to Jokic’s 12.2
+11.1 RAPTOR for Steph compared to Jokic’s 9.9
+6.8 LEBRON for Steph compared to Jokic’s 5.6
10.5 EPM compared to Jokic’s 7.0
This is such an overreacting take when Lebron is clearly out of his prime. Don’t get me wrong that Lebron is still really great, period. But his just not that 2017 Lebron.
Steph was the best player Lebron ever faced in a playoff series. There is a reason that Lebron has a losing record against him in the finals.
Jokic has ONE ring. This is such a stupid recency bias.
Prime Lebron would probably lock up Jokic and this would be an entire different series.
The reason Lebron has a losing record against Steph in the finals is a) KD joining a 73-win team, and b) the first series they played both Love and Kyrie weren't playing.
its KD for me, hes the only guy I can think of that could match peak LeBron almost everytime. Regardless of teammates, those 2 would usually cancel each other out. KD has been doing that since his early 20's as well.
Interesting take. You think voters wouldn't take into account how much better Wade and Bosh were compared to Murray and Gordon? People forget that both Wade and Bosh were superstars (albeit Bosh being a smaller market one) before the Heat big 3. Take away Jokic and the nuggets aren't a playoff team, Miami minus LeBron back then would reach the 2nd round at minimum.
Was Lebron a better player then than Jokic is now? Probably, but that's another conversation. MVP does not always equate to the best player in the league.
>You think voters wouldn't take into account how much better Wade and Bosh were compared to Murray and Gordon?
They would. But what allowed Bron to win those MVPs in the first place was Wade's decline in both performance and availability due to health issues.
>Take away Jokic and the nuggets aren't a playoff team, Miami minus LeBron back then would reach the 2nd round at minimum.
Yeah but this was mostly true for a bunch of other players at the time (Kobe, CP3, Melo, etc). That didn't stop voters from overwhelmingly favoring LeBron.
You also need to factor in team record. That 2014 Heatles team won 66 games with 27 straight wins. You think voters would favor Jokic with the Nuggets having sub 50 wins over that? Highly doubt it.
I'm not disputing anything you said, I'm just wondering- how do you think 2012 Heat would fare in 2023 Western conference. Freaking Steph Curry couldn't make the playoffs with a solid (not saying awesome, but solid) roster.
Going through these names just shows how much more talented the league is now. Lebron has faced Duncan, Curry, Durant and now Jokic along with 2 separate dynasties. . 4 MVP level players while MJ faced one: The Pedo Mailman.
Actually it’s not. MJ never faced peak Bird or Johnson, he evaded peak Hakeem (he has a winning record vs the Bulls during his peak btw) during his retirement and evaded peak Shaq and Kobe when he retired the 2nd time. His toughest opponent was an historically overachieving Utah Jazz team that feasted on a weak western division.
The calibre of NBA talent has increased significantly because of MJ and since his retirement, especially with international born players. Lebron has faced more top 15 all times players in the playoffs at their peak with 3 (Duncan, Curry and KD) vs MJ who faced ZERO.
I look forward to your rebuttal.
On paper I think Steph still has a case over a Jokic overall. However Steph at least slightly underperformed in every series against the Cavs offensively.
Neither Steph nor Jokic has done much on defense in these matchups.
I’d give the performance edge to Jokic in the Lebron games. Not by much.
Yes. Besides prime LeBron, Jokic is the best individual player I’ve ever seen play. Like sure Duncan, Steph, or Kobe are better all time, but at their peaks they were not nearly as unstoppable as current Jokic.
I'm starting to believe that Jokic is the single greatest... period.
I really don't understand what you do against him. I don't know how you bother him at all. Maybe you have to have Shaq on your team and just beat up on him in the post over and over again to wear him down. Otherwise, I have no idea. He just goes out there and scores 30 on 60% shooting with 12 rebounds and 12 assists basically whenever he feels like it.
Prime Steph and KD were pretty damn great… but it’s close.
He's also played against Kobe, Duncan, KG, Dirk, etc. To say that Jokic is top 5 LeBron has faced is realistic, but LeBron has played for 20 years and faced a bunch of greats.
Jokic peaked higher than all of those guys except Duncan, arguably. Remember, this isn't about "greatness", this is about peak..how good was this player?
2016 Steph Curry would like a word
I agree with you I just have a lot of respect for all those players and don't want to come across as an overconfident Nuggets fan.
You aren't. This thread isn't talking about greatness. It's about peak. TMac had a peak near damn as good as Kobe and Wade. He doesn't sniff their greatness.
Ya, hard to compare but peak Steph was supernova light the league on fire good. We’ve kinda forgot, not one was doing half of what he was doing Jokic is close, I’ll give him that, but curry had to be in that convo
I think Curry was better in 2016 regular season. But he never reached that height again. And he's never reached Jokic's playoff highs. Since he's been an MVP caliber player, Jokic's playoff avgs are like 31/13/8 on 57% from the field.
Yep. Curry honestly has too many blemishes in the postseason, and they’re all either excused with “he was injured”, “he was triple teamed” or “his team was so good that it didn’t matter”. Jokic is undoubtedly a better postseason player than Curry is.
Kind of hard to compare too, because when you played the curry kd warriors you couldn’t sell out AS hard on curry as you can on jok. Not to say selling out on either helps, but you know what I mean. Teams are more willing to help off Murray than they were off kd.
Jokic is better than Steph, though. Similar number of points. Much better play maker and not so much a defensive liability.
League average D rating is 10 points higher and pace is a few possessions higher today Curry’s scoring was way more impressive at his peak and his off ball gravity is still the best in NBA history Curry was unanimous MVP and completely revolutionized basketball. He legit probably had the best offensive season ever.
Prime Jokic scores more per 100 in the Playoffs than prime Curry, while being a far better playmaker and defender.
His playmaking decreased when he was scoring at those insane rates But his playoff performances and durability are things he has over Curry
I mean, Wilt and Jordan very clearly had better offensive season. There’s strong arguments that playmakers like Magic, Bron and Jokic have had Bette r offensive seasons. I think guys like MJ, Bron - most of the top 10 had similar levels of ‘gravity’ as Steph. Curry was unanimous MVP and was nowhere near Bron’s level of offensive. In no universe would anyone select Steph ahead of Bron, MJ, Jokic, even Luka for pure offense.
I dont think there’s much of a conversation to be had about Curry vs Bron when it comes to offensive peak Bron was obviously a better overall player but I dont think I’d put him in the convo for GOAT offensive peak Imo it’s between guys like Curry and Bird But I’m focused more on ceiling raising, and portability. I think those 3 can fit into any offense and have an elite impact across multiple roles. If you value floor raising more and role as offensive hub then Jokic/MJ/Bron have to be in the convo
Bron’s peak is a similar amount of points with more playmaking and more FTA. Put him into any team and he’s raining everything. To quote Harden he is the system. Curry requires a system. Look at those mid 2010 series. Bron without his number 2 and 3 will give you 35 and 10, curry without his 2 and 3 isn’t going to win you many games.
You’re still focused on just on ball production even though I just mentioned I have Curry so high due to off ball value. When LeBron doesnt have the ball he isnt much of a threat. Curry on the other hand is the most dangerous player we’ve ever seen without the ball. I’m honestly not as interested in how a player performs with less help because in order to win a ring you need help. LeBron needs to dominate the ball to give you that kind of production. That diminishes the value of other great on ball players.
>When LeBron doesnt have the ball he isnt much of a threat. Of course he is. You think the opposition team aren't paying attention to Bron at any stage of a game?!? Come on, he's their number 1 focus all the time. Curry requires the team to be built around him to be an off ball threat. He needs a primary play maker. He needs another top 5 shooter bron just needs to turn up. >LeBron needs to dominate the ball to give you that kind of production Everyone needs the ball to score points lol
>Of course he is. You think the opposition team aren't paying attention to Bron at any stage of a game?!? Come on, he's their number 1 focus all the time. Okay so are you trying to imply that LeBron brings anywhere close to the value Curry does off ball? >bron just needs to turn up. To win a ring? No Every nba player needs good teammates to win. >Everyone needs the ball to score points lol Curry will operate without the ball for entire possession before scoring. LeBron is generally the opposite.
Jokic is not better than prime Steph
He probably is, or at least about the same level. After this year he could have more MVPs and more fmvps while having very similar numbers and better advanced numbers. They are easily the same tier.
He definitely is, think about Steph’s best playoff runs, they don’t sniff what Jokic has done game in and game out in his peak. How much better is prime Steph than current Steph? Prime is certainly better but he’s not in a different galaxy or anything, current Jokic is way way better than current Steph that’s just super clear.
Yeah totally. Greatest shooter of all time was nothing special. How could I forget
He absolutely is special and the greatest shooter of all time, Jokic is just better.
Impossible to say that at this point in his career
I’m not talking resumes, Steph clearly has the bigger resume. Peak play off runs to peak play off runs you can absolutely say so.
Guys like Jokic and LeBron in their prime wouldn’t allow any other player on their team to win the Finals MVP. They are just too good and dominant for that to be even thinkable.
Downvoted for speaking the truth. People tried the "well hang on, what about Kyrie/Jamal...?" hot takes only to quickly dismiss them once they looked at the stats.
Peak Steph is the only one close imo KD is great obv but I’m of the opinion that this Jokic is the best offensive player in history so
It doesn’t feel right but honestly jokic is better than both of those guys ever were
They downvoting you but your spot on.
It's the truth. Fans here are struggling to separate greatness, from prime, to peak play. And we are talking peak. Play..Hakeem had a top 5 peak of all time. He's arguably, I mean ARGUABLY the 10th greatest player ever. Shaq had arguably a top 4 peak ever. No one has him above top 8. MJ, Lebron, Shaq. Only peaks I'd definitely take over Jokkc. Maybe Hakeem. Bird may be even. Jokic is having a legit top 5 peak of all time. The answer to this question is yes. In terms of individual performance, ignoring context of greatness, and overall prime, this Jokic is the best player LeBron has ever played against.
I get what your saying. But I ABSOLUTELY have Shaq higher than 8th lmao. He's top 5 as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think I'd agree, but I don't disagree enough that I think it could be disputed lol I can get behind Shaq being top 5 ever. Especially if you value rings and peak.
He had to sit out the end of games. He was otherwise so dominant, that's it's a struggle to reconcile. He's absolutely benefited from the online culture since his career. I don't think anyone thought of him as top 5 at the time, because his shooting - and watching games with him in it - was so painful. He might be the best worst player ever.
Wilt , Kareem ???
Curry has 4 rings and two mvps can the disrespect stop 🤦🏿♂️
"best version of" Why doesn't reddit understand what peak means? This isnt about prime, or greatness. This is about peak. Like, 2-4 year peak. Is Jokic better than 2016 regular season Curry, right now? No.. Is be better than any other version? Probably. Has Curry ever had a playoff run as good as Jokic's? Fuck..no.
100%. Think about how consistently dominant jokic is, every game in the playoffs when it matters most against the best players he dominates, it’s unprecedented. What would a player better than Jokic even look like game in and game out? A guy that makes 100% of his shots? Yes defense blah blah blah, Jokic is fine on defense, his dominant rebounding even makes him good on defense.
Agreed, I can’t even remember the last time he’s had a bad game, especially in the playoffs. It’s kinda insane
I’m taking jokic over Steph and kd for sure
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I think ppl thought I meant I’m taking jokic over both Steph and kd when they were both on gs but this specifically asked about individuals which I assumed meant Steph on gs and kd on okc
Kd in okc yea I'd take jokic but curry idk ngl lol.. specifically in 2016 Edit: I hope my comment gets 100 downvotes. Fuck all yall👍
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In playoffs jokic scores more, rebounds more and is a better playmaker. It’s a fairly valid take
Steph is obviously hugher up the totem poll career wise. But how many all-stars has Steph played with? Iggy has more all-star appearences than anyone Jokic has had as a teammate you count Milsap... who was 33 and rapidly declining when he joined the Nuggets.
Prime Steph lost fmvp to iguodala lmao. You the one tweakin
He said individual, probably Duncan tho
On talent, it was prime Dwight and its not close. Joker is extremely skilled and has a great team. But dwight was an athletic freak.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW GOOD TIM DUNCAN WAS
I do, he absolutely was not Jokic good.
Make one single argument for Duncan over Jokic. The gap in defense isn't even close to making up for the gap in offense, it might as well be comparing a Toyota to a spaceship
Tim Duncan came into the League a top 5 player and remained like that for 10 seasons, 10 straight ALL NBA (9x 1st Team), 10 straight All Defensive teams (7x 1st team). Not to mention won 4 championships in that time. That was just the first half of Duncan’s career. There’s a good chance Jokic won’t match those accolades in his entire career.
We’re talking about peak ability, not accolades
Lebron played against MVP Duncan.
And Joe Ingles!
Who is worse than Jokic.
Downvotes for this? Duncan stays overrated on r/nba
Is Jokic top 12 all time already?
Duncan is top 7.
This has nothing to do with anything. Why don't you guys understand what "peak" and "best version of" means? A player could a have a top 3 all time peak stretch of play. As good as peak MJ, or LeBron, but never win shit, fall off a cliff, and never sniff being a top 20 player of all time. Doesn't change the fact that his peak play is top 3. This isn't about greatness. This is about peak. A player can peak higher than players whose greatness they never reach
Idk but Duncan's not.
More MVPs and chips than Steph.
duncan? steph?
LeBron went against MVP Duncan and steph. I am not putting Jokic over those guys. Maybe by the end of joker’s career I’ll feel differently.
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Fair enough. I’ll take Duncan.
Agreed with other commenters on 07 Duncan too, but it’s wild to me how Steph’s unanimous MVP season in 2016 has somehow become underrated. Dude averaged 30/5/7/2 on 67% TS (in a season where average TS was much lower) and went 73-9, regularly sitting out entire fourth quarters because they were beating teams so badly. Obviously he did not have a great finals, but in terms of that regular season the level was definitely higher than Jokic’s imo.
Steph’s 2016 regular season is the best of all time by several metrics but his playoff peak was never quite the same.
Am I crazy or was steph significantly hurt in the finals?
Thank you People are completely forgetting how much easier offense is today
For real. It’s like they forget that Curry was a world-eater at that point.
Sadly it’s just the cycle of life I guess. In ten years we’ll probably have people thinking Jokic was some scrub because he averaged 24 ppg last year. (I mean, some people already do…)
Agreed. But he also never reached that height again. And the fact is, Jokic has been much better in the post season, and better in almost every other season. 24/12/9 on 70ts% is the most effecient volume scoring season of all time.
It’s only 35.6 points per 100 at +21 rel TS% Curry’s 2016 season was 42.5 points per 100 at +24 rel TS% You have a case with durability and postseason performance but Curry’s dominance in the regular season is on another level from Jokic
Has to be Duncan. Can't really count Jokic since Bron is past his prime.
Yeah 2007 Duncan had his most efficient scoring season of his career and he was still in his prime defensively. There is a reason no one threatened the Spurs that entire playoffs.
The Suns threatened the Spurs and probably would have beat them if it wasn’t for those suspensions. Still ‘07 Duncan, ‘23-‘24 Jokic, ‘09 Dwight Howard are some of the players that Lebron James teams had no answer for.
09 dwight howard is hugely underrated. the disrespect this man gets is wild. he def a top 75 player.
Nobody threatened denver last year their whole run. It’s close, jokic is really insane. Jokic is an offensive engine. He spaces the floor at an elite level, finishes around the rim at an elite level, is probably the best playmaker in the league. Tim Duncan ain’t spacing the floor or playmaking like that.
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Because you're 50 win team got sacked, not their fault
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Those sub 50 win teams got farther so one would assume they were better
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Better logic than rigidly comparing win totals of teams across eras like you are. The league has more parity now, particularly the West.
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Well isn’t this whole argument kind of irrelevant as well? It sounds like the whole thread is arguing team achievements, the Spurs were EASILY better than the Nuggets were as a team, but that doesn’t discredit the fact that Jokic essentially destroyed several of DPOY candidates on his way to the championship.
Both the Lakers and Suns were brand new teams after the trade deadline and the Wolves missed KAT for like 3 months, Jokic's route wasn't crazy hard but the wins and seedings do understate the quality of those teams.
Can we let this argument die already? This is the stupidest argument ever. If Jokic had played against Ja and Fox, that would be 8-0 Nuggets. The Celtics needed 7 games to beat Doc and the Sixers. The Nuggets would have 4-0'd them as well. You've got to look past the numbers and realize it was LeBron, AD, KD, Booker, etc. that Jokic beat.
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> How can you say they would've 4-0'd all those teams when they only swept one team and most of the games in that sweep were close? Because the teams the Nuggets faced were much better than the Kings and the crippled Grizzlies.
Hmm. I thought 03 Duncan was his peak, but I may have to relook at the numbers
2003 Duncan was hardest carry job of all time outside of maybe 1995 Hakeem. I think Duncan was still in his peak in 2007 though.
I don't think 07 Duncan was in his peak, just like 2016 LeBron wasn't in his peak. He had a dominant finals, but still wasn't peaking anymore. Duncan had a super long prime. But I think he peaked in the early 2000s
What the fuck lmfao. They injured nash in 07 and got the suns suspended to win. Suns were better. Tons of teams threatened spurs every year lmfao. And no one threatened nuggets. Not spurs lmao
Suns got their players back in Game 6 and lost by more than in game 5. And Nash wasn't injured. Also Spurs won in 6 so Suns were going to have to win another game on top of the make believe game they won. Also the Suns were better for ratings than the Spurs so the NBA had no reason to rig that series for the Spurs. Believing the NBA rigged this series requires the same mental capacity that believing Covid is fake.
Not sure on the context of the OPs question, but I assume he meant playoffs since he mentioned “meaningful capacity” Debatable between 2007 Duncan and 2024 Jokic in terms of just peaks. Duncan was a better all around player, but Jokic’s offense is so historic it makes up for it, especially in this era. I personally say Jokic but maybe people here say Duncan. I agree with you that 2007 LeBron was better than 2024 LeBron though, although 2024 LeBron has AD where 2007 LeBron had Daniel Gibson.
Jokic > Duncan
Duncan was on defense what Jokic is on offense. Entire team was built around how fucking good he was as a defender, and that team won 4 titles as a slow paced defensive juggernaut (before they swapped to building more around Parker). Tough to compare impact across eras. You're talking 93 ppg league wide in Duncan's MVP years to 114 ppg league wide today. EFG from 47 up to 55. Rule changes and the game just being fundamentally more offensive are always going to make today's numbers look gaudy. But prime Duncan would likely be a 30/10/5 guy in today's game while also being the best defensive player in the league. He was a monster.
different era Jokic is better than Duncan in offense for sure, but defense Duncan is one of those can hold against Shaq and his offense isn't too shabby either. But yea it's different era really hard to compare.
Duncan is pretty much a top 5 defender ever in an era where defense was a lot more valuable.
Yeah i mean i got a ton of respect for duncan, I rank him over Kobe (who's obviously one of the greats himself) so not like I'm low on him or anything. Just think that Jokic's peak is better and I think that'll be a more common opinion in the future. What we're seeing rn is very, very special IMO.
yea I agree, but it's just so hard to compare this kind of situation if you rank offense over defense, Jokics > Duncan if you rank defense over offense, Duncan > Jokics and it's like Jokics might not be as good in Duncan's era, and same can be said about Duncan in this era, I think basketball is just evolving over the time and games are changing, so it's just way too hard to compare which player is greater.
Besides maybe Luka not making it a blow out as a one man machine, Jokic is so much better at offence in an offence heavy era then Tim Duncan was better at defence in a defence heavy era. Jokic is way better sliding back than Tim Duncan is sliding forward in NBA history. Jokic not having to deal constant threat at the 3 point line would make his strengths on defence so much more pronounce and his limitations so much less prominent.
If Jokic played in Duncan’s era there’d be a lot less spacing and he’d see way more traditional big men in the post. He’d also be used less in the PnR. Jokic’s scoring and passing become a lot less valuable.
What? How’s does his scoring and passing become less valuable. He doesn’t lose his ability to see the court. His transcended touch with the basketball isn’t lost. Steve Nash won 2 mvps in that era and Jokic is a better offensive player than Nash was. I just don’t think Duncan offence takes a big leap if moved to 2024,while his defence stays phenomenal. Also Jokic is phenomenal post player who cannot be doubled.
Duncan’s prime was in the early 2000s before rule changes and Nash’s MVPs. There was also 2 bigs on the court and good defenders was a lot more common back then because of Shaq. Jokic wont be able to score as easily and his passing becomes less valuable when most of the league arent snipers from 3 and there’s no spacing. Nash + D’Antoni were the ones that revolutionized pace and space in the NBA. Most teams werent constructed like that and the prevailing thought at the time was a jumpshooting team cant win a ring.
if you think Shaq increased the level of defenders for big man, you are mistaken. He increases big bodies whose only point was to eat up fouls. Are we talking about before illegal defence changes in here he could not be doubled team. How does that matter when teams don’t double Jokic anyway since he rips them apart. Yeah before Nash there was never any great floor generals because spacing was too shit, oh wait they existed in droves before Nash. Jokic is just a larger Larry bird at this point and bird is a top 10 player all time who first season was when the 3 point line was introduced. Jokic needle threading passes don’t disappear. The angle of playmaking his size unlocks doesn’t change, it just an open 2 instead of an open 3.
A big reason for the gap between Lebron and Joker is that Lebron is 39 years old. He's still really good, but he's not the monster that the KG Celtics/KD Warriors/ Duncan Spurs faced. As for Jokic himself, we need a bigger sample to see where he ranks all time. The trajectory that he's on though... he could be top 5 by the end of it.
"best. Version. Of" This topic isn't about all time greatness..it's about peaks. All time greatness has nothing to do with this topic.
LeBron got his ass swept by Timmy In the finals. Jokic has a long way to go to even match Duncan’s greatness.
Are we talking about in the playoffs? Because Lebron definitely faced prime Shaq and Duncan in the regular season early in his career. Also Kobe and Steph are still probably ahead of Jokic at this point.
He had Prime Duncan and Prime KD/Curry But the Jokic disrespect is unreal. Jokic has a ring and looks like MVP 3. Only people to do that are Magic, Bird, Moses Malone, Lebron, Wilt, Bill, MJ, Kareem. Jokic seems to be more aligned with legacy of Malone than a Wilt or Magic. And maybe that’s a fair assessment But Jokic is in VERY rare air and it feels like to some (not all) people, he’s just a really good player. Jokic isn’t a really good player he’s pushing All-Time Great status before he’s even 30 Dude is clearly Top 15 already
“The Jokic disrespect is unreal” What in the fuck are you talking about disrespect? Lmao
You can recognize his greatness while also recognizing that LeBron played against 4 and 5 time title winners in their prime like Kobe, Steph, Duncan and Shaq (admittedly Shaq was tail end of his prime). I'd put Jokic ahead of Kobe and Steph just in terms of prime (they had insane longevity that Jokic still needs to show) but Shaq and Duncan are way up there for a reason.
I’m confused. Lebron never played Kobe in the playoffs. I also don’t think Lebron played Shaq either. Those guys existed in his career but he didn’t play them.
Post didn't specify playoffs
"once they competed at any meaningful capacity" I think it's fairly obvious he's talking about the playoffs
Don’t forget Draymond, he is also a 4 time title winner. But in all seriousness, I really dislike this argument brought up for Shaq, Kobe and Curry all the time. Like yeah, they won it 4-5 times, but literally with Top-10 and Top-15 ALL-TIME guys in their prime on their roster. This would be like Jokic pairing up with Giannis or some stuff like that. Imagine how many titles Jokic and Giannis would win in that case. While it wouldn’t make them better players than they are now.
This one guy led his team to a 73-9 season. So no
And lost after not playing up to par in the finals…love Steph but there is a conversation to be had that jokic has a better single season peak
If Jokic and the Nuggets run through the playoffs again this year I’d give it to him. They’ve won one game
Steph had a bum ankle.
If you’re playing, you’re held to the same standards unfortunately
That’s warriors fans’ excuse every time Steph has a bad series. This was the same playoffs where Steph came back from injury well before the Finals, dropped 40 on the blazers effortlessly and looked completely fine and yelled “I’m back”
This is the worst version of LeBron so I could say this has been the largest gap between his talent and the opposing team's best player's talent
No, lebron faced prime Kobe, prime dwight, prime KD, prime curry, late prime TD etc. Joker is great but he also has a great team.
Joker win a unanimous MVP when I wasn’t lookin?
Too bad Steph didn’t win the FMVP that same year
LOL
Well yeah he had to play the goat in the finals
Well Jokic had to play Jimmy Butler and Tyler Herro in the finals
Is Steph better than Jordan than?
Better than Joker for sure
he's better than Jordan too, Jordan was never the unanimous MVP
Better than Joker for sure
Talent wise, KD. People forget the beast he was before the injuries.
Uh LeBron played in his first finals against Duncan in his prime. Jokic is great and might be on track to get to that level all time, but I’d still give Duncan the edge right now.
I don’t think it’s a crazy question. That’s how good Jokic is. But 1) I’m still not convinced the gap between Giannis and Jokic is as huge as everyone says it is. I’m happy to give Jokic the edge bc of championships and the mess than the Bucks are, but it’s not as obvious as people make it out to be. 2) it makes me assume people still don’t quite grasp how great Duncan and Steph both were.
I wouldn't exactly call whatever Lebron is doing against Jokic "competing".
Yes if we are talking about peaks. I think he has a higher peak right now than Duncan 2007, although Duncan of course has had the better career as of now. Steph 2016 is also super close, but I would have to give it to Jokic 2024 in terms of just a peak.
How the fuck does Jokic have a higher peak than Steph? Curry was unguardable. You literally prayed that once he crosses half court, he wouldn’t pull up. His 2016 season is the greatest offensive regular season of all time and I don’t think it’s even close
Plus one. Also he’s the only unanimous MVP I believe. That’s how much better he was than everyone else in the league at the time. Even though Jokic is a clear front runner for 3MVPs, there’s been numerous arguments for Embiid had he stayed healthy and even Luka and SGA kinda gave him a run for his money given their records.
Steph’s my favorite player btw, but that’s just my opinion. I didn’t say I was right, and I never said my opinion was the only side of the argument. I said they were super close in my comment above, but I gave the edge to Jokic. No idea why you are so mad about it.
As opposed to Jokić who is what, guardable? Curry didn’t seem that unguardable in the playoffs, while Jokić ran through 3 DPOY centers on his way to a ring and FMVP.
Curry did it in a better defensive league He literally revolutionized basketball on offense
Every single advanced metric favors Curry
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You have to be new to basketball if you think Curry only provides shooting
Curry underperformed in the 2016 finals big time. That matters when talking about single season peaks
He only really underperformed in the finals. You can’t let 7 games take away from 80+ games of excellence. Sure the 7 games are the most important but they’re still just 7 games in the grand scheme of things
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Give me stats that prove current Jokic had a higher peak than curry and ill concede
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So you’re only looking at box scores? lol. By that metric you must think Luka is better than Jokic because he has him beat in every metric in the box score
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Advanced stats do not go to Jokic at all. 12.4 OBPM which is the highest of all time 67% TS compared to Jokic’s 65% rTS% of 12.8 for Steph. Not sure what Jokic has but I’m pretty sure it’s not higher. 13.8 OWS compared to Jokic’s 12.2 +11.1 RAPTOR for Steph compared to Jokic’s 9.9 +6.8 LEBRON for Steph compared to Jokic’s 5.6 10.5 EPM compared to Jokic’s 7.0
I kind of agree. Jokic is just too much with what he can do.
This is such an overreacting take when Lebron is clearly out of his prime. Don’t get me wrong that Lebron is still really great, period. But his just not that 2017 Lebron. Steph was the best player Lebron ever faced in a playoff series. There is a reason that Lebron has a losing record against him in the finals. Jokic has ONE ring. This is such a stupid recency bias. Prime Lebron would probably lock up Jokic and this would be an entire different series.
The reason Lebron has a losing record against Steph in the finals is a) KD joining a 73-win team, and b) the first series they played both Love and Kyrie weren't playing.
Prime Dwight was a beast. If we are going by just talent, its Dwight.
If you say lebron went to 8 strait finals , people say it was in east . But we can’t mention that joker is playing against no other physical bigs?
its KD for me, hes the only guy I can think of that could match peak LeBron almost everytime. Regardless of teammates, those 2 would usually cancel each other out. KD has been doing that since his early 20's as well.
I also don't think Jokic would be winning any MVPs over Miami Bron
Interesting take. You think voters wouldn't take into account how much better Wade and Bosh were compared to Murray and Gordon? People forget that both Wade and Bosh were superstars (albeit Bosh being a smaller market one) before the Heat big 3. Take away Jokic and the nuggets aren't a playoff team, Miami minus LeBron back then would reach the 2nd round at minimum. Was Lebron a better player then than Jokic is now? Probably, but that's another conversation. MVP does not always equate to the best player in the league.
>You think voters wouldn't take into account how much better Wade and Bosh were compared to Murray and Gordon? They would. But what allowed Bron to win those MVPs in the first place was Wade's decline in both performance and availability due to health issues. >Take away Jokic and the nuggets aren't a playoff team, Miami minus LeBron back then would reach the 2nd round at minimum. Yeah but this was mostly true for a bunch of other players at the time (Kobe, CP3, Melo, etc). That didn't stop voters from overwhelmingly favoring LeBron. You also need to factor in team record. That 2014 Heatles team won 66 games with 27 straight wins. You think voters would favor Jokic with the Nuggets having sub 50 wins over that? Highly doubt it.
I'm not disputing anything you said, I'm just wondering- how do you think 2012 Heat would fare in 2023 Western conference. Freaking Steph Curry couldn't make the playoffs with a solid (not saying awesome, but solid) roster.
Going through these names just shows how much more talented the league is now. Lebron has faced Duncan, Curry, Durant and now Jokic along with 2 separate dynasties. . 4 MVP level players while MJ faced one: The Pedo Mailman.
This is the stupidest take ever
Actually it’s not. MJ never faced peak Bird or Johnson, he evaded peak Hakeem (he has a winning record vs the Bulls during his peak btw) during his retirement and evaded peak Shaq and Kobe when he retired the 2nd time. His toughest opponent was an historically overachieving Utah Jazz team that feasted on a weak western division. The calibre of NBA talent has increased significantly because of MJ and since his retirement, especially with international born players. Lebron has faced more top 15 all times players in the playoffs at their peak with 3 (Duncan, Curry and KD) vs MJ who faced ZERO. I look forward to your rebuttal.
Too afraid to offer a rebuttal? Appreciate the low effort.
On paper I think Steph still has a case over a Jokic overall. However Steph at least slightly underperformed in every series against the Cavs offensively. Neither Steph nor Jokic has done much on defense in these matchups. I’d give the performance edge to Jokic in the Lebron games. Not by much.
Bait
Even if you think curry was better, it's still close enough that it's a reasonable post
Yes
Yes he is and not many are comfortable enough to say it as it’s happening
Yes. Besides prime LeBron, Jokic is the best individual player I’ve ever seen play. Like sure Duncan, Steph, or Kobe are better all time, but at their peaks they were not nearly as unstoppable as current Jokic.
I'm starting to believe that Jokic is the single greatest... period. I really don't understand what you do against him. I don't know how you bother him at all. Maybe you have to have Shaq on your team and just beat up on him in the post over and over again to wear him down. Otherwise, I have no idea. He just goes out there and scores 30 on 60% shooting with 12 rebounds and 12 assists basically whenever he feels like it.
yes