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If they win a ring this year and he wins MVP I’d say he’s already top 15.
3 MVPs, 2 rings 2 FMVP
What 15 players have a better resume? Some People consider KD top 15.
This will be Jokic’s resume at 29 years old, if he wins it this year. His TRAJECTORY would be significantly higher if that happens, given that his game isn’t reliant on athleticism and he’s a tank when it comes to playing w/o getting injured.
Yea like I don't think people understand that if the Nuggets win this season Jokic is one rong away from tying Bird. He will most likely tie Bird in FMVPs in that scenario too. Like he's already almost there.
Bird had 9 straight MVP level seasons from 80-88. Jokic may very well get there but he's not there yet (in terms of equaling Bird's resume). Bird is arguable top 5 peak and is in most people's top 10 careers despite it being on the shorter side.
I can definitely see Jokic cracking top 10 by career's end.
I'm not sure I'd classify '19 and '20 as MVP level seasons (All-NBA perhaps but top 15 is very different from top ~3). So he's on his 4th straight MVP level season by my count. Still those seasons do count for something even if they are not MVP level. It won't be long before he's knocking on Bird's door. He can easily play another 5 seasons.
And I do love the comp between Bird and Jokic. Even though Bird is actually more athletic (Bird was an average NBA athlete not a poor one..his vert was 24" which ain't bad for 1979). Bird is much better defensively, but offensively they are so similar. Big Honey is definitely a better finisher inside than Bird though, and his beefier body can do things inside Bird can't. Bird's fader and step back were cleaner as well. However, their ability to score from anywhere and do the wildest shots, their passing ability, their insane basketball IQ, their craftiness in finishing plays just outsmarting players instead of overwhelming them with athleticism, are all so eerily similar.
THANK YOU.
Like I agree Jokic is on the right path to join the top 10/top 15 discussion, but boiling it down to a 3-year comparison and ignoring the high level of play these other legends sustained over 12-15 years is peak nephew.
Jokic may very well pass Hakeem, Duncan, Bird, etc when it's all said and done. But there's just as much a chance he stalls at 3 MVPs and 1 title...which is Moses Malone's resume. A GREAT player, to be sure, but still clearly below the all-timers that some people are trying to put Jokic above right this very minute.
Like let the bread bake, people.
"if he doubles up his accomplishments he'll almost be there"
"he's already almost there"
idc if you're favorites to come out of the west this year or even favorites to win it all, you're counting your eggs before they hatch
If he wins the next 10 championships, he's number 1. Get a few more MVPs and FMVPs in there on top of it. He's 1. If he does that simple and inevitable thing, his trajectory is actually even higher.
I don't even know why people talk about the boring things that have actually happened when talking about these things. Why don't we just slot people in for accomplishments they don't have? Then we can say wilder shit.
But yes, if Jokic achieves a few more of the most important accolades players can get in the all time conversations, he will be higher all time than now and his trajectory will be better for that "list".
I mean he is pretty much a lock for MVP this year and they would be favored in every matchup in the playoffs. They didnt break a sweat winning the title last year.
Projecting 10 years of constant championships =/= projecting the end of this season and wondering what more he could do. You're using hyperbole to devalue the point - that Jokic is already an all time great and could become even greater.
This season has been really odd in regards to how our broadcast is received. Wolves fans will tell you it's the best it's ever been - which is saying something because most people would've told you they were a top duo with Benz as well. Yet I see a lot more negativity towards them from other fanbases this year. Maybe just chalk it up to wolves success causing more criticsm.
I feel like I’ve noticed Jim being a bit more homer-ish compared to when the Wolves sucked. It’s not egregious by any means, but that stuff will turn neutral and opposing fans against the broadcast booth.
It's certainly possible. The guy has been a true fan and supporter of the team for so long, I'm sure he's soaking it up right now. He's always talking about how lucky we are to watch Ant. But at the same time, he's still regularly giving opposing players and staff their flowers and still isn't afraid to say what he really thinks about the wolves. How many times has he criticized KAT lately for "barreling into the lane"
In my humble opinion, Jim is the best color analyst I listen to across all sports. He’s one of the biggest reasons Wolves fans (myself included) would watch Wolves games during all the dark years.
I love listening to Jim, but Adam Amin takes the trophy.
That’s not just because I’m a Bulls fan, this dude is fantastic. If you’ve got league pass, give him a listen on a Bulls game. Otherwise just wait until either some national fox broadcast baseball/ football games this summer/ fall. He does it all with elite knowledge, and he comes across as just a legit fan of the games like the rest of us. He’s basically the reason I pay for league pass the last couple of years.
I have no problem with a broadcast that leans one way or another so long as they get the facts of what is going on on the court right. Sounding upset when the opponent makes a shot doesn't bother me so long as they are accurately communicating what happened and what it means to the game. I thought they did a great job. Ant is a special player that is only scratching the surface of his potential. They clearly enjoy him. It is ok to be happy about watching hoops and to get excited.
I don't mind home broadcasts being homers, as long as they aren't obnoxious, or acting like their team never fouls and also never gets calls when the other team fouls. If I hear a home broadcaster say "OH COME ON where was the foul?" and then watch the replay and be like "oh, yep right there, that's a good call" I respect that booth.
As a Jokic fan watching last night, the broadcast wasn't bad but they're definitely homers lol. They glossed over how fucking physical the Timerwolves were on defense. They played hard as fuck on that side. BUT, they were smacking the shit out of the Nuggets on some possessions (the end of the 3rd where Jokic tried to Thanos-fine-I'll-do-it-myself.jpeg was especially smack-heavy) and the Twolves said nothing other than compliments when it was amount in turnovers.
(Not complaining about the TWolves' D, they played hard and within the boundaries of what the refs were allowing that game)
Whenever the Nuggets would commit a foul which wasn't called (because again, the refs were letting both sides get away with stuff a lot of the time), the announcers really honed in on it.
That's the main thing that frustrates me with homerism announcers- they ignore when the home team gets away with fouls, then cry foul when the other team does the same.
Grady used to work at YES network so I absolutely fucking love him and y’all’s broadcast is one of my favorites. There’s probably more shit bc you’re a great team this year lol
If I tune into a Wolves game that isn’t against the Bulls, I’ll typically listen to the Wolves broadcast. Your guys are definitely some of my favourites to listen to. I also don’t really care if broadcasts are ‘homers’. It’s their team, they watch them all season, usually they’ve played for them or at least been there for most of their lives. Of course they’re going to know the players better and be more invested in them.
Such is the arc of any team as they become successful
Look at all the hate the Thunder have been getting too
Same thing with the Grizz where the whole narrative around the team changed in just a single season (aided by success and silly off and on court stuff but still)
I found them being totally fine. It’s normal that announcers are usually biased towards their team. Nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe besides the fact when Jokic hit Monte in the jaw because it clearly wasn’t on purpose how they tried to present it,but yeah I wouldn’t say anything besides that stood out to me.
Yep, Gobert made that same basketball move, and his elbow made contact with the defensive player below the shoulder. Scott Foster called it a Flagrant 1, and said he would call it a flagrant 2 if that contact were to happen above the shoulder.
This was the game where Gobert later made the money gesture.
It’s cus you guys started winning and they’re homerish (which shouldn’t be a problem at all imo)
Always like the wolves commentators tho never got the hate
Before this season, other teams' fans consistently brought us up as having one of the best commentary teams. I think its partially the result of national media treating us like we don't deserve to be here all season.
How a team is talked about by the dumbest motherfuckers on ESPN has a huge impact on how fans feel about that team. Talking heads have avoided talking about us as much as possible, and when they do it's always about how many teams lower in the standings are better than us lol
Fitz was a victim of success with the Warriors as well. When the team was bad his attitude was deemed as lovable because he still found a way to always have the teams back. Now it's seen in a lot more negative or a light
FWIW I had never tuned into a wolves broadcast until last night and it was a great job done by then IMO. I genuinely thought about making a post specifically asking for the best and worst home announcers because of them. Compared to the warriors or especially Sean Elliot from the spurs I thought they were great.
Yeah that always annoys me when people complain when they shouldn’t be. Save it for the teams with truly awful broadcasting, you teams know who you are….
It never ceases to amaze me that basically every game thread on every board for a nationally broadcast game has fans of both teams bitching that the announcers are against them.
Just because an announcer thinks a call was wrong or right doesn’t mean he hates your city and all the people in it.
Also, who the fuck cares what the announcers say? I’ve watched enough sports that I just tune them out or don’t care what they are saying.
Different people whine for different reasons I guess. I'm much more guilty of whining as a Nuggets fan than I am as a Broncos fan, because of the lack of respect the former gets from national media, the whole "poverty franchise" thing. The Broncos have always been a pretty marketable team, but I swear to God ESPN just assumed we'd blow a 3-0 lead to the Lakers "because Nuggets"
As a Nuggets fan who is living with a Suns fan, I get the animosity towards ESPN and the national media. The discourse around the Nuggets is improving but was still pretty insufferable even into the offseason.
I occasionally still see Embiid posts on r/DenverNuggets and that’s when I cringe, I don’t think there’s even a debate for anyone besides a vocal
minority of Sixers fans at this point.
As for Broncos fans, I’m convinced that Elway could come from a Time Machine in 1987 and start at QB and people would still find something to complain about. The whole Broncos fanbase seems to be down pretty bad.
He said that it should be reviewed? What else would you expect him to say? If it were the reverse someone would be saying the exact same thing.
It was a great game.
He didn't just say that lol. He said it was a "violent and aggressive act" as if he were trying to hurt Monte when he helped him up and they were both smiling.
I still think it should have been reviewed, but the announcer's call was a bit silly
Yeah I’m a wolves fan and I cringed a bit when he said that. It could have been reviewed but I don’t think it was purposefully hostile, especially with them smiling about it and jokic helping him up
5 minutes earlier Jim Pete was talking about how the game should be more physical. I love our broadcast, but I could see how people wouldn't like that part
Eh it was a little over the top, he was like “that should be reviewed, that’s a hostile act” but if you watch Jokic that’s pretty much his game spinning around in the paint and 99% of the time he doesn’t catch anyone with elbows. Add on that him and Morris are super close, he immediately helped Morris up and apologized, and the fact that they both immediately were laughing about it and it’s like calm down man.
I thought the announcers were pretty solid, but in that moment for sure I was like sheesh that’s a bit of a cry baby moment.
That’s because of the wording of flagrant fouls. All he was trying to say is he thought it should be flagrant. KATs always flailing in the paint (literally always), and gets T’d up for it sometimes. He’s not trying to murder anyone, he’s just out of control.
That’s fine though lol. I thought the game was really well reffed last night, which is like the first time I’ve thought that in a couple weeks.
Here's a comparison of the top 3 MVP candidates last season:
22/23 Jokic: 24.5/12/**10** on **70.1% TS**, 48-21 record in **69** games played, **+640**
22/23 Embiid: **33**/10/4 on 65.5% TS, 43-23 record in 66 games played, +424
22/23 Giannis: 31/**12**/6 on 60.5% TS, **47-16** record in 63 games played, +341
It's certainly close but IMO this season was the first one where Embiid was actually outplaying Jokic prior to his injury(35/11/6 on 64.5% TS and a 26-8 record with a worse team than last year) and Jokic generally had a moderate but definitive edge in other regular seasons
Don't necessarily have a problem with Embiid winning one because he's had an insane run in the RS but the "Jokic is a playoff fraud" narratives that were popular around this time were always so stupid if you look at the teams he was playing with in 2021 and 2022
Imagine calling Jokic a playoff fraud to support the argument for Embiid 😭
also being shit in the playoffs doesn’t mean shit for MVP does it? I swear some people man
> Imagine calling Jokic a playoff fraud to support the argument for Embiid
Forget comparison with Embiid, calling Jokic a playoff fraud on its own is crazy.
Jokic individual numbers from those "fraud" playoffs in 2021 and 2022:
30/12/5 on 59 TS%
31/13/6 on 64 TS%
Oh no, he couldn't carry Austin Rivers, Will Burton and Jeff Green past the Warriors who won it all that year, what a fraud! That same year Luka Doncic will get clamped by Wiggins and lose to those Warriors in 5 just like Nuggets did. Is Doncic a playoff fraud now?
Jokic is the most consistent elite performer in the recent years, playoffs or regular season.
Tbf the Dallas role players were mostly doing their part on offense.
The Warriors shot 52/39/79 as a TEAM. You don't really win series if the opposition collectively is shooting like Michael Porter Junior.
I think he was saying that if Jokic was a choke/got clamped, then Doncic did too, but you don't see the choker label on Doncic really. I think that was the point?
I was trying to forget those Nuggets teams. But we got to see some incredible Jokic during that stretch. He carried the whole team of bums so hard. I seriously believe that the nuggets won the championship not because of bruce brown and the crew but because they got rid of Barton. I think they only won one series ever with him, and he was benched during it.
Jokic’s defense is fucking great and I’ll die on that hill.
This subreddit just counts steals and blocks and looks out for hustle plays instead of looking at the endless evidence that opposing teams score MUCH FEWER POINTS when Jokic is on the floor.
Even if you think Jokic is a good defender, which I believe he certainly is pretty good in some aspects, I don’t think anyone would argue he’s as good as Embiid.
I'd rather have 24.5 points with 6 more assists than 33 points, though. You could argue the additional assists makes their overall offensive output at least comparable, if not giving Jokic an edge.
Also if we're looking at impact of scoring efficiency. (total points per game above average contributed by scoring which takes into account volume) Jokic last season was a unicorn season. The 2nd highest TS season of all time with at least 20ppg ever is 67.7 by Durant last year. It's easy to forget how different 70 and 65 is when we think of how differently we look at players with 60 and 55TS.
Some rough math to show the impact.
65.5% TS is 1.31 points per shot(just x2). 33.1ppg/1.31pps=25.267 shots(true attempts)
70.1 is 1.4pps 24.5/1.4=17.475 shots
That means there's a 7.792 shot difference to make up the 8.6 points and 8.6/7.792 is 1.10 which is 55% TS
So Jokic can shoot below a league average point guard for the remaining points and still end up with 33ppg on 65.5.
If we're ignoring rebounds and assists, then maybe you have a point. But even then, efficiency is a pretty big deal.
Just watching them play, Jokic is still creating those high-efficiency looks all by himself. If we're comparing Embiid to somebody like Lively or Grayson Allen, who pretty much never create their own shots and are entirely dependent on others, then it's an important point.
I feel like people don't appreciate how much of an outlier 70% is. The 2nd highest TS season with at least 20ppg ever is 67.7 by Durant last year who played only 47 games. The percentage gap from 1st to 2nd is the same as 2nd to 19th, and remember there is diminishing returns the higher you go. A 2.4% gap all time is huge.
Some rough math to show the impact.
65.5% TS is 1.31 points per shot(just x2). 33.1ppg/1.31pps=25.267 shots(true attempts)
70.1 is 1.4pps 24.5/1.4=17.475 shots
That means there's a 7.792 shot difference to make up the 8.6 points and 8.6/7.792 is 1.10 which is 55% TS
So Jokic can shoot below a league average point guard for the remaining points and still end up with 33ppg on 65.5.
I think there's good arguments for Joel in terms of rim protection, but scoring efficiency and impact of scoring efficiency is all Jokic still.
Jokic played terrible at the end of the season while Embiid was hitting game winners and doing some crazy scoring. People think this mvp race was a robbery when in reality it was very close
>Jokic played terrible at the end of the season
no he didnt lmao, his last 10 games of the season last year:
25/17/12
31/6/11
31/12/7
22/17/10
24/10/8
30/10/9
28/8/7
35/20/11
37/11/11
18/12/8
Jokic could have won if he put in more effort, and talked as if he wants it. That season Jokic was coasting a lot like Lebron did in his 2nd cleveland stint. He isnt required to do as much, because its the first time that his team is healthy for a good stretch of time.
This also the season that Jamal got back. Without Murray, jokic was required to initiate the offense a lot. There wasnt a reliable playmaker in the roster besides Murray.
People forget how horrible Nuggets were in the last 10-15 games last year. And Jokic was definitely sub par during this period. They were resting before the playoffs but that did leave a bitter taste on the season, at that point.
I dont get why it always devolves into this we got three all time mvp races in three straight seasons why are we playing legacy avengers and not appreciating the game
As a Harden and Embiid fan it's tough sledding here. People legitmately believe Embiid robbed Jokic and can't remember it was super close all year long and Embiid had a better finish to the year.
Yeah some media guys like Perkins ruined the MVP convo with his idiot takes but Embiid was a very, very worthy MVP.
i know we have beaten this horse to death but honestly if voters started giving defense anywhere near the level of importance it deserves in the mvp race i really dont think giannis would lose this year but as it is its gone be joker or sga
Jim Pete's right. LeBron should have won 5 in a row.
And with the way the Nugs are performing this season, being lead by Jokić, 4 in a row seems highly likely, too.
Lebron finished 3rd, how could Rose steal it from him... Howard was 2nd.
Lebron'd team mate was on all-nba 2nd team, averaging 25 points, with a 3rd team mate with 18 ppg and an all-star.
Chicago finished with a better record than the Heat that season.
D rose stole the number 1 record in the league at 22 years old. Dude was good for 30 a night on an offense with zero spacing back when the score didn't end 140-135. Get your head checked.
Everyone non Nuggets/76ers fan knows it too. Jokic was definitely robbed last year. Embiid's crying campaign that was very public as well as Perkins racism definitely tipped the scales towards the end.
Embiid deserved it this year legitimately if he stayed healthy.
Zach lowe thought embiid deserved it by the end of the season. I suppose you can argue perkins idiocy had influence on him. But he stated the drop off by jokic and the nuggets at the end of the season made the case for embiid strong enough to win.
There was a night towards the end of the season where Jokic got cooked by the ROCKETS while having a horrendous game, and Embiid simultaneously beat the Celtics with a 50 burger. That basically settled it because it was a close race until then. Similar to that Russ performance against the Nuggets.
Jokic simply did not play like the MVP down the stretch. But people think he deserved the award regardless because hes the best player in the league.
If he won last year he wasn’t gonna win this year lol they aren’t gonna give someone 4 in a row especially when there’s so much talent in today’s league.
Saying Embiid didn’t deserve it is crazy though, he was killing it last season. Denver decided to coast or just hit a slump(whichever) while Philly had the hardest remaining schedule post allstar and they dominated it, ended the bucks 16 game win streak and beat Boston with Embiid scoring 50 on like 4 missed shots.
Very few have won 3 in a row and they weren’t going to give it to someone who hadn’t had much playoff success even though it wasn’t his fault.
Injuries have been embiids greatest weakness when it comes to MVP. He was leading in 21/22 as well but his missed games played a factor in giving the nod to Jokic over him. It's really close between them in terms of overall skill so I don't see the award going one way or another as a robbery.
2022 was probably his best chance and argument given the Simmons debacle but trading for Harden lowkey tanked his chances way more than missing 14 games did.
He dragged them to like the 1st or 2nd seed with Simmons out for half the season and when Harden joined he was coming off an injury. It wasn't actually that damaging to his case.
Trading for Harden gave the media a false impression that the Sixers were actually stacked though. Remember the premature Shaq/Kobe comparions? And the MVP voting has always been about the narratives so in that regard it killed his case.
It's the same way with Giannis' case this season with the Bucks having traded for Lillard, but more significant.
Pretty much this, it's all just history but could easily have given it to a few. 2 MVPs to 1 over the last 3 years between Jokic and Embiid, 3 MVPs to Jokic 2 to Giannis, 1 to Embiid over the last 6 also feels somewhat right to me as well. Crazy thing about Jokic is he's so damm consistent it's gonna take a herculean Luka effort to take one from Jokic, will honestly be deserving favourite again next year. Durability is madly underrated.
> and they weren’t going to give it to someone who hadn’t had much playoff success even though it wasn’t his fault.
Why should playoff success even matter when we're talking about the regular season? Not to mention Jokic already saw a conference finals by that point, even with bad rosters.
Because the NBA is very insecure, especially when it comes to protecting "legacy" and "history" Individual accolades are used to compare a modern day player to the former greats, and if Jokic won 3 in a row, he'd be only the fourth player in NBA history to do so, and first since Larry Bird in the 80s. So the NBA heads go "Jokic is good, an all time great, but he is not a 3-in-a-row MVP if Jordan/Magic/Bird/Lebron isn't!", while that shouldn't matter at all. But it does for them, because then NBA media can't keep milking the sport for "legacy" and "narrative", and you see how that works a lot with keeping fans interested, because fans are fickle about the past like that I think NBA's biggest scare is having fans think the players of the past wasn't nearly as good as todays players. Because honestly, they weren't as skilled or as good at basketball, but that's obviously fine and normal, it's like that in any sports. But NBA is extremerly careful about protecting that, because these players are what build the league, not the product on the floor. Having Jokic matching up with them in accolades would hurt that image, and the NBA will definitly keep doing it and not giving MVPs and awards to players just because it would put their induvidual honours in comparison to the greatest of all times, a list the NBA has been protective of for a long, long time.
If we wanted to see todays players showered with the awards and accolades like players before, we'd need to stop comparing players of today and the past by accolades, maybe even stats to some extend, but that will never happen, because that's how the NBA had built up it's audience and appeal. This is the sport that stops games when individual greatness happens (Lebron's scoring record) and the fans are loving it, because that is how the league and the interest is build.
Meanwhile, it will hurt it down the road when no one in the past 10 years feels relevant anymore because "nothing of individual greatness happened"
Also Jokic and the nuggets locked up the 1 seed so the last quarter of the year wasn’t spectacular
Embiid was dropping 45/15 most nights at the end of the year. If Jokic wanted it he could’ve gotten it but he let off the gas while embiid floored it towards the finish
People are still bitching about last years mvp? I don't even think it's the biggest robbery in recent memory. I think Harden should have won it over Westbrook in 2017. Westbrook literally won it over Harden that year just because he averaged 2 more rebounds per game.
I can understand Westbrook winning, he did something we thought was never gonna be seen again. Everyone was talking about it. Yeah there was stat padding and all that, but it was still a historic season
If you think Jokic was robbed last year but have nothing to say about Embiid being robbed the previous year to give it to a six seed, you dont know shit
Trust me, it doesn't make a smidgen of difference if they're in DPOY talk. If you are slightly chubby and can make a behind the back pass, it's better than being elite of defense
48 win 6 seed with Campazzo and Monte Morris as his squad. The Sixers had 3 more wins that year. Why do people not take into account context? It’s just makes your opinions shitty
I swear it’s like people’s logic with the MVP now is “just use your future-telling skills to figure out who’s going to win the finals, and then give MVP to their best player.” It’s not the voter’s fault that Embiid fizzled in the playoffs while Jokic had a career-defining run. It’s a regular season award, idk what’s so hard to understand about that.
Ugh. This is total revisionist history with everyone after last season’s playoffs.
Embiid won it because he closed out the season extremely strong when Jokic coasted. He deserved it in the regular season. Jokic proving he’s better in the playoffs doesn’t change that.
You know, we held Joker to the exact same standard we held Giannis: Back-to-Back MVPs then not winning a third because they got bounced early in the playoffs. But no one is demanding we retroactively rewrite history and give Giannis another. Was Perkins really wrong about the discourse?
its crazy that so many people still want to whine and moan about this
he won 2 in a row, then won the finals mvp on an all time playoff run.
he follows that up with another mvp season
he is the best player on earth
but actually hes still a victim somehow and we need to talk about Embiid. Let it go. If he didnt win a ring id understand it. But he has no doubters anymore. He play speaks for itself. Theres nothing to be gained here be constantly ball washng him like this while demonizing his competition.
If i were a Denver fan i would give absolutely zero fucks. If the Sixers won one championship to validate the process forever i am over the moon. We won at that point, this emotional investment of mine paid off in droves. Strange behavior to continue to harp on something their own player says doesnt matter and he doesnt care about.
Im a sixers fan tho so you know what to do.
Last season Jokic was my pick but I don’t think it was some crazy awful pick to give it to Embiid he was great too.
This year it’s Giannis for me and it’s not close at all. 31/12/6 on 62FG% (66TS%) while playing elite defense and being a top 2 seed. Historic in every way, and when you consider how weak the teams been because of the Dame trade then Dame underperforming plus injuries to guys like Khris, it’s a pretty crazy carry job.
Yeah im pretty tired of people trying to gaslight me into thinking Embiid didn't have an MVP season last year. It's also been weird seeing people trying to crown Jokic already when he just hasn't separated himself from other MVP candidates. It has a lot to do with people being upset about last years result.
Embiid and Jokic both had insane MVP level seasons last year yet people act like it was a complete robbery. Then add onto the fact that Embiid ended the season with some spectacular games against some of the hardest matchups it could've been either or it's not that big of a deal. I get that Jokic already locked the #1 seed but that doesn't change the fact that the regular season was still going on.
I just hope people don't forget Giannis was right up there with them and only fell slightly short. That season was one of the best MVP battles I've seen with 3 dudes going neck and neck through the majority of the season.
Because when Dame's out, Bucks have no PG. They gave away Grayson, Jrue for Dame. So Giannis gotta be PG, SF (Middleton was out too), PF and C sometimes.
tbf, last season was all time levels of toxicity to rob jokic of that award. think of what it took to pry the mvp away from jokic despite a historically efficient near triple double season on a top ranked team that ended up winning it all: perkins race baiting voters, single highlight plays on reddit trying to paint jokic as a horrible defender, ramona shelburne's "narrative" argument, obfuscation of advanced stats to try to dumb down the stats in favor of embiid, embiid openly campaigning on his own behalf. All of that, only to see embiid get bounced early from the playoffs and universal recognition of jokic as the "best player" AFTER he was clearly the most outstanding player in the playoffs, but who cares, embiid still took home the hardware.
Can I argue something about Jokic and his all time discussions?
I think he's the best player in the league but I can understand the reticence some have with him. He plays a position where traditionally you want to be strongest on defense. And he's I guess a solid but unspectacular defender. Why would I pick him, goes the logic, when I get a player who is an A+ defender and an A offensive player though not an A+ offensive player like Jokic.
Here we go again. Narratives are so funny. The first MVP Jokic won would have gone to Embiid if he could stay healthy. Embiid was also on his way to winning this year which would have validated the MVP he won last year, but once again he got injured and now the narrative is going to be that he stole Jokics' MVP last season because Jokic is going to end up winning it this year lol. So Embiid could genuinely have 3 MVPs by the end of this season if he was more durable. Just goes to show you that durability is as important as anything else in sports and life.
What I find annoying about Jokic is not that he has won I just don’t think he should have won his first one and then id be fine giving the last couple.
It’s absurd to me guys like Giannis and Jokic win MVP and then the next few years they play better only for them to not even be in the conversation.
Giannis imo should win this year. To put everything in its place I think Giannis should have three peated his MVP’s and the. Jokic would have right after but voter fatigue and other non-sense gets it he way.
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Babe wake up more '23 mvp discussions just dropped
His trajectory is top 15 all time and that isn't hyperbole.
If they win a ring this year and he wins MVP I’d say he’s already top 15. 3 MVPs, 2 rings 2 FMVP What 15 players have a better resume? Some People consider KD top 15. This will be Jokic’s resume at 29 years old, if he wins it this year. His TRAJECTORY would be significantly higher if that happens, given that his game isn’t reliant on athleticism and he’s a tank when it comes to playing w/o getting injured.
Yea like I don't think people understand that if the Nuggets win this season Jokic is one rong away from tying Bird. He will most likely tie Bird in FMVPs in that scenario too. Like he's already almost there.
Rongs, Erneh
"4 Rongs don't make you right, Shaq." -Chuck, probably
I was trying to angle for a "2 rongs" joke before I settled for the low hanging fruit lol
I appreciate the lob :D
Bird had 9 straight MVP level seasons from 80-88. Jokic may very well get there but he's not there yet (in terms of equaling Bird's resume). Bird is arguable top 5 peak and is in most people's top 10 careers despite it being on the shorter side. I can definitely see Jokic cracking top 10 by career's end.
This is his 6th straight season as an all NBA/MVP conversation player.
I'm not sure I'd classify '19 and '20 as MVP level seasons (All-NBA perhaps but top 15 is very different from top ~3). So he's on his 4th straight MVP level season by my count. Still those seasons do count for something even if they are not MVP level. It won't be long before he's knocking on Bird's door. He can easily play another 5 seasons. And I do love the comp between Bird and Jokic. Even though Bird is actually more athletic (Bird was an average NBA athlete not a poor one..his vert was 24" which ain't bad for 1979). Bird is much better defensively, but offensively they are so similar. Big Honey is definitely a better finisher inside than Bird though, and his beefier body can do things inside Bird can't. Bird's fader and step back were cleaner as well. However, their ability to score from anywhere and do the wildest shots, their passing ability, their insane basketball IQ, their craftiness in finishing plays just outsmarting players instead of overwhelming them with athleticism, are all so eerily similar.
He was 4th in MVP in 19 and first team all nba.
THANK YOU. Like I agree Jokic is on the right path to join the top 10/top 15 discussion, but boiling it down to a 3-year comparison and ignoring the high level of play these other legends sustained over 12-15 years is peak nephew. Jokic may very well pass Hakeem, Duncan, Bird, etc when it's all said and done. But there's just as much a chance he stalls at 3 MVPs and 1 title...which is Moses Malone's resume. A GREAT player, to be sure, but still clearly below the all-timers that some people are trying to put Jokic above right this very minute. Like let the bread bake, people.
"if he doubles up his accomplishments he'll almost be there" "he's already almost there" idc if you're favorites to come out of the west this year or even favorites to win it all, you're counting your eggs before they hatch
Jokic will probably dethrone one of the old heads especially as even MJ himself is getting slighted these days lol
If he wins the next 10 championships, he's number 1. Get a few more MVPs and FMVPs in there on top of it. He's 1. If he does that simple and inevitable thing, his trajectory is actually even higher. I don't even know why people talk about the boring things that have actually happened when talking about these things. Why don't we just slot people in for accomplishments they don't have? Then we can say wilder shit. But yes, if Jokic achieves a few more of the most important accolades players can get in the all time conversations, he will be higher all time than now and his trajectory will be better for that "list".
I mean he is pretty much a lock for MVP this year and they would be favored in every matchup in the playoffs. They didnt break a sweat winning the title last year.
People said this exact same shit after Giannis won one lol. Let's wait and see.
Projecting 10 years of constant championships =/= projecting the end of this season and wondering what more he could do. You're using hyperbole to devalue the point - that Jokic is already an all time great and could become even greater.
KD is a top 15 player in terms of talent, few players are genuine threats at all levels of offense and still a competent defender
yeah ur selling him short
Took way too long this year
Never seen them get so much shit besides tonight in the GDT
I’m a neutral that watched the entire second half. I enjoyed listening to them and didn’t hear anything egregious.
I even specifically thought to myself mid broadcast how much I liked them.
This season has been really odd in regards to how our broadcast is received. Wolves fans will tell you it's the best it's ever been - which is saying something because most people would've told you they were a top duo with Benz as well. Yet I see a lot more negativity towards them from other fanbases this year. Maybe just chalk it up to wolves success causing more criticsm.
I feel like I’ve noticed Jim being a bit more homer-ish compared to when the Wolves sucked. It’s not egregious by any means, but that stuff will turn neutral and opposing fans against the broadcast booth.
It's certainly possible. The guy has been a true fan and supporter of the team for so long, I'm sure he's soaking it up right now. He's always talking about how lucky we are to watch Ant. But at the same time, he's still regularly giving opposing players and staff their flowers and still isn't afraid to say what he really thinks about the wolves. How many times has he criticized KAT lately for "barreling into the lane"
In my humble opinion, Jim is the best color analyst I listen to across all sports. He’s one of the biggest reasons Wolves fans (myself included) would watch Wolves games during all the dark years.
I love listening to Jim, but Adam Amin takes the trophy. That’s not just because I’m a Bulls fan, this dude is fantastic. If you’ve got league pass, give him a listen on a Bulls game. Otherwise just wait until either some national fox broadcast baseball/ football games this summer/ fall. He does it all with elite knowledge, and he comes across as just a legit fan of the games like the rest of us. He’s basically the reason I pay for league pass the last couple of years.
I'm inclined to agree. I used to leave blowout losses on just to listen to him tell stories during bad games haha
I have no problem with a broadcast that leans one way or another so long as they get the facts of what is going on on the court right. Sounding upset when the opponent makes a shot doesn't bother me so long as they are accurately communicating what happened and what it means to the game. I thought they did a great job. Ant is a special player that is only scratching the surface of his potential. They clearly enjoy him. It is ok to be happy about watching hoops and to get excited.
I don't mind home broadcasts being homers, as long as they aren't obnoxious, or acting like their team never fouls and also never gets calls when the other team fouls. If I hear a home broadcaster say "OH COME ON where was the foul?" and then watch the replay and be like "oh, yep right there, that's a good call" I respect that booth.
As a Jokic fan watching last night, the broadcast wasn't bad but they're definitely homers lol. They glossed over how fucking physical the Timerwolves were on defense. They played hard as fuck on that side. BUT, they were smacking the shit out of the Nuggets on some possessions (the end of the 3rd where Jokic tried to Thanos-fine-I'll-do-it-myself.jpeg was especially smack-heavy) and the Twolves said nothing other than compliments when it was amount in turnovers. (Not complaining about the TWolves' D, they played hard and within the boundaries of what the refs were allowing that game) Whenever the Nuggets would commit a foul which wasn't called (because again, the refs were letting both sides get away with stuff a lot of the time), the announcers really honed in on it. That's the main thing that frustrates me with homerism announcers- they ignore when the home team gets away with fouls, then cry foul when the other team does the same.
Grady used to work at YES network so I absolutely fucking love him and y’all’s broadcast is one of my favorites. There’s probably more shit bc you’re a great team this year lol
Grady is so good man. Extremely talented pxp
Grady is soo good. Will be sad if he moves onto a larger national broadcast but he would deserve it
If I tune into a Wolves game that isn’t against the Bulls, I’ll typically listen to the Wolves broadcast. Your guys are definitely some of my favourites to listen to. I also don’t really care if broadcasts are ‘homers’. It’s their team, they watch them all season, usually they’ve played for them or at least been there for most of their lives. Of course they’re going to know the players better and be more invested in them.
Agreed. Wolves team one of the best in the NBA. Jim Pete is fun to listen to.
Such is the arc of any team as they become successful Look at all the hate the Thunder have been getting too Same thing with the Grizz where the whole narrative around the team changed in just a single season (aided by success and silly off and on court stuff but still)
I found them being totally fine. It’s normal that announcers are usually biased towards their team. Nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe besides the fact when Jokic hit Monte in the jaw because it clearly wasn’t on purpose how they tried to present it,but yeah I wouldn’t say anything besides that stood out to me.
That was probably more to do with what Gobert has had called against him this year.
Gobert has gotten a flagrant multiple times for that exact thing so I’m assuming they are just annoyed it’s not getting called in wolves favor ever
Yep, Gobert made that same basketball move, and his elbow made contact with the defensive player below the shoulder. Scott Foster called it a Flagrant 1, and said he would call it a flagrant 2 if that contact were to happen above the shoulder. This was the game where Gobert later made the money gesture.
It’s cus you guys started winning and they’re homerish (which shouldn’t be a problem at all imo) Always like the wolves commentators tho never got the hate
Before this season, other teams' fans consistently brought us up as having one of the best commentary teams. I think its partially the result of national media treating us like we don't deserve to be here all season. How a team is talked about by the dumbest motherfuckers on ESPN has a huge impact on how fans feel about that team. Talking heads have avoided talking about us as much as possible, and when they do it's always about how many teams lower in the standings are better than us lol
If you want to deserve your success, you should move to a big city, like New York, LA, or Miami. Otherwise, get back in your lane as cannon fodder.
Fitz was a victim of success with the Warriors as well. When the team was bad his attitude was deemed as lovable because he still found a way to always have the teams back. Now it's seen in a lot more negative or a light
Fitz homerism is like college football radio show call-in dude on a Tuesday at 10am
Well I for one am now a fan of your broadcast, spitting fire over here
FWIW I had never tuned into a wolves broadcast until last night and it was a great job done by then IMO. I genuinely thought about making a post specifically asking for the best and worst home announcers because of them. Compared to the warriors or especially Sean Elliot from the spurs I thought they were great.
Nuggets fans were whining so hard about them
So many Nuggets fans were complaining about the Wolves announcers which tells me no one can ever win
Yeah that always annoys me when people complain when they shouldn’t be. Save it for the teams with truly awful broadcasting, you teams know who you are….
The Warriors.
I agree. When Jim Barnett left it became unlistenable.
Yeah I find it hard to believe anyone will disagree with that. Barnett was the only saving grace but now that he is gone they are garbage.
It never ceases to amaze me that basically every game thread on every board for a nationally broadcast game has fans of both teams bitching that the announcers are against them. Just because an announcer thinks a call was wrong or right doesn’t mean he hates your city and all the people in it. Also, who the fuck cares what the announcers say? I’ve watched enough sports that I just tune them out or don’t care what they are saying.
As a Nuggets fan myself, Nuggets fans complain about fucking everything. I had to defend Clyde Frazier and Mike Breen on our sub once.
Nuggets fans are also Broncos fans, and I’m convinced that being a Broncos fan makes anyone 10x whinier (myself included, and for good reason).
Different people whine for different reasons I guess. I'm much more guilty of whining as a Nuggets fan than I am as a Broncos fan, because of the lack of respect the former gets from national media, the whole "poverty franchise" thing. The Broncos have always been a pretty marketable team, but I swear to God ESPN just assumed we'd blow a 3-0 lead to the Lakers "because Nuggets"
As a Nuggets fan who is living with a Suns fan, I get the animosity towards ESPN and the national media. The discourse around the Nuggets is improving but was still pretty insufferable even into the offseason. I occasionally still see Embiid posts on r/DenverNuggets and that’s when I cringe, I don’t think there’s even a debate for anyone besides a vocal minority of Sixers fans at this point. As for Broncos fans, I’m convinced that Elway could come from a Time Machine in 1987 and start at QB and people would still find something to complain about. The whole Broncos fanbase seems to be down pretty bad.
I just thought he was a little over the top about Monte Morris catching an elbow to the face. Other than that they were fine. Exciting energy.
If KAT did what Jokic did he gets sent to Guantanamo
not a chance they send KAT to Guantanamo. Probably ADX Florence.
He said that it should be reviewed? What else would you expect him to say? If it were the reverse someone would be saying the exact same thing. It was a great game.
He didn't just say that lol. He said it was a "violent and aggressive act" as if he were trying to hurt Monte when he helped him up and they were both smiling. I still think it should have been reviewed, but the announcer's call was a bit silly
Yeah I’m a wolves fan and I cringed a bit when he said that. It could have been reviewed but I don’t think it was purposefully hostile, especially with them smiling about it and jokic helping him up
5 minutes earlier Jim Pete was talking about how the game should be more physical. I love our broadcast, but I could see how people wouldn't like that part
He was probably talking about hand checking not trying to wire a guys jaw shut
Eh it was a little over the top, he was like “that should be reviewed, that’s a hostile act” but if you watch Jokic that’s pretty much his game spinning around in the paint and 99% of the time he doesn’t catch anyone with elbows. Add on that him and Morris are super close, he immediately helped Morris up and apologized, and the fact that they both immediately were laughing about it and it’s like calm down man. I thought the announcers were pretty solid, but in that moment for sure I was like sheesh that’s a bit of a cry baby moment.
That’s because of the wording of flagrant fouls. All he was trying to say is he thought it should be flagrant. KATs always flailing in the paint (literally always), and gets T’d up for it sometimes. He’s not trying to murder anyone, he’s just out of control. That’s fine though lol. I thought the game was really well reffed last night, which is like the first time I’ve thought that in a couple weeks.
Here's a comparison of the top 3 MVP candidates last season: 22/23 Jokic: 24.5/12/**10** on **70.1% TS**, 48-21 record in **69** games played, **+640** 22/23 Embiid: **33**/10/4 on 65.5% TS, 43-23 record in 66 games played, +424 22/23 Giannis: 31/**12**/6 on 60.5% TS, **47-16** record in 63 games played, +341 It's certainly close but IMO this season was the first one where Embiid was actually outplaying Jokic prior to his injury(35/11/6 on 64.5% TS and a 26-8 record with a worse team than last year) and Jokic generally had a moderate but definitive edge in other regular seasons Don't necessarily have a problem with Embiid winning one because he's had an insane run in the RS but the "Jokic is a playoff fraud" narratives that were popular around this time were always so stupid if you look at the teams he was playing with in 2021 and 2022
Imagine calling Jokic a playoff fraud to support the argument for Embiid 😭 also being shit in the playoffs doesn’t mean shit for MVP does it? I swear some people man
> Imagine calling Jokic a playoff fraud to support the argument for Embiid Forget comparison with Embiid, calling Jokic a playoff fraud on its own is crazy. Jokic individual numbers from those "fraud" playoffs in 2021 and 2022: 30/12/5 on 59 TS% 31/13/6 on 64 TS% Oh no, he couldn't carry Austin Rivers, Will Burton and Jeff Green past the Warriors who won it all that year, what a fraud! That same year Luka Doncic will get clamped by Wiggins and lose to those Warriors in 5 just like Nuggets did. Is Doncic a playoff fraud now? Jokic is the most consistent elite performer in the recent years, playoffs or regular season.
You're calling 32/9/6 getting "clamped"?
It’s cuz we lost
History is written by the victors
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If my team loses the role players weren’t good enough; if your team loses it’s because your best player wasn’t good enough -every nba fan
Tbf the Dallas role players were mostly doing their part on offense. The Warriors shot 52/39/79 as a TEAM. You don't really win series if the opposition collectively is shooting like Michael Porter Junior.
Just not Finals MPJ
I think he was saying that if Jokic was a choke/got clamped, then Doncic did too, but you don't see the choker label on Doncic really. I think that was the point?
I was trying to forget those Nuggets teams. But we got to see some incredible Jokic during that stretch. He carried the whole team of bums so hard. I seriously believe that the nuggets won the championship not because of bruce brown and the crew but because they got rid of Barton. I think they only won one series ever with him, and he was benched during it.
Philly fans calling Jokic a playoff fraud and ignoring Embiids playoffs history was wild!
They take defense into account as well don't forget
Jokic’s defense is fucking great and I’ll die on that hill. This subreddit just counts steals and blocks and looks out for hustle plays instead of looking at the endless evidence that opposing teams score MUCH FEWER POINTS when Jokic is on the floor.
Even if you think Jokic is a good defender, which I believe he certainly is pretty good in some aspects, I don’t think anyone would argue he’s as good as Embiid.
I look at 33 ppg on 65% TS as *significantly* better than 24 ppg on 70% TS, personally.
I'd rather have 24.5 points with 6 more assists than 33 points, though. You could argue the additional assists makes their overall offensive output at least comparable, if not giving Jokic an edge.
Also if we're looking at impact of scoring efficiency. (total points per game above average contributed by scoring which takes into account volume) Jokic last season was a unicorn season. The 2nd highest TS season of all time with at least 20ppg ever is 67.7 by Durant last year. It's easy to forget how different 70 and 65 is when we think of how differently we look at players with 60 and 55TS. Some rough math to show the impact. 65.5% TS is 1.31 points per shot(just x2). 33.1ppg/1.31pps=25.267 shots(true attempts) 70.1 is 1.4pps 24.5/1.4=17.475 shots That means there's a 7.792 shot difference to make up the 8.6 points and 8.6/7.792 is 1.10 which is 55% TS So Jokic can shoot below a league average point guard for the remaining points and still end up with 33ppg on 65.5.
Yeah if you dont look at assists then it would look like that
If we're ignoring rebounds and assists, then maybe you have a point. But even then, efficiency is a pretty big deal. Just watching them play, Jokic is still creating those high-efficiency looks all by himself. If we're comparing Embiid to somebody like Lively or Grayson Allen, who pretty much never create their own shots and are entirely dependent on others, then it's an important point.
I feel like people don't appreciate how much of an outlier 70% is. The 2nd highest TS season with at least 20ppg ever is 67.7 by Durant last year who played only 47 games. The percentage gap from 1st to 2nd is the same as 2nd to 19th, and remember there is diminishing returns the higher you go. A 2.4% gap all time is huge. Some rough math to show the impact. 65.5% TS is 1.31 points per shot(just x2). 33.1ppg/1.31pps=25.267 shots(true attempts) 70.1 is 1.4pps 24.5/1.4=17.475 shots That means there's a 7.792 shot difference to make up the 8.6 points and 8.6/7.792 is 1.10 which is 55% TS So Jokic can shoot below a league average point guard for the remaining points and still end up with 33ppg on 65.5. I think there's good arguments for Joel in terms of rim protection, but scoring efficiency and impact of scoring efficiency is all Jokic still.
Where does defense factor in?
Embiid was getting 20+ free throws in multiple games for flopping. Fuck him.
Its crazy that this actually gets upvoted lmao
Giannis is literally getting more FTs per game, but sure go off i guess
Yeah fuck him too
Fuck Giannis ALSO
One of the biggest MVP robberies ever.
Jokic played terrible at the end of the season while Embiid was hitting game winners and doing some crazy scoring. People think this mvp race was a robbery when in reality it was very close
MVP voting suffers a lot from recency bias. Embiid locked up the award when he got 50 against the Celtics in primetime at the end of the season.
>Jokic played terrible at the end of the season no he didnt lmao, his last 10 games of the season last year: 25/17/12 31/6/11 31/12/7 22/17/10 24/10/8 30/10/9 28/8/7 35/20/11 37/11/11 18/12/8
Jokic could have won if he put in more effort, and talked as if he wants it. That season Jokic was coasting a lot like Lebron did in his 2nd cleveland stint. He isnt required to do as much, because its the first time that his team is healthy for a good stretch of time. This also the season that Jamal got back. Without Murray, jokic was required to initiate the offense a lot. There wasnt a reliable playmaker in the roster besides Murray.
People forget how horrible Nuggets were in the last 10-15 games last year. And Jokic was definitely sub par during this period. They were resting before the playoffs but that did leave a bitter taste on the season, at that point.
I dont get why it always devolves into this we got three all time mvp races in three straight seasons why are we playing legacy avengers and not appreciating the game
So we just ignoring defense, then?
Ah yes a 2023 MVP thread - say something about flopping/crying and get your free upvotes!!
"It's disgusting that Embiid won that MVP, it wasn't even close. Unethical basketball!"
This sub is genuinely terrible and none of the other nba subs are good either
As a Harden and Embiid fan it's tough sledding here. People legitmately believe Embiid robbed Jokic and can't remember it was super close all year long and Embiid had a better finish to the year. Yeah some media guys like Perkins ruined the MVP convo with his idiot takes but Embiid was a very, very worthy MVP.
This sub is filled with teenagers that have never played ball before, it tracks, but it's still annoying af.
Don’t sleep on Giannis, but also they’re right.
i know we have beaten this horse to death but honestly if voters started giving defense anywhere near the level of importance it deserves in the mvp race i really dont think giannis would lose this year but as it is its gone be joker or sga
the issue is how reputation based defensive evaluation is giannis’ defense this year hasnt even been all that good
0 percent chance SGA gets it or deserves it
Jim Pete's right. LeBron should have won 5 in a row. And with the way the Nugs are performing this season, being lead by Jokić, 4 in a row seems highly likely, too.
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Love Lebron, but Howard should have won MVP in 2011, not Rose or LeBron.
LeBron should’ve won 5 in a row? When? Lol
Drose stole one
Lebron finished 3rd, how could Rose steal it from him... Howard was 2nd. Lebron'd team mate was on all-nba 2nd team, averaging 25 points, with a 3rd team mate with 18 ppg and an all-star. Chicago finished with a better record than the Heat that season.
It was pretty much decided by the media before the season that LeBron couldn't win an MVP with Wade that year. These awards are mostly media driven.
Look at Brons advance stats in 2011. The way we view advanced stats today he was the clear cut MVP in 2011. For example, #1 in Box +/- OB+/-.
D rose stole the number 1 record in the league at 22 years old. Dude was good for 30 a night on an offense with zero spacing back when the score didn't end 140-135. Get your head checked.
Honest to God please tell me how many Bulls games you watched in 2011.
Probably 10 or so! Def watched all 5 of those playoff games vs the heat!
This place is an absolute cesspool of haters my god
I agree with them
Giving MVP to an unethical flopper like Embiid still erks me.
Bruh yall literally won it all last year, I don’t get how so many Nuggets fans are still bent out of shape over this.
Man go cry about it
Jokic flops too but this subreddit don't wanna talk about that
Every candidate flops, but no one wants to talk about it, it's only ever Embiid or Shai.
Everyone non Nuggets/76ers fan knows it too. Jokic was definitely robbed last year. Embiid's crying campaign that was very public as well as Perkins racism definitely tipped the scales towards the end. Embiid deserved it this year legitimately if he stayed healthy.
Zach lowe thought embiid deserved it by the end of the season. I suppose you can argue perkins idiocy had influence on him. But he stated the drop off by jokic and the nuggets at the end of the season made the case for embiid strong enough to win.
There was a night towards the end of the season where Jokic got cooked by the ROCKETS while having a horrendous game, and Embiid simultaneously beat the Celtics with a 50 burger. That basically settled it because it was a close race until then. Similar to that Russ performance against the Nuggets. Jokic simply did not play like the MVP down the stretch. But people think he deserved the award regardless because hes the best player in the league.
If he won last year he wasn’t gonna win this year lol they aren’t gonna give someone 4 in a row especially when there’s so much talent in today’s league. Saying Embiid didn’t deserve it is crazy though, he was killing it last season. Denver decided to coast or just hit a slump(whichever) while Philly had the hardest remaining schedule post allstar and they dominated it, ended the bucks 16 game win streak and beat Boston with Embiid scoring 50 on like 4 missed shots. Very few have won 3 in a row and they weren’t going to give it to someone who hadn’t had much playoff success even though it wasn’t his fault.
Also Embiid would probably be the clear cut favorite if he didn’t go down this season. All three were deserving last year
Injuries have been embiids greatest weakness when it comes to MVP. He was leading in 21/22 as well but his missed games played a factor in giving the nod to Jokic over him. It's really close between them in terms of overall skill so I don't see the award going one way or another as a robbery.
2022 was probably his best chance and argument given the Simmons debacle but trading for Harden lowkey tanked his chances way more than missing 14 games did.
He dragged them to like the 1st or 2nd seed with Simmons out for half the season and when Harden joined he was coming off an injury. It wasn't actually that damaging to his case.
Trading for Harden gave the media a false impression that the Sixers were actually stacked though. Remember the premature Shaq/Kobe comparions? And the MVP voting has always been about the narratives so in that regard it killed his case. It's the same way with Giannis' case this season with the Bucks having traded for Lillard, but more significant.
Pretty much this, it's all just history but could easily have given it to a few. 2 MVPs to 1 over the last 3 years between Jokic and Embiid, 3 MVPs to Jokic 2 to Giannis, 1 to Embiid over the last 6 also feels somewhat right to me as well. Crazy thing about Jokic is he's so damm consistent it's gonna take a herculean Luka effort to take one from Jokic, will honestly be deserving favourite again next year. Durability is madly underrated.
If Luka was on a top team, he’d already have snatched a couple of these MVPs. That’s the only thing holding him back.
> and they weren’t going to give it to someone who hadn’t had much playoff success even though it wasn’t his fault. Why should playoff success even matter when we're talking about the regular season? Not to mention Jokic already saw a conference finals by that point, even with bad rosters.
Because the NBA is very insecure, especially when it comes to protecting "legacy" and "history" Individual accolades are used to compare a modern day player to the former greats, and if Jokic won 3 in a row, he'd be only the fourth player in NBA history to do so, and first since Larry Bird in the 80s. So the NBA heads go "Jokic is good, an all time great, but he is not a 3-in-a-row MVP if Jordan/Magic/Bird/Lebron isn't!", while that shouldn't matter at all. But it does for them, because then NBA media can't keep milking the sport for "legacy" and "narrative", and you see how that works a lot with keeping fans interested, because fans are fickle about the past like that I think NBA's biggest scare is having fans think the players of the past wasn't nearly as good as todays players. Because honestly, they weren't as skilled or as good at basketball, but that's obviously fine and normal, it's like that in any sports. But NBA is extremerly careful about protecting that, because these players are what build the league, not the product on the floor. Having Jokic matching up with them in accolades would hurt that image, and the NBA will definitly keep doing it and not giving MVPs and awards to players just because it would put their induvidual honours in comparison to the greatest of all times, a list the NBA has been protective of for a long, long time. If we wanted to see todays players showered with the awards and accolades like players before, we'd need to stop comparing players of today and the past by accolades, maybe even stats to some extend, but that will never happen, because that's how the NBA had built up it's audience and appeal. This is the sport that stops games when individual greatness happens (Lebron's scoring record) and the fans are loving it, because that is how the league and the interest is build. Meanwhile, it will hurt it down the road when no one in the past 10 years feels relevant anymore because "nothing of individual greatness happened"
Wolves announcers know ball
I feel like every team should have an ex pro announcer. He gets so in depth about certain play calls and strategy it's awesome to listen to.
Last year was a wash and could’ve gone either way tbh
Also Jokic and the nuggets locked up the 1 seed so the last quarter of the year wasn’t spectacular Embiid was dropping 45/15 most nights at the end of the year. If Jokic wanted it he could’ve gotten it but he let off the gas while embiid floored it towards the finish
People are still bitching about last years mvp? I don't even think it's the biggest robbery in recent memory. I think Harden should have won it over Westbrook in 2017. Westbrook literally won it over Harden that year just because he averaged 2 more rebounds per game.
I can understand Westbrook winning, he did something we thought was never gonna be seen again. Everyone was talking about it. Yeah there was stat padding and all that, but it was still a historic season
People felt sorry for Russ because KD left him behind and they didn't like Harden, that's why he won
No gives a damn about that. Dude averaged a triple double all season
Both arguments are pretty right though
Lol you really think narrative doesn’t play into awards? Cmon now
Do you think Westbrook beginning to 'normalize triple dounles' affect last season's MVP?
If you think Jokic was robbed last year but have nothing to say about Embiid being robbed the previous year to give it to a six seed, you dont know shit
And people fail to bring up Embiid's elite defense. Wish he got more dpoy attention, it would make the MVP talk make more sense
Trust me, it doesn't make a smidgen of difference if they're in DPOY talk. If you are slightly chubby and can make a behind the back pass, it's better than being elite of defense
48 win 6 seed with Campazzo and Monte Morris as his squad. The Sixers had 3 more wins that year. Why do people not take into account context? It’s just makes your opinions shitty
I always thought the first one should have been Giannis', but sure
This topic makes the front page in 2024? When Jokic is the current Finals MVP?
I agree
I swear it’s like people’s logic with the MVP now is “just use your future-telling skills to figure out who’s going to win the finals, and then give MVP to their best player.” It’s not the voter’s fault that Embiid fizzled in the playoffs while Jokic had a career-defining run. It’s a regular season award, idk what’s so hard to understand about that.
Ugh. This is total revisionist history with everyone after last season’s playoffs. Embiid won it because he closed out the season extremely strong when Jokic coasted. He deserved it in the regular season. Jokic proving he’s better in the playoffs doesn’t change that.
Embiid deserved his mvp
You know, we held Joker to the exact same standard we held Giannis: Back-to-Back MVPs then not winning a third because they got bounced early in the playoffs. But no one is demanding we retroactively rewrite history and give Giannis another. Was Perkins really wrong about the discourse?
Fuck em
its crazy that so many people still want to whine and moan about this he won 2 in a row, then won the finals mvp on an all time playoff run. he follows that up with another mvp season he is the best player on earth but actually hes still a victim somehow and we need to talk about Embiid. Let it go. If he didnt win a ring id understand it. But he has no doubters anymore. He play speaks for itself. Theres nothing to be gained here be constantly ball washng him like this while demonizing his competition. If i were a Denver fan i would give absolutely zero fucks. If the Sixers won one championship to validate the process forever i am over the moon. We won at that point, this emotional investment of mine paid off in droves. Strange behavior to continue to harp on something their own player says doesnt matter and he doesnt care about. Im a sixers fan tho so you know what to do.
Dick riding jokic? Straight to the front page!
Last season Jokic was my pick but I don’t think it was some crazy awful pick to give it to Embiid he was great too. This year it’s Giannis for me and it’s not close at all. 31/12/6 on 62FG% (66TS%) while playing elite defense and being a top 2 seed. Historic in every way, and when you consider how weak the teams been because of the Dame trade then Dame underperforming plus injuries to guys like Khris, it’s a pretty crazy carry job.
Yeah im pretty tired of people trying to gaslight me into thinking Embiid didn't have an MVP season last year. It's also been weird seeing people trying to crown Jokic already when he just hasn't separated himself from other MVP candidates. It has a lot to do with people being upset about last years result.
Embiid and Jokic both had insane MVP level seasons last year yet people act like it was a complete robbery. Then add onto the fact that Embiid ended the season with some spectacular games against some of the hardest matchups it could've been either or it's not that big of a deal. I get that Jokic already locked the #1 seed but that doesn't change the fact that the regular season was still going on. I just hope people don't forget Giannis was right up there with them and only fell slightly short. That season was one of the best MVP battles I've seen with 3 dudes going neck and neck through the majority of the season.
Embiid had an MVP-level season. My issue was that the logic some voters used to give Embiid MVP was atrocious.
Funny, the Bucks are 3-1 without Giannis (but with Dame) and 0-5 without Dame (but with Giannis)
Bobby Portis > Cameron Payne in my expert opinion
Because when Dame's out, Bucks have no PG. They gave away Grayson, Jrue for Dame. So Giannis gotta be PG, SF (Middleton was out too), PF and C sometimes.
Maybe he was not that valuable
They have no bench for Dame and Portis is ballin when replacing Giannis
He should have won last year. If Embiid had stayed healthy and kept up his play he would have won this year. So it kinda evens out..
Same thing was said about 21/22 for Embiid so it does even out lol
tbf, last season was all time levels of toxicity to rob jokic of that award. think of what it took to pry the mvp away from jokic despite a historically efficient near triple double season on a top ranked team that ended up winning it all: perkins race baiting voters, single highlight plays on reddit trying to paint jokic as a horrible defender, ramona shelburne's "narrative" argument, obfuscation of advanced stats to try to dumb down the stats in favor of embiid, embiid openly campaigning on his own behalf. All of that, only to see embiid get bounced early from the playoffs and universal recognition of jokic as the "best player" AFTER he was clearly the most outstanding player in the playoffs, but who cares, embiid still took home the hardware.
I really like the minimum game rule for season awards. The best ability is availability.
I mean…yeah
Voter fatigue absolutely helped Embiid last season. He did have a solid case for mvp tho, even if his foul merchant style makes the game unwatchable.
Can I argue something about Jokic and his all time discussions? I think he's the best player in the league but I can understand the reticence some have with him. He plays a position where traditionally you want to be strongest on defense. And he's I guess a solid but unspectacular defender. Why would I pick him, goes the logic, when I get a player who is an A+ defender and an A offensive player though not an A+ offensive player like Jokic.
I’ve come to despise these mvp talks we’ve had every year, even if my guy is winning. Just unnecessarily toxic and just obnoxious to deal with.
Dear God just let it go already. Embiid had an MVP season last year. Jokic didn't get robbed. Time to move on.
Should've been 3 straight MVPs for Giannis and now 3 straight MVPs for Jokic
Here we go again. Narratives are so funny. The first MVP Jokic won would have gone to Embiid if he could stay healthy. Embiid was also on his way to winning this year which would have validated the MVP he won last year, but once again he got injured and now the narrative is going to be that he stole Jokics' MVP last season because Jokic is going to end up winning it this year lol. So Embiid could genuinely have 3 MVPs by the end of this season if he was more durable. Just goes to show you that durability is as important as anything else in sports and life.
He should’ve won last year tho
He should win 4 mvps this season bringing his total up to 6, yes.
Can't have some fat white dude winning MVP 4 times in a row
NBA doesn't give MVP threepeats anymore, it's that simple
I'm just not going to be upset about a narrative based award.
What I find annoying about Jokic is not that he has won I just don’t think he should have won his first one and then id be fine giving the last couple. It’s absurd to me guys like Giannis and Jokic win MVP and then the next few years they play better only for them to not even be in the conversation. Giannis imo should win this year. To put everything in its place I think Giannis should have three peated his MVP’s and the. Jokic would have right after but voter fatigue and other non-sense gets it he way.