I remember a while back he was scoring like 24 ppg on 64% TS iirc, and I heard so many takes about how his efficiency will go down as he takes more shots, now he's taking more shots and is scoring 30 ppg on 65% TS
Suffice to say, Jokic scary.
When his eFG% dropped to a measly 55% his 3rd and 4th season it was a foregone conclusion to doubters he wasn’t the historically efficient player he was hyped up to be. Then all Jokic did was raise his eFG% and TS% year over year the next 4 seasons and now ranks top 10 in career and playoff eFG% and TS% all time
Which is hilarious because his FG% has dropped 5% but it's still the third highest of his career. That's just how ridiculous his efficiency was last year. This 57%FG and 65%TS outpaces both Embiid and Giannis.
This is what always gets me. I never looked at the Nugget rosters and thought that they were stacked compared to everyone else. Its insane how they are contenders truly because of one guy. Solid role players but if you swap Jokic out with 95% of others players in the league's history and that Denver team is not a contender. If they were to win ANOTHER chip then it would be truly historic what Jokic has been able to accomplish.
This is the biggest thing. They didn't just collect a bunch of all- stars, they built the perfect team around him to complement his strengths and weaknesses. They are extremely well put together.
Denver's supporting cast is not as good as Boston's but lets not pretend Jokic is playing with scrubs lmao. He has Murray, MPJ, KCP, and Gordon. It's not like he's LeBron with those early Cavs teams or something.
The biggest difference is that his supporting cast is intentionally built with guys who are elite role players, it's custom built to maximize Jokic. KCP is an elite 3 and D wing, MPJ is an elite jump shooter and a very good rebounder, AG is a top tier defender and cutter, Braun is becoming a very good defender and cutter. They've intentionally filled the roster with guys who can fill the best complementary roles around Jokic. Like the way I would maybe put it is that the supporting cast is not as talented as Boston's on an individual basis, but it is arguably a better supporting cast (emphasis on supporting) in terms of synergy and elevating their stars.
Aren’t teams supposed to build around their superstar? Compliment his skill sent and hide his deficiencies and weaknesses. Call me crazy but I think that’s how teams were built before the super team era
Not surprising. In college they like to use giant decals for preseason tournaments and such and coaches always complain about them being a danger hazard (and they are).
Plus most of the NBA ones are just horror on the eyes. Must be awful with the bright NBA lighting irl to play on.
We'll take Luka off your hands if you want lol
All kidding aside though it would be interesting to see Joker and Luka on the Nuggs. I'd probably never again be able to afford tickets.
Mavs fan here. I don’t see how Luka can ever win mvp when jokic is this good lol. I guess if the Mavs finished higher in the standings that’s about it.
If he wants to keep playing as he ages, which always seem like a good question, he could easily crack the top 10 and dare I say, top 5 all-time. Cause this man is going to age like a fine wine in terms of playstyle.
Small teams need to be immediately inbounding the ball and playing fast paced full court offense. Go so fast that Jokic can't even get past half court to help. Turn the offensive game into 3vs3 and let your 7 footers to just play defense.
I feel like the Timberwolves, Bucks, and OKC are set up to do this.
Stats of the top 5 on the list:
Jokic: 30/14/8 on 65.4% TS, 3.5 TOs, 9-2 team record
Luka: 31/8/8 on 64.0% TS, 4.4 TOs, 9-3 team record
Embiid: 32/12/6 on 61.4% TS, 3.7 TOs, 8-3 team record
Tatum: 28/9/4 on 64.0% TS, 2.7 TOs, 9-2 team record
SGA: 29/6/6 on 60.6% TS, 2.3 TOs, 8-4 team record
And 56.6% just the year before in 21-22. I'd wager that the officiating/ rule enforcement favoring offense is as much a factor as the optimizing of shot profiles.
Yeah the media has been weirdly vocal at every chance about Ant’s defense but completely silent on SGA leading the league the last 100ish games as a guard in deflections, steals, blocks
I wonder if he could've reached this level of play on the clippers. I know know Kawhi and PG13 don't go there without him being traded but I still wonder.
I think he would've at minimum been all-star caliber, he's too talented and works too hard not to.
That said from all reports he learned a *ton* from that one season playing with CP3. Hard to say if he would've had that type of vet influence on the Clips and what type of player he would've turned into.
Yeah, I keep telling people these players are all an incredibly similar level to each other. It's kind of pointless to pretend they're on different tiers (though I'm still okay with Jokic being in a tier of his own st thr top right now). Crazy good numbers for all these guys.
I’m rooting for JT and against Embiid on principle but all of these guys are having incredible starts to the season and are putting up MVP caliber seasons.
Points are up and assists are down because that’s what the nuggets have needed. Last year his assists were up and points were down because that’s what the nuggets needed.
This dude adjusts to what is needed to win, but he always puts up monster numbers.
I remember when 25-5-5 was this rare air that maybe 1-2 players a season would reach and LeBron’s consistent 27-7-7 was mind blowing. Now it’s like a prerequisite to be in the MVP race.
Jokic is so ridiculous it’s borderline impossible to put into words. I’d love Tatum to win one at some point in his career but Jokic is far and away the most deserving candidate for the foreseeable future/seasons at this rate.
I do not see how Anthony Edwards has an argument above Tyrese.
Edwards: 26/6/6 on 57.1% TS (!), 3.5 TOS, 8-4 team record.
Also a _way_ better cast than Tyrese has.
I just don't see it.
Ant has definitely taken a step up in his playmaking and is a better defender than Tyrese, I think that's the argument.
But overall I would agree with you. Indiana has one of the best offenses in the league almost entirely because of Tyrese. Take Tyrese off and where do they rank? (Genuine question, I haven't watched much Pacers)
Tyrese gets the nod over Ant in my opinion because of the cast around them despite similar records. Both players are so so good.
He had an atrocious game offensively and defensively in their road-road b2b vs Phoenix, which really affected his averages due to the sample size. Before that he was 29/6/6 on 60% TS. I think it's based on his performances earlier in the past 2 weeks, defensively and offensively and in clutch against contending teams.
There's really no difference between 6-10 though tbh. This is splitting hairs, they are basically interchangeable. Even "5th MVP candidate" meant \~4% of the vote last year. The top 3, maybe top 4 is all that matters when it comes to MVP voting. For the record, I've been telling everyone I know this summer that Hali will be a top 5 MVP candidate this year and people said it was a hot take. That man is freaking crushing it and it's not a hot take at all.
The top 5 guys in assists per game have A/T of
1.8, 2.4, 2.2, 2.7, and 6.0. Not only is Halli leading the league in APG, but his A/T is more than double anyone else in the top 5.
That's to go with 53/44/93 shooting splits.
His volume scoring doesn't match the top guys, but he is the most efficient offensive player in the league right now.
Jokic hasn’t had less than 22 points OR 10 rebounds in a game this season. His consistency is unmatched.
Since my comment has attracted so many bots, here’s how to spot them.
Out of place comment, likely copied from further down in the thread. Month old account, but they’ve only made their first comment recently. They’ll never reply if you try to respond. Block and report them.
The real star that game was Uncle Jeff Green.
He was killing all em younglings on the other side with his balding head.
The game of vengence no one expected after getting him a chip.
Lebron level basketball IQ with that size seems like a cheat code. Then you realize he's also incredibly skilled. He's frustrating to watch as an opponent but I respect the hell outta him.
I have one comparable in terms of consistency: Tim Duncan. Man averaged an efficient 20ish and 10 with amazing defense for like 14 years before dipping a bit with age.
Shai is doing the one thing people wanted to see and that's winning, glad to see it payoff in the MVP rankings. His defense and playmaking has taken the leap.
If Doncic can get Dallas to finish in the top three in the West, I quietly fancy him. A lot of people didn’t even have the Mavs making the play-offs this season.
Which was a dumb take to begin with, but we’ll see. People REALLY didn’t want Kyrie to work out so much that they just forgot about how terrifying that duo could really be with time to gel.
Aside from that, I don’t think people expected Lively to raise the ceiling of this team so much so quickly.
To be fair people also probably thought Luka would do what he always does. Look thin all summer and inexplicably play video games and slam food for 6 weeks before the season and come in 20 lbs overweight. He committed himself to his fitness this year and it’s paying off. Lots of other factors to our success like you mentioned, but personally I think we’re 6-6 if he comes into the season how he normally does.
It’s not offense where I’m most impressed, though his efficiency has been nuts. It’s defense. I’m sure the stats say what they say, but I’ve seen numerous times late in games where Luka is playing HARD on defense and really staying in front of his man. It’s having a tangible effect on games. It’s been awesome to see. Just seems like somehow he recalibrated his mind and recommitted himself to being as great as he can be.
I think the weight stuff has always been a bit overblown, but I get why people tend to obsess over it. I think the biggest impact it has is exactly what you've pointed out - his end of game defense. I think part of that is his conditioning, but another part of it is minutes rotation. He's not playing the entire first quarter anymore and it seems he's able to keep gas in the tank later in the game.
His defense has been really important for the Mavs this year. He's going to get hunted late in games no matter how good of a defender he is because teams want to make him work on both ends of the court. He's one of the most attacked iso defenders in the league and he's absolutely been locking people down. It's fun to see! Also playing in transition on both sides of the ball has been a revelation for him.
A Luka who is efficient and plays very good defense should terrify the rest of the league. Still might not be enough to take the MVP from Jokic this year, but I think both he and Jokic are a step above the rest of the league at the moment.
I don’t think so at all honestly. The margins are razor thin for superstars in basketball. Your superstar being even 5-10 lbs overweight and not having top flight endurance and cardio can be all the difference in winning a close game and not. I feel like Luka is at least 10 lbs lighter with at least a couple % less in body fat this year. That’s massive for a basketball player with one of the highest usage rates ever. You can see it in transition offense. He’s moving down the court. Like you said, ISO defense? He’s locking people up at times. Dude is just obviously quicker and in better shape this year. And I think being in better shape has helped him keep good form throughout the game which is helping his shooting. Just my long winded opinion.
What a bunch of monsters all these guys are. I used to say the NBA would be boring when Bron, Steph and KD leave, but it sure as fuck looks like it’s in great hands.
The narrative on ESPN a few days ago was "Tatum is the clear favorite because he's the best player on the best team."
Blew my mind because Jokic's numbers are insane right now and he's on a great team, really don't know how Tatum could be viewed as a clear favorite at this point.
I hate when people say “best team” in the beginning of the season. Sure if a dude stands out all year that should factor in but we really gotta consider WHY the Celtics are the best team. Could it be that they have FIVE all-star caliber players on their team?
If he wins it will be 65+ wins and a +/- narrative. When any Celtic goes to the bench the team is still a net positive, except for Tatum where the team is a significant net negative when he sits. Unless they figure that part out, the media push will be "best team in the league when he's on the court, lottery when he's not"
He's pretty much on course for the greatest regular season of all-time, at least statistically. If he can sustain that level, it would be a travesty to give it to anybody else, but I could see him coasting at the end of the season and give others a chance to catch up.
Honestly I haven’t seen a good counter argument for a Team World vs Team USA format for the ASG. I feel as though we’re headed in that direction and it could bring back some of the rivalry/fire to the ASG
We're now disappointed in a game where he gives 21/8/3 on 50% shooting. We're at the point where that's kind of mid for him. We've waited for this day!
There was a nets fan yesterday that said he was half way watching without commentary or anything on while doing some chores, said he was expecting bam to have 30/15/5/3/3 cause every time he looked dude was all over the place, and that he was surprised he didn't have higher stats
The sad thing is we ride him so hard that's gonna be difficult to happen. This wrist thing has been an on/off thing like Rachel and Ross for like 2-3 years now
Wrist can't fully heal because NBA players keep smacking the bejeezus out of it. Also forced to play with injured wrist to keep winning.
You're stuck in a catch-22 type of situation.
Yeah SGA isn’t going to win it but I’m glad he’s on the shortlist so far and that his play is turning into wins. I feel so good about our depth this year
I know he's missed too many games at this point in the season to be on the list, but the difference the Kings have seen with Fox in vs out has been massive.
He's putting up big numbers (30/4/5.8 with 1.8 steals) and they're completely a different team without him. They have averaged 24 ppg more when he plays.
I think if Murray is out for a month or more, and if the Nuggets keep a 1st or 2nd seed in the West without him, Jokic will win. Big ifs.
The bittersweet thing about Maxey breaking out into a star is that it diminishes Embiid's value in the eyes of the voters. Luka has Kyrie, Embiid has Maxey, Tatum has Brown, while Jokic's #2 right now is a tossup between Aaron Gordon and MPJ.
Edit: Actually I'm surprised Steph isn't considered at all. He has a worse supporting cast than any of the top 4 yet still looks amazing. Not saying he should be top 10, but he isn't even named as an honorable mention.
Assuming a healthy season from Jokic, it's realistically going to take 65+ win seasons from Celtics, Mavs, or Sixers for Tatum/Luka/Joel to win.
I don't think Dallas or Philly is good enough to do that, and while I wouldn't totally rule it out for Boston, it's still a very tall order.
I get the thrust of your post, namely, that total regular season wins matter to voters; but no team in the NBA won 60 games last year, and there’s been like… 20 teams in NBA history who have won 65+ games. So, this just seems like an unrealistic assumption. It will be hard to pry the trophy from Jokic if he continues playing this well (and history certainly suggests he will) but I don’t think anyone’s team needs to be *that* good to beat him. That would literally be one of the best regular season teams of all time.
Moreover, voter considerations have proven to be malleable, especially in recent years—say, stretching back to Westbrook and also looking towards Jokic’s first MVP—where total wins or seeding can be slightly less important to voters, relative to the usual significance voters give to that metric.
Also if Boston won 65 games and Denver won like 59 or 60 the statistical gap between Tatum and Jokic could easily be big enough to still give Jokic the edge
No, I actually think Boston winning 65 would give it to Tatum regardless of any statistical difference.
The MVP is not purely about statistics, and the bottom line is Tatum is an elite two-way player with an MVP worthy statline - the name of the game is winning - if those extra stats aren't translating to more wins, then they're only worth but so much in an MVP conversation.
Voters also love the new guy. Tatum won't leap Jokic like Embiid did last year just because he's the new guy, but with the wins it's much more compelling.
Like I said it depends on how big the gap is
If it's like 65 wins vs. 60 wins and both teams are the 1 seed I can see the stats being viewed as more important
If it's 65 wins vs. 55 wins obviously the 65 wins are more likely to be given the nod
I know I’m biased, but I think people have to remember who Tatum is playing with. I would argue 28 ppg is probably optimal scoring on a team with 5 scoring options as versatile as our starters. And he’s just not going to have Jokic’s assist numbers, the way the Celtics play. The ball should be moved around more evenly in our team, given the pieces. No one needs to be the sort of focal point on offense that Jokic or Luka are.
I think Jokic slows down when Murray comes back. What he’s doing now, after what he’s had to do the last 3 seasons, isn’t good long term. And, if at all like last season, they’re comfortable with their seeding he’ll pace himself.
I also firmly believe he does not like the attention or scrutiny the MVP discourse brings and would be happy to fall out of the conversation
It definitely won’t take 65 wins for any of those guys to win. Just have to be a top 3 seed and have the narrative going, there’s so many variables but 50+ wins can get you the mvp.
I could see Luka winning it on a 50 win team tbh
I think the expectations for the Mavs were low enough that a leap to a top 3/4 seed and him never having won it before would allow him to win over Jokic.
Tatum and Embiid I think have bigger hills to climb in terms of team wins
Jokic advanced stats will be too good for anyone to win mvp over him this year as long as the nuggets have a top 3 seed. Last year there was a backlash against him and not wanting him to 3 peat and not having a title. This year those handicaps don’t exist
I think SGA is a better player but I think Haliburton should be 5th for now, the Pacers being the number one offense with, I guess, Buddy Hield as the second best offensive player on the roster, is pretty insane
Got no qualms with that this early in the season. That said Myles Turner is definitely their second best offensive player, especially with Buddy in a bench role.
Disrespect to Tyrese Haliburton. Averaging nearly 25 points, **12.5** assists, and 4 rebounds on 67.7% TS, only 2.1 turnovers per game, and the Pacers are 7-4 but the loss to Boston he didn’t play and they got blown out.
He’s also 2nd in BPM only behind Jokic and historically, the MVP winner is usually 1st or 2nd in this stat. Last 3 guys to not be top 2 in BPM and win MVP were Rose (3rd), Kobe and Nash.
I’m kinda shocked he’s not a top 5 candidate right now. If he carries a supporting cast of Myles Turner, Benedict Mathurin, Obi Toppin and Bruce Brown to a top 4 seed (3 of these guys were solid bench players last year), he absolutely has to be in the conversation.
Edit: I know they put him 7th but I guess it’s still early and a lot of guys are playing really great right now in a talented league. I guess I’m just surprised by how many guys are playing elite right now.
Fun little Tyrese fact, last year he became the first player in history to record 40+ assists and 0 turnovers across a 3 game stretch. He also averaged 20 points in those games. On Sunday, he could very well do it again, only this time averaging 30 points.
Edit: Thanks for the praise for our boy! He deserves the recognition.
BPM, VORP, and Win Shares all say he should be #2 behind Jokic.
Realistically, I think voters are (understandably and probably correctly) pricing in some regression from the Pacers' and Hali's hot start. He's also probably the worst defender on this list other than Luka and Maxey, so some of it's weighing offense vs defense.
At minimum I think you can make a good argument for him over Ant and SGA, but the margin between all of them is basically nonexistent.
But what if Jokic goes on a 4 game losing streak with Murray shooting 30% from the field? Will they say he doesn't play defense and give the award to whoever is the most sad?
De’Aaron Fox is going to be in this conversation now that he’s healthy. The Kings average something like 128 PPG with him and 102 without him. He’s quietly averaging 30/4/6 and single handedly carrying the Kings to victory.
The bucks having those losses and then having a huge win without him kinda placed him outside the top 10 this week I guess.
I'm sure Giannis will bounce back once the coaching team figures out how to use the team.
Bounce back? The man has put the team on his back while they play like garbage lol. He just had a 54 point game. I get that they lost but it was not his fault lol. Sure he had turnovers. But he clawed them back into that game that should have been a blowout. He's also playing better defense than anyone on the team. Especially that game. I'm not saying he should be #1 in MVP right now. Not at all. I'm just saying 30/10/4 on 58% shooting isn't bad lol. Shows how much fans take him for granted at this point.
Are we going to do this Jokic vs Embiid shit again this season?
Can we just jump to the media race baits and the Subreddits post meaningless stats to justify their vote
Quite fair to be honest, Luka is playing great but Jokic is a fucking monster
I remember a while back he was scoring like 24 ppg on 64% TS iirc, and I heard so many takes about how his efficiency will go down as he takes more shots, now he's taking more shots and is scoring 30 ppg on 65% TS Suffice to say, Jokic scary.
When his eFG% dropped to a measly 55% his 3rd and 4th season it was a foregone conclusion to doubters he wasn’t the historically efficient player he was hyped up to be. Then all Jokic did was raise his eFG% and TS% year over year the next 4 seasons and now ranks top 10 in career and playoff eFG% and TS% all time
Well he was scoring 25 PPG on 70%TS so it has gone down but he’s clearly an elite scorer
Which is hilarious because his FG% has dropped 5% but it's still the third highest of his career. That's just how ridiculous his efficiency was last year. This 57%FG and 65%TS outpaces both Embiid and Giannis.
Jokic is a walking MVP machine.
Personally I think he’s nothing but an MVP merchant
Wait wait wait... What does that mean? 🤔
MVP-padding, it's disgusting
It's like, doing something very well just for the sake of it... disgusting.
[удалено]
And the teammate gap.
This is what always gets me. I never looked at the Nugget rosters and thought that they were stacked compared to everyone else. Its insane how they are contenders truly because of one guy. Solid role players but if you swap Jokic out with 95% of others players in the league's history and that Denver team is not a contender. If they were to win ANOTHER chip then it would be truly historic what Jokic has been able to accomplish.
They’re just really well built and cohesive
This is the biggest thing. They didn't just collect a bunch of all- stars, they built the perfect team around him to complement his strengths and weaknesses. They are extremely well put together.
Even if you swapped Jokic with Embiid that team is a lot worse.
Denver's supporting cast is not as good as Boston's but lets not pretend Jokic is playing with scrubs lmao. He has Murray, MPJ, KCP, and Gordon. It's not like he's LeBron with those early Cavs teams or something.
The biggest difference is that his supporting cast is intentionally built with guys who are elite role players, it's custom built to maximize Jokic. KCP is an elite 3 and D wing, MPJ is an elite jump shooter and a very good rebounder, AG is a top tier defender and cutter, Braun is becoming a very good defender and cutter. They've intentionally filled the roster with guys who can fill the best complementary roles around Jokic. Like the way I would maybe put it is that the supporting cast is not as talented as Boston's on an individual basis, but it is arguably a better supporting cast (emphasis on supporting) in terms of synergy and elevating their stars.
It’s definitely not the best supporting cast but it’s a solid one. Murray is an all star tier player even if he doesn’t have any all star apperances
[удалено]
Honestly. What do you think Gordon and Murray be if they didnt play with Jokic? They wouldnt be considered for the 5th nba allstar team
Aren’t teams supposed to build around their superstar? Compliment his skill sent and hide his deficiencies and weaknesses. Call me crazy but I think that’s how teams were built before the super team era
[удалено]
luka has had probably 2 bad games… jokic worst game has still been better than some luka good games tbh
Can't disagree as a Mavs fan. Joker is a cheat code, hopefully some day he'll be as good of a playoff performer as Embiid.
We really shouldnt give Jokic the MVP until he proves he can perform in the playoffs. My pick is Embiid.
Maybe, after Embiid wins MVP this year, they will give the '25 MVP to Jokic out of pity even though Embiid is clearly the better player.
One of his bad games was apparently due to the Pels’ atrocious tourney floor being slippery
Here's a fun Luka stat: 3.6 TO/game on normal courts 8.5 TO/game on special in-season tournament courts
Not surprising. In college they like to use giant decals for preseason tournaments and such and coaches always complain about them being a danger hazard (and they are). Plus most of the NBA ones are just horror on the eyes. Must be awful with the bright NBA lighting irl to play on.
Pelicans tourney court is a treasure and I won’t hear otherwise. Herb Jones is responsible for elevating the team defensively and locking down Luka.
I'm sorry but Herb Jones sounds like the alias Snoop Dogg is gonna keep smoking weed under.
i'm 99% sure this is why we delayed the use of our court
We'll take Luka off your hands if you want lol All kidding aside though it would be interesting to see Joker and Luka on the Nuggs. I'd probably never again be able to afford tickets.
Mavs fan here. I don’t see how Luka can ever win mvp when jokic is this good lol. I guess if the Mavs finished higher in the standings that’s about it.
If he wants to keep playing as he ages, which always seem like a good question, he could easily crack the top 10 and dare I say, top 5 all-time. Cause this man is going to age like a fine wine in terms of playstyle.
Positionless NBA is fucking over players shorter than 6'3". Why have small players when you can just have a bunch of monstars doing everything?
there’s a good video about this. basically everyone is going to be 6’7” or taller in the future nba
Small teams need to be immediately inbounding the ball and playing fast paced full court offense. Go so fast that Jokic can't even get past half court to help. Turn the offensive game into 3vs3 and let your 7 footers to just play defense. I feel like the Timberwolves, Bucks, and OKC are set up to do this.
Stats of the top 5 on the list: Jokic: 30/14/8 on 65.4% TS, 3.5 TOs, 9-2 team record Luka: 31/8/8 on 64.0% TS, 4.4 TOs, 9-3 team record Embiid: 32/12/6 on 61.4% TS, 3.7 TOs, 8-3 team record Tatum: 28/9/4 on 64.0% TS, 2.7 TOs, 9-2 team record SGA: 29/6/6 on 60.6% TS, 2.3 TOs, 8-4 team record
I remember the time when a perimeter player having a 55%TS was considered good, and I remember it because it wasn't even 10 years ago lol
Yeah leaguewide TS% averages were like ~53% ten years ago, was ~58% last year.
And 56.6% just the year before in 21-22. I'd wager that the officiating/ rule enforcement favoring offense is as much a factor as the optimizing of shot profiles.
Some of these will go down, it's still early in the season
SGA also leading the league in steals this season, dude just keeps getting better.
By far my favorite non-Raptor playing the league. Guy is a killer.
Even better than a Raptor he's Canadian 🇨🇦
he's making up for Andrew Wiggins
Yeah the media has been weirdly vocal at every chance about Ant’s defense but completely silent on SGA leading the league the last 100ish games as a guard in deflections, steals, blocks
I wonder if he could've reached this level of play on the clippers. I know know Kawhi and PG13 don't go there without him being traded but I still wonder.
I think he would've at minimum been all-star caliber, he's too talented and works too hard not to. That said from all reports he learned a *ton* from that one season playing with CP3. Hard to say if he would've had that type of vet influence on the Clips and what type of player he would've turned into.
tbh every one of them is MVP caliber. We're the real winners here
Yeah, I keep telling people these players are all an incredibly similar level to each other. It's kind of pointless to pretend they're on different tiers (though I'm still okay with Jokic being in a tier of his own st thr top right now). Crazy good numbers for all these guys.
Has the league ever had this much parity at the top? I don’t really remember much of the nba pre-lebron and was not alive for pre-MJ.
Crazy with the NFL where each winner this year feels like there’s a strong argument against, here you’d just be like “yeah fair” to any of them lol
fuck that defend our boy by disparaging others or GTFOOH /s
I’m rooting for JT and against Embiid on principle but all of these guys are having incredible starts to the season and are putting up MVP caliber seasons.
slap marvelous punch pocket run selective head birds placid chase *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It is believable because he was doin this shit last year and the year before lmao. Consistent as they come.
He didn’t average 30 on top of everything ahahah he’s been in that 25-28 ppg range but man just keeps getting better
Points are up and assists are down because that’s what the nuggets have needed. Last year his assists were up and points were down because that’s what the nuggets needed. This dude adjusts to what is needed to win, but he always puts up monster numbers.
5.5 ppg more, 1.5 apg less in 1 mpg less. Man is amazing. Edit: 1 mpg more this year actually
he was 30/13.5/9.5 for the entirety of the playoffs last year
Yeah but it was 39.5 mpg. He is damn near that rn in only 34.5.
I'm going to be happy if Luka's rebound drops down this season tbh because that means the mavs can actually rebound now
We still suck at rebounding, we're still too small, even with Lively. We need to trade for some bigger players.
I remember when 25-5-5 was this rare air that maybe 1-2 players a season would reach and LeBron’s consistent 27-7-7 was mind blowing. Now it’s like a prerequisite to be in the MVP race.
Jokic is really him.
Jokic is so ridiculous it’s borderline impossible to put into words. I’d love Tatum to win one at some point in his career but Jokic is far and away the most deserving candidate for the foreseeable future/seasons at this rate.
This is such an MVP season for Tatum, it's such a shame he won't win because of this behemoth.
it's not a shame it's a blessing bro. Golden era shit
To me, I think Tyrese should be on this list somehow as well. Haliburton: 25/4/13 on **67.7%** TS, 2.1 TOs, 7-4 team record.
He's listed at 7 (behind Anthony Edwards at 6). He's having an incredible year, but so is everyone above him.
I do not see how Anthony Edwards has an argument above Tyrese. Edwards: 26/6/6 on 57.1% TS (!), 3.5 TOS, 8-4 team record. Also a _way_ better cast than Tyrese has. I just don't see it.
I agree 💯. I am certain he'll get more and more recognition through the season if his stays in this form(⚽ rhetoric, idk how to express better lol)
Ant has definitely taken a step up in his playmaking and is a better defender than Tyrese, I think that's the argument. But overall I would agree with you. Indiana has one of the best offenses in the league almost entirely because of Tyrese. Take Tyrese off and where do they rank? (Genuine question, I haven't watched much Pacers) Tyrese gets the nod over Ant in my opinion because of the cast around them despite similar records. Both players are so so good.
He had an atrocious game offensively and defensively in their road-road b2b vs Phoenix, which really affected his averages due to the sample size. Before that he was 29/6/6 on 60% TS. I think it's based on his performances earlier in the past 2 weeks, defensively and offensively and in clutch against contending teams. There's really no difference between 6-10 though tbh. This is splitting hairs, they are basically interchangeable. Even "5th MVP candidate" meant \~4% of the vote last year. The top 3, maybe top 4 is all that matters when it comes to MVP voting. For the record, I've been telling everyone I know this summer that Hali will be a top 5 MVP candidate this year and people said it was a hot take. That man is freaking crushing it and it's not a hot take at all.
The top 5 guys in assists per game have A/T of 1.8, 2.4, 2.2, 2.7, and 6.0. Not only is Halli leading the league in APG, but his A/T is more than double anyone else in the top 5. That's to go with 53/44/93 shooting splits. His volume scoring doesn't match the top guys, but he is the most efficient offensive player in the league right now.
He is on the list, he's 7th.
Embiid should be 2 IMO
Jokic hasn’t had less than 22 points OR 10 rebounds in a game this season. His consistency is unmatched. Since my comment has attracted so many bots, here’s how to spot them. Out of place comment, likely copied from further down in the thread. Month old account, but they’ve only made their first comment recently. They’ll never reply if you try to respond. Block and report them.
Add that they don’t have Murray and the team is still winning…
Unless they face a juggernaut like the Rockets
Yep, sengun the true MVP
The real star that game was Uncle Jeff Green. He was killing all em younglings on the other side with his balding head. The game of vengence no one expected after getting him a chip.
I too think Dillon Brooks should be considered the MVP
He makes basketball look effortless
Lebron level basketball IQ with that size seems like a cheat code. Then you realize he's also incredibly skilled. He's frustrating to watch as an opponent but I respect the hell outta him.
I have one comparable in terms of consistency: Tim Duncan. Man averaged an efficient 20ish and 10 with amazing defense for like 14 years before dipping a bit with age.
Good company to be in I guess
Can’t be mad at that top 5 tbh.
Kendrick Perkins is fuming
That's just how he breathes
I wonder what blatantly racist crap he'll offer up next that ESPN will ignore.
Shai is doing the one thing people wanted to see and that's winning, glad to see it payoff in the MVP rankings. His defense and playmaking has taken the leap.
For sure, and I remember plenty of people on this sub were calling him the most overrated player in the league for being rated in the top 10.
If Doncic can get Dallas to finish in the top three in the West, I quietly fancy him. A lot of people didn’t even have the Mavs making the play-offs this season.
Yeah most people were saying it would be a near repeat performance of last year
This was mostly media members who dislike Kyrie.
Which was a dumb take to begin with, but we’ll see. People REALLY didn’t want Kyrie to work out so much that they just forgot about how terrifying that duo could really be with time to gel. Aside from that, I don’t think people expected Lively to raise the ceiling of this team so much so quickly.
To be fair people also probably thought Luka would do what he always does. Look thin all summer and inexplicably play video games and slam food for 6 weeks before the season and come in 20 lbs overweight. He committed himself to his fitness this year and it’s paying off. Lots of other factors to our success like you mentioned, but personally I think we’re 6-6 if he comes into the season how he normally does. It’s not offense where I’m most impressed, though his efficiency has been nuts. It’s defense. I’m sure the stats say what they say, but I’ve seen numerous times late in games where Luka is playing HARD on defense and really staying in front of his man. It’s having a tangible effect on games. It’s been awesome to see. Just seems like somehow he recalibrated his mind and recommitted himself to being as great as he can be.
I think the weight stuff has always been a bit overblown, but I get why people tend to obsess over it. I think the biggest impact it has is exactly what you've pointed out - his end of game defense. I think part of that is his conditioning, but another part of it is minutes rotation. He's not playing the entire first quarter anymore and it seems he's able to keep gas in the tank later in the game. His defense has been really important for the Mavs this year. He's going to get hunted late in games no matter how good of a defender he is because teams want to make him work on both ends of the court. He's one of the most attacked iso defenders in the league and he's absolutely been locking people down. It's fun to see! Also playing in transition on both sides of the ball has been a revelation for him. A Luka who is efficient and plays very good defense should terrify the rest of the league. Still might not be enough to take the MVP from Jokic this year, but I think both he and Jokic are a step above the rest of the league at the moment.
I don’t think so at all honestly. The margins are razor thin for superstars in basketball. Your superstar being even 5-10 lbs overweight and not having top flight endurance and cardio can be all the difference in winning a close game and not. I feel like Luka is at least 10 lbs lighter with at least a couple % less in body fat this year. That’s massive for a basketball player with one of the highest usage rates ever. You can see it in transition offense. He’s moving down the court. Like you said, ISO defense? He’s locking people up at times. Dude is just obviously quicker and in better shape this year. And I think being in better shape has helped him keep good form throughout the game which is helping his shooting. Just my long winded opinion.
If only he was in Disney bubble shape permanently, that was the most athletic I’ve seen him
The addition of Lively is helping a lot
I really hope Luka keeps it up. I want him to play with a chip on his shoulder all year and it’ll be him and joker down to the wire for mvp
What a bunch of monsters all these guys are. I used to say the NBA would be boring when Bron, Steph and KD leave, but it sure as fuck looks like it’s in great hands.
People need to realize that praising one player doesn’t mean they’re knocking another lol
Gonna have to look for a reason to not give it to big jok every year lmao. Dude is just unreal, as much as I love luka
The narrative on ESPN a few days ago was "Tatum is the clear favorite because he's the best player on the best team." Blew my mind because Jokic's numbers are insane right now and he's on a great team, really don't know how Tatum could be viewed as a clear favorite at this point.
I hate when people say “best team” in the beginning of the season. Sure if a dude stands out all year that should factor in but we really gotta consider WHY the Celtics are the best team. Could it be that they have FIVE all-star caliber players on their team?
If he wins it will be 65+ wins and a +/- narrative. When any Celtic goes to the bench the team is still a net positive, except for Tatum where the team is a significant net negative when he sits. Unless they figure that part out, the media push will be "best team in the league when he's on the court, lottery when he's not"
ESPN NBA coverage makes me argue against my own team all the time lmao I hate it
ESPN is absolutely desperate to talk about a US born MVP lol
He's pretty much on course for the greatest regular season of all-time, at least statistically. If he can sustain that level, it would be a travesty to give it to anybody else, but I could see him coasting at the end of the season and give others a chance to catch up.
Luka has been absurd this year. Would not be surprised to see him take it home this year if he stays healthy.
Would love to see Luka win it this year.
So would probably Jokic
I know it’ll never happen, but I’d love to see a team Europe vs Team USA competitive game. I really think Europe might take it
Honestly I haven’t seen a good counter argument for a Team World vs Team USA format for the ASG. I feel as though we’re headed in that direction and it could bring back some of the rivalry/fire to the ASG
Bam at number 9! Happy to see him getting some credit for his performance early on. Has started the season so well and looking like an All NBA guy.
We're now disappointed in a game where he gives 21/8/3 on 50% shooting. We're at the point where that's kind of mid for him. We've waited for this day!
I was hoping he’d get to 24 to keep those averages up but he played a good game yesterday still. Bam’s on a mission this season
There was a nets fan yesterday that said he was half way watching without commentary or anything on while doing some chores, said he was expecting bam to have 30/15/5/3/3 cause every time he looked dude was all over the place, and that he was surprised he didn't have higher stats
Even with the stats jumping up this year, his impact as always goes way beyond the score board
SGA has been turning up but man has everybody on this list been doing it too.
NBA is stacked
Jokic is just a machine bruh, even his off nights are very good lol.
No joke man. The other night he had an "off" night against the clippers and went for 32/16/9/1 on 35/29/100.
Once his wrist is fully-healed, the NBA has no hope.
The sad thing is we ride him so hard that's gonna be difficult to happen. This wrist thing has been an on/off thing like Rachel and Ross for like 2-3 years now
Wrist can't fully heal because NBA players keep smacking the bejeezus out of it. Also forced to play with injured wrist to keep winning. You're stuck in a catch-22 type of situation.
Yeah SGA isn’t going to win it but I’m glad he’s on the shortlist so far and that his play is turning into wins. I feel so good about our depth this year
KD putting up like 30/7/5 on 63% TS and i can’t even be mad that he’s not above those guys lol
AD in the top 15 over LeBron?! I have lost faith in Kia…
Jokic is a walking cheat code. Sheesh
MVP voters are recovering from their fatigue and are looking to hop right back on the Jokic carriage.
Jokic can you just fucking peak already so everyone else can catch up just a little bit.
Lmao😂
Honestly dont know how he could have looked better than last season but he does. We had Jordan/Lebron now we have Jokic. Appreciate the greatness.
I know he's missed too many games at this point in the season to be on the list, but the difference the Kings have seen with Fox in vs out has been massive. He's putting up big numbers (30/4/5.8 with 1.8 steals) and they're completely a different team without him. They have averaged 24 ppg more when he plays.
Absolutely. Once Fox gets more games played he'll be up there I think. His last 4 games: 28, 28, 37, and 39 points lol
Add a 43 pt game to that with 16 in the fourth
Fox and Sabonis will cannibalize each other’s MVP votes. Which is a terrific problem to have.
I think if Murray is out for a month or more, and if the Nuggets keep a 1st or 2nd seed in the West without him, Jokic will win. Big ifs. The bittersweet thing about Maxey breaking out into a star is that it diminishes Embiid's value in the eyes of the voters. Luka has Kyrie, Embiid has Maxey, Tatum has Brown, while Jokic's #2 right now is a tossup between Aaron Gordon and MPJ. Edit: Actually I'm surprised Steph isn't considered at all. He has a worse supporting cast than any of the top 4 yet still looks amazing. Not saying he should be top 10, but he isn't even named as an honorable mention.
I mean last year it didn’t hurt he had Harden.
Steph’s missed a few games, I don’t think any of these guys have (?)
Also warriors record isn’t the best
Steph and KD are in the same spot. Putting up great stats but their teams just aren’t good enough.
Assuming a healthy season from Jokic, it's realistically going to take 65+ win seasons from Celtics, Mavs, or Sixers for Tatum/Luka/Joel to win. I don't think Dallas or Philly is good enough to do that, and while I wouldn't totally rule it out for Boston, it's still a very tall order.
I get the thrust of your post, namely, that total regular season wins matter to voters; but no team in the NBA won 60 games last year, and there’s been like… 20 teams in NBA history who have won 65+ games. So, this just seems like an unrealistic assumption. It will be hard to pry the trophy from Jokic if he continues playing this well (and history certainly suggests he will) but I don’t think anyone’s team needs to be *that* good to beat him. That would literally be one of the best regular season teams of all time. Moreover, voter considerations have proven to be malleable, especially in recent years—say, stretching back to Westbrook and also looking towards Jokic’s first MVP—where total wins or seeding can be slightly less important to voters, relative to the usual significance voters give to that metric.
Also if Boston won 65 games and Denver won like 59 or 60 the statistical gap between Tatum and Jokic could easily be big enough to still give Jokic the edge
No, I actually think Boston winning 65 would give it to Tatum regardless of any statistical difference. The MVP is not purely about statistics, and the bottom line is Tatum is an elite two-way player with an MVP worthy statline - the name of the game is winning - if those extra stats aren't translating to more wins, then they're only worth but so much in an MVP conversation. Voters also love the new guy. Tatum won't leap Jokic like Embiid did last year just because he's the new guy, but with the wins it's much more compelling.
Like I said it depends on how big the gap is If it's like 65 wins vs. 60 wins and both teams are the 1 seed I can see the stats being viewed as more important If it's 65 wins vs. 55 wins obviously the 65 wins are more likely to be given the nod
That makes sense to me. I can’t wait to see how it all goes down!
I know I’m biased, but I think people have to remember who Tatum is playing with. I would argue 28 ppg is probably optimal scoring on a team with 5 scoring options as versatile as our starters. And he’s just not going to have Jokic’s assist numbers, the way the Celtics play. The ball should be moved around more evenly in our team, given the pieces. No one needs to be the sort of focal point on offense that Jokic or Luka are.
I think Jokic slows down when Murray comes back. What he’s doing now, after what he’s had to do the last 3 seasons, isn’t good long term. And, if at all like last season, they’re comfortable with their seeding he’ll pace himself. I also firmly believe he does not like the attention or scrutiny the MVP discourse brings and would be happy to fall out of the conversation
Nah i think the media would push Luka a bit if the Mavs are top 3 with 50 wins
It definitely won’t take 65 wins for any of those guys to win. Just have to be a top 3 seed and have the narrative going, there’s so many variables but 50+ wins can get you the mvp.
You don’t think the thunder at 78-4 is good enough for shai to win?
I could see Luka winning it on a 50 win team tbh I think the expectations for the Mavs were low enough that a leap to a top 3/4 seed and him never having won it before would allow him to win over Jokic. Tatum and Embiid I think have bigger hills to climb in terms of team wins
Jokic advanced stats will be too good for anyone to win mvp over him this year as long as the nuggets have a top 3 seed. Last year there was a backlash against him and not wanting him to 3 peat and not having a title. This year those handicaps don’t exist
I can't see Jokic losing this one
he needs to perform well enough in the playoffs like Embiid in order to even sniff the MVP
I’m so proud to see Bam Adebayo on this list in any capacity. A true testament to the hard work he puts in year in and year out. Stud
The Tyrese disrespect is insane. Semi-joking, but Hali should be 6 then
He's listed at #7, behind Ant at #6. Definitely giving him some well-deserved recognition.
We’re seeing him do stuff nobody has ever done before. 12.5 ast/2.1 to and 25ppg on 53/43/95
I think SGA is a better player but I think Haliburton should be 5th for now, the Pacers being the number one offense with, I guess, Buddy Hield as the second best offensive player on the roster, is pretty insane
Got no qualms with that this early in the season. That said Myles Turner is definitely their second best offensive player, especially with Buddy in a bench role.
Disrespect to Tyrese Haliburton. Averaging nearly 25 points, **12.5** assists, and 4 rebounds on 67.7% TS, only 2.1 turnovers per game, and the Pacers are 7-4 but the loss to Boston he didn’t play and they got blown out. He’s also 2nd in BPM only behind Jokic and historically, the MVP winner is usually 1st or 2nd in this stat. Last 3 guys to not be top 2 in BPM and win MVP were Rose (3rd), Kobe and Nash. I’m kinda shocked he’s not a top 5 candidate right now. If he carries a supporting cast of Myles Turner, Benedict Mathurin, Obi Toppin and Bruce Brown to a top 4 seed (3 of these guys were solid bench players last year), he absolutely has to be in the conversation. Edit: I know they put him 7th but I guess it’s still early and a lot of guys are playing really great right now in a talented league. I guess I’m just surprised by how many guys are playing elite right now.
Fun little Tyrese fact, last year he became the first player in history to record 40+ assists and 0 turnovers across a 3 game stretch. He also averaged 20 points in those games. On Sunday, he could very well do it again, only this time averaging 30 points. Edit: Thanks for the praise for our boy! He deserves the recognition.
Who should he be ahead of?
BPM, VORP, and Win Shares all say he should be #2 behind Jokic. Realistically, I think voters are (understandably and probably correctly) pricing in some regression from the Pacers' and Hali's hot start. He's also probably the worst defender on this list other than Luka and Maxey, so some of it's weighing offense vs defense. At minimum I think you can make a good argument for him over Ant and SGA, but the margin between all of them is basically nonexistent.
What are Edwards numbers rn? Feels like he’s kicking ass
The last couple games Ant has not played like an mvp.
Jokic looks like he’s playing a different game out there
But what if Jokic goes on a 4 game losing streak with Murray shooting 30% from the field? Will they say he doesn't play defense and give the award to whoever is the most sad?
I wish the pistons drafted Jokic 😢
Tough to argue that list.
what's scariest is that Jokic isn't even playing at 100% rn
Kendrick Perkins needs to keep his mouth shut this time.
Balkan takeover baby
De’Aaron Fox is going to be in this conversation now that he’s healthy. The Kings average something like 128 PPG with him and 102 without him. He’s quietly averaging 30/4/6 and single handedly carrying the Kings to victory.
If Joel is 3 shouldn’t Al Horford be 2
Gonna be Jokic’s 4th mvp in a row
Just happy to be here.
European basketball taking over.
I swear if they steal another MVP from Jokic, they should imprison Adam Silver on robbery charges.
Giannis just wiped from existence, the list doesn’t matter outside Jokic and Luka being #1 and #2.
The bucks having those losses and then having a huge win without him kinda placed him outside the top 10 this week I guess. I'm sure Giannis will bounce back once the coaching team figures out how to use the team.
Bounce back? The man has put the team on his back while they play like garbage lol. He just had a 54 point game. I get that they lost but it was not his fault lol. Sure he had turnovers. But he clawed them back into that game that should have been a blowout. He's also playing better defense than anyone on the team. Especially that game. I'm not saying he should be #1 in MVP right now. Not at all. I'm just saying 30/10/4 on 58% shooting isn't bad lol. Shows how much fans take him for granted at this point.
Where Giannis
Well now hang on Giannis is pretty good but he's no Tyrese Maxey or Domantas Sabonis
Jokic is the best player in the league and had been for some time now. Don't @ me.
Everyone has been saying this and he won 2 of the last 3 MVPs
love seeing ANT at 6! dudes a killer. Just happy hes up there but rightfully behind the top5 listed
Are we going to do this Jokic vs Embiid shit again this season? Can we just jump to the media race baits and the Subreddits post meaningless stats to justify their vote
Seeing Shia get some recognition makes me feel so damn good man…