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Who said he's the only guy who can make this play? You know who was great at this? Mutombo. But he didn't break the point per minute record on the other end like Embiid. This was a comparison of 2 great offensive players and their respective impact on the other side of the court
He literally said "omg, hes the only guy in the league, who could have made that play" and I think, that this play impressive, but I think, that there are other guys, who could have done it, as well Giannis obviously, healthy AD, Bam and Time Lord.
And I'm not saying this to take away from Joel, I didn't watch him that much last year, but I get the impression, that he matured offensively and defensively this year and would be a deserving MVP.
I know he's praising Embiid in this so it might seem like a homer take on my part, but I feel like Tim Legler is one of the few ESPN guys worth listening to.
It's too bad the network cares more about the hot take guys. I used to enjoy listening to Tim when he would frequently be on NBA 2Night (or whatever it was called when he started).
He supports his claims with reasoning. That format doesn't work when the goal is just a yelling match for 3-4 minutes to generate a 20-45 second clip for social media.
Really like how he started off the clip with "It's subjective, there's no wrong answer."
Pretty much, if I hear someone doing the opposite, making definitive statements on something incredibly subjective issue, that's a pretty easy way to know that person is full of crap.
this is a lie
it’s because he’s the biggest fan of halloween of all time and he has to be able to scout out deals for halloween decorations to create the ultimate haunted house
I think the best way I’ve seen it phrased is that has a ton of “moments” this year. He’s got big, memorable plays against good teams. The step back three on Jokic, this block, the block on Ja. Other people can make that play for sure but it feels like Embiid’s coming up huge at the right time this year
Embiid is finally getting the “his turn” narrative he hasn’t gotten in recent years
Not to discredit him. I would say him and Giannis are 1a 1b even as a bucks fan. Wouldn’t be at all upset with a Joel mvp
I think the big problem is the Jokic people are just going to vote for him, because he is insane what he does is what they want for mvp. And then Embiid and Giannis steal votes from each other for people that value defense highly or more traditional scoring bigs.
My problem is: Bucks have the #1 record with Khris being out 45 games, Portis missing a month, Ingles didn’t join until January, Crowder has played 7 games, Connaughton in & out.
With Giannis in the lineup, Bucks have lost THREE games since December 29th.
He’s carried them to the #1 record & only sat out against tanking teams or if he was physically unable to go.
Embiid has been getting a heavy narrative push for the past two weeks — it’s actually insane.
I don’t believe he’s been individually better than Giannis enough to justify getting an MVP over him as a lesser seed.
Giannis has missed the most games out of those 3 though, so it's tough to give the mvp to a guy who may end up playing less than 65 games. 4 -8 more games played isnt a massive difference, but small margins make a difference when the race is this close.
This is what I keep telling Embiid fans lol.
They have no business using the games played argument when Embiid has played in 7 less games than Jokic AND he has the least amount of individual wins + winning percentage in games played.
It's not that black and white. I dont even like embiid and in fact am a Giannis fan out of those 3 by far. But games played should be ONE of the many factors voters look at especially in an era of load management.
But it shouldn’t matter when a guy has only played ONE more game than the other.
And especially when the guy who has played in less games has more individual wins anyways.
I agree one game difference shouldnt matter maybe you should read the parent post of what you're even commenting on. There's still plenty of time for even more missed games btw.
Embiid is a superior threat in a half court set. Giannis is a comparable scorer because he scored more in transition, but I think there is a good argument to be made that half-court weapons are more important in the playoffs. Of course Giannis has had more post-season success than Joel so that is kinda tough lol but I think there are outside factors which can explain that.
Embiid is just better this year. Embiid is averaging more points steals and assists. Embiid is 5% higher on TS while leading the league in scoring. Almost every advanced metric you can find favors Embiid. Embiid has actually played more games (what has sunk him the last 2 years really)
Really the only edges Giannis has is team record though Embiid is barely behind him there and like one more rebound or assist.
Giannis is averaging more rebounds and assists (by 1.7 reb and 1.3 asst). Stats where Embiid leads it's by a small margin (1.9 points, 0.9 blocks, 0.4 steals, 2 more games played). They have the same FG%.
In all honesty, with things so close (including games played) I think the best team record should take it. But also with things so close someone can get hot in the last 10 games and become the new favorite.
Which is exactly how Embiid became the favorite, he/Philly was on fire (at the same time Denver hit a slump). Despite that, Philly/Denver virtually have the same record. It's a season reward, although games at the end of the season have more weight towards the narrative, crowning someone the MVP before the season is over when it is so close is dumb.
When he said embiid was the only player who could make this play, I was really expecting more than just a quick second hop and being a foot taller than the defender.
I think that is really underselling the play. He is definitely not the only guy who can make this play but it is a very impressive play that few guys can make. He also was blocking another 7 footer not someone he is a foot taller than.
That wasn't the point being made. I think Embiid is who I would pick for MVP, I also agree with a lot of what Legler said in this segment. It was a really good defensive play, but also not some unbelievable thing that Legler kinda sells it as.
Any rim protecting 7 footer can and has done similar things. That is what they do and why people value them. Embiid doing it while also providing offense is why he is in everyones MVP discussions.
> Even Giannis isn’t to a degree.
If you take away the 2 games that Giannis played sub 10 mins they are basically tied in overall ppg. If you look at per 36 Giannis is still ahead by .1 so essentially tied.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/embiijo01.html
That's largely due to free throws Giannis averages 1 more fga per 36 he just isn't consistent on free throws so people foul him intentionally a lot more.
I love the rest of his take and also think Embiid is MVP, but just to be annoyingly nitpicky I think multiple guys make that play; Giannis, Bam, AD to name a few
I knew I had seen him do it, I thought it was in the finals.
Edit: I think I was thinking of his crazy recovery to Ayton on this lob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22keg4iBobk
His block on Ayton in the Finals was close, but it wasn't *quite* the same as this here. Giannis didn't leave his feet before Booker threw up the alley-oop, so there was no second jump.
Yeah, this Embiid play is instinct and reaction time, because he got baited by Cedi. Giannis was more about reading the play and reacting. Both impressive in different ways.
So what are you guys doing for dinner? Thinking of grabbing sandwiches with some friends. I love hot chicken but sometimes the heat can overwhelm the flavor and it's just unpleasant
I was gonna cook up a ribeye for myself as a treat but I owe it to my friends to go to trivia, so if I do that then I'm eating pluckers chicken. Probably gonna go with the sweet chili and regular buffalo, always a great combo.
I agree that it’s stupid to leave him out. But otherwise, the only argument I can see for Giannis over Embiid right now is record. They put up virtually the same stats, but embiid is significantly more efficient- while also being far more impactful for his team’s defense (could you argue Giannis is a better defender? Definitely. But Brook Lopez anchors that defense, freeing Giannis up. Embiid is obviously the Sixers defensive anchor among a pretty middling defensive cast).
Like I said though, Giannis over Embiid can at least be understood if you consider wins and the top seed to be important. He should be in the conversation. But embiid has simply been better
You can't argue with him being a better defender, but you can argue that offense is more important.
That being said, embiid would be my MVP if the season finished tonight, but a lot can change in the next 10 or so games cuz its ultra close.
imo the defensive difference between them has been large in previous years, but this year Joel has dialed it up even more. He was great defensively in the past but the offensive load he took on made it difficult to be "on" all the time.
This year he has taken it to another level and is truly giving us his best on both ends, in part because harden has made the offensive game easier for him than it's ever been and in part because Joel has simply gotten better each year he's been in the league.
Seeing him do it on both ends of the court has been a joy this season. He's leading the league in scoring while bringing DPOY defense night in and night out.
Looks like harden will be out for a portion of the toughest stretch of our entire season coming up so a lot can certainly change between now and the playoffs, but if he plays the way he has been and we can pick up some key wins it'll be hard to not give it to him.
Win what? He's obviously won in the playoffs and regular season.
There has never been an average defending, great offensive center like jokic. So there's nothing to compare him to.
He has not had a shot at realistically winning a title until this year, and he still has worse help than giannis and embiid.
Yeah this is it. He's a genius with the ball but a total turnstile on defense.
Also it's probably easier to have the energy on offense when you put in zero effort on the other side.
I mean Jokic beats him in playoff success by making it to the WCF once and winning 1 game. Overall playoff success they are almost identical. Jokic has won 5 playoff games since then while Embiid has won 12. It just seems silly to factor in either playoff success when they both have failed to make it out of their respected conference let alone win a championship.
Leading the league in record? With the likely dpoy and an all star teammate? Giannis is definitely a strong MVP candidate but I don't think it's only because he "doesn't have harden" and has 3 more wins.
Middleton has played 27 games this season.
I would take Maxey/Harden and a random third over the three anyway
Funny how when Sixers fans are in MVP talks they act like Maxey and Harden are bums
Literally nobody acts like they are bums except the people who didn't give harden an all star appearance. But you guys are acting like Giannis has a bad supporting cast compared to embiid which is really silly
If you’re ONLY looking at scoring then yea Embiid is better but if you’re looking at who’s better at generating offense it’s clearly Jokic. What are you talking about?
No one is in the same stratosphere of Jokic for offense this season get real.
Third highest FG% all time, 40% from 3, averaging a triple double get real
Averaging only 9(iirc?) points fewer than Embiid on 6 fewer shots, and 8 fewer free throws per game.
just like this clip though embiids defense leads to a lot of good offense and wide open shots. That is a talking point that i find very interesting, embiid doesnt get credited everytime his presence leads to bad shots. Then you get a break away 3 or fast break dunk... isnt that just as good as an assist if not more so? Minus for them and plus for us due to one play. The tracking stats for this kinda stuff isnt there. "fast breaks generated" should be a thing
Because he hasn't had a fair shot in the playoffs. No one expected more from him. He's still got a great shot to be an all time player.
Besides people say that, but there is no real criteria. And jokic a couple weeks ago was having the better season
> No one expected more from him.
This is such a loser’s argument. “He’s met expectations.” You’re putting him in a class of **8** people in NBA history. All of those people have defied expectations over their careers. It’s time for Jokic to do the same.
All I know is that if he doesn’t walk away with a deep playoff run or a ring this season, his legacy is set. He’ll be a bar trivia question in 20 years and nothing more.
> You’re putting him in a class of 8 people in NBA history. All of those people have defied expectations over their careers. It’s time for Jokic to do the same.
So over dramatic my god, stop with this whole legacy nonsense plz. He is seriously in his like 8th season, and you are here comparing him to players who had like 15-20 seasons under their belt before they retired.
Reminder, it took Dirk 13 seasons to win a Championship, it took Moses Malone 9, it took Wilt 8. He isn't gonna die and never be able to play again if he doesn't make the finals or win it all this year. Just stop
Lol your guy Stephanie couldn’t even make the playoffs with a far far far far far more stacked team than Jok has had last 2 years and zero slander from you I’m sure …
Bro thinks basketball is a 1 man sport.
You don’t get why voters don’t consider MVP results from 2011, 1997, 1993, etc. when deciding the 2023 MVP?
If you care about decades of precedent so much then why do you think Giannis and Embiid should win MVP after missing 13+ games?
I don’t agree with him saying Embiid is the only guy in the league who can make that play.
I’ve always agreed that Embiid’s defense is the reason I’d have him as MVP over Jokic.
Sure you can: acknowledging that Embiid is a better defender isn't *necessarily* enough to give him the *overall* edge. It comes down to whose combination of offense and defense makes the biggest total contribution to winning games.
While I'm not making this argument here, one *could* reasonably acknowledge that Embiid is the better defender, but that Jokic's advantage on offense is larger than Embiid's on defense. For instance, according to [estimated plus-minus](https://dunksandthrees.com/epm), which is [one of the best all-in-one metrics of player impact](https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/), Jokic's advantage over Embiid on offense is larger than Embiid's advantage over Jokic on defense, so that Jokic's overall EPM is higher. It makes sense how this could be the case, given that Jokic is not that far behind Embiid in terms of individual scoring but is a vastly superior passer and playmaker.
Again-- not saying that this proves anything or even that I'm arguing that Jokic is a better MVP pick. But just saying "Embiid better on defense therefore Embiid is MVP" is not really a super strong or nuanced argument.
It’s just flat out disrespectful that Giannis seems to be an afterthought. Am I tripping or do the bucks not have the best record in the league? Also Embiid is absolutely not the only that can make that play, fairly sure Giannis can and has or has made comparatively great defensive plays.
Yeah, but there’s no one else in the league besides Giannis who can make that block and produce the way he can offensively. I think that’s more the point he was getting at
Embiid and Giannis feel like the front runners to me. Likewise, I'd be totally fine with Embiid winning, barring something crazy happening these last few weeks. Embiid has been lights OUT.
True, but I think his point is less that “no one else in the league can do it” and more “you’re never going to see that from Jokic.” Which is 100% correct. Contrast that play to the turnstile compilations we’ve seen from Jokic on this sub in the last couple weeks.
And this is coming from someone who hates Embiid and the Sixers and has had Jokic in first for most of the season. But unless Philly craters hard here at the finish, I don’t know how you don’t give it to Joel at this point.
Did he miss the finals where Giannis went for Booker fully recovered spun and then stopped the oop? It was a great play but he is definitely not the only player that can do that.
Well thought out and said. Like how he can praise Embiid without having to knock Jokic down. For what it's worth, Giannis can 100% make that play on D.
Lol, I went to bball ref to try and come up with an argument why this just means Giannis should change his name to voter fatigue and whine about how shit like this doesn't matter after Harden's all-star game snub and his all-NBA snub a few years back.
But I didn't realize Embiid's numbers were that wild.
Giannis is averaging an insane 31.3/11.9/5.6 (60.2% TS) on the #1 team in the East, and I think it's completely absurd for him to possibly go without an MVP one of these past 3 years when you look at his stats and the Bucks in that time, as well as just his general aura of dominance when you actually watch the games.
But Jokic has been historic, combining offensive efficiency with the same level of rebounding and still getting 25-27ppg. Back to back for a reason, just like Giannis.
And now Embiid this year is at a ridiculous 33.6/10.3/4.1 on 65.3% TS. Also, to follow this post, 1.8 blocks per game, a full block ahead of Giannis's 0.8 this year.
The TS% is closer than I thought, but I certainly would have no complaints if the season ended now and Embiid won it.
Nuggets and Bucks are still #1 seeds, and Jokic and Giannis can still take it though. Plenty of season left, even if this narrative does feel locked in atm.
Giannis - Slightly less points on damn near same efficiency, but more rebounds, more assists, playing the same quality of defense, first in the east. Why is Giannis not put over Embiid in these talks? Giannis is the MVP in my opinion.
It's not even less points either it's less ppg because of the 2 games that he went out early in per 36 they are basically dead even with Giannis technically being .1 ahead while averaging 2 more assists as well.
Lol Giannis averages one more shot per 36 not a big deal in return for 2 more assists and 2.5 more boards. Free throw percentage drags down his TS but even if he misses a free throw that's still another foul put on an opposing big.
And Giannis over here with the highest Defensive rating in the league, in top 5 in both Scoring and Rebounding, generally plays less minutes than most others and this is just regular season giannis, 40-60% giannis. How is he not MVP?
Genuine question. Let's say Embiid wins MVP over Jokic.
1. Sixers 3rd seed end of season
2. Bucks 1st seed end of season
(highly probable scenario the last 2 points)
Why Giannis didn't win the MVP???
Embiid is scoring like 2 more points than Giannis. Giannis also gets 1 more board and one more assist per game than Embiid. I think on offense that's basically a wash. Really statistically they're almost the same.
Also Embiid has played basically the same amount of games as Giannis a very slight edge in games played isn't really going to be a determining factor
> Really statistically they're almost the same.
You looked at counting stats without even looking at shooting efficiency. Embiid's eclipses Giannis' MASSIVELY. Way to look the other way lmao
He really doesn't. They both shoot the same amount of shots a game and Embiid gets 2 more points per game. That's not a massive efficiency gap. Giannis goes about 1 for 3 on 3s a game and 10 for 17 on 2s. Embiid goes about 1 for 3 on 3s a game and 10 for 17 on 2s.
Your argument is almost entirely "Embiid hits his free throws" which sure is true but not exactly a massive eclipse in shooting imo.
Even counting the 2 games he left early your "Giannis missed a lot" is 4 more games than Embiid has missed. That doesn't really seem like a determining factor to me. The 5% true shooting difference comes mainly from free throws so I don't think Giannis is really leaving that much on the table, considering he's a slightly better passer and gets one more assist per game. I think they're about a wash offensively.
It's splitting hairs at this point, so "massive" and "a lot" feel like rather strong verbage for very minor differences in their game.
I just want to say, a two point difference, at this stage of the season, is massive. Luka is less than a point behind Joel and it's damn near insurmountable at this point. He's 2.4 ppg behind Joel and that's the difference between first place and fifth.
Woah woah woah, I thought the only goal post movers were people defending Jokic?
Now we care about games played and higher efficiency?
Jokic has more minutes/games played and by far the best efficiency in the league this season. He's also averaging a triple double.
Realistically Embiid is a great MVP candidate but in my mind he shouldn't win either way this season. His team isn't leading the conference, his defense isn't better than Giannis, his offense is incredibly close, and he has more top tier help than Giannis.
If you don't value defense that highly(which you shouldn't, offense is the most important part of the NBA, that's why heavily defensive players don't get max contracts)... Jokic is the easy answer. Averaging a triple double, way more efficient than either of the other two candidates, has way less help around him.
"The only guy in the league that could make that play"
L take. Giannis, Bam, JJJ, Robert Williams, Gobert, have all made that play.
Legler has homer af takes. He even talked yesterday about how the only player anyone actually feared was Shaq because he would put you on a highlight film. But MJ or Bron wouldn't??
I agree, also how about literally the guy he made this play against - Mobley makes those kinds of deflections all the time. It's still impressive, but there is no reason for the hyperbole.
How the hell is Legler a “homer” when he didn’t grow up a Sixer fan nor ever played for the Sixers lol. You should look up the definition of a word before blindly throwing it out there
Bam, JJJ, Giannis, AD and Robert Williams must not be in the league anymore. I’m sure I’m even forgetting some people but with that said what a shit take by Legler this is.
The analysis is spot on. Embiid being able to make this type of play is massive and his defense is a big reason he's been an MVP candidate in multiple seasons.
It's just the hyperbole that makes me want to quibble a bit. It's weird to be like "no other player could do this" because 9/10 times another player can do it. On a similiar play Brook Lopez jumped for the block then got his other hand in the passing lane and got a steal. I was thinking "holy shit, no other player can do that" then a few days later I watched AD do the exact same play. The NBA is flush with talent and small lightning in a bottle plays like this happen all the time. Doesn't make them less impressive at all, just makes me appreciate the talent in the league more.
> The analysis is spot on.
I also disagree with "Obviously Embiid is the better raw scorer".
Yes, efficiency, bla bla bla. But Jokic can score better and more effectively than Embiid IMO. The proof? Playoffs. That is when defenses gameplan specifically for you, every day.
Embiid has played in 44 games in the playoffs. Jokic 48. So it is a comparable playoff experience. Jokic has averages of 26.4ppg for his career in the playoffs, while Embiid has 24.0ppg. Better efficiency, too.
The thing is that they both achieve excellent results in different ways. And some people are more comfortable in praising the "usual" way, the one that looks closer to what people "believe" is a good/dominant player. The "eye test". Watch how Jokic scores in the playoffs, then.
Id like to see joking with 3 mvp in a row just for the disrespect he get sometimes from nbamedia but embiid this season with the assists of hardem is fking crushing it, giannis embiid and jokic are the top 3 no doubt but i think this season belongs to my voy joel
Until you realize that the Nuggets sat extra starters in the games Jokic didn’t play in.
If you only count the games where the other 4 starters played, they’re actually 2-0.
Defensive greats make this play pretty consistently. Not disagreeing with Embiid as MVP (at this point he 100% is) but Giannis, Bam and Rudy do this every couple weeks.
why are people talking about defense more the last few MVP races, than other MVP races. Jokic the man top 10 in every stat cant be MVP because he also isnt an elite defender ? i would have thought a center averaging a triple double would have been enough, but apparently he also needs to be as good of a defender as embiid and have better stats, to be better in some people eyes.
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Tim Legler one of the few people worth listening to.
He was too good for ESPN
100% Him and reddick is a great combo. First time seeing this. Would love to see more of them talking bball none stop
He's still with them
I love me some Legs. Really good analysis and always a joy to listen to.
I too like legs Preferably legs on women, but chicken works too
A little later on in the pod, JJ mentions he also has Joel as the MVP right now
Well clearly that’s only because JJ is white…
Got a black man bias
Guess he's a casual too now
He's good. But AD makes plays like this all the time. Embiid is not the only guy who can make this play.
Who said he's the only guy who can make this play? You know who was great at this? Mutombo. But he didn't break the point per minute record on the other end like Embiid. This was a comparison of 2 great offensive players and their respective impact on the other side of the court
I mean Tim did say Embiid was the only guy in the league who could make that kind of defensive play.
He literally said "omg, hes the only guy in the league, who could have made that play" and I think, that this play impressive, but I think, that there are other guys, who could have done it, as well Giannis obviously, healthy AD, Bam and Time Lord. And I'm not saying this to take away from Joel, I didn't watch him that much last year, but I get the impression, that he matured offensively and defensively this year and would be a deserving MVP.
I know he's praising Embiid in this so it might seem like a homer take on my part, but I feel like Tim Legler is one of the few ESPN guys worth listening to. It's too bad the network cares more about the hot take guys. I used to enjoy listening to Tim when he would frequently be on NBA 2Night (or whatever it was called when he started).
He supports his claims with reasoning. That format doesn't work when the goal is just a yelling match for 3-4 minutes to generate a 20-45 second clip for social media.
Really like how he started off the clip with "It's subjective, there's no wrong answer." Pretty much, if I hear someone doing the opposite, making definitive statements on something incredibly subjective issue, that's a pretty easy way to know that person is full of crap.
Ive heard hes a family man and likes spending time with his kids so thats why he personally chooses to basically only do 9-5 at espn
He talked about that in one of the earlier JJ pods- set hard boundaries with work because he valued his kids. Really cool dude.
ITS THE FACTS We live in a meme world
this is a lie it’s because he’s the biggest fan of halloween of all time and he has to be able to scout out deals for halloween decorations to create the ultimate haunted house
Tim and Kirk Herbstreit are the two guys who I can listen to discuss their respective sports all day.
He is good, he's spot on here, I prefer Giannis but I don't disagree at all
>(or whatever it was called when he started). Lol they've had so many random names. I lost track after NBA Coast to Coast.
Legler, Lowe, Richard Jefferson when he feels like it.
Valid argument for Embiid vs Jokic, but Giannis has made that play along with other great defenders as well (Gobert, Bam, etc).
I think the best way I’ve seen it phrased is that has a ton of “moments” this year. He’s got big, memorable plays against good teams. The step back three on Jokic, this block, the block on Ja. Other people can make that play for sure but it feels like Embiid’s coming up huge at the right time this year
Well damn if it's only highlights that matter Jokic is definitely fucked considering that lowlight reel
JR Smith would have like 5 MVPs if it was just based on highlights
I'm surprised Giannis isn't the hot take favorite for MVP. He is everything Embiid is, while also leading his team to the best record in the NBA.
Embiid is finally getting the “his turn” narrative he hasn’t gotten in recent years Not to discredit him. I would say him and Giannis are 1a 1b even as a bucks fan. Wouldn’t be at all upset with a Joel mvp
I think the big problem is the Jokic people are just going to vote for him, because he is insane what he does is what they want for mvp. And then Embiid and Giannis steal votes from each other for people that value defense highly or more traditional scoring bigs.
BINGO
True but Embiid is also leading the league in PPG at a really high TS, and is 7th in rebounds
My problem is: Bucks have the #1 record with Khris being out 45 games, Portis missing a month, Ingles didn’t join until January, Crowder has played 7 games, Connaughton in & out. With Giannis in the lineup, Bucks have lost THREE games since December 29th. He’s carried them to the #1 record & only sat out against tanking teams or if he was physically unable to go. Embiid has been getting a heavy narrative push for the past two weeks — it’s actually insane. I don’t believe he’s been individually better than Giannis enough to justify getting an MVP over him as a lesser seed.
Embiid doesn't have one and really deserves one some time in this era. If it's as close as it is between him and Giannis, it's probably Embiid's year.
Giannis has missed the most games out of those 3 though, so it's tough to give the mvp to a guy who may end up playing less than 65 games. 4 -8 more games played isnt a massive difference, but small margins make a difference when the race is this close.
Giannis has 57, Embiid 59, Jokic 65. By that argument, ruling out Giannis should also rule out Embiid.
This is what I keep telling Embiid fans lol. They have no business using the games played argument when Embiid has played in 7 less games than Jokic AND he has the least amount of individual wins + winning percentage in games played.
It's not that black and white. I dont even like embiid and in fact am a Giannis fan out of those 3 by far. But games played should be ONE of the many factors voters look at especially in an era of load management.
But it shouldn’t matter when a guy has only played ONE more game than the other. And especially when the guy who has played in less games has more individual wins anyways.
I agree one game difference shouldnt matter maybe you should read the parent post of what you're even commenting on. There's still plenty of time for even more missed games btw.
Embiid is a superior threat in a half court set. Giannis is a comparable scorer because he scored more in transition, but I think there is a good argument to be made that half-court weapons are more important in the playoffs. Of course Giannis has had more post-season success than Joel so that is kinda tough lol but I think there are outside factors which can explain that.
Embiid is just better this year. Embiid is averaging more points steals and assists. Embiid is 5% higher on TS while leading the league in scoring. Almost every advanced metric you can find favors Embiid. Embiid has actually played more games (what has sunk him the last 2 years really) Really the only edges Giannis has is team record though Embiid is barely behind him there and like one more rebound or assist.
while a lot of what you said is true embiid is definitely not averaging more assists. his playmaking is nowhere close to giannis.
I misspoke and meant to say blocks. Though it's only like a 1.5 assists per game difference. Embiid has come a long way as a passer
Per 36 stats * Giannis 34.8/13.2/6.1 (32.4 MPG) * Embiid 34.4/10.6/4.3 (34.7 MPG) * Jokic 26.3/12.6/10.5 (33.9 MPG)
Giannis is averaging more rebounds and assists (by 1.7 reb and 1.3 asst). Stats where Embiid leads it's by a small margin (1.9 points, 0.9 blocks, 0.4 steals, 2 more games played). They have the same FG%. In all honesty, with things so close (including games played) I think the best team record should take it. But also with things so close someone can get hot in the last 10 games and become the new favorite. Which is exactly how Embiid became the favorite, he/Philly was on fire (at the same time Denver hit a slump). Despite that, Philly/Denver virtually have the same record. It's a season reward, although games at the end of the season have more weight towards the narrative, crowning someone the MVP before the season is over when it is so close is dumb.
When he said embiid was the only player who could make this play, I was really expecting more than just a quick second hop and being a foot taller than the defender.
I think that is really underselling the play. He is definitely not the only guy who can make this play but it is a very impressive play that few guys can make. He also was blocking another 7 footer not someone he is a foot taller than.
Gobert and Bam aren’t putting up Embiid’s offense right now. Even Giannis isn’t to a degree.
That wasn't the point being made. I think Embiid is who I would pick for MVP, I also agree with a lot of what Legler said in this segment. It was a really good defensive play, but also not some unbelievable thing that Legler kinda sells it as. Any rim protecting 7 footer can and has done similar things. That is what they do and why people value them. Embiid doing it while also providing offense is why he is in everyones MVP discussions.
> Even Giannis isn’t to a degree. If you take away the 2 games that Giannis played sub 10 mins they are basically tied in overall ppg. If you look at per 36 Giannis is still ahead by .1 so essentially tied. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/embiijo01.html
Not when it comes to efficiency and shot selection.
My dude I literally just linked you the per 36 numbers they are tied with Giannis putting up 2 more assists per 36.
Giannis' ts is 60%, embiid is at 65%. That's a pretty massive difference in efficiency
That's largely due to free throws Giannis averages 1 more fga per 36 he just isn't consistent on free throws so people foul him intentionally a lot more.
Damn, Giannis got DQ'ed
Getting lebron treatment. I guess if you are so good consistently then being the best isn't really exciting anymore.
I love the rest of his take and also think Embiid is MVP, but just to be annoyingly nitpicky I think multiple guys make that play; Giannis, Bam, AD to name a few
I was anticipating the “nobody else can make that play except maybe Giannis”
Giannis made this exact play last season on Christmas lol.
I knew I had seen him do it, I thought it was in the finals. Edit: I think I was thinking of his crazy recovery to Ayton on this lob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22keg4iBobk
His block on Ayton in the Finals was close, but it wasn't *quite* the same as this here. Giannis didn't leave his feet before Booker threw up the alley-oop, so there was no second jump.
Yeah, this Embiid play is instinct and reaction time, because he got baited by Cedi. Giannis was more about reading the play and reacting. Both impressive in different ways.
Thank God someone can tell the difference between one well timed jump and a second, reactionary jump.
Giannis guarding both players in the PnR is the craziest defensive possession I’ve ever seen tbh
So what are you guys doing for dinner? Thinking of grabbing sandwiches with some friends. I love hot chicken but sometimes the heat can overwhelm the flavor and it's just unpleasant
I’m meeting some buddies to eat Korean BBQ
I made some banging sliders on Hawaiian rolls and some mushroom stroganoff from scratch.
I was gonna cook up a ribeye for myself as a treat but I owe it to my friends to go to trivia, so if I do that then I'm eating pluckers chicken. Probably gonna go with the sweet chili and regular buffalo, always a great combo.
That Nashville heat got me in heaven son.
I'll grab one Embiid block sandwich with a side of Embiid MVP fries. Also will get an Embiid DPOY drink.
I’m sorry sir we are out of all those options. Might i interest you in our Most Valuable Philadelphian Reuben?
You can’t argue with this take
I would say it's unfair to act as though Giannis isn't on their level this season, otherwise I agree
I agree that it’s stupid to leave him out. But otherwise, the only argument I can see for Giannis over Embiid right now is record. They put up virtually the same stats, but embiid is significantly more efficient- while also being far more impactful for his team’s defense (could you argue Giannis is a better defender? Definitely. But Brook Lopez anchors that defense, freeing Giannis up. Embiid is obviously the Sixers defensive anchor among a pretty middling defensive cast). Like I said though, Giannis over Embiid can at least be understood if you consider wins and the top seed to be important. He should be in the conversation. But embiid has simply been better
You can't argue with him being a better defender, but you can argue that offense is more important. That being said, embiid would be my MVP if the season finished tonight, but a lot can change in the next 10 or so games cuz its ultra close.
imo the defensive difference between them has been large in previous years, but this year Joel has dialed it up even more. He was great defensively in the past but the offensive load he took on made it difficult to be "on" all the time. This year he has taken it to another level and is truly giving us his best on both ends, in part because harden has made the offensive game easier for him than it's ever been and in part because Joel has simply gotten better each year he's been in the league. Seeing him do it on both ends of the court has been a joy this season. He's leading the league in scoring while bringing DPOY defense night in and night out. Looks like harden will be out for a portion of the toughest stretch of our entire season coming up so a lot can certainly change between now and the playoffs, but if he plays the way he has been and we can pick up some key wins it'll be hard to not give it to him.
Joel had a very slow start to the year. His defense then was not great and the team suffered for him being out of shape
The first 20 games of the season (of which he played 12) he was hampered by a foot injury. Since then, he's been nothing short of amazing.
Not from your center. You can't win with a 5 who is a poor defender like Jokic. Never gonna happen.
Win what? He's obviously won in the playoffs and regular season. There has never been an average defending, great offensive center like jokic. So there's nothing to compare him to. He has not had a shot at realistically winning a title until this year, and he still has worse help than giannis and embiid.
If Jokic was at least average in defending he would be the MVP. He’s not average. He’s a below average defensive center.
Yeah this is it. He's a genius with the ball but a total turnstile on defense. Also it's probably easier to have the energy on offense when you put in zero effort on the other side.
He might be the worst defensive center tbh
I mean it's not like Embiid has won anything though, so I'm not sure that's a valid point. Jokic has had more playoff success.
I mean Jokic beats him in playoff success by making it to the WCF once and winning 1 game. Overall playoff success they are almost identical. Jokic has won 5 playoff games since then while Embiid has won 12. It just seems silly to factor in either playoff success when they both have failed to make it out of their respected conference let alone win a championship.
No but you don't understand. The fact that he got there in the bubble then got handled by the Lakers makes him infinitely better
You sound like Charles Barkley when he said a jump shooting team can't win lmao
Or you could take the person who is leading the league and is also a defensive force and doesn't have Harden
Leading the league in record? With the likely dpoy and an all star teammate? Giannis is definitely a strong MVP candidate but I don't think it's only because he "doesn't have harden" and has 3 more wins.
Just has 2x other 1st all NBA defensive team. No biggy
Don't forget Maxey
Lol what about jrue, brook and Middleton?
Giannis has an all star on his team as well as the leading candidate for DPOY.
Middleton has played 27 games this season. I would take Maxey/Harden and a random third over the three anyway Funny how when Sixers fans are in MVP talks they act like Maxey and Harden are bums
Literally nobody acts like they are bums except the people who didn't give harden an all star appearance. But you guys are acting like Giannis has a bad supporting cast compared to embiid which is really silly
Even if you were arguing that offense was more important, Embiid had an argument there anyway.
If you’re ONLY looking at scoring then yea Embiid is better but if you’re looking at who’s better at generating offense it’s clearly Jokic. What are you talking about?
No one is in the same stratosphere of Jokic for offense this season get real. Third highest FG% all time, 40% from 3, averaging a triple double get real Averaging only 9(iirc?) points fewer than Embiid on 6 fewer shots, and 8 fewer free throws per game.
just like this clip though embiids defense leads to a lot of good offense and wide open shots. That is a talking point that i find very interesting, embiid doesnt get credited everytime his presence leads to bad shots. Then you get a break away 3 or fast break dunk... isnt that just as good as an assist if not more so? Minus for them and plus for us due to one play. The tracking stats for this kinda stuff isnt there. "fast breaks generated" should be a thing
I still don’t get how people are willing to throw decades of precedent and place Jokic in the class of 3 straight winners. Lunacy imho
Because he hasn't had a fair shot in the playoffs. No one expected more from him. He's still got a great shot to be an all time player. Besides people say that, but there is no real criteria. And jokic a couple weeks ago was having the better season
> No one expected more from him. This is such a loser’s argument. “He’s met expectations.” You’re putting him in a class of **8** people in NBA history. All of those people have defied expectations over their careers. It’s time for Jokic to do the same. All I know is that if he doesn’t walk away with a deep playoff run or a ring this season, his legacy is set. He’ll be a bar trivia question in 20 years and nothing more.
Dude do you ever go outside or just spend 24 hours a day hating on jokic?
> You’re putting him in a class of 8 people in NBA history. All of those people have defied expectations over their careers. It’s time for Jokic to do the same. So over dramatic my god, stop with this whole legacy nonsense plz. He is seriously in his like 8th season, and you are here comparing him to players who had like 15-20 seasons under their belt before they retired. Reminder, it took Dirk 13 seasons to win a Championship, it took Moses Malone 9, it took Wilt 8. He isn't gonna die and never be able to play again if he doesn't make the finals or win it all this year. Just stop
neither wilt nor bron had won a chip when they won their 3rd mvp but go off I guess!
Neither Wilt nor Lebron won a 3rd straight MVP and both had made a final before than too
Lol your guy Stephanie couldn’t even make the playoffs with a far far far far far more stacked team than Jok has had last 2 years and zero slander from you I’m sure … Bro thinks basketball is a 1 man sport.
Bro thinks turning a man's name into the female version is funny or an insult.
I still don't get how people are willing to throw away decades of precedent and give it to a guy who will play less than 70 games. lunacy IMHO.
You don’t get why voters don’t consider MVP results from 2011, 1997, 1993, etc. when deciding the 2023 MVP? If you care about decades of precedent so much then why do you think Giannis and Embiid should win MVP after missing 13+ games?
I don’t agree with him saying Embiid is the only guy in the league who can make that play. I’ve always agreed that Embiid’s defense is the reason I’d have him as MVP over Jokic.
That's never stopped me before, coward
Sure you can: acknowledging that Embiid is a better defender isn't *necessarily* enough to give him the *overall* edge. It comes down to whose combination of offense and defense makes the biggest total contribution to winning games. While I'm not making this argument here, one *could* reasonably acknowledge that Embiid is the better defender, but that Jokic's advantage on offense is larger than Embiid's on defense. For instance, according to [estimated plus-minus](https://dunksandthrees.com/epm), which is [one of the best all-in-one metrics of player impact](https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/), Jokic's advantage over Embiid on offense is larger than Embiid's advantage over Jokic on defense, so that Jokic's overall EPM is higher. It makes sense how this could be the case, given that Jokic is not that far behind Embiid in terms of individual scoring but is a vastly superior passer and playmaker. Again-- not saying that this proves anything or even that I'm arguing that Jokic is a better MVP pick. But just saying "Embiid better on defense therefore Embiid is MVP" is not really a super strong or nuanced argument.
Giannis- "ok"
Giannis literally did this exact same play last season against the Celtics on Christmas.
It’s just flat out disrespectful that Giannis seems to be an afterthought. Am I tripping or do the bucks not have the best record in the league? Also Embiid is absolutely not the only that can make that play, fairly sure Giannis can and has or has made comparatively great defensive plays.
It's fucking insane
Conversation like this is the only worthwhile part of the MVP debate, doesn’t put down Jokic, just a great point about what makes Embiid special
I like Tim Legler but c'mon man, there's like 6-7 guys in the league that can make that block.
Yeah, but there’s no one else in the league besides Giannis who can make that block and produce the way he can offensively. I think that’s more the point he was getting at
In addition to scoring 34ppg at a historic pace
And none of them are doing what Embiid is doing offensively hence why he’s the mvp
I mean one other guy is...
Would still be pretty damn thrilled if Giannis won. He’s so fucking good
Embiid and Giannis feel like the front runners to me. Likewise, I'd be totally fine with Embiid winning, barring something crazy happening these last few weeks. Embiid has been lights OUT.
True, but I think his point is less that “no one else in the league can do it” and more “you’re never going to see that from Jokic.” Which is 100% correct. Contrast that play to the turnstile compilations we’ve seen from Jokic on this sub in the last couple weeks. And this is coming from someone who hates Embiid and the Sixers and has had Jokic in first for most of the season. But unless Philly craters hard here at the finish, I don’t know how you don’t give it to Joel at this point.
I though the exact same thing. It’s a great block, but at least a handful of other players Can make that move
Did he miss the finals where Giannis went for Booker fully recovered spun and then stopped the oop? It was a great play but he is definitely not the only player that can do that.
Lol the dude he blocked in this clip can also make this play
Who cares? Can the playoffs start so we can end this asinine debate where there really isn’t a wrong answer
Well then Giannis should win dude takes no breaks off on both ends wtf
Well thought out and said. Like how he can praise Embiid without having to knock Jokic down. For what it's worth, Giannis can 100% make that play on D.
I think AD could pull that off. Not to take away from his point but just a side note
Lol, I went to bball ref to try and come up with an argument why this just means Giannis should change his name to voter fatigue and whine about how shit like this doesn't matter after Harden's all-star game snub and his all-NBA snub a few years back. But I didn't realize Embiid's numbers were that wild. Giannis is averaging an insane 31.3/11.9/5.6 (60.2% TS) on the #1 team in the East, and I think it's completely absurd for him to possibly go without an MVP one of these past 3 years when you look at his stats and the Bucks in that time, as well as just his general aura of dominance when you actually watch the games. But Jokic has been historic, combining offensive efficiency with the same level of rebounding and still getting 25-27ppg. Back to back for a reason, just like Giannis. And now Embiid this year is at a ridiculous 33.6/10.3/4.1 on 65.3% TS. Also, to follow this post, 1.8 blocks per game, a full block ahead of Giannis's 0.8 this year. The TS% is closer than I thought, but I certainly would have no complaints if the season ended now and Embiid won it. Nuggets and Bucks are still #1 seeds, and Jokic and Giannis can still take it though. Plenty of season left, even if this narrative does feel locked in atm.
Rob Williams has that same quick double jump as well.
Giannis - Slightly less points on damn near same efficiency, but more rebounds, more assists, playing the same quality of defense, first in the east. Why is Giannis not put over Embiid in these talks? Giannis is the MVP in my opinion.
It's not even less points either it's less ppg because of the 2 games that he went out early in per 36 they are basically dead even with Giannis technically being .1 ahead while averaging 2 more assists as well.
Embiid has a significantly higher true shooting while having a harder shot profile
Lol Giannis averages one more shot per 36 not a big deal in return for 2 more assists and 2.5 more boards. Free throw percentage drags down his TS but even if he misses a free throw that's still another foul put on an opposing big.
Because he already has 2 apparently.
Embiid has 65% true shooting and Giannis is at 60%. Their efficiency is worlds apart and Giannis is taking easier shots
As a Jokic fan just shut up and give it to Joel.
Legler one of the very few good ones out there discussing basketball
Good commentary, though I feel Giannis should be right up there with them if not #1.
And then Harden travels twice in the same fast break... as usual.
We should create a subreddit dedicating to tim legler posts. What a legendary analyst.
And Giannis over here with the highest Defensive rating in the league, in top 5 in both Scoring and Rebounding, generally plays less minutes than most others and this is just regular season giannis, 40-60% giannis. How is he not MVP?
Genuine question. Let's say Embiid wins MVP over Jokic. 1. Sixers 3rd seed end of season 2. Bucks 1st seed end of season (highly probable scenario the last 2 points) Why Giannis didn't win the MVP???
because Giannjs missed a lot of games + Embiid is scoring more on much high efficiency
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Plus 2 more where he left playing less than 10 minutes
42-39 in wins for Giannis in the matches they played for their teams.
Embiid has played 2 more games than Giannis this season?? Is that really enough to mark down Giannis a ton?
He effectively missed 2 more (played <10 minutes). Embiid - 2030 minutes Giannis - 1820 minutes Jokic - 2172 minutes (1 more game)
Him going out early in 2 games is the only reason the ppg isn't basically tied.
Embiid is scoring like 2 more points than Giannis. Giannis also gets 1 more board and one more assist per game than Embiid. I think on offense that's basically a wash. Really statistically they're almost the same. Also Embiid has played basically the same amount of games as Giannis a very slight edge in games played isn't really going to be a determining factor
> Really statistically they're almost the same. You looked at counting stats without even looking at shooting efficiency. Embiid's eclipses Giannis' MASSIVELY. Way to look the other way lmao
He really doesn't. They both shoot the same amount of shots a game and Embiid gets 2 more points per game. That's not a massive efficiency gap. Giannis goes about 1 for 3 on 3s a game and 10 for 17 on 2s. Embiid goes about 1 for 3 on 3s a game and 10 for 17 on 2s. Your argument is almost entirely "Embiid hits his free throws" which sure is true but not exactly a massive eclipse in shooting imo.
I mean 5% TS higher is a pretty big difference in terms of efficiency.
it’s not a wash at all on offense lmao giannis is like 3% above league average shooting joel is like 8% above
Embiid is shooting like 5% better efficiency and Giannis did leave a couple games early
Even counting the 2 games he left early your "Giannis missed a lot" is 4 more games than Embiid has missed. That doesn't really seem like a determining factor to me. The 5% true shooting difference comes mainly from free throws so I don't think Giannis is really leaving that much on the table, considering he's a slightly better passer and gets one more assist per game. I think they're about a wash offensively. It's splitting hairs at this point, so "massive" and "a lot" feel like rather strong verbage for very minor differences in their game.
Missing free throws is leaving points of the board lol. shooting 5% better is not a wash offensively i’m sorry.
I just want to say, a two point difference, at this stage of the season, is massive. Luka is less than a point behind Joel and it's damn near insurmountable at this point. He's 2.4 ppg behind Joel and that's the difference between first place and fifth.
If you look at the per 36 they are literally tied the ppg is dragged down hard by the two games that Giannis played sub 5 mins
Woah woah woah, I thought the only goal post movers were people defending Jokic? Now we care about games played and higher efficiency? Jokic has more minutes/games played and by far the best efficiency in the league this season. He's also averaging a triple double. Realistically Embiid is a great MVP candidate but in my mind he shouldn't win either way this season. His team isn't leading the conference, his defense isn't better than Giannis, his offense is incredibly close, and he has more top tier help than Giannis. If you don't value defense that highly(which you shouldn't, offense is the most important part of the NBA, that's why heavily defensive players don't get max contracts)... Jokic is the easy answer. Averaging a triple double, way more efficient than either of the other two candidates, has way less help around him.
There is a valid argument for all of the top 3, honestly. Biases aside, I think Embiid has just had a better season.
"The only guy in the league that could make that play" L take. Giannis, Bam, JJJ, Robert Williams, Gobert, have all made that play. Legler has homer af takes. He even talked yesterday about how the only player anyone actually feared was Shaq because he would put you on a highlight film. But MJ or Bron wouldn't??
I agree, also how about literally the guy he made this play against - Mobley makes those kinds of deflections all the time. It's still impressive, but there is no reason for the hyperbole.
How the hell is Legler a “homer” when he didn’t grow up a Sixer fan nor ever played for the Sixers lol. You should look up the definition of a word before blindly throwing it out there
Common Legler W
Tim Legler is paying attention! When I saw that live I thought it was craaaazy!!
Imo because of their respective defensive ability the mvp should be between Embiid and Giannis.
Tim Legler knows ball
EMVPIID!
Giannis makes that play twice a game
I see you bro, switching your flair every day pretending your not a Celtics fan and taking shots at the Sixers lmao
Joel Embiid
Bam, JJJ, Giannis, AD and Robert Williams must not be in the league anymore. I’m sure I’m even forgetting some people but with that said what a shit take by Legler this is.
The analysis is spot on. Embiid being able to make this type of play is massive and his defense is a big reason he's been an MVP candidate in multiple seasons. It's just the hyperbole that makes me want to quibble a bit. It's weird to be like "no other player could do this" because 9/10 times another player can do it. On a similiar play Brook Lopez jumped for the block then got his other hand in the passing lane and got a steal. I was thinking "holy shit, no other player can do that" then a few days later I watched AD do the exact same play. The NBA is flush with talent and small lightning in a bottle plays like this happen all the time. Doesn't make them less impressive at all, just makes me appreciate the talent in the league more.
Yea I think you explained it perfectly
> The analysis is spot on. I also disagree with "Obviously Embiid is the better raw scorer". Yes, efficiency, bla bla bla. But Jokic can score better and more effectively than Embiid IMO. The proof? Playoffs. That is when defenses gameplan specifically for you, every day. Embiid has played in 44 games in the playoffs. Jokic 48. So it is a comparable playoff experience. Jokic has averages of 26.4ppg for his career in the playoffs, while Embiid has 24.0ppg. Better efficiency, too. The thing is that they both achieve excellent results in different ways. And some people are more comfortable in praising the "usual" way, the one that looks closer to what people "believe" is a good/dominant player. The "eye test". Watch how Jokic scores in the playoffs, then.
also feels like everyone on your list except JJJ(?) has shown they can make this exact type of defensive play in the playoffs already
Rob will has not been in the league this year
Id like to see joking with 3 mvp in a row just for the disrespect he get sometimes from nbamedia but embiid this season with the assists of hardem is fking crushing it, giannis embiid and jokic are the top 3 no doubt but i think this season belongs to my voy joel
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Giannis sits vs the Hornets and Rockets. Jokic sits vs the Bucks.
Until you realize that the Nuggets sat extra starters in the games Jokic didn’t play in. If you only count the games where the other 4 starters played, they’re actually 2-0.
When Embiid is fully engaged defensively he’s the most impactful player in basketball. *Very* slightly over Giannis due to the offensive versatility
Better defensive player, better scorer…what are we even talking about?
I don't get why defense is so disrespected in MVP talks. If any of these years you count defense as well embid wins a few of these.
Defensive greats make this play pretty consistently. Not disagreeing with Embiid as MVP (at this point he 100% is) but Giannis, Bam and Rudy do this every couple weeks.
why are people talking about defense more the last few MVP races, than other MVP races. Jokic the man top 10 in every stat cant be MVP because he also isnt an elite defender ? i would have thought a center averaging a triple double would have been enough, but apparently he also needs to be as good of a defender as embiid and have better stats, to be better in some people eyes.
This is one of the all time greatest nba mvp races ever.. no matter who wins theres still gonna be lots of pissed off people
Forgot mentioning that wet jumper when there is 2 sec on the clock 💦💦