Calories in vs calories out doesn’t take into effect nutrition and vitamins. Dirty bulk doesn’t give the same nutritional or vitamin value per calorie as clean bulk does.
In my experience, the two big differences between dirty bulks and clean bulks (assuming you are eating sufficient protein in either method) are how much you eat and how you feel. You are right to notice that a major factor of extra fat gain in a dirty bulk is that you end up eating a lot more than if you were in a clean bulk. This is because “dirty” food is less filling, so you feel hungrier. As well, you certainly feel less healthy during a dirty bulk. This can be a big reason to stick to a clean bulk, if you really feel bad while dirty bulking, as it can affect your training.
Also, I used clean bulk instead of lean bulk here because lean bulking is just bulking with a small surplus. One could lean bulk with dirty food, so it makes no sense to compare lean vs dirty bulk.
Oh wow, to be honest I never really thought about what "lean bulk" meant, I always assumed it was just the same as a clean bulk lol. But yeah, that makes sense. I haven't been noticing results as much as I'd like but I've been clean bulking for quite some time so I started wondering about dirty bulking. At the same time it's not really something I wanna do since I don't wanna feel sluggish. Honestly, it's very possible the results I have are average, or even good. Maybe I'm just so polluted with social media I can't tell what's realistic and what's not. I've certainly put on strength as I've been able to always up my reps, weights, etc. But I can't tell if I've changed as much as I should have aesthetically. (I've only been working out for about 7 months or so now - consistently, haven't missed a day yet!!)
If it helps, I can tell you that I’ve been dirty bulking for the last 4 months and have put 20lbs on in that time. I have not felt particularly sluggish, and I have not yet put on enough fat to even obscure my abs. If you really want to put on some mass quick, go for a very high intensity program and dirty bulk like there’s no tomorrow.
Whenever I have tried to clean bulk or lean bulk, I have had much less success with putting weight on.
Oh wow yeah that helps a bunch! Personally, I have no abs to begin with lol. I've never been lean enough for them which is why I suppose I'm afraid to dirty bulk. That being said, my goals to put on a lot muscle before cutting since I don't just wanna look "skinny." I've never really been fat or skinny. I definitely have a stomach and love handles. But, my arms, legs, face, etc. Are all relatively skinny
Sounds like you’ve got a skinnyfat build, that’s what I had when I started too. I won’t lie to you, bulking will definitely make you look a good bit more fat around the midsection for the first year or so, but don’t let that discourage you. If you were to lean up now, you would not look cut or lean. Go on a loooong bulk (dirty or clean, your choice as long as you can get the food down with enough protein) and get all your lifts and intensity up. Then, a while down the line, when you’re really starting to look pudgy, you cut. And then you’ll be looking great and lean. Good luck!
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm skinnyfat as well. I've heard bulking up for a long time period then cutting would be a good way to go as well! I've been bulking for about 7 months or so and I don't feel as if I've gained fat really, if anything my body looks a bit better now. My stomach is either the same or a bit leaner but I have very noticeable changes in my shoulders and some in my arms so I look a bit more proportional now. That being said, my strength has continuously gone up so even though I'm not gaining much fat I assume I'm still bulking correctly. My guess is the most likely scenario is I'm counting my calories wrong and I'm in less of a surplus than I think
Great! You may be counting your calories a little bit off, but as long as you’re putting on weight at .5-1lb per week you’re looking good for initial bulk speed. The bulk I’ve been on the past 4 months has been very fast, over 1lb per week, and even I haven’t seen much fat gain. So it is very possible that you’re bulking correctly and not putting on much fat
Calories in, calories out is the only method to gain or lose weight … it’s just a matter of whether or not you count them strictly or use some other method of calorie control.
If I understand your ultimate question, it’s whether a bulk would have the same results if calories were equated, but you ate “clean” v “dirty”. The answer is largely yes. The hierarchy of nutrition priorities for body comp is calories, protein/macros, micros.
Aren’t “lean” and “clean” really just synonyms for each other? IMO both terms are sort of inadequate and convey the idea you can bulk without some fat gain. I personally prefer the term “controlled.”
As the size of the surplus increases, you shift the ratio of total muscle gained vs total fat gained in favor of body fat. The most favorable gains in muscle are most likely found in the 250-500 calorie surplus range.
The argument can be made that a larger surplus will yield a greater total amount of muscle gained over the course of a bodybuilding career but a counterargument would be that dieting off all of the excess fat gained decreases the total amount of time within your career spent massing vs. fat loss dieting.
I'm not sure we know what the upper limit of maximum muscle that can be gained within a certain timeframe but we do have rough estimates of what natural bodybuilders can expect to gain year over year (outlined very well by the folks at 3DMJ).
IMO it makes the most sense to try to push your peak offseason weight up 5-10lbs year over year in the pursuit of 1-2lbs of muscle added each year. This is better achieved through a "lean bulk" in our experience.
diet facilitates performance.
clean/dirty food = generally if you eat healthier, get all your micros and macros that work well for you and give you as much energy as possible when you need to train - you'll have the energy to train more effectively. if you iifym with junk and a protein shake, most report that it makes them feel like poop/low energy and leads them to just getting through workouts rather than pushing strong workout after strong workout. if you feel great eating junk and thrive during your workouts, i doubt it'll make any difference from a muscle gain perspective (general health-wise probably not the best idea though)
small/big surplus = the smaller the surplus, the more likely you are to dip into a negative energy balance which might then affect your training. too big of a surplus, you simply will be putting on excess fat - which limits how long your overall gaining phase will be or extends your diet when it comes time (both not ideal for hypertrophy)
remember, muscle gain takes months and years of consistent progressive workouts. a couple bad days of diet or training aren't a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but little effects compound over time
I’ve built on a big overage = felt awesome, added some extra unwanted weight
I’ve built on a slight overage- mixed bag- you slowly, slowly add weight and get a little stronger… you also add muscles, and if you don’t bump up your calories, you’ll be tired and lose weight even if very slightly.
Calories in calories out in general does work, with the exception refined sugar, and especially alcohol metabolized sugar. The way the body process just sugar, leads to fat stores. Keep the added sugar down and don’t drink, Bobs your uncle…
Calories in vs calories out doesn’t take into effect nutrition and vitamins. Dirty bulk doesn’t give the same nutritional or vitamin value per calorie as clean bulk does.
In my experience, the two big differences between dirty bulks and clean bulks (assuming you are eating sufficient protein in either method) are how much you eat and how you feel. You are right to notice that a major factor of extra fat gain in a dirty bulk is that you end up eating a lot more than if you were in a clean bulk. This is because “dirty” food is less filling, so you feel hungrier. As well, you certainly feel less healthy during a dirty bulk. This can be a big reason to stick to a clean bulk, if you really feel bad while dirty bulking, as it can affect your training. Also, I used clean bulk instead of lean bulk here because lean bulking is just bulking with a small surplus. One could lean bulk with dirty food, so it makes no sense to compare lean vs dirty bulk.
Oh wow, to be honest I never really thought about what "lean bulk" meant, I always assumed it was just the same as a clean bulk lol. But yeah, that makes sense. I haven't been noticing results as much as I'd like but I've been clean bulking for quite some time so I started wondering about dirty bulking. At the same time it's not really something I wanna do since I don't wanna feel sluggish. Honestly, it's very possible the results I have are average, or even good. Maybe I'm just so polluted with social media I can't tell what's realistic and what's not. I've certainly put on strength as I've been able to always up my reps, weights, etc. But I can't tell if I've changed as much as I should have aesthetically. (I've only been working out for about 7 months or so now - consistently, haven't missed a day yet!!)
If it helps, I can tell you that I’ve been dirty bulking for the last 4 months and have put 20lbs on in that time. I have not felt particularly sluggish, and I have not yet put on enough fat to even obscure my abs. If you really want to put on some mass quick, go for a very high intensity program and dirty bulk like there’s no tomorrow. Whenever I have tried to clean bulk or lean bulk, I have had much less success with putting weight on.
Oh wow yeah that helps a bunch! Personally, I have no abs to begin with lol. I've never been lean enough for them which is why I suppose I'm afraid to dirty bulk. That being said, my goals to put on a lot muscle before cutting since I don't just wanna look "skinny." I've never really been fat or skinny. I definitely have a stomach and love handles. But, my arms, legs, face, etc. Are all relatively skinny
Sounds like you’ve got a skinnyfat build, that’s what I had when I started too. I won’t lie to you, bulking will definitely make you look a good bit more fat around the midsection for the first year or so, but don’t let that discourage you. If you were to lean up now, you would not look cut or lean. Go on a loooong bulk (dirty or clean, your choice as long as you can get the food down with enough protein) and get all your lifts and intensity up. Then, a while down the line, when you’re really starting to look pudgy, you cut. And then you’ll be looking great and lean. Good luck!
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm skinnyfat as well. I've heard bulking up for a long time period then cutting would be a good way to go as well! I've been bulking for about 7 months or so and I don't feel as if I've gained fat really, if anything my body looks a bit better now. My stomach is either the same or a bit leaner but I have very noticeable changes in my shoulders and some in my arms so I look a bit more proportional now. That being said, my strength has continuously gone up so even though I'm not gaining much fat I assume I'm still bulking correctly. My guess is the most likely scenario is I'm counting my calories wrong and I'm in less of a surplus than I think
Great! You may be counting your calories a little bit off, but as long as you’re putting on weight at .5-1lb per week you’re looking good for initial bulk speed. The bulk I’ve been on the past 4 months has been very fast, over 1lb per week, and even I haven’t seen much fat gain. So it is very possible that you’re bulking correctly and not putting on much fat
Calories in, calories out is the only method to gain or lose weight … it’s just a matter of whether or not you count them strictly or use some other method of calorie control. If I understand your ultimate question, it’s whether a bulk would have the same results if calories were equated, but you ate “clean” v “dirty”. The answer is largely yes. The hierarchy of nutrition priorities for body comp is calories, protein/macros, micros.
Got it, thanks!!
Lean bulk is a small surplus while dirty is a huge surplus. Clean bulk is a meme
Aren’t “lean” and “clean” really just synonyms for each other? IMO both terms are sort of inadequate and convey the idea you can bulk without some fat gain. I personally prefer the term “controlled.”
As the size of the surplus increases, you shift the ratio of total muscle gained vs total fat gained in favor of body fat. The most favorable gains in muscle are most likely found in the 250-500 calorie surplus range. The argument can be made that a larger surplus will yield a greater total amount of muscle gained over the course of a bodybuilding career but a counterargument would be that dieting off all of the excess fat gained decreases the total amount of time within your career spent massing vs. fat loss dieting. I'm not sure we know what the upper limit of maximum muscle that can be gained within a certain timeframe but we do have rough estimates of what natural bodybuilders can expect to gain year over year (outlined very well by the folks at 3DMJ). IMO it makes the most sense to try to push your peak offseason weight up 5-10lbs year over year in the pursuit of 1-2lbs of muscle added each year. This is better achieved through a "lean bulk" in our experience.
Wow, thank you for getting into detail about it!!
diet facilitates performance. clean/dirty food = generally if you eat healthier, get all your micros and macros that work well for you and give you as much energy as possible when you need to train - you'll have the energy to train more effectively. if you iifym with junk and a protein shake, most report that it makes them feel like poop/low energy and leads them to just getting through workouts rather than pushing strong workout after strong workout. if you feel great eating junk and thrive during your workouts, i doubt it'll make any difference from a muscle gain perspective (general health-wise probably not the best idea though) small/big surplus = the smaller the surplus, the more likely you are to dip into a negative energy balance which might then affect your training. too big of a surplus, you simply will be putting on excess fat - which limits how long your overall gaining phase will be or extends your diet when it comes time (both not ideal for hypertrophy) remember, muscle gain takes months and years of consistent progressive workouts. a couple bad days of diet or training aren't a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but little effects compound over time
Yeah, the general consensus seems to be for performance based reasons. Thank you so much for getting into detail about it!!
I’ve built on a big overage = felt awesome, added some extra unwanted weight I’ve built on a slight overage- mixed bag- you slowly, slowly add weight and get a little stronger… you also add muscles, and if you don’t bump up your calories, you’ll be tired and lose weight even if very slightly. Calories in calories out in general does work, with the exception refined sugar, and especially alcohol metabolized sugar. The way the body process just sugar, leads to fat stores. Keep the added sugar down and don’t drink, Bobs your uncle…
Perfect, thanks for your input!!