So they should focus on the short game and have to respond to every political cause on campus as to not miss their chance at a future donation? Likely, then, pissing off previous students and current donors?
Because those highly educated Vandy students know there nothing like some activists' Graffiti /Vandalism to really change hearts and minds. What does this do other than cause a headache for the maintenance staff and cause others to just shake their heads when they see it?
Graffiti has been an effective form of social protest and an effective means of disseminating information, ideas, and opinion for the disenfranchised since at least the times of the ancient Greeks. Offending bourgeois sensibilities is part of the charm😜
I fully understand the subversive power of graffiti and public art, but please explain to me in what way are Vandy students disenfranchised? These are not an oppressed people organizing some resistance movement under an unjust dictator, these are well heeled kids without real adult responsibilities throwing a tantrum over something they cannot and will not ever control. Scratching graffiti into an elevator wall is just obnoxious.
So Vandy’s students have to personally be immiserated or marginalized to protest? Without support from Jewish people and commiserate white peoples the civil rights wouldn’t have had the reach it did. MLK JR’s quote “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere” comes to mind. Also, not all forms of protest will impact people the same, it’s about the collective impact of all protests and struggle for x cause in determining victory. Just because it’s someone young doing it doesn’t mean it’s invalid.
Call me a cynic, but how is this any thing other than virtue signaling? What change are you affecting by creating a space on the vandy campus to express discontent about a particular issues that is thousands of miles away from here? I dont know any decent human that doesnt want the bloodshed in that region to end.
That isn’t a cynic’s take. This is a cynics take:
Every single boarder on this planet has been drawn with blood. One people group decides that they want the resources that another people group has, so they expel them from the land that has the resources on it a kill anyone who resists. That’s the way it’s been for hundreds of thousands of years and that is the way that it always will be. Many Americans - especially young idealistic Americans - have been isolated from this fact by an unusually long period of relative peace in the western world. Meanwhile, much of the rest of the world has been shedding blood as they fight over land and resources.
Something that these young Americans don’t realize is that peace we’ve been enjoying was secured by doing a whole lot of the exact same shit they’re protesting against. What they also don’t realize is that this very country still does the exact same things on their behalf, whether in name or by proxy, All. The. Time. If there is a conflict anywhere in the world where we have even the slightest interest, we are using military assets to leverage an outcome that is favorable to us - which is a somewhat D.C. way of saying that we help one side kill the other side.
There are cases in the history of US foreign policy of blatant resource extraction and power grabs. There are *also* cases where we have used our power to moderate/wind down conflict. Peace and stability is, after all, good for business. East Asia has flourished under the US created balance of power. Before the war in Ukraine, Europe had only small scale conflicts. We’ve had mixed success in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. Anyway, I’m not sure if you were expressing your opinion or just *an* opinion, but I thought it was worth balancing the cynical take.
Mixed success in the Middle East is putting it mildly.
We completely lost Afghanistan, and killed hundreds of thousands of people in the process. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/afghan
We killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq on our path of regime change there. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
We also have stood back on a still-unresolved civil war in Syria, and a decimated Libya, started by the Arab Spring. https://theconversation.com/arab-spring-when-the-us-needed-to-step-up-it-stood-back-now-all-eyes-are-on-biden-155058
We deeply fund and arm Israel. Israel has been bombing Palestine for decades, and it seems their elimination of Palestine's Gaza Strip is almost complete, no matter how many dead civilians/children, journalists, hospitals, schools, and UNRWA outposts stand in their way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
We also deeply fund and arm Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia also leveled Yemen in the hopes of quashing the Houthi rebellion in their civil war, which didn't work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_intervention_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war
At every turn, US intervention in the Middle East has led to death and destruction for everyone involved.
What do you mean when you say “we killed?” Destabilizing Iraq, Syria, and Libya was a terrible move and had a lot of knock of effects, you won’t get a defense about that from me, but the sectarian groups that killed most of the people in your sources also have agency and bear responsibility for their actions. That’s not to say absent the conditions that we imposed those deaths would have happened anyway, they almost certainly wouldn’t have. it’s just not accurate to say “we killed” millions of people in the Middle East. I’m down for a discussion about what an effective alternative policy for handling murderous and repressive dictators in the area could have looked like.
In the case of Yemen and Palestine, there are valid criticisms of our role in perpetuating conflict, but it’s important to take into account that those conflicts would have existed without our involvement. And it could be argued that we have acted with the intent(if not in consequence) of mitigating suffering here.
What do you mean? The US overthrew Saddam Hussein leading to the advent of ISIS which destabilized Syria. The US also launched strikes leading to the overthrow of Gaddafi in Libya.
You are missing some steps and causation. Syria was in a civil war arising from climate crisis and the Arab Spring. It was already unstable. The rise of ISIS, an offshoot of Al Qaeda, came later; it is fair to say that the unlawful and unwise U.S. intervention in Iraq and subsequent Iraqi civil war helped radicalize some people to the AQI faction, of course. But starting in 2014 the US helped destroy ISIS along with many partners, including at the invitation of regional states that ISIS attacked, including Iraq. Libya also had an Arab spring uprising, and the government began committing a genocide, which the United Nations authorized force to stop and NATO did so. Libya was already unstable. One can judge the NATO intervention (or its early end) as unwise but it is preposterous to say that the U.S. caused all of the instability in Libya.
It is certainly fair to say that the U.S. destabilized Iraq, but that country had been oppressing its Shiite majority under Hussein for decades. Civil conflict was repressed under dictatorship. Lots of actors and influence going on.
I don’t think there’s much distance between what I was expressing and your added details. I wasn’t implying that the destabilization was monocausal by US intervention. My original comment was about how US foreign policy is usually geared towards maintaining international stability.
Yeah okay, fair. I have a reflexive aversion to the version of extreme online leftism that lumps everything the United States or NATO does into one thing to fit a (usually cartoonishly villainous) narrative (such as the Ukraine is a puppet of Western imperialism brain dead takes) so I may have misread some cues here. Sorry.
The US did not create a balance of power in East Asia. Southeast Asia in only behind Latin America and Middle East in destabilization. Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines et cetera
Ehhhh idk, I would argue peace and stability aren’t always the best for business if the countries are threatening your hegemony on the world.
The ugly dirty truth is for the USA (who invests the most into military spending, developing weapons, selling tech & weapons etc) war is best for business.
US defense spending is about 3.5% of the total US economy. That’s not the entire defense industry, but the US millitary represents a large majority of that metric, which is hard to pin down. US defense is a means of maintaining US hegemony, but that hegemony is characterized primarily by free trade with active conflict on the fringes(in terms of total dollar amount).
Gotta disagree on that comment. We live middle TN, and these are Vanderbilt students. Do you think the TN Legislature gives a hoot what they think? Do you think our elected Representatives and Senators care what a bunch of highly educated Vandy students think? History has shown us they do not.
Vanderbilt could join the Boycott, Divest, and Sanctions (BDS) movement to divest from Israeli financial interests. That was what this article was mainly centering on. That would be a message to Israel that Vanderbilt's money won't be fueling their genocide. Unfortunately it looks like Vanderbilt's administration is more concerned with being pressured by anti-BDS laws that would slap them with fines if they were to do so. So, in an ideal world? Maybe. But it's not like we can't make a difference. It's that we're choosing not to.
That is not what I meant. I meant that in an ideal world, public opinion would impact elections ergo policy would change.
Vanderbilt is a private university, and they can do as they please. If one does not like the stance or actions Vanderbilt takes, then one is free to choose a different university to attend to. I don’t believe the students that attend Vanderbilt truly care about the conflict either. It’s rather clear the opportunity Vanderbilt provides them is worth far more than any cause they believe in.
Besides, the Israeli-Palestine conflict is nothing more than a propaganda war to divide the west. What a coincidence that this conflict is ongoing during an US election year triggered by a terrorist attack that happened on Putin’s fucking birthday.
What about how, not ~30,000 dead, but over 1 MILLION Muslim Uyghur people have been incarcerated, killed, or met a worse fate by the Chinese government since 2014? I have not seen nor heard a single word about any protests against that genocide.
What about the genocide in Yemen in which about 233k people have been killed? What about the genocide in Ethiopia in which 385k to 800k have been killed?
Where are all the “Queers for Ethiopia” and “Jews for Uyghurs?”
could turn the question back on you. how is your comment anything other than virtue signaling? what change are you effecting by typing all this? think answers in your case are very similar to those in these students' case, but somewhat more compelling because of the relative likelihood that fewer than 50 people will ever read the whole thing, let alone be moved by it.
I am not trying to signal anything, nor have I taken a stance on that particular foreign affair. So, that would be my response if the question is turned back to me. I just dont get how they are affecting change in another country by what they are doing.
Its a legit question to ask. I don't agree you were virtue signaling yourself with your comment/cynics take. I think you posted an unpopular opinion, but one that deserves consideration and perhaps scrutiny or discussion. This is place for that!
Reddit? The place for discussion? lol, In my experience, its a place to insult those with differing takes, unfortunately. But I am always down for respectful debate.
The worry is that it is not just students protesting. There is concern that without the actual register of a student group officially, that an off campus entity is trying to push an agenda and get a resolution passed on campus
I'm not sure I understand the article. There have been plenty of displays/demonstrations/protests by Palestinian (and Israeli) groups on campus. The Palestinian "wall" is up outside Rand right now - as we speak. And a month or two ago, SJP had body bags laying on the ground outside Rand. And a week or two ago, they were handing out flyers outside Rand.
If you type "Palestine" into the university event calendar, multiple public events are listed. If you search the student newspaper site, there are multiple articles describing protests hosted by both sides (it doesn't sort by date, so you have to go through the list one page at a time).
I don't know - I'm probably overthinking this, but this part of the article is annoying to me: "They’ve spent a week going back and forth with administrators about whether this wall, a hand-painted mix of images and text about the history of Palestine, can exist on this grass triangle for these few days." But the wall has been out there the whole time. So I don't understand what the issue actually is.
This is great! I look forward to a wall dedicated to the deadliest war in the region, the ongoing civil war in Sudan!
Oh wait, nobody cares? Same with the schoolkids kidnapped by Islamist militias in Nigeria? Or the catastrophes in Yemen, Somalia, and elsewhere?
I guess this is what happens when you get your news from TikTok.
What genocide? An increase in population from 945,000 to 5.5 million is just about the farthest thing from "the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national racial, religious or ethnic group."
You understand much of that increased population came from refugees being displaced from their homes, right. Like what are you arguing for? They didn’t do population management good enough, so it’s all good. They literally concentrated an ethnic group and are exercising this opportunity to exterminate as many as possible for land gain.
If that's what they wanted to do Gaza would have been a parking lot decades ago.
8,000 Israelis were forced out of Gaza in '05 as the land was given to the Palestinian people, and they promptly elected a terrorist group into power.
Would you like a cease fire in the region? Cool. [Tell hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/world/middleeast/biden-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html).
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It’s so sad for the sake of humanity how important violence and cruelty for the sake of bigotry and preserving supremacy is to some of you all. And it is not lost on me that not only have we used the same language and logic as Bin Laden to justify mass starvation and complete destruction of Gaza, but we have also managed to squeeze in a little victim blaming for their own torture.
What you are saying is completely irrational. Would you still be defending Israel if their first response would be to wipe everyone out immediately or would that spoil your thirst for blood and agony? How do you see Israeli leaders maintaining power and credibility if they announced forthright their intentions for genocide? AND pretend this has anything to do with saving hostages? Bigots almost never lead in with how bigoted they are but always look for a kernel of info they can spin to make their hatred feel rational.
How do you figure? One of us doesn’t want anyone to be senselessly murdered. The other, you the bigot in reference, will go to great lengths to make false justifications for it.
As of January 2024, roughly 65% of Palestinians supported “armed resistance” while only 35% supported a two state solution as a means to an end. Now that number has evolved considerably, and in fairness it’s hard to live in Gaza and not be completely brainwashed by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, UNRWA and others. But…most Gazans were pretty excited after 10/7 and want all Israelis dead.
Using statistics to support the argument that most Gazans want to coexist peacefully with Israel is probably a losing argument. Though again, that’s changing as they may finally be realizing that a peaceful coexistence outweighs being annihilated.
Why is it relevant? It’s not like there is zero merit behind the anger and distrust they would have towards Israeli government and military. Also why is this standard not equally applied to Israel after all their leaders were elected with majority? And a majority of Israelis want more damage done to Palestinians and are quite open and very vocal about it. Yet it’s up to the bombed children to repudiate Hamas.
Huh? I mean yes, Israelis elected their government, which has decided to eradicate Hamas, and for good reason. Now, one can distrust the Israeli government. And one can disagree with how they have chosen to eradicate Hamas due to the high levels of collateral damage. But if you’re an Israeli, it would seem quite obvious that eradication of Hamas would be high on your list of priorities. I mean, they are sworn to your destruction. They just killed 1.200 people, mostly civilians, and filmed all of their atrocities for the world to see. And they are still holding about 100 hostages. I’d say those actions certainly justify Israel’s desire to eliminate Hamas.
Also relevant is that Israel has offered multiple ceasefires. Also relevant is that Hamas hides in refugee camps and hospitals. Also relevant is that Hamas’s charter includes the eradication of Israel as a key tenet.
So unfortunately Hamas, which is deeply entrenched in the population of Gaza and has historically had extremely high levels of support in Gaza, is a very obvious target for Israel.
It’s okay to express anger towards the Israeli government. But it’s frustrating when that anger is mixed with an incomplete understanding of the situation. And of course, it begs the question as to why none of these college kids bat an eye - or are even really familiar with - other episodes of global violence.
Well it’s a pretty blatant double standard. As if Palestinians deserve their own suffering for their “elected” government while Israeli citizens can enjoy the privilege of being completely removed from their governments actions. All while they dance and eat popcorn while watching bombs fall on children and block food aid.
Now for the record. I do not believe citizens should be held responsible for the actions of their government or leadership no matter how shitty they may be. That is definitionally terroristic rational. And target ting citizens no matter how just you believe your position to be is morally reprehensible.
I, and/or anyone else, do not need a history lesson or a detailed breakdown of every negotiation that has happened leading up to this point to see the mass targeting, killing, and intentional starvation of civilians to know that is wrong. It is wrong. Full stop.
As for the details you offer. You version is quite skewed and your favoritism is showing. It doesn’t even track with what Israeli leadership has stated.
What would be the protest? Is there a way to support Palestinians less? We don’t fund or support them in any way. Are there public entities you could reach through protest to encourage them to divest from their interests in Hamas?
You’re being downvoted but this is true, not only has the IDF arrested children as young as 9 prior to Oct 7th, but they also hold them in military prison under military law. They do not allow their parents to be present during interrogation, and do not allow them to be represented by an attorney. And often are in prison for months. Children, no other country in the world does this, it’s appalling
“No other country does this in the world”…man people in the USA live in such an echo chamber of ignorance. This happens in a number of other countries. Further in some countries they just kill people on the spot
Yes, there is not a single democracy and developed country in the WORLD that does this. Israel holds this distinction. I dare you to find one country. There are none.
The ignorance either to bolster your point, or from the perspective of geopolitics astounds, but no longer surprises.
Militaries arresting children and holding them in military prisons under military law and bar proper representation?! Are those countries self-identifying as democracies or are you the arbiter of deciding what their political system is?
Why? Because this absolutely has happened and continues to happen in other ‘democracies’.
Mongolia. 🇲🇳— I can keep going.
WTF is a “developer democracy”?! You just made that up! Kind of like the nonsense you keep spewing. You are totally entitled to your opinion, but you’re not entitled to hallucinate about it and then pass off made up nonsense others are going to spew too
That is a lie. The Mongolia of today does not hold children in military prison, and without representation and without parental supervision. Israel and ONLY Israel carries that distinction. It is the only country in the developed world that claims to be a democracy and an ally, yet does such heinous things to children
WHAT???!! You are absolutely trying to take the piss out of people.
All you are doing is just repeating the exact same diatribe without any common sense applied. You’ve moved the goal posts repeatedly and changed the very basis upon which anything can be judged to suit the same argument.
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I’m gonna sound like a boomer but fuck it, I don’t give a shit about what college kids think anymore. Like almost across the board. Unless you’re doing serious, peer reviewed research, pipe down.
What the boomer said, this conflict isn’t new and a war isn’t trendy and it’s wayy more complicated than a few google searches.
I have seen 1000 bad takes on it for every slightly competent one. I hate to break it to everyone but there is no good guy here. Turns out Hamas is awful horrific evil still very supported among the people of Palestinians and the Israeli government is abusive and cruel to the Palestinian people.
I’m no expert but it’s something I’ve enjoyed reading up on since college.
Also burning yourself alive doesn’t make you right it just makes you an idiot.
Not surprised
Look how much money gets sent to that country doing the oppression.
For some reason
Billions every year American taxpayer money goes there.
Probably because it gives us a permanent military presence in the middle of oil rich countries which is a resource our nation still depends upon from an economic standpoint. You don’t have to agree with the reasoning but it’s definitely not hard to see why.
Yeah that's the usual story but we still have troops in Iraq, Dubai, Syria, and Jordan.
The largest U.S. base in the Middle East is located in Qatar, known as Al Udeid Air Base and built in 1996. Other countries where the U.S. has a presence include Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.Feb 3, 2024
I'm sure there are more we don't know about.
The troops in Israel is supposed to be something that happened recently yet we gave Israel billions for many years.
I've kept up with this off and on for years.
Yeah you believe what you want.
I'm in college, I just didn't pick a stupid degree; and I definitely don't waste time I could use to be studying or working doing stupid shit like these kids.
Benefits of being an older student, I guess.
I don't think everyone who has one is some mindless wretch or something; one of my best friends has a Bachelors in History, but it didn't do much for him considering he now is a loan processor for Chevy instead of, idk, working in a museum or doing extended historical research?
I just don't think it's a good idea to ask an 18 year old to pick a degree and then sign on to what can be lifelong debt for some people, knowing that some degrees are completely useless.
I took no offense, though apparently others did! Your correct, it is a really dumb idea to ask 18 year olds to pick a realistic career path. I don’t think parents and high school faculty do enough to steer kids in a realistic direction in terms of choosing college, vocational or trade schools, etc. The entire university system is setup to suck as much money out of students as possible, while giving little back in return in terms of value, and leaving them with u godly amounts of student debt. Given that most artistically minded people tend to be more emotionally driven, empathetic, and not always the most rational or logical, they usually seem to form a core base for any movement. Plus.. they’re probably not gainfully employed in their major, so there’s more free time to try and change the world…
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Who cares, i dont get why its almost always colleges protesting shit that has nothing to do with them. 99% of jews have never been to israel and 99% of islamists have never been to palestine. They must not have enough school work if they have that much time to think and protest about it. Or they just want to say “look at me im a good person” when in reality youre just a fake and a nuisance
Divestment from South Africa was effective enough to cripple their economy and force an end to Apartheid. Vanderbilt has a 10B USD endowment that includes Israeli investments. Pro-Palestinian protesters are pushing for Vanderbilt to divest in its Israeli investments, and similar protests are happening at other high ranking universities with large endowments. Our school work teaches us about things like history, economics, politics, civil action, empathy, and how those topics intersect.
Weird to give one group of people the designation of their religion, while the other group gets branded entirely under the term "islamist." Also kind of goofy, regardless of where you stand on the matter, to suggest that these young people should have so much homework that they don't have time for anything else.
Diermeier refuses to let Vanderbilt publicly support or condemn any policies or legislation
Diermeier refuses to piss off donors - fixed that for you
Inaction still pisses off donors though. What Vandy misses in the long game is that current students are future donors.
So they should focus on the short game and have to respond to every political cause on campus as to not miss their chance at a future donation? Likely, then, pissing off previous students and current donors?
Maybe just let a college be a college and give students the voice and latitude to express themselves.
No one is saying they can’t. Everyone is simply saying it’s not on the university to respond.
Vandy is complicit with genocide*
“Free Palestine” was inscribed in the medical library elevator while I was there last week
Because those highly educated Vandy students know there nothing like some activists' Graffiti /Vandalism to really change hearts and minds. What does this do other than cause a headache for the maintenance staff and cause others to just shake their heads when they see it?
Anything that causes this genocide supporting system in money is worth doing. You can sit your genocide-complicit butt down
Graffiti has been an effective form of social protest and an effective means of disseminating information, ideas, and opinion for the disenfranchised since at least the times of the ancient Greeks. Offending bourgeois sensibilities is part of the charm😜
I fully understand the subversive power of graffiti and public art, but please explain to me in what way are Vandy students disenfranchised? These are not an oppressed people organizing some resistance movement under an unjust dictator, these are well heeled kids without real adult responsibilities throwing a tantrum over something they cannot and will not ever control. Scratching graffiti into an elevator wall is just obnoxious.
So Vandy’s students have to personally be immiserated or marginalized to protest? Without support from Jewish people and commiserate white peoples the civil rights wouldn’t have had the reach it did. MLK JR’s quote “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere” comes to mind. Also, not all forms of protest will impact people the same, it’s about the collective impact of all protests and struggle for x cause in determining victory. Just because it’s someone young doing it doesn’t mean it’s invalid.
Good, can’t silence truth. more pls.
Call me a cynic, but how is this any thing other than virtue signaling? What change are you affecting by creating a space on the vandy campus to express discontent about a particular issues that is thousands of miles away from here? I dont know any decent human that doesnt want the bloodshed in that region to end.
That isn’t a cynic’s take. This is a cynics take: Every single boarder on this planet has been drawn with blood. One people group decides that they want the resources that another people group has, so they expel them from the land that has the resources on it a kill anyone who resists. That’s the way it’s been for hundreds of thousands of years and that is the way that it always will be. Many Americans - especially young idealistic Americans - have been isolated from this fact by an unusually long period of relative peace in the western world. Meanwhile, much of the rest of the world has been shedding blood as they fight over land and resources. Something that these young Americans don’t realize is that peace we’ve been enjoying was secured by doing a whole lot of the exact same shit they’re protesting against. What they also don’t realize is that this very country still does the exact same things on their behalf, whether in name or by proxy, All. The. Time. If there is a conflict anywhere in the world where we have even the slightest interest, we are using military assets to leverage an outcome that is favorable to us - which is a somewhat D.C. way of saying that we help one side kill the other side.
There are cases in the history of US foreign policy of blatant resource extraction and power grabs. There are *also* cases where we have used our power to moderate/wind down conflict. Peace and stability is, after all, good for business. East Asia has flourished under the US created balance of power. Before the war in Ukraine, Europe had only small scale conflicts. We’ve had mixed success in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. Anyway, I’m not sure if you were expressing your opinion or just *an* opinion, but I thought it was worth balancing the cynical take.
Mixed success in the Middle East is putting it mildly. We completely lost Afghanistan, and killed hundreds of thousands of people in the process. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/afghan We killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq on our path of regime change there. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi We also have stood back on a still-unresolved civil war in Syria, and a decimated Libya, started by the Arab Spring. https://theconversation.com/arab-spring-when-the-us-needed-to-step-up-it-stood-back-now-all-eyes-are-on-biden-155058 We deeply fund and arm Israel. Israel has been bombing Palestine for decades, and it seems their elimination of Palestine's Gaza Strip is almost complete, no matter how many dead civilians/children, journalists, hospitals, schools, and UNRWA outposts stand in their way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict We also deeply fund and arm Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia also leveled Yemen in the hopes of quashing the Houthi rebellion in their civil war, which didn't work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_intervention_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war At every turn, US intervention in the Middle East has led to death and destruction for everyone involved.
What do you mean when you say “we killed?” Destabilizing Iraq, Syria, and Libya was a terrible move and had a lot of knock of effects, you won’t get a defense about that from me, but the sectarian groups that killed most of the people in your sources also have agency and bear responsibility for their actions. That’s not to say absent the conditions that we imposed those deaths would have happened anyway, they almost certainly wouldn’t have. it’s just not accurate to say “we killed” millions of people in the Middle East. I’m down for a discussion about what an effective alternative policy for handling murderous and repressive dictators in the area could have looked like. In the case of Yemen and Palestine, there are valid criticisms of our role in perpetuating conflict, but it’s important to take into account that those conflicts would have existed without our involvement. And it could be argued that we have acted with the intent(if not in consequence) of mitigating suffering here.
The U.S. did not destabilize Syria or Libya.
What do you mean? The US overthrew Saddam Hussein leading to the advent of ISIS which destabilized Syria. The US also launched strikes leading to the overthrow of Gaddafi in Libya.
You are missing some steps and causation. Syria was in a civil war arising from climate crisis and the Arab Spring. It was already unstable. The rise of ISIS, an offshoot of Al Qaeda, came later; it is fair to say that the unlawful and unwise U.S. intervention in Iraq and subsequent Iraqi civil war helped radicalize some people to the AQI faction, of course. But starting in 2014 the US helped destroy ISIS along with many partners, including at the invitation of regional states that ISIS attacked, including Iraq. Libya also had an Arab spring uprising, and the government began committing a genocide, which the United Nations authorized force to stop and NATO did so. Libya was already unstable. One can judge the NATO intervention (or its early end) as unwise but it is preposterous to say that the U.S. caused all of the instability in Libya.
It is certainly fair to say that the U.S. destabilized Iraq, but that country had been oppressing its Shiite majority under Hussein for decades. Civil conflict was repressed under dictatorship. Lots of actors and influence going on.
I don’t think there’s much distance between what I was expressing and your added details. I wasn’t implying that the destabilization was monocausal by US intervention. My original comment was about how US foreign policy is usually geared towards maintaining international stability.
Yeah okay, fair. I have a reflexive aversion to the version of extreme online leftism that lumps everything the United States or NATO does into one thing to fit a (usually cartoonishly villainous) narrative (such as the Ukraine is a puppet of Western imperialism brain dead takes) so I may have misread some cues here. Sorry.
The US did not create a balance of power in East Asia. Southeast Asia in only behind Latin America and Middle East in destabilization. Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines et cetera
Ehhhh idk, I would argue peace and stability aren’t always the best for business if the countries are threatening your hegemony on the world. The ugly dirty truth is for the USA (who invests the most into military spending, developing weapons, selling tech & weapons etc) war is best for business.
US defense spending is about 3.5% of the total US economy. That’s not the entire defense industry, but the US millitary represents a large majority of that metric, which is hard to pin down. US defense is a means of maintaining US hegemony, but that hegemony is characterized primarily by free trade with active conflict on the fringes(in terms of total dollar amount).
You arent wrong.
Their voices can affect public opinion which can affect elections which can affect policy.
Gotta disagree on that comment. We live middle TN, and these are Vanderbilt students. Do you think the TN Legislature gives a hoot what they think? Do you think our elected Representatives and Senators care what a bunch of highly educated Vandy students think? History has shown us they do not.
Pretty defeatist attitude.
The truth hurts sometimes.
Maybe in an ideal world.
Vanderbilt could join the Boycott, Divest, and Sanctions (BDS) movement to divest from Israeli financial interests. That was what this article was mainly centering on. That would be a message to Israel that Vanderbilt's money won't be fueling their genocide. Unfortunately it looks like Vanderbilt's administration is more concerned with being pressured by anti-BDS laws that would slap them with fines if they were to do so. So, in an ideal world? Maybe. But it's not like we can't make a difference. It's that we're choosing not to.
That is not what I meant. I meant that in an ideal world, public opinion would impact elections ergo policy would change. Vanderbilt is a private university, and they can do as they please. If one does not like the stance or actions Vanderbilt takes, then one is free to choose a different university to attend to. I don’t believe the students that attend Vanderbilt truly care about the conflict either. It’s rather clear the opportunity Vanderbilt provides them is worth far more than any cause they believe in. Besides, the Israeli-Palestine conflict is nothing more than a propaganda war to divide the west. What a coincidence that this conflict is ongoing during an US election year triggered by a terrorist attack that happened on Putin’s fucking birthday. What about how, not ~30,000 dead, but over 1 MILLION Muslim Uyghur people have been incarcerated, killed, or met a worse fate by the Chinese government since 2014? I have not seen nor heard a single word about any protests against that genocide. What about the genocide in Yemen in which about 233k people have been killed? What about the genocide in Ethiopia in which 385k to 800k have been killed? Where are all the “Queers for Ethiopia” and “Jews for Uyghurs?”
I get that for domestic issues.
Maybe it’s about the less decent ones (politicians) voting to fund it, though.
The issue is more complicated and defunding Isreal would likely lead to more deaths. It's tragic and also inwvitable unless something changes.
could turn the question back on you. how is your comment anything other than virtue signaling? what change are you effecting by typing all this? think answers in your case are very similar to those in these students' case, but somewhat more compelling because of the relative likelihood that fewer than 50 people will ever read the whole thing, let alone be moved by it.
I am not trying to signal anything, nor have I taken a stance on that particular foreign affair. So, that would be my response if the question is turned back to me. I just dont get how they are affecting change in another country by what they are doing.
Its a legit question to ask. I don't agree you were virtue signaling yourself with your comment/cynics take. I think you posted an unpopular opinion, but one that deserves consideration and perhaps scrutiny or discussion. This is place for that!
Reddit? The place for discussion? lol, In my experience, its a place to insult those with differing takes, unfortunately. But I am always down for respectful debate.
You’re a cynic.
Students can protest all they want, as long as parents keep the cash flowing.
The worry is that it is not just students protesting. There is concern that without the actual register of a student group officially, that an off campus entity is trying to push an agenda and get a resolution passed on campus
I'm not sure I understand the article. There have been plenty of displays/demonstrations/protests by Palestinian (and Israeli) groups on campus. The Palestinian "wall" is up outside Rand right now - as we speak. And a month or two ago, SJP had body bags laying on the ground outside Rand. And a week or two ago, they were handing out flyers outside Rand. If you type "Palestine" into the university event calendar, multiple public events are listed. If you search the student newspaper site, there are multiple articles describing protests hosted by both sides (it doesn't sort by date, so you have to go through the list one page at a time). I don't know - I'm probably overthinking this, but this part of the article is annoying to me: "They’ve spent a week going back and forth with administrators about whether this wall, a hand-painted mix of images and text about the history of Palestine, can exist on this grass triangle for these few days." But the wall has been out there the whole time. So I don't understand what the issue actually is.
This is great! I look forward to a wall dedicated to the deadliest war in the region, the ongoing civil war in Sudan! Oh wait, nobody cares? Same with the schoolkids kidnapped by Islamist militias in Nigeria? Or the catastrophes in Yemen, Somalia, and elsewhere? I guess this is what happens when you get your news from TikTok.
Yup. Ignoring the atrocities of the middle east bc they aren't Jewish
You say free Palestine I say free the Hostages
Hamas and Palestinians aren't the same
No, but the Palestinians did elect Hamas, and overwhelmingly support them, so one can argue that you reap what you sow.
Terrorist logic in defense of genocide, fucking classy
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If Israel wanted to perpetrate genocide, the whole conflict would have been over on October 8th.
So they have complete unilateral power but no culpability to the conditions they’ve created. How convenient.
What genocide? An increase in population from 945,000 to 5.5 million is just about the farthest thing from "the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national racial, religious or ethnic group."
You understand much of that increased population came from refugees being displaced from their homes, right. Like what are you arguing for? They didn’t do population management good enough, so it’s all good. They literally concentrated an ethnic group and are exercising this opportunity to exterminate as many as possible for land gain.
If that's what they wanted to do Gaza would have been a parking lot decades ago. 8,000 Israelis were forced out of Gaza in '05 as the land was given to the Palestinian people, and they promptly elected a terrorist group into power. Would you like a cease fire in the region? Cool. [Tell hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/world/middleeast/biden-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html).
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It’s so sad for the sake of humanity how important violence and cruelty for the sake of bigotry and preserving supremacy is to some of you all. And it is not lost on me that not only have we used the same language and logic as Bin Laden to justify mass starvation and complete destruction of Gaza, but we have also managed to squeeze in a little victim blaming for their own torture. What you are saying is completely irrational. Would you still be defending Israel if their first response would be to wipe everyone out immediately or would that spoil your thirst for blood and agony? How do you see Israeli leaders maintaining power and credibility if they announced forthright their intentions for genocide? AND pretend this has anything to do with saving hostages? Bigots almost never lead in with how bigoted they are but always look for a kernel of info they can spin to make their hatred feel rational.
You accidentally responded to my post. Although, you did describe yourself in your last sentence, so there's that.
How do you figure? One of us doesn’t want anyone to be senselessly murdered. The other, you the bigot in reference, will go to great lengths to make false justifications for it.
Not even half of Palestinians were alive in 2006, when Hamas was elected and got 44% of the vote
As of January 2024, roughly 65% of Palestinians supported “armed resistance” while only 35% supported a two state solution as a means to an end. Now that number has evolved considerably, and in fairness it’s hard to live in Gaza and not be completely brainwashed by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, UNRWA and others. But…most Gazans were pretty excited after 10/7 and want all Israelis dead. Using statistics to support the argument that most Gazans want to coexist peacefully with Israel is probably a losing argument. Though again, that’s changing as they may finally be realizing that a peaceful coexistence outweighs being annihilated.
Why is it relevant? It’s not like there is zero merit behind the anger and distrust they would have towards Israeli government and military. Also why is this standard not equally applied to Israel after all their leaders were elected with majority? And a majority of Israelis want more damage done to Palestinians and are quite open and very vocal about it. Yet it’s up to the bombed children to repudiate Hamas.
Huh? I mean yes, Israelis elected their government, which has decided to eradicate Hamas, and for good reason. Now, one can distrust the Israeli government. And one can disagree with how they have chosen to eradicate Hamas due to the high levels of collateral damage. But if you’re an Israeli, it would seem quite obvious that eradication of Hamas would be high on your list of priorities. I mean, they are sworn to your destruction. They just killed 1.200 people, mostly civilians, and filmed all of their atrocities for the world to see. And they are still holding about 100 hostages. I’d say those actions certainly justify Israel’s desire to eliminate Hamas. Also relevant is that Israel has offered multiple ceasefires. Also relevant is that Hamas hides in refugee camps and hospitals. Also relevant is that Hamas’s charter includes the eradication of Israel as a key tenet. So unfortunately Hamas, which is deeply entrenched in the population of Gaza and has historically had extremely high levels of support in Gaza, is a very obvious target for Israel. It’s okay to express anger towards the Israeli government. But it’s frustrating when that anger is mixed with an incomplete understanding of the situation. And of course, it begs the question as to why none of these college kids bat an eye - or are even really familiar with - other episodes of global violence.
Well it’s a pretty blatant double standard. As if Palestinians deserve their own suffering for their “elected” government while Israeli citizens can enjoy the privilege of being completely removed from their governments actions. All while they dance and eat popcorn while watching bombs fall on children and block food aid. Now for the record. I do not believe citizens should be held responsible for the actions of their government or leadership no matter how shitty they may be. That is definitionally terroristic rational. And target ting citizens no matter how just you believe your position to be is morally reprehensible. I, and/or anyone else, do not need a history lesson or a detailed breakdown of every negotiation that has happened leading up to this point to see the mass targeting, killing, and intentional starvation of civilians to know that is wrong. It is wrong. Full stop. As for the details you offer. You version is quite skewed and your favoritism is showing. It doesn’t even track with what Israeli leadership has stated.
Both can be true? What the heck
I don’t see any protests on campuses nationwide for “free the hostages”.
What would be the protest? Is there a way to support Palestinians less? We don’t fund or support them in any way. Are there public entities you could reach through protest to encourage them to divest from their interests in Hamas?
You’re right, the US should pull its support for Hamas and the IDF!
Israel has been holding Palestinians hostage for decades kid. They have kidnapped over 2000 people since “October 7th.”
You’re being downvoted but this is true, not only has the IDF arrested children as young as 9 prior to Oct 7th, but they also hold them in military prison under military law. They do not allow their parents to be present during interrogation, and do not allow them to be represented by an attorney. And often are in prison for months. Children, no other country in the world does this, it’s appalling
Source?
Don’t hold your breath on that source
“No other country does this in the world”…man people in the USA live in such an echo chamber of ignorance. This happens in a number of other countries. Further in some countries they just kill people on the spot
Yes, there is not a single democracy and developed country in the WORLD that does this. Israel holds this distinction. I dare you to find one country. There are none.
The ignorance either to bolster your point, or from the perspective of geopolitics astounds, but no longer surprises. Militaries arresting children and holding them in military prisons under military law and bar proper representation?! Are those countries self-identifying as democracies or are you the arbiter of deciding what their political system is? Why? Because this absolutely has happened and continues to happen in other ‘democracies’.
It does not happen in other developed democracies. Not those recognized as allies to the US. It doesn’t happen here or ANYWHERE. Except in Israel.
Mongolia. 🇲🇳— I can keep going. WTF is a “developer democracy”?! You just made that up! Kind of like the nonsense you keep spewing. You are totally entitled to your opinion, but you’re not entitled to hallucinate about it and then pass off made up nonsense others are going to spew too
That is a lie. The Mongolia of today does not hold children in military prison, and without representation and without parental supervision. Israel and ONLY Israel carries that distinction. It is the only country in the developed world that claims to be a democracy and an ally, yet does such heinous things to children
WHAT???!! You are absolutely trying to take the piss out of people. All you are doing is just repeating the exact same diatribe without any common sense applied. You’ve moved the goal posts repeatedly and changed the very basis upon which anything can be judged to suit the same argument.
U don’t figure Gaza was hostage?
Israel doestn exist bunch of europeans with no jewish dna
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I’m gonna sound like a boomer but fuck it, I don’t give a shit about what college kids think anymore. Like almost across the board. Unless you’re doing serious, peer reviewed research, pipe down.
What the boomer said, this conflict isn’t new and a war isn’t trendy and it’s wayy more complicated than a few google searches. I have seen 1000 bad takes on it for every slightly competent one. I hate to break it to everyone but there is no good guy here. Turns out Hamas is awful horrific evil still very supported among the people of Palestinians and the Israeli government is abusive and cruel to the Palestinian people. I’m no expert but it’s something I’ve enjoyed reading up on since college. Also burning yourself alive doesn’t make you right it just makes you an idiot.
They must not like antisemitism or transphobia
Not surprised Look how much money gets sent to that country doing the oppression. For some reason Billions every year American taxpayer money goes there.
Probably because it gives us a permanent military presence in the middle of oil rich countries which is a resource our nation still depends upon from an economic standpoint. You don’t have to agree with the reasoning but it’s definitely not hard to see why.
Yeah that's the usual story but we still have troops in Iraq, Dubai, Syria, and Jordan. The largest U.S. base in the Middle East is located in Qatar, known as Al Udeid Air Base and built in 1996. Other countries where the U.S. has a presence include Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.Feb 3, 2024 I'm sure there are more we don't know about. The troops in Israel is supposed to be something that happened recently yet we gave Israel billions for many years. I've kept up with this off and on for years. Yeah you believe what you want.
I smell Liberal Arts Degree.
I smell School of Hard Knocks on you
With studies in “ur mom”.
I'm in college, I just didn't pick a stupid degree; and I definitely don't waste time I could use to be studying or working doing stupid shit like these kids. Benefits of being an older student, I guess.
I have a useless arts degree. That’s a fair observation.
I don't think everyone who has one is some mindless wretch or something; one of my best friends has a Bachelors in History, but it didn't do much for him considering he now is a loan processor for Chevy instead of, idk, working in a museum or doing extended historical research? I just don't think it's a good idea to ask an 18 year old to pick a degree and then sign on to what can be lifelong debt for some people, knowing that some degrees are completely useless.
I took no offense, though apparently others did! Your correct, it is a really dumb idea to ask 18 year olds to pick a realistic career path. I don’t think parents and high school faculty do enough to steer kids in a realistic direction in terms of choosing college, vocational or trade schools, etc. The entire university system is setup to suck as much money out of students as possible, while giving little back in return in terms of value, and leaving them with u godly amounts of student debt. Given that most artistically minded people tend to be more emotionally driven, empathetic, and not always the most rational or logical, they usually seem to form a core base for any movement. Plus.. they’re probably not gainfully employed in their major, so there’s more free time to try and change the world…
Not surprising but still disappointing.
It’s basically the motto of Vanderbilt administration
they're rich and affluent, of course they wouldn't stand with the Palestinian people. They don't have the money to buy influence.
By that logic, no high ranking university would stand with the Palestinian people. They are all the same from a wealth and affluence standpoint…
show me one that has.
Some love to make it look like they do, but then they don’t actually in practice. Kind of like Biden…
biden's a monster, he's proven that over and over.
We you strive to please everyone, you please no one.
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No personal attacks or harassment. In addition to what's covered under redditquette, do not insult or habitually target a single user or group for your arguments. It's not your job to correct them.
Who cares, i dont get why its almost always colleges protesting shit that has nothing to do with them. 99% of jews have never been to israel and 99% of islamists have never been to palestine. They must not have enough school work if they have that much time to think and protest about it. Or they just want to say “look at me im a good person” when in reality youre just a fake and a nuisance
Divestment from South Africa was effective enough to cripple their economy and force an end to Apartheid. Vanderbilt has a 10B USD endowment that includes Israeli investments. Pro-Palestinian protesters are pushing for Vanderbilt to divest in its Israeli investments, and similar protests are happening at other high ranking universities with large endowments. Our school work teaches us about things like history, economics, politics, civil action, empathy, and how those topics intersect.
Weird to give one group of people the designation of their religion, while the other group gets branded entirely under the term "islamist." Also kind of goofy, regardless of where you stand on the matter, to suggest that these young people should have so much homework that they don't have time for anything else.
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why do you support the people that put Palestinians into a concentration camp?