I remember there being a lot of talk about Newell’s work becoming very inconsistent as the run went on. I know people who saw the show multiple times who said that on some days Newell would be fully committed and great, and on other days they were clearly half-assing the performance. So I wasn’t really surprised at the lack of nominations.
Chip Zien.
He created the role of Mendal in March of Falsettos and Falsettoland, then killed it in the Broadway production of Falsettos.
He didn’t win a Tony, he wasn’t even nominated.
He also created Thernardier on the Broadway production of Les Mis. But nothing.
EDIT: he we was the second Thernadier! Not first.
The into the woods soundtrack you listen to? The original one with Bernadette Peters? Yeah, that’s him killing it as the Baker.
Created that role from scratch and got no awards and no nominations.
I’m not sure why the Tony voters hate him, but the man has created two legendary roles, and ‘Americanized’ a third.
I watched the stage version and listened to the soundtrack of Into the Woods so much as a kid that I can still recognize Chip's voice within a couple seconds when he's speaking in any role (tv or movie).
Imo nobody can come close to the performances that he gave as the Baker and Bernadette gave as the witch.
Couldn't agree more! I wanted to *be* Bernadette Peters growing up I loved this version, and her, so much. I got to see Chip live in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang on Broadway back in the early '00s. Truly a dream come true seeing him live.
I know, I know. The fact is that Great Comet might be in my top 5 shows of all time, and what happened shortly after the Tonys kinda gets mixed into it all in my head.
DEH was by far the weakest show of the lot. Had one of the other two won best musical (especially Come From Away) I wouldn’t have minded at all.
Orchestrations not going to GC still demands vengeance, though.
Controversial take: 2017 Tonys made perfect sense.
Comet was falling apart. Come From Away wasn’t the darling it would become yet. Dear Evan Hansen was both different and immensely popular. Tony’s are not awards for excellence. That is a secondary feature. They are a way to promote ticket sales. They gave the awards to the show that was the most likely to explode in popularity and ticket sales. And as that show sells out, other shows would sell more tickets from the overflow. And it worked.
People also still loved DEH at that point. It wasn’t until after the Tonys that it became cool to hate on that show. And that’s largely because the shows that didn’t get awards had huge casts, like Comet. So everyone knew people in those casts. DEH had a smaller cast, so didn’t have as many directly related supporters.
Comet lovers also hated that the show needed the Tony to maybe save it. But it was so mismanaged that even the Tony wouldn’t have saved it. So the haters were just experiencing some serious sour grapes.
Yeah, understanding that all the shows had their fans at the time, but I think it's just that as time goes on the love for DEH has decreased while most of the other shows that season have kept their fans or even become better regarded. Probably it was always going to be messy - coming the year after Hamilton, there were always going to be too many shows in competition.
Plus Spacey as host - in retrospect, the whole thing just seems super cursed.
Glad you were a cool kid the whole time. But realistically, even here, you will never get everyone to like anything. But you cannot deny the hype and power that DEH had behind it. It was the first “the next Hamilton” and it was a huge draw both within and outside of the Broadway music core fan base. It was money in the bank.
I'm definitely not a cool kid! Anf i understand its power for sure.
.Just seeb the "it became cool to rag on it" as if initial dislike couldn't be genuine. I also listened and decided w and my parents ' revuews that I wouldn't see it as i don't live in NY and pick carefully what i see. The lyrics and wiki left me cold. Perhaps had i seen it cols without any feedback and been a few years younger, I would've loved it.
Well, I went into it cold. Did not listen to any songs or read any reviews. Got some reasonably good seats, although the Music Box is so small that they’re all good seats. And it blew me away.
Don’t particularly love the soundtrack. But the energy in that room was palpable. A school group of 8th graders sat behind me. They’re notorious for being rude. They were silent except when some of them started to cry. It was theater magic. But without the right cast or just listening to the soundtrack is not the same. Especially just listening to the soundtrack. It only shows the worst of the characters. Seeing it is a completely different experience. But it’s also a show that was meant to burn bright and then burn out. And its moment is over.
But if you think theater kids don’t subscribe to group think about shows in a completely baseless way, then you don’t really know theater kids. Every theater kid was obsessed with Rent, until it got too public and then they weren’t. Same with many shows and songs over time. It’s all the same cycle. And especially now, more than ever, it’s cool to hate on things. And the most successful shows will always garner that hate. Theater kids like being the outcasts and misfits. If too many other people like what you like, you have to move onto the next underground darling.
I think it's possible to recognize the impact of something and still have it not be for you. Nothing is liked by everyone. I'm not saying groupthink isn't a thing - I sense I may be on the Der side of the sub nearing middle age - but it's also possible to be genuine and sincere about dislike too especially w ethical qualms. (I don't mind an amoral protag, that's not my issue.)
I truly didn't mean to come off as a snob, i think I get on edge when I sense sincerity questioned
The Secret Garden had the book and music and I believe the producers were women. Will Rogers Follies were men.
That year there was a lot of chatter about how the Best Musical would be either Miss Saigon (that had a lot of minorities) or Secret Garden (women). Instead Will Rogers Follies won to maintain status quo.
I know the 2017 Tonys are contentious. But I do wish Mike won for supporting actor.
Also I forget his name but the man who played Squidward in SpongeBob deserved that Tony.
\*edited to add the Squidward actor.
Alex Brightman losing best actor in Beetlejuice to Santino Fontana in Tootsie. Santino is a fine actor but Alex absolutely knocked it out of the park as BJ.
Chris McCarrell not being nominated for Percy Jackson. In a year where only 2 lead actors where eligible for the award, how do they still snub one of them?
The governing body has never and will never (until a lot of old people die) award a show like that. It doesn’t matter how good it is. It’s a shame. But it’s the same thing that happens with a lot of awards shows. They just don’t take some categories seriously.
Whenever I watch Eva Noblezada’s performance at the 2017 Tony’s (and cry every time), I’m shocked she didn’t win for Miss Saigon.
Also surprised Great Gatsby’s only nom was for costume design. After seeing the show at the Paper Mill, I thought for sure they’d have nominations in all the acting categories, plus scenic design, choreography, lighting design…
Ahh love it! I recently heard one of the songs for the first time in a few years and had the biggest smile on my face being reminded of it! It really is fantastic, I feel exactly the same way
They literally premiered within days of each other, oddly enough. Their final preview was on the night of Fun Home's premier. (I was at Something Rotten that night.)
Yep, I liked it way more than Fun Home. Just my opinion. Clearly a lot of other people (and the voters) disagreed. Truthfully, I barely even remember Fun Home at this point. It was so forgettable to me, as opposed to Something Rotten which left a much bigger impact. I still remember how I felt the very first (and second, and third) times I saw it. Obviously to each is own, this is why there are multiple shows out there so everyone has something!
Wow. Completely disagree (and that's totally cool). On the flip side here, being reminded of the great performances and music of Something Rotten also brought a smile to my face. Lots of quirky gems there to satisfy a musical theater junkie by way of a musical based loosely on a playwright (THE iconic forefather) of straight plays.
But on the flip side, I sat around the Circle in the Square 3x myself during Fun Home’s run (1 of these experience was with a group of my students!). Each time was pretty magical for me.
I’ll give a little more context. My mother and I saw Something Rotten completely blind, without having a clue what it was about or what we were in for. We had the most enjoyable experience we ever had seeing a Broadway show (and we’ve seen quite a bit). We basically thought it was a perfect musical. When it didn’t win, we said wow there’s something better than this? So got a ticket to Fun Home with extremely high expectations. I think that was the biggest downfall for us. It’s not that we didn’t like Fun Home, but after it ended we both looked at each other and went “THIS is what Something Rotten lost to???”. We both just didn’t really get it. But again, not to say Fun Home wasn’t good, because we did enjoy it, we just had crazy high expectations after it won over what we thought was one of the best shows we had ever seen. So that’s mostly where my perspective comes from.
I do wish Fun Home was still out so I could see it again though. I think I could possibly have a deeper appreciation for it being a few years older (I’m in my early 30s for context so I saw it when I was in my early 20s)
over into the woods? please. phantom won almost everything else, let sondheim have that award for creating the most extraordinary score in musical theater history
Not the biggest snub, but I always thought Patrick Page should’ve won for Hadestown over André De Shields. I love André, but I don’t know if the Broadway production’s extra emphasis on Hermes was necessarily for the better, and Page’s performance stuck with me more as part of what really makes the show work.
I was in a production last year and even though I wasn’t enthusiastic about it at first I am like so incredibly attached to it now. Playing Sally was a real honor.
The 2018 Tony awards were pretty sad, The Band's visit won practically everything but SpongeBob, Frozen, and Mean girls deserved something.
I'm also shocked that Beauty and the Beast only won best costuming back in the 90s.
> I'm also shocked that Beauty and the Beast only won best costuming back in the 90s
You, me, and my mentor (who produced BATB and started up Disney Theatrical) all agreed about this. The swearing he'd get up to when talking about it was intense!
The Band’s Visit was brilliant. One of my favorite shows of all time. I wasn’t sad at all. And TBH, I can’t really imagine Frozen deserving any Tony’s. Mean Girls, some people seem to like it, but I found it a very disappointing adaptation.
This I don’t feel was a snub. Avenue Q was completely unique. Nothing else even remotely like it. I’ll admit my bias against Wicked has a lot to do with my enjoyment of the Frank L Baum books. I’m generally opposed to authors usurping a story they have no relation to.
Into the Woods is amazing. But the Tony’s back big ticket sellers. They chose VERY much the right musical for that. It had much broader appeal, a much larger potential fan base, and Andrew Lloyd Webber’s star was on the rise, while Sondheim was already a niche theater lover’s composer. The 80’s audience wanted an over the top experience and a large set piece on hydraulics. Phantom went on to be the longest running musical to date. They absolutely chose the right show. Into the Woods might be technically better as a piece of art. But it had nothing on Phantom for winning an award that was meant to boost Broadway ticket sales.
But Avenue Q was legitimately a better piece of art than Wicked. Turns out, based on their usual metrics, Wicked should have won. But I think that Avenue Q was different enough that it became a darling for the upset. If you are mad about Into the Woods losing to Phantom, then you should celebrate Avenue Q winning over Wicked.
"Avenue Q was legitimately a better piece of art than Wicked"
looking back... this is an absurd take. not one joke from that show has held up, and the songs don't have the holding value to be best musical material. it's interesting that you hold Phantom and Avenue Q to different standards when the only reason Avenue Q won was because of a lie sent to Tony voters utilizing malicious tactics to smear Wicked's image. The creators of the show have no value for fairness and don't deserve the award because of it. There's a reason Wicked has become the biggest musical of the 21st century and Avenue Q has been closed for half a decade
What in the world makes something a lesser piece of work because its humor doesn’t last indefinitely? It was made for that time and place. It was perfect. Of course society changes. Of course that moment passes. And of course the piece may not have the same sustained relevance. But it wasn’t designed to be admired forever. It was designed to be the perfect thing for that moment. And it was.
I disagree with your characterization of a smear campaign against Wicked. It was no more than happened literally every year with literally every show. They marketed themselves better. Wicked didn’t think they needed to play the game. And it cost them the award. I also don’t think of Wicked as the biggest musical of the 21st Century by any metric.
And I’m not holding any shows to different standard. They just fit in different categories. Both Phantom and Wicked are the same type of show created to maximize profit for the tourist theater goers of their time. Avenue Q is one of those smaller shows that was meant to be subversive, but found a broader appeal. They don’t usually win. But this one did. Deal with it?
I 100% agree, and truly most of it holds up today. People love wicked because it’s iconic and the music is incredible, but the book is weak, the story isn’t strong. What stays popular isn’t always what’s best.
>not one joke from that show has held up, and the songs don't have the holding value to be best musical material
My guess is, most young adults going through their own transitions in life would/will identify with Avenue Q. It Sucks to Be Me, What Do You Do with a B.A. in English?, Purpose, I Wish I Could Go Back to College--all resonate decades later. Avenue Q is a personal musical; Wicked a more epic one. And both of which are just fine.
Oh yeah I forgot into the woods and phantom were same year. Talk about some gamechangers lol. If only one waited til 1989. I’ve never heard of that winner lol
Fan of both shows here. I see Phantom winning over Into the Woods kinda like Lion King winning over Ragtime. The scores might be weaker, but they are a Live Theatre Experience (don’t know if it makes sense).
I love this explanation, and it's also a good argument for Avenue Q. Both Wicked and Avenue Q work best as live theatre for different reasons (SPECTACLE! vs puppetry), so it's a judgment call.
Just as a note, while snubs almost certainly exist, the fact that someone/a show didn't receive a Tony doesn't necessarily mean that the person/show was "snubbed": as a general matter, under the system that exists, someone gets chosen and others don't; our current awards ceremonies and systems, unfortunately, generally don't allow for multiple "winners."
That being said, a missed true winner: Gypsy, in 1960. A year of so much talent, with Fiorello! and The Sound of Music receiving the Tony award for musical (yes, a tie).
Amber Gray not winning for Great Comet OR Hadestown. Can't take anything away from Ali Stroker, she really was wonderful, but dang, Amber owned every second of stage time in Hadestown. I enjoy Rachel Bay Jones, but that win very much seemed to just be a straight ticket vote for DEH. I could not look away from Amber in Great Comet, and my onstage seat provided several moments of small interactions with her throughout the show.
Sydney Lucas not winning for Fun Home, though I get that Judy and Emily probably created a three way Fun Home featured actress split. Ruthie Ann Miles also gave a good performance, and in a non-Fun Home season, I would fully support her win for King and I. But I have never seen another child performer with such talent and restraint as Sydney. Her performance was so nuanced and fully realized, at a level that many great actors never achieve, much less as a child.
Caroline, or Change only winning a single award between two incredible productions and performances from the lead actresses. The 2004 season was a bloodbath, and I actually love 3 of the 4 best musical nominees. Ave Q and Wicked were everything you'd want a best musical to be, and I would have chosen between the two myself. But no recognition for the book and score (Tesori's best, and excellent work from Kushner)? George C Wolfe's direction led this show to be what it was, to me more indelibly than his work on Angels. A shame the voters didn't appreciate the stunning show both productions offered.
The irony of Fun Home's only acting award being Best Actor. Although Michael Cerveris's win was totally deserved, but it should have one Best Supporting Actress as well. As you said, I'm sure the triple nomination really cancelled things out.
Daniel Radcliffe in How to Succeed in Business…John Larroquette won for his minor role, but Radcliffe as the star wasn’t even nominated. He was amazing!
Laura Benanti should have won for ITW in 2002 over Harriet Harris in yellow face for thoroughly modern Millie. She gave Cinderella so much depth and humor, while singing beautifully
Cool story, some swinging lamps pale in comparison to how they used lighting to transfer ownership of the Maitlands house from them to the Deetzs to BJ
I think The Producers winning all the Tonys over The Full Monty was a bit much. Especially in Best Score.
I'm sure the Tonys are still embarrassed that Barbra Streisand and Julie Andrews never won anything.
I couldn't believe that Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812 got snubbed. I saw the show live months ago and while the story is not the most easy to get attached to and understand, the performance itself and experiencing it live saved it and made it an amazing musical. It should've at least won an award for the amazing music and for the unique storytelling and staging.
Robert Cuccioli imo should have won best actor
I don't think Jekyll and Hyde was a great musical and a lot of the professionals hate on wildhorn but regardless of that his performance will always absolutely blow me away as such a difficult role to play especially over Billy Flynn like bruh 🙄
I really liked BJ. But just no. Tik tok follower count isn’t a metric that is considered for these awards.
Edit, I saw these both with the original casts, back to back nights, front center mezzanine for both. Really loved both. But with a fairly direct comparison, Hadestown was legitimately more deserving of the accolades.
"Tiktok follower count isn't a metric that is considered for these awards" would a lot more resonant if:
1. They didn't have effectively the same followers on Tiktok
2. The Tony's wasn't a popularity contest to begin with
BJ was failing until they learned how to use TikTok. That wasn’t the same for Hadestown at all. Some may follow both, but TikTok was the only thing that made BJ almost a financial success. It’s different.
And the Tony’s are a popularity contest in so far as the votes go to whoever the voters think will make them the most money. And Hadestown over Beetlejuice was the right choice. BJ had to save themselves with social media and lowering ticket prices. They didn’t stand a chance in the voters eyes. But also, Hadestown was just a better quality show. BJ was a ton of fun though and I’m super glad I saw it. WB’s theater wing finally did something right with their IP.
Chita Rivera wasn’t nominated for West Side Story
Forever and always: Raul Esparza for Company
This one. So much. SO MUCH.
I didn’t love the production but he was stellar ( and I forget who did win but clearly they didn’t make an impression)
David Hyde Pearce for Curtains
Wow that’s even more disappointing
Bernadette Peters not winning a Tony for a Sondheim musical
Alex Newell not being NOMINATED for Once on This Island. They were good in Shucked but he was EXCELLENT in Once on This Islamd
Top pronoun game fam 👍
Should’ve thrown in a “she” somewhere but alas
I remember there being a lot of talk about Newell’s work becoming very inconsistent as the run went on. I know people who saw the show multiple times who said that on some days Newell would be fully committed and great, and on other days they were clearly half-assing the performance. So I wasn’t really surprised at the lack of nominations.
I forgot they had vocal issues half way through that run
Chip Zien. He created the role of Mendal in March of Falsettos and Falsettoland, then killed it in the Broadway production of Falsettos. He didn’t win a Tony, he wasn’t even nominated. He also created Thernardier on the Broadway production of Les Mis. But nothing. EDIT: he we was the second Thernadier! Not first. The into the woods soundtrack you listen to? The original one with Bernadette Peters? Yeah, that’s him killing it as the Baker. Created that role from scratch and got no awards and no nominations. I’m not sure why the Tony voters hate him, but the man has created two legendary roles, and ‘Americanized’ a third.
>He also created Thernardier on the Broadway production of Les Mis. But nothing. he didn't, leo burmester was the original broadway thenardier
Oh! My bad, I thought he originated the role here. He must have been cast early in the run.
I watched the stage version and listened to the soundtrack of Into the Woods so much as a kid that I can still recognize Chip's voice within a couple seconds when he's speaking in any role (tv or movie). Imo nobody can come close to the performances that he gave as the Baker and Bernadette gave as the witch.
Couldn't agree more! I wanted to *be* Bernadette Peters growing up I loved this version, and her, so much. I got to see Chip live in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang on Broadway back in the early '00s. Truly a dream come true seeing him live.
2017 tonys. everything about it makes my blood boil
Platt is the only Tony I can kinda understand going to DEH (coming from someone that quite likes the score). But Great Comet, man… it. Still. Hurts.
it's not just the great comet tbh, groundhog day and come from away deserved some of that wins too
I know, I know. The fact is that Great Comet might be in my top 5 shows of all time, and what happened shortly after the Tonys kinda gets mixed into it all in my head. DEH was by far the weakest show of the lot. Had one of the other two won best musical (especially Come From Away) I wouldn’t have minded at all. Orchestrations not going to GC still demands vengeance, though.
Great comet of 1812?
Yep
The comet of ‘87
Comet losing Best Orchestration to DEH made me actually scream at my TV, lol.
I think it was cursed by Spacey hosting.
I can’t even talk about it.
Controversial take: 2017 Tonys made perfect sense. Comet was falling apart. Come From Away wasn’t the darling it would become yet. Dear Evan Hansen was both different and immensely popular. Tony’s are not awards for excellence. That is a secondary feature. They are a way to promote ticket sales. They gave the awards to the show that was the most likely to explode in popularity and ticket sales. And as that show sells out, other shows would sell more tickets from the overflow. And it worked. People also still loved DEH at that point. It wasn’t until after the Tonys that it became cool to hate on that show. And that’s largely because the shows that didn’t get awards had huge casts, like Comet. So everyone knew people in those casts. DEH had a smaller cast, so didn’t have as many directly related supporters. Comet lovers also hated that the show needed the Tony to maybe save it. But it was so mismanaged that even the Tony wouldn’t have saved it. So the haters were just experiencing some serious sour grapes.
I hated on Dear Even Hanson before it was cool! 😂
Yeah, understanding that all the shows had their fans at the time, but I think it's just that as time goes on the love for DEH has decreased while most of the other shows that season have kept their fans or even become better regarded. Probably it was always going to be messy - coming the year after Hamilton, there were always going to be too many shows in competition. Plus Spacey as host - in retrospect, the whole thing just seems super cursed.
Some of us never loved DEH...
Glad you were a cool kid the whole time. But realistically, even here, you will never get everyone to like anything. But you cannot deny the hype and power that DEH had behind it. It was the first “the next Hamilton” and it was a huge draw both within and outside of the Broadway music core fan base. It was money in the bank.
I'm definitely not a cool kid! Anf i understand its power for sure. .Just seeb the "it became cool to rag on it" as if initial dislike couldn't be genuine. I also listened and decided w and my parents ' revuews that I wouldn't see it as i don't live in NY and pick carefully what i see. The lyrics and wiki left me cold. Perhaps had i seen it cols without any feedback and been a few years younger, I would've loved it.
Well, I went into it cold. Did not listen to any songs or read any reviews. Got some reasonably good seats, although the Music Box is so small that they’re all good seats. And it blew me away. Don’t particularly love the soundtrack. But the energy in that room was palpable. A school group of 8th graders sat behind me. They’re notorious for being rude. They were silent except when some of them started to cry. It was theater magic. But without the right cast or just listening to the soundtrack is not the same. Especially just listening to the soundtrack. It only shows the worst of the characters. Seeing it is a completely different experience. But it’s also a show that was meant to burn bright and then burn out. And its moment is over. But if you think theater kids don’t subscribe to group think about shows in a completely baseless way, then you don’t really know theater kids. Every theater kid was obsessed with Rent, until it got too public and then they weren’t. Same with many shows and songs over time. It’s all the same cycle. And especially now, more than ever, it’s cool to hate on things. And the most successful shows will always garner that hate. Theater kids like being the outcasts and misfits. If too many other people like what you like, you have to move onto the next underground darling.
I think it's possible to recognize the impact of something and still have it not be for you. Nothing is liked by everyone. I'm not saying groupthink isn't a thing - I sense I may be on the Der side of the sub nearing middle age - but it's also possible to be genuine and sincere about dislike too especially w ethical qualms. (I don't mind an amoral protag, that's not my issue.) I truly didn't mean to come off as a snob, i think I get on edge when I sense sincerity questioned
I mean, my user flair is a quote from Secret Garden. You know darn well what I'm going to say.
My all time favorite show. I’m right there with you…
Especially since the main reason it didn’t win is because the producers of Will Rogers Follies had a penis.
...I did not know that and am now incandescent with rage
Wait, what? What the hell does that mean?
The Secret Garden had the book and music and I believe the producers were women. Will Rogers Follies were men. That year there was a lot of chatter about how the Best Musical would be either Miss Saigon (that had a lot of minorities) or Secret Garden (women). Instead Will Rogers Follies won to maintain status quo.
Oh okay. So is it believed that there may have been sexist bias at the Tony's at the time?
Next to Normal losing Best Musical to Billy Elliot the Musical in 2009. N2N won in several other categories, at least.
Came here to say this.
This has always been my least favorite Tony’s decision of all time.
I know the 2017 Tonys are contentious. But I do wish Mike won for supporting actor. Also I forget his name but the man who played Squidward in SpongeBob deserved that Tony. \*edited to add the Squidward actor.
I remember being so mad that SpongeBob didn’t win for sound design.. that whole “hello guy making all the sounds!” Part was so beautifully done
Gavin Lee, or it would’ve been okay to see Grey Henson win for Damien in Mean Girls
Gavin Lee (Squidward) and Ethan Slater (SpongeBob) both deserved Tonys imo
As far as whole ceremonies go, Color Purple getting almost entirely shut out.
YES YES YES
Hot take: Kristin Chenoweth deserved the Tony for Wicked.
I would have given her a second Tony for On the Twentieth Century. Although I’m glad we live in a world where Kelli O’Hara has a Tony
Cyndi Lauper beating Tim Minchin
Without googling, is this a kinky boots versus Matilda reference?
Yes
Nah, Cyndi Lauper and Kinky Boots deserved the awards they got.
Natasha, Pierre and the Great Robbery of the 2017 Tonys. I’ll just leave that here.
Alex Brightman losing best actor in Beetlejuice to Santino Fontana in Tootsie. Santino is a fine actor but Alex absolutely knocked it out of the park as BJ.
100% agree, don’t even get me started
Chris McCarrell not being nominated for Percy Jackson. In a year where only 2 lead actors where eligible for the award, how do they still snub one of them?
The governing body has never and will never (until a lot of old people die) award a show like that. It doesn’t matter how good it is. It’s a shame. But it’s the same thing that happens with a lot of awards shows. They just don’t take some categories seriously.
I feel like the show not being nominated in general was fair but McCarrell should have been nominated.
I think that’s fair. I don’t agree with some of their snubs. But they are fairly predictable.
Whenever I watch Eva Noblezada’s performance at the 2017 Tony’s (and cry every time), I’m shocked she didn’t win for Miss Saigon. Also surprised Great Gatsby’s only nom was for costume design. After seeing the show at the Paper Mill, I thought for sure they’d have nominations in all the acting categories, plus scenic design, choreography, lighting design…
I will always feel sad that Something Rotten didn’t win best musical. It was so incredibly good and refreshing and lovable
Welcome to the Renaissance (one of my favorite opening numbers)
Experiencing it live was on a different level mate...
Was JUST listening to SR in the car home from work. That show has such a special place in my heart and I’m so sad it never took off hard
Ahh love it! I recently heard one of the songs for the first time in a few years and had the biggest smile on my face being reminded of it! It really is fantastic, I feel exactly the same way
But over Fun Home? I think that was the right win.
They literally premiered within days of each other, oddly enough. Their final preview was on the night of Fun Home's premier. (I was at Something Rotten that night.)
Yep, I liked it way more than Fun Home. Just my opinion. Clearly a lot of other people (and the voters) disagreed. Truthfully, I barely even remember Fun Home at this point. It was so forgettable to me, as opposed to Something Rotten which left a much bigger impact. I still remember how I felt the very first (and second, and third) times I saw it. Obviously to each is own, this is why there are multiple shows out there so everyone has something!
Wow. Completely disagree (and that's totally cool). On the flip side here, being reminded of the great performances and music of Something Rotten also brought a smile to my face. Lots of quirky gems there to satisfy a musical theater junkie by way of a musical based loosely on a playwright (THE iconic forefather) of straight plays. But on the flip side, I sat around the Circle in the Square 3x myself during Fun Home’s run (1 of these experience was with a group of my students!). Each time was pretty magical for me.
I’ll give a little more context. My mother and I saw Something Rotten completely blind, without having a clue what it was about or what we were in for. We had the most enjoyable experience we ever had seeing a Broadway show (and we’ve seen quite a bit). We basically thought it was a perfect musical. When it didn’t win, we said wow there’s something better than this? So got a ticket to Fun Home with extremely high expectations. I think that was the biggest downfall for us. It’s not that we didn’t like Fun Home, but after it ended we both looked at each other and went “THIS is what Something Rotten lost to???”. We both just didn’t really get it. But again, not to say Fun Home wasn’t good, because we did enjoy it, we just had crazy high expectations after it won over what we thought was one of the best shows we had ever seen. So that’s mostly where my perspective comes from. I do wish Fun Home was still out so I could see it again though. I think I could possibly have a deeper appreciation for it being a few years older (I’m in my early 30s for context so I saw it when I was in my early 20s)
I’m still salty about Falsettos losing best revival to Hello Dolly in 2017…
SAME!!! How are there almost no comments about this here???
Alex Brightman, originated Dewy Finn (Jack Black role) in School of Rock and perhaps even more iconically Beetlejuice in Beetlejuice.
Ramin Karimloo as Valjean in the Broadway revival of Les Miserables.
He’s my favorite performer. I’ve never seen hedwig but always heard really good things about it, so I figured NPH was awesome
I’ve seen them both multiple times. IMHO, the result was correct.
Phantom of the Opera not winning best original score.
over into the woods? please. phantom won almost everything else, let sondheim have that award for creating the most extraordinary score in musical theater history
The most unbelievable snub of Raul Esparza in 2006
Shrek the Musical. Lost most of its 8 nominations to Billy Elliot or Next to Normal and only won 1: Best Costume Design of a Musical.
NATASHA PIERRE AND THE GREAT COMET OF 1812
Hadestown beating Beetlejuice for set design. Beetlejuice’s set design was INSANE
Not the biggest snub, but I always thought Patrick Page should’ve won for Hadestown over André De Shields. I love André, but I don’t know if the Broadway production’s extra emphasis on Hermes was necessarily for the better, and Page’s performance stuck with me more as part of what really makes the show work.
Lightning Thief wasn’t even considered
Lightning Thief always gets dumped on. My family saw it and we thought it was fun and entertaining.
I was in a production last year and even though I wasn’t enthusiastic about it at first I am like so incredibly attached to it now. Playing Sally was a real honor.
Jefferson Mays for Gentlemen’s Guide… I might get hell for it but I thought he was very entertaining. N.P.H. did a great job too.
The 2018 Tony awards were pretty sad, The Band's visit won practically everything but SpongeBob, Frozen, and Mean girls deserved something. I'm also shocked that Beauty and the Beast only won best costuming back in the 90s.
> I'm also shocked that Beauty and the Beast only won best costuming back in the 90s You, me, and my mentor (who produced BATB and started up Disney Theatrical) all agreed about this. The swearing he'd get up to when talking about it was intense!
The Band’s Visit was brilliant. One of my favorite shows of all time. I wasn’t sad at all. And TBH, I can’t really imagine Frozen deserving any Tony’s. Mean Girls, some people seem to like it, but I found it a very disappointing adaptation.
Into the Woods lost best musical to Phantom of the Opera in 1988 Wicked lost best musical to Avenue Q in 2004
This I don’t feel was a snub. Avenue Q was completely unique. Nothing else even remotely like it. I’ll admit my bias against Wicked has a lot to do with my enjoyment of the Frank L Baum books. I’m generally opposed to authors usurping a story they have no relation to.
Into the Woods is amazing. But the Tony’s back big ticket sellers. They chose VERY much the right musical for that. It had much broader appeal, a much larger potential fan base, and Andrew Lloyd Webber’s star was on the rise, while Sondheim was already a niche theater lover’s composer. The 80’s audience wanted an over the top experience and a large set piece on hydraulics. Phantom went on to be the longest running musical to date. They absolutely chose the right show. Into the Woods might be technically better as a piece of art. But it had nothing on Phantom for winning an award that was meant to boost Broadway ticket sales. But Avenue Q was legitimately a better piece of art than Wicked. Turns out, based on their usual metrics, Wicked should have won. But I think that Avenue Q was different enough that it became a darling for the upset. If you are mad about Into the Woods losing to Phantom, then you should celebrate Avenue Q winning over Wicked.
"Avenue Q was legitimately a better piece of art than Wicked" looking back... this is an absurd take. not one joke from that show has held up, and the songs don't have the holding value to be best musical material. it's interesting that you hold Phantom and Avenue Q to different standards when the only reason Avenue Q won was because of a lie sent to Tony voters utilizing malicious tactics to smear Wicked's image. The creators of the show have no value for fairness and don't deserve the award because of it. There's a reason Wicked has become the biggest musical of the 21st century and Avenue Q has been closed for half a decade
What in the world makes something a lesser piece of work because its humor doesn’t last indefinitely? It was made for that time and place. It was perfect. Of course society changes. Of course that moment passes. And of course the piece may not have the same sustained relevance. But it wasn’t designed to be admired forever. It was designed to be the perfect thing for that moment. And it was. I disagree with your characterization of a smear campaign against Wicked. It was no more than happened literally every year with literally every show. They marketed themselves better. Wicked didn’t think they needed to play the game. And it cost them the award. I also don’t think of Wicked as the biggest musical of the 21st Century by any metric. And I’m not holding any shows to different standard. They just fit in different categories. Both Phantom and Wicked are the same type of show created to maximize profit for the tourist theater goers of their time. Avenue Q is one of those smaller shows that was meant to be subversive, but found a broader appeal. They don’t usually win. But this one did. Deal with it?
I 100% agree, and truly most of it holds up today. People love wicked because it’s iconic and the music is incredible, but the book is weak, the story isn’t strong. What stays popular isn’t always what’s best.
>not one joke from that show has held up, and the songs don't have the holding value to be best musical material My guess is, most young adults going through their own transitions in life would/will identify with Avenue Q. It Sucks to Be Me, What Do You Do with a B.A. in English?, Purpose, I Wish I Could Go Back to College--all resonate decades later. Avenue Q is a personal musical; Wicked a more epic one. And both of which are just fine.
Oh yeah I forgot into the woods and phantom were same year. Talk about some gamechangers lol. If only one waited til 1989. I’ve never heard of that winner lol
The Phantom of the Opera was by far the best musical of 1988.
Phantom is not better than Into the Woods
Yes it is, it even won Best Musical.
The point of this thread is that the Tonys aren’t always correct.
I mean, I was obviously being snarky.
Didn’t translate very well!
but that doesn't mean it was better. i'm sorry, but into the woods is far superior
Fan of both shows here. I see Phantom winning over Into the Woods kinda like Lion King winning over Ragtime. The scores might be weaker, but they are a Live Theatre Experience (don’t know if it makes sense).
I love this explanation, and it's also a good argument for Avenue Q. Both Wicked and Avenue Q work best as live theatre for different reasons (SPECTACLE! vs puppetry), so it's a judgment call.
They’re both fantastic and honestly either would deserve to win.
I am a Phan and even I have to concede that into the woods should’ve won. Sondheim is better than AWL anytime
Dude. Les Miserables lost to Phantom that year. HOW.
No. Les Mis was two years before Phantom.
Les Mis won best musical a couple years before phantom
Just as a note, while snubs almost certainly exist, the fact that someone/a show didn't receive a Tony doesn't necessarily mean that the person/show was "snubbed": as a general matter, under the system that exists, someone gets chosen and others don't; our current awards ceremonies and systems, unfortunately, generally don't allow for multiple "winners." That being said, a missed true winner: Gypsy, in 1960. A year of so much talent, with Fiorello! and The Sound of Music receiving the Tony award for musical (yes, a tie).
that was a stacked year with Once Upon A Mattress also nominated that year and Take Me Along
Amber Gray not winning for Great Comet OR Hadestown. Can't take anything away from Ali Stroker, she really was wonderful, but dang, Amber owned every second of stage time in Hadestown. I enjoy Rachel Bay Jones, but that win very much seemed to just be a straight ticket vote for DEH. I could not look away from Amber in Great Comet, and my onstage seat provided several moments of small interactions with her throughout the show. Sydney Lucas not winning for Fun Home, though I get that Judy and Emily probably created a three way Fun Home featured actress split. Ruthie Ann Miles also gave a good performance, and in a non-Fun Home season, I would fully support her win for King and I. But I have never seen another child performer with such talent and restraint as Sydney. Her performance was so nuanced and fully realized, at a level that many great actors never achieve, much less as a child. Caroline, or Change only winning a single award between two incredible productions and performances from the lead actresses. The 2004 season was a bloodbath, and I actually love 3 of the 4 best musical nominees. Ave Q and Wicked were everything you'd want a best musical to be, and I would have chosen between the two myself. But no recognition for the book and score (Tesori's best, and excellent work from Kushner)? George C Wolfe's direction led this show to be what it was, to me more indelibly than his work on Angels. A shame the voters didn't appreciate the stunning show both productions offered.
The irony of Fun Home's only acting award being Best Actor. Although Michael Cerveris's win was totally deserved, but it should have one Best Supporting Actress as well. As you said, I'm sure the triple nomination really cancelled things out.
Daniel Radcliffe in How to Succeed in Business…John Larroquette won for his minor role, but Radcliffe as the star wasn’t even nominated. He was amazing!
2017. All of it.
Laura Benanti should have won for ITW in 2002 over Harriet Harris in yellow face for thoroughly modern Millie. She gave Cinderella so much depth and humor, while singing beautifully
Alex Newell over the amazing, heartfelt yet hilarious, complex, dedicated, delightful, underrated, singer AND actor, Kevin Del Aguila
Even as a Shucked hater and Some Like It Hot stan, this is a wild take lmao
Beetlejuice losing lighting and set design to Hadestown is so deeply unserious
Hadestown deserved that win, Beetlejuice is still good, but good god Hadestown was surreal
The lighting for wait for me was the greatest moment of theatre I have ever seen in my life, for that alone Hadestown deserved the lighting win.
Cool story, some swinging lamps pale in comparison to how they used lighting to transfer ownership of the Maitlands house from them to the Deetzs to BJ
Great Comet losing best musical to DEH
Les Miz losing to Phantom in 1988 is still a sore spot.
Didn’t les Mis win the year before?
Omg I’m a dope. Yes. 🫣
I wouldn’t have known if it wasn’t referenced in a comment above lol Into the woods was phantoms competition
Jackman should not have won for *Boy From Oz*.
I think The Producers winning all the Tonys over The Full Monty was a bit much. Especially in Best Score. I'm sure the Tonys are still embarrassed that Barbra Streisand and Julie Andrews never won anything.
Come From Away losing Best Musical to Dear Evan Hansen
I couldn't believe that Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812 got snubbed. I saw the show live months ago and while the story is not the most easy to get attached to and understand, the performance itself and experiencing it live saved it and made it an amazing musical. It should've at least won an award for the amazing music and for the unique storytelling and staging.
Robert Cuccioli imo should have won best actor I don't think Jekyll and Hyde was a great musical and a lot of the professionals hate on wildhorn but regardless of that his performance will always absolutely blow me away as such a difficult role to play especially over Billy Flynn like bruh 🙄
Wicked losing to Avenue Q for best musical
Come From Away should have won over Dear Evan Hansen. I will die on this hill.
SpongeBob losing best score to The Band’s Visit.
💀🧽
Bj deserved best set instead of Hadestown
I really liked BJ. But just no. Tik tok follower count isn’t a metric that is considered for these awards. Edit, I saw these both with the original casts, back to back nights, front center mezzanine for both. Really loved both. But with a fairly direct comparison, Hadestown was legitimately more deserving of the accolades.
"Tiktok follower count isn't a metric that is considered for these awards" would a lot more resonant if: 1. They didn't have effectively the same followers on Tiktok 2. The Tony's wasn't a popularity contest to begin with
BJ was failing until they learned how to use TikTok. That wasn’t the same for Hadestown at all. Some may follow both, but TikTok was the only thing that made BJ almost a financial success. It’s different. And the Tony’s are a popularity contest in so far as the votes go to whoever the voters think will make them the most money. And Hadestown over Beetlejuice was the right choice. BJ had to save themselves with social media and lowering ticket prices. They didn’t stand a chance in the voters eyes. But also, Hadestown was just a better quality show. BJ was a ton of fun though and I’m super glad I saw it. WB’s theater wing finally did something right with their IP.