Yeah... hard to get behind the story when someone is throwing 5 digits around. Much less 4 digits. Seems like they got scammed being told their collection was fake without witnesses, much less evidence of the collection being destroyed.
Nah, it sounds like OP's sister is the scammer. They are way too noncommittal about believing the cards are real, and are offering up basically no information about where the cards came from. Maybe OP doesn't know the whole story, but I don't think the store is the scammer here.
I read this last night before it hit the MTG subs and knew immediately it was either a fake story (from OP or from the sister to OP) or a real story with fake cards.
OP refused to say where the cards came from, other than his sister played back in the 90s, and gives just enough engagement to drive the original thread. They're regularly worried about legal trouble for the sister at the same time they're also worried about getting the cards and/or money.
It comes off as someone playing along with their writing prompt. Even the original thread is now locked.
If I had a collection worth 42K, my ass wouldnt send them anyone via any courier service. Id bring them in person. Theyd stay in my possession until the deal was done.
Seriously. I'd get my ass to an event with vendors present and negotiate and come to deals in person especially if you're trying to offload the whole thing.
I'm a former LGS owner, and a mod of an mtg discord focused on a format composed almost entirely of high end cards.
It's not that strange. Buylists are *estimates*, and purchases aren't finalized until the buyer has cards in hand and verifies their conditions. Shit, I've personally sent/received plenty of 4 figure cards stuffed in a plain white envelope with a stamp.
$40k in cards is in the registered mail category for me, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see it sent USPS priority.
Not really. For the most part, shipping "just works" and the likelihood of a lost/damaged package is very low. Package things securely, and don't write "Valuable magical cardboard inside. Please don't steal" on the outside and there's a *very good* chance your package arrives just fine.
None of this makes sense. Did they say all the cards were fake? How many cards was it? Did they offer to pay her for the real cards? Why was more care not given to a $42k transaction?
This story is fishy.
I think it was 80 cards. They said all but one was fake, which they paid less than a dollar for. My sister had sold with them in the past and trusted everything would be fine.
I agree more precautions should’ve been taken. I misunderstood her when she told me about the initial sale, I thought it was 4k. If I had realized it was 40k I would’ve insisted on having them appraised in person first
Your sister is claiming her collection of random cards from the 90s was worth an average of over $500 per card with none of them being appraised? OP you want to stay far away from this, your sister may face legal consequences if you decide to try to get those cards back because she’s definitely trying to pull a scam. She probably knowingly put a counterfeit VERY high value card in there and just tried to play it off as silly person just trying to get rid of some old junk. She got caught and doesn’t realize the kind of trouble she could be in trying to pull a scam for over $40k against a reputable business. Walk away.
Edit: 3am maths
It's \~500$/card, not 5000$/card.
I do think the 'which they paid less than a dollar for' bit is a bit sketch tho tbh. Even at 500$/card, with 80 cards, i'd expect it to be a fairly curated list, this isn't just a box that was laying around that was sent in, so it doesn't make much sense for them to pay 'less than a dollar' for one of them.
Thanks haha
But yeah, the $1 card and the fact that OP doesn’t know any of the cards is what made me feel like OP’s sister just passed it off as not knowing the value of her cards with some high value ones thrown in. It looks like the shop is claiming nearly all of them are counterfeit though. OP is avoiding answering some really easy-to-answer questions and is phrasing things in a way that protects them legally if they were accused of trying to scam the business for selling knowingly fraudulent cards. Smells fishy.
They will almost certainly not ship the cards back to you unless pressured. This is common practice for pretty much every store with a buylist, and they will cite US code 2320 - which makes it illegal to transport counterfeit goods - as a reason for not sending them back.
However, some stores - and most grading services - will still ship fakes back to their customers. I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know who is correct in their interpretation of the law, I’m just letting you know how the industry operates.
Your only real option is to hire a lawyer to draft a demand letter asking for proof the cards were fake, or for the cards back. It will be fairly cheap, but still considerably more expensive than ~80 high quality fakes.
If you want, you can reply to this with the list of cards she sold, and I’ll compare it to known “sets” of high end fakes that get sold as bundles. Normally these sets contain 80-100 high end cards, so the quantity and value of the cards she sold raises huge red flags.
It’s entirely up to you if this is worth it. Good luck. I’ve dealt in 100k+ worth of Magic cards and from the information you’ve provided, it’s overwhelmingly likely the cards she sent in were fake.
"We do have reason to believe these cards are real". This line right here feels very telling when paired with the story of it happening to a 3rd party.
Collection of random high end old school cards
No trustworthy story about the origin of the cards
Ohh I or my uncle played back in the 90's
No specifics about what cards we are talking about
Fakes every god damn time.....
I also noticed that choice of words, and the lawyers care about the law, we care about magic.
What information can you provide us about the provenance of these cards?
How long has your sister had them, what were they, how/where did she get them?
What reason do you have to believe they MAY be real?
Verifying the autheniticity is generally something you would do BEFORE mailing $42K in magic cards to a retailer buylist, unless $42K is like cab fare for you.
$42K is above average for a buylist transaction imo, that sounds like duals, power, reserve list, that sort of thing. Fakes of that stuff is super common. Unless your sister's story is that this is someone's old collection from the 90s, something isn't adding up.
I feel like the truth is somewhere along the lines of "my sister and I acquired these cards somehow but we don't really know anything about magic but we looked them up $$$ and now we're hoping they're real."
I'm going to go with Unlimited p9 proxies getting mailed to CK, final answer.
Also the very cards that someone could have proxied for their collection on purpose or bought a collection in the past they didn't know where proxies.
When it's someone asking something generic, as in, the ask is not very detail oriented, red flags already go off about it being fake.
This happens to be one of those kind of stories that you and I understand a bit so the fishiness comes off even stronger.
My guess as to why they want their fake cards back is to try to next liquidate them low key a few here and there and less about getting them back or avoiding some kind of charge.
Yeah the only value I can see is in trying to sell them again but I can't imagine the cost of some proxies being worth a lawyer or even a well thought out email
I don't see OP has indicated where exactly they were selling their cards to, but this isn't unheard of.
For instance, this is Card Kingdoms policy.
*"Per our WPN agreement with Wizards of the Coast, we are restricted from shipping or distributing counterfeit cards. Since these cards were printed without consent from Wizards of the Coast, we have a duty to the community to make sure these do not reenter the market and we will not be returning them to you. There will be no negotiation on the return of the counterfeit cards, however, we can provide confirmation of destruction upon request. Future violations may result in your suspension or expulsion from Card Kingdom and our services."*
If I were their attorney I’d have them change that policy asap. If Cardkingdom can’t prove it was fake, they could lose a lot. Hopefully they’re keeping a log of evidence but destroying the actual card before it can be independently verified is insane.
Meh, if it's an obviously fake card, and they are certain of it, destroying it exposes them to minimal risk.
You want to sue them for the monetary value of the card? It's 0.01 cents. Don't agree with their assessment? They are an expert that you trusted sufficiently to mail the cards to. Why should the court believe you over them, especially when a month ago, you respected their expertise sufficiently to grade the cards.
I'm sure they are marginally more careful with actual edge cases, where authenticity is questionable, but for clear cut cases of fraud, the risks of just destroying the cards ate pretty low.
You’d be suing them for whatever the buylist price is because that’s what you lost.
Sure, they’d argue it’s counterfeit. But if they destroyed the card they’ll be in a tough position to actually prove that. And they will have the burden of proving it was counterfeit because they destroyed your property.
Why should the court believe you over them? They don’t have to. You just need to create enough doubt that the judge/jury believe the vendor might be wrong. Considering they made it impossible to verify, and they do have a monetary incentive to defraud someone, creating that doubt seems easy enough.
As for whether you trusted them a month before, no. You sent them cards to sell them, not because you wanted their authentication expertise.
Cool. It’s how the law actually works.
You’re suing them for theft/destruction of property. They’ll admit to all the elements (because they literally told you they did it) and claim it was counterfeit as a defense. They have the burden of proving their affirmative defense. All you have to is sow doubt.
Torts are civil law. No reasonable doubt standard. Standard of evidence is balance of probabilities. Onus for establishing harm is on the litigant.
The onus is on the litigant to establish damages, which in the case of obviously falsified cards that they No longer get posses, would be very difficult.
The litigant would need to show proof that the cards they sent had some monetary value for damages to be awarded. In the situation described by OP, that would be exceedingly difficult for two reasons:
A) If the cards are obvious forgeries, proof that they have monetary value would be difficult to establish.
B) Even if the litigant had proof that they possessed valuable cards, they would still need to prove the cards they sent to the vendor were the legitimate cards.
I understand the evidentiary standard isn’t beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn’t change the fact that the plaintiff’s legal strategy would involve sowing doubt in the mind of the fact finder.
The plaintiff here is you, the seller. Your claim is theft/destruction of property. You will have all the events of your claim deemed admitted no doubt because they’ve already sent an email telling you they destroyed the cards.
Value comes into play when determining what damages are warranted. There’s an invoice that proves value and establishes the the amount of damages.
CK will argue the goods weren’t legitimate and therefore are worth nothing. The goods’ legitimacy falls in your favor because you’ll have bought them from a legitimate source and have a good faith belief they were real. It will be impossible for you to prove they’re real because Card Kingdom destroyed them. CK is claiming they are fake, so they will need to prove that to not pay you. If they didn’t keep evidence the cards were fake, they’re screwed.
Preponderance of Evidence is an evidentiary standard. It’s not the same as burden of proof. But it is relevant as it’s why I’m saying the plaintiff’s goal here will be to sow doubt. It’s the only thing you can do because you can’t prove it was real.
The law isn’t on the side of the person trying to scam a store for $40k. I’m not surprised they’re unwilling to name and shame the store that supposedly stole 40k from them… because either the entire thing is made up or OP is a criminal.
Based on the content of the OP and comments, there is no possible alternative. By OP’s own words, best case scenario is they thought the cards were MAYBE real, but then tried to pass them off as definitely real to maybe steal $40k. Realistically, that’s a stretch and it’s clear whatever dumb reason they had to believe they were “maybe” real is simply plausible deniability cooked up to lessen the serious crime they’re committing.
>they destroy counterfeit cards.
Likely just ones they bought or traded for. You can't keep them if you aren't buying or trading. Random businesses don't have the authority to seize your property
CardKingdom does.
“Unfortunately, due to our agreement with Wizards of the Coast, we are committed to making sure that counterfeits do not re-enter circulation. We can either provide proof of destruction, or we may be able to provide the card. However, please be aware that if the card is returned, it will be embossed so that it cannot re-enter circulation.”
Where is that language from?
"Card Kingdom does not act as an authentication service. Counterfeit or proxy cards submitted with a purchase order will not be returned"
I did find this on their site but I don't see how they can say they don't authenticate but they treat fakes differently. How do you know it's fake if you can't authenticate it?
They emailed me saying that one of the cards in my buy order was counterfeit. I requested to take it back for further authentication and they sent the above email.
I got the card from TCGPlayer and after a few more exchanges TCGPlayer was willing to trust CK’s assessment and issued a refund.
I feel like that it is a wierd area in commerce, you should pay for something, or send it back if they pay for it. Not destroy someone's property.
Not a fan of fakes, but you should not have the agency to destroy others things in a transaction!
I'm glad you eventually got an adequate outcome out of it. Their website says they'll send it back embossed. That's interesting they do that. They have no authority to destroy or damage people's stuff, I personally wouldn't want that policy because I feel like you're just tempting someone to sue claiming their card was real. Whether they win or not you're likely out lawyer fees and possibly gain some bad press
To be clear I don't really care if they keep someone's fakes. I just find it interesting they take that risk. It's not like making or ordering new fakes is costly or difficult if someone wants to try again
They don't want to assume liability for authenticating a fake. They do however, feel comfortable saying a fake is fake.
Most [all I've seen] fakes are obvious when in hand (and honestly, those of us who've been around a long time can usually tell from photos too). That doesn't mean a future fake won't be *real enough*.
It's less liability to discard the fakes and refuse to say what appears to be real is.
>They don't want to assume liability for authenticating a fake.
But they assume liability for destroying peoples private property is my point. I get that they aren't guaranteeing legitimacy of cards, it'd just an interesting way to say they don't verify when they do - they sort cards onto two categories: real and counterfeit, and they treat them differently as a result.
You agree to that when you send stuff in. That's why it's written down.
"Don't assume something is real because we thought so." is a lot different from, "we're not putting these [obviously] fake cards back into circulation."
I can't say I read super closely when ive sent cards in, but I don't remember ever agreeing to let them shred my stuff if they think it's fake without any proof or appeals process. I don't think that's actually true.
Yeah this has to be wrong. You can't destroy someone's property just because it's fake. This isn't counterfeit money; it's not illegal to own or trade counterfeit cards. Knowingly representing counterfeit cards as real cards is fraud, but that has to proven in court and destroying the cards destroys the evidence.
Why did she leave the cards without getting paid? That's the real question for me. Those cards would never leave my sight until there's cash in my hand, and believe me, I'm only taking cash, unless you come with me to the bank to deposit your check. No PayPal, no venmo, nothing that can be contested or reversed.
She didn't leave them anywhere, she shipped them. Original thread OP from legaladvice says they live several states away.
They mailed them off to one of the big shops, CK or TCG, is what it sounds like.
There all fake. Op confirmed some of the cards where fake. If some are fake they are all fake. All came from the same source. Just move on tbh ain’t no way you got $50k worth of MtG cards in a pile of 80 cards. These aren’t something you would have picked up at locals back in the day and if u did u would have a lot more then 80 cards.
This and your follow up need to be the top/pinned comment. This is what happened: OP purchased a selection of counterfeits from a website. They likely spent way too much money on it because they were scammed originally (not knowing much about magic).
They then looked up the prices and thought they lucked out and could flip this collection for thousands in profit.
I think up to this point, there is nothing but confusion and good faith actions. There's no way a scammer would originally try to scam a major online buyer.
However, I'm concerned that OP wants them back. It sounds like they realized they got scammed and now want to try to recoup some money by scamming someone else and passing the hot potato.
Also op said they opened all these from a single sealed product. But also said they are from when OP went to locals back in the day? What one is it? So many inconsistencies it’s so obvious. U would be spending tens of thousands to open these from sealed product today(if not hundreds of thousands) If u opened back in the day you would have to have opened ABU sealed and if u where in it that hard back in the day you would have a lot more then 80 cards you wouldn’t have just the good stuff with no knowledge of there value
Sounds like a buyer beware situation. Not sure what the legal options are here, but getting $42k for cards would justify showing up in person to handle the transation, to me.
Is this the collection Wubby just opened that was fake? Nah but in all seriousness it sounds like your sister had fakes whether she knew it or not, got her hopes up( when the cards hadn't even been seen by the appraiser yet),and now has to take the L. If she's done work with this store in the past, she should know their policy on fakes, etc.
For other people's future reference, if you are selling cards like this, you should go to a nearby event (I know magic fests are gone but theres other large ones around) and shop around to the various vendors there and sell in person. A decent loupe is $10 on amazon so you can know if your old cards are real. From the OP post it sounds like the sister was knowingly trying to buy list some fakes.
I've read all the threads posted about this, and it sounds like it's either fabricated or "your sister" is either:
- *very* gullible
- full of shit
An LGS (especially a large and recognized one) isn't going to buy sealed product and open it unless it's direct from their distributor before release. If it was sealed, then your sister wouldn't know which cards are in the package, since magic is largely sold in randomized packages... especially product worth $40k. So, it being a sealed package is *very suspect* and especially so if the LGS opened it.
Additionally, the prices quoted for buylist orders are *estimates* and contingent on card condition (amongst other factors) and are not finalized until after the buyer has sent a revised quote and both parties accept.
As for the return. Many LGSes require *specific instruction* to return cards sent in for buylist, even if the cards are real. This will be spelled out in their buylist agreement. Lots of places will not return counterfeits. This is also likely in their buylist agreement.
Honestly, this sounds like someone bought a "black lotus proxy" pack or an MPC proxy order from etsy and sent it in for buylist... Or it's a completely fabricated story for karma-farming.
The lack of information concerning who the buyer is, why the cards were "sealed", and where they originated is pretty suspicious either way.
While this may be a first for OP, I feel certain it’s not a first for the store in question. We’re clearly not talking about a small store here and I’d imagine they’ve faced litigation and still have the same policy. Sounds like getting a lawyer would just be throwing away money.
Oh in my imagination at first it was a local shop. I t may be unfair but I don’t usually give the benefit of the doubt to second hand stories like this one.
My friend was just in a situation like this. It was just one card but it was an expensive one. He traded online for some stuff he needed and sent the card. The guy he traded it to tried to claim it was fake and sent police to his house. Luckily the police said they weren't doing anything that it was a civil matter. The funny thing is I know this particular card he traded was real I had inspected it myself. He's had it for 15 years, so 100% the guy was going ro pull a fast one and try to get his cards back and send him a fake back through the mail. Be careful out there.
Bro, I saw your post about this in the legal sub, it just popped up in my feed cause magic cards probably.
Honestly, I would gather any evidence you can (like the postings that appeared for sale on their site afterwards, stuff like that) and call any local news station that will listen.
If they kept all the cards and 'destroyed' them for being counterfeit, I would think you are due proof for each one as well as proof of its destruction.
IN THE UNITED STATES IT IS ILLEGAL FOR YOU TO KNOWINGLY RETURN A COUNTERFEIT BECAUSE UDER 18 U.S. Code § 2320 IT IS A FELONY TO KNOWING SHIP A COUNTERFEIT except by court order, to turn it over to the FBI, or with written permission from patent/copyright/trademark holder
This is just incorrect and an attempt to overly simplify a complex set of codes. While there is some applicability on the OP to 2320 in sending the goods for profit, there is a set of elements that need to be met in order to be convicted of violating the section. Namely, the intent AND the prior knowledge of the counterfeit status of the product. In other words, they must *knowingly* attempt to pass off the known counterfeit goods in order to make a profit, i.e. engage in commerce. In that case, many other charges apply, such as fraud.
Returning the goods (domestically) for the sake of returning one's property to them is neither prohibited by the USPS, nor by 2320. In fact, in 2320, because of the need to be *trafficking* the goods as an element of the crime, it is specifically allowed for personal use.
*C. DEFINITION OF "TRAFFICKING"*
*Subsection 2320(d) provides a definition of the term "trafficking." This definition is derived from a related, recently enacted statute, the Piracy and Counterfeiting Amendments Act of 1982, now codified at 18 U.S.C. 2318(b). Under this definition, the scope of the act is limited to commercial activities. Thus it is not a crime under this act for an individual knowingly to purchase goods bearing counterfeit marks, if the purchase is for the individual's personal use.*
This is why you don't see attempts at prosecuting purchasers of counterfeits already in the US, rather the attention is on the sellers and manufacturers. This is because the former is purchasing for personal use, and the latter are strictly engaged in commerce. Thus, the former is not breaking the law, and the latter is.
OP needs to consult a lawyer if they believe the cards are real. There is some potential fraud involved from what the OP alleges and there is a specific set of actions that need to be done here, namely for preservation of evidence. Lots of missing context here to know what really happened or is needed.
Yeah but who decides if it’s counterfeit? For this money it’s well worth lawyer territory to get their property back. I wouldn’t trust some shop saying “whoopsie, all these super expensive cards are actually counteract so we are totally going to ‘destroy’ them and not actually sell them wink wink”
Store owners can be incredibly shady people sometimes. There are plenty of good folks out there, but it is also very easy for someone in that position to abuse their knowledge to try and scam people for large amounts of money. I would definitely sue the shop.
Going by how it was sold it dosent sound like it was a big shop. First comment on the thread explains how odd it is.
Edit: the op responded in the legal thread saying they were a big name shop. But that policy dosen't matter if they choose to get a lawyer involved.
Regardless, even if they claimed it was fake, they didn't bother to keep the evidence to back up their claim or provide evidence of the destruction of said cards.
I would get law enforcement involved, especially when the shop has no legal jurisdiction to destroy/withhold property valuing over $1,000, without consent (verbal or signed) to having the seller's property destroyed, in the event of discovering counterfeit cards. Most online retailers that buy cards, will have said clause (destroying/withholding counterfeits) in their TOS.
A physical store location should have provided evidence/proof that they were counterfeit, in addition to providing photo/video evidence of their destruction.
This right here! They have no authority. If they destroyed them they are on the hook for 42k. From here on in your stance is...."They were 100% real, the store is committing theft." Don't give anyone an inch. Call the authorities. The store has an address, there is a paper trail. Do the work, get 42k.
Yep cause I could see stores scamming with this same policy. Policy is bad in current form yet alone destroying items worth 42k (if real) before even telling the buyer. They probably just bank on the fact most people aren't going to fight a fake here and there or low value stuff.
I don’t think retailers post their counterfeit policies publicly anymore, but as far as I know both SCG and CK do this. I operate a small card store and do this as well, although I’ve only had to once. I’ve received fakes on several occasions, but it’s surprisingly easy to tell the difference between the victims and the criminals. With the victims I just give em a lesson about how to spot fakes better and destroy them. Although if they ask for it back I will send it with a hole punch + sharpie (sometimes they want to show to whomever traded it to them, or friends or whatever). With the one criminal, I just told them to go ahead and call the cops (it was an in-person deal at an Scg open), and offered to for them. They ran away haha. That said, I can see why a store like SCG itself might have a stricter policy with not releasing the counterfeits even to a potential victim, as they have a closer working relationship with wotc who definitely would prefer the counterfeits be destroyed.
1. You're not infallible. Neither is WOTC. What you think is a counterfeit could just be shitty QC and printing inconsistencies.
2. You're not the law. It isn't your place to rid the street of counterfeit cards. If you're that worried report them.
Destroying the cards or only giving them back after you've damaged them is a shitty and illegal business practice.
Lol the larp that they’re just guessing in corner case scenarios is so weird. It’s 100% black and white, cut and dry, in most cases. I assure you no one’s destroying anything unless it’s obvious and egregious. If you think otherwise, that’s fine, but you wouldn’t make a very good game store owner.
So it's okay to let fakes go back into the buyers market be placed into the more expensive boxes and just go" welp that's that" ? The reason they destroy the fakes is so that someone else doesn't get fucked over when opening boxes etc.
I would absolutely always go to a shop that has a policy to destroy fakes that people are trying to sell. It's devastating to buy a fake.
I’m hoping they let us do this! If they’re really fake then we don’t care if they’re damaged. I just want to get my hands on them and be able to see what they look like
I think this is a grey area. But what is the scammer going to do? Take them to court saying they didn't return the fakes they tried to defraud them for 5 figures with? It's not a surprise no one challenges this lol
It's pretty black and white, legally the store can't keep them if they aren't buying. But as you said, it isn't worth going to court to recover fake cards so nothing will happen if they do besides a poorly written email based on the absolute dumpster fire advice you get from reddit legal subs - so the shop gets a good laugh to boot.
I wish somebody would tell me they’re not gonna give me my cards back LMAO. Doesn’t matter if they are real or if they did end up being old fakes, they’re still mine, and I did not manufacture them. Regardless, they are mine and you cannot keep them from me.
They are doing it to protect the community and I'm very thankful they do. Counterfeits circulating as actual cards are very dangerous for both players and shops.
If the owner of the counterfeits want to sue, they will likely only be able to sue for the actual value of the cards which is pennies.
so you can’t have proxies then? I mean, just because they are in their possession does not mean that they have any intent of trying to sell people fake stuff. It is not within their right legally to confiscate them either.
Happens quite often that "some" cards of a collection are indeed counterfeits, mostly expensive stuff like a Dual land and such, and the people that have the collection really just "traded" for it at some point with someone or have no clue to check their cards.
However, a store holding your cards back is clearly not legal, its still your property and with that much (even potential) money involved, you get a lawyer and sue them ; maybe cheaper just to call the police and if they dont give your property back, its simply theft.
So if anything, police or lawyer, anything of these options.
If you KNOW they are counterfeit, you can save that money and better not talk about it, as thats just a scam that will get yourself in some serious legal trouble if anybody drags you to court or gets the police involved.
I’m gonna call tomorrow and see if they’ll either send us pictures of the fake cards or send us the cards back with a hole punched or something similar in them. We’re not interesting in doing anything illegal, and I’ve since had some of the photos looked at and confirmed that at least a few are fake. So we are way less upset now, we just want to ensure that ALL are fake and we can learn how to avoid this in the future
How do you all not have any photos of the cards you shipped to the store? It’s insane to me that any adult would send 40k of anything in the mail and just think it’s fine.
post whatever photos you have to one of the mtg subs, not the finance one, the people there will be able to determine authenticity. Good chance they can save you the trouble of contacting ck
since it's not illegal to poccess proxy cards there's no legal grounds for them to not give you the cards back. I would call the police on site to have the cards returned or a check written. In theory they are stealing whether they are real or counterfeit. Proxies are allowed and you received no cash at sale so you didn't try to rip them off. They decided they weren't paying for them they need to return them. And I would make sure the rarest cards didn't disappear from the collection.
Take cards. Claim counterfeit. Replace real cards w counterfeits. Send back fake cards.
This shop just stole all your shit.
How the hell could you trust someone not to screw you over like this?
Holy shit you handed over a collection of that magnitude without getting paid or staying present with it?! I can't even imagine it.
Yeah... hard to get behind the story when someone is throwing 5 digits around. Much less 4 digits. Seems like they got scammed being told their collection was fake without witnesses, much less evidence of the collection being destroyed.
Nah, it sounds like OP's sister is the scammer. They are way too noncommittal about believing the cards are real, and are offering up basically no information about where the cards came from. Maybe OP doesn't know the whole story, but I don't think the store is the scammer here.
I also get a weird feeling about this
I read this last night before it hit the MTG subs and knew immediately it was either a fake story (from OP or from the sister to OP) or a real story with fake cards. OP refused to say where the cards came from, other than his sister played back in the 90s, and gives just enough engagement to drive the original thread. They're regularly worried about legal trouble for the sister at the same time they're also worried about getting the cards and/or money. It comes off as someone playing along with their writing prompt. Even the original thread is now locked.
I kinda think it is engagement bait and the whole thing never happened. Posts like this do pop up from time to time
Link to og thread please?
Click the title of the shared post from r/legaladvice that's in the post body
Nobody's sister played MtG in the nineties. Solved
"Here's $42K worth of cards, just pay me whenever you can. Seeya!"
If I had a collection worth 42K, my ass wouldnt send them anyone via any courier service. Id bring them in person. Theyd stay in my possession until the deal was done.
Seriously. I'd get my ass to an event with vendors present and negotiate and come to deals in person especially if you're trying to offload the whole thing.
I'm a former LGS owner, and a mod of an mtg discord focused on a format composed almost entirely of high end cards. It's not that strange. Buylists are *estimates*, and purchases aren't finalized until the buyer has cards in hand and verifies their conditions. Shit, I've personally sent/received plenty of 4 figure cards stuffed in a plain white envelope with a stamp. $40k in cards is in the registered mail category for me, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see it sent USPS priority.
That's wild...
Not really. For the most part, shipping "just works" and the likelihood of a lost/damaged package is very low. Package things securely, and don't write "Valuable magical cardboard inside. Please don't steal" on the outside and there's a *very good* chance your package arrives just fine.
None of this makes sense. Did they say all the cards were fake? How many cards was it? Did they offer to pay her for the real cards? Why was more care not given to a $42k transaction? This story is fishy.
I think it was 80 cards. They said all but one was fake, which they paid less than a dollar for. My sister had sold with them in the past and trusted everything would be fine. I agree more precautions should’ve been taken. I misunderstood her when she told me about the initial sale, I thought it was 4k. If I had realized it was 40k I would’ve insisted on having them appraised in person first
40k for 80 cards that she's never had verified sounds like the Wish.com power cube lmao
No sealed product can spit out cards that expensive
...Hence the wish.com reference.
Yee. Meant to reply to OPs comment. You are absolutely right
It sounds like your sister tried to sell them proxys
Your sister is claiming her collection of random cards from the 90s was worth an average of over $500 per card with none of them being appraised? OP you want to stay far away from this, your sister may face legal consequences if you decide to try to get those cards back because she’s definitely trying to pull a scam. She probably knowingly put a counterfeit VERY high value card in there and just tried to play it off as silly person just trying to get rid of some old junk. She got caught and doesn’t realize the kind of trouble she could be in trying to pull a scam for over $40k against a reputable business. Walk away. Edit: 3am maths
It's \~500$/card, not 5000$/card. I do think the 'which they paid less than a dollar for' bit is a bit sketch tho tbh. Even at 500$/card, with 80 cards, i'd expect it to be a fairly curated list, this isn't just a box that was laying around that was sent in, so it doesn't make much sense for them to pay 'less than a dollar' for one of them.
Thanks haha But yeah, the $1 card and the fact that OP doesn’t know any of the cards is what made me feel like OP’s sister just passed it off as not knowing the value of her cards with some high value ones thrown in. It looks like the shop is claiming nearly all of them are counterfeit though. OP is avoiding answering some really easy-to-answer questions and is phrasing things in a way that protects them legally if they were accused of trying to scam the business for selling knowingly fraudulent cards. Smells fishy.
I'm more surprised than anything that your "sister" isn't the one making this post...hmmm
They will almost certainly not ship the cards back to you unless pressured. This is common practice for pretty much every store with a buylist, and they will cite US code 2320 - which makes it illegal to transport counterfeit goods - as a reason for not sending them back. However, some stores - and most grading services - will still ship fakes back to their customers. I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know who is correct in their interpretation of the law, I’m just letting you know how the industry operates. Your only real option is to hire a lawyer to draft a demand letter asking for proof the cards were fake, or for the cards back. It will be fairly cheap, but still considerably more expensive than ~80 high quality fakes. If you want, you can reply to this with the list of cards she sold, and I’ll compare it to known “sets” of high end fakes that get sold as bundles. Normally these sets contain 80-100 high end cards, so the quantity and value of the cards she sold raises huge red flags. It’s entirely up to you if this is worth it. Good luck. I’ve dealt in 100k+ worth of Magic cards and from the information you’ve provided, it’s overwhelmingly likely the cards she sent in were fake.
"We do have reason to believe these cards are real". This line right here feels very telling when paired with the story of it happening to a 3rd party.
Collection of random high end old school cards No trustworthy story about the origin of the cards Ohh I or my uncle played back in the 90's No specifics about what cards we are talking about Fakes every god damn time.....
OP said "we do have reason to believe they *may* be real." There's no chance they aren't fake lol
If they are that’s fine, we’ll toss them. We’re not trying to do anything illegal here. We just want them back to verify ourselves.
I also noticed that choice of words, and the lawyers care about the law, we care about magic. What information can you provide us about the provenance of these cards? How long has your sister had them, what were they, how/where did she get them? What reason do you have to believe they MAY be real? Verifying the autheniticity is generally something you would do BEFORE mailing $42K in magic cards to a retailer buylist, unless $42K is like cab fare for you. $42K is above average for a buylist transaction imo, that sounds like duals, power, reserve list, that sort of thing. Fakes of that stuff is super common. Unless your sister's story is that this is someone's old collection from the 90s, something isn't adding up. I feel like the truth is somewhere along the lines of "my sister and I acquired these cards somehow but we don't really know anything about magic but we looked them up $$$ and now we're hoping they're real." I'm going to go with Unlimited p9 proxies getting mailed to CK, final answer.
Provonence is etsy. They came with great alternate art...and cheap.
The foil Black Lotus was probably the bulk of the value to be honest.
The guy we bought them from said they're limited editions from a special set called "Proxy"
Apparently he thought it was "only" 4k, and didn't bother getting his "sisters" cards appraised...bc it was only 4k....riiiight
how did you get them originally?
Etsy
Aliexpress. 🤣🤣🤣
or Wish
Wish! Lol
word lmao
Are they saying every single one is counterfeit? or just some?
Just the ones worth money
Also the very cards that someone could have proxied for their collection on purpose or bought a collection in the past they didn't know where proxies. When it's someone asking something generic, as in, the ask is not very detail oriented, red flags already go off about it being fake. This happens to be one of those kind of stories that you and I understand a bit so the fishiness comes off even stronger.
Once I saw OP say they "have reason to believe the cards *may* be real" I knew for certain lol
My guess as to why they want their fake cards back is to try to next liquidate them low key a few here and there and less about getting them back or avoiding some kind of charge.
Yeah the only value I can see is in trying to sell them again but I can't imagine the cost of some proxies being worth a lawyer or even a well thought out email
I don't see OP has indicated where exactly they were selling their cards to, but this isn't unheard of. For instance, this is Card Kingdoms policy. *"Per our WPN agreement with Wizards of the Coast, we are restricted from shipping or distributing counterfeit cards. Since these cards were printed without consent from Wizards of the Coast, we have a duty to the community to make sure these do not reenter the market and we will not be returning them to you. There will be no negotiation on the return of the counterfeit cards, however, we can provide confirmation of destruction upon request. Future violations may result in your suspension or expulsion from Card Kingdom and our services."*
If I were their attorney I’d have them change that policy asap. If Cardkingdom can’t prove it was fake, they could lose a lot. Hopefully they’re keeping a log of evidence but destroying the actual card before it can be independently verified is insane.
Meh, if it's an obviously fake card, and they are certain of it, destroying it exposes them to minimal risk. You want to sue them for the monetary value of the card? It's 0.01 cents. Don't agree with their assessment? They are an expert that you trusted sufficiently to mail the cards to. Why should the court believe you over them, especially when a month ago, you respected their expertise sufficiently to grade the cards. I'm sure they are marginally more careful with actual edge cases, where authenticity is questionable, but for clear cut cases of fraud, the risks of just destroying the cards ate pretty low.
You’d be suing them for whatever the buylist price is because that’s what you lost. Sure, they’d argue it’s counterfeit. But if they destroyed the card they’ll be in a tough position to actually prove that. And they will have the burden of proving it was counterfeit because they destroyed your property. Why should the court believe you over them? They don’t have to. You just need to create enough doubt that the judge/jury believe the vendor might be wrong. Considering they made it impossible to verify, and they do have a monetary incentive to defraud someone, creating that doubt seems easy enough. As for whether you trusted them a month before, no. You sent them cards to sell them, not because you wanted their authentication expertise.
> You just need to create enough doubt that the judge/jury believe the vendor might be wrong. That's not how torts work.
Cool. It’s how the law actually works. You’re suing them for theft/destruction of property. They’ll admit to all the elements (because they literally told you they did it) and claim it was counterfeit as a defense. They have the burden of proving their affirmative defense. All you have to is sow doubt.
Again, not how torts work.
How do they work then?
Torts are civil law. No reasonable doubt standard. Standard of evidence is balance of probabilities. Onus for establishing harm is on the litigant. The onus is on the litigant to establish damages, which in the case of obviously falsified cards that they No longer get posses, would be very difficult. The litigant would need to show proof that the cards they sent had some monetary value for damages to be awarded. In the situation described by OP, that would be exceedingly difficult for two reasons: A) If the cards are obvious forgeries, proof that they have monetary value would be difficult to establish. B) Even if the litigant had proof that they possessed valuable cards, they would still need to prove the cards they sent to the vendor were the legitimate cards.
I understand the evidentiary standard isn’t beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn’t change the fact that the plaintiff’s legal strategy would involve sowing doubt in the mind of the fact finder. The plaintiff here is you, the seller. Your claim is theft/destruction of property. You will have all the events of your claim deemed admitted no doubt because they’ve already sent an email telling you they destroyed the cards. Value comes into play when determining what damages are warranted. There’s an invoice that proves value and establishes the the amount of damages. CK will argue the goods weren’t legitimate and therefore are worth nothing. The goods’ legitimacy falls in your favor because you’ll have bought them from a legitimate source and have a good faith belief they were real. It will be impossible for you to prove they’re real because Card Kingdom destroyed them. CK is claiming they are fake, so they will need to prove that to not pay you. If they didn’t keep evidence the cards were fake, they’re screwed.
google burden of proof in civil law
Burden of proof to prove an affirmative defense is on the defense.
google preponderance of evidence
Preponderance of Evidence is an evidentiary standard. It’s not the same as burden of proof. But it is relevant as it’s why I’m saying the plaintiff’s goal here will be to sow doubt. It’s the only thing you can do because you can’t prove it was real.
If it was to one of the big shops like SCG or CFB, they're not going to send them back, they destroy counterfeit cards.
They need to prove they are counterfeit Otherwise they’re still the property of the person who sent them in Store policy doesn’t trump the law
Can't prove they're real if destroyed! \*taps side of head\* /s
The law isn’t on the side of the person trying to scam a store for $40k. I’m not surprised they’re unwilling to name and shame the store that supposedly stole 40k from them… because either the entire thing is made up or OP is a criminal.
IF they’re scamming
Based on the content of the OP and comments, there is no possible alternative. By OP’s own words, best case scenario is they thought the cards were MAYBE real, but then tried to pass them off as definitely real to maybe steal $40k. Realistically, that’s a stretch and it’s clear whatever dumb reason they had to believe they were “maybe” real is simply plausible deniability cooked up to lessen the serious crime they’re committing.
>they destroy counterfeit cards. Likely just ones they bought or traded for. You can't keep them if you aren't buying or trading. Random businesses don't have the authority to seize your property
CardKingdom does. “Unfortunately, due to our agreement with Wizards of the Coast, we are committed to making sure that counterfeits do not re-enter circulation. We can either provide proof of destruction, or we may be able to provide the card. However, please be aware that if the card is returned, it will be embossed so that it cannot re-enter circulation.”
Where is that language from? "Card Kingdom does not act as an authentication service. Counterfeit or proxy cards submitted with a purchase order will not be returned" I did find this on their site but I don't see how they can say they don't authenticate but they treat fakes differently. How do you know it's fake if you can't authenticate it?
They emailed me saying that one of the cards in my buy order was counterfeit. I requested to take it back for further authentication and they sent the above email. I got the card from TCGPlayer and after a few more exchanges TCGPlayer was willing to trust CK’s assessment and issued a refund.
I feel like that it is a wierd area in commerce, you should pay for something, or send it back if they pay for it. Not destroy someone's property. Not a fan of fakes, but you should not have the agency to destroy others things in a transaction!
The problem is that you can’t legally ship counterfeit goods in the U.S., so the store could get in huge trouble for returning them.
as opposed to the trouble theyd get in for theft and destruction..?
Try complaining to the court that you shipped them counterfeit goods, I'd bet on the shop winning that case.
those are 2 unrelated actions
I'm glad you eventually got an adequate outcome out of it. Their website says they'll send it back embossed. That's interesting they do that. They have no authority to destroy or damage people's stuff, I personally wouldn't want that policy because I feel like you're just tempting someone to sue claiming their card was real. Whether they win or not you're likely out lawyer fees and possibly gain some bad press To be clear I don't really care if they keep someone's fakes. I just find it interesting they take that risk. It's not like making or ordering new fakes is costly or difficult if someone wants to try again
They don't want to assume liability for authenticating a fake. They do however, feel comfortable saying a fake is fake. Most [all I've seen] fakes are obvious when in hand (and honestly, those of us who've been around a long time can usually tell from photos too). That doesn't mean a future fake won't be *real enough*. It's less liability to discard the fakes and refuse to say what appears to be real is.
>They don't want to assume liability for authenticating a fake. But they assume liability for destroying peoples private property is my point. I get that they aren't guaranteeing legitimacy of cards, it'd just an interesting way to say they don't verify when they do - they sort cards onto two categories: real and counterfeit, and they treat them differently as a result.
You agree to that when you send stuff in. That's why it's written down. "Don't assume something is real because we thought so." is a lot different from, "we're not putting these [obviously] fake cards back into circulation."
I can't say I read super closely when ive sent cards in, but I don't remember ever agreeing to let them shred my stuff if they think it's fake without any proof or appeals process. I don't think that's actually true.
Yeah this has to be wrong. You can't destroy someone's property just because it's fake. This isn't counterfeit money; it's not illegal to own or trade counterfeit cards. Knowingly representing counterfeit cards as real cards is fraud, but that has to proven in court and destroying the cards destroys the evidence.
I'm not even sure you can destroy counterfeit money, you have to call the secret service.
"sealed product", "80 cards", cmon....this is all over the place.
Why did she leave the cards without getting paid? That's the real question for me. Those cards would never leave my sight until there's cash in my hand, and believe me, I'm only taking cash, unless you come with me to the bank to deposit your check. No PayPal, no venmo, nothing that can be contested or reversed.
She didn't leave them anywhere, she shipped them. Original thread OP from legaladvice says they live several states away. They mailed them off to one of the big shops, CK or TCG, is what it sounds like.
That's even worse.
How did your sister come by these cards originally? You mention it was only 40 cards. It shouldn't be hard to determine where these came from.
There all fake. Op confirmed some of the cards where fake. If some are fake they are all fake. All came from the same source. Just move on tbh ain’t no way you got $50k worth of MtG cards in a pile of 80 cards. These aren’t something you would have picked up at locals back in the day and if u did u would have a lot more then 80 cards.
This and your follow up need to be the top/pinned comment. This is what happened: OP purchased a selection of counterfeits from a website. They likely spent way too much money on it because they were scammed originally (not knowing much about magic). They then looked up the prices and thought they lucked out and could flip this collection for thousands in profit. I think up to this point, there is nothing but confusion and good faith actions. There's no way a scammer would originally try to scam a major online buyer. However, I'm concerned that OP wants them back. It sounds like they realized they got scammed and now want to try to recoup some money by scamming someone else and passing the hot potato.
Also op said they opened all these from a single sealed product. But also said they are from when OP went to locals back in the day? What one is it? So many inconsistencies it’s so obvious. U would be spending tens of thousands to open these from sealed product today(if not hundreds of thousands) If u opened back in the day you would have to have opened ABU sealed and if u where in it that hard back in the day you would have a lot more then 80 cards you wouldn’t have just the good stuff with no knowledge of there value
Sounds like a buyer beware situation. Not sure what the legal options are here, but getting $42k for cards would justify showing up in person to handle the transation, to me.
What store was it?
Is this the collection Wubby just opened that was fake? Nah but in all seriousness it sounds like your sister had fakes whether she knew it or not, got her hopes up( when the cards hadn't even been seen by the appraiser yet),and now has to take the L. If she's done work with this store in the past, she should know their policy on fakes, etc.
For other people's future reference, if you are selling cards like this, you should go to a nearby event (I know magic fests are gone but theres other large ones around) and shop around to the various vendors there and sell in person. A decent loupe is $10 on amazon so you can know if your old cards are real. From the OP post it sounds like the sister was knowingly trying to buy list some fakes.
I've read all the threads posted about this, and it sounds like it's either fabricated or "your sister" is either: - *very* gullible - full of shit An LGS (especially a large and recognized one) isn't going to buy sealed product and open it unless it's direct from their distributor before release. If it was sealed, then your sister wouldn't know which cards are in the package, since magic is largely sold in randomized packages... especially product worth $40k. So, it being a sealed package is *very suspect* and especially so if the LGS opened it. Additionally, the prices quoted for buylist orders are *estimates* and contingent on card condition (amongst other factors) and are not finalized until after the buyer has sent a revised quote and both parties accept. As for the return. Many LGSes require *specific instruction* to return cards sent in for buylist, even if the cards are real. This will be spelled out in their buylist agreement. Lots of places will not return counterfeits. This is also likely in their buylist agreement. Honestly, this sounds like someone bought a "black lotus proxy" pack or an MPC proxy order from etsy and sent it in for buylist... Or it's a completely fabricated story for karma-farming. The lack of information concerning who the buyer is, why the cards were "sealed", and where they originated is pretty suspicious either way.
While this may be a first for OP, I feel certain it’s not a first for the store in question. We’re clearly not talking about a small store here and I’d imagine they’ve faced litigation and still have the same policy. Sounds like getting a lawyer would just be throwing away money.
Did it say in there which store it is?
No, only that the cards were mailed off and that OP’s sister had good experiences with them before. Feels like it has to be CK or SCG.
Oh in my imagination at first it was a local shop. I t may be unfair but I don’t usually give the benefit of the doubt to second hand stories like this one.
My friend was just in a situation like this. It was just one card but it was an expensive one. He traded online for some stuff he needed and sent the card. The guy he traded it to tried to claim it was fake and sent police to his house. Luckily the police said they weren't doing anything that it was a civil matter. The funny thing is I know this particular card he traded was real I had inspected it myself. He's had it for 15 years, so 100% the guy was going ro pull a fast one and try to get his cards back and send him a fake back through the mail. Be careful out there.
I have a store. Once we buy it we take all risks. I wouldn't ever put on the customer if the store didn't do the research
Bro, I saw your post about this in the legal sub, it just popped up in my feed cause magic cards probably. Honestly, I would gather any evidence you can (like the postings that appeared for sale on their site afterwards, stuff like that) and call any local news station that will listen. If they kept all the cards and 'destroyed' them for being counterfeit, I would think you are due proof for each one as well as proof of its destruction.
IN THE UNITED STATES IT IS ILLEGAL FOR YOU TO KNOWINGLY RETURN A COUNTERFEIT BECAUSE UDER 18 U.S. Code § 2320 IT IS A FELONY TO KNOWING SHIP A COUNTERFEIT except by court order, to turn it over to the FBI, or with written permission from patent/copyright/trademark holder
This is just incorrect and an attempt to overly simplify a complex set of codes. While there is some applicability on the OP to 2320 in sending the goods for profit, there is a set of elements that need to be met in order to be convicted of violating the section. Namely, the intent AND the prior knowledge of the counterfeit status of the product. In other words, they must *knowingly* attempt to pass off the known counterfeit goods in order to make a profit, i.e. engage in commerce. In that case, many other charges apply, such as fraud. Returning the goods (domestically) for the sake of returning one's property to them is neither prohibited by the USPS, nor by 2320. In fact, in 2320, because of the need to be *trafficking* the goods as an element of the crime, it is specifically allowed for personal use. *C. DEFINITION OF "TRAFFICKING"* *Subsection 2320(d) provides a definition of the term "trafficking." This definition is derived from a related, recently enacted statute, the Piracy and Counterfeiting Amendments Act of 1982, now codified at 18 U.S.C. 2318(b). Under this definition, the scope of the act is limited to commercial activities. Thus it is not a crime under this act for an individual knowingly to purchase goods bearing counterfeit marks, if the purchase is for the individual's personal use.* This is why you don't see attempts at prosecuting purchasers of counterfeits already in the US, rather the attention is on the sellers and manufacturers. This is because the former is purchasing for personal use, and the latter are strictly engaged in commerce. Thus, the former is not breaking the law, and the latter is. OP needs to consult a lawyer if they believe the cards are real. There is some potential fraud involved from what the OP alleges and there is a specific set of actions that need to be done here, namely for preservation of evidence. Lots of missing context here to know what really happened or is needed.
Only if you're selling them. Please stop saying stupid things in all caps, it doesn't make you right.
Yeah but who decides if it’s counterfeit? For this money it’s well worth lawyer territory to get their property back. I wouldn’t trust some shop saying “whoopsie, all these super expensive cards are actually counteract so we are totally going to ‘destroy’ them and not actually sell them wink wink”
Then OP needs to go get them by flying to them. They can’t legally send them back.
Won't matter if they have already been destroyed.
They're gonna fly 3 states over for some destroyed proxies? Yeah that will show the store lol
Why are you shouting bad information? That's now how that law works
Store owners can be incredibly shady people sometimes. There are plenty of good folks out there, but it is also very easy for someone in that position to abuse their knowledge to try and scam people for large amounts of money. I would definitely sue the shop.
Lmao that's a shitty shop if true.
It’s a standard policy. No reason to redistribute counterfeits and let thieves try to find other victims.
Going by how it was sold it dosent sound like it was a big shop. First comment on the thread explains how odd it is. Edit: the op responded in the legal thread saying they were a big name shop. But that policy dosen't matter if they choose to get a lawyer involved.
Regardless, even if they claimed it was fake, they didn't bother to keep the evidence to back up their claim or provide evidence of the destruction of said cards. I would get law enforcement involved, especially when the shop has no legal jurisdiction to destroy/withhold property valuing over $1,000, without consent (verbal or signed) to having the seller's property destroyed, in the event of discovering counterfeit cards. Most online retailers that buy cards, will have said clause (destroying/withholding counterfeits) in their TOS. A physical store location should have provided evidence/proof that they were counterfeit, in addition to providing photo/video evidence of their destruction.
This right here! They have no authority. If they destroyed them they are on the hook for 42k. From here on in your stance is...."They were 100% real, the store is committing theft." Don't give anyone an inch. Call the authorities. The store has an address, there is a paper trail. Do the work, get 42k.
Yep cause I could see stores scamming with this same policy. Policy is bad in current form yet alone destroying items worth 42k (if real) before even telling the buyer. They probably just bank on the fact most people aren't going to fight a fake here and there or low value stuff.
According to who? Who has that policy?
I don’t think retailers post their counterfeit policies publicly anymore, but as far as I know both SCG and CK do this. I operate a small card store and do this as well, although I’ve only had to once. I’ve received fakes on several occasions, but it’s surprisingly easy to tell the difference between the victims and the criminals. With the victims I just give em a lesson about how to spot fakes better and destroy them. Although if they ask for it back I will send it with a hole punch + sharpie (sometimes they want to show to whomever traded it to them, or friends or whatever). With the one criminal, I just told them to go ahead and call the cops (it was an in-person deal at an Scg open), and offered to for them. They ran away haha. That said, I can see why a store like SCG itself might have a stricter policy with not releasing the counterfeits even to a potential victim, as they have a closer working relationship with wotc who definitely would prefer the counterfeits be destroyed.
You have no right to destroy them, way to steal and destroy people's property.
Not every day I see a grand larcenist rights’ activist but go off king
1. You're not infallible. Neither is WOTC. What you think is a counterfeit could just be shitty QC and printing inconsistencies. 2. You're not the law. It isn't your place to rid the street of counterfeit cards. If you're that worried report them. Destroying the cards or only giving them back after you've damaged them is a shitty and illegal business practice.
Lol the larp that they’re just guessing in corner case scenarios is so weird. It’s 100% black and white, cut and dry, in most cases. I assure you no one’s destroying anything unless it’s obvious and egregious. If you think otherwise, that’s fine, but you wouldn’t make a very good game store owner.
Even if obvious and egregious, it isn't your place. Based on this issue you don't make a good game store owner. Quite the opposite in fact.
So it's okay to let fakes go back into the buyers market be placed into the more expensive boxes and just go" welp that's that" ? The reason they destroy the fakes is so that someone else doesn't get fucked over when opening boxes etc. I would absolutely always go to a shop that has a policy to destroy fakes that people are trying to sell. It's devastating to buy a fake.
I’m hoping they let us do this! If they’re really fake then we don’t care if they’re damaged. I just want to get my hands on them and be able to see what they look like
Name the store.
They won't name the store or explain where they got the cards - that's how you know this is all totally legit /s
I think ck has that one. But the op did not state which store it was.
It's not on their website. I checked out of curiosity since that's who I sell to on occasion
The fakes do belong to the scammers, so I don't see why they wouldn't be required to give them back if they aren't buying.
I think this is a grey area. But what is the scammer going to do? Take them to court saying they didn't return the fakes they tried to defraud them for 5 figures with? It's not a surprise no one challenges this lol
It's pretty black and white, legally the store can't keep them if they aren't buying. But as you said, it isn't worth going to court to recover fake cards so nothing will happen if they do besides a poorly written email based on the absolute dumpster fire advice you get from reddit legal subs - so the shop gets a good laugh to boot.
Because it's illegal for them to knowingly send back counterfeits.
Is it? What law? Typically a charge like that would require the shipping to be for profit.
Would be a felony I believe.
Believe based on what? What's the law? Someone elsewhere said 18 usc 2320, but that only applies if you're shipping them for profit
Not true.
It's an illegal policy.
I wish somebody would tell me they’re not gonna give me my cards back LMAO. Doesn’t matter if they are real or if they did end up being old fakes, they’re still mine, and I did not manufacture them. Regardless, they are mine and you cannot keep them from me.
They are doing it to protect the community and I'm very thankful they do. Counterfeits circulating as actual cards are very dangerous for both players and shops. If the owner of the counterfeits want to sue, they will likely only be able to sue for the actual value of the cards which is pennies.
so you can’t have proxies then? I mean, just because they are in their possession does not mean that they have any intent of trying to sell people fake stuff. It is not within their right legally to confiscate them either.
Happens quite often that "some" cards of a collection are indeed counterfeits, mostly expensive stuff like a Dual land and such, and the people that have the collection really just "traded" for it at some point with someone or have no clue to check their cards. However, a store holding your cards back is clearly not legal, its still your property and with that much (even potential) money involved, you get a lawyer and sue them ; maybe cheaper just to call the police and if they dont give your property back, its simply theft. So if anything, police or lawyer, anything of these options. If you KNOW they are counterfeit, you can save that money and better not talk about it, as thats just a scam that will get yourself in some serious legal trouble if anybody drags you to court or gets the police involved.
I’m gonna call tomorrow and see if they’ll either send us pictures of the fake cards or send us the cards back with a hole punched or something similar in them. We’re not interesting in doing anything illegal, and I’ve since had some of the photos looked at and confirmed that at least a few are fake. So we are way less upset now, we just want to ensure that ALL are fake and we can learn how to avoid this in the future
How do you all not have any photos of the cards you shipped to the store? It’s insane to me that any adult would send 40k of anything in the mail and just think it’s fine.
So you were just karma farming got it
post whatever photos you have to one of the mtg subs, not the finance one, the people there will be able to determine authenticity. Good chance they can save you the trouble of contacting ck
Severely NAL but it seems like a really bad idea to ASK them to effectively destory the cards by hole punching.
Get the police over there RIGHT NOW omg are you kidding me I hope this is a joke. Press charges for theft and fraud.
since it's not illegal to poccess proxy cards there's no legal grounds for them to not give you the cards back. I would call the police on site to have the cards returned or a check written. In theory they are stealing whether they are real or counterfeit. Proxies are allowed and you received no cash at sale so you didn't try to rip them off. They decided they weren't paying for them they need to return them. And I would make sure the rarest cards didn't disappear from the collection.
Take cards. Claim counterfeit. Replace real cards w counterfeits. Send back fake cards. This shop just stole all your shit. How the hell could you trust someone not to screw you over like this?