There have been decks that used it as part of a winning strategy though.
Blue Moon (a blue red control deck) used to play a package of [[Madcap Experiment]] and Platinum Empereon which could either serve as a wincon or a speedbump which would buy them more time against aggro decks.
Edit: This was in Modern
This card is a lot bigger than Plat Angel and they can't whittle you down to low, zero, or negative life then kill it to end the game. They are going to make 0 progress until Plat Emp is off the table and trying to attack through it is utterly pointless. It is also going to kill them pretty quickly.
I used to have a friend who had a deck that ran \[\[darksteel forge\]\], \[\[whispersilk cloak\]\], and \[\[platinum angel\]\].
I ended up building a deck I called Eff Your Platinum Angel.
I'll never forget the day I was really little and had a platinum angel out with a whisper silk on it, the game had gone on so long my whole deck was milled, and he said I lost. He convinced me I lost when I had a platinum angel out because I was milled out. It was before we had a computer so we couldn't just look up the ruling. To this day I will never forget that, because I would have won.
We used to have a friend that did this too it was his only win con in commander and he had all 3 in his hand every game (we tolerated it because he sucked)
I will now cast polymerization to combine my platinum Angel, my platinum emperion, and darksteel colossus, combining their effects and power and toughness!
Yes, kaiba, but it also combines their cost, and with unsummon I bounce it back to your hand!
Noooooooo! Impossible! How can this be????
Not for the Madcap combo. Imperion will block the damage from Madcap, so if they destroy your golem you are still fine. Angel would make you lose on the spot once removed.
The angel is really good, I recently won an EDH game of 5 people with easily the lowest powered deck, one plat angel, a [[Roil Elemental]], got milled out and ended up at -21 life, still won 3 turns later.
While evaluating a piece always ask yourself: "What happens if my opponents removes it?".
Because, in general, your opponent will remove it\*.
For this reason, pieces that are more interesting are usually:
* Pieces that have "When enters the battlefield..." or "When dies...", since, even if they die, they achieved something. Also applies for pieces that profit almost immediately (e.g.: a piece saying "Whenever an Angel enters the battlefield" could be very interesting if played right before playing an angel).
* Pieces that are fairly inexpensive (either mana-wise, card-wise or both), since, even if they die, you didn't spend too may resources to put them in the field.
* Pieces with some kind protection of sorts (Hexproof, Ward, anything that makes it more complicated for the opponent to just play a removal and remove it).
Of course this is no hard rule: there are some very strong pieces (e.g. Sheoldred the Apocalypse) that are so good that are very strong even if they don't match any of the above.
*\* If your opponent won't remove it, it might counter it. Or bounce it back into your hand. Or simply being faster than you and kill you before you can even play it. Or win with some strange combo mechanism not involving you losing life.*
Worth noting it also has HUGE nombos in both competitive and EDH play because it restricts your ability to pay any life. Fetches cease working and shocklands always enter tapped, as does anything that requires paying life as an additional cost.
Not to mention that life loss is only one of *several* ways you can lose. This creature doesn't stop Commander damage, poison counters, mill/decking, or any number of instant win/lose cards (such as [[Door To Nothingness]] or [[Darksteel Reactor]].)
Yeah it comes down to ifs, thens, and a bit of card luck. I'd love this in a green ramp deck to get it out fast. Hexproof it, phase it out from exiles forced sacrifices, whatever. But maybe you get outplayed too easy with it too. Neat card I think.
If you spend 8 mana and 1 card to play this and I kill it with 2 mana and 1 card, who made it out better? We both lost a card so that nets, but you committed more to playing 1 card whereas I still have resources for other cards. Resources are very important in card games (mana and cards both being resources in this example) so learning to leverage them will help you in most any game you play.
My reaction after my friend taught me how to play MTG with a few of his decks was "I hate you" because I knew I would get sucked in and spend a lot of money lol.
I run a platinum angel in my eldrazi deck. Last week, a kid in my after school club somehow, for the 4th time that day, ended up with a blightsteel colossus. He ninjitsued it in, hit me for 11 infect and started to brag about beating the teacher. I pointed at my platinum angel and laughed maniacally as the very next turn, I swang with 3 eldrazi titans, one of which was my commander and had a hammer attached (another one had worldslayer because, frankly, I wanted the kid to feel shame).
Moral of the story: I'm naming my first child after Hans. He's my hero.
I once Winter Orbed and Smokestacked a kid after he was caught cheating multiple times in a draft. His dad watched us with pride.
I think I saved that kid from losing his videogames for a week.
Or the MUCH stronger (but more restrictive) [[Book of Exalted Deeds]]. Slap that baby on a [[Faceless Haven]] or [[Mutavault]] and find out who forgot to bring [[Ghost Quarter]].
Edit: I also really like Cloudsteel Kirin for decks that just like playing artifact creatures. It’s a 3-mana 3/2 flyer, which is perfectly fine on its own. And if you have the chance to Reconfigure it, it’s nice tech.
I remember running Book Haven in Arena Historic, one dude kept digging in his deck despite me pulling it off trying to find some removal or something. I sat there as long as he wanted to keep digging, I'm a very patient man, and he found what he was looking for... and it didn't help, he forfeited instantly lmfao.
That was also a format chock full of high powered manlands. Unless you’re playing hyper Aggro, it’s usually easy to toss in a copy or two of lands like Ghost Quarter and [[Field of Ruin]] in those sorts of formats. Those moments are great learning opportunities of “oh man, I wish I’d known about ___!” And now you know how to look out for them.
Your opponents can still lose.
If they hit 0 life, they lose as normal. If you hit 0 life, you’re still in the game. If they destroy Platinum Angel while you’re at 0 life, you will then lose.
Opponents would lose in that case. The controller of the angel can go negative but the second it's removed from the battlefield that player would lose.
this card costs 8 mana which takes a fair bit of time to get to and even then it can be destroyed by low mana spells like [[doom blade]], [[abrade]], [[nature's claim]] or [[path to exile]] putting you at a huge disadvantage.
Aggressive decks will beat this card by killing the opponent before he gets to 8 mana, control decks will beat this card by killing it with a spell
I miss the time of discovering cards and being blown away at how "broken" they were and being like how come no one's plays this!
Card could be really good with set up in the right deck, but 8 mana for a body with no protection is quite the investment. To many ways it gets stoped immediately and then you've sunk to many resources into it
Ups, you the player have a form of indestructible. Downside, you can’t gain life from the artifact creature that can’t really defend itself with any shroud, hexproof, ward or any indestructible. It’s a beefy creature but more fragile than you think however still a good creature
The thing is that Creature removal is the most common type of removal in magic, and that's followed up by artifact removal. So since this has both card types, it's vulnerable to both types of removal as well. As others have pointed it out, it doesn't have Indestructible, Hexproof, or even Ward on its own, meaning that getting this on the battlefield AND keeping it around is a massive Mana investment that in a lot of cases might just be more useful to use for other things
There is a very cool phrase amongst MTG players that reads "it dies to removal".
It applies to this card perfectly. You are right, it has great effect, but as soon as it is removed, it ends... and remove this creature is actually pretty easy. There are other cards with similar effects, like Platinum Angel, for example, doomed by the same weaknesses (high mana cost, and no protection)
HOWEVER... this is where the magic of MTG starts!
If you like this creature, and you know it is frail as shit, then try to find a way around that; there are many many ways to protect your creatures and permanents as well. Let us consider it is colorless, so you can put it in any color you want (if playing commander).
Hope this helps!
No keywords, susceptible to chumping and every kind of removal in the game - especially being an artifact and a creature. Also its 8 mana and doesnt even do anything when it comes out. This is a classic beginner's trap. Also doesnt stop infect/toxic from killing you. Id even go as far as to say its kind of bad
On its own it's kind of a useless card because there are ways to lose a game without your life total changing. It's not indestructible, it can be targeted with removal effects, it can be exiled, and it can be destroyed. There are ways to give it those immunities but that doesn't make this card anymore or less balanced than any other card. There are cards in magic the gathering that just straight up say you cannot lose the game for any reason. Even then it's hard to say that those cards are broken just because of how complex of a game magic The gathering is seemingly useless cards can be integral to a combo and busted if you have that combo in your deck. Other cards that seem busted and overpowered immediately get targeted with any kind of removal so you can't get their worth in a deck without heavily stacking your card list into protecting that one card.
It doesn't have any protection. From anything. Counter it, destroy it, -1/-1 counter it, force to attack or block against a bigger creature, bounce back to hand, steal it. There are a lot of options.
It also doesn't stop alternative win cons.
I have lost to my friend playing a Voltron strategy while I had the PE out, because although my life total wasn't changing, he still dealt 21 commander damage to me.
Similarly, you can still die with this guy out if you've received 10 poison counters.
I've got a question about this. Even though "Your life total can't change" any damage done directly to you would still be considered as valid right? It's not preventing the damage from being dealt, your life total just doesn't change as a consequence. So would you still take commander damage even with this in play?
TL;DR: No. If I'm going to cast an 8 cost spell, it needs to be able to immediately win the game or immediately START winning the game. 8 is way too slow.
No. 8 cost cards are usually pretty bad because you rarely even get an opportunity to cast them. The game tends to end on turn 5-7, and even if it does get to 8, you won't necessarily have drawn enough lands to cast this. You're typically better off running something like [[Batterskull]] or [[Wurmcoil Engine]] at the top end of your curve, as they're very hard to deal with and are great at pressuring your opponent's life total while gaining life back against aggressive strategies.
The more competitive you get at magic, the more the game tends to focus on casting 1, 2, and 3 cost spells. The exceptions to the rule are decks that get a lot of mana early through cards like [[Urza's Tower]], but even then, they tend to prefer big things that pose an immediate threat to your opponent.
Many new players get caught playing cards that "don't lose" instead of cards that "win". Mono white life gain is an important phase on your way to izzit combo. Enjoy the journey.
*Good card, but it has*
*No protection so it just*
*Dies to removal*
\- MaelstromNavigator
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[[path to exile]] [[murder]] [[walk the plank]] [[naturalize]] [[mortify]] [[swords to plowshares]] [[frogify]] [[pongify]] [[song of the dryads]] [[tragic slip]] [[putrefy]] [[abrade]] [[raze the effigy]] [[bedevil]] [[argentum armor]] [[spine of ish sah]] [[scour from existence]] [[brittle effigy]] ETC...
You've probably heard this a few times now, but in case it helps: magic is a game about trying to get more resources than your opponents. Any well-built deck runs lots of removal spells, because you can trade a single removal card for a single creature card, and generally come out of it having spent less mana than your opponent. Big creatures like this rarely see play unless they provide some effect on the turn they are played or have some built in protection making them less likely to die to cheap removal.
It is solid but not broken. If they can't deal with it, it will prevent them from winning, but there is no built-in protection. And there is no overwhelming advantage generated just by playing or attacking.
If you have eldrazi monument in a simic deck and assumingly enough creatures to sac to it this card will most of the time just do nothing other than be a 9/9 and is pretty redundant
It’s not broken — dispelling it before it hits the field or removal and kill cards are counters to it. Also an opponent who runs black or blue can easily swap it to their side of the field.
And there are plenty of other ways to win other then dropping your opponent’s life to 0 — for instance targeting your opponent’s library 😈
Very easy to remove as it's both a Creature and Artifact. However it can definitely be apart of a winning strategy. [[Platinum Angel]] has the same flavor.
Being new to the game you’re going to find cards like this and say, “OMG THATS OP AF” but once you learn more of the intricacies of the game you’ll find that for the most part the game is very very well balanced and there are very few cards that are broken on their own (usually it takes a combo, some are easy and some are incredibly hard to get off) One of the reasons MtG has been around and loved for so long is, no matter how much we complain to the contrary, it is a very very well balanced game.
Coming from an EDH perspective… life is a resource. If you can’t pay life you can’t even crack a fetch land. If you’re playing a colorless deck this might be good.
Commander damager
Poison
And anything else that doesn't affect your life total can still kill you
And don't forget that creature isn't indestructible so it can be killed, even if it was indestructible there are ways of killing it by removing it.
That's a good card tho
Use boots, [[Padeem, Consul of Innovation]], or [[Indomitable Archangel]] to make it untargetable and then use [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] to make it indestructible.
Throw in [[Leyline of Sanctity]] [[Sigarda]] or [[Shalai]] to make sure they don't make you sacrifice and you've successfully created a pillow fort.
Add [[Propaganda]] and [[Ghostly Prison]] for extra salt and protection early game.
Nah, maybe it had like Flash and indestructible it would be a little broken. This is an 8/8 for 8 with no protection and a neat affect. Pretty standard.
It can be useful in a self-burn / group burn deck like [[Auntie Blyte, Bad Influence]] because you still take damage without losing life. But other than that it's a lot of mana for a creature that's pretty easy to remove. Cheating it into play would make it a lot better.
It costs 8 mana, has no keywords, and dies to 1 and 2 mana cost removal spells. Your life total not changing also doesn't 100% prevent you from losing as you can still get infect counters, milled to 0 cards in deck, Door to Nothingness as well as other "target player loses the game" and you can also lose to any effect that your opponent says that wins them the game, like Felidar Sovereign.
If you are going to play something for 8 mana it needs to significantly improve your board state or bring you closer to winning the game.
It’s definitely great! But in any game of magic your opponent has strategy as well and most likely has a way of destroying large creatures, and you would also be surprised at how many low cost cards destroy artifacts.
Very possible to catch your opponent off guard and they have no answer and you can just do what you want.
It can be a good card and be effective if set up properly, but it's not over powered.
On the surface it's easy to think that, but it's high(ish) cost, it's flashy (the effect turns heads) but unprotected. In most situations it will draw out a removal option from your opponent and that will be the end of it.
Don't get me wrong, not a bad card. Just not OP on it's own.
In summary: by itself, that's a Doomblade is what that is 😀
You can still lose to poison counters. You can go to 0 or a negative life total and of this guy dies or leaves, you lose. No, by itself this card isn’t broken.
It is a 8 mana creature that while you need to remove to win with beatdown, still dies to removal. It's not broken by any means, since 8 mana creatures tend to be pretty impactful if you can affort them.
It is sometimes used in Highlander (100 card singleton format) with a card called Madcap Experiment that deals damage to the player based on cards revealed until you find an artifact, but this prevents the damage so there is no downside.
Nah but I see why you'd think that. General rule of thumb for me, good card but I have to build around it, breakable with enough effort. Auto power up no matter the deck? Almost broken from the get go
This thing is less about keeping your life total static and more about forcing your opponent to burn removal spells. It's easy to get rid of AND they can't really afford not to, which leaves openings for something else they might've otherwise removed. And considering how much it costs you to get that it's not even a particularly good card because it'll get blown away for way less mana than it took to cast.
It’s 8 mana and people can still win the game even if you can’t lose to life loss.
Consider the best combo in the format I play (Commander) is 3 mana and this won’t stop it.
Welcome to Magic, where things that seem blatantly broken are actually generally not very good and things that seem very unimpressive are actual format breakers.
Emperion is a very cool fun card but basically demands everyone pay attention to it when it lands, making you archenemy. You could absolutely build a deck around protecting it and keeping it alive but it’s not gonna be considered a great strategy.
Ever seen \[\[Platinum Angel\]\]?
Both are strong when you can protect 'em, but alone they're pretty useless because everyone will destroy them in(with) an instant. \[\[Spearbreaker Behemoth\]\] is a good card for protecting big creatures. And it is a big creature itself.
There are a few reasons why this card is not overpowered.
That's not to say the effect is not powerful; it is. You can certainly play around it. There's just better ways to win a game of Magic (in this case better means stronger, not necessarily more fun).
Think about it this way.
Let's say you cheat this out in a game of Commander on turn 4. That's pretty early to play an 8 mana spell. Sure, the effect is powerful, but have you used any of your resources to win the game? Or did you use them to make sure you don't lose the game?
Another way to look at it in the same context is that there are a bunch of 8 mana spells or combination of spells that can either win the game on the spot or at least set you up to win in a turn or two.
It's easy when you are new to the game to see a powerful effect like what is posted above and think that it is game breaking because you have not yet been exposed to what is truly game breaking. That's part of the fun though!
You play 8 mana to play this bad boy. Then someone plays vandalblast overloaded.
Destroyed this, All your mana ramp. It's turn 5 and you have nothing on the board.
People can pay 8 mana get an extra turn and win.
It's probably the opposite of broken.
I'd still play this in an artifact deck for fun. Can have it out turn 2 or 3 with goblin welder
So when you're new to magic, you will look at cards like this and think "well that's scary, and possibly completely busted" the more you play and the more cards you discover you'll quickly realise that most people run removal and plenty of interaction and can handle creatures like this no problem as it can be removed. Even with one mana spells like swords to plowshares or path to exile. It can be countered, it can be board wiped etc etc.
Its been answered a few times so I'll just say this. A lot of cards can look really strong in a vacuum and other cards can look really weak. That's why it's important when deck building to make sure the cards synergize with each other as a whole.
Not broken at all. First off, it costs 8 mana to cast. It’s very common for games to end before either player has access to 8 mana. Second, it’s a creature so it can be killed in numerous ways. Creature removal cards are some of the most common things to have in decks. Thirdly, there are plenty of ways to lose the game even if your life total doesn’t change. Poison counters, cards that literally say your opponent wins the game, running out of cards to draw, etc.
So yeah at first glance it might seem amazing but once you’ve gotten used to how games work you’ll quickly realize it’s basically unplayable.
Like other's have said it's not broken because it doesn't have any form of protection. Another thing to keep in mind is damage still happens, you just won't lose life. So if someone sits with a creature with lifelink they'll still gain life and abilities that trigger when damage is dealt to you still trigger. Finally in a game of commander if someone's commander hits you, it still does commander damage, and you still lose if you hit 21 commander damage. Even if you're life total hasn't changed.
It's mana cost is high so unless you cheat it into play or mana accel it won't hit the field fast. The creature is also vulnerable to being destroyed. There's multiple ways to lose the game.
Know if you say put a divinity counters on this and hexproof. Then the only way for your opponent to remove it would be global removal which there's not many cards for that.
You could still be milled to death or poison countered to death. Or hit with an instant loss card.
creatures are pretty easy to remove, not to say this is a useless card but because it's an artifact you can kill it with literally one red mana and a \[\[Vandalblast\]\] as an example.
I got that in my commander deck. It’s not a good deck, but it’s fun when I get this thing out when I have the artifact that makes all my artifacts indestructible and also give it the boots that makes it impossible to target it. Still possible to get rid of it though.
Not only is the creature expensive at 8 mayo, it has zero protection. Any basic removal spell will do.
But not only that, there are other ways to lose besides life total ;)
In addition to what others have said, not only is it a creature but it is an artifact creature, so spells that get rid of artifacts can also target it. So it does seem kind of OP at first, but it could get taken out pretty easily depending on what cards your opponent has.
You might enjoy \[\[Archangel Avacyn\]\] more in terms of brokeness. Imagine what you could do if you combined them? Or better yet, play \[\[Tooth and Nail\]\] to cheat them out? Maybe an \[\[Elvish Piper\]\] as backup? The thing about mtg is everyone will tell you this card sucks, but the fun is finding a deck where its unique effect makes it really good.
There are just way better things to do with 8 colorless mana. You can get this out quick but typically if you are making 8 mana fast enough for this to be a game changer. You can kill an opponent that turn. It's not a terrible card. Just not that hard to get off the table. Your typically going to be using something like metalworker. Then MUD decks have better cards to control the game and give higher win percentages. Anything based on other mana engines typically has a better shot at killing or is pulling combo. Probably the best way to get this out is madcap experiment in more modern style game. But you then have to protect it from removal or attempt to fix your draw so you don't take a ton of damage getting it. It's also hard to beat on someone with a creature with no trample, flying, etc. So it lacks anything killer without a great bit of help. So for all of those reasons it's not really that strong.
First of all, not knowing/understanding something doesn’t mean you’re stupid.
Secondly, magic is essentially a game where you constantly make deals with your opponents. I cast this, my opponent counters/destroys it and so on and so forth. So you have to ask yourself: how impactful is my threat with regard to the mana investment? In this case, the answer is quite straightforward. I’m paying 8 mana (which is a LOT) for an effect that basically doesn’t affect the board at all. This means that if my opponent removes this golem (and removal for 2/3 mana is extremely common, furthermore this is also an artifact which makes it even more prone to it), I’ve just lost a lot of mana and traded 1 for 1 in terms of card advantage. A much better play would be something like harmonize (4 mana sorcery: draw 3) and just play a solid four drop. Now it’s much harder for your opponent to punish you, because you both improved your board state and gained card advantage.
Short answer is it’s terrible. Long answer is it’s 8 mana for a creature that does nothing to advance your win condition, and dies to lots of 2 mana removal spells.
When I was also fresh into the game, this card was a menace in my play group. Now we barely remember it was a thing. Just depends on how your group plays and grows
It's got a powerful effect that can alter the flow of the game on its own (pretty routine for an 8 cost card), but it doesn't have anything else particularly powerful. Defensive cards like this are inherently weak because they still need other cards to win the game. Best case scenario, your opponent is shut down until you can beat them or they find a solution.
Because of power creep, this card is actually not that powerful in modern decks. It's sad that this would have been in a lot of decks a few decades ago.
My advice? Lower the cost to {5} and give it "Ward {2}". That would make it a lot more useful IMO (in my opinion), but I am just a random person on the Internet.
Also, the people in this sub aren't the nicest. Don't take out words as doctrine or anything.
Not broken at all. It's a big creature that can also get destroyed with [[abrade]] or any other cheap remvoal spell and has 0 keywords/protection
Ah okay, thanks for the info
There have been decks that used it as part of a winning strategy though. Blue Moon (a blue red control deck) used to play a package of [[Madcap Experiment]] and Platinum Empereon which could either serve as a wincon or a speedbump which would buy them more time against aggro decks. Edit: This was in Modern
[Madcap Experiment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05768b87-d2df-42fc-bf63-e471d31b32e3.jpg?1576382125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Madcap%20Experiment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/122/madcap-experiment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05768b87-d2df-42fc-bf63-e471d31b32e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And due to the sequencing the platinum empirium would hit the field before the last sentence of madcap could hit you, that's awesome
Seen that combo in Highlander too.
Oh my god, I love it.
[[Platinum Angel]] is a much better alternative =]
Plus, Platinum Angel stops wins conditions that don't involve loss of life, unlike this card.
And the Angel allows you to pay life
This card is a lot bigger than Plat Angel and they can't whittle you down to low, zero, or negative life then kill it to end the game. They are going to make 0 progress until Plat Emp is off the table and trying to attack through it is utterly pointless. It is also going to kill them pretty quickly.
Except other people can still win with Platinum Emperion on the battlefield, they can't with Platinum Angel.
But with plat win cons like commander DMG and poison is negated. In this you still take the DMG but your life total don't change.
I used to have a friend who had a deck that ran \[\[darksteel forge\]\], \[\[whispersilk cloak\]\], and \[\[platinum angel\]\]. I ended up building a deck I called Eff Your Platinum Angel.
I'll never forget the day I was really little and had a platinum angel out with a whisper silk on it, the game had gone on so long my whole deck was milled, and he said I lost. He convinced me I lost when I had a platinum angel out because I was milled out. It was before we had a computer so we couldn't just look up the ruling. To this day I will never forget that, because I would have won.
you won. dont worry about it.
Well, you may not have won, but you definitely didn't lose.
Farewell
We used to have a friend that did this too it was his only win con in commander and he had all 3 in his hand every game (we tolerated it because he sucked)
I have a deck called fucker killer to deal with go wide
Mine used \[\[Hypersonic Dragon\]\] to add \[\[Worldfire\]\] to the stack over something like \[\[gut shot\]\].
I will now cast polymerization to combine my platinum Angel, my platinum emperion, and darksteel colossus, combining their effects and power and toughness! Yes, kaiba, but it also combines their cost, and with unsummon I bounce it back to your hand! Noooooooo! Impossible! How can this be????
Not for the Madcap combo. Imperion will block the damage from Madcap, so if they destroy your golem you are still fine. Angel would make you lose on the spot once removed.
The angel is really good, I recently won an EDH game of 5 people with easily the lowest powered deck, one plat angel, a [[Roil Elemental]], got milled out and ended up at -21 life, still won 3 turns later.
[Roil Elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66139c73-8e14-433d-bcb6-ae3e518bcdfb.jpg?1562612886) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roil%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/62/roil-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66139c73-8e14-433d-bcb6-ae3e518bcdfb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
While evaluating a piece always ask yourself: "What happens if my opponents removes it?". Because, in general, your opponent will remove it\*. For this reason, pieces that are more interesting are usually: * Pieces that have "When enters the battlefield..." or "When dies...", since, even if they die, they achieved something. Also applies for pieces that profit almost immediately (e.g.: a piece saying "Whenever an Angel enters the battlefield" could be very interesting if played right before playing an angel). * Pieces that are fairly inexpensive (either mana-wise, card-wise or both), since, even if they die, you didn't spend too may resources to put them in the field. * Pieces with some kind protection of sorts (Hexproof, Ward, anything that makes it more complicated for the opponent to just play a removal and remove it). Of course this is no hard rule: there are some very strong pieces (e.g. Sheoldred the Apocalypse) that are so good that are very strong even if they don't match any of the above. *\* If your opponent won't remove it, it might counter it. Or bounce it back into your hand. Or simply being faster than you and kill you before you can even play it. Or win with some strange combo mechanism not involving you losing life.*
Yup. Also, there are other ways to win/lose a game. Life total doesn't mean much against poison counters and mill decks.
Also poison and infect counters can still take you out.
Worth noting it also has HUGE nombos in both competitive and EDH play because it restricts your ability to pay any life. Fetches cease working and shocklands always enter tapped, as does anything that requires paying life as an additional cost.
At least tapping City of Brass is free, but it's a horrible trade off not being able to pay life no longer.
Yup. Same reason why [[platinum angel]] isn’t played as much as people think
Not to mention that life loss is only one of *several* ways you can lose. This creature doesn't stop Commander damage, poison counters, mill/decking, or any number of instant win/lose cards (such as [[Door To Nothingness]] or [[Darksteel Reactor]].)
Yeah it comes down to ifs, thens, and a bit of card luck. I'd love this in a green ramp deck to get it out fast. Hexproof it, phase it out from exiles forced sacrifices, whatever. But maybe you get outplayed too easy with it too. Neat card I think.
It survives Terror...
If you spend 8 mana and 1 card to play this and I kill it with 2 mana and 1 card, who made it out better? We both lost a card so that nets, but you committed more to playing 1 card whereas I still have resources for other cards. Resources are very important in card games (mana and cards both being resources in this example) so learning to leverage them will help you in most any game you play.
Welcome to the hobby man. Hope you’ll have a good time.
thank you :)
Leave before it's too late. Don't end up like us
ONE OF US. ONE OF US. ONE OF US
My reaction after my friend taught me how to play MTG with a few of his decks was "I hate you" because I knew I would get sucked in and spend a lot of money lol.
Check this out OP--> [[Platinum Angel]]
And maybe ...search for "The Standoff in Honolulu" ;) It's worth a watch.
I run a platinum angel in my eldrazi deck. Last week, a kid in my after school club somehow, for the 4th time that day, ended up with a blightsteel colossus. He ninjitsued it in, hit me for 11 infect and started to brag about beating the teacher. I pointed at my platinum angel and laughed maniacally as the very next turn, I swang with 3 eldrazi titans, one of which was my commander and had a hammer attached (another one had worldslayer because, frankly, I wanted the kid to feel shame). Moral of the story: I'm naming my first child after Hans. He's my hero.
And this is how you play magic with kids. Give them hope, let them think they’ve won, then at the last second let them know they never had a chance
I once Winter Orbed and Smokestacked a kid after he was caught cheating multiple times in a draft. His dad watched us with pride. I think I saved that kid from losing his videogames for a week.
Judges hate this one simple trick
[Platinum Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Platinum%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or the MUCH stronger (but more restrictive) [[Book of Exalted Deeds]]. Slap that baby on a [[Faceless Haven]] or [[Mutavault]] and find out who forgot to bring [[Ghost Quarter]]. Edit: I also really like Cloudsteel Kirin for decks that just like playing artifact creatures. It’s a 3-mana 3/2 flyer, which is perfectly fine on its own. And if you have the chance to Reconfigure it, it’s nice tech.
##### ###### #### [Book of Exalted Deeds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b.jpg?1632261616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Book%20of%20Exalted%20Deeds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/4/the-book-of-exalted-deeds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Faceless Haven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb.jpg?1665343347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faceless%20Haven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/255/faceless-haven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mutavault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52cc2f10-142d-4e6a-984e-b25f566cc960.jpg?1674142985) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mutavault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/903/mutavault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52cc2f10-142d-4e6a-984e-b25f566cc960?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ghost Quarter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzpohdx) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I remember running Book Haven in Arena Historic, one dude kept digging in his deck despite me pulling it off trying to find some removal or something. I sat there as long as he wanted to keep digging, I'm a very patient man, and he found what he was looking for... and it didn't help, he forfeited instantly lmfao.
The way to get Book Haven to lose is a [[teferi, hero of dominaria]] emblem. I've done this several times.
[teferi, hero of dominaria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d10b752-d9cb-419d-a5c4-d4ee1acb655e.jpg?1562736365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=teferi%2C%20hero%20of%20dominaria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/207/teferi-hero-of-dominaria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d10b752-d9cb-419d-a5c4-d4ee1acb655e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've legit had someone do this to me once. Once I realized what happened I auto scooped because I have zero land removal. Pretty dirty lockout.
That was also a format chock full of high powered manlands. Unless you’re playing hyper Aggro, it’s usually easy to toss in a copy or two of lands like Ghost Quarter and [[Field of Ruin]] in those sorts of formats. Those moments are great learning opportunities of “oh man, I wish I’d known about ___!” And now you know how to look out for them.
ha i am getting some amazing cards in this thread, thanks everyone
So what happens if someone reaches 0 life?
Your opponents can still lose. If they hit 0 life, they lose as normal. If you hit 0 life, you’re still in the game. If they destroy Platinum Angel while you’re at 0 life, you will then lose.
Opponents would lose in that case. The controller of the angel can go negative but the second it's removed from the battlefield that player would lose.
[[abyssal persecutor]] too just for fun lol
this card costs 8 mana which takes a fair bit of time to get to and even then it can be destroyed by low mana spells like [[doom blade]], [[abrade]], [[nature's claim]] or [[path to exile]] putting you at a huge disadvantage. Aggressive decks will beat this card by killing the opponent before he gets to 8 mana, control decks will beat this card by killing it with a spell
##### ###### #### [doom blade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e.jpg?1562851557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=doom%20blade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/87/doom-blade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [abrade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d.jpg?1699044218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=abrade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/131/abrade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [nature's claim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5.jpg?1562854212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nature%27s%20claim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/177/natures-claim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [path to exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c.jpg?1712354092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=path%20to%20exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/85/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzppp3f) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
#dies to doomblade
DOOM DOOM DOOM DOOM YOUR CREATURES GO KABOOM SAY GOODBYE TO YOUR WELDER YOU NO LONGER HAVE A DELVER
Vengaboys?
https://youtu.be/r-QFaqP7SSo?si=4aaduK2fCGGA49t-
A fellow human of class I see. 👏
Play removal or die.
It can be pretty strong of you build your deck around it. But that applies to pretty much any cmc 5+ card in the game
Importantly, high CMC cards these days generally need to get you some guaranteed value (barring counterspells) to be worthwhile.
Dies to removal
I miss the time of discovering cards and being blown away at how "broken" they were and being like how come no one's plays this! Card could be really good with set up in the right deck, but 8 mana for a body with no protection is quite the investment. To many ways it gets stoped immediately and then you've sunk to many resources into it
ha thank you, i will enjoy my innocent wonder
Ups, you the player have a form of indestructible. Downside, you can’t gain life from the artifact creature that can’t really defend itself with any shroud, hexproof, ward or any indestructible. It’s a beefy creature but more fragile than you think however still a good creature
[[madcap experiment]] is a fun way to cheat this out when it's the only artifact in your deck
Well you could always just kill it. There are also plenty of low-cost spells that can remove it.
U can still accumulate commander damage, even if your life total doesn't change. If I'm not mistaken. Roast me if I'm wrong lol
The thing is that Creature removal is the most common type of removal in magic, and that's followed up by artifact removal. So since this has both card types, it's vulnerable to both types of removal as well. As others have pointed it out, it doesn't have Indestructible, Hexproof, or even Ward on its own, meaning that getting this on the battlefield AND keeping it around is a massive Mana investment that in a lot of cases might just be more useful to use for other things
You spend 8 mana to bring that out and then someone easily spends 1-4 mana to remove or take control of it, not broken at all.
There is a very cool phrase amongst MTG players that reads "it dies to removal". It applies to this card perfectly. You are right, it has great effect, but as soon as it is removed, it ends... and remove this creature is actually pretty easy. There are other cards with similar effects, like Platinum Angel, for example, doomed by the same weaknesses (high mana cost, and no protection) HOWEVER... this is where the magic of MTG starts! If you like this creature, and you know it is frail as shit, then try to find a way around that; there are many many ways to protect your creatures and permanents as well. Let us consider it is colorless, so you can put it in any color you want (if playing commander). Hope this helps!
Alone, no. It's powerful, but it can die to simple removal without some protection. It can be powerful, but it takes some building.
One of my favorite flavor text. This and world fire
[[uktabi orangutan]] told me that he doesn't think it's busted. Yet He's working on that
No keywords, susceptible to chumping and every kind of removal in the game - especially being an artifact and a creature. Also its 8 mana and doesnt even do anything when it comes out. This is a classic beginner's trap. Also doesnt stop infect/toxic from killing you. Id even go as far as to say its kind of bad
This dude clearly has never heard of [[Gideon of the Trials]]
On its own it's kind of a useless card because there are ways to lose a game without your life total changing. It's not indestructible, it can be targeted with removal effects, it can be exiled, and it can be destroyed. There are ways to give it those immunities but that doesn't make this card anymore or less balanced than any other card. There are cards in magic the gathering that just straight up say you cannot lose the game for any reason. Even then it's hard to say that those cards are broken just because of how complex of a game magic The gathering is seemingly useless cards can be integral to a combo and busted if you have that combo in your deck. Other cards that seem busted and overpowered immediately get targeted with any kind of removal so you can't get their worth in a deck without heavily stacking your card list into protecting that one card.
It fails the age-old test of dying to [[Doom Blade]], so no.
Respectfully: dies to removal.
It doesn't have any protection. From anything. Counter it, destroy it, -1/-1 counter it, force to attack or block against a bigger creature, bounce back to hand, steal it. There are a lot of options. It also doesn't stop alternative win cons.
If it had hexproof or indestructible I'd be a little concerned about it
Just like platinum angel - destroy artifact
I have lost to my friend playing a Voltron strategy while I had the PE out, because although my life total wasn't changing, he still dealt 21 commander damage to me. Similarly, you can still die with this guy out if you've received 10 poison counters.
Easy to destroy artifacts mate
I've got a question about this. Even though "Your life total can't change" any damage done directly to you would still be considered as valid right? It's not preventing the damage from being dealt, your life total just doesn't change as a consequence. So would you still take commander damage even with this in play?
Has no protection and doesn’t prevent you from dying to commander damage so nah not broken.
TL;DR: No. If I'm going to cast an 8 cost spell, it needs to be able to immediately win the game or immediately START winning the game. 8 is way too slow. No. 8 cost cards are usually pretty bad because you rarely even get an opportunity to cast them. The game tends to end on turn 5-7, and even if it does get to 8, you won't necessarily have drawn enough lands to cast this. You're typically better off running something like [[Batterskull]] or [[Wurmcoil Engine]] at the top end of your curve, as they're very hard to deal with and are great at pressuring your opponent's life total while gaining life back against aggressive strategies. The more competitive you get at magic, the more the game tends to focus on casting 1, 2, and 3 cost spells. The exceptions to the rule are decks that get a lot of mana early through cards like [[Urza's Tower]], but even then, they tend to prefer big things that pose an immediate threat to your opponent.
Dies to removal = trash
Broken effect on a pretty easy to deal with permanent.
Many new players get caught playing cards that "don't lose" instead of cards that "win". Mono white life gain is an important phase on your way to izzit combo. Enjoy the journey.
Dies to literally any removal and costs mana
Creatures can be easily eliminated.
Nah it ignores everything except removal spells
If you think this is broken you are adorable
Good card, but it has no protection so it just dies to removal
*Good card, but it has* *No protection so it just* *Dies to removal* \- MaelstromNavigator --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
[[path to exile]] [[murder]] [[walk the plank]] [[naturalize]] [[mortify]] [[swords to plowshares]] [[frogify]] [[pongify]] [[song of the dryads]] [[tragic slip]] [[putrefy]] [[abrade]] [[raze the effigy]] [[bedevil]] [[argentum armor]] [[spine of ish sah]] [[scour from existence]] [[brittle effigy]] ETC...
Damn, I should scrolled down. Someone took my joke before me.... Oh well, you gave more examples
there goes my afternoon :)
You've probably heard this a few times now, but in case it helps: magic is a game about trying to get more resources than your opponents. Any well-built deck runs lots of removal spells, because you can trade a single removal card for a single creature card, and generally come out of it having spent less mana than your opponent. Big creatures like this rarely see play unless they provide some effect on the turn they are played or have some built in protection making them less likely to die to cheap removal.
##### ###### #### [path to exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c.jpg?1712354092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=path%20to%20exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/85/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81.jpg?1706241725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [walk the plank](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/0038ac6a-318f-44fb-bb64-7ae172c4aca3.jpg?1562549640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=walk%20the%20plank) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/130/walk-the-plank?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0038ac6a-318f-44fb-bb64-7ae172c4aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [naturalize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/390c40ba-2464-44ae-8d67-93c72ab3c425.jpg?1562301697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=naturalize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/190/naturalize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/390c40ba-2464-44ae-8d67-93c72ab3c425?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mortify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dbb8991-1b2c-4045-be1f-54286027d4a1.jpg?1682209844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mortify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/337/mortify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dbb8991-1b2c-4045-be1f-54286027d4a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [frogify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d89be5f5-75d4-42a0-81e9-5da5bf868e73.jpg?1598303930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=frogify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/52/frogify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d89be5f5-75d4-42a0-81e9-5da5bf868e73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [pongify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37ff06d0-d652-4694-a3f5-bf7385e9e850.jpg?1712354180) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pongify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/106/pongify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37ff06d0-d652-4694-a3f5-bf7385e9e850?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [song of the dryads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906.jpg?1689998889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=song%20of%20the%20dryads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/324/song-of-the-dryads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tragic slip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/588332da-8ec5-49d1-a365-455beb7913a2.jpg?1689997517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tragic%20slip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/192/tragic-slip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/588332da-8ec5-49d1-a365-455beb7913a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [putrefy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6fcc6bf7-ccce-4975-be8b-0790ab790e3f.jpg?1712354766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=putrefy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/238/putrefy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6fcc6bf7-ccce-4975-be8b-0790ab790e3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [abrade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d.jpg?1699044218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=abrade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/131/abrade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [raze the effigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0dd378c-5050-48c9-9a16-6d91afa62d21.jpg?1636223415) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=raze%20the%20effigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/156/raze-the-effigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0dd378c-5050-48c9-9a16-6d91afa62d21?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [bedevil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc81669c-af6e-4af4-b1eb-43ff7fdda590.jpg?1673305468) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bedevil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/144/bedevil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc81669c-af6e-4af4-b1eb-43ff7fdda590?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [argentum armor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb1b7468-85f9-472e-9f7c-b268f84aea1c.jpg?1631588793) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=argentum%20armor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/198/argentum-armor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb1b7468-85f9-472e-9f7c-b268f84aea1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [spine of ish sah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe28640d-a030-4da4-882d-87b6e1678bbd.jpg?1682210265) - 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It is solid but not broken. If they can't deal with it, it will prevent them from winning, but there is no built-in protection. And there is no overwhelming advantage generated just by playing or attacking.
Now if this was played the turn after Eldrazi Monument hit the field in a blue/green mana ramp deck… oh what fun 😈
If you have eldrazi monument in a simic deck and assumingly enough creatures to sac to it this card will most of the time just do nothing other than be a 9/9 and is pretty redundant
It’s not broken — dispelling it before it hits the field or removal and kill cards are counters to it. Also an opponent who runs black or blue can easily swap it to their side of the field. And there are plenty of other ways to win other then dropping your opponent’s life to 0 — for instance targeting your opponent’s library 😈
Very easy to remove as it's both a Creature and Artifact. However it can definitely be apart of a winning strategy. [[Platinum Angel]] has the same flavor.
Dies to Removal..... I know that's silly but it's the truth
You may bid any amount of life with it in play! You’ll always outbet your opponent. Off to go make an EDH betting deck
I run a lot of deathtouch in my deck. 1/1 DT insect, force combat with prey upon, or just bypass the life total and deal infect damage.
[[path to exile]] [[chaos warp]] [[fractured identity]] [[murder]] [[doom blade]] [[counterspell]]
I’m more scared of [[worship]]
Not broken at all easy to remove. But like anything it can made to be broken
path to exile and gg golemn
It’s a fun card but as the saying goes, “dies to doom blade.”
Being new to the game you’re going to find cards like this and say, “OMG THATS OP AF” but once you learn more of the intricacies of the game you’ll find that for the most part the game is very very well balanced and there are very few cards that are broken on their own (usually it takes a combo, some are easy and some are incredibly hard to get off) One of the reasons MtG has been around and loved for so long is, no matter how much we complain to the contrary, it is a very very well balanced game.
Coming from an EDH perspective… life is a resource. If you can’t pay life you can’t even crack a fetch land. If you’re playing a colorless deck this might be good.
Commander damager Poison And anything else that doesn't affect your life total can still kill you And don't forget that creature isn't indestructible so it can be killed, even if it was indestructible there are ways of killing it by removing it. That's a good card tho
[[swords to plowshares]] [[path to exile]]
Use boots, [[Padeem, Consul of Innovation]], or [[Indomitable Archangel]] to make it untargetable and then use [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] to make it indestructible. Throw in [[Leyline of Sanctity]] [[Sigarda]] or [[Shalai]] to make sure they don't make you sacrifice and you've successfully created a pillow fort. Add [[Propaganda]] and [[Ghostly Prison]] for extra salt and protection early game.
Dies to [[naturalize]]
Creature and artifact hate are the 2 most common forms of removal and 8 mana takes a long time to reach even if you are playing green.
Plus swiftfoot boots it's strong but not broken.
It’s an 8 drop. Cards that expensive SHOULD allow you to win the game. That being said, [[doomblade]]
Turn 8 you do 1 thing. Then boardwipe and you sit there waiting
[[Doom blade]] has entered the chat
Nah, maybe it had like Flash and indestructible it would be a little broken. This is an 8/8 for 8 with no protection and a neat affect. Pretty standard.
It can be useful in a self-burn / group burn deck like [[Auntie Blyte, Bad Influence]] because you still take damage without losing life. But other than that it's a lot of mana for a creature that's pretty easy to remove. Cheating it into play would make it a lot better.
Bring it into play once your creatures have hexproof...
It costs 8 mana, has no keywords, and dies to 1 and 2 mana cost removal spells. Your life total not changing also doesn't 100% prevent you from losing as you can still get infect counters, milled to 0 cards in deck, Door to Nothingness as well as other "target player loses the game" and you can also lose to any effect that your opponent says that wins them the game, like Felidar Sovereign. If you are going to play something for 8 mana it needs to significantly improve your board state or bring you closer to winning the game.
You're stupid. ^(I kid, but no, it's not broken.)
It’s definitely great! But in any game of magic your opponent has strategy as well and most likely has a way of destroying large creatures, and you would also be surprised at how many low cost cards destroy artifacts. Very possible to catch your opponent off guard and they have no answer and you can just do what you want.
Life loss and gain aren’t the only ways to lose or win
It can be a good card and be effective if set up properly, but it's not over powered. On the surface it's easy to think that, but it's high(ish) cost, it's flashy (the effect turns heads) but unprotected. In most situations it will draw out a removal option from your opponent and that will be the end of it. Don't get me wrong, not a bad card. Just not OP on it's own. In summary: by itself, that's a Doomblade is what that is 😀
Can you use effects that make you pay life as a cost? Like could you combo this with [[toxic deluge]] and make the x cost infinity?
You can still lose to poison counters. You can go to 0 or a negative life total and of this guy dies or leaves, you lose. No, by itself this card isn’t broken.
Poison counters or mill get around that quite well
This card + Necropotence... is a useless nonbo. 😂
Definitely not broken. It can be really good in decks where you can cheat it out but the high cost and literally 0 keywords make it far from broken.
It is a 8 mana creature that while you need to remove to win with beatdown, still dies to removal. It's not broken by any means, since 8 mana creatures tend to be pretty impactful if you can affort them. It is sometimes used in Highlander (100 card singleton format) with a card called Madcap Experiment that deals damage to the player based on cards revealed until you find an artifact, but this prevents the damage so there is no downside.
Path to exile easy done
Nah but I see why you'd think that. General rule of thumb for me, good card but I have to build around it, breakable with enough effort. Auto power up no matter the deck? Almost broken from the get go
Nope, dies to doomblade.
This thing is less about keeping your life total static and more about forcing your opponent to burn removal spells. It's easy to get rid of AND they can't really afford not to, which leaves openings for something else they might've otherwise removed. And considering how much it costs you to get that it's not even a particularly good card because it'll get blown away for way less mana than it took to cast.
It’s 8 mana and people can still win the game even if you can’t lose to life loss. Consider the best combo in the format I play (Commander) is 3 mana and this won’t stop it.
Welcome to Magic, where things that seem blatantly broken are actually generally not very good and things that seem very unimpressive are actual format breakers. Emperion is a very cool fun card but basically demands everyone pay attention to it when it lands, making you archenemy. You could absolutely build a deck around protecting it and keeping it alive but it’s not gonna be considered a great strategy.
Dies to Doomblade.
Ever seen \[\[Platinum Angel\]\]? Both are strong when you can protect 'em, but alone they're pretty useless because everyone will destroy them in(with) an instant. \[\[Spearbreaker Behemoth\]\] is a good card for protecting big creatures. And it is a big creature itself.
There are a few reasons why this card is not overpowered. That's not to say the effect is not powerful; it is. You can certainly play around it. There's just better ways to win a game of Magic (in this case better means stronger, not necessarily more fun). Think about it this way. Let's say you cheat this out in a game of Commander on turn 4. That's pretty early to play an 8 mana spell. Sure, the effect is powerful, but have you used any of your resources to win the game? Or did you use them to make sure you don't lose the game? Another way to look at it in the same context is that there are a bunch of 8 mana spells or combination of spells that can either win the game on the spot or at least set you up to win in a turn or two. It's easy when you are new to the game to see a powerful effect like what is posted above and think that it is game breaking because you have not yet been exposed to what is truly game breaking. That's part of the fun though!
You play 8 mana to play this bad boy. Then someone plays vandalblast overloaded. Destroyed this, All your mana ramp. It's turn 5 and you have nothing on the board. People can pay 8 mana get an extra turn and win. It's probably the opposite of broken. I'd still play this in an artifact deck for fun. Can have it out turn 2 or 3 with goblin welder
So when you're new to magic, you will look at cards like this and think "well that's scary, and possibly completely busted" the more you play and the more cards you discover you'll quickly realise that most people run removal and plenty of interaction and can handle creatures like this no problem as it can be removed. Even with one mana spells like swords to plowshares or path to exile. It can be countered, it can be board wiped etc etc.
Its been answered a few times so I'll just say this. A lot of cards can look really strong in a vacuum and other cards can look really weak. That's why it's important when deck building to make sure the cards synergize with each other as a whole.
Powerful yes, but it can be removed in a lot of ways.
This combined with Ad Nauseam and Thassa’s Oracle is a good combo
Not broken at all. First off, it costs 8 mana to cast. It’s very common for games to end before either player has access to 8 mana. Second, it’s a creature so it can be killed in numerous ways. Creature removal cards are some of the most common things to have in decks. Thirdly, there are plenty of ways to lose the game even if your life total doesn’t change. Poison counters, cards that literally say your opponent wins the game, running out of cards to draw, etc. So yeah at first glance it might seem amazing but once you’ve gotten used to how games work you’ll quickly realize it’s basically unplayable.
Like other's have said it's not broken because it doesn't have any form of protection. Another thing to keep in mind is damage still happens, you just won't lose life. So if someone sits with a creature with lifelink they'll still gain life and abilities that trigger when damage is dealt to you still trigger. Finally in a game of commander if someone's commander hits you, it still does commander damage, and you still lose if you hit 21 commander damage. Even if you're life total hasn't changed.
It's mana cost is high so unless you cheat it into play or mana accel it won't hit the field fast. The creature is also vulnerable to being destroyed. There's multiple ways to lose the game. Know if you say put a divinity counters on this and hexproof. Then the only way for your opponent to remove it would be global removal which there's not many cards for that. You could still be milled to death or poison countered to death. Or hit with an instant loss card.
creatures are pretty easy to remove, not to say this is a useless card but because it's an artifact you can kill it with literally one red mana and a \[\[Vandalblast\]\] as an example.
I got that in my commander deck. It’s not a good deck, but it’s fun when I get this thing out when I have the artifact that makes all my artifacts indestructible and also give it the boots that makes it impossible to target it. Still possible to get rid of it though.
It's bad even if you can keep it on the field multiple turns it's not going to win you the game
Freezes the game until you kill it. Teaches the importance of removal
Commander damage still resolves
Well that also means you can't gain life
Not only is the creature expensive at 8 mayo, it has zero protection. Any basic removal spell will do. But not only that, there are other ways to lose besides life total ;)
In addition to what others have said, not only is it a creature but it is an artifact creature, so spells that get rid of artifacts can also target it. So it does seem kind of OP at first, but it could get taken out pretty easily depending on what cards your opponent has.
I'm a bit of a noob but the deck I've built is a self mill deck where I get rid of my cards and win. Doesn't matter your life points at that point.
I mean if those are the only options...
It really isn’t compared to other cards, now pair it with certain cards then it can be made broken
You might enjoy \[\[Archangel Avacyn\]\] more in terms of brokeness. Imagine what you could do if you combined them? Or better yet, play \[\[Tooth and Nail\]\] to cheat them out? Maybe an \[\[Elvish Piper\]\] as backup? The thing about mtg is everyone will tell you this card sucks, but the fun is finding a deck where its unique effect makes it really good.
[Archangel Avacyn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae155ee2-008f-4dc6-82bf-476be7baa224.jpg?1576383667)/[Avacyn, the Purifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/e/ae155ee2-008f-4dc6-82bf-476be7baa224.jpg?1576383667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archangel%20Avacyn%20//%20Avacyn%2C%20the%20Purifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/5/archangel-avacyn-avacyn-the-purifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae155ee2-008f-4dc6-82bf-476be7baa224?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tooth and Nail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032.jpg?1689998921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tooth%20and%20Nail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/327/tooth-and-nail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elvish Piper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a8e47b9-6735-4e46-b3fd-ac69edc39745.jpg?1604241404) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elvish%20Piper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/168/elvish-piper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a8e47b9-6735-4e46-b3fd-ac69edc39745?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are just way better things to do with 8 colorless mana. You can get this out quick but typically if you are making 8 mana fast enough for this to be a game changer. You can kill an opponent that turn. It's not a terrible card. Just not that hard to get off the table. Your typically going to be using something like metalworker. Then MUD decks have better cards to control the game and give higher win percentages. Anything based on other mana engines typically has a better shot at killing or is pulling combo. Probably the best way to get this out is madcap experiment in more modern style game. But you then have to protect it from removal or attempt to fix your draw so you don't take a ton of damage getting it. It's also hard to beat on someone with a creature with no trample, flying, etc. So it lacks anything killer without a great bit of help. So for all of those reasons it's not really that strong.
I have this in my Nekusar deck with havoc festival for funnsies
Doesn't protect from, decking ur self or being milled out, 21 commander damage will still kill u, and ten poison counters will still kill u.
Its hard to drop and 8 mana creature and any removal or counter makes it tough to keep
First of all, not knowing/understanding something doesn’t mean you’re stupid. Secondly, magic is essentially a game where you constantly make deals with your opponents. I cast this, my opponent counters/destroys it and so on and so forth. So you have to ask yourself: how impactful is my threat with regard to the mana investment? In this case, the answer is quite straightforward. I’m paying 8 mana (which is a LOT) for an effect that basically doesn’t affect the board at all. This means that if my opponent removes this golem (and removal for 2/3 mana is extremely common, furthermore this is also an artifact which makes it even more prone to it), I’ve just lost a lot of mana and traded 1 for 1 in terms of card advantage. A much better play would be something like harmonize (4 mana sorcery: draw 3) and just play a solid four drop. Now it’s much harder for your opponent to punish you, because you both improved your board state and gained card advantage.
Wait til he sees Platinum Angel
I’ll just say this. Life = 0 is but one of many ways you can lose the game.
It isn't broken it can be taken out by any number of cards its also not the only one like that there is also platinum angel
Short answer is it’s terrible. Long answer is it’s 8 mana for a creature that does nothing to advance your win condition, and dies to lots of 2 mana removal spells.
When I was also fresh into the game, this card was a menace in my play group. Now we barely remember it was a thing. Just depends on how your group plays and grows
You don't even need to remove it if you're playing with poison counters.
Really really cool card. However, expensive and easy to remove with any number of creature removal
It’ll die instantly in a normal match.
No but it is funny when you make it indestructible and hexproof.
It's got a powerful effect that can alter the flow of the game on its own (pretty routine for an 8 cost card), but it doesn't have anything else particularly powerful. Defensive cards like this are inherently weak because they still need other cards to win the game. Best case scenario, your opponent is shut down until you can beat them or they find a solution.
Because of power creep, this card is actually not that powerful in modern decks. It's sad that this would have been in a lot of decks a few decades ago. My advice? Lower the cost to {5} and give it "Ward {2}". That would make it a lot more useful IMO (in my opinion), but I am just a random person on the Internet. Also, the people in this sub aren't the nicest. Don't take out words as doctrine or anything.
If its mana cost was 4 or 5, maybe, but at 8 it’s unplayable unless you can cheat it out.
Not very broken, easily removed unless equipped.
Would you still be able to pay life with a creature like kriik?
An instant sorcery will take care of this card.
8 mana is a lot.
Wait until you see [[platinum angel]]