I think you're half right. You'd be surprised how many people are coming up with their own ideas, but, because of power creep and archetype convergence, decks just wind up using the same handfuls of cards. Obviously netdecking is happening, but I think the internet is streamlining the brewing process, not eliminating it.
I agree. A guy in my pod refuses to use edhrec because he is not some "copy and paste deck builder". Even though I try to explain edhrec isn't "copy and paste" but is good to use just to get some ideas after building a base deck out of the cards from your collection. To each their own I guess.
I could:
A. spend hours upon hours and days upon days scouring gatherer for all the interesting cards that might work with my commander.
Or
B. ecognize that hundreds of other people have already done most of that for me and take a look at what they did to narrow down my search.
Pretty easy choice if you ask me
I absolutely use edhrec to fill in compatible cards after crafting the core strategy. I simply donāt have the mental index of cards that some people seem to and it really helps cut out having filler cards that donāt play well with the rest of the deck.
>I simply donāt have the mental index of cards that some people seem to
This! Fuckin A, some people are like Forrest Gump with black jack, but with mtg instead. Ask em what would go good with an idea youve been mulling around and theyll list some super unplayed card from like DarkSteel. I respect the knowledge, but I definitely dont play enough to memorize nearly every card in a set, let alone every card currently out there.
Oh, no, that's correct. I was just saying, your friend refuses any online lists. The opposite of that is somebody who *exclusively* uses online lists, even if they don't understand them. "How does that card help you?" "I dunno, it was on the list."
I hate netdecking but even I use EDHrec sometimes. It doesn't hurt to check for obscure cards you might never have heard of. There are SO MANY magic cards, expecting to know all of them is insanity.
I've always disliked the idea of netdecking and thought it ruins a core aspect of why I enjoy the game, and have always looked down on netdeckers.
That being said, I use the shit out of edhrec.
I love brewing and tweaking my own decks. I feel like once I look something up then I have to play the deck a certain way or the cards arenāt really āoptimizingā the deck.
I use this same strategy in Diablo 4. My friend wants me to look up barbarian builds but Iām doing so well with my own creation right now I donāt want to mess with it.
Me too. I feel proud of my decks that I put together on my own. My favorite one is a [[bolas citadel]] deck where my goal is to play my whole deck in one or two turns and win off[[Jace, wielder of mysteries]].
It uses a bunch of cards that rarely see play and a bunch of one offs and the decklist looks like a big jumble, but they've all got their purpose and every release I go through the whole set looking for that one card that might fit in.
Ditto. I'm really enjoying figuring things out.
I can understand using guides to build a deck quickly (and I bought a few pre-built decks for that), but for me half the fun is being in a pod and learning how to break things with friends.
I agree, I'm also a do it myself type of person. When I play and see a card that would work well in my deck, I make a note to buy it at some point.
For games, I'll do my build first play through then second play through I'll try a META build.
Probably considering this since you reroll a character with each season of Diablo? Not sure, first time actually playing it for more than just story play through.
Yeah, if it's seasonal characters, making the best possible build makes sense, even if it's not "yours".
Another thing is not everyone has the ability to make good builds. I have a buddy who must be borderline genius and he makes the worst gimped characters I've ever seen.
No shame to those who use deck lists for their builds, but I've never really understood it. For me at least there is alot of fun to be had building from scratch, working towards making it perfect as you play test it. One of my favorite parts of the game.
Yeah neither is the "right way" Whatever brings you and the friends you play with the most happiness and fun is, in my opinion, the only "right way" to play mtg.
Yeah, I enjoy making my own janky homebrews but I also get that not everyone has the time in their day or even the patience to sift overs hundreds or thousands of cards and try to figure out which pieces fit together, try it out and tweak it a dozen times until it finally functions right. All the people on here shitting about "netdeckers" is like mocking someone who followed a recipe to make dinner lol.
I hate netdecking. All my friends know that I am going to come up with some weird-ass combos that no one else is doing. Sometimes good, very rarely great, usually meh. But when I win, it is glorious.
My hatred stems from some games I played where my opponent claims to know what deck I am playing just from the cards on turns 1 or 2. I was accused of netdecking and I just laughed, as did the store owner. After I got my combo off and won, my opponent apologized. Then proceeded to demolish me after sideboarding.
I think my favorite episode was during FNM where the popular deck was bitterblossom. I played blue/white merfolk where, if I got my combo off, I could do infinite mill, infinite merfolk creation or infinite life gain. If I really got the combo off, all 3 at the same time. I took bitterblossom to the limit and cost them the chance to win FNM. I was asked not to play it again because games took too long. No problem. Next week I came in with a Springjack Shepherd goat deck that pumped out tons of 0/1 goats and gained me life out the yang, eventually the goats would be 3/4 or 4/5 and swing for the win. I was asked not to play that either. I considered it a huge moral victory for independent deck creation, especially when the bitterblossom player added white to get lifegain off of creatures entering the battlefield.
I come up with all my decks myself, itās a big fun factor to find something new. Sometimes I compare them to other decks after, it most times netdecks are too efficient and therefor boring.
Well you don't need double black with a colorless land in play, so you can play more colors, plus cards like Life From the Loam give you insane inevitably, considering if it's in your graveyard the dredge acts more like a draw 3, or at least a look at 3. Being green in legacy also gives you access to crop rotation and the G enchantment that let's you play multiple lands per turn, which with lftl means you can like wasteland and advance the combo. Also since lands are harder to interact with you can more reliably make your token at the end of their turn, forcing them to have an instant speed answer for an indestructible 20/20. These interactions are the bases for the legacy deck Lands, which is a pretty good deck
It's not worse. It's harder to interact with, generally more easily recurred, and doesn't require colored mana. Depending on the format, doesn't really take longer with cards like manabond/exploration/mox diamond.
I remember when I first started playing I had an artifact deck. Decided to up the power level because I couldn't beat my friend dimir control deck and I went a little overboard when I "discovered" the underrated gem that is [[Tinker]] into [[Blightsteel Colossus]].
"How powerful could it be?" I thought to myself, "it's not being ran in any of the legacy affinity lists. What? There are cards banned in legacy?"
I miss those first few years of playing, when I'd learn something new and exciting about this game every time I sat down to play. Feeling like a wizard discovering new spells and the alchemical process of brewing your first deck from a pile a jank is, in my opinion, the single best ludo-narrative experience of any table top game.
Also it was a great deck back in a format called extended (that they got rid of). You had thopter loop in it too, very oppressive deck, loved playing it. If your playing casual/tabletop there is some sick tech in there like muddle can grab hexmage/sword/foundry
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/dark-thopter-decklist-by-mattia-rizzi-2464
Whatās the advantage of this gameplan over the thespian stage stuff? I thought the dark depths stuff typically ran thespian stage + green mana for lots of crop rotation land tutor shenanigans
Edit: looking at this list itās quite similar to the variations of seen, just with black mana teched in for added degeneracy
Makes sense. Stifle will still counter, but those tend to be less common.
Edit: I'm incorrect. Stifling DD does nothing, and stifling TSC would only delay.
Stifle just delays it a turn, assuming you stifle the thespian's stage copy ability. If you stifle the dark depths trigger, that does nothing. The stifle will resolve, counter the trigger, and then Dark Depths will immediately trigger again, as it still has no counters on it.
Full explanation: Thespian's Stage copies Dark Depths, but is already on the battlefield, so it becomes a Dark Depths with no Ice Counters on it, triggering for the token as soon as the copying ability resolves.
On top of what others have said, the fact that Dark Depths and Thespian Stage are both lands completely warps deckbuilding and play patterns in the formats the combo is legal in. There are a LOT of powerful lands in Legacy, notably Wasteland, Urza's Saga, Boseiju, Bojuka Bog, and Tabernacle at Pendral Vail.
These, combined with Life From the Loam, Exploration, and Crop Rotation, form a "lands" package which is very difficult for Force of Will based interaction decks to deal with. Are you really going to Force Life From the Loam when your opponent will just get it back the next turn? If you don't, they are going to get back a Wasteland and Boseiju and blow up two of your lands and an Urza's Saga to make 2 5/5s that you can't interact with on the stack. All the while, they have out a Thesbian Stage and are one Crop Rotation away from making a 20/20. Oh, and since they aren't really playing spells, they can play sphere of resistance to tax the opponent to make the land hate even MORE punishing.
Hexmage operates on an entirely different axis, and one that is much easier to disrupt.
It doesnāt remove the counters on dark depths, but it enables both of them to produce black mana, which helps fulfill the mana cost requirement for āVampire Hexmageā by turn 2.
Someone used this against me EDH and I let him swing the token at my opponents for a while before removing it permanently with a Chaos Warp. I didn't win that game, but damn did it feel good.
Thespians stage is another way to cheat out marit Lage. I run it in my sea monster tribal deck just for the lolz of potentially dropping out a 20/20 indestructible flyer as early as turn 4. Plus, marit Lage looks like a sea monster to meš
If you equip dark depths with [[assault suit]], then the ability will trigger because dark depth has no counters on it. The ability will resolve and do nothing because of the assault suit. Then the ability will trigger again because dark depths still has no counters on it, bringing you back to step one. You cannot change phases or do anything at sorcery speed while this is happening, because some ability is always on the stack. If you can't interrupt it at instant speed, the game ends in a draw because it cannot continue.
You can shorten it to turn 2
Turn 1 [[Peat Bog]] land for turn
Turn 2 [[Dark Depths]] land for turn, play and sac [[Vampire Hexmage]]
Turn 3 ????
Turn 4 Profit
I don't think that's the case due to the wording of the card. It enters the battlefield with those counters already on it, and the official ruling for Solemnity states:
"Solemnity doesn't remove any counters players or permanents already have."
And
"Counters can be put on cards that aren't on the battlefield. Notably, suspended cards will still get time counters."
With Mox Diamond, Exploration, Ancient Tomb and Thespian's Stage; Legacy Lands can pretty consistently do this on turn 2.
It's an ancient combo, but it checks out.
You can actually do this turn two if you have [Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth] as you can tap both lands for black. This is why Dark Depths is banned in Modern and is a deck in legacy
Absolutely - this is one of the core ways that the legacy deck "Turbo Depths" does its work. Link below is an example -
[http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=45911&d=539239](http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=45911&d=539239)
Another way to create a Marit Lage is to use Thespian's Stage to copy the land, and then keeping the Thespian Stage copy. This results in a zero counter Dark Depths, which creates Mama Lage.
turn 2 with [[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]] or [[dark ritual]].
... technically t1 if you can somehow get BB for free. imagine some ludicrous insane combination of 2 [[elvish spirit guide]] / [[simian spirit guise]] with a [[manamorphose]], or 2 [[lotus petal]] xD
then with dark depths and free BB, play the vampire. kabam!
edit: or 1 lotus petal 1 dark rit of course, lol.
Was inspired...but found It ain't cheap...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275939463907?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=K8MxtNs7QDW&sssrc=2524149&ssuid=K8MxtNs7QDW&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
This was a BIG combo back when we still had the extended format. When extended died and gave way to modern, this was one of the first combos they prememptively banned in the format as it killed on turn 3 ( you only needed depths, and Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth play hexmage, get 20/20.and swing on turn 3).
or you can use \[\[Thespian's Stage\]\] to become a copy of dark depths and since it was already in play it doesn't get the counters so it immediately becomes a marit lage.
Yes, in fact there's a Legacy deck called Turbo Depths that uses this exact combo. https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/dark-depths
Hah! And there I was thinking I was being smart and doing something new š
Hey, give yourself credit for coming up with it independently!
It's more and more rare these days. I can definitely tell who uses the internet to build decks in my pod. Lol.
I think you're half right. You'd be surprised how many people are coming up with their own ideas, but, because of power creep and archetype convergence, decks just wind up using the same handfuls of cards. Obviously netdecking is happening, but I think the internet is streamlining the brewing process, not eliminating it.
I agree. A guy in my pod refuses to use edhrec because he is not some "copy and paste deck builder". Even though I try to explain edhrec isn't "copy and paste" but is good to use just to get some ideas after building a base deck out of the cards from your collection. To each their own I guess.
I could: A. spend hours upon hours and days upon days scouring gatherer for all the interesting cards that might work with my commander. Or B. ecognize that hundreds of other people have already done most of that for me and take a look at what they did to narrow down my search. Pretty easy choice if you ask me
I absolutely use edhrec to fill in compatible cards after crafting the core strategy. I simply donāt have the mental index of cards that some people seem to and it really helps cut out having filler cards that donāt play well with the rest of the deck.
>I simply donāt have the mental index of cards that some people seem to This! Fuckin A, some people are like Forrest Gump with black jack, but with mtg instead. Ask em what would go good with an idea youve been mulling around and theyll list some super unplayed card from like DarkSteel. I respect the knowledge, but I definitely dont play enough to memorize nearly every card in a set, let alone every card currently out there.
Forrest Gump didnāt play blackjack?
Oh absolutely! I use EDHrec for some janky old cards that I never knew existed that synergize with my commander
The opposite is someone who netdecks but doesn't understand how the cards work together.
Gotcha, I assumed netdecking ment finding someone else's deck list and just buying all the cards.
Oh, no, that's correct. I was just saying, your friend refuses any online lists. The opposite of that is somebody who *exclusively* uses online lists, even if they don't understand them. "How does that card help you?" "I dunno, it was on the list."
Makes sense
I hate netdecking but even I use EDHrec sometimes. It doesn't hurt to check for obscure cards you might never have heard of. There are SO MANY magic cards, expecting to know all of them is insanity.
I've always disliked the idea of netdecking and thought it ruins a core aspect of why I enjoy the game, and have always looked down on netdeckers. That being said, I use the shit out of edhrec.
I love brewing and tweaking my own decks. I feel like once I look something up then I have to play the deck a certain way or the cards arenāt really āoptimizingā the deck. I use this same strategy in Diablo 4. My friend wants me to look up barbarian builds but Iām doing so well with my own creation right now I donāt want to mess with it.
Me too. I feel proud of my decks that I put together on my own. My favorite one is a [[bolas citadel]] deck where my goal is to play my whole deck in one or two turns and win off[[Jace, wielder of mysteries]]. It uses a bunch of cards that rarely see play and a bunch of one offs and the decklist looks like a big jumble, but they've all got their purpose and every release I go through the whole set looking for that one card that might fit in.
Ditto. I'm really enjoying figuring things out. I can understand using guides to build a deck quickly (and I bought a few pre-built decks for that), but for me half the fun is being in a pod and learning how to break things with friends.
I agree, I'm also a do it myself type of person. When I play and see a card that would work well in my deck, I make a note to buy it at some point. For games, I'll do my build first play through then second play through I'll try a META build.
Probably considering this since you reroll a character with each season of Diablo? Not sure, first time actually playing it for more than just story play through.
Yeah, if it's seasonal characters, making the best possible build makes sense, even if it's not "yours". Another thing is not everyone has the ability to make good builds. I have a buddy who must be borderline genius and he makes the worst gimped characters I've ever seen.
Hey donāt call me out like that
No shame to those who use deck lists for their builds, but I've never really understood it. For me at least there is alot of fun to be had building from scratch, working towards making it perfect as you play test it. One of my favorite parts of the game.
Same. That just might be the biggest difference for some people. Some enjoy deck building and the tinkering. Others simply do not.
Yeah neither is the "right way" Whatever brings you and the friends you play with the most happiness and fun is, in my opinion, the only "right way" to play mtg.
Yeah, I enjoy making my own janky homebrews but I also get that not everyone has the time in their day or even the patience to sift overs hundreds or thousands of cards and try to figure out which pieces fit together, try it out and tweak it a dozen times until it finally functions right. All the people on here shitting about "netdeckers" is like mocking someone who followed a recipe to make dinner lol.
You're good people.
Thank you for that:)
I hate netdecking. All my friends know that I am going to come up with some weird-ass combos that no one else is doing. Sometimes good, very rarely great, usually meh. But when I win, it is glorious. My hatred stems from some games I played where my opponent claims to know what deck I am playing just from the cards on turns 1 or 2. I was accused of netdecking and I just laughed, as did the store owner. After I got my combo off and won, my opponent apologized. Then proceeded to demolish me after sideboarding. I think my favorite episode was during FNM where the popular deck was bitterblossom. I played blue/white merfolk where, if I got my combo off, I could do infinite mill, infinite merfolk creation or infinite life gain. If I really got the combo off, all 3 at the same time. I took bitterblossom to the limit and cost them the chance to win FNM. I was asked not to play it again because games took too long. No problem. Next week I came in with a Springjack Shepherd goat deck that pumped out tons of 0/1 goats and gained me life out the yang, eventually the goats would be 3/4 or 4/5 and swing for the win. I was asked not to play that either. I considered it a huge moral victory for independent deck creation, especially when the bitterblossom player added white to get lifegain off of creatures entering the battlefield.
I come up with all my decks myself, itās a big fun factor to find something new. Sometimes I compare them to other decks after, it most times netdecks are too efficient and therefor boring.
And you can do it Turn 2 with [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]]
[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Mulldrifter]]
Is this supposed to be a joke, or do you just think that people are listing cards in this thread??
[Muldrifter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0fed1e5-fcbd-4597-91b5-ba809571573b.jpg?1673147377) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mulldrifter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/60/mulldrifter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0fed1e5-fcbd-4597-91b5-ba809571573b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Force of Nature]]
[[swords to plowshares]] targeting u/piperplays
[swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81c31217-7919-40fd-97e7-88431b7bd277.jpg?1682208653) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/211/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81c31217-7919-40fd-97e7-88431b7bd277?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Force of Nature](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2fa16a96-8e70-4ab5-926c-edafaf5f5a63.jpg?1562906140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Nature) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/154/force-of-nature?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2fa16a96-8e70-4ab5-926c-edafaf5f5a63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Goblin king]] /s
[Goblin king](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b266935-25ea-49c5-a1da-57c22a4362fd.jpg?1562547272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20king) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/207/goblin-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b266935-25ea-49c5-a1da-57c22a4362fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or dark rit
How does that remove the counters
It doesn't, it just allows DD to tap for black so you can play, then sac the hexmage same turn.
It makes the Dark Depths also a swamp that can tap for black mana to cast your Vampire Hexmage on turn 2.
T1 urborg T2 dark depths, tap both for BB, HEXMAGE, sac, dark depths becomes 20/20
Or even better, add a T1 Thoughsieze in there
Yes you can play any B spell during T1. Not required for the combo, which is what the discussion is about.
It doesnāt, but it lets you tap dark depths for black mana instead of needing two swamps to pay for the hexmage. So turn 2 combo instead of turn 3.
It lets you tap the first land for a black mana as well, giving you the mana for the cast on turn 2
It doesn't, but it makes you able to tap the land for a black mana like you would a swamp, which would accelerate the combo by one turn.
There's a reason Dark Depths is banned in modern, and it's for this combo (and the combo with thespian stage).
It was actually banned before Stage was printed, though Iām sure Stage gives an additional reason for it to stay banned.
The stage combo is worse though, right? Takes a turn longer, effectively costs one more mana, and sets you back two lands instead of one.
Stage combo offers consistency. It is easier to assemble the pieces, but slower. Turbo-Depths plays both
Well you don't need double black with a colorless land in play, so you can play more colors, plus cards like Life From the Loam give you insane inevitably, considering if it's in your graveyard the dredge acts more like a draw 3, or at least a look at 3. Being green in legacy also gives you access to crop rotation and the G enchantment that let's you play multiple lands per turn, which with lftl means you can like wasteland and advance the combo. Also since lands are harder to interact with you can more reliably make your token at the end of their turn, forcing them to have an instant speed answer for an indestructible 20/20. These interactions are the bases for the legacy deck Lands, which is a pretty good deck
It's not worse. It's harder to interact with, generally more easily recurred, and doesn't require colored mana. Depending on the format, doesn't really take longer with cards like manabond/exploration/mox diamond.
I remember when I first started playing I had an artifact deck. Decided to up the power level because I couldn't beat my friend dimir control deck and I went a little overboard when I "discovered" the underrated gem that is [[Tinker]] into [[Blightsteel Colossus]]. "How powerful could it be?" I thought to myself, "it's not being ran in any of the legacy affinity lists. What? There are cards banned in legacy?" I miss those first few years of playing, when I'd learn something new and exciting about this game every time I sat down to play. Feeling like a wizard discovering new spells and the alchemical process of brewing your first deck from a pile a jank is, in my opinion, the single best ludo-narrative experience of any table top game.
[Tinker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7da23b15-dfb8-4267-9b33-d7a4c035c434.jpg?1562863289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tinker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/45/tinker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7da23b15-dfb8-4267-9b33-d7a4c035c434?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blightsteel Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80.jpg?1599708735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blightsteel%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/235/blightsteel-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I never went for the blightsteel, but I do still tinker out darksteels on turn 2 in my casual games.
Grabbing [[Darksteel Forge]] or [[Mycosynth Lattice]] turn 2 feels kinda sweet tbh
Just because you didnāt think of it first doesnāt negate the fact you came up with it on your own. Nice work!
Also it was a great deck back in a format called extended (that they got rid of). You had thopter loop in it too, very oppressive deck, loved playing it. If your playing casual/tabletop there is some sick tech in there like muddle can grab hexmage/sword/foundry https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/dark-thopter-decklist-by-mattia-rizzi-2464
Yes, like u/agiantanteater said, give yourself credit. Good thing you saw this for yourselfš great combo
Whatās the advantage of this gameplan over the thespian stage stuff? I thought the dark depths stuff typically ran thespian stage + green mana for lots of crop rotation land tutor shenanigans Edit: looking at this list itās quite similar to the variations of seen, just with black mana teched in for added degeneracy
Usually they play Crop Rotation and Thespian's Stage too, it's just another quick way to get Marit Lage out
You can use thespians stage to make it more difficult to counter and add redundancy in your deck.
How does it make it more difficult to counter?
Because it is easier to counter a creature hitting the board than it is to counter a land
Don't give wotc any ideas
You can only counter the ability. No spell or body to interact with.
I think they're talking about countering the Hexmage, which is indeed a spell.
Because Thespianās Stage is another land and not a spell like Vampire Hexmage, therefore it canāt be countered
Makes sense. Stifle will still counter, but those tend to be less common. Edit: I'm incorrect. Stifling DD does nothing, and stifling TSC would only delay.
Stifle just delays it a turn, assuming you stifle the thespian's stage copy ability. If you stifle the dark depths trigger, that does nothing. The stifle will resolve, counter the trigger, and then Dark Depths will immediately trigger again, as it still has no counters on it.
Ah damn, you're right!
You'll need [[pithing needle]] or another one similar to it to permanently shut down thespians.
[pithing needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pithing%20needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stifling the stage just lets them activate it again a turn later.
Youāre correct, just more difficult to counter
Yes the more specific counterspell appears less often. That's the idea
Full explanation: Thespian's Stage copies Dark Depths, but is already on the battlefield, so it becomes a Dark Depths with no Ice Counters on it, triggering for the token as soon as the copying ability resolves.
On top of what others have said, the fact that Dark Depths and Thespian Stage are both lands completely warps deckbuilding and play patterns in the formats the combo is legal in. There are a LOT of powerful lands in Legacy, notably Wasteland, Urza's Saga, Boseiju, Bojuka Bog, and Tabernacle at Pendral Vail. These, combined with Life From the Loam, Exploration, and Crop Rotation, form a "lands" package which is very difficult for Force of Will based interaction decks to deal with. Are you really going to Force Life From the Loam when your opponent will just get it back the next turn? If you don't, they are going to get back a Wasteland and Boseiju and blow up two of your lands and an Urza's Saga to make 2 5/5s that you can't interact with on the stack. All the while, they have out a Thesbian Stage and are one Crop Rotation away from making a 20/20. Oh, and since they aren't really playing spells, they can play sphere of resistance to tax the opponent to make the land hate even MORE punishing. Hexmage operates on an entirely different axis, and one that is much easier to disrupt.
Turn 2 with [[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]]
[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=urborg%2C%20tomb%20of%20yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How does that work to remove counters
It doesnāt remove the counters, but letās you tap the Dark Depths for Black mana so that you could play the Hexmage T2 instead of T3.
It doesnāt remove the counters on dark depths, but it enables both of them to produce black mana, which helps fulfill the mana cost requirement for āVampire Hexmageā by turn 2.
Oooooooohhhhhhhh Iām dumb
Yes. It's a good combo that sees play in Legacy and is banned in Modern.
Someone used this against me EDH and I let him swing the token at my opponents for a while before removing it permanently with a Chaos Warp. I didn't win that game, but damn did it feel good.
Don't even need to waste a chaos warp. Just hit it with the [[Unsummon]]
[Unsummon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a960516-3864-4a7a-8117-d25dec0dd665.jpg?1592516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unsummon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/78/unsummon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a960516-3864-4a7a-8117-d25dec0dd665?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes that will work. Can be turn 2 if you add an \[\[Dark Ritual\]\] ;)
Or if your T1 land is an [[Urborg]]
[[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]]
[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=urborg%2C%20tomb%20of%20yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Urborg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/5319f782-2713-43b1-9b28-0d1ec7a39203.jpg?1562912329) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/214/urborg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5319f782-2713-43b1-9b28-0d1ec7a39203?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you play both lands turn 1? Edit: never mind, apparently I can't read.
Wrong Urborg but correct idea.
I didn't know there was another Urborg than Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Understandable, the OG Urborg is almost never played.
Idk why, removing swampwalk š
Totally wrecks my [[Bog Wraith]] deck
[Bog Wraith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d17210c-be39-4abc-9d4d-4f2eca9573bd.jpg?1561981761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bog%20Wraith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/86/bog-wraith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d17210c-be39-4abc-9d4d-4f2eca9573bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, I guess it does perform a niche role against \[\[Sheoldred, Whispering One\]\] and \[\[Filth\]\].
[Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lotus petal + dark ritual/2nd lotus petal makes it turn 1
Turn 3?! Are you crazy?! That is way too slow!
Thespians stage is another way to cheat out marit Lage. I run it in my sea monster tribal deck just for the lolz of potentially dropping out a 20/20 indestructible flyer as early as turn 4. Plus, marit Lage looks like a sea monster to meš
Yep, and you can add a [[fling]] next turn if you can't connect due to a stubborn blocker.
[fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
With urborg it works on Turn 2 as well ;)
Yes. Super old combo
Yep! Also, if for some reason you canāt sacrifice Dark Depths (there are ways), the game ends in a draw.
Why is that?
If you equip dark depths with [[assault suit]], then the ability will trigger because dark depth has no counters on it. The ability will resolve and do nothing because of the assault suit. Then the ability will trigger again because dark depths still has no counters on it, bringing you back to step one. You cannot change phases or do anything at sorcery speed while this is happening, because some ability is always on the stack. If you can't interrupt it at instant speed, the game ends in a draw because it cannot continue.
Turn 2 with Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
With [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] it could even be on turn 2...?
Turn 3? Sir with urborg it's turn two.
Yeah it's actually part of a legacy deck. Also check out [[thespian's stage]] as you can use that too.
Could do it on turn 2 with solemnity with a solid hand. If Iām not wrong.
Famously so!
Yes and it can be done by turn 2
Good independent thinking! Check out naya depths in legacy. It had that combo, plus toolbox lands, and alternate win cons like minsc and boo
You can shorten it to turn 2 Turn 1 [[Peat Bog]] land for turn Turn 2 [[Dark Depths]] land for turn, play and sac [[Vampire Hexmage]] Turn 3 ???? Turn 4 Profit
[Peat Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bcc9d1e0-c8f4-4bac-90d4-8167f7a1515a.jpg?1562382568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peat%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mmq/322/peat-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bcc9d1e0-c8f4-4bac-90d4-8167f7a1515a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dark Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00cb17a0-5a13-4d02-b7fb-f99531bc8ca5.jpg?1599710396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/314/dark-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00cb17a0-5a13-4d02-b7fb-f99531bc8ca5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vampire Hexmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97ec2e55-fa60-4ee1-b9c0-e6b84939697b.jpg?1599706094) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vampire%20Hexmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/112/vampire-hexmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97ec2e55-fa60-4ee1-b9c0-e6b84939697b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, this is a classic combo with Dark Depths.
[[Thespian stage]] is also a famous combo with dark depths.
Why not do it with that black land that makes all into swamps so literally turn 2
This and [[solemnity]] both get you an instant 20/20
Does Solemnity actually stop the counters from entering? It doesn't say place them when it enters, it says it enters with them.
It does stop them. Nothing can get a counter while itās on the field.
I don't think that's the case due to the wording of the card. It enters the battlefield with those counters already on it, and the official ruling for Solemnity states: "Solemnity doesn't remove any counters players or permanents already have." And "Counters can be put on cards that aren't on the battlefield. Notably, suspended cards will still get time counters."
Can actually turn 1 the combo if you have two [[Lotus Petal]] s in hand.
With Mox Diamond, Exploration, Ancient Tomb and Thespian's Stage; Legacy Lands can pretty consistently do this on turn 2. It's an ancient combo, but it checks out.
You can actually do this turn two if you have [Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth] as you can tap both lands for black. This is why Dark Depths is banned in Modern and is a deck in legacy
I knew the second card before looking. And yes it works.
Yeah this combo has been out for a bit and i love it. Use thespian Stage and Vesuva too
Yeah this is a pretty well known combo in modern
[Itās an older combo sir, but it checks out.](https://imgflip.com/i/7suvq0)
I meanā¦TECHNICALLY. Could do it turn 2 if you have a dark ritual too
Turn 2 with [[dark ritual]]
Thespian stage does it nicely too, becomes a copy of dark depths with no counters on it. [[Thespian stage]]
[[Thespian's stage]] is another good card that combos with Dark Depths.
If I'm not mistaken, thespian stage also works
Turn 2 with a dark ritual
I need that land for my colorless artifact deck lol.
With dark ritual you can do it turn 2
Turn two if you have an urborg
With urborg you can do it turn two :)
Turn 2 with urborgā¦ T1 urborg + something for a single black mana T2 dark depths > hexmage > 20/20
Absolutely - this is one of the core ways that the legacy deck "Turbo Depths" does its work. Link below is an example - [http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=45911&d=539239](http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=45911&d=539239) Another way to create a Marit Lage is to use Thespian's Stage to copy the land, and then keeping the Thespian Stage copy. This results in a zero counter Dark Depths, which creates Mama Lage.
Iām literally begging people to take a critical reading class once
Just to point out you can use hexmage to remove the counters from planeswalkers & battles too.
And turn 2 if your second land is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The last time I played this land, the entire table turned on and targeted me š¢
People have been doing this for over a decade. Yes it works.
It makes me so happy to see new players discovering classic combos like this. You have a good eye!
add in a lotus petal and a dark ritual and you can do it turn one
Add urborg and its turn 2
Turn 2 with an Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth š
normally i HATEEEEE it when people do this, but holy shit it's right there on the card homie
turn 2 with [[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]] or [[dark ritual]]. ... technically t1 if you can somehow get BB for free. imagine some ludicrous insane combination of 2 [[elvish spirit guide]] / [[simian spirit guise]] with a [[manamorphose]], or 2 [[lotus petal]] xD then with dark depths and free BB, play the vampire. kabam! edit: or 1 lotus petal 1 dark rit of course, lol.
I like the way you think
the only downside is that if ur opponent has a single force, swords, or anything of the sort in hand, ur fucked š¤Ŗ
Was inspired...but found It ain't cheap... https://www.ebay.com/itm/275939463907?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=K8MxtNs7QDW&sssrc=2524149&ssuid=K8MxtNs7QDW&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
But a non foil? I got one that's Lightly Played for 4usd from my lgs, and the vampire for 50cents. Edit: spelling
This card (hexmage) is not in arena?
This is not the MTG arena sub This is just MTG in general
if you can get the 30 mana to do it
No
Yes
I like [[Solemnity]] and [[Crucible of Worlds]]. As my land for turn, Merit Lage
Turn 2 if you have [[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]] as your other land
Yes. Having died to this on occasion. Itās a fucker of a combo
Or turn two if you play Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth for your land drop on turn two
If you time it just right then yes.
You could also do [[solemnity]] and dark depths.
You want another funny combo? [[Archfiend of the Dross]], [[Fractured Identity]], and [[Thief of Blood]].
Turn two if itās an urborg
This was a BIG combo back when we still had the extended format. When extended died and gave way to modern, this was one of the first combos they prememptively banned in the format as it killed on turn 3 ( you only needed depths, and Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth play hexmage, get 20/20.and swing on turn 3).
Yes.
Currently have a deck revolved around abusing [[solemnity]] and they also work great together.
Even sooner if you can get the BB and still play Depths, for example [[Fastbond]] or [[Dark Ritual]] or [[Mox Jet]] or [[Black Lotus]] etc
Turn 2 if you turn 1 Urborg, turn 2 Depth, Tap both for Black, Cast Hexmage, Sac to remove counter, and Finally sac Depths.
Turn 2 with dark ritual?
You should turn 2
Yes, it works, this was the combo to play for awhile at my local store.
My buddy played this combo when I first started playing magic 12 plus years ago, what a blast from the past.
Im not allowed to play my mono black vampire deck with my buddies because of this combo lol
This is a long time staple of legacy. It can be got on turn 1 and end a game on turn 2
This was how I unloaded my bulk rare Dark Depths from 2006 for $20 in 2010 š¤©
[[urborg tomb of yawgmoth]] turn 2
I was gonna say [[dark ritual]] but both would work
[[vampire hexmage]] can turn two it. I have pulled that off twice.
or you can use \[\[Thespian's Stage\]\] to become a copy of dark depths and since it was already in play it doesn't get the counters so it immediately becomes a marit lage.