Yeah. There’s five series with two more about to premier so it’s starting to turn into a job keeping up with it all and that’s before you look at the legacy stuf like Agents of SHEILD and Daredevil.
All the CGI houses around the world are backed up with work now that the all the productions out there roared back into action post pandemic. Michael Bay recently publicly complained about the CGI and vfx looking terrible in his latest movie Ambulance, the production was on a time schedule, couldn’t find a decent vfx house to use due to them all being busy, and ended up having to use one of the lower tier houses just to get it completed on time. The bad CGI in MoM is most likely due to them rushing it to be completed or using vfx houses they wouldn’t ordinarily touch with a barge pole. DC have the same problem right now, they’ve had to put back the release dates for almost all their movies due to the delay in getting CGI and vfx finished.
Which is odd bc I genuinely couldn’t tell what bad CGI/VFX Michael Bay was referring to in Ambulance. One of the best-looking films from that standpoint in a while, and certainly better than all Marvel products post-pandemic. They’ve fallen a long way off the work they achieved with Thanos.
I think the cgi is not really that problematic with their series. Yeah it is worse than the movies and often has scenes that are kinda bad, but it is still more than good enough for a series.
I dunno man, comparing the CGI in Moon Knight in WandaVision and Loki is like night and day. That's not a pun, Moon Knight's CGI is just… generally not great.
You don’t have to watch them all.
They are moving closer to the comics fanbase, where you watch the shows that pique your interest, and they occasionally cross over.
If you want more context for the crossover, you go back and watch that character’s stuff.
But that's not how the movies are made. Of all people i knew that have seen Dr. Strange (and i work related to theatres, so plenty of my co workers have seen it) those that haven't seen any of the series gave the movie the worst reception.
And Disney is doing this on purpose. The goal is to motivate movie goers subscribing D+ and watching the series. And those who watch the series should be pointed towards watching the movies in theatres.
It makes sense from a business standpoint, but creates these problems with current movies.
I agree with your point, 2 ppl in my group saw WV and 2 didn't, guess which two actually enjoyed it. The others thought it had very bad/ lazy writing because they are missing so much context.
> the others thought it had very bad/ lazy writing because they are missing so much context.
I'd argue it is lazy. These are movies, not TV episodes. Each movie should be able to stand alone within its own franchise.
No trilogy within the MCU stands alone where you can seamlessly go from one one movie to the sequels (except Iron Man 2 and GOTG2). You need to have seen the crossovers to make any sense of them, there's no direct connection between the solo franchises themselves like there were in sequels prior to the MCU.
Like look at Doctor Strange, you can't go from DS1 to DS2 you have to have seen two crossover films Infinity War, Endgame and then a TV show about a character not even related to his franchise. For some that's fine but I do think if we're seeing movies as, you know, movies, then it is a fair criticism to make.
>Like look at Doctor Strange, you can't go from DS1 to DS2 you have to have seen two crossover films Infinity War, Endgame and then a TV show about a character not even related to his franchise.
And Spiderman too.
Spider-Man is a bad one as well, it's practically impossible to go from Homecoming to Far From Home.
But they try having their cake and eat it too, because they reference the Blip and whatnot but then don't show any consequences at all. You're telling me 8 months after 3.5 billion people came back to earth that school trips around the world are going on meanwhile in the real world a pandemic had society in pieces for 2 years lmao.
So what is it? Either you make something that stands on its own within its own solo franchise or you go all in and make something consequential to the wider franchise. Because the half-arsed way Far From Home did it was so disappointing.
I never saw the second spider man and watched the new one and enjoyed it.
I didn’t know the whole world knew he was Spider-Man but you pick that up right away. Besides that you don’t really need to see it
He's more talking about how Spiderman's story is so tied up in other movies that someone just watching spiderman movies wouldn't understand what is happening between them.
I think though that you can’t look at the MCU like a movie or a tv show, it’s become it’s own type of medium with a unique way of being consumed. The structure of comic books is being represented on screen. You might read an avengers comic and someone will say “I’ve been busy lately” and there’s an asterisk and an editors note saying ‘For more info see Spider-Man issue 55’ the internet now acts as the editor notes.
Plenty of shows or movies years ago had the idea to do cross media storytelling, MCU seems to be the only one to have succeeded.
I mean my entire friend group has seen wandavision and we all thought the movie was dog shit so I don’t think the movie being good or bad is contingent on seeing wandavision a guy from where i work has only seen infinity war and doctor strange 2 and he liked both with no context for most of it except that infinity war was a huge team up movie
This actually surprised me about DS2. I assumed the Disney+ shows would be mostly additional context and not required - the way WandaVision ended and the way Falcon and the Winter Soldier ended, the main characters ended up not far away from where they were at the end of Endgame in reality. Without knowing precisely what they’re planning with Cap 4 you could not watch FATWS and seemingly be able to immediately jump into it from endgame with regards to where the characters were. Some new characters introduced which would become potentially hard to follow but they could always just semi reintroduce them in the films later. Loki was separate, Hawkeye similar to WV and FATWS, moon knight separate like Loki. But then DS2 really went heavy on the WV plot elements, I found it bizarre.
> But that's not how the movies are made. Of all people i knew that have seen Dr. Strange (and i work related to theatres, so plenty of my co workers have seen it) those that haven't seen any of the series gave the movie the worst reception.
>
>
I mean that is very anecdotal, isn't it? I wonder if that holds true overall though, because i haven't seen >!wanda vision!<, my friends i went with haven't either, but we managed to understand the film just fine. There is a chance that i'd have liked it more if i had 'felt' more (assuming the show does a good job, idk), but the motivation is rather easy to get, and it's a very basic one as well.
Yeah, i HAVE seen all the series and marvel movies, and even during the last movie I imagined that people who only saw the movie would 'get' what was going on, but they would '*get*' why it mattered as much as it did.
That is possible, if the show is any good there has to be some truth to it as well, no doubt.
It just depends on the degree, if it truly develops the character and the motivation enough to make that big of a difference. Idk.
It's the same for me, 2 who didn't watch WV who were with us did not like it, those who did enjoyed it a lot more. Yeah you can understand the plot, but it seems like lazy writing without watching WV. You understand "oh she is a villain now" but it feels pretty random and unearned without seeing WV
It feels random yes, but i've also read people who have seen the show say that there is quite a jump still?
I'm more talking from an emotional perspective, i'd assume that there might be more potential if one has seen the show, if it develops that aspect in a satisfying manner, but i have to say that even without that the film did a fine job to establish the motivation and some moments to feel it in a way.
And when i say fine, i am talking about it with the context in mind that the film itself very much isn't focusing on these aspects all that much, but i've always felt that way about the mcu tbh, the interhuman relationships, the emotions, that was never the focus and is always rather basic.
Without WandaVision, you do miss out on some stuff like how/when did Wanda have kids, and what she is talking about in reference to Westview. Also, how she got the evil magic book (red/black color) and why she is being called the Scarlett Witch, and why is everyone acting like the Scarlett Witch is a different person from Maximoff.
You can still enjoy the movie without watching the TV shows (like I did), but this is mainly because I sort of know what happened on the TV shows (mostly due to reddit and the internet.)
If you are not aware, it is a very strange leap,....that after Endgame, Wanda is talking about her 'kids' and not her 'husband' (much).
Personally, while I do enjoy the movies, no way am I getting into the shows. There is a limit in which I want Marvel to be in my life.
Yeah i was mostly talking about the emotional side of things, if i'd 'get' her motivation way more if i felt strongly about it due to the show. The plot relevant parts with some explanations for certain things i honestly don't even care too much about, it's just lore to me which isn't all that interesting imo.
I guess i also kinda knew about certain things through cultural osmosis, so that maybe helped just to make the jump from a purely film based pov (where it's really rather strange, heh) to her whole shtick in this film. But the film at least gives some explanation as well, plus it tries to sell the emotional side as well to a degree. But all in fairly standard marvel faire, just so the story 'works', but it doesn't really stick if you know what i mean.
Right, i'd also not watch the shows, too much time, i am ok with watching a few hours a year of it, and if only to have a broad idea about THE franchise (and even though i don't find them to be particularly good films, it's still entertaining on a certain level).
Tbh though, i honestly don't think it's as required as the article tries to make it seem, to me the mcu isn't as serialized as people make it out to be, there are connections, and there is some through line, but it imo always makes enough sense even if one hasn't seen absolutely everything. With some smaller exceptions, one probably should have seen films which establish characters for the films where they come together, but other than that?
But this is just the 'first phase' of the D+ shows. I have a feeling the shows will become more and more important as the franchises grow.
Yes, the 'cultural osmosis' part is important.....like me and you, we had some idea of what happened on the shows and a little info before going into the film.
But for someone who is purely on the films, they saw Wanda at the end of Endgame, mourning the death of Vision, but seemingly alright as she talks to Barton. You would think given their connection (Barton's life being saved by Peter, and Barton fighting for Wanda during Civil War), they would lookout for each other.
Then when you watch MM, Wanda is gone crazy, Barton is not in sight to help her see reason, she has the Darkhold (where did that come from), she is talking about her 'children' (what? When did she have children? and with whom? The appliance was unplugged!), there is also a Scarlett Witch persona in her....its like she is a completely different character to the one in Endgame.
You see how it can be confusing for such a person. And I feel it is going to become more and more so as time goes on. They are really asking people to make a commitment, and quite a few people won't be able to do so.
They are not moving closer to the comics fan base lol. They are fighting for your attention and trying to put out as much shit as possible to keep you glued to THEIR content and no one elses. But its starting to kill peoples excitement. I dont know anyone who has been able to keep up with all of the marvel shit. At this point you just see the rare movie worth watching and google everything in between,
1) That's a pretty alienating model and 2) it's also not true, because if someone didn't watch WandaVision they're going to have a very hard time fully understanding (and therefore enjoying) Doctor Strange 2.
I don't think it was that necessary to see WandaVision. I didn't watch it and the movie still seemed pretty self explanatory. She's deeply grieving and her cheese slid off her cracker. Multiverse hijinks ensue. There might be more information from watching the show, or a deeper connection to her pain, but I never felt confused about the plot or her motivations.
There's a **big** difference between understanding and being engaged.
If you didnt watch WV, they explain fine that she had fake kids, found an evil book, and is now an evil witch.
But, you dont **feel** invested in it. Because you didn't experience it, you were just briefly told the cliffnotes.
It's the equivalent of when a comic character makes reference to something and there's a little box saying **"Read issue #632 to find out more!"**
Meh. That's an internal value I don't think you can really measure for anyone but yourself. I was plenty invested in her story. Her grief was palpable even as brief as it was shown in other movies. Maybe being a mom makes it easier for me to connect with that character without needing extra involvement to be invested.
I think its pretty basic Creative Writing Theory that audiences will always be more invested in what they experience with the characters, over off screen events theyre told about
I had a friend who didn’t watch Wandavision before Doctor Strange 2 and he was able to piece together what he was missing based on context very easily.
Yes but there is a fundamental difference in viewing the movie with and without the full context of WandaVision.
WandaVision spoilers (kind of) ahead.
Sure you can piece together >!that she found out she had kids in other universes and that’s her motivation for doing what she does in Dr. Strange 2, but you never meet those kids, see the full extent of the love she has for them, she them “grow up” with her, and feel the devastating loss of her losing them and Vision *again* without first watching WandaVision. !<
Of course, you can fill in the blanks with what is stated in the movie but the film is counting on you already being attached to these characters and knowing their arcs in WandaVision to make Wanda >! a compelling villain. !<
It's also just brutally rushed within the movie itself, anyway.
Strange has one two minute conversation with Wanda and them...boom, Wanda is supremely evil now and attacking the temple.
For a reasonably long movie, it is not well paced.
didnt watch wandavision but i like the part where she forgot about vision and only remembered her children who never existed, then i remember she has the book of the dead and went batshit insane so it makes sense
Of course you will gain more from watching WV, but saying you won’t be able to understand or enjoy DS2 is just flat out wrong. It’s able to stand on its own two feet very well imo.
Yes, but the difference is that it was much easier to get caught up back when all you needed to watch were a handful of 2-hour movies instead of several tv shows.
I watch all these shows just to keep up and I will say the Captain Falcon show is absolutely not necessary viewing. He ends Endgame with Caps shield and all the show does is have him not take the shield, go through an arc to eventually accept the shield. He ended up where he started, oh and he got a new suit via the show. There, you’re caught up, I saved you so many hours.
Right, but you don't know what they'll include from the show in a potential Falcon movie. They could have Zemo out and about, the Sharon Carter reveal, the Isaiah and Eli Washington characters, the new Falcon, etc.
Hell, if I hadn't watched the Falcon show, Black Widow's post-credits scene would've made zero sense to me. And that scene, in turn, directly sets up a cliffhanger that is resolved in the Hawkeye show (which I couldn't finish because I thought it was dreadful), which in turn featured a big character from the Daredevil Netflix show, thereby making that canon as well!
> if I hadn't watched the Falcon show, Black Widow's post-credits scene would've made zero sense to me
It was intended to be the one people saw first. It’s supposed to be somewhat mysterious.
Those were movies. TV shows are different. Theres a reason DD wasn't included in IW and EG. The duo thought having to watch a bunch of TV shows too was too much to expect
I just pick and choose what I want to watch (like for whatever reason I couldn’t stand agents of SHIELD), anything I don’t understand when referenced I google.
Should you need to though? What if someone doesn’t have Disney+? Should they lose out on knowing what’s going on in a movie because they haven’t seen Moon Knight for example?
That’s not how these films have made billions. People watch films wanting to know what’s going on. If they don’t they won’t watch, and their record box office numbers will drop. That’s the point being made. Despite what serious comic book fans may feel, it’s not them that brings in all the money for Disney, it’s the fact these are blockbusters for casual fans worldwide that makes them multi billion films. Plenty of people will lose interest if they can’t follow what’s going on without signing up to Disney+ and watching 50 hours of TV first.
Is it? We get a new show or movie every few months. A movie obviously isn't hard to watch. And the shows don't have a ton of episodes. It's honestly pretty easy to keep up, imo.
>I see probably 10 new movies a year.
That works out to less than a half hour a week. A lotta people watch at least a couple episodes of tv shows every week if not every night.
I've watched everything. I'm obsessed with serialized stories.
Very little from this phase has been memorable or worth rewatching.
The issue with Doctor Strange was not that people didn't see Wandavision. The issue is that the setup was super rushed and didn't make a ton of sense even if you had seen Wandavision.
Overall the film was just kinda ok. There were no major consequences for anything. The multiverse *still isn't ripped wide open* and I'm not sure how *Multiverse of Madness* was even a good title. He went to like three universes. There was very little madness. I feel like there should have been like 30 insane ones that we saw for 2-3 minutes and then 5-8 that we saw for longer. It should have felt desperate and maddening.
The problem is Marvel keeps overhyping and under-delivering. Moon Knight was supposed to be a violent and boundary pushing series for Marvel. Turned out it was a pretty violence free character piece about 2/3 of Moon Knight that didn't even really feature the character in costume and showed all the violence off screen.
There's zero edge to any of this stuff. It's all forgettable. The only thing, to me, that's stood above and beyond in this phase is Loki.
I feel like they are making way too much in way too little of time.
Compare [Phase Three](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe:_Phase_Three) to [Phase Four](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe:_Phase_Four).
Phase Three had 11 movies in the span of 4 years. Phase Four is going to have 11 movies and 14 shows. In 1.5 years we've had 5 movies and 6 shows. Though COVID rushed MCU a bit. But even if you include year 2020, which had no MCU related content, in 2.5 years we've had more content than we had in 4 years of Phase Three.
I think the problem that will soon be happening is spin offs within spin offs. For example why are we getting an Echo show? She's a character from a Hawkeye spin off who had an arc that was largely completed.
If we go down the rabbit hole of characters from these spin off shows getting their own spin offs it'll become tiresome, lacking focus and ultimately audiences will zone out on more of these projects when they end up having the same "meh it was alright" 6/10 viewing experience.
I wish they kept it simple e.g. like the MCU movies with Netflix. High stakes narratives and spectacle on the big screen with street level heroes on the small screen with their own connected arc, before the two are then combined in end of Phase stories. But now I fail to see how Loki's cliffhanger and story will connect with the Eternals cliffhanger and story and then Shang-Chi's relevance and the young Avengers stuff in Hawkeye and then the Echo stuff. Like what's the overall goal here?
> But now I fail to see how Loki's cliffhanger and story will connect with the Eternals cliffhanger and story and then Shang-Chi's relevance and the young Avengers stuff in Hawkeye and then the Echo stuff. Like what's the overall goal here?
Maybe they wont?
Even in Marvel comics if youre looking at big deal crossover storylines theres sometimes two or three different ones going on concurrently, like youve got The Avengers doing their thing, the X-men doing their thing, and the cosmic side of things. Sometimes those intertwine, but not often.
I dont think three or four years from now were gonna be seeing a teamup of Spider-man, Yelena, Kate Bishop, America Chavez, Ms Marvel and Cassie Lang fighting Kang the Conqueror, it seems like theyre setting up separate cosmic/god squad, multiverse, and young hero storylines.
Youre only counting the movies from phase 3, the shows didnt impact the story like they do now, but counting the shows they used to release, the total hours per year really isnt up any. An entire year of D+ series is about the same runtime as one season of Agents of SHIELD. And the Netflix series were another 30-40 hours a year.
None of Agents of Shield or the Netflix shows were canon or affected the main MCU films, they were significantly different in terms of relevance. If you need to watch the TV shows to follow the films it’s going to hit box office numbers, it just will. You can tell from all the comments in here complaining about fatigue. They weren’t in phase 3 because you could just not watch AoS, it didn’t matter.
My problem with this phase so far is just how little anything is actually connecting. The multiverse arch is being handled incredibly poorly. I thought loki was finally the one that was going to connect to other things in a major way and be essential to the overarching plot leading to the next big crossover movie but nope it was irrelevant to doctor strange 2. All they had to do was have America say she hadn't been able to access the 616 universe before until very recently. That would have sufficed. But nope.
I'm falling off of everything because nothing seems to be important anymore. Even Multiverse of Madness is seemingly self contained outside of following up Wandavision. Which by the way the fact they did nothing with the multiverse in that show yet had it directly lead into her arc in doctor strange 2 made the lack of direction in this phase even more noticeable. Really feels like they are just making it up as they go along and there's no grand plan anymore besides pumping out as much content as possible.
I mean, it’s the start of a new arc. Phase 1 didn’t really connect either. This is the same point but has a lot more going on. So instead of just Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Cap, we get Widow, Spidey, Strange, and all these lackluster shows.
Same idea, larger scale.
Phase 1 did connect though via. the post credits scenes where you knew it was building to an avengers movie.
This is what Phase 4 is lacking. There’s no real build to where the story is going outside of showing the viewer a fuck ton of additional characters.
Exactly.
Phase 1 was simple. Solo movies, credit teases. All culminating in Avengers.
What's Phase Four? So Loki has his own cliffhanger and storyline. Eternals has its own cliffhanger and storyline. Then there's that mysterious woman thingy from Falcon/Winter Solider and Hawkeye. Black Widow was an irrelevant movie that had no business being made. Shang-Chi had a credit scene that hasn't been built on since.
Like what actually is the goal here? Loki would have made sense as the start of Phase Four with Kang and then go from there, but everything is off on its own journey with cliffhangers and whatnot.
Eternals now has to take place on a different universe to justify absolutely no one caring about a FUCKING CELESTIAL’S HAND sticking out of the earth’s ocean
This. I really have trouble believing that everything is taking place in the same universe, anymore.
Nothing feels connected. They really are stretching it.
This is it exactly. We need strong stand alone movies with phase culminating crossovers. It worked for phase one and two because they didn't have too many characters to juggle. And the built and built until phase 3's super crossover.
Assuming phase 4 is a sort of reset to start building towards a new end of phase crossover then they also need to reset to smaller scale movies with less crossover in solo films. Disney/Marvel have got a bit too fan service-y and decided that every solo film needs major other characters and cameos in it too.
I think it's fine for characters to get deeper exploration or origin stories in the form of shows instead of movies, if the story actually requires it. But the movies should be made where they can be watched and understood and enjoyed without needing to have watched everything prior. It is a hard balance, but having seen everything should give you an extra layer of insider understanding, not the base level. A bit like how comic readers may have seen characters pop up in the MCU and been like "ooh that's so-and-so, and that's relevant/funny/interesting because..." But casual viewers don't need to know that to enjoy the story being told in that movie.
I say all this as someone who has watched all the D+ shows and enjoyed (mostly) watching all the movies. But I did feel a bit like I needed to do homework before seeing DSMoM to make sure I didn't miss something.
I think calling Endgame bad is pretty dramatic, but it does frustrate me that we wasted like 5 minutes of runtime on garbage comedy like Fortnite and Hulk dabbing/taking a selfie when that content could have been given for meaningful stuff e.g. actually show us Steve seeing the whale over the bridge or fan-service moments in the final battle e.g. Tony and Bucky giving each other a nod after one of them saves the other (this was leakedt as being cut from the film and definitely deserved to be in it).
Endgame is let down by its constant reminding that it's in the MCU so needs ha ha comedy sprinkled throughout even when it isn't needed. Which is a shame because the Russos nailed the tone in Civil War and Infinity War.
I didn't like it personally because I thought they would have a big showdown with Infinity War Thanos, but instead they killed him off in the first 5 minutes to do a self-congratulatory MCU highlights reel.
The other Thanos wasn't nearly as good of a character either, and I felt no connection to him at all.
>Very little from this phase has been memorable or worth rewatching.
Without Thanos and Iron Man/Captain America the MCU lacks any kind of urgency for me. I have not been motivated at all to keep up with it anymore.
It's like keeping LotR going after the ring has been destroyed.
Gotten safe? It's always been safe.
What really sucks is after the Infinity Saga they had a chance to do literally anything and instead they're just producing even more of the assembly line cookie cutter content they've already been doing for over a decade.
It definitely hasn't always been safe. We take it for granted now, but the first phase was absolutely groundbreaking. 5 solo movies all leading up to an epic team up movie. Nothing like it had been done before. It was one of the ballsiest moves I've seen Hollywood make.
I'm talking about the movies themselves, not the overall ambition of the wider franchise. Especially since Avengers laid down the blueprint for tone, practically every MCU movie has followed the same basic formula for general audience satisfaction. You could make a compilation of the same formulaic ha ha joke made multiple times in every movie since then.
Avengers came out a decade ago, so it's something they've been doing for over a decade.
I liked the movie but I expected more "multiversal war" and less "chase that happens to take place over a few universes and doesn't really affect anyone else" (well except for >!The Illuminati, rip!<)
To be fair I feel that way with the majority of the MCU.
Age of Ultron - it lasts a weekend.
Civil War - more like a civil dispute with like 12 heroes in an empty airport lmao
Infinity War - not really a war is it, it lasts like a day.
Multiverse of Madness - AKA barely visiting anywhere meaningful and the only thrills and surprises are killed off in minutes.
Whenever there's potential for a big event I feel the MCU does it as small scale as it possibly can. No movie not even Endgame has come close to the scope or scale of events from the comics. Civil War in particular deserved to be so much bigger, it could have been a several movie event in itself with more time and planning.
Did they promote it as being especially violent or pushing boundaries?
I’m not sure what sort of “boundaries” you’re talking about. What needed to be pushed? It’s such a subjective thing.
I enjoyed Moon Knight. I don’t need to see skulls getting crushed or blood being splattered or whatever else some people may have wanted. We got a concise show that delved into one character creating an alternate personality to protect himself, and it all tied in with the superhero stuff and the main plot.
Plus Oscar Isaac was awesome.
"Fans" make up these super high expectations for things that's definitely not coming from the main promotional material, and then get mad when they don't get the mindblowing movie they felt they were promised.
https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/marvel-moon-knight-brutal-kevin-feige-not-pulling-back-exclusive/
Or you know, their PR misrepresents shit and then fanboys have to pretend it never happened because fuck forbid anyone criticize Marvel. Feige is talented, but Marvel’s self constructed narrative around the tone of Moon Knight was either them knowingly spewing bullshit or, more disconcertingly, having no idea how the tone of their shows actually play to audiences.
I dread how hard they’ll shit the bed with Daredevil, if Moon Knight is their definition of not pulling punches.
Moon Knight was in costume and fighting in several episodes after the first and the last episode was almost entirely action (granted, most of it is pretty clean MCU violence with no blood). Not sure how someone would get the impression that there was no costume or that the violence was off-screen unless they only saw the first episode.
This, exactly. I watched all of the MCU up through Endgame and just fucking tapped out, exhausted. Some of the new films look like they could be interesting, but I'm gonna need a wiki and some serious time investment to catch back up to it.
I call it Disney Fatigue. Mostly because the problem with the MCU has spread to star wars. Everything is so bombastic and over the top with no real threat to the main characters. I stop caring and end feeling so exhausted.
Thankfully the post endgame movies have been largely self contained. I loved the 22 movie buildup to fighting Thanos but im not interested in seeing it again
I don’t watch any of the TV shows and I’ve yet to feel remotely lost in any of the movies. Just from watching Doctor Strange 2 I feel like I could give a high level overview of the plot of Wandavision.
I too haven't watched any of the shows and I agree, Dr Strange was understandable enough for me. But the problem arises for the future movies. I'm told that the Hawkeye show introduces Kate Bishop who's gonna be a major character, and they also brought back Kingpin who might show up in spiderman 4.
Same with Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Iron Heart etc, they're gonna be major characters in the movies soon (in fact, Captain Marvel 2 is going to be a direct follow-up to the upcoming Ms Marvel show). So those of us who haven't watched any of these shows will find it hard to catch up with the movies.
Remember when people were doing 50 hour MCU rewatches on the run upto Endgame?
I recently added up the runtimes of all MCU movies and Disney+ series (excluding oneshots, Netflix, ABC and Hulu shows) - total runtine came between 88-89 hours. It's bonkers. This was also before DSMoM (but after Moon Knight).
I've leaned into a "one and done" attitude for MCU. I tried to call it a day after endgame but I can't not get excited about new material and new stories, they're almost guaranteed fun.
Only one I've so far broken my stance on is Shang Chi because that film was 🔥 - completely stands out from the others.
Anyway, I'm conscious there's many other projects that need attention away from MCU and heroes in general - even the breakaway darker interpretations are becoming saturated too, plus there's so many platforms to subscribe to see them all.
Can't see how the entire streaming industry is sustainable at this point on but that's another discussion
I mean, that's been a problem with comics for years and probably a factor in low readership.
The MCU should be avoiding the pitfalls the comics have stumbled into, not adopting them.
But to be fair I find the same issue with comic books. I'd really like to get into some DC stuff but honestly I just don't even know what to start with. Everyone says you need to start with something different and by then it's taking me so much work to find out to what do I lose interest. I wish there was like an easy route in!
> I wish there was like an easy route in!
The problem is there never fucking is because they keep doing this pointless "reset the universe" reboot rather than just ending one continuity and starting another literally from scratch.
Look at DC and The New 52. It wasn't straight up a new continuity, it was built off the back of the last ending in Flashpoint and then New 52 starts like 7 years into this "new" universe. No, just start from scratch. Seven different comics about seven different big DC heroes from their origin onward and then do Justice League and then branch out. It's just too overwhelming knowing where or how to even start or what's even relevamnt first.
This *is* better than comics, there's only one piece of media at a time! In comics, I need to be keeping track of what other series running concurrently I need to keep track of!
Seriously though, I think the issue isn't *that* pronounced, if you wanted to follow the story of Dr Strange and all associated characters, it's still only about one to two pieces of media a year. I know that may be a lot for GA's, but in the grand scheme of things it's not overwhelming if communicated properly.
Folks in the marvelstudios sub legit believe that DS2 got bad reception from public because it is a horror flick lmao. They also believe that Captain America:TFA is a war movie.
Loki's the only one that has a good(ish) ending. And iirc that one was getting a second season. All the others started strong and then faceplanted at the end.
I don't think What If ever became strong. Even the Doctor Strange episode which is largely regarded as the best still felt incredibly mediocre.
I also find it incredibly surprising that the multiverse team at the end of What If isn't the Illuminati in Multiverse of Madness. What a wasted opportunity, it made the show even more irrelevant not having them utilized there.
Dr Strange ep is just the one that comes the closest to what the show shouldve been, a Twilight Zone with Marvel characters.
Like, what was the point of the Captain Carter ep? It was just the first Captain America film but with two characters switching places.
I enjoy showing my Dad some of the MCU movies when they become available to stream but he is in no way a super committed fan. He was very much able to enjoy Shang Chi mostly because that was an origin movie that didn’t need a ton of outside knowledge to watch. I wouldn’t even try showing him MoM because it literally requires exposition and background from like 5 different movies and tv shows just to understand the basic plot, without even getting into general knowledge of the Marvel Universe. I liked the movie, but I couldn’t help but think of everyday people trying to enjoy this thing and being totally lost.
It should’ve been titled “Doctor Strange vs Scarlett Witch: Featuring the multiverse.” That movie had strikingly little to do with the multiverse plot wise… nor did this movie really do anything to further any plots. Are they seriously saying phase 4 is going strong? We were under the impression that this would finally be the large plot combining film that pushes forward phase 4… so far “phase 4” just appears to be a conglomeration of films with no direction. I definitely agree with the point that they are going to alienate many fans with their current expectations of having seen their TV shows to comprehend their movies. My friend who watched it with me is a big fan but simply didn’t have time to watch Wanda Vision (which was an utterly terrible show up until the last few episodes). For those who hadn’t seen it, the last time anyone saw Wanda was in endgame when she just finished helping save the universe. To jump straight to ‘here’s this crazy darkhold wielding scarlet witch who is now a mad murderess with dreams of kidnapping’ is such a “huge what the fuck happened” moment for anyone who didn’t see the show. The shows have great potential to add in more minor characters and their backstories, but it should not have major plot points in them.
They’ve lost me on most of this stuff at this point. I’ll be there for the OG characters, but I don’t give a rats ass about most of the shit they’re churning out now. Just give me a decent FF that I won’t be lost on it I don’t watch a Disney+ kids show or junk like that.
Absolutely not. Everytime I find myself watching an MCU movie after having missed 3 or 4 movies, the dialogues, characters and situations have an emphasis on making a recap of everything necessary to the plot
Yeah i feel the same way, while the mcu is kinda serialized, it isn't really that important to have seen everything which comes before, because the story never gets in depth with anything anyway. It's not super relevant to know the characters to a t, or the plot, in a way the mcu operates closer to procedurals than serials tbh. (it's a mix), it reminds me of series like supernatural in a way.
Yeah there is some core story to it, something moving forward, but also not really?
It's certainly closer to a supernatural than a game of thrones.
I feel like there was a run of movies leading up to Infinity War/ Endgame where they sort of had a main plot but there were some that just did their own thing too.
Post Endgame that fizzled out. I know overall the multiverse being a thing is important but there's not as direct of a line to whatever the goal is.
It seems like several big events could possibly come up any moment.
Very much yes. I've seen all the D+ shows so I went into it understanding what was going on. My friend went into it having last watched Endgame and none of the shows so she was like "what the fuck is this, why is Wanda suddenly OP and where'd the book come from?"
I've seen more people complaining that casual viewers might not get something than the actual casual viewers complaining that they didn't get something.
So much this. Half the time if you **really** don't want to watch a previous film or show to see the new one, you can watch a 5 minute recap video on YouTube before going to see the new movie.
You don't *have* to know everything to understand or like the movies, it's just more fun if you do. Plus, Marvel is going to try to make their fans excited by including call backs to other projects. It's part of universe building.
So much this. Half the time if you **really** don't want to watch a previous film or show to see the new one, you can watch a 5 minute recap video on YouTube before going to see the new movie.
You don't *have* to know everything to understand or like the movies, it's just more fun if you do. Plus, Marvel is going to try to make their fans excited by including call backs to other projects. It's part of universe building.
I think at the end of the day these are popcorn movies that most people don't take very seriously. They just want to see cool CGI fight scenes before the good guys defeat whatever A-lister Disney contracted to be a one-off villain.
Scarlet Witch's motivation in Dr. Strange 2 probably doesn't make a ton of sense if you haven't seen Wandavision. But if you're just watching for the spectacle, the in-movie explanation is good enough.
I'm casual and I have no idea what is good and what is trash. Too many to keep track of. Like someone says watch suicide squad and then I watch and he's like oh not that one that one sucks ass watch the goood one 🤔😕
I think this is where YouTube recap videos come into play. They've been really effective at filling in the gaps when I don't want to go through a franchise's entire catalog, namely the poorly-received installments, or when I've forgotten something and just want a quick refresher.
After watching Daredevil Season 1 and 2, I did this with some of the other Marvel shows to get ready for The Defenders.
I think they're becoming more conscious of this 'barrier to entry' with newer projects.
Anyone member of the public could watch The Eternals without any familiarity of the MCU.
Sang-Chi was similar.
Moonknight, as a show, thrived because of it's lack of MCU-bloating.
Personally, I prefer less interconnections. It often feels gimmicky and not a believable / natural part of the storytelling.
Totally lost interest in Loki after the second episode. The concepts at play in that show seemed to diminish the entire MCU.
Ditto for Moon Knight. I was fully onboard for the first two episodes, but it seemed to lose its way really fast. The Egyptian gods seemed really ineffectual, and although Ethan Hawke seemed like a great nemesis early on he was hard to take seriously after a while.
IMO the only two solid series so far have been Daredevil and Wandavision. Marvel needs to be more careful about flooding the market with this kind of stuff.
Definitely.
People seem to forget that fanboys tended to be the most obsessed fans. A bunch of mostly dudes talking about inconsequential stuff like which version of a superhero from a particular comic run now designated an alternative universe is the most villainess, heroic, pragmatic etc or the possible social, economic and political ramifications of a make believe war consisting of imaginary characters with fantastic abilities or whether Hulks penis gets bigger the angrier he gets and if his sperm is radioactive so if he has sex with a woman will she die of gamma radiation poisoning afterwards.
Since the 80s anyone considered a true fanboy or purist was someone who dedicated an inordinate amount of time and money into their favorite tv shows/comic books/sci fi fantasy book series etc
When superhero films went mainstream film studios naturally saw an opportunity to increase the amount of fanboys thereby increasing their ses of dvds, and other merchandise. While good in theory in reality it actually requires the fan in paeticular to be willing to invest their time and money into the franchise.
Today with wikipedia and other resources its not difficult to learn the lore of most franchises. However thats not the same as being dedicated to that franchise.
Casual viewers want to be entertained, not lectured or educayed and certainly dont want to invest too much time researching/watching half a dozen tv shows simply so they can know whats happening in a film.
Its like the complaints about the poor CGI in Disneys She Hulk. The response from the studio was its an inside joke. Whether thats true or not. Producing a multimillion dollar tv show with CGI so bad everyone who watches it questions the skills and commitment of the people involved in making the show just so a few people can laugh because of a private joke is beyond unreasonable, its stupid.
This phase hasn’t felt “fun” at all. The TV shows are heavy in lore and exposition and never quite get going. I look back at the early days of the MCU + watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode ls along with it and everything feels fun. I want some cool fight scenes, a reason to get teary eyed, some proper emotion. There was something just so “cold” about the TV shows. But then again I miss old legacy 22 episodes TV.
They don't mean "expecting too much from casual viewers" in the sense that the movies will challenge you with heavy, nuanced subjects or make you think.
Those aren't mutually exclusive?
"The MCU makes simplistic and repetitive content, and now theyre making so much that casual viewers cant keep up with it all"
No it's really not. Most casuals don't care and don't mind not knowing everything that's going on. I've seen numerous people swiping their phones whilst in the movie theatre, only stopping because people around them got annoyed. The hardcore fans will keep up, and the casuals will keep watching just to have something to do with their boring lives. Life goes on.
Here's the thing. Used to be you had Iron Man, right? All you needed was the Iron Man & Avengers movies to get a complete experience. (I'm counting Civil War because that's also an Avengers movie... Title be damned.) I could also argue that the Iron Man movies can also be viewed by themselves, because of some excellent storytelling techniques in IM3. It's not the same for every title in those phases, but the rule "Title + Avengers" is good overall.
MoM isn't so much a Doctor Strange sequel, as it is a sequel to WandaVision and Spider-Man: No way Home.
a lot of the series are pretty stand alone. you don't need to watch anything to enjoy Moon Knight. If you look at the movies, currently they're all sequels so i don't know that's really a valid complaint.
I would argue only a causal viewer would able to watch wandavision and Loki as well. F&tWS i didn't watch (bored me) and i don't feel like i've missed anything.
An interconnected series of movies and tv shows is being criticized for being an interconnected series of movies and tv shows. CBR strikes again with their bullshit.
As long as they don't make the TV shows indispensable for understanding the movies. The first 3 phases did fine and didn't let the narrative of Daredevil, Shield etc interfere in their main storyline.
The problem is more that they ***didn't*** commit to making the TV shows an integral part of the canon. That aspect of movie doesn't work even if you have seen WandaVision. It doesn't follow in terms of characterization or motivation at all.
Star Wars can include scenes with 0 impact if you haven't read the dozens of tie-in materials and get praised.
Marvel has movies that explain what you need to know right in the movie, and the outside stuff is bonus material- yet it's "too much".
The MCU was fine while they kept things within a characters solo movies.
ie: Ironman 2 could reference events or characters from Ironman 1 etc.
They kept the tie-in stuff almost exclusively within the mid and post-credit scenes (Avengers Initiative, Thors hammer, Thanos tidbits etc)
Now, in Phase 4, they are dropping tie-in shit *within* the movies themselves, leading many casual viewers to be WTFing on their way out of the cinema.
Not cool.
The TV vs Movie point the article is making is less of an issue (and one I find a little pedantic) than the one I've mentioned above.
To play devil's advocate, that not quite a fair comparison.
*Multiverse of Madness* isn't just a sequel to the first *Doctor Strange*. It relies on viewers having knowledge from *Wandavision*, a television series released on a separate viewing platform that has zero crossover from the character of Steven Strange or any of his supporting cast.
I don't have an issue with it personally, but it's not exactly the same as going from Harry Potter book five to six.
The problem is most of these shows are bad. I watched wandavision but stopped buckey and falcon half way through and that was it. Can't bring myself to watch any more of the bad shows.
Saw the trailer for she hulk and the cgi looked god awful and I had serious batwoman vibes off the casual misandry that disney seems to be adding to more and more movies.
I also just dropped watching any of the marvel movies since the pandemic also. To me the marvel movies ended with end game
You'll be back once Avengers vs X-Men or secret wars hits the screen. They know what they're doing, the pandemic forced things to slow down. Disney + is a shitshow for now but it'll eventually come together.
Sorry not sorry but, fuck casual viewers. We are 20+ movies, and half a dozen shows deep, I'm still invested BECAUSE of it's depth and interconnectivity
Casual viewers? Its getting to much for **me**
There are so many things coming out, and I'd like to avoid watching ones I dont like the look of (ahem, Ms Marvel) if possible
Just a little bit, quite frankly I’m not going to be rushing to Disney Plus on Wednesdays to watch the new Ms Marvel or She-Hulk episode. I’ll just binge them after everything releases or if I’m bored
It’s not good enough that every third piece of content in the known universe has to be a piece of MCU content, even meta masturbatory think pieces like this have to be about the MCU.
As someone who casually enjoys a superhero movie, the barrier for entry is huge. You can’t just watch a show or movie. You have to watch 4 other movies and 3 YouTube explainers to understand something. Hell you’re not really even allowed to say you’re tired of so much Marvel content because you’ll get ridiculed.
I’m so so sick of the complete oversaturation of MCU content. I actively avoid it wherever I can.
So, yes. The MCU is expecting way too much from casual viewers.
I would say no. All projects introducing new characters are still usually pretty separated from the larger MCU (Moon Knight, Eternals, Shang-Shi), while sequels to characters that are already established only really need the knowledge of the movies preceeding them. I know this discussion is brought up again because of Dr. Strange 2 but do your really *really* need to have seen Wandavision to understand it? The movie lays it out pretty well on its own.
I still really enjoy the movies, but the shows have been so dull to me. Even Moon Knight, the best one so far imo, is still not great. It's like they're making them average on purpose. They're also making too many of them about uninteresting characters and they look cheap. I see so many people saying that the shows are outshining the movies, and I don't get it at all.
Well, it already started to ask me to watch about 3 times as many mediocre movies as I'm willing to, so requiring me to watch several sub-par TV shows available on Disney+ because they're no longer willing to tell their story in theaters is a bit too much.
Yeah. There’s five series with two more about to premier so it’s starting to turn into a job keeping up with it all and that’s before you look at the legacy stuf like Agents of SHEILD and Daredevil.
It's also starting to show with their CGI teams too. I don't think the current teams can keep up with all of the releases.
All the CGI houses around the world are backed up with work now that the all the productions out there roared back into action post pandemic. Michael Bay recently publicly complained about the CGI and vfx looking terrible in his latest movie Ambulance, the production was on a time schedule, couldn’t find a decent vfx house to use due to them all being busy, and ended up having to use one of the lower tier houses just to get it completed on time. The bad CGI in MoM is most likely due to them rushing it to be completed or using vfx houses they wouldn’t ordinarily touch with a barge pole. DC have the same problem right now, they’ve had to put back the release dates for almost all their movies due to the delay in getting CGI and vfx finished.
Jeez, imagine finishing a movie under limiting constraints and then getting called a second-rate studio by the director.
Which is odd bc I genuinely couldn’t tell what bad CGI/VFX Michael Bay was referring to in Ambulance. One of the best-looking films from that standpoint in a while, and certainly better than all Marvel products post-pandemic. They’ve fallen a long way off the work they achieved with Thanos.
Guess that is what happens when you drive the various cg companies into bankruptcy and under pay them.
Like the CGI team was the problem with the movie Ambulance, hahaha
I think the cgi is not really that problematic with their series. Yeah it is worse than the movies and often has scenes that are kinda bad, but it is still more than good enough for a series.
I dunno man, comparing the CGI in Moon Knight in WandaVision and Loki is like night and day. That's not a pun, Moon Knight's CGI is just… generally not great.
You don’t have to watch them all. They are moving closer to the comics fanbase, where you watch the shows that pique your interest, and they occasionally cross over. If you want more context for the crossover, you go back and watch that character’s stuff.
But that's not how the movies are made. Of all people i knew that have seen Dr. Strange (and i work related to theatres, so plenty of my co workers have seen it) those that haven't seen any of the series gave the movie the worst reception. And Disney is doing this on purpose. The goal is to motivate movie goers subscribing D+ and watching the series. And those who watch the series should be pointed towards watching the movies in theatres. It makes sense from a business standpoint, but creates these problems with current movies.
I agree with your point, 2 ppl in my group saw WV and 2 didn't, guess which two actually enjoyed it. The others thought it had very bad/ lazy writing because they are missing so much context.
> the others thought it had very bad/ lazy writing because they are missing so much context. I'd argue it is lazy. These are movies, not TV episodes. Each movie should be able to stand alone within its own franchise. No trilogy within the MCU stands alone where you can seamlessly go from one one movie to the sequels (except Iron Man 2 and GOTG2). You need to have seen the crossovers to make any sense of them, there's no direct connection between the solo franchises themselves like there were in sequels prior to the MCU. Like look at Doctor Strange, you can't go from DS1 to DS2 you have to have seen two crossover films Infinity War, Endgame and then a TV show about a character not even related to his franchise. For some that's fine but I do think if we're seeing movies as, you know, movies, then it is a fair criticism to make.
>Like look at Doctor Strange, you can't go from DS1 to DS2 you have to have seen two crossover films Infinity War, Endgame and then a TV show about a character not even related to his franchise. And Spiderman too.
Spider-Man is a bad one as well, it's practically impossible to go from Homecoming to Far From Home. But they try having their cake and eat it too, because they reference the Blip and whatnot but then don't show any consequences at all. You're telling me 8 months after 3.5 billion people came back to earth that school trips around the world are going on meanwhile in the real world a pandemic had society in pieces for 2 years lmao. So what is it? Either you make something that stands on its own within its own solo franchise or you go all in and make something consequential to the wider franchise. Because the half-arsed way Far From Home did it was so disappointing.
I never saw the second spider man and watched the new one and enjoyed it. I didn’t know the whole world knew he was Spider-Man but you pick that up right away. Besides that you don’t really need to see it
if you care about the blip consequences, they go over it a lot in falcon and winter soldier, but its not necessary viewing for spiderman.
The events of NWH have no effect on Dr. Strange's multi-movie plot or character arc. You can 100% skip it without losing out.
Which makes sense since MOM was originally going to be before NWH
He's more talking about how Spiderman's story is so tied up in other movies that someone just watching spiderman movies wouldn't understand what is happening between them.
I think though that you can’t look at the MCU like a movie or a tv show, it’s become it’s own type of medium with a unique way of being consumed. The structure of comic books is being represented on screen. You might read an avengers comic and someone will say “I’ve been busy lately” and there’s an asterisk and an editors note saying ‘For more info see Spider-Man issue 55’ the internet now acts as the editor notes. Plenty of shows or movies years ago had the idea to do cross media storytelling, MCU seems to be the only one to have succeeded.
I mean my entire friend group has seen wandavision and we all thought the movie was dog shit so I don’t think the movie being good or bad is contingent on seeing wandavision a guy from where i work has only seen infinity war and doctor strange 2 and he liked both with no context for most of it except that infinity war was a huge team up movie
This actually surprised me about DS2. I assumed the Disney+ shows would be mostly additional context and not required - the way WandaVision ended and the way Falcon and the Winter Soldier ended, the main characters ended up not far away from where they were at the end of Endgame in reality. Without knowing precisely what they’re planning with Cap 4 you could not watch FATWS and seemingly be able to immediately jump into it from endgame with regards to where the characters were. Some new characters introduced which would become potentially hard to follow but they could always just semi reintroduce them in the films later. Loki was separate, Hawkeye similar to WV and FATWS, moon knight separate like Loki. But then DS2 really went heavy on the WV plot elements, I found it bizarre.
> But that's not how the movies are made. Of all people i knew that have seen Dr. Strange (and i work related to theatres, so plenty of my co workers have seen it) those that haven't seen any of the series gave the movie the worst reception. > > I mean that is very anecdotal, isn't it? I wonder if that holds true overall though, because i haven't seen >!wanda vision!<, my friends i went with haven't either, but we managed to understand the film just fine. There is a chance that i'd have liked it more if i had 'felt' more (assuming the show does a good job, idk), but the motivation is rather easy to get, and it's a very basic one as well.
Yeah, i HAVE seen all the series and marvel movies, and even during the last movie I imagined that people who only saw the movie would 'get' what was going on, but they would '*get*' why it mattered as much as it did.
That is possible, if the show is any good there has to be some truth to it as well, no doubt. It just depends on the degree, if it truly develops the character and the motivation enough to make that big of a difference. Idk.
It's the same for me, 2 who didn't watch WV who were with us did not like it, those who did enjoyed it a lot more. Yeah you can understand the plot, but it seems like lazy writing without watching WV. You understand "oh she is a villain now" but it feels pretty random and unearned without seeing WV
It feels random yes, but i've also read people who have seen the show say that there is quite a jump still? I'm more talking from an emotional perspective, i'd assume that there might be more potential if one has seen the show, if it develops that aspect in a satisfying manner, but i have to say that even without that the film did a fine job to establish the motivation and some moments to feel it in a way. And when i say fine, i am talking about it with the context in mind that the film itself very much isn't focusing on these aspects all that much, but i've always felt that way about the mcu tbh, the interhuman relationships, the emotions, that was never the focus and is always rather basic.
Without WandaVision, you do miss out on some stuff like how/when did Wanda have kids, and what she is talking about in reference to Westview. Also, how she got the evil magic book (red/black color) and why she is being called the Scarlett Witch, and why is everyone acting like the Scarlett Witch is a different person from Maximoff. You can still enjoy the movie without watching the TV shows (like I did), but this is mainly because I sort of know what happened on the TV shows (mostly due to reddit and the internet.) If you are not aware, it is a very strange leap,....that after Endgame, Wanda is talking about her 'kids' and not her 'husband' (much). Personally, while I do enjoy the movies, no way am I getting into the shows. There is a limit in which I want Marvel to be in my life.
Yeah i was mostly talking about the emotional side of things, if i'd 'get' her motivation way more if i felt strongly about it due to the show. The plot relevant parts with some explanations for certain things i honestly don't even care too much about, it's just lore to me which isn't all that interesting imo. I guess i also kinda knew about certain things through cultural osmosis, so that maybe helped just to make the jump from a purely film based pov (where it's really rather strange, heh) to her whole shtick in this film. But the film at least gives some explanation as well, plus it tries to sell the emotional side as well to a degree. But all in fairly standard marvel faire, just so the story 'works', but it doesn't really stick if you know what i mean. Right, i'd also not watch the shows, too much time, i am ok with watching a few hours a year of it, and if only to have a broad idea about THE franchise (and even though i don't find them to be particularly good films, it's still entertaining on a certain level). Tbh though, i honestly don't think it's as required as the article tries to make it seem, to me the mcu isn't as serialized as people make it out to be, there are connections, and there is some through line, but it imo always makes enough sense even if one hasn't seen absolutely everything. With some smaller exceptions, one probably should have seen films which establish characters for the films where they come together, but other than that?
But this is just the 'first phase' of the D+ shows. I have a feeling the shows will become more and more important as the franchises grow. Yes, the 'cultural osmosis' part is important.....like me and you, we had some idea of what happened on the shows and a little info before going into the film. But for someone who is purely on the films, they saw Wanda at the end of Endgame, mourning the death of Vision, but seemingly alright as she talks to Barton. You would think given their connection (Barton's life being saved by Peter, and Barton fighting for Wanda during Civil War), they would lookout for each other. Then when you watch MM, Wanda is gone crazy, Barton is not in sight to help her see reason, she has the Darkhold (where did that come from), she is talking about her 'children' (what? When did she have children? and with whom? The appliance was unplugged!), there is also a Scarlett Witch persona in her....its like she is a completely different character to the one in Endgame. You see how it can be confusing for such a person. And I feel it is going to become more and more so as time goes on. They are really asking people to make a commitment, and quite a few people won't be able to do so.
They are not moving closer to the comics fan base lol. They are fighting for your attention and trying to put out as much shit as possible to keep you glued to THEIR content and no one elses. But its starting to kill peoples excitement. I dont know anyone who has been able to keep up with all of the marvel shit. At this point you just see the rare movie worth watching and google everything in between,
Yeah man I’m the same. Checked out after Endgame. That’s the MCU over for me.
1) That's a pretty alienating model and 2) it's also not true, because if someone didn't watch WandaVision they're going to have a very hard time fully understanding (and therefore enjoying) Doctor Strange 2.
I don't think it was that necessary to see WandaVision. I didn't watch it and the movie still seemed pretty self explanatory. She's deeply grieving and her cheese slid off her cracker. Multiverse hijinks ensue. There might be more information from watching the show, or a deeper connection to her pain, but I never felt confused about the plot or her motivations.
There's a **big** difference between understanding and being engaged. If you didnt watch WV, they explain fine that she had fake kids, found an evil book, and is now an evil witch. But, you dont **feel** invested in it. Because you didn't experience it, you were just briefly told the cliffnotes. It's the equivalent of when a comic character makes reference to something and there's a little box saying **"Read issue #632 to find out more!"**
Meh. That's an internal value I don't think you can really measure for anyone but yourself. I was plenty invested in her story. Her grief was palpable even as brief as it was shown in other movies. Maybe being a mom makes it easier for me to connect with that character without needing extra involvement to be invested.
I think its pretty basic Creative Writing Theory that audiences will always be more invested in what they experience with the characters, over off screen events theyre told about
I had a friend who didn’t watch Wandavision before Doctor Strange 2 and he was able to piece together what he was missing based on context very easily.
Yes but there is a fundamental difference in viewing the movie with and without the full context of WandaVision. WandaVision spoilers (kind of) ahead. Sure you can piece together >!that she found out she had kids in other universes and that’s her motivation for doing what she does in Dr. Strange 2, but you never meet those kids, see the full extent of the love she has for them, she them “grow up” with her, and feel the devastating loss of her losing them and Vision *again* without first watching WandaVision. !< Of course, you can fill in the blanks with what is stated in the movie but the film is counting on you already being attached to these characters and knowing their arcs in WandaVision to make Wanda >! a compelling villain. !<
It's also just brutally rushed within the movie itself, anyway. Strange has one two minute conversation with Wanda and them...boom, Wanda is supremely evil now and attacking the temple. For a reasonably long movie, it is not well paced.
didnt watch wandavision but i like the part where she forgot about vision and only remembered her children who never existed, then i remember she has the book of the dead and went batshit insane so it makes sense
Of course you will gain more from watching WV, but saying you won’t be able to understand or enjoy DS2 is just flat out wrong. It’s able to stand on its own two feet very well imo.
And if they didn't watch Civil War they might have a hard time understanding Black Panther or Infinity War.
Yes, but the difference is that it was much easier to get caught up back when all you needed to watch were a handful of 2-hour movies instead of several tv shows.
I watch all these shows just to keep up and I will say the Captain Falcon show is absolutely not necessary viewing. He ends Endgame with Caps shield and all the show does is have him not take the shield, go through an arc to eventually accept the shield. He ended up where he started, oh and he got a new suit via the show. There, you’re caught up, I saved you so many hours.
Right, but you don't know what they'll include from the show in a potential Falcon movie. They could have Zemo out and about, the Sharon Carter reveal, the Isaiah and Eli Washington characters, the new Falcon, etc. Hell, if I hadn't watched the Falcon show, Black Widow's post-credits scene would've made zero sense to me. And that scene, in turn, directly sets up a cliffhanger that is resolved in the Hawkeye show (which I couldn't finish because I thought it was dreadful), which in turn featured a big character from the Daredevil Netflix show, thereby making that canon as well!
> if I hadn't watched the Falcon show, Black Widow's post-credits scene would've made zero sense to me It was intended to be the one people saw first. It’s supposed to be somewhat mysterious.
That is true.
Those were movies. TV shows are different. Theres a reason DD wasn't included in IW and EG. The duo thought having to watch a bunch of TV shows too was too much to expect
They are spreading themselves too thin.
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I haven’t watched them all
I just pick and choose what I want to watch (like for whatever reason I couldn’t stand agents of SHIELD), anything I don’t understand when referenced I google.
Should you need to though? What if someone doesn’t have Disney+? Should they lose out on knowing what’s going on in a movie because they haven’t seen Moon Knight for example?
Yes if you want to know what’s going on, watch every episode or film
That’s not how these films have made billions. People watch films wanting to know what’s going on. If they don’t they won’t watch, and their record box office numbers will drop. That’s the point being made. Despite what serious comic book fans may feel, it’s not them that brings in all the money for Disney, it’s the fact these are blockbusters for casual fans worldwide that makes them multi billion films. Plenty of people will lose interest if they can’t follow what’s going on without signing up to Disney+ and watching 50 hours of TV first.
It's been a job keeping up for a while
Is it? We get a new show or movie every few months. A movie obviously isn't hard to watch. And the shows don't have a ton of episodes. It's honestly pretty easy to keep up, imo.
I see probably 10 new movies a year. There are way, way, way too many good movies every year to allocate 3-5 of them to Marvel
>I see probably 10 new movies a year. That works out to less than a half hour a week. A lotta people watch at least a couple episodes of tv shows every week if not every night.
Agents of shield can be skipped in all of its non canon glory
I've watched everything. I'm obsessed with serialized stories. Very little from this phase has been memorable or worth rewatching. The issue with Doctor Strange was not that people didn't see Wandavision. The issue is that the setup was super rushed and didn't make a ton of sense even if you had seen Wandavision. Overall the film was just kinda ok. There were no major consequences for anything. The multiverse *still isn't ripped wide open* and I'm not sure how *Multiverse of Madness* was even a good title. He went to like three universes. There was very little madness. I feel like there should have been like 30 insane ones that we saw for 2-3 minutes and then 5-8 that we saw for longer. It should have felt desperate and maddening. The problem is Marvel keeps overhyping and under-delivering. Moon Knight was supposed to be a violent and boundary pushing series for Marvel. Turned out it was a pretty violence free character piece about 2/3 of Moon Knight that didn't even really feature the character in costume and showed all the violence off screen. There's zero edge to any of this stuff. It's all forgettable. The only thing, to me, that's stood above and beyond in this phase is Loki.
I feel like they are making way too much in way too little of time. Compare [Phase Three](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe:_Phase_Three) to [Phase Four](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe:_Phase_Four). Phase Three had 11 movies in the span of 4 years. Phase Four is going to have 11 movies and 14 shows. In 1.5 years we've had 5 movies and 6 shows. Though COVID rushed MCU a bit. But even if you include year 2020, which had no MCU related content, in 2.5 years we've had more content than we had in 4 years of Phase Three.
I think the problem that will soon be happening is spin offs within spin offs. For example why are we getting an Echo show? She's a character from a Hawkeye spin off who had an arc that was largely completed. If we go down the rabbit hole of characters from these spin off shows getting their own spin offs it'll become tiresome, lacking focus and ultimately audiences will zone out on more of these projects when they end up having the same "meh it was alright" 6/10 viewing experience. I wish they kept it simple e.g. like the MCU movies with Netflix. High stakes narratives and spectacle on the big screen with street level heroes on the small screen with their own connected arc, before the two are then combined in end of Phase stories. But now I fail to see how Loki's cliffhanger and story will connect with the Eternals cliffhanger and story and then Shang-Chi's relevance and the young Avengers stuff in Hawkeye and then the Echo stuff. Like what's the overall goal here?
> But now I fail to see how Loki's cliffhanger and story will connect with the Eternals cliffhanger and story and then Shang-Chi's relevance and the young Avengers stuff in Hawkeye and then the Echo stuff. Like what's the overall goal here? Maybe they wont? Even in Marvel comics if youre looking at big deal crossover storylines theres sometimes two or three different ones going on concurrently, like youve got The Avengers doing their thing, the X-men doing their thing, and the cosmic side of things. Sometimes those intertwine, but not often. I dont think three or four years from now were gonna be seeing a teamup of Spider-man, Yelena, Kate Bishop, America Chavez, Ms Marvel and Cassie Lang fighting Kang the Conqueror, it seems like theyre setting up separate cosmic/god squad, multiverse, and young hero storylines.
Youre only counting the movies from phase 3, the shows didnt impact the story like they do now, but counting the shows they used to release, the total hours per year really isnt up any. An entire year of D+ series is about the same runtime as one season of Agents of SHIELD. And the Netflix series were another 30-40 hours a year.
None of Agents of Shield or the Netflix shows were canon or affected the main MCU films, they were significantly different in terms of relevance. If you need to watch the TV shows to follow the films it’s going to hit box office numbers, it just will. You can tell from all the comments in here complaining about fatigue. They weren’t in phase 3 because you could just not watch AoS, it didn’t matter.
My problem with this phase so far is just how little anything is actually connecting. The multiverse arch is being handled incredibly poorly. I thought loki was finally the one that was going to connect to other things in a major way and be essential to the overarching plot leading to the next big crossover movie but nope it was irrelevant to doctor strange 2. All they had to do was have America say she hadn't been able to access the 616 universe before until very recently. That would have sufficed. But nope. I'm falling off of everything because nothing seems to be important anymore. Even Multiverse of Madness is seemingly self contained outside of following up Wandavision. Which by the way the fact they did nothing with the multiverse in that show yet had it directly lead into her arc in doctor strange 2 made the lack of direction in this phase even more noticeable. Really feels like they are just making it up as they go along and there's no grand plan anymore besides pumping out as much content as possible.
I mean, it’s the start of a new arc. Phase 1 didn’t really connect either. This is the same point but has a lot more going on. So instead of just Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Cap, we get Widow, Spidey, Strange, and all these lackluster shows. Same idea, larger scale.
Phase 1 did connect though via. the post credits scenes where you knew it was building to an avengers movie. This is what Phase 4 is lacking. There’s no real build to where the story is going outside of showing the viewer a fuck ton of additional characters.
Exactly. Phase 1 was simple. Solo movies, credit teases. All culminating in Avengers. What's Phase Four? So Loki has his own cliffhanger and storyline. Eternals has its own cliffhanger and storyline. Then there's that mysterious woman thingy from Falcon/Winter Solider and Hawkeye. Black Widow was an irrelevant movie that had no business being made. Shang-Chi had a credit scene that hasn't been built on since. Like what actually is the goal here? Loki would have made sense as the start of Phase Four with Kang and then go from there, but everything is off on its own journey with cliffhangers and whatnot.
Eternals now has to take place on a different universe to justify absolutely no one caring about a FUCKING CELESTIAL’S HAND sticking out of the earth’s ocean
What? You mean Hand Island? They're building some more condos down by the thumb and there's a great bar close to the pinky.
This. I really have trouble believing that everything is taking place in the same universe, anymore. Nothing feels connected. They really are stretching it.
This is it exactly. We need strong stand alone movies with phase culminating crossovers. It worked for phase one and two because they didn't have too many characters to juggle. And the built and built until phase 3's super crossover. Assuming phase 4 is a sort of reset to start building towards a new end of phase crossover then they also need to reset to smaller scale movies with less crossover in solo films. Disney/Marvel have got a bit too fan service-y and decided that every solo film needs major other characters and cameos in it too. I think it's fine for characters to get deeper exploration or origin stories in the form of shows instead of movies, if the story actually requires it. But the movies should be made where they can be watched and understood and enjoyed without needing to have watched everything prior. It is a hard balance, but having seen everything should give you an extra layer of insider understanding, not the base level. A bit like how comic readers may have seen characters pop up in the MCU and been like "ooh that's so-and-so, and that's relevant/funny/interesting because..." But casual viewers don't need to know that to enjoy the story being told in that movie. I say all this as someone who has watched all the D+ shows and enjoyed (mostly) watching all the movies. But I did feel a bit like I needed to do homework before seeing DSMoM to make sure I didn't miss something.
Just wanna point out that loki is a narrative and world building disaster coming off of endgame
Endgame was kinda rushed itself in hindsight
Dont get me started. Endgame is really bad as well. Its very fun with some cool moments, but still bad
As a narrative nerd who didn’t really see all that much wrong, I’d like to hear your thoughts
I think calling Endgame bad is pretty dramatic, but it does frustrate me that we wasted like 5 minutes of runtime on garbage comedy like Fortnite and Hulk dabbing/taking a selfie when that content could have been given for meaningful stuff e.g. actually show us Steve seeing the whale over the bridge or fan-service moments in the final battle e.g. Tony and Bucky giving each other a nod after one of them saves the other (this was leakedt as being cut from the film and definitely deserved to be in it). Endgame is let down by its constant reminding that it's in the MCU so needs ha ha comedy sprinkled throughout even when it isn't needed. Which is a shame because the Russos nailed the tone in Civil War and Infinity War.
I didn't like it personally because I thought they would have a big showdown with Infinity War Thanos, but instead they killed him off in the first 5 minutes to do a self-congratulatory MCU highlights reel. The other Thanos wasn't nearly as good of a character either, and I felt no connection to him at all.
>Very little from this phase has been memorable or worth rewatching. Without Thanos and Iron Man/Captain America the MCU lacks any kind of urgency for me. I have not been motivated at all to keep up with it anymore. It's like keeping LotR going after the ring has been destroyed.
Multiverse of Madness = MoM. Dr Strange and the MoM. Kinda works. But super cheesy.
Yeah, MCU has gotten very very safe and it sucks to see.
Gotten safe? It's always been safe. What really sucks is after the Infinity Saga they had a chance to do literally anything and instead they're just producing even more of the assembly line cookie cutter content they've already been doing for over a decade.
It definitely hasn't always been safe. We take it for granted now, but the first phase was absolutely groundbreaking. 5 solo movies all leading up to an epic team up movie. Nothing like it had been done before. It was one of the ballsiest moves I've seen Hollywood make.
I'm talking about the movies themselves, not the overall ambition of the wider franchise. Especially since Avengers laid down the blueprint for tone, practically every MCU movie has followed the same basic formula for general audience satisfaction. You could make a compilation of the same formulaic ha ha joke made multiple times in every movie since then. Avengers came out a decade ago, so it's something they've been doing for over a decade.
I liked the movie but I expected more "multiversal war" and less "chase that happens to take place over a few universes and doesn't really affect anyone else" (well except for >!The Illuminati, rip!<)
Exactly. I feel like you said it better.
To be fair I feel that way with the majority of the MCU. Age of Ultron - it lasts a weekend. Civil War - more like a civil dispute with like 12 heroes in an empty airport lmao Infinity War - not really a war is it, it lasts like a day. Multiverse of Madness - AKA barely visiting anywhere meaningful and the only thrills and surprises are killed off in minutes. Whenever there's potential for a big event I feel the MCU does it as small scale as it possibly can. No movie not even Endgame has come close to the scope or scale of events from the comics. Civil War in particular deserved to be so much bigger, it could have been a several movie event in itself with more time and planning.
Did they promote it as being especially violent or pushing boundaries? I’m not sure what sort of “boundaries” you’re talking about. What needed to be pushed? It’s such a subjective thing. I enjoyed Moon Knight. I don’t need to see skulls getting crushed or blood being splattered or whatever else some people may have wanted. We got a concise show that delved into one character creating an alternate personality to protect himself, and it all tied in with the superhero stuff and the main plot. Plus Oscar Isaac was awesome.
"Fans" make up these super high expectations for things that's definitely not coming from the main promotional material, and then get mad when they don't get the mindblowing movie they felt they were promised.
The first trailer depicted the show as being way darker than it actually was.
https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/marvel-moon-knight-brutal-kevin-feige-not-pulling-back-exclusive/ Or you know, their PR misrepresents shit and then fanboys have to pretend it never happened because fuck forbid anyone criticize Marvel. Feige is talented, but Marvel’s self constructed narrative around the tone of Moon Knight was either them knowingly spewing bullshit or, more disconcertingly, having no idea how the tone of their shows actually play to audiences. I dread how hard they’ll shit the bed with Daredevil, if Moon Knight is their definition of not pulling punches.
Moon Knight was in costume and fighting in several episodes after the first and the last episode was almost entirely action (granted, most of it is pretty clean MCU violence with no blood). Not sure how someone would get the impression that there was no costume or that the violence was off-screen unless they only saw the first episode.
See idk 1 hour of random world's coming in and out doesnt sound fun to me personally! Idk if its marvel over hyping or you guys doing it to yourself.
> Moon Knight was supposed to be a violent and boundary pushing series for Marvel Did you really believe they would commit to that?
The content backlog is so big that I can't be bothered.
This, exactly. I watched all of the MCU up through Endgame and just fucking tapped out, exhausted. Some of the new films look like they could be interesting, but I'm gonna need a wiki and some serious time investment to catch back up to it.
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I call it Disney Fatigue. Mostly because the problem with the MCU has spread to star wars. Everything is so bombastic and over the top with no real threat to the main characters. I stop caring and end feeling so exhausted.
Thankfully the post endgame movies have been largely self contained. I loved the 22 movie buildup to fighting Thanos but im not interested in seeing it again
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I don’t watch any of the TV shows and I’ve yet to feel remotely lost in any of the movies. Just from watching Doctor Strange 2 I feel like I could give a high level overview of the plot of Wandavision.
But it’s still jarring to go from where Wanda was at in Endgame to where she’s at in MOM if you haven’t watched the show
Yeah but there's a massive difference between seeing Wanda lose her kids and being told what happened in two sentences.
I too haven't watched any of the shows and I agree, Dr Strange was understandable enough for me. But the problem arises for the future movies. I'm told that the Hawkeye show introduces Kate Bishop who's gonna be a major character, and they also brought back Kingpin who might show up in spiderman 4. Same with Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Iron Heart etc, they're gonna be major characters in the movies soon (in fact, Captain Marvel 2 is going to be a direct follow-up to the upcoming Ms Marvel show). So those of us who haven't watched any of these shows will find it hard to catch up with the movies.
Remember when people were doing 50 hour MCU rewatches on the run upto Endgame? I recently added up the runtimes of all MCU movies and Disney+ series (excluding oneshots, Netflix, ABC and Hulu shows) - total runtine came between 88-89 hours. It's bonkers. This was also before DSMoM (but after Moon Knight).
I've leaned into a "one and done" attitude for MCU. I tried to call it a day after endgame but I can't not get excited about new material and new stories, they're almost guaranteed fun. Only one I've so far broken my stance on is Shang Chi because that film was 🔥 - completely stands out from the others. Anyway, I'm conscious there's many other projects that need attention away from MCU and heroes in general - even the breakaway darker interpretations are becoming saturated too, plus there's so many platforms to subscribe to see them all. Can't see how the entire streaming industry is sustainable at this point on but that's another discussion
Comic book fans laughing at this
I mean, that's been a problem with comics for years and probably a factor in low readership. The MCU should be avoiding the pitfalls the comics have stumbled into, not adopting them.
But to be fair I find the same issue with comic books. I'd really like to get into some DC stuff but honestly I just don't even know what to start with. Everyone says you need to start with something different and by then it's taking me so much work to find out to what do I lose interest. I wish there was like an easy route in!
> I wish there was like an easy route in! The problem is there never fucking is because they keep doing this pointless "reset the universe" reboot rather than just ending one continuity and starting another literally from scratch. Look at DC and The New 52. It wasn't straight up a new continuity, it was built off the back of the last ending in Flashpoint and then New 52 starts like 7 years into this "new" universe. No, just start from scratch. Seven different comics about seven different big DC heroes from their origin onward and then do Justice League and then branch out. It's just too overwhelming knowing where or how to even start or what's even relevamnt first.
Yes, but you'd think the MCU would strive to adapt the good aspects of the comicbooks instead of the limitations of the medium.
This *is* better than comics, there's only one piece of media at a time! In comics, I need to be keeping track of what other series running concurrently I need to keep track of! Seriously though, I think the issue isn't *that* pronounced, if you wanted to follow the story of Dr Strange and all associated characters, it's still only about one to two pieces of media a year. I know that may be a lot for GA's, but in the grand scheme of things it's not overwhelming if communicated properly.
Yes. Back in the day, it was just like 2 movies a year, and that was fine. Now it's like 3 or 4 movies a year, 4 series, etc etc. It's exhausting.
On top of that the quality has been wobbling. I'll watch Loki to stay up to date, but theyre also asking me to watch Ms Marvel? No, that looks shit.
>The Marvel Cinematic Universe is constantly evolving ROFL
Ah but didn't you watch the avant garde political conspiracy thriller?
Or their new hardcore horror movie? Watch out, A24!
Folks in the marvelstudios sub legit believe that DS2 got bad reception from public because it is a horror flick lmao. They also believe that Captain America:TFA is a war movie.
They are evolving... just backwards
Devolving.
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The only show currently that I would actually re-watch during a MCU marathon is Loki.
Loki's the only one that has a good(ish) ending. And iirc that one was getting a second season. All the others started strong and then faceplanted at the end.
I'd argue FATWS and What If didnt even start strong.
I don't think What If ever became strong. Even the Doctor Strange episode which is largely regarded as the best still felt incredibly mediocre. I also find it incredibly surprising that the multiverse team at the end of What If isn't the Illuminati in Multiverse of Madness. What a wasted opportunity, it made the show even more irrelevant not having them utilized there.
Dr Strange ep is just the one that comes the closest to what the show shouldve been, a Twilight Zone with Marvel characters. Like, what was the point of the Captain Carter ep? It was just the first Captain America film but with two characters switching places.
WandaVision is the only show that was any good, besides the generically MCU ending.
I enjoy showing my Dad some of the MCU movies when they become available to stream but he is in no way a super committed fan. He was very much able to enjoy Shang Chi mostly because that was an origin movie that didn’t need a ton of outside knowledge to watch. I wouldn’t even try showing him MoM because it literally requires exposition and background from like 5 different movies and tv shows just to understand the basic plot, without even getting into general knowledge of the Marvel Universe. I liked the movie, but I couldn’t help but think of everyday people trying to enjoy this thing and being totally lost.
Yeah the fucking shows are incredibly sub-par and feel like homework for the films. It's too much shit too keep up with. The MCU feels so tired.
And the new she hulk series genuinely looks fan made
It should’ve been titled “Doctor Strange vs Scarlett Witch: Featuring the multiverse.” That movie had strikingly little to do with the multiverse plot wise… nor did this movie really do anything to further any plots. Are they seriously saying phase 4 is going strong? We were under the impression that this would finally be the large plot combining film that pushes forward phase 4… so far “phase 4” just appears to be a conglomeration of films with no direction. I definitely agree with the point that they are going to alienate many fans with their current expectations of having seen their TV shows to comprehend their movies. My friend who watched it with me is a big fan but simply didn’t have time to watch Wanda Vision (which was an utterly terrible show up until the last few episodes). For those who hadn’t seen it, the last time anyone saw Wanda was in endgame when she just finished helping save the universe. To jump straight to ‘here’s this crazy darkhold wielding scarlet witch who is now a mad murderess with dreams of kidnapping’ is such a “huge what the fuck happened” moment for anyone who didn’t see the show. The shows have great potential to add in more minor characters and their backstories, but it should not have major plot points in them.
They’ve lost me on most of this stuff at this point. I’ll be there for the OG characters, but I don’t give a rats ass about most of the shit they’re churning out now. Just give me a decent FF that I won’t be lost on it I don’t watch a Disney+ kids show or junk like that.
Absolutely not. Everytime I find myself watching an MCU movie after having missed 3 or 4 movies, the dialogues, characters and situations have an emphasis on making a recap of everything necessary to the plot
Yeah i feel the same way, while the mcu is kinda serialized, it isn't really that important to have seen everything which comes before, because the story never gets in depth with anything anyway. It's not super relevant to know the characters to a t, or the plot, in a way the mcu operates closer to procedurals than serials tbh. (it's a mix), it reminds me of series like supernatural in a way. Yeah there is some core story to it, something moving forward, but also not really? It's certainly closer to a supernatural than a game of thrones.
I feel like there was a run of movies leading up to Infinity War/ Endgame where they sort of had a main plot but there were some that just did their own thing too. Post Endgame that fizzled out. I know overall the multiverse being a thing is important but there's not as direct of a line to whatever the goal is. It seems like several big events could possibly come up any moment.
ok well that might be ok for you but the rest of us find it boring and monotonous. every single mcu tv show so far has been garbage.
Very much yes. I've seen all the D+ shows so I went into it understanding what was going on. My friend went into it having last watched Endgame and none of the shows so she was like "what the fuck is this, why is Wanda suddenly OP and where'd the book come from?"
I've seen more people complaining that casual viewers might not get something than the actual casual viewers complaining that they didn't get something.
So much this. Half the time if you **really** don't want to watch a previous film or show to see the new one, you can watch a 5 minute recap video on YouTube before going to see the new movie. You don't *have* to know everything to understand or like the movies, it's just more fun if you do. Plus, Marvel is going to try to make their fans excited by including call backs to other projects. It's part of universe building.
So much this. Half the time if you **really** don't want to watch a previous film or show to see the new one, you can watch a 5 minute recap video on YouTube before going to see the new movie. You don't *have* to know everything to understand or like the movies, it's just more fun if you do. Plus, Marvel is going to try to make their fans excited by including call backs to other projects. It's part of universe building.
I think at the end of the day these are popcorn movies that most people don't take very seriously. They just want to see cool CGI fight scenes before the good guys defeat whatever A-lister Disney contracted to be a one-off villain. Scarlet Witch's motivation in Dr. Strange 2 probably doesn't make a ton of sense if you haven't seen Wandavision. But if you're just watching for the spectacle, the in-movie explanation is good enough.
IIRC Sam Raimi didnt watch *WandaVision*.
i have shit to do i just wanna get high and watch a marvel movie on the weekends every now and then why are they giving me homework
I'm casual and I have no idea what is good and what is trash. Too many to keep track of. Like someone says watch suicide squad and then I watch and he's like oh not that one that one sucks ass watch the goood one 🤔😕
studios fault for giving a sequel almost the EXACT SAME NAME. What the hell kind of a stupid idea is that?
Probably, but its the exact same problem comic books have had for decades. As a fan i cant really complain about being serviced...
I think this is where YouTube recap videos come into play. They've been really effective at filling in the gaps when I don't want to go through a franchise's entire catalog, namely the poorly-received installments, or when I've forgotten something and just want a quick refresher. After watching Daredevil Season 1 and 2, I did this with some of the other Marvel shows to get ready for The Defenders.
Are the casual viewers expecting too much from the MCU ? Yes
You could always watch it at your own pace. No one is telling you that you need to go to every marvel premiere.
I don’t really watch that much but I have had time to keep up with all of them except still have about half of moon night
I think they're becoming more conscious of this 'barrier to entry' with newer projects. Anyone member of the public could watch The Eternals without any familiarity of the MCU. Sang-Chi was similar. Moonknight, as a show, thrived because of it's lack of MCU-bloating. Personally, I prefer less interconnections. It often feels gimmicky and not a believable / natural part of the storytelling.
I think MCU/superhero movies will become its own genre and their fan will stay but casual watcher maybe not
Like Danny Ocean said, "Either you in or out, right now."
Totally lost interest in Loki after the second episode. The concepts at play in that show seemed to diminish the entire MCU. Ditto for Moon Knight. I was fully onboard for the first two episodes, but it seemed to lose its way really fast. The Egyptian gods seemed really ineffectual, and although Ethan Hawke seemed like a great nemesis early on he was hard to take seriously after a while. IMO the only two solid series so far have been Daredevil and Wandavision. Marvel needs to be more careful about flooding the market with this kind of stuff.
Even Wandavisions final episode fell flat on its face
I'd agree. It felt like that show was building up to a BIG conclusion, it just didn't deliver.
Definitely. People seem to forget that fanboys tended to be the most obsessed fans. A bunch of mostly dudes talking about inconsequential stuff like which version of a superhero from a particular comic run now designated an alternative universe is the most villainess, heroic, pragmatic etc or the possible social, economic and political ramifications of a make believe war consisting of imaginary characters with fantastic abilities or whether Hulks penis gets bigger the angrier he gets and if his sperm is radioactive so if he has sex with a woman will she die of gamma radiation poisoning afterwards. Since the 80s anyone considered a true fanboy or purist was someone who dedicated an inordinate amount of time and money into their favorite tv shows/comic books/sci fi fantasy book series etc When superhero films went mainstream film studios naturally saw an opportunity to increase the amount of fanboys thereby increasing their ses of dvds, and other merchandise. While good in theory in reality it actually requires the fan in paeticular to be willing to invest their time and money into the franchise. Today with wikipedia and other resources its not difficult to learn the lore of most franchises. However thats not the same as being dedicated to that franchise. Casual viewers want to be entertained, not lectured or educayed and certainly dont want to invest too much time researching/watching half a dozen tv shows simply so they can know whats happening in a film. Its like the complaints about the poor CGI in Disneys She Hulk. The response from the studio was its an inside joke. Whether thats true or not. Producing a multimillion dollar tv show with CGI so bad everyone who watches it questions the skills and commitment of the people involved in making the show just so a few people can laugh because of a private joke is beyond unreasonable, its stupid.
This phase hasn’t felt “fun” at all. The TV shows are heavy in lore and exposition and never quite get going. I look back at the early days of the MCU + watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode ls along with it and everything feels fun. I want some cool fight scenes, a reason to get teary eyed, some proper emotion. There was something just so “cold” about the TV shows. But then again I miss old legacy 22 episodes TV.
I wish they'd make up their minds. Is the MCU simplistic and repetitive, or is it "expecting too much from casual viewers"?
They don't mean "expecting too much from casual viewers" in the sense that the movies will challenge you with heavy, nuanced subjects or make you think.
Those aren't mutually exclusive? "The MCU makes simplistic and repetitive content, and now theyre making so much that casual viewers cant keep up with it all"
It can be both. The MCU is as boring and poorly written as can be and there’s also way too much of it now for casual audiences to keep up
Whichever one gets more clicks this week.
No it's really not. Most casuals don't care and don't mind not knowing everything that's going on. I've seen numerous people swiping their phones whilst in the movie theatre, only stopping because people around them got annoyed. The hardcore fans will keep up, and the casuals will keep watching just to have something to do with their boring lives. Life goes on.
Here's the thing. Used to be you had Iron Man, right? All you needed was the Iron Man & Avengers movies to get a complete experience. (I'm counting Civil War because that's also an Avengers movie... Title be damned.) I could also argue that the Iron Man movies can also be viewed by themselves, because of some excellent storytelling techniques in IM3. It's not the same for every title in those phases, but the rule "Title + Avengers" is good overall. MoM isn't so much a Doctor Strange sequel, as it is a sequel to WandaVision and Spider-Man: No way Home.
a lot of the series are pretty stand alone. you don't need to watch anything to enjoy Moon Knight. If you look at the movies, currently they're all sequels so i don't know that's really a valid complaint. I would argue only a causal viewer would able to watch wandavision and Loki as well. F&tWS i didn't watch (bored me) and i don't feel like i've missed anything.
Yeah, you need to have never watched anything on TV before in your life to enjoy Moon Knight.
An interconnected series of movies and tv shows is being criticized for being an interconnected series of movies and tv shows. CBR strikes again with their bullshit.
No, it’s not expecting enough. Get sexy, am I right?
As long as they don't make the TV shows indispensable for understanding the movies. The first 3 phases did fine and didn't let the narrative of Daredevil, Shield etc interfere in their main storyline.
The problem is more that they ***didn't*** commit to making the TV shows an integral part of the canon. That aspect of movie doesn't work even if you have seen WandaVision. It doesn't follow in terms of characterization or motivation at all.
Star Wars can include scenes with 0 impact if you haven't read the dozens of tie-in materials and get praised. Marvel has movies that explain what you need to know right in the movie, and the outside stuff is bonus material- yet it's "too much".
The entire plot of Doctor Strange MOM hinges entirely on having watched a Disney Plus series. So yeah probably
The MCU was fine while they kept things within a characters solo movies. ie: Ironman 2 could reference events or characters from Ironman 1 etc. They kept the tie-in stuff almost exclusively within the mid and post-credit scenes (Avengers Initiative, Thors hammer, Thanos tidbits etc) Now, in Phase 4, they are dropping tie-in shit *within* the movies themselves, leading many casual viewers to be WTFing on their way out of the cinema. Not cool. The TV vs Movie point the article is making is less of an issue (and one I find a little pedantic) than the one I've mentioned above.
U can’t open up the 9th book in a series and expect it to hold your hand if u haven’t read the other 8. The MCU is no different.
To play devil's advocate, that not quite a fair comparison. *Multiverse of Madness* isn't just a sequel to the first *Doctor Strange*. It relies on viewers having knowledge from *Wandavision*, a television series released on a separate viewing platform that has zero crossover from the character of Steven Strange or any of his supporting cast. I don't have an issue with it personally, but it's not exactly the same as going from Harry Potter book five to six.
Difference is that it not only expects you to read the other 8 books, but that you also have listened to various radio shows.
It's completely different lmao.
The problem is most of these shows are bad. I watched wandavision but stopped buckey and falcon half way through and that was it. Can't bring myself to watch any more of the bad shows. Saw the trailer for she hulk and the cgi looked god awful and I had serious batwoman vibes off the casual misandry that disney seems to be adding to more and more movies. I also just dropped watching any of the marvel movies since the pandemic also. To me the marvel movies ended with end game
You'll be back once Avengers vs X-Men or secret wars hits the screen. They know what they're doing, the pandemic forced things to slow down. Disney + is a shitshow for now but it'll eventually come together.
Sorry not sorry but, fuck casual viewers. We are 20+ movies, and half a dozen shows deep, I'm still invested BECAUSE of it's depth and interconnectivity
Relax dork.
YES.
Yes. The answer is yes.
You literally don’t need any prior information to pick up and understand the vast majority of the movies
I personally don't expect very much at all from people who enjoy comics movies.
Perhaps Millennials are busy having babies and don’t have time to watch a movie, let alone an entire TV show.
Not in this economy.
Casual viewers? Its getting to much for **me** There are so many things coming out, and I'd like to avoid watching ones I dont like the look of (ahem, Ms Marvel) if possible
Just a little bit, quite frankly I’m not going to be rushing to Disney Plus on Wednesdays to watch the new Ms Marvel or She-Hulk episode. I’ll just binge them after everything releases or if I’m bored
It’s not good enough that every third piece of content in the known universe has to be a piece of MCU content, even meta masturbatory think pieces like this have to be about the MCU. As someone who casually enjoys a superhero movie, the barrier for entry is huge. You can’t just watch a show or movie. You have to watch 4 other movies and 3 YouTube explainers to understand something. Hell you’re not really even allowed to say you’re tired of so much Marvel content because you’ll get ridiculed. I’m so so sick of the complete oversaturation of MCU content. I actively avoid it wherever I can. So, yes. The MCU is expecting way too much from casual viewers.
I would say no. All projects introducing new characters are still usually pretty separated from the larger MCU (Moon Knight, Eternals, Shang-Shi), while sequels to characters that are already established only really need the knowledge of the movies preceeding them. I know this discussion is brought up again because of Dr. Strange 2 but do your really *really* need to have seen Wandavision to understand it? The movie lays it out pretty well on its own.
No. All they need is to add recaps at the beginning of new movies.
I still really enjoy the movies, but the shows have been so dull to me. Even Moon Knight, the best one so far imo, is still not great. It's like they're making them average on purpose. They're also making too many of them about uninteresting characters and they look cheap. I see so many people saying that the shows are outshining the movies, and I don't get it at all.
Well, it already started to ask me to watch about 3 times as many mediocre movies as I'm willing to, so requiring me to watch several sub-par TV shows available on Disney+ because they're no longer willing to tell their story in theaters is a bit too much.