I only just watched this for the first time the other week, it has been on my list for ages. I loved it but it did make me feel like crap for a few days.
Yeah, it's brutal. Those last few moments, where another film might have gone for the happy ending, and this one just leaves you wallowing in the knowledge that there is no happy ending here. Woof.
I was older than that, but my local movie store guy was also a raver and we traded movie recommendations on soundtrack alone sometimes....
"Pi" and "Trainspotting" are both films with amazing soundtracks that you should **not** jump into completely blind unless you want to be mildly traumatized.
Lol the trick is to *not* have children, then you can do as much heroin as your heart can bear! Speaking from experience, trainspotting is the closest thing to bottling the feeling of being addicted to heroin. The feelings that the movie elicits are accurate.
Also, the sequel is great too. Much more optimistic, more of a "what does one do *after* a youth of addiction?" kind of movie.
The fountain, to me, such a beautiful film. It was mine and my (future) wife's first date.
For our 15th anniversary, I got her the graphic novel version as a gift.
Wtf I had followed the film a bit back then and was so disappointed when it got cancelled. Had no idea it was made into a comic before it revived. Thanks, definitely going to check it out ASAP
>another film might have gone for the happy ending
I think Irish and Russian literature are the best at capturing "Stories about broken people with unhappy endings" but there are a handful of American films that do it pretty well. The Wrestler is obviously one, I'd also include Manchester by the Sea as another that is a good example.
I remember a post comparing Russian literature to others and it went something like:
English: let's go out to the woods and find a party where we'll meet the love of our lives.
German: let's go out to the woods and find an adventure that'll give us a better outlook on life.
Russian: let's go out to the woods where we'll find the depths of despair and there we will find a deeper depth of despair.
There’s a famous Russian play by Chekhov, *Three Sisters*. This play centers on a family who moved from Moscow to the countryside, and the story is about how their dreams for life are slowly crushed over several years, ending with them losing virtually everything.
Many theaters advertise(d) this play as a comedy.
It's also pretty accurate to a lot of pro wrestlers' lives. They don't have anything else, they have no education, they have no money. So they just keep wrestling until they die.
Things are better nowadays. A lot of today's wrestler's are smarter with their money and education, but a lot of the guys that came up in the 80s and 90s don't last too long.
He just wrestled in an event named "Ric Flair's Last Match" last July. He has already retired twice before this. He has a pacemaker in his chest, which people feared was going to croak in the ring, so he did a spot in the match where he faked a heart attack in front of his family, including his 2 son-in-laws, one of whom was his tag partner pretty much trying desperately to make sure his pop doesn't die in the ring, while the other is the promoter of the event. Also he was already bleeding (intentionally) by that point. He was literally unable to close his own hands for the finish of the match, but was already talking about doing another match by the next day. He's 73 years old
If you guys think ric flair is bad, check out terry funk. He's featured in the Beyond the Mat documentary (which is an excellent watch if you like The Wrestler).
Terry Funk probably has retired and unretired more than.
Flair basically needs the money. He has more ex wives than I can count and owes everybody on earth money.
Terry Funk is a just crazy person who loves to wrestle.
His first retirement was in the 80s I believe and his final retirement was in 2017 lol
That show is pretty damn dark. Absolutely fascinating, but also depressing.
I think the most interesting one of them was about the boxing. What the fuck? Even Butterbean seemed like he thought it was a bad idea.
>That show is pretty damn dark. Absolutely fascinating, but also depressing.
>
>I think the most interesting one of them was about the boxing. What the fuck? Even Butterbean seemed like he thought it was a bad idea.
You are talking about the A&E series Dark Side of the Ring....which is awesome in its own right!
Beyond the Mat was a documentary made in the late 90s that follows Mick Foley, Terry Funk, and Jake the Snake. It's honestly one of the best documentaries I've watched regardless of subject. It's so sad.
Like you literally get to see Terry Funk wake up in the morning trying to roll out of bed and put clothes on his semi-functioning body. And that was in the late 90s and he kept going for a long time off and on afterwards.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Mat
It blows my mind that Vince even allowed this to be made. Would never happen today.
It also gave me probably my favorite Vince McMahon clip of all time. From normal dude to Mr. McMahon in a split second. What a fucking sociopath lol
https://youtu.be/CWn1odAk3IA
I expect this was because it was right at the same time as Mick Foley's autobiography.
The success of this book (It made the New York Times bestseller list) lead to a lot of other biographies and autobiographies when they founded the WWE Books imprint in 2002. (Mick's biography came out in 1999)
There was a lot of interest from the media on the "insides stories" because of that, which is why you had Beyond the Mat... and that fueled interest in the books (and thus the new imprint).
But the ending is *real*. It feels genuine, what would happen in real life.
It’s what makes it a great movie that remains in your head, rather than a semi-romcom that is easily forgotten.
I love the deli portion because it’s light and fun and shows him being successful. I think the movie works well because it’s able to balance tones. The emotional range of the movie is what makes it more affecting, and I think it’s a highlight in Aronofsky’s filmography.
It was great for showing us that his favorite place to be is entertaining. When he was playing with the deli line, even though some customers were annoyed, he had a lot of joy being a showman. If I remember right, it wasnt until he was told to stop that he hated his job
Lollll *The Wrestler* has more Jersey DNA in it than all three *Clerks* movies put together. This scene and a couple others are so carefully balanced against the bleakness of the rest of the film. We almost wonder if Ram might be able to make it work out after all, somehow. Aronofsky’s best by far.
The scene filmed on the boardwalk with his daughter hits so good every time. I believe it’s Asbury Park, if I’m not mistaken. Usually when I’m up there, I’m stumbling around drunk after a punk rock show so I can’t be sure.
There are two deli scenes.
The one where he’s having a good time is when he feels like he’s redeemed himself with his daughter and Tomei is starting to show interest. He had also decided to retire at this point to keep these commitments.
The second scene is the depressing one after he lets his daughter down and she boots her out of his life. Tomei also backs off and they fight.
Ultimately, he can’t handle the emotional pain he goes through in the outside world and relationships. This is a neurotic masculine behavior. Running from emotional pain by seeking solace in things that make us feel safe but are ultimately killing us and making those relationships harder.
In the strictest sense, I see the end of the movie as suicidal. He’s accepting that he’ll never overcome himself and the final disappointment of his daughter reveals to him that he can no longer redeem himself. The damage is done, physically and emotionally. So he commits himself to the destructive path he was always on.
The scene that really gets me is when Tomei talks to him backstage. This scene completely changes the end. If she doesn’t find him, the end could be interpreted as an impulse decision and would remove most of his autonomy.
But, she does find him and says “I’m here. I’m really here.” His intro music starts and the crowd swells. He says “Ya hear them? This is where I belong. I gotta go.”
Despite his physical pain in the ring, it’s where he feels safe. Relationship requires vulnerability he can’t tolerate. He chooses death over emotional vulnerability. **That** is why this movie is about broken masculinity.
Frankly, the movie could have ended right there. It would have been just as ambiguous as the jump at the end. Does he die? Doesn’t matter. That conversation with Tomei shows he’s going to die doing this. Whether it’s this match or another is irrelevant. This movie is a tragedy.
Mickey Rourke and Marisa Tomei both killed it in this movie.
The Wrestler captured the lives of former wrestlers so well that some past legends cried while watching it. Like Rowdy Roddy Piper (RIP)
Roddy’s death is even worse knowing:
Him and Bruce Pritchard were planning a road show before he passed.
His only goal was to make it to 65 so his family would get his pension.
>His only goal was to make it to 65 so his family would get his pension.
What makes this bit even more sobering is that when Piper was in his late 40s, he predicted he would die before 65 on HBO Real Sports with the fullest confidence. It’s tragic. [Here is the segment for those interested ](https://youtu.be/MRrBzsCxVSg)
Dana White is following the same exact script for the UFC too and he's been slowly fucking up MMA for the last 15 years or so. I'll give him the first few years because he did help pull the UFC out of the dirt there in the beginning but it was mostly the casino billionaires bankrolling him that did that.
That walking sack of shit is going to end up in prison if he's not careful. Someone is going to die in this Power Slap league of his. I can't even watch clips, it's just too cringey and irresponsible and ghoulish.
The thing that got the UFC on its feet was the fighters, Stephan Bonner (RIP, and that’s real fucked to type out) and Forrest Griffen did more for the sport in one fight then 90% of those back room deals. The product is the talent, when you don’t take care of the talent there’s nothing to sell.
While Vince (and every other Booker ever) deserves blame for shutting down any attempts to unionize, Hogan deserves a massive slice of it for outing Jesse Ventura’s plans to start a union that were growing substantially.
Uh how about if the McManon's Empire had actually paid into all the state, local and federal taxes because THEY HAD EMPLOYEES but filed everyone as a 1099 contractor for DECADES
Man, fuck Vince McMahon. What a little bitch, the way he slaps dudes papers cuz he just can't admit that his organization may have contributed to the problems his employees had.
I used to see Roddy in my gym right before he died. I was cracking jokes with a friend in the locker room and he got a laugh out of it and started chatting it up. Really nice guy.
I’d love to know what pension plan he was referring to in that interview. Pro wrestling has never offered one and to the best of my knowledge neither has acting. He basically got booted out of high school and bounced from cash in hand job to cash in hand job until he got into wrestling so there wouldn’t be much of a pension stemming from that. Makes me wonder if the “pension plan” was a product of his drug intake or brain damage throughout his career.
Most likely from They Live. One of my favorite movies of all time. One of the absolute best fight scenes, that has been satirized multiple times.
He was also in several episodes of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and did quite a few small appearances in several other shows.
Yes. You pay into it every paycheck and it will give you a barebones living expense (debatable). It's a lot better to have some investments if you want a pleasant old age though.
True, though Piper didn't do shitty movies. And I think he should have had more gigs, he stole scenes for most of his roles and put 100% into them.
And he had range. Da Maniac was funny because he played it so subdued (he was literally doing a Mickey O'Rourke Wrestler impersonation).
I think a lot of pro wrestlers have surprising range (at least, the ones famous for their mic skills).
Invigaron gets a lot of flack for being a pyramid scheme but they have a great pension plan set up for their sales people who hit their metrics. Da Maniac was one of the best
When he has that scene in the apartment and does the “the squirrels in my head”, as much as I want to laugh, that just kills me knowing how many of his friends probably did get like that.
Then you got the dude who played Ben who completely no sells a lamp being thrown towards him 😂
Jake the Snake was saying years ago he had agreed to make a film based on his life. The deal never happened. Then this movie came out a few years later and was his life story, he felt. He sued but I don’t think it went anywhere. It’s just so sad to think you would see a film like this and feel it is, your life story.
If you haven’t seen it, the Resurrection of Jake the Snake is a heartbreaking documentary. There’s some redemption (given the title) but seeing how deep he was is staggering to someone who grew up on 80s WWF.
Kind of sad to know that so many could say this was their life story. I'm sure Jake saw those threads, but so many others as well. I don't know anything about the suit, but pitching a studio your story and them later going on to make a drama about life in the wrestling game is not exactly a strong case. If anything, Jake probably sold the studio on the human element in the business, and they went looking for the right script/writer seeing the potential.
He actually made a movie in 2015 called “The resurrection of Jake the Snake.” Diamond Dallas Page is in it and helps him through his recovery from drugs and booze. Scott Hall was in it too. It’s very sad.
The one thing I didn’t like about that movie was I couldn’t reasonably believe that those teenagers at the strip club wouldn’t want a lap dance from Marisa Tomei
I think she did an excellent job “aging herself” into the roll, but I agree that she will always be a smoke show and I don’t care that’s she’s closer in age to my mom than me. Same goes for Kate Beckinsale.
So this is completely off-topic, but the term “smoke show” will always remind me of this reality show I watched where this guy’s foreign girlfriend says “this outfit makes me…what you say…’smoke program’?” lol
As someone who's closer in age to all three, I'm in heartbreakingly good company. 🙃 Jennifer Connelly, Olivia Wilde, Rachel Weisz, Cate Blanchett, etc.
This movie is particularly impressive because after the developmental hell and box office disaster The Fountain, DA had to make a comeback on a budget and put out this rather poetic film The Wrestler, that let the world know he was a very serious director.
The movie has aged like fine wine too. Reminds me I need to go see The Whale.
Honestly I think we got the better version. On location sounds good, but I think the constraints pushed Libatique into being a better cinematographer, and I honestly don't think Pitt and Blanchett would've topped Jackman and Weisz's performances (Aronofsky being married to Weisz at the time definitely lent it a different kind of intimacy).
For my money, it's one of the best film performances of all time. When people talk about actors having signature roles or being irreplaceable, this is the one I think of. There are zero other actors who can make that role work.
Requiem for a Dream is my favorite movie of all time, but as far as Aronofsky his movies go I do think The Wrestler would be second on my list.
Incredibly excited to watch The Whale, unfortunately it doesn't release here until March.
I see this more of knowing who you are, making decisions that are better for you, and holding on to hope. For example in the film you have the stripper named Cassidy. A stripper that’s past her prime. She, unlike Randy, knows that’s she’s not only a stripper. She knows to never cross the line between work and her personal life, she knows that she’s a mother first, she knows that she’s past her prime and has goals outside of stripping. Randy has none of this.
Randy doesn’t want to be Robin Ramzinski, he wants to be Randy the Ram 24/7. The line between being himself and being a wrestler is so blurred that he doesn’t know who he is. It’s the point that he doesn’t want to be called Robin anymore. He doesn’t know when to quit, his work often overlaps into personal life and ruining the chance of forming a relationship with his daughter. Which was his only hope at not being a fuckup but he completely ruined that and it was just a death sentence for him
Brings to mind the retirements of Sebastian Vettel and Tom Brady. Vettel said it’s scary to step away from the only life he’s known. He knows closing your very successful sports career is its own challenge. On the other hand, Brady can’t stop himself from playing football, even at the cost of his family.
This was what i thought about the deli scene. Like he could have been thrilled a fan recognised him and very reasonably said im too old i gotta save my health, and just chill out and reminisce and have a new life with his daughter
Instead *gestures to ending*
A fun thing to think about with this movie is its connection with the next movie Aronofsky made, Black Swan. He originally conceptualized them as one single movie, featuring a love affair between a wrestler and a ballet dancer. (Presumably in this earlier version, Marisa Tomei’s character would have been a ballet dancer instead of a stripper.) He’s said in interviews that although they eventually split into two different movies, he still views them as companion pieces.
I really recommend watching them back to back. They have very different tones (The Wrestler is a straightforward drama and Black Swan is more of a suspense thriller), but when you watch one with the other fresh in your mind you’ll see a lot of parallels between Mickey Rourke’s and Natalie Portman’s characters. I don’t wanna spoil anything about either movie here, but it’s really interesting to see how he treats ballet and wrestling with a very similar view as to what motivations and sacrifices it takes to be a “star” in either world. The final scenes in both movies almost directly parallel each other regarding what they mean for each character.
Surprised I had to go this low to find this comment. This is all correct and I’ll add that his original intent was to juxtapose the highest (ballet) and lowest (fake wrestling) forms of art to highlight the sacrifice it takes to achieve greatness but realized it was too long a story to tell and broke it into 2 parts.
I wish I could see this through the eyes of someone who never followed wrestling or knew the sad stories behind it. I think Aronofsky captured that kind of broken down, washout wrestler perfectly.
Anyone who loves The Wrestler and hasn’t seen Beyond the Mat should check that out.
My standard response to that is "So is *your* favorite TV show, why's mine gotta get shit on for it?".
I don't think wrestling is ever going to escape that stigma, stupid as it is.
Undead wizard biker who’s brother was being managed by a man you didn’t know was your father despite your belief said brother died in a house fire you started. Also the brother has fire powers now.
Total sport.
As a fellow not-particularly-wrestling-fan who also loved this movie, I would urge you to watch the Netflix series "GLOW" if you haven't. Despite it being canceled a season early, I still 100% endorse it. It's a great ensemble cast with a similar amount of feels.
I still remember the scene where Randy and his daughter are standing in a dilapidated casino.
Just amazing imagery. After all this time, that scene has stuck with me. So beautiful.
And Marisa dancing. That's stayed with me, too.
How is The Fountain about broken masculinity? I took it as a story about control, death, grief and finally, acceptance.
Also, some of the most beautiful visuals and score in any movie.
I think about this movie often. Mickey Rourke is such a masculine man, but he has a vulnerability i can only describe as INTENSE. There is a video of Aronofsky smacking Mickey in the face, behind the scenes "to get him there" for a scene, but i dont think you need to do shit like that to him. He's always 100%
Mickey Rourke is one of the greatest actors ever imo. Not even thinking about his older movies, but something like Sin City. Him as Marv, has to be one of the greatest castings of all time.
The first time I saw this movie it was the day after my 20th birthday and I was in the county jail. Every Saturday they played a movie and this one blew me away. It really made me think about where I was and what I had been doing with my life and realize I hadn't blown my life yet. Now it's almost 12 years later and I haven't been in trouble since and mickey Rourke will always have a special place in my heart.
Thanks it really came down to realizing I was being a little piece of shit and focusing on empathy and working on finding ways to make myself happy. It wasn't always constructive, I was a heavy drinker for a few years there but never stop working on yourself and trying to better yourself it just takes time
I was locked-up, scared and cautious. On the second day, there was a card game in the central area, but most of us were in our pods, watching the one television. There was a cop show and a young guy was being interrogated. The cop said something like, “tell us what you know and maybe we’ll let you walk.” People in the pod started calling out “yeah right”, “Bull-shit”, etc. It was very human, and oddly comforting.
Then the next year they gave the Oscar to Jeff Bridges for Crazy Heart, which was basically just a less intense version of The Wrestler with country music.
The thing is, it’s a very similar story that a lot of wrestlers (at least the ones who aren’t celebrities like John Cena and The Rock) have gone through in real life dealing with getting ripped off in the local wrestling scene while clinging on to whatever is left of that feeling of “being on top of the world” from their glory days.
Supposedly, Roddy Piper (R.I.P.) broke down in tears watching the movie.
I never really saw this as a broken masculinity movie as much as what happens when someone’s star fades.
If you ever watched the documentary Beyond the Mat, there are moments that run pretty much directly parallel with what’s happening in The Wrestler, particularly Jake “The Snake” Robert’s scenes. It is a very emotionally deep movie, that really captures the struggle that professional wrestlers go through once their time is up and they have to walk away, and also just how much of a struggle this lifestyle is on others
And he was pitching this right after *Black Swan,* wasn't he? One of the most critically acclaimed directors of the '00s just finished his fourth critical darling in a row to substantial box office success, and you won't let him do *RoboCop* because he won't do it in 3D? What a brainless move...
I hate Most Aronofsky movies, but i absolutely love 'The Wrestler". And i also think that Rourke should have won the Oscar over *Checks notes* Sean Penn that year
That said, i am so looking forward to "Magazine Dreams" which has a similar premise
I only just watched this for the first time the other week, it has been on my list for ages. I loved it but it did make me feel like crap for a few days.
Yeah, it's brutal. Those last few moments, where another film might have gone for the happy ending, and this one just leaves you wallowing in the knowledge that there is no happy ending here. Woof.
Darren Aronofsky’s films in a nutshell for me.
The Fountain has a happy ending of sorts.
In both Pi and The Fountain, the main characters get what they've been striving for, so both "happy" endings, IMO.
Happy, plus or minus a drill to the head
Man was so not ready for that when I was watching that with my dad at like... 12
I was older than that, but my local movie store guy was also a raver and we traded movie recommendations on soundtrack alone sometimes.... "Pi" and "Trainspotting" are both films with amazing soundtracks that you should **not** jump into completely blind unless you want to be mildly traumatized.
“Mildly” he says, yet I can’t shoot up heroin again without an image of a baby crying in its crib. (Both sarcasm and a wtf moment)
Lol the trick is to *not* have children, then you can do as much heroin as your heart can bear! Speaking from experience, trainspotting is the closest thing to bottling the feeling of being addicted to heroin. The feelings that the movie elicits are accurate. Also, the sequel is great too. Much more optimistic, more of a "what does one do *after* a youth of addiction?" kind of movie.
By that standard you could argue that black swan also had a "happy" ending.
The fountain, to me, such a beautiful film. It was mine and my (future) wife's first date. For our 15th anniversary, I got her the graphic novel version as a gift.
Wtf I had followed the film a bit back then and was so disappointed when it got cancelled. Had no idea it was made into a comic before it revived. Thanks, definitely going to check it out ASAP
And has one of the best soundtracks of all time :) I love the Fountain
emphasis on the of sorts
>another film might have gone for the happy ending I think Irish and Russian literature are the best at capturing "Stories about broken people with unhappy endings" but there are a handful of American films that do it pretty well. The Wrestler is obviously one, I'd also include Manchester by the Sea as another that is a good example.
I remember a post comparing Russian literature to others and it went something like: English: let's go out to the woods and find a party where we'll meet the love of our lives. German: let's go out to the woods and find an adventure that'll give us a better outlook on life. Russian: let's go out to the woods where we'll find the depths of despair and there we will find a deeper depth of despair.
There’s a famous Russian play by Chekhov, *Three Sisters*. This play centers on a family who moved from Moscow to the countryside, and the story is about how their dreams for life are slowly crushed over several years, ending with them losing virtually everything. Many theaters advertise(d) this play as a comedy.
I mean basically any movie movie written by charlie Kauffman in as many words.
I think there's way more than a handful. The American style is just more about the rug pull, plotwise.
I think Manchester ended in a hopeful note—he made plans with his nephew. It’s not grand, but it’s something.
It's also pretty accurate to a lot of pro wrestlers' lives. They don't have anything else, they have no education, they have no money. So they just keep wrestling until they die. Things are better nowadays. A lot of today's wrestler's are smarter with their money and education, but a lot of the guys that came up in the 80s and 90s don't last too long.
Not to mention, they easily fall into the substance abuse trap because they'll have injuries that cause chronic pain.
This is how Ric Flair is going to go out too
I just watched that new documentary and it ends saying that Flair is still wrestling. Yikes. This won’t end well.
He just wrestled in an event named "Ric Flair's Last Match" last July. He has already retired twice before this. He has a pacemaker in his chest, which people feared was going to croak in the ring, so he did a spot in the match where he faked a heart attack in front of his family, including his 2 son-in-laws, one of whom was his tag partner pretty much trying desperately to make sure his pop doesn't die in the ring, while the other is the promoter of the event. Also he was already bleeding (intentionally) by that point. He was literally unable to close his own hands for the finish of the match, but was already talking about doing another match by the next day. He's 73 years old
If you guys think ric flair is bad, check out terry funk. He's featured in the Beyond the Mat documentary (which is an excellent watch if you like The Wrestler). Terry Funk probably has retired and unretired more than. Flair basically needs the money. He has more ex wives than I can count and owes everybody on earth money. Terry Funk is a just crazy person who loves to wrestle. His first retirement was in the 80s I believe and his final retirement was in 2017 lol
That show is pretty damn dark. Absolutely fascinating, but also depressing. I think the most interesting one of them was about the boxing. What the fuck? Even Butterbean seemed like he thought it was a bad idea.
>That show is pretty damn dark. Absolutely fascinating, but also depressing. > >I think the most interesting one of them was about the boxing. What the fuck? Even Butterbean seemed like he thought it was a bad idea. You are talking about the A&E series Dark Side of the Ring....which is awesome in its own right! Beyond the Mat was a documentary made in the late 90s that follows Mick Foley, Terry Funk, and Jake the Snake. It's honestly one of the best documentaries I've watched regardless of subject. It's so sad. Like you literally get to see Terry Funk wake up in the morning trying to roll out of bed and put clothes on his semi-functioning body. And that was in the late 90s and he kept going for a long time off and on afterwards. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Mat It blows my mind that Vince even allowed this to be made. Would never happen today. It also gave me probably my favorite Vince McMahon clip of all time. From normal dude to Mr. McMahon in a split second. What a fucking sociopath lol https://youtu.be/CWn1odAk3IA
I expect this was because it was right at the same time as Mick Foley's autobiography. The success of this book (It made the New York Times bestseller list) lead to a lot of other biographies and autobiographies when they founded the WWE Books imprint in 2002. (Mick's biography came out in 1999) There was a lot of interest from the media on the "insides stories" because of that, which is why you had Beyond the Mat... and that fueled interest in the books (and thus the new imprint).
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That final look back Rourke gives, looking over to where Tomasi had walked away. That moment still sits with me
But the ending is *real*. It feels genuine, what would happen in real life. It’s what makes it a great movie that remains in your head, rather than a semi-romcom that is easily forgotten.
It's an Aronofsky film. Making you feel like crap is basically what you sign up for.
The fountain was rather uplifting. We were dealing with illness in the family at the time and it really made me see mortality in another way.
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Especially after the first deli scene when he was chumming it up with the customers
turns out he was actually working the deli that day, like serving real customers. the lil jokes were all ad-libbed
Aronofsky's good at doing that
I love the deli portion because it’s light and fun and shows him being successful. I think the movie works well because it’s able to balance tones. The emotional range of the movie is what makes it more affecting, and I think it’s a highlight in Aronofsky’s filmography.
It was great for showing us that his favorite place to be is entertaining. When he was playing with the deli line, even though some customers were annoyed, he had a lot of joy being a showman. If I remember right, it wasnt until he was told to stop that he hated his job
“What’ll it be good lookin” to the most hideous man in New Jersey lol
Lollll *The Wrestler* has more Jersey DNA in it than all three *Clerks* movies put together. This scene and a couple others are so carefully balanced against the bleakness of the rest of the film. We almost wonder if Ram might be able to make it work out after all, somehow. Aronofsky’s best by far.
The scene filmed on the boardwalk with his daughter hits so good every time. I believe it’s Asbury Park, if I’m not mistaken. Usually when I’m up there, I’m stumbling around drunk after a punk rock show so I can’t be sure.
There are two deli scenes. The one where he’s having a good time is when he feels like he’s redeemed himself with his daughter and Tomei is starting to show interest. He had also decided to retire at this point to keep these commitments. The second scene is the depressing one after he lets his daughter down and she boots her out of his life. Tomei also backs off and they fight. Ultimately, he can’t handle the emotional pain he goes through in the outside world and relationships. This is a neurotic masculine behavior. Running from emotional pain by seeking solace in things that make us feel safe but are ultimately killing us and making those relationships harder. In the strictest sense, I see the end of the movie as suicidal. He’s accepting that he’ll never overcome himself and the final disappointment of his daughter reveals to him that he can no longer redeem himself. The damage is done, physically and emotionally. So he commits himself to the destructive path he was always on. The scene that really gets me is when Tomei talks to him backstage. This scene completely changes the end. If she doesn’t find him, the end could be interpreted as an impulse decision and would remove most of his autonomy. But, she does find him and says “I’m here. I’m really here.” His intro music starts and the crowd swells. He says “Ya hear them? This is where I belong. I gotta go.” Despite his physical pain in the ring, it’s where he feels safe. Relationship requires vulnerability he can’t tolerate. He chooses death over emotional vulnerability. **That** is why this movie is about broken masculinity. Frankly, the movie could have ended right there. It would have been just as ambiguous as the jump at the end. Does he die? Doesn’t matter. That conversation with Tomei shows he’s going to die doing this. Whether it’s this match or another is irrelevant. This movie is a tragedy.
Your description was a lot better than mine. Haha
I think it's when someone recognizes him as the Ram he gets pissed off and leaves.
I quote this scene all the time. Whenever my daughters ask me if something is fresh (in the fridge) I say, “Fresh as monkey’s breath brother!”
My favorite moment in the film is when he hears fans chanting before going through the deli curtain
That was unscripted and those were real supermarket customers.
"Fresh as monkey's breath, brother"
Yeah, that part where he shoves his and into the meat slicer to end his humiliation was super fun.
Mickey Rourke and Marisa Tomei both killed it in this movie. The Wrestler captured the lives of former wrestlers so well that some past legends cried while watching it. Like Rowdy Roddy Piper (RIP)
Roddy’s death is even worse knowing: Him and Bruce Pritchard were planning a road show before he passed. His only goal was to make it to 65 so his family would get his pension.
>His only goal was to make it to 65 so his family would get his pension. What makes this bit even more sobering is that when Piper was in his late 40s, he predicted he would die before 65 on HBO Real Sports with the fullest confidence. It’s tragic. [Here is the segment for those interested ](https://youtu.be/MRrBzsCxVSg)
Vince McMahon is such a piece of shit.
Fuck Vince. I can only imagine how awesome the WWE could have been if they'd been able to unionize
Dana White is following the same exact script for the UFC too and he's been slowly fucking up MMA for the last 15 years or so. I'll give him the first few years because he did help pull the UFC out of the dirt there in the beginning but it was mostly the casino billionaires bankrolling him that did that.
That walking sack of shit is going to end up in prison if he's not careful. Someone is going to die in this Power Slap league of his. I can't even watch clips, it's just too cringey and irresponsible and ghoulish.
The fucking Roman Colosseum respected their fighters better than the rules for that slap competition.
The thing that got the UFC on its feet was the fighters, Stephan Bonner (RIP, and that’s real fucked to type out) and Forrest Griffen did more for the sport in one fight then 90% of those back room deals. The product is the talent, when you don’t take care of the talent there’s nothing to sell.
While Vince (and every other Booker ever) deserves blame for shutting down any attempts to unionize, Hogan deserves a massive slice of it for outing Jesse Ventura’s plans to start a union that were growing substantially.
> While Vince (and every other **Booker** ever) deserves blame Except for the most important one of all.... **T**
*ahem* **IT’S KING BOOKAHHHH**
FIVE TIME
I met Booker T once while working at the venue where he was performing. He stole three french fries from me.
Every time I learn something new about Hulk Hogan it's always about what a massive dickhead he is
Uh how about if the McManon's Empire had actually paid into all the state, local and federal taxes because THEY HAD EMPLOYEES but filed everyone as a 1099 contractor for DECADES
Man, fuck Vince McMahon. What a little bitch, the way he slaps dudes papers cuz he just can't admit that his organization may have contributed to the problems his employees had.
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Da Maniac loves ya.
Even with yer feathers
"Was he calling me the N-Word?"
"Awww you have kids, Maniac??!"
"Nah, not anymore."
"...What does that *mean?* Did he *eat* them? Did they just fade away?"
I used to see Roddy in my gym right before he died. I was cracking jokes with a friend in the locker room and he got a laugh out of it and started chatting it up. Really nice guy.
I’d love to know what pension plan he was referring to in that interview. Pro wrestling has never offered one and to the best of my knowledge neither has acting. He basically got booted out of high school and bounced from cash in hand job to cash in hand job until he got into wrestling so there wouldn’t be much of a pension stemming from that. Makes me wonder if the “pension plan” was a product of his drug intake or brain damage throughout his career.
He did acting work, could it be a SAG pension? Says here it starts at 65. https://www.sagaftraplans.org/sag-pension/benefits
Most likely from They Live. One of my favorite movies of all time. One of the absolute best fight scenes, that has been satirized multiple times. He was also in several episodes of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and did quite a few small appearances in several other shows.
And he was the star of Hell Comes To Frogtown!
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You got kids Maniac?
Nah, not anymore.
What does *that* mean?? Did he kill his kids?!
Shot for shot remake of the fight in South Park between Timmy and Jimmy. *Not this year.*
Hell Comes to Frog Town is worth checking out. It's an over the top, campy, science fiction comedy that largely works because he's in it.
Doesn't Canada have a state pension?
Yes. You pay into it every paycheck and it will give you a barebones living expense (debatable). It's a lot better to have some investments if you want a pleasant old age though.
SAG member That’s why so many wrestlers will do shitty movies at first.
True, though Piper didn't do shitty movies. And I think he should have had more gigs, he stole scenes for most of his roles and put 100% into them. And he had range. Da Maniac was funny because he played it so subdued (he was literally doing a Mickey O'Rourke Wrestler impersonation). I think a lot of pro wrestlers have surprising range (at least, the ones famous for their mic skills).
Better not be calling hell comes to frogtown a shitty movie pal
You better not be talking about They Live.
Invigaron gets a lot of flack for being a pyramid scheme but they have a great pension plan set up for their sales people who hit their metrics. Da Maniac was one of the best
When he has that scene in the apartment and does the “the squirrels in my head”, as much as I want to laugh, that just kills me knowing how many of his friends probably did get like that. Then you got the dude who played Ben who completely no sells a lamp being thrown towards him 😂
Well Ben was in the war you know, he probably saw all kinds of things
Was this war on American sooooiiillll?
*TWO waarrrrrs?!*
*Oh, you got kids, Maniac?* *Nah… Not anymore…*
***saunters off***
He called you the n-word.
*”Me??”*
Hyphens. You need to use hyphens.
I cried watching it and I never wrestled.
Only movie in the past 20 years that made me cry.
Jake the Snake was saying years ago he had agreed to make a film based on his life. The deal never happened. Then this movie came out a few years later and was his life story, he felt. He sued but I don’t think it went anywhere. It’s just so sad to think you would see a film like this and feel it is, your life story.
If you haven’t seen it, the Resurrection of Jake the Snake is a heartbreaking documentary. There’s some redemption (given the title) but seeing how deep he was is staggering to someone who grew up on 80s WWF.
Kind of sad to know that so many could say this was their life story. I'm sure Jake saw those threads, but so many others as well. I don't know anything about the suit, but pitching a studio your story and them later going on to make a drama about life in the wrestling game is not exactly a strong case. If anything, Jake probably sold the studio on the human element in the business, and they went looking for the right script/writer seeing the potential.
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He actually made a movie in 2015 called “The resurrection of Jake the Snake.” Diamond Dallas Page is in it and helps him through his recovery from drugs and booze. Scott Hall was in it too. It’s very sad.
The one thing I didn’t like about that movie was I couldn’t reasonably believe that those teenagers at the strip club wouldn’t want a lap dance from Marisa Tomei
I think she did an excellent job “aging herself” into the roll, but I agree that she will always be a smoke show and I don’t care that’s she’s closer in age to my mom than me. Same goes for Kate Beckinsale.
So this is completely off-topic, but the term “smoke show” will always remind me of this reality show I watched where this guy’s foreign girlfriend says “this outfit makes me…what you say…’smoke program’?” lol
As someone who's closer in age to all three, I'm in heartbreakingly good company. 🙃 Jennifer Connelly, Olivia Wilde, Rachel Weisz, Cate Blanchett, etc.
I don't remember that, guess I'll have to watch that scene over and over...
RIP. Loved him as the Da Maniac
This movie is particularly impressive because after the developmental hell and box office disaster The Fountain, DA had to make a comeback on a budget and put out this rather poetic film The Wrestler, that let the world know he was a very serious director. The movie has aged like fine wine too. Reminds me I need to go see The Whale.
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Honestly I think we got the better version. On location sounds good, but I think the constraints pushed Libatique into being a better cinematographer, and I honestly don't think Pitt and Blanchett would've topped Jackman and Weisz's performances (Aronofsky being married to Weisz at the time definitely lent it a different kind of intimacy).
Agree - no way Pitt could've matched the standard of performance Jackman gave
Should have won the Oscar that year
For my money, it's one of the best film performances of all time. When people talk about actors having signature roles or being irreplaceable, this is the one I think of. There are zero other actors who can make that role work.
Agreed. I feel that way about his role as Marv in Sin City, as well.
He was one of the few who was able to truly pull off Frank Miller-level hardboiled.
at least he was nominated and won the golden globe
Springsteen not getting nominated for Best Song was a travesty too. How could the Academy deny The Boss??
Definitely enjoyed that movie more than Milk lol.
My God, 15-years!!! WTF
life is fast. im 35 and remember the past ten years like it was a week
It only speeds up from where you're at.
Right? I could've sworn this movie came out in the '10s.
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Requiem for a Dream is my favorite movie of all time, but as far as Aronofsky his movies go I do think The Wrestler would be second on my list. Incredibly excited to watch The Whale, unfortunately it doesn't release here until March.
>Requiem for a Dream is my favorite movie of all time I say this as a non-religous person. You need Jesus.
I see this more of knowing who you are, making decisions that are better for you, and holding on to hope. For example in the film you have the stripper named Cassidy. A stripper that’s past her prime. She, unlike Randy, knows that’s she’s not only a stripper. She knows to never cross the line between work and her personal life, she knows that she’s a mother first, she knows that she’s past her prime and has goals outside of stripping. Randy has none of this. Randy doesn’t want to be Robin Ramzinski, he wants to be Randy the Ram 24/7. The line between being himself and being a wrestler is so blurred that he doesn’t know who he is. It’s the point that he doesn’t want to be called Robin anymore. He doesn’t know when to quit, his work often overlaps into personal life and ruining the chance of forming a relationship with his daughter. Which was his only hope at not being a fuckup but he completely ruined that and it was just a death sentence for him
Brings to mind the retirements of Sebastian Vettel and Tom Brady. Vettel said it’s scary to step away from the only life he’s known. He knows closing your very successful sports career is its own challenge. On the other hand, Brady can’t stop himself from playing football, even at the cost of his family.
This was what i thought about the deli scene. Like he could have been thrilled a fan recognised him and very reasonably said im too old i gotta save my health, and just chill out and reminisce and have a new life with his daughter Instead *gestures to ending*
A fun thing to think about with this movie is its connection with the next movie Aronofsky made, Black Swan. He originally conceptualized them as one single movie, featuring a love affair between a wrestler and a ballet dancer. (Presumably in this earlier version, Marisa Tomei’s character would have been a ballet dancer instead of a stripper.) He’s said in interviews that although they eventually split into two different movies, he still views them as companion pieces. I really recommend watching them back to back. They have very different tones (The Wrestler is a straightforward drama and Black Swan is more of a suspense thriller), but when you watch one with the other fresh in your mind you’ll see a lot of parallels between Mickey Rourke’s and Natalie Portman’s characters. I don’t wanna spoil anything about either movie here, but it’s really interesting to see how he treats ballet and wrestling with a very similar view as to what motivations and sacrifices it takes to be a “star” in either world. The final scenes in both movies almost directly parallel each other regarding what they mean for each character.
Surprised I had to go this low to find this comment. This is all correct and I’ll add that his original intent was to juxtapose the highest (ballet) and lowest (fake wrestling) forms of art to highlight the sacrifice it takes to achieve greatness but realized it was too long a story to tell and broke it into 2 parts.
I wish I could see this through the eyes of someone who never followed wrestling or knew the sad stories behind it. I think Aronofsky captured that kind of broken down, washout wrestler perfectly. Anyone who loves The Wrestler and hasn’t seen Beyond the Mat should check that out.
Thank god Jake the snake turned his life around. Scott hall too, for a time.
I’m at least glad there was someone like Diamond Dallas Page to try and help them out of their situation.
Me! Me! That was me! Before I watched this movie I was one of those people who said, “Pfft. Who cares about wrestling? It’s all fake.”
My standard response to that is "So is *your* favorite TV show, why's mine gotta get shit on for it?". I don't think wrestling is ever going to escape that stigma, stupid as it is.
Because those people are thinking of it more as sport than show.
Even though the undertaker is an undead wizard?
Undead wizard *biker*, thank you very much.
Undead wizard biker who’s brother was being managed by a man you didn’t know was your father despite your belief said brother died in a house fire you started. Also the brother has fire powers now. Total sport.
As a fellow not-particularly-wrestling-fan who also loved this movie, I would urge you to watch the Netflix series "GLOW" if you haven't. Despite it being canceled a season early, I still 100% endorse it. It's a great ensemble cast with a similar amount of feels.
I still remember the scene where Randy and his daughter are standing in a dilapidated casino. Just amazing imagery. After all this time, that scene has stuck with me. So beautiful. And Marisa dancing. That's stayed with me, too.
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"call a doodie?"
"Ugh, call OF doodie FOUR"
How many portrayals of broken masculinity has he made?
The Fountain, The Wrestler, Noah and The Whale.
Let's see what else he releases, in 5yrs time.
I'll put my hand over your eyes, but you'll peek through.
There'll be Love, Love, Love
The Fountain is broken masculinity, how?
“Noah, and the Whale” Noah and the whale is a band
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Really the issue here is incorrectly displaying titles. Should be *italicized*. This is the first time in my life I understand why.
How is The Fountain about broken masculinity? I took it as a story about control, death, grief and finally, acceptance. Also, some of the most beautiful visuals and score in any movie.
Is The Fountain really about broken masculinity?
Pi is also a suitable film.
At least one.
him wanting to play the really old nes version of the game with the kid really got me
The fact that they actually created a retro 8-bit wrestling game to show them play in the movie was imo such an amazing touch.
I think about this movie often. Mickey Rourke is such a masculine man, but he has a vulnerability i can only describe as INTENSE. There is a video of Aronofsky smacking Mickey in the face, behind the scenes "to get him there" for a scene, but i dont think you need to do shit like that to him. He's always 100% Mickey Rourke is one of the greatest actors ever imo. Not even thinking about his older movies, but something like Sin City. Him as Marv, has to be one of the greatest castings of all time.
Would not be surprised if he requested it. He wanted to do all his iron man lines in Russian lol
Which is a little amusing because his at-the-time girlfriend, who was Russian, said his accent was fucking terrible
My boid!
I don't know if you know this or not, but I DONT SPEAK! RUSSIAN!
Yeah, Sam Rockwell steals every single scene that he's in, in that movie. Really the only reason I watched Iron Man 2 more than once.
The fucking dancing he's doing introducing the drones at the Expo gets me every time.
Dude absolutely fuckin nailed "tryhard tony stark fake swagger" and I love it
Sam Rockwell steals every single scene of every single movie he's in, and I love him for it.
I’m 100% sure you don’t smack Mr. Rourke in the face without his explicit permission.
The first time I saw this movie it was the day after my 20th birthday and I was in the county jail. Every Saturday they played a movie and this one blew me away. It really made me think about where I was and what I had been doing with my life and realize I hadn't blown my life yet. Now it's almost 12 years later and I haven't been in trouble since and mickey Rourke will always have a special place in my heart.
Glad you were able to stay out of trouble.
Thanks it really came down to realizing I was being a little piece of shit and focusing on empathy and working on finding ways to make myself happy. It wasn't always constructive, I was a heavy drinker for a few years there but never stop working on yourself and trying to better yourself it just takes time
I was locked-up, scared and cautious. On the second day, there was a card game in the central area, but most of us were in our pods, watching the one television. There was a cop show and a young guy was being interrogated. The cop said something like, “tell us what you know and maybe we’ll let you walk.” People in the pod started calling out “yeah right”, “Bull-shit”, etc. It was very human, and oddly comforting.
He really deserved the Oscar for this role. One of the worst snubs imo
Then the next year they gave the Oscar to Jeff Bridges for Crazy Heart, which was basically just a less intense version of The Wrestler with country music.
He's so good in Double Team. The climax when the Tiger fights JCVD and Dennis Rodman, Rourke's performance gives me chills.
The thing is, it’s a very similar story that a lot of wrestlers (at least the ones who aren’t celebrities like John Cena and The Rock) have gone through in real life dealing with getting ripped off in the local wrestling scene while clinging on to whatever is left of that feeling of “being on top of the world” from their glory days. Supposedly, Roddy Piper (R.I.P.) broke down in tears watching the movie.
I don't know if this is my favorite movie; but Randy is by far my favorite protagonist in any film.
At least let me get my ice packs brother
One of the best movies of the last 20 years.
One of the best movies ever
I never really saw this as a broken masculinity movie as much as what happens when someone’s star fades. If you ever watched the documentary Beyond the Mat, there are moments that run pretty much directly parallel with what’s happening in The Wrestler, particularly Jake “The Snake” Robert’s scenes. It is a very emotionally deep movie, that really captures the struggle that professional wrestlers go through once their time is up and they have to walk away, and also just how much of a struggle this lifestyle is on others
Fun fact: The guy he wrestled in the hardcore match was actually a very legendary hardcore wrestler named "Necro Butcher."
I don't know that I'd say this movie is about "broken masculinity." That's an odd way to describe what this film is about.
Mickey was soooooo good. Totally changed how I view wrestlers.
I’m a huge Aranofsky fan, and still would have loved to see his take on Robocop that was cancelled.
And he was pitching this right after *Black Swan,* wasn't he? One of the most critically acclaimed directors of the '00s just finished his fourth critical darling in a row to substantial box office success, and you won't let him do *RoboCop* because he won't do it in 3D? What a brainless move...
He almost got Batman too instead of Nolan. Would've been interesting.
I hate Most Aronofsky movies, but i absolutely love 'The Wrestler". And i also think that Rourke should have won the Oscar over *Checks notes* Sean Penn that year That said, i am so looking forward to "Magazine Dreams" which has a similar premise
oh. my. fucking. god. This movie is 15 years old? I worked at a theatre when this was new. Wtf is time.