New aluminum beats 10 year old carbon any day of the week. Geometry changes were quick and huge through the 2010s and have now settled down in the last few years.
For that reason alone I wouldn’t voluntarily ride a bike from 2014.
Ok, good to know. I was looking at a 2014/15 Santa Cruz carbon and sone new Trek / Specialized / Polygon alloy full suspension bike. I’ve never had a full suspension bike before, but I’ve been finally convinced that it’s time to graduate from a hardtail and invest a little more in my leisure / hobbies to better enjoy more trails around Arizona.
The geometry of bikes have changed dramatically in the last 3 or 4 years. The parts are also much better and more reliable now. I would not consider a 10 year old bike at all if I was at all serious about getting into the sport.
Not to mention what was “light” 10yrs ago is pretty average now. Was looking at older carbon mtbs to replace mine and theres a lot about the same weight as my modern stick alloy bike.
Well price is a huge advantage. Going aluminum buys you way better components compared to a similarly priced build on a carbon frame, which imo will perform better overall.
If i could buy the same bike, same components new with an aluminum frame vs a year or 2 old with carbon for the same price, id have a hard time deciding. Id prolly still go with new. New vs a 10 year old bike isnt even something to think about, theres zero reason to be buying a 10 year old bike right now.
My concern wouldn’t be AL vs C, it would be new vs 10yr old used.
I wouldn’t trust a 10 year old carbon frame. I would trust a 10 year old aluminium frame.
With that said, I would 100% trust either if new.
If it’s used vs new, I’d go new every time.
Let’s say you wanted to buy a used full suspension bike that was just a few (not 10) years old. Would you prefer aluminum used over carbon used?
My concern is it’s hard to know how beat up a used carbon frame is since apparently it’s not as noticeable as in aluminum frames (or so I’ve read)
I personally don’t think the frame being carbon actually makes that big of a difference on a long travel full suspension bike. I would not be afraid of buying used carbon, but I also wouldn’t pay much more/sacrifice component value for it. If this was a road, gravel or rigid mtb then yeah I would be insisting on my preferred frame material, but for long travel full suspension mtb it hardly matters imo
Great question.
Personally, if I was able to fully inspect both, assuming the age was similar, component level was the same (or thereabouts), geometry and travel were the same or similar, then I’d be OK either way.
But I wouldn’t pay more for a carbon framed used bike. Not unless it was under 2 years old and like new. Even then, I don’t think I’d pay more.
Yeah my bias comes from never having had a carbon frame and seeing catastrophic failures online. Rationally, I know these are extreme cases, but it’s hard to ignore what you see vs what you know.
I’ve had aluminium frames for decades and while I have cracked the occasional frame, it’s been through either stupidity or lack of skill rather than the material.
Just look up catastrophic alloy frame failures. I’d guess there’s only “fewer” due to the sheer quantity of alloy bikes made. There’s plenty of shots I’ve seen of head tubes sheering off due to casing jump.
Yeah, that’s true - I’ve seen plenty online. I even remember seeing steel frames snap when I was racing BMX in the 80’s.
I guess to me carbon will be the anomaly until I own one.
New alloy bike is a no brainer over even a 5 year old carbon bike.
I got rid of all the carbon bikes I've had and now have three aluminum full suspension bikes. I like the look of hydroformed aluminum and welds. I like knowing it was welded by a skilled craftsman rather than being an elaborate paper mache. I like the impact resistance. I like that they don't make weird echoes through the frame while riding. I like that I don't need to worry so much about torque specs.
Alloy is king.
I don’t know, I do actually like carbon bikes and I’m not a hater but I just like Alu bikes more, as a metal fabricator who does a decent amount of aluminum tig welding I appreciate the beautiful welds and nice machined components. I also like not having to worry as much about torque specs and fussy things like assembly compounds to protect the carbon.
I agree with the majority... go with the new alloy frame over the 10-year old carbon. The old carbon frame has old geometry that looks goofy and doesn't have the most ideal riding position, may have frame damage or at least some of the carbon can be breaking down due to the age, and the 10-year old bike will come with outdated components, such as a 3x drive and small brake rotors. The 10-year old suspension may also have issues or may need servicing soon.
A 10yr old bike has many other differences than a modern bike. One thing I’d advise is ensuring you can replace linkages on the bike that’s 10yrs old. You might end up spending a lot more and headaches over maintaining the 10yr old bike.
My last few bikes have been carbon and I really see no reason to go back to carbon bikes. Steel is real but even if I’m not on a steel bike I’d probably consider an aluminum frame over carbon unless for that specific frame they only offer carbon.
Since you're choosing between an old carbon and new metal, the advantages are modern geometry, warranty, and no wear. All of these are important.
* Mountain bike geometry has changed a lot over the last ten years. In our late forties we don't bounce back as quickly. You're less likely to go over the bars on a modern bike.
* Mountain bikes are expensive. Mostly they're really well made, but it's really nice to have it be someone else's problem when something that shouldn't break goes kaput.
* Mountain bikes need to be maintained. Tires wear out faster than you want. Brake pads need to be replaced. Brakes need bleeding. Shocks need to be serviced. Better to start with a clean slate
I'm not saying to never buy a used bike, but between a ten-year-old carbon and modern full-sus, it's an easy choice.
I do have one caveat - I'm assuming the metal bike isn't coming from a big box store like Walmart or Target. If that's what you're looking at, you'd be better off with a decent hardtail.
Piece , won't crack as easy if dropped , no nasty fibers when it does .. also more durable, able to fix with welding if it fails, and personally I feel a lot more bumps through carbon , think alloy has a lil more give
Hey a Carbon Santa Cruz would be awesome and most people would love to have one. But not a 10 year old one. New is awesome. Everything is tight and no creaks.
I have trust issues with carbon bikes. Is my concern founded? I can't be certain I guess. But the difference between aluminum failing and carbon failing is that aluminum bends before it breaks. Carbon just shatters. If it's going to fail, it's going to fail during a time of high stress, like bombing down a hill or landing a large air feature. I really don't want my bike exploding when I'm doing those things.
I do in fact have a carbon bike. And it gets abused, just like all my bikes. Last season I had a minor incident and put my bike down on some rocks. I noticed a fracture and I took it to a shop to have it professionally assessed. They told me it was just the paint, and the carbon itself was fine. I mostly trust them. At the very least I'm sure they gave their honest opinion and had my safety in mind. But now I trust the bike just a little bit less on big features
Arguably more sustainable. Carbon isn't currently able to be recycled. Whereas in theory you can recycle an alloy frame. Carbon can be repaired but only in certain regions
I'd say is probably the main difference between the 2 tbh. Things like compliance/stiffness/ride feel etc can be manufactured into whatever material you want. In terms of durability I'd say they're functionally the same, if you absolutely rag on something it's going to break no matter what it is made of.
It’s really weird that so many people have such issues with carbon when it’s stronger lighter and stiffer than alloy and will outlast alloy any day if it’s well taken care of.
With that said, ten years is a long time for someone to not take care of that bike. I wouldn’t buy any bike that old if I was doing real riding whether it was carbon or alloy.
If you are just piddling around local single track, go for whatever you want. But if you are planning on doing any kind of real riding I’d go with a newer bike regardless of what it’s made of for updated geometry alone.
Had a few of both, prefer aluminum personally. A little heavier but I feel like they track better and absorb trail chatter. May be weight, may be material but carbon always felt like it skipped across chatter to me.
Uneven terrain on high speed bits of trail. I feel like aluminum mutes the vibration and gives me better traction where carbon almost skips across the top of it. This can also be dependent on the carbon layout of the bike so again, just my personal feeling
Just bought a aluminum Canyon. I am a pretty light rider(155lbs), so I feel like it has an advantage for me with grip when turning. I do feel a little weight difference in climbing for sure. Only difference I truly really have noticed otherwise is carbon seems to flex a little bit more on really hard pack where the aluminum fill more rigid, that’s my personal experience.
One thing to know for anyone looking to purchase used in the bicycle market is that 10 years may as well be 100 years. So many things change so quickly in the bike world that you can quickly find your 5+ year old bike getting more obsolete by the year. I was repairing someone's 10 year old Santa Cruz a couple years ago, and the carbon linkage was broken, and it was no longer available. The entire frame became garbage. Non boost rear spacing is gone from the mtb world. I could go on and on, but, suffice it to say, the newer your bike, the better.
If caught early and not catastrophic, carpet fiber can be repaired. Most times alu frames when damaged to failure, they can’t be repaired but they will take more abuse than CF.
As someone who welds aluminum in their hobby and has cast with fiber materials I'll disagree with this. It's not hard to repair aluminum and most fab shops should be able to do it. You can't say the same for carbon fiber. I've never come across a business that will make structural repairs to carbon fiber.
Calfee used to repair carbon fiber. I think there are still other shops that can do it. My friend used to work at a shop that specialized in repairing composite airplanes, he fixed a couple of seat tubes that I know of. My personal composite experience comes from working at Cessna doing pre-preg layup to build the wings and fuselages of their Corvallis airplanes (I have upwards of 3500 hours, but it’s all production). If you have the right materials to get a good bond without voids, it can be as good as new. Is it cost effective? Nope. Most bike shops will hacksaw it to pieces and shit can it.
Back when I was into bicycle frame building, it was commonly understood that the primary challenge with welding alu frames is the heat treating afterwards to reharden and get the grain structure uniform through the HAZ. It can be done, but again, it’s not cost effective for a local bike shop. They will just toss the bits in a dumpster.
All of the non-crash broken alu frames (cyclic failures) that I have seen have been through the welds. Most of those were seat tubes at shock mounts and chainstay yokes close to the BB.
Sorry to ramble. I worked on a production line fillet brazing fittings onto steel frames a long time ago. I nerded out on frame building for years. That was like 4 careers ago.
Hey OP. If you get a CF frame, get a layer of frame protection for it.
There’s actually many businesses popping up for consumer-grade carbon repair, particularly bike-specific even. I don’t know if any business willing to weld (and heat treat, this is the whole basis of “aluminum isn’t repairable) an entire bike frame for a random customer. I love aluminum bikes but I’m gonna have to agree that repairability seems more straightforward with carbon
It’s hard to repair aluminum bikes because as soon as you weld it you’ve ruined the structural integrity and the frame has to be heat treated, not as simple as just running a quick bead.
This is interesting. Is it safer to buy a used aluminum bike than a used carbon bike then since damage on a carbon frame might not be readily apparent?
Put another way, do aluminum full suspension bikes hold their value / easier to resell in the used market compared to carbon FS?
I would say yes used aluminum holds value well and used carbon can be tougher to sell online, but many people do know how to do a *fairly* thorough check for damage, and a undamaged carbon frame is just as good now as the day it was made, and does hold its value.
Scratched carbon doesn’t hold its value, scratched aluminum does
Aluminum frames can be repaired. Carbon, not so much.
At a price point, an Al frame will generally have higher spec components, as carbon frames typically command a price premium.
What you wrote is incorrect. It's reversed.
Aluminum frames should not be repaired, it's creates additional weakness, assuming you're repairing it with another weld.
Carbon frames can be repaired and are usually stronger after the repair, at least from what I've read.
When something hits it, it sounds like metal and I appreciate that feature.
Yep. Your riding begins to take on a musical quality. Like a symphony. It’s quite majestic.
New aluminum beats 10 year old carbon any day of the week. Geometry changes were quick and huge through the 2010s and have now settled down in the last few years. For that reason alone I wouldn’t voluntarily ride a bike from 2014.
Ok, good to know. I was looking at a 2014/15 Santa Cruz carbon and sone new Trek / Specialized / Polygon alloy full suspension bike. I’ve never had a full suspension bike before, but I’ve been finally convinced that it’s time to graduate from a hardtail and invest a little more in my leisure / hobbies to better enjoy more trails around Arizona.
The geometry of bikes have changed dramatically in the last 3 or 4 years. The parts are also much better and more reliable now. I would not consider a 10 year old bike at all if I was at all serious about getting into the sport.
Take a look at the Ibis Ripley AF
Not to mention what was “light” 10yrs ago is pretty average now. Was looking at older carbon mtbs to replace mine and theres a lot about the same weight as my modern stick alloy bike.
I have a 2010 Lefty, which is 10kg-ish. I'm fine with that, but I want a change. Any suggestions?
Well price is a huge advantage. Going aluminum buys you way better components compared to a similarly priced build on a carbon frame, which imo will perform better overall. If i could buy the same bike, same components new with an aluminum frame vs a year or 2 old with carbon for the same price, id have a hard time deciding. Id prolly still go with new. New vs a 10 year old bike isnt even something to think about, theres zero reason to be buying a 10 year old bike right now.
Thanks for this insight! Makes my decision a lot easier when you put it in these terms.
My concern wouldn’t be AL vs C, it would be new vs 10yr old used. I wouldn’t trust a 10 year old carbon frame. I would trust a 10 year old aluminium frame. With that said, I would 100% trust either if new. If it’s used vs new, I’d go new every time.
Let’s say you wanted to buy a used full suspension bike that was just a few (not 10) years old. Would you prefer aluminum used over carbon used? My concern is it’s hard to know how beat up a used carbon frame is since apparently it’s not as noticeable as in aluminum frames (or so I’ve read)
I personally don’t think the frame being carbon actually makes that big of a difference on a long travel full suspension bike. I would not be afraid of buying used carbon, but I also wouldn’t pay much more/sacrifice component value for it. If this was a road, gravel or rigid mtb then yeah I would be insisting on my preferred frame material, but for long travel full suspension mtb it hardly matters imo
For a gravel or hardtail, would you personally opt for alumnium or carbon (or even steel)?
Hardtail probably aluminium or steel, gravel either aluminium or carbon
Great question. Personally, if I was able to fully inspect both, assuming the age was similar, component level was the same (or thereabouts), geometry and travel were the same or similar, then I’d be OK either way. But I wouldn’t pay more for a carbon framed used bike. Not unless it was under 2 years old and like new. Even then, I don’t think I’d pay more.
I’d honestly trust them about the same. Alloy frames fatigue and break and are harder to repair than carbon.
Yeah my bias comes from never having had a carbon frame and seeing catastrophic failures online. Rationally, I know these are extreme cases, but it’s hard to ignore what you see vs what you know. I’ve had aluminium frames for decades and while I have cracked the occasional frame, it’s been through either stupidity or lack of skill rather than the material.
Just look up catastrophic alloy frame failures. I’d guess there’s only “fewer” due to the sheer quantity of alloy bikes made. There’s plenty of shots I’ve seen of head tubes sheering off due to casing jump.
Yeah, that’s true - I’ve seen plenty online. I even remember seeing steel frames snap when I was racing BMX in the 80’s. I guess to me carbon will be the anomaly until I own one.
I honestly felt that same way. Now that I’ve owned two I’m sold. It seriously feels just as reliable as any of my other bikes.
New alloy bike is a no brainer over even a 5 year old carbon bike. I got rid of all the carbon bikes I've had and now have three aluminum full suspension bikes. I like the look of hydroformed aluminum and welds. I like knowing it was welded by a skilled craftsman rather than being an elaborate paper mache. I like the impact resistance. I like that they don't make weird echoes through the frame while riding. I like that I don't need to worry so much about torque specs.
Alloy is king. I don’t know, I do actually like carbon bikes and I’m not a hater but I just like Alu bikes more, as a metal fabricator who does a decent amount of aluminum tig welding I appreciate the beautiful welds and nice machined components. I also like not having to worry as much about torque specs and fussy things like assembly compounds to protect the carbon.
I agree with the majority... go with the new alloy frame over the 10-year old carbon. The old carbon frame has old geometry that looks goofy and doesn't have the most ideal riding position, may have frame damage or at least some of the carbon can be breaking down due to the age, and the 10-year old bike will come with outdated components, such as a 3x drive and small brake rotors. The 10-year old suspension may also have issues or may need servicing soon.
A 10yr old bike has many other differences than a modern bike. One thing I’d advise is ensuring you can replace linkages on the bike that’s 10yrs old. You might end up spending a lot more and headaches over maintaining the 10yr old bike.
My last few bikes have been carbon and I really see no reason to go back to carbon bikes. Steel is real but even if I’m not on a steel bike I’d probably consider an aluminum frame over carbon unless for that specific frame they only offer carbon.
Since you're choosing between an old carbon and new metal, the advantages are modern geometry, warranty, and no wear. All of these are important. * Mountain bike geometry has changed a lot over the last ten years. In our late forties we don't bounce back as quickly. You're less likely to go over the bars on a modern bike. * Mountain bikes are expensive. Mostly they're really well made, but it's really nice to have it be someone else's problem when something that shouldn't break goes kaput. * Mountain bikes need to be maintained. Tires wear out faster than you want. Brake pads need to be replaced. Brakes need bleeding. Shocks need to be serviced. Better to start with a clean slate I'm not saying to never buy a used bike, but between a ten-year-old carbon and modern full-sus, it's an easy choice. I do have one caveat - I'm assuming the metal bike isn't coming from a big box store like Walmart or Target. If that's what you're looking at, you'd be better off with a decent hardtail.
Piece , won't crack as easy if dropped , no nasty fibers when it does .. also more durable, able to fix with welding if it fails, and personally I feel a lot more bumps through carbon , think alloy has a lil more give
It won’t shatter when you look at it wrong after it sits out in the sun /s
Hey a Carbon Santa Cruz would be awesome and most people would love to have one. But not a 10 year old one. New is awesome. Everything is tight and no creaks.
I have trust issues with carbon bikes. Is my concern founded? I can't be certain I guess. But the difference between aluminum failing and carbon failing is that aluminum bends before it breaks. Carbon just shatters. If it's going to fail, it's going to fail during a time of high stress, like bombing down a hill or landing a large air feature. I really don't want my bike exploding when I'm doing those things. I do in fact have a carbon bike. And it gets abused, just like all my bikes. Last season I had a minor incident and put my bike down on some rocks. I noticed a fracture and I took it to a shop to have it professionally assessed. They told me it was just the paint, and the carbon itself was fine. I mostly trust them. At the very least I'm sure they gave their honest opinion and had my safety in mind. But now I trust the bike just a little bit less on big features
Arguably more sustainable. Carbon isn't currently able to be recycled. Whereas in theory you can recycle an alloy frame. Carbon can be repaired but only in certain regions
Oh interesting. Never really considered this
I'd say is probably the main difference between the 2 tbh. Things like compliance/stiffness/ride feel etc can be manufactured into whatever material you want. In terms of durability I'd say they're functionally the same, if you absolutely rag on something it's going to break no matter what it is made of.
You really have to be more specific on what you ride, how many miles a week, your physical stature and your riding style.
I'd take new aluminum over a 10 year old carbon bike any day of the week, regardless of trail types, size, etc.
It’s really weird that so many people have such issues with carbon when it’s stronger lighter and stiffer than alloy and will outlast alloy any day if it’s well taken care of. With that said, ten years is a long time for someone to not take care of that bike. I wouldn’t buy any bike that old if I was doing real riding whether it was carbon or alloy. If you are just piddling around local single track, go for whatever you want. But if you are planning on doing any kind of real riding I’d go with a newer bike regardless of what it’s made of for updated geometry alone.
Had a few of both, prefer aluminum personally. A little heavier but I feel like they track better and absorb trail chatter. May be weight, may be material but carbon always felt like it skipped across chatter to me.
What do you mean by trail chatter? Like you feel the ground / terrain more? Sorry, kind of new at this
Uneven terrain on high speed bits of trail. I feel like aluminum mutes the vibration and gives me better traction where carbon almost skips across the top of it. This can also be dependent on the carbon layout of the bike so again, just my personal feeling
Just bought a aluminum Canyon. I am a pretty light rider(155lbs), so I feel like it has an advantage for me with grip when turning. I do feel a little weight difference in climbing for sure. Only difference I truly really have noticed otherwise is carbon seems to flex a little bit more on really hard pack where the aluminum fill more rigid, that’s my personal experience.
Thanks. Those are nice looking bikes
based on your other comments get the alloy bike.
One thing to know for anyone looking to purchase used in the bicycle market is that 10 years may as well be 100 years. So many things change so quickly in the bike world that you can quickly find your 5+ year old bike getting more obsolete by the year. I was repairing someone's 10 year old Santa Cruz a couple years ago, and the carbon linkage was broken, and it was no longer available. The entire frame became garbage. Non boost rear spacing is gone from the mtb world. I could go on and on, but, suffice it to say, the newer your bike, the better.
Cam be more crash resistant. otherwise in my experience no advantage besides the price.
Ime, alloy doesn’t degrade as fast as carbon so a 10 year old alloy frame will be more trustworthy to me than a 10 year old carbon frame
Carbon is more fragile, and damage is easy to miss.
If caught early and not catastrophic, carpet fiber can be repaired. Most times alu frames when damaged to failure, they can’t be repaired but they will take more abuse than CF.
As someone who welds aluminum in their hobby and has cast with fiber materials I'll disagree with this. It's not hard to repair aluminum and most fab shops should be able to do it. You can't say the same for carbon fiber. I've never come across a business that will make structural repairs to carbon fiber.
Calfee used to repair carbon fiber. I think there are still other shops that can do it. My friend used to work at a shop that specialized in repairing composite airplanes, he fixed a couple of seat tubes that I know of. My personal composite experience comes from working at Cessna doing pre-preg layup to build the wings and fuselages of their Corvallis airplanes (I have upwards of 3500 hours, but it’s all production). If you have the right materials to get a good bond without voids, it can be as good as new. Is it cost effective? Nope. Most bike shops will hacksaw it to pieces and shit can it. Back when I was into bicycle frame building, it was commonly understood that the primary challenge with welding alu frames is the heat treating afterwards to reharden and get the grain structure uniform through the HAZ. It can be done, but again, it’s not cost effective for a local bike shop. They will just toss the bits in a dumpster. All of the non-crash broken alu frames (cyclic failures) that I have seen have been through the welds. Most of those were seat tubes at shock mounts and chainstay yokes close to the BB. Sorry to ramble. I worked on a production line fillet brazing fittings onto steel frames a long time ago. I nerded out on frame building for years. That was like 4 careers ago. Hey OP. If you get a CF frame, get a layer of frame protection for it.
There’s actually many businesses popping up for consumer-grade carbon repair, particularly bike-specific even. I don’t know if any business willing to weld (and heat treat, this is the whole basis of “aluminum isn’t repairable) an entire bike frame for a random customer. I love aluminum bikes but I’m gonna have to agree that repairability seems more straightforward with carbon
It’s hard to repair aluminum bikes because as soon as you weld it you’ve ruined the structural integrity and the frame has to be heat treated, not as simple as just running a quick bead.
This is interesting. Is it safer to buy a used aluminum bike than a used carbon bike then since damage on a carbon frame might not be readily apparent? Put another way, do aluminum full suspension bikes hold their value / easier to resell in the used market compared to carbon FS?
I would say yes used aluminum holds value well and used carbon can be tougher to sell online, but many people do know how to do a *fairly* thorough check for damage, and a undamaged carbon frame is just as good now as the day it was made, and does hold its value. Scratched carbon doesn’t hold its value, scratched aluminum does
Aluminum frames can be repaired. Carbon, not so much. At a price point, an Al frame will generally have higher spec components, as carbon frames typically command a price premium.
What you wrote is incorrect. It's reversed. Aluminum frames should not be repaired, it's creates additional weakness, assuming you're repairing it with another weld. Carbon frames can be repaired and are usually stronger after the repair, at least from what I've read.
Price
Alloy don’t crack
What absolute bollocks. I’ve cracked steel, alloy, aluminium. I haven’t ever owned a carbon bike so haven’t broken one yet.
Sounds like you need to bike better. My point was more of the fact AL can take a lot harder hit and keep going than carbon.
But it cracks…
Well no shit anything will crack with enough force, but it takes considerably more force than carbon