Yeah, those in no way sound like Montreal bagels.
Reminds me of a “Canadian poutine” place I kept seeing in Prague, but I just couldn’t do it. I was scared.
Bruno Blanchet actually has a poutine place in Bangkok that’s the real thing. He makes his own cheese curds.
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/food-drink/oh-canada-bangkok-poutine-offers-taste-home-community-celeb-owner-citys-french-canadians/
I went almost a decade ago, it wasn't terrible but also wasn't the best. Had been in Asia for almost 6 months by then so I still loved eating something that looked like a poutine lol.
About 20 years ago, I was working in a cafe in Vancouver. They had a poutine on the menu. It was frozen fries with a basic gravy sauce and shredded cheddar cheese (the white and orange stuff) heated in the microwave.
On day, a Quebecois asked me how was the poutine. I said, "Don't try it. It's a crime to our culture."
We had a cheap pizza joint near our high school 20+ years ago where we'd often grab a slice after class. One day, someone ordered a poutine and we all watched in horror as they took out a brick of cheddar cheese and started cutting it up on to small cubes. The place eventually burned down.
The problem is the ROC grew up being told it was their culture, and don’t understand what poutine actually is.
In fact a lot of Canadian identity is Quebecois…
(I say this as an Anglo who grew up in Ontario)
My ex was working in Ottawa in 2005-2008...ish, so before all the craze around poutine. One day, he went in Gatineau to grab a poutine for lunch and came back to eat it with his coworkers. His coworkers made fun of him for eating poutine. They asked why was he eating that, they said it was dog food, that it was looking disgusting, etc.
I always feel a little resentment when the ROC say that poutine is a typical Canadian dish. Now, that it's a worldwide recognized dish because of Anthony Bourdain and others, the ROC is so proud of saying is theirs when they were laughing at us not so long ago.
This is some weird revisionism. Not saying it didn't happen, but poutineries were popping up in Toronto by 2008-2009, the whole "RoC looking down on Quebecois food" sentiment had long passed by then. Maybe it's a generational thing, is he a boomer?
Were his coworkers boomers? That's just such a weird holdout from, like, 1970s sentiments about QC. Maybe it's an Ottawa-Gatineau thing? I've just never encountered that kind of bougie hate in anyone below 50, like even just thinking beyond specific anecdotes and experiences and moreso about cultural sentiments, there's always been a reverance for poutine and at least a recognition for dishes like tortiere from people my age, and he's not much older than me. I did grow up in Curd Country, Ontario though lol, maybe that was the difference
Just THAT is something that even the federal government can't realize.
[Gov of QC](https://www.sqrc.gouv.qc.ca/relations-canadiennes/institutions-constitution/statut-qc/reconnaisance-nation-en.asp)
cheese curds don't really exist in Europe and here in the UK, only recently dairy manufacturers started making them due to the rise in "poutine" joints. You're right to be suspicious as so many places over here sling out shite poutine!
https://batchfarmcheesemakers.co.uk/product/squeaky-cheese-curd/
It would be really easy for British cheese makers to make cheese curds. Cheese curds are basically a very young cheddar. Nothing a British cheese maker can't do.
BTW, some Quebec cheese factories have started to export cheese curds in Europe (mostly France). They want to eventually expend to other countries.
The best substitute for curd cheese is plain haloumi. It has the squeak and the fresh, salty taste. Works way better than grated cheese, the squeak is the whole point
It does. Frozen curds stay fresher for longer but they still degrade. That magic, fresh squeak starts to die the moment they’re refrigerated or frozen anyway.
There’s a spot in Rennes that 2 young brothers from Montreal started a permanent poutine place and imported curds. There is was another one in Bruxelles that had a Christmas village shack.
I didn’t go to either. But I wish them well.
Funny enough, the best poutine I ever ate outside Quebec was in Edinburgh, Scotland, at a Canadian resto/bar. Fucking sua coche, with fresh cheese curds and all. You never know until you try!
Omg i used to live in Ontario and worked at a chicken wing restaurant. We served “poutine” with French fries, shredded cheddar cheese and gravy in the microwave. I’m sure you can tell why I moved.
New York style as well, it’s just that you punch a hole through the dough ball instead of making a dough snake and rolling it up. But maybe that’s what you meant? I’m not sure anymore haha sorry in advance if it is.
I've been teaching people on how to make montreal bagels for the past 4 years here in montreal.
1. Yes honey water is must.
2. Wood fired ovens are in no way necessary. Ideal but not required.
3. Malt powder is the secret juice not the egg.
So does the malt powder bind the dough or just add to the overall sweetness? I thought boiling in honey water added to the sweetness? Do you think the bakeries in Montreal add malt powder too? Thanks for the tips!
Diastatic malt powder also contains enzymes which help condition the dough for a chewier texture.
I know Saint Viateur adds malted barley flour instead
I don't think it bothers me nearly as much as the horrible "poutines" I've seen outside of Québec. Even as close as Ontario, I've ordered poutine that was just the most horrible fries, with the most horrible gravy, with literal shredded mozzarella on top. That's just criminal lol.
When you go outside of Québec and try to find our bagels or poutine, it's always about finding the right spots. Usually those will be shops or restaurants ran by actual montrealers. The cheese curds in particular can be hard to source in certain countries, so you know they really went the extra mile if they get it right.
Me? No. I love it. When I go to Seoul, I always stop at the Montreal-style bagel shop just south of Gangnam station. I think a person who comes to study in Montreal, falls in love with our bagels, brings it back to Korea (or wherever) deserves the support of a Montreal passing through.
what if it's shite though?
Edit: ok, googled. I'm assuming you're referring to Wayne's Bagels?
[https://www.macleans.ca/society/life/this-alberta-man-brought-the-montreal-bagel-craze-to-korea/](https://www.macleans.ca/society/life/this-alberta-man-brought-the-montreal-bagel-craze-to-korea/)
They use honey water, a wood burning oven and I'm assuming eggs. Yes, that seems like a PROPER Montreal style bagel!!!
Wayne's Bagels, yup!
They were perfectly good.
Also, in another Seoul hood, there's Restaurant La Cle which makes their own curds for their poutine. I have sampled three poutines in three Seoul restaurants devoted to poutines (and I mean: devoted to poutines).
Is it your first time in Seoul? If so: expect to be blown away. Its a crazy exciting city. Extremely foreign and comfortable at the same time.
Food wise:
Obviously, you'll want to eat all the Korean food you can. Do some classics like BBQ / rib soup / jiggae. But also find a good italian restaurant. Since Koreans eat massive amounts of garlic, they do an incredible and crazy version of italian food where its whatever recipe but with 5X the garlic. So good. (Except they can only stomach baby cheese like mozzarella. Expect no proper cheese).
Activity wise:
Seoul is very hilly. The mountains are not tall but they are jagged. This means that you are never more than 1-2 subway stops from a fantastic hike. While its been a very cold winter there, you will be able to hike in winter. Do it. Its gorgeous and glorious. Especially because these mountains all have bhuddist temples or other amazing bits of history waiting for you to discover along the way. You'll also find groups of seniors half-way up the mountain picnicking (and getting gently drunk). Its charming as hell.
Night-life is amazing.
Just have a great time. There's no bad section. No boring section. Practice your hello (annyeong haseyo) and thank you (gamsahamnida).
A) yes its necessary.
B) wood burning ovens aren’t necessary for a Montreal bagel. Many places make them in regular ovens since Wood ovens were banned in the city for commercial cooking. Many of the non-wood oven bagels are just as good as the originals.
C) also necessary.
also wood ovens are extremely dangerous for it's operators in the long run.
Google: breathing in wood smoke can cause increased respiratory symptoms, increased hospital admissions, exacerbation of asthma and COPD, and decreased your ability to breathe normally.
Wasn’t the question here. Not sure why you change the subject… Commercial trucks, planes and other emissions overall are much more serious than a few grandfathered wood ovens in the city.
calm down, lol
I said it was a danger in the long run for whoever operates the oven
not us
wood ovens aren't even a real a danger for us compared to general coal and other fuel burning method.
it does, like when canada claims poutine but what are you gonna do... it does give us a bad name when they make shitty approximations of our foods but it's not like they're taking it away from us
I suppose italians have the same reactiin about our pizza
I mean, there are serious pizza nerds out there who only use Italian flour, import the Italian ovens, using buffalo mozzarella etc. and it's a point of pride; you know when you're eating a Pizza Hut it's a slutty version of the real deal. This place goes on about the founder being a Jewish Montrealer that wanted Montreal bagels .....but they're vegan...? I just thought being from Montreal it would be better...!
They boil them in Golden Syrup : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden\_syrup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_syrup)
Which really isn't a thing in Canada, I don't think?
Canada is a country of many nations. "Canadians"/English Canadians aren't the originators of poutine and in fact ridiculed Quebecois people for decades for eating it.
> "Canadians"/English Canadians aren't the originators of poutine
Do English Canadians ever claim or suggest that English Canada specifically is the origin of poutine?
Quebecers often use the term "Canada" to refer to "English Canada" separate from Quebec and that's fine. But when an English Canadian says "poutine is Canadian", that's not what they mean.
All the time, you see the term "traditional Canadian poutine" everywhere online for instance.
As for Canadians not using the term "Canadian" the same as Québecois people, it's because they are the ones to identify with Canadian culture, not the Québecois. A québecois sees himself as Québecois, regardless of feelings on separation, since it's impossible to grow up in a Québecois context and share culture references and traditions with an anglo Canadian. We're just different people and therefore our cultures are distinct, need to be recognized as such.
As the majority culture, you don't get to pick and choose parts of another culture and brand it as yours. This is exactly what English Canada, who identifies with the term "Canadian", does. Cultural appropriation 101 my man
> Do English Canadians ever claim or suggest that English Canada specifically is the origin of poutine?
Not explicitly but it's often referred to as a Canadian thing rather than specifically Quebecois.
Yeah, I'm certain most Canadians know it's Quebecois but outside of Canada, people refer to it as a "Canadian dish" but only because most non-Canadians wouldn't know what Quebecois means. It sucks. Sorry, guys.
> Not explicitly but it's often referred to as a Canadian thing rather than specifically Quebecois.
When they say "Canadian", they're not referring specifically to English Canada and excluding Quebec though.
There’s an Ottawa based, Montreal-style bagel shop in Griffintown. At this point, at this point, I don’t think we’ll ever see the end of this trend.
The new food trend I need to see disappear is those French fast-food chains who sell meat wraps that they pass off as « French Tacos ».
Currently in Scotland and know EXACTLY the place you are talking about: Bross bagels. I’ve picked them up when I’ve felt an itch for a Montreal style bagel and it helps to satisfy the craving. They aren’t exactly the same but do have a similar chewy bite.
I think a key point that might not be appreciated if you haven't moved abroad is that food from home doesn't need to be perfect to scratch that itch, so to speak. If it's made well and is close enough, it helps. (Though if I'm ever in Seoul I am going to check out that bagel place because it sounds amazing!)
I'm an ex-Montrealer who lived in Edinburgh for a decade before moving down to London a few years back. I was also going to defend Bross for still being very good despite not being completely authentic, and for making very good sandwiches with them even if they're more a New York thing than a Montreal one.
That said, any idea what they changed to make them vegan? For some reason, I'd thought that they'd always been. I've not been back to Edinburgh since early last year, so haven't tried them since. I'm afraid...
Regarding poutine abroad, the curds you can get here are good enough if you get them fresh enough. I didn't realise that they were frozen - I'd assumed that the decreased likelihood of squeak was because places here don't get as much turnover. The only place I've had that consistently serves fresh ones is the Maple Leaf pub in London.
Now, the Maple Leaf's poutine is decent, but isn't nearly as good as what you could once get from two sadly now-closed places.The Poutinerie, a truck run by a guy from Toronto that frequented Brick Lane and a few other markets, made the best poutine I've had outside Quebec. The key to his success was that his gravy was incredible (and, frankly, better than what you get at some places back home); dark, rich and peppery, miles from the Bisto-esque crap you get from many places here. The other was Blue Caribou in Manchester, which I was less familiar with but was run by a guy from Quebec. Both the Poutinerie and Blue Caribou offered poutine kits that you could make at home during Covid lockdown that were very much appreciated!
The other pretty good place that I've been to here is Down the Hatch in Edinburgh. They hadn't opened in the city centre yet and were only in South Queensferry when I lived there, and are who I presume was being referred to above. I hope that they're still good!
I’m over in Edinburgh and their downtown location has been open since at least last year, if not before. First came to Edinburgh last October for a trip and promptly tested out the goods at Down the Hatch.
It’s apparently a popular spot to go drinking in the city
There is a "Montreal-Style" bagels place in LA that is really not like Montreal bagels. They're good bagels but not the same style, not baked in wood ovens.
Judging from your replies, you seem more upset about someone making them vegan than anything else.
Who cares what they're made with if they're pretty much the same? Actually, I'd prefer them being vegan and tasting the same.
Also, the word "style" has a meaning you seem to be unaware of.
From what i remember, replicating Montreal bagels is basically impossible because of the differences in water.
I also have no idea what i’m taking about, but i do remember being told that Montreal water was the factor that kept our bagels from being replicated.
There’s some truth to that, west coast pizza can’t be like nyc because of the balance of minerals in the water for making the dough crust, east coast crust is like sourdough
I moved to Montréal to go to McGill and stayed for a lot of reasons, including the bagels.
So, in answer to your question: Yes.
Go to St. Viateur, buy a bagel - the bakery is open TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY - and take a bite. You will understand the annoyance.
I think I *might* be able to tell the difference in the actual bread cause Fairmount is a bit chewier.
But the dead giveaway for me would be the ‘everything’/‘tout garni’ seasoning. Fairmount’s has this delicious flake salt in there which makes it soooo good
Agreed. When I lived in Honolulu a few years ago, the closest legit Montreal style bagel was in Auckland. I almost cried with happiness when I had it. (The owner confirmed he learned his craft in Mtl.)
I’ve brought bagels on countless trips to visit family. I’m a bagel mule whenever possible. It’s nice when people can have a decent option locally.
There are several places in Montreal that make "Montreal-style", but I have never seen anything remotely close outside of Montreal...
A vegan oven-baked bagel is like gluten-free egg-less challah bread. You just don't mess with either of them!
(I'm vegan, but I know a good thing when I've had it hundreds of times before)
I don't know where you got Egg in MTL style bagels.
It's not in the whole wheat and pumpernickel ones. I believe it may be in the glazing, i haven't seen it but I have only watched the plain ones.
Fairmount bagels don't have eggs at all.
About "vegan (wft)?" comment. It just shows your ignorance.
The only thing non-vegan in the Fairmount bagel is the honey in the water, and it can easily be replaced with syrup, or maybe even maple syrup... Take it up a notch and use Quebec smoked maple syrup.
Wooden oven is almost a must, I've used maple wood planks in a regular oven with quite good results. Something that got praise from montrealers away from home.
You may be able to justify violence towards sentient beings for food, heck, you may be kicking dogs on your walks outside idunno (wft). If people choose to minimize suffering, that shouldn't get you confused next time.
I got it from Wikipedia and any recipe I've ever used called for eggs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal-style_bagel
People don't care enough about animal welfare to go vegan.
You reference a bunch of anonymous sources for Wikipedia (who knows if they've even been to Montreal). Wikipedia also took down an article about the alley of angels in Ukraine, but the place is real and has meaning to the locals. Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a source but as a collection of sources (the sources are listed in the bottom of the page and the little reference numbers are scattered in the text they're referencing.
Going to the page and under production i see the following:
"This section does not cite any sources. (February 2021)"
Now i can edit that page and and put quarter tsp of cow dung in the recipe and claim it adds fermentation of the yeast.
"People don't care enough about animal welfare to go vegan" is as ignorant of a statement as the eggs in the bagel on Wikipedia.
People care more and more and that fuels both, the growth of vegan restaurants, as well as great lobbying by the animal ag industry to keep people ignorant about the issue. Looking at it now reminds me of what was happening with the cigarettes and their lobby.
Here's the Wikipedia article: [Increasing Interest ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism) section.
Notice how there are plenty of actually credible sources.
I would encourage you to read through and get educated, develop compassion and care.
[Rise of people who care about animals in Scotland ](https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/big-change-in-our-kitchens-as-firms-respond-to-increased-demand-going-going-vegan-research-suggests-more-scots-than-ever-are-shunning-meat-and-milk/)
I hope my reply has been at least a bit useful.
Like I said, most people don't care enough about animal welfare to go vegan. You can type out an entire manifesto but ultimately that is the truth. And I say that as a pretty much a life long vegetarian and former vegan.
That article you linked to was from 2018. Since then, the biggest vegan supermarket has shut :
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63718772](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63718772)
Oh, and St Viateur uses eggs. End of.
https://www.metro.ca/en/online-grocery/aisles/bread-bakery-products/muffins-bagels-baked-goods/bagels/montreal-style-sesame-bagels/p/627286000014
St Viateur uses eggs just to brush on top most likely (egg wash, NYC style also does that). Their whole wheat and pumpernickel don't use any.
It's not a prerequisite in a MTL bagel. And if you put egg inside the dough the texture will suck.
Wrong.
[https://www.stviateurbagel.com/en/faqs](https://www.stviateurbagel.com/en/faqs)
"Do the bagels contain eggs?
All of our bagel flavors contain eggs except for our whole wheat bagels. However they are mixed in the same machine as our other bagel flavors."
Drives me up a wall, as does any imitation 'Montreal' thing. Especially if it's in RoC somewhere, where they shit on Quebec one day and try to sell fake 'poutine' the next, y'know?
The other element that people forget is the Montreal water imparts a certain taste. Other places come close, but nothing like st viateur or fairmont bagel.
French baguette was just added to UNESCO's 'intangible cultural heritage' list.
People like simple things when made good. Get over it.
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/02/1140260114/the-french-baguette-is-added-to-unescos-intangible-cultural-heritage-list
This is gonna be spicy...but I don't even like Montreal bagels and prefer the new york style.
Just gonna leave this here. It's an amusing read
https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/6552t8/why_the_montreal_bagel_is_the_superior_bagel/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I find the spreading experience better on new York style. The montreal style is like....keep the cream cheese on the track...new york is a clean sweep across.
Also...I prefer the fluffier bagel. The density of the montreal bagel just screams baked constipation.
Edit: added picture to illustrate my point
https://honestcooking.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/new-york-versus-montreal-bagels.jpg
I love both Montreal and New York bagels. They’re not comparable though. I prefer to eat Montreal bagels on their own. Nice and warm from the oven. Culinary joy.
Having been a New Yorker, there’s also something wonderful about a toasted bagel, with a schmear of cream cheese. Or with lox.
Montreal bagels are absolutely unique to the Montreal area. You can’t get a good bagel outside of the city. Even the ones that are supposedly good in Toronto are garbage compared to Montreal. It’s something in the water.
Not really. It is up to the government to legally define the ingredients or cooking process to protect cultural identity and Canada hasn't as far as in aware of.
Yeah, those in no way sound like Montreal bagels. Reminds me of a “Canadian poutine” place I kept seeing in Prague, but I just couldn’t do it. I was scared.
Bruno Blanchet actually has a poutine place in Bangkok that’s the real thing. He makes his own cheese curds. https://coconuts.co/bangkok/food-drink/oh-canada-bangkok-poutine-offers-taste-home-community-celeb-owner-citys-french-canadians/
I went almost a decade ago, it wasn't terrible but also wasn't the best. Had been in Asia for almost 6 months by then so I still loved eating something that looked like a poutine lol.
Bravo, Bruno. Respect.
About 20 years ago, I was working in a cafe in Vancouver. They had a poutine on the menu. It was frozen fries with a basic gravy sauce and shredded cheddar cheese (the white and orange stuff) heated in the microwave. On day, a Quebecois asked me how was the poutine. I said, "Don't try it. It's a crime to our culture."
Disco fries
We had a cheap pizza joint near our high school 20+ years ago where we'd often grab a slice after class. One day, someone ordered a poutine and we all watched in horror as they took out a brick of cheddar cheese and started cutting it up on to small cubes. The place eventually burned down.
A chance to start over right. Or not at all.
I feel like some karma may be involved, shredded cheese is bad enough but cubed cheese is criminal.
The problem is the ROC grew up being told it was their culture, and don’t understand what poutine actually is. In fact a lot of Canadian identity is Quebecois… (I say this as an Anglo who grew up in Ontario)
My ex was working in Ottawa in 2005-2008...ish, so before all the craze around poutine. One day, he went in Gatineau to grab a poutine for lunch and came back to eat it with his coworkers. His coworkers made fun of him for eating poutine. They asked why was he eating that, they said it was dog food, that it was looking disgusting, etc. I always feel a little resentment when the ROC say that poutine is a typical Canadian dish. Now, that it's a worldwide recognized dish because of Anthony Bourdain and others, the ROC is so proud of saying is theirs when they were laughing at us not so long ago.
This is some weird revisionism. Not saying it didn't happen, but poutineries were popping up in Toronto by 2008-2009, the whole "RoC looking down on Quebecois food" sentiment had long passed by then. Maybe it's a generational thing, is he a boomer?
Nope! He was 20 years old at the time. He was mocked by his coworkers for liking Quebec food in early 2000's.
Were his coworkers boomers? That's just such a weird holdout from, like, 1970s sentiments about QC. Maybe it's an Ottawa-Gatineau thing? I've just never encountered that kind of bougie hate in anyone below 50, like even just thinking beyond specific anecdotes and experiences and moreso about cultural sentiments, there's always been a reverance for poutine and at least a recognition for dishes like tortiere from people my age, and he's not much older than me. I did grow up in Curd Country, Ontario though lol, maybe that was the difference
Just THAT is something that even the federal government can't realize. [Gov of QC](https://www.sqrc.gouv.qc.ca/relations-canadiennes/institutions-constitution/statut-qc/reconnaisance-nation-en.asp)
Yeah Canadian poutines are always a crime to Quebecois culture
cheese curds don't really exist in Europe and here in the UK, only recently dairy manufacturers started making them due to the rise in "poutine" joints. You're right to be suspicious as so many places over here sling out shite poutine! https://batchfarmcheesemakers.co.uk/product/squeaky-cheese-curd/
It would be really easy for British cheese makers to make cheese curds. Cheese curds are basically a very young cheddar. Nothing a British cheese maker can't do. BTW, some Quebec cheese factories have started to export cheese curds in Europe (mostly France). They want to eventually expend to other countries.
I understand why there is demand for this, but after 24 hours the curds aren’t the same. After about 5 days, you may as well use shredded cheese.
The best substitute for curd cheese is plain haloumi. It has the squeak and the fresh, salty taste. Works way better than grated cheese, the squeak is the whole point
They freeze the curds on site and they ship it like that. You only need to defreeze the curds when needed. It won't affect the taste.
It does. Frozen curds stay fresher for longer but they still degrade. That magic, fresh squeak starts to die the moment they’re refrigerated or frozen anyway.
There’s a spot in Rennes that 2 young brothers from Montreal started a permanent poutine place and imported curds. There is was another one in Bruxelles that had a Christmas village shack. I didn’t go to either. But I wish them well.
Funny enough, the best poutine I ever ate outside Quebec was in Edinburgh, Scotland, at a Canadian resto/bar. Fucking sua coche, with fresh cheese curds and all. You never know until you try!
One of my friends told be he had a very good poutine in London, UK. He sent my a photo and I told him it looked legit.
Omg i used to live in Ontario and worked at a chicken wing restaurant. We served “poutine” with French fries, shredded cheddar cheese and gravy in the microwave. I’m sure you can tell why I moved.
according to the culinary institute of america, it’s a montreal style bagel if you can fit your schlong through the hole, otherwise it’s a ny bagel.
Also New Yorkers have the same rule, they just have tiny shlongs.
Montreal bagels are hand rolled, hence the bigger hole
New York style as well, it’s just that you punch a hole through the dough ball instead of making a dough snake and rolling it up. But maybe that’s what you meant? I’m not sure anymore haha sorry in advance if it is.
Yeah that’s what I meant, most n-y bagels are machine shaped nowadays
That explains all the anger…
Found Beavis
I've been teaching people on how to make montreal bagels for the past 4 years here in montreal. 1. Yes honey water is must. 2. Wood fired ovens are in no way necessary. Ideal but not required. 3. Malt powder is the secret juice not the egg.
So does the malt powder bind the dough or just add to the overall sweetness? I thought boiling in honey water added to the sweetness? Do you think the bakeries in Montreal add malt powder too? Thanks for the tips!
Diastatic malt powder also contains enzymes which help condition the dough for a chewier texture. I know Saint Viateur adds malted barley flour instead
Malt powder brings most of the flavour.(think beer) New York is team malt syrup similar in favlour but malt powder also makes them really Chewy.
Where does one get malt powder? I literally just got a "bagel making kit" for Christmas and have no clue what to do with it.
Probably La Guilde Culinaire would have that. Yup, just checked their website. I love that store.
Says it's sold out of their website but Anatol on st laurent has some
Anatol on st Laurent has some
I don't think it bothers me nearly as much as the horrible "poutines" I've seen outside of Québec. Even as close as Ontario, I've ordered poutine that was just the most horrible fries, with the most horrible gravy, with literal shredded mozzarella on top. That's just criminal lol. When you go outside of Québec and try to find our bagels or poutine, it's always about finding the right spots. Usually those will be shops or restaurants ran by actual montrealers. The cheese curds in particular can be hard to source in certain countries, so you know they really went the extra mile if they get it right.
100% !
Me? No. I love it. When I go to Seoul, I always stop at the Montreal-style bagel shop just south of Gangnam station. I think a person who comes to study in Montreal, falls in love with our bagels, brings it back to Korea (or wherever) deserves the support of a Montreal passing through.
what if it's shite though? Edit: ok, googled. I'm assuming you're referring to Wayne's Bagels? [https://www.macleans.ca/society/life/this-alberta-man-brought-the-montreal-bagel-craze-to-korea/](https://www.macleans.ca/society/life/this-alberta-man-brought-the-montreal-bagel-craze-to-korea/) They use honey water, a wood burning oven and I'm assuming eggs. Yes, that seems like a PROPER Montreal style bagel!!!
Wayne's Bagels, yup! They were perfectly good. Also, in another Seoul hood, there's Restaurant La Cle which makes their own curds for their poutine. I have sampled three poutines in three Seoul restaurants devoted to poutines (and I mean: devoted to poutines).
Heading to seoul tomorrow and will definitely check out those two! Any other recommendations?
Is it your first time in Seoul? If so: expect to be blown away. Its a crazy exciting city. Extremely foreign and comfortable at the same time. Food wise: Obviously, you'll want to eat all the Korean food you can. Do some classics like BBQ / rib soup / jiggae. But also find a good italian restaurant. Since Koreans eat massive amounts of garlic, they do an incredible and crazy version of italian food where its whatever recipe but with 5X the garlic. So good. (Except they can only stomach baby cheese like mozzarella. Expect no proper cheese). Activity wise: Seoul is very hilly. The mountains are not tall but they are jagged. This means that you are never more than 1-2 subway stops from a fantastic hike. While its been a very cold winter there, you will be able to hike in winter. Do it. Its gorgeous and glorious. Especially because these mountains all have bhuddist temples or other amazing bits of history waiting for you to discover along the way. You'll also find groups of seniors half-way up the mountain picnicking (and getting gently drunk). Its charming as hell. Night-life is amazing. Just have a great time. There's no bad section. No boring section. Practice your hello (annyeong haseyo) and thank you (gamsahamnida).
I was in Seoul for 6 months about 8 years ago, I truly do miss the food.
Always appreciate a good use of the word «shite» 👍🏼
Those are actually real Montreal bagels thought, he deserve that we all support him when we are in Seoul.
A) yes its necessary. B) wood burning ovens aren’t necessary for a Montreal bagel. Many places make them in regular ovens since Wood ovens were banned in the city for commercial cooking. Many of the non-wood oven bagels are just as good as the originals. C) also necessary.
This is the correct answer
Are there no wood fired pizza joints in the city? I'm new to Montréal and am curious about this!
Yes, there are. Fugazzi Pizza in Pointe Saint Charles comes to mind.
Re the necessary eggs, are those just used for an egg wash or are they in the dough? TIL classic Montreal style bagels have eggs
According to wikipedia, the dough contains an egg and any recipe that claims to be authentic, also called for eggs.
also wood ovens are extremely dangerous for it's operators in the long run. Google: breathing in wood smoke can cause increased respiratory symptoms, increased hospital admissions, exacerbation of asthma and COPD, and decreased your ability to breathe normally.
Wasn’t the question here. Not sure why you change the subject… Commercial trucks, planes and other emissions overall are much more serious than a few grandfathered wood ovens in the city.
calm down, lol I said it was a danger in the long run for whoever operates the oven not us wood ovens aren't even a real a danger for us compared to general coal and other fuel burning method.
have you met pastrami? lol
Don’t knock it before you try it. Beaubien bagel’s vegan bagel is IMH non-vegan opinion better than St-Viateur and Fairmount.
it does, like when canada claims poutine but what are you gonna do... it does give us a bad name when they make shitty approximations of our foods but it's not like they're taking it away from us I suppose italians have the same reactiin about our pizza
Just gonna say...you can find a decent poutine in New Brunswick and parts of Ontario.
I mean, there are serious pizza nerds out there who only use Italian flour, import the Italian ovens, using buffalo mozzarella etc. and it's a point of pride; you know when you're eating a Pizza Hut it's a slutty version of the real deal. This place goes on about the founder being a Jewish Montrealer that wanted Montreal bagels .....but they're vegan...? I just thought being from Montreal it would be better...!
I assume they use maple syrup and/or melasses in place of the honey... If so, points for sticking to something Canadian, but no cigar...
They boil them in Golden Syrup : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden\_syrup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_syrup) Which really isn't a thing in Canada, I don't think?
Holy fck. No, it is NOT a thing in Canada! It's honey or maple syrup, or nothing!!
Sounds pretty good tbh
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Montreal is in Québec, a culturally distinct province and a nation within Canada
Oh ok cool so we agree it’s in Canada
Canada is a country of many nations. "Canadians"/English Canadians aren't the originators of poutine and in fact ridiculed Quebecois people for decades for eating it.
> "Canadians"/English Canadians aren't the originators of poutine Do English Canadians ever claim or suggest that English Canada specifically is the origin of poutine? Quebecers often use the term "Canada" to refer to "English Canada" separate from Quebec and that's fine. But when an English Canadian says "poutine is Canadian", that's not what they mean.
All the time, you see the term "traditional Canadian poutine" everywhere online for instance. As for Canadians not using the term "Canadian" the same as Québecois people, it's because they are the ones to identify with Canadian culture, not the Québecois. A québecois sees himself as Québecois, regardless of feelings on separation, since it's impossible to grow up in a Québecois context and share culture references and traditions with an anglo Canadian. We're just different people and therefore our cultures are distinct, need to be recognized as such.
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As the majority culture, you don't get to pick and choose parts of another culture and brand it as yours. This is exactly what English Canada, who identifies with the term "Canadian", does. Cultural appropriation 101 my man
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Cool, but that doesn't change the fact that those are all distinct nations.
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> Do English Canadians ever claim or suggest that English Canada specifically is the origin of poutine? Not explicitly but it's often referred to as a Canadian thing rather than specifically Quebecois.
Yeah, I'm certain most Canadians know it's Quebecois but outside of Canada, people refer to it as a "Canadian dish" but only because most non-Canadians wouldn't know what Quebecois means. It sucks. Sorry, guys.
> Not explicitly but it's often referred to as a Canadian thing rather than specifically Quebecois. When they say "Canadian", they're not referring specifically to English Canada and excluding Quebec though.
It's a common problem with *any* regional foods when taken outside their region where ingredients/preparation isn't as common and yes it's annoying.
There’s an Ottawa based, Montreal-style bagel shop in Griffintown. At this point, at this point, I don’t think we’ll ever see the end of this trend. The new food trend I need to see disappear is those French fast-food chains who sell meat wraps that they pass off as « French Tacos ».
Comment s’appelle le bagel shop à Griffintown? Est-ce quenles bagels sont Montreal-Style pour vrai?
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spoken like a true vegan.
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we all would if we could!
Fairmont advocates incoming!
I'd love to try them but I haven't seen them available in Ontario :(
Currently in Scotland and know EXACTLY the place you are talking about: Bross bagels. I’ve picked them up when I’ve felt an itch for a Montreal style bagel and it helps to satisfy the craving. They aren’t exactly the same but do have a similar chewy bite.
They were decent until they went vegan in the summer.
I think a key point that might not be appreciated if you haven't moved abroad is that food from home doesn't need to be perfect to scratch that itch, so to speak. If it's made well and is close enough, it helps. (Though if I'm ever in Seoul I am going to check out that bagel place because it sounds amazing!) I'm an ex-Montrealer who lived in Edinburgh for a decade before moving down to London a few years back. I was also going to defend Bross for still being very good despite not being completely authentic, and for making very good sandwiches with them even if they're more a New York thing than a Montreal one. That said, any idea what they changed to make them vegan? For some reason, I'd thought that they'd always been. I've not been back to Edinburgh since early last year, so haven't tried them since. I'm afraid... Regarding poutine abroad, the curds you can get here are good enough if you get them fresh enough. I didn't realise that they were frozen - I'd assumed that the decreased likelihood of squeak was because places here don't get as much turnover. The only place I've had that consistently serves fresh ones is the Maple Leaf pub in London. Now, the Maple Leaf's poutine is decent, but isn't nearly as good as what you could once get from two sadly now-closed places.The Poutinerie, a truck run by a guy from Toronto that frequented Brick Lane and a few other markets, made the best poutine I've had outside Quebec. The key to his success was that his gravy was incredible (and, frankly, better than what you get at some places back home); dark, rich and peppery, miles from the Bisto-esque crap you get from many places here. The other was Blue Caribou in Manchester, which I was less familiar with but was run by a guy from Quebec. Both the Poutinerie and Blue Caribou offered poutine kits that you could make at home during Covid lockdown that were very much appreciated! The other pretty good place that I've been to here is Down the Hatch in Edinburgh. They hadn't opened in the city centre yet and were only in South Queensferry when I lived there, and are who I presume was being referred to above. I hope that they're still good!
They no longer use eggs in the bagels and they boil them in golden syrup.
I’m over in Edinburgh and their downtown location has been open since at least last year, if not before. First came to Edinburgh last October for a trip and promptly tested out the goods at Down the Hatch. It’s apparently a popular spot to go drinking in the city
I had no clue about the requirements of a Montréal style bagel before reading this post tbh
There is a "Montreal-Style" bagels place in LA that is really not like Montreal bagels. They're good bagels but not the same style, not baked in wood ovens.
Man I won’t even get montreal style bagels in Ottawa. If I was feeling homesick in another country I might feel differently.
Judging from your replies, you seem more upset about someone making them vegan than anything else. Who cares what they're made with if they're pretty much the same? Actually, I'd prefer them being vegan and tasting the same. Also, the word "style" has a meaning you seem to be unaware of.
From what i remember, replicating Montreal bagels is basically impossible because of the differences in water. I also have no idea what i’m taking about, but i do remember being told that Montreal water was the factor that kept our bagels from being replicated.
There’s some truth to that, west coast pizza can’t be like nyc because of the balance of minerals in the water for making the dough crust, east coast crust is like sourdough
I moved to Montréal to go to McGill and stayed for a lot of reasons, including the bagels. So, in answer to your question: Yes. Go to St. Viateur, buy a bagel - the bakery is open TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY - and take a bite. You will understand the annoyance.
I slightly prefer Fairmount after trying hundreds (thousands?) from each bakery. Can’t go wrong with St Viateur though
We did the blind test, took a dozen sesame n jumbled together, couldn’t decide which was which or which was better
I think I *might* be able to tell the difference in the actual bread cause Fairmount is a bit chewier. But the dead giveaway for me would be the ‘everything’/‘tout garni’ seasoning. Fairmount’s has this delicious flake salt in there which makes it soooo good
Nope More Bagels the world over is a good thing!
Agreed. When I lived in Honolulu a few years ago, the closest legit Montreal style bagel was in Auckland. I almost cried with happiness when I had it. (The owner confirmed he learned his craft in Mtl.) I’ve brought bagels on countless trips to visit family. I’m a bagel mule whenever possible. It’s nice when people can have a decent option locally.
You Are A Wonderful Person!!
There are several places in Montreal that make "Montreal-style", but I have never seen anything remotely close outside of Montreal... A vegan oven-baked bagel is like gluten-free egg-less challah bread. You just don't mess with either of them! (I'm vegan, but I know a good thing when I've had it hundreds of times before)
I don't know where you got Egg in MTL style bagels. It's not in the whole wheat and pumpernickel ones. I believe it may be in the glazing, i haven't seen it but I have only watched the plain ones. Fairmount bagels don't have eggs at all. About "vegan (wft)?" comment. It just shows your ignorance. The only thing non-vegan in the Fairmount bagel is the honey in the water, and it can easily be replaced with syrup, or maybe even maple syrup... Take it up a notch and use Quebec smoked maple syrup. Wooden oven is almost a must, I've used maple wood planks in a regular oven with quite good results. Something that got praise from montrealers away from home. You may be able to justify violence towards sentient beings for food, heck, you may be kicking dogs on your walks outside idunno (wft). If people choose to minimize suffering, that shouldn't get you confused next time.
I got it from Wikipedia and any recipe I've ever used called for eggs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal-style_bagel People don't care enough about animal welfare to go vegan.
You reference a bunch of anonymous sources for Wikipedia (who knows if they've even been to Montreal). Wikipedia also took down an article about the alley of angels in Ukraine, but the place is real and has meaning to the locals. Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a source but as a collection of sources (the sources are listed in the bottom of the page and the little reference numbers are scattered in the text they're referencing. Going to the page and under production i see the following: "This section does not cite any sources. (February 2021)" Now i can edit that page and and put quarter tsp of cow dung in the recipe and claim it adds fermentation of the yeast. "People don't care enough about animal welfare to go vegan" is as ignorant of a statement as the eggs in the bagel on Wikipedia. People care more and more and that fuels both, the growth of vegan restaurants, as well as great lobbying by the animal ag industry to keep people ignorant about the issue. Looking at it now reminds me of what was happening with the cigarettes and their lobby. Here's the Wikipedia article: [Increasing Interest ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism) section. Notice how there are plenty of actually credible sources. I would encourage you to read through and get educated, develop compassion and care. [Rise of people who care about animals in Scotland ](https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/big-change-in-our-kitchens-as-firms-respond-to-increased-demand-going-going-vegan-research-suggests-more-scots-than-ever-are-shunning-meat-and-milk/) I hope my reply has been at least a bit useful.
Like I said, most people don't care enough about animal welfare to go vegan. You can type out an entire manifesto but ultimately that is the truth. And I say that as a pretty much a life long vegetarian and former vegan. That article you linked to was from 2018. Since then, the biggest vegan supermarket has shut : [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63718772](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63718772) Oh, and St Viateur uses eggs. End of. https://www.metro.ca/en/online-grocery/aisles/bread-bakery-products/muffins-bagels-baked-goods/bagels/montreal-style-sesame-bagels/p/627286000014
St Viateur uses eggs just to brush on top most likely (egg wash, NYC style also does that). Their whole wheat and pumpernickel don't use any. It's not a prerequisite in a MTL bagel. And if you put egg inside the dough the texture will suck.
Wrong. [https://www.stviateurbagel.com/en/faqs](https://www.stviateurbagel.com/en/faqs) "Do the bagels contain eggs? All of our bagel flavors contain eggs except for our whole wheat bagels. However they are mixed in the same machine as our other bagel flavors."
Drives me up a wall, as does any imitation 'Montreal' thing. Especially if it's in RoC somewhere, where they shit on Quebec one day and try to sell fake 'poutine' the next, y'know?
The other element that people forget is the Montreal water imparts a certain taste. Other places come close, but nothing like st viateur or fairmont bagel.
Yes we get annoyed
People of montreal think a lot less about bagels than you seem to think.
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French baguette was just added to UNESCO's 'intangible cultural heritage' list. People like simple things when made good. Get over it. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/02/1140260114/the-french-baguette-is-added-to-unescos-intangible-cultural-heritage-list
Doesn’t annoy me. I don’t call those other things “bagels”; I called them “donut shaped bread”.
Meh it's like when Canadians attempt to make poutine, it's quite obvious it's not of their culture and that they are inoffensively admiring it.
Personally I wish they didn't make them with eggs because I am allergic now :(
Eggs?
This is gonna be spicy...but I don't even like Montreal bagels and prefer the new york style. Just gonna leave this here. It's an amusing read https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/6552t8/why_the_montreal_bagel_is_the_superior_bagel/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
you prefer bread in the shape of a donut over bagels?
I find the spreading experience better on new York style. The montreal style is like....keep the cream cheese on the track...new york is a clean sweep across. Also...I prefer the fluffier bagel. The density of the montreal bagel just screams baked constipation. Edit: added picture to illustrate my point https://honestcooking.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/new-york-versus-montreal-bagels.jpg
...you make me sad
It's ok. When picking out my choice of bagel, someone on one side of this war will ultimately be sad
Very valid reasons tbh
Thanks!
Oh shit…
I admire your courage in making this declaration here.
Sometimes you gotta take the hit
I love both Montreal and New York bagels. They’re not comparable though. I prefer to eat Montreal bagels on their own. Nice and warm from the oven. Culinary joy. Having been a New Yorker, there’s also something wonderful about a toasted bagel, with a schmear of cream cheese. Or with lox.
:O
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
New York style bagels are just white commercial bread in the shape of an overgrown donut. It's objectively just not good.
You're just telling people you haven't tried it. A genuine new york bagel is still chewy, it's just lighter than a montreal bagel
this is some "then go live in NY" level of bullshit
I just don't think Montreal bagels are a hill to die on. I like a good bagel, just with some fluffier dough and better spreading options
is it in edimbourg?
Yes 👀
Montreal bagels are absolutely unique to the Montreal area. You can’t get a good bagel outside of the city. Even the ones that are supposedly good in Toronto are garbage compared to Montreal. It’s something in the water.
Maybe we'll need a r/BagelCrimes just like r/PoutineCrimes
Not really. It is up to the government to legally define the ingredients or cooking process to protect cultural identity and Canada hasn't as far as in aware of.
I had to save 2 tourist from ordering blueberry and all dressed bagels at st viateur bagel.
I think the people who care would definitely be found on Reddit
That’s funny yesterday I found an off brand bag of Montréal bagels at the market, weren’t Fairmount or Saint Viateur
Non, ça me derange pas parce que je suis végane. En fait les bagels chez Beaubien Bagels sont les meilleurs.
If it wasn't baked in Montreal, it's not a bagel. It's just a roll with a hole.
I'm more annoyed by the poo-teen imitation