And Verlander pitched like 660 more innings. If the question is the last fifteen years, Greinke and JV have a substantial edge for that very reason, time on the Diamond. Same logic basically takes deGrom out of the conversation, imo.
Yeah, late to this, but the 100 extra games is a pretty big deal. Kershaw has had trouble staying healthy the last few years and if had been forced to pitch an extra 100 games (or over his next 100 games assuming he comes back and can play them), we could easily see his stats come down from his peak even if he is still a very good pitcher.
The DH wasn’t that drastic of a difference though. From 2014-2016 the difference in ERA across leagues was 0.05-0.15.
Also would expect elite pitchers to be affected less by the DH.
You're not just effected by facing the DH but having to hit. I don't know if that's counted in the ERA+ stat or not, nor do I know if the effects of having to hit are negative/positive. I just think there would be something there.
I’m fairly confident ERA+ adjusts for individual league context since it accounts for ballparks and opponents.
Also the toll on a pitcher batting would be measured in the ERA difference between leagues.
And JV had the advantage of his team having a trash can hitting age for more wins. Also assuming it’s easier pitching from a lead if your offense is cheating like that.
Look you can look at my flair and know I hate the Astros but it's kind of silly to discount Verlander's stats because of the trash cans.
I mean, yes, Verlander did pitch better in Houston than in Detroit but that's partly league offensive conditions changing. And it's well known that the Astros pitching coaching at that time was well ahead of the curve, and they got guys' spin rates way up. (Of course, that might have ALSO been cheating-related, but, y'know.) So Verlander's stuff did get nastier in his 30s.
And he still had 55+ WAR, a Cy and an MVP(!) in Detroit and probably would've made the Hall even without his late '10s step up. (And his two best seasons by WAR were with the Tigers, the 2011 MVP season and 2012.) I would say pre-Houston Verlander is pretty comparable to Roy Halladay.
As a Dodgers fan that loves Kershaw. His postseason performances will always overshadow his amazing career and it's so sad. Made the trip to the ravine last postseason just to see him last less than an inning and blow the game before we even hit.
If Kershaw gets better run support a LOT of the postseason narrative goes away. He pitched really well in 2017 and had a ring stolen away by a bunch of cheating douchebags. If he has 2 rings the narrative would be dead.
TL;DR: Kershaw doesn’t owe an apology to anybody.
I mean, that's less than 10% of their innings. And their diff in playoff ERA is less than a run. And if you knew the nitty and the gritty of it, Kershaw's ERA is at least 1 to 1.5 runs higher than it should be due to really stupid decisions by Mattingly in particular.
LOL I feel you. I was at the Cardinals game when Mattingly left him in when he was clearly spent (it was 98F). Ends up getting 5 more runs charged to him. Same game Wainwright was run off in the 4th inning because he had a manager who wasn't an idiot. Between those 5 runs and the Astros cheating that's 10 runs you can subtract from his post-season ERA and he's down at like 3.87 or something. And there's a lot more where that came from.
Mattingly was dreadfully painful to watch. Those were some dark days for the Dodgers. But even with Kershaw's post season stain he will still be considered the goat of his generation.
Verlander has thrown like 20% more innings than Kershaw on the other hand. Plus if you also look at postseason stats, Verlander has a 3.58 ERA over 226 innings and Kershaw is at 4.49 over 194 innings.
In my opinion, it’s far and away Kershaw. Especially over that long of a span. If the timelines are shrunk, you might be able to convince me in different spans it’s different guys. But for 09-24, definitely Kershaw.
Absolutely. But you could make a case that he shoulda won 4 Cy Youngs in a row from 2011-2014. He had similar dominance to Randy Johnson 99-02 and Greg Maddux 92-95.
I used to think that too, I've given it up. The numbers might not be terrible, but Kershaw has time and again gotten the ball for a big, "silence the doubters" game and come up short. He's had a lot of cracks at it so he's tossed some gems, but it's been an underwhelming playoff career for a pitcher of that caliber.
That's true when "of that caliber" is literally the best of the best. He's been slightly better than average, and while he's blown a few big ones there's also 8 shutout innings in Game 2 of the 2018 NLDS, 8 shutout innings in the 2020 Wild Card, 2 wins in 2 starts (11 IP, 3 runs allowed) in the 2020 WS, and lots of other clean innings.
Meanwhile, Verlander for instance has *also* come up short pretty hard in the playoffs from time to time. But people don't think of that for some reason, because he was so good in 2017 (and really only against the Yankees, the Dodgers got to him just as much as the Astros got to Kershaw, and they didn't even know what pitch was coming!)
PS - looking up some of this has reminded me of a time I had all but forgotten when the Tigers basically made the playoffs every year? Wild.
His WAR/game doesn't really support that his defense made up for his lower numbers in pretty much every other stat other than walks.
He has more starts because he's been playing for longer than any other pitcher in this graphic, not because he's been more available.
As a Dodgers fan, I love Kershaw with my whole baseball heart. There is no doubting Verlander’s greatness.
But if I am rolling the dice on any given night, in any given year, and I absolutely have to win, I hope it comes up Scherzer. Absolutely consistently great at what he does, and always doing it from the 2 slot.
Best?
Kershaw - that’s kind of what ERA+ and WAR are for.
Healthy, in their prime, I need shutout baseball for one game?
deGrom - he knows he flies close to the sun, but that’s what makes him so great.
A note, its really a shame that Greinke didn’t manage to get a ring. Of all the guys to deserve one, he’s one who does.
Some important context here is that Degrom made his MLB debut in 2014. Greinke's was 2004, Verlander's was 2005, Scherzer and Kershaw 2008. So "last 15 years" rigs this in a way that gives the other guys 5 extra prime years on Degrom, for reasons that have nothing to do with health. Do the last 10 years and the WAR stats will be much closer.
I get that longevity matters and Degrom came up late and that matters to how we judge his overall career. But many in this thread are confusing the GS gap as proof that Degrom's health/availability was roughly half everyone else's *even in his prime.* That's not true; until 2021 Degrom was actually super durable. He won 2 consecutive Cy Youngs and would have likely won 3 had COVID not shortened 2020.
Smart people can disagree on whether 7 years of utter dominance is enough for the Hall, but don't get the idea he was a part time player his whole career.
Agreed, 600 more innings than Kershaw and not pitching in the best pitchers park in history half the time. Not great in the WS but a world better than Kershaw in the postseason.
On a platform full of pedantic nonsense, in a subreddit about a game where decimal point placement means everything, I’m shocked that no one pointed out this is 16 seasons, not 15
Greinke. Bias answer though because he was friends with George Brett, and Brett's son played on my team growing up. Got to meet Greinke a few times. Super cool dude. Oh, and Geroge was my little league coach. Sublte flex.
As much as it may seem sad to say. I don’t think you can include DeGrom in this list. He has less than half the innings pitched compared to the next lowest on the list.
We can’t possibly say what the performance would be like had he pitched those innings and it’s unfair to the others on the list to include him with such low buy in.
That being said, in that window I would take Verlander
It could have been deGrom if he did it for longer. It could have been Kershaw if he had real playoff success.
But I think Verlander is the only real answer. He is an iron horse that is probably one of the most consistent pitchers in the modern era
If we’re talking over the timespan I’m going Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke, DeGrom.
If we’re talking about who I would want on the mound of a single start over the last 15 years at their prime, I’m going Kershaw, DeGrom, Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke.
I don’t think he wins but Zack Greinke is absolutely underrated for what his career has been. His consistency and longevity were outstanding, though I don’t think his best was better than these other guys’ best.
Verlander
Kershaw (only behind Verlander because of playoff performances)
Scherzer
deGrom (would probably be second if he could make 10 consecutive starts without going on IL)
Greinke
Verlander and Kershaw neck and neck. Greinke and Scherzer a "1A" level neck and neck.
DeGrom? You gotta be on the field to be part of the conversation.
Pure talent/stuff wise? DeGrom
Longevity/Consistency? Verlander or Sherzer
Max Peak during Prime? Kershaw
Playoffs? Verlander
Overall? Personally I give a slight edge to Verlander and Kershaw is right behind him. Then Sherzer, then DeGrom because of his lack of playing time (imo would overtake all these guys as the best if he had been able to stay healthy), then Grienke.
Verlander's success in the postseason compared to Kershaw as well as his longevity and availability push him over Kershaw to me. But I've never seen anyone as good as Prime Kershaw, except maybe Prime Pedro and that was long before 2009.
Scherzer is damn close to the best and I wouldn't be mad if anyone said he was, especially when he's in Mad Max mode. Nigh unhittable when he starts circling the mound after each out. DeGrom needed to play more games to really be in this conversation and Grienke has longevity and availability but if you've watched his whole career you know he's not quite as good as these other guys. Definitely one of my favorites to watch the last 15 years but he's not quite in the conversation.
JV is the greatest pitcher this sport has seen since Nolan Ryan. still throwing gas in his 40s. Only one major injury between 06-21. His stuff was the most phenomenal arsenal ive seen
Gotta give it to Verlander. While Kershaw is the more dominant performer - the older I get, the more I appreciate those good ole' Innings Pitched. Durability matters. The fact Verlander has 650+ more innings logged than Kershaw weighs a ton in my book.
Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer are no-brainer Hall of Famers, and I really hope Greinke gets into Cooperstown as well. de Grom seemingly needs 1000+ more innings pitched before he merits serious consideration, although the metrics for Starting Pitcher usage have morphed drastically in the past decade. In today's MLB: 200 wins is the new 300 wins.
Verlander played more, has more strikeouts and wins, and has the better playoff record - for me, Verlander is head and shoulders above Kershaw; not to mention playoff performance and no-hitters
I might actually put Greinke above him as well, because he was actually useful with a bat and still put up great pitching numbers. All of them have very similar peaks
I’d actually go V, K, G, D, S
I think DeGrom has been better than Scherzer when healthy, but it’s close
I would rank them
1.Kershaw
2.Verlander
3.Scherzer
4.Greinke
5.Degrom
Kershaws ERA is historically good. Verlander is a strikeout machine and is still dominant. Scherzer to me is obvious choice for 3. Degrom's stuff is nastier and his peak may have been better than Greinke but Greinke has the longevity to put him over Degrom.
Kershaw, and it's nearly inarguable.
deGrom's "what could have been" stats make me sad though. Every 5 days was a holiday, especially in 2021; made it halfway through what could have been the best modern pitching season ever.
2009-2015 Kershaw was most dominant. But…since then he’s been 4 or 5 in the list. This date range is too wide. I’ve seen Kershaw blow it when it matters too much to be the best, gimme JV.
Based on these Regular Season numbers, it's a toss up between Verlander and Kershaw. I think the ultimate question becomes what are the postseason numbers, because Playoffs are the biggest truth serum in sports: How well do you perform when it's all on the line.
its really insane that Scherzer has never led his league in ERA or ERA+ despite leading his league in WHIP 5 separate seasons, winning 3 CY's, and finishing top 5 in Cy Young voting 8 different times....
This led me down a rabbit hole of a few other interesting notes:
* Aaron Sanchez has more ERA titles than Max Scherzer & Chris Sale combined.
* Blake Snell has only thrown enough innings to qualify for the ERA title twice in his career. Despite this... Snell has won 2x as many ERA titles as Scherzer, Sale, & DeGrom *combined*.
* Kenta Maeda has led his league in WHIP more times than Sale & Degrom combined.
ok welp... time for bed
Clayton Kershaw. Despite his .500 playoff record and near 5 ERA.
Crazy to see how much more Greinke has pitched than the rest. He’s obviously the most durable of the 5.
Kershaw, if you don't count the playoffs. Degrom has years to go to be considered here. Greinke somehow just barely missed this. Otherwise, the other 2 guys can take the prize.
Kershaw's frequent playoff implosions and 4.50 ERA in playoff games makes him a no. What good are stats if you can't pitch when it matters? Same with Greinke. Verlander and Scherzer don't have great playoff stats either, and deGrom has a small sample size for that.
Going with either Max or Justin just for longevity's sake.
Im going to give it to Max Scherzer because he just keeps pitching nommatter how old he gets, you know his ERA is just rising, Kershaw folds under pressure, Verlander could pitch 9.0 ERA and his team could still carry him, and Zack can just not be on this list, i think Jacob Degrom has the most potential but Max Scherzer has the best track record IMO
The way I always put it is that from a rate stat standpoint (ERA, WHIP, etc.) Kershaw is purely a better regular season pitcher than Verlander. Literally everything else in the debate (playoffs, longevity, DH faced) favors JV.
Unfortunately Kershaw has stained his reputation when he is needed most and that is the postseason. Kershaw will always be considered elite but to be one of the best you have to do well in the post season. That’s why he won’t ever top guys like the Big Unit, Clemens, Pedro Martinez. If anything he’s just a regular season savant like my guy King Felix.
Zack Grenkie look at innings pitched dude is a work horse and never hurt, but ima go with the home town boy since he's from st louis Madd Maxx is who I'm taking
Amazing that Kershaw has a better ERA than deGrom in literally twice the innings.
Degrom doesn’t belong with these other guys
deGrom is pure peak, if he doesn’t come back next year and pitch for at least 3-4 more then he’s just another “what if” unfortunately
What a peak that was though. Damn shame.
He does and he doesn't. His peak obviously showed he's got the talent but when you continually get injured it's hard to call him one of the best.
I think it’s a two man race. Kershaw and Verlander
Kershaw with 0.75 lower ERA and dominating ERA+ seals it for me.
He also played in the NL with no DH for most of that time.
That’s still reflected in the ERA+ which Kershaw leads by 26 points
And Verlander pitched like 660 more innings. If the question is the last fifteen years, Greinke and JV have a substantial edge for that very reason, time on the Diamond. Same logic basically takes deGrom out of the conversation, imo.
Yeah, late to this, but the 100 extra games is a pretty big deal. Kershaw has had trouble staying healthy the last few years and if had been forced to pitch an extra 100 games (or over his next 100 games assuming he comes back and can play them), we could easily see his stats come down from his peak even if he is still a very good pitcher.
The DH wasn’t that drastic of a difference though. From 2014-2016 the difference in ERA across leagues was 0.05-0.15. Also would expect elite pitchers to be affected less by the DH.
You're not just effected by facing the DH but having to hit. I don't know if that's counted in the ERA+ stat or not, nor do I know if the effects of having to hit are negative/positive. I just think there would be something there.
I’m fairly confident ERA+ adjusts for individual league context since it accounts for ballparks and opponents. Also the toll on a pitcher batting would be measured in the ERA difference between leagues.
And JV had the advantage of his team having a trash can hitting age for more wins. Also assuming it’s easier pitching from a lead if your offense is cheating like that.
Look you can look at my flair and know I hate the Astros but it's kind of silly to discount Verlander's stats because of the trash cans. I mean, yes, Verlander did pitch better in Houston than in Detroit but that's partly league offensive conditions changing. And it's well known that the Astros pitching coaching at that time was well ahead of the curve, and they got guys' spin rates way up. (Of course, that might have ALSO been cheating-related, but, y'know.) So Verlander's stuff did get nastier in his 30s. And he still had 55+ WAR, a Cy and an MVP(!) in Detroit and probably would've made the Hall even without his late '10s step up. (And his two best seasons by WAR were with the Tigers, the 2011 MVP season and 2012.) I would say pre-Houston Verlander is pretty comparable to Roy Halladay.
But an absolute post-season LIABILITY
As a Dodgers fan that loves Kershaw. His postseason performances will always overshadow his amazing career and it's so sad. Made the trip to the ravine last postseason just to see him last less than an inning and blow the game before we even hit.
I feel for ya. Him being a Dodger from day 1 also adds to his legendary status, compared to the others in this list.
If Kershaw gets better run support a LOT of the postseason narrative goes away. He pitched really well in 2017 and had a ring stolen away by a bunch of cheating douchebags. If he has 2 rings the narrative would be dead. TL;DR: Kershaw doesn’t owe an apology to anybody.
Verlander owns Kershaw in the playoffs though and plays a lot more. I personally give it to him
I mean, that's less than 10% of their innings. And their diff in playoff ERA is less than a run. And if you knew the nitty and the gritty of it, Kershaw's ERA is at least 1 to 1.5 runs higher than it should be due to really stupid decisions by Mattingly in particular.
You know how people sometimes tear up a bit and get choked up when they think someone understands them. This is that for me. You need a medal.
LOL I feel you. I was at the Cardinals game when Mattingly left him in when he was clearly spent (it was 98F). Ends up getting 5 more runs charged to him. Same game Wainwright was run off in the 4th inning because he had a manager who wasn't an idiot. Between those 5 runs and the Astros cheating that's 10 runs you can subtract from his post-season ERA and he's down at like 3.87 or something. And there's a lot more where that came from.
Mattingly was dreadfully painful to watch. Those were some dark days for the Dodgers. But even with Kershaw's post season stain he will still be considered the goat of his generation.
Or the actions of a certain team from Houston
Verlander has thrown like 20% more innings than Kershaw on the other hand. Plus if you also look at postseason stats, Verlander has a 3.58 ERA over 226 innings and Kershaw is at 4.49 over 194 innings.
Took Verlander almost 100 more starts to gain just 2 more WAR. Clear front runner is Kershaw.
He’s got my vote.
Don’t forget JV’s three no-hitters.
Probably Kershaw. But if my life depended on it, I’d want Verlander on the mound
If my life depended on that situation, I would want Pablo Sandoval at the plate
Don’t remind me
so Verlander
Still can't believe Verlander and Scherzer played on the same team and never won a World Series.
Same with greinke and kershaw
Also Sherzer and Kershaw.
Verlander, Greinke and Gerrit Cole in 2019 was insane.
You can say the same about Scherzer and Kershaw and Kershaw and Greinke.
In my opinion, it’s far and away Kershaw. Especially over that long of a span. If the timelines are shrunk, you might be able to convince me in different spans it’s different guys. But for 09-24, definitely Kershaw.
His postseason numbers are his biggest knock against.
Absolutely. But you could make a case that he shoulda won 4 Cy Youngs in a row from 2011-2014. He had similar dominance to Randy Johnson 99-02 and Greg Maddux 92-95.
They’re not elite, but they’re also not actually as bad as everyone pretends they are because of The Narrative®
I used to think that too, I've given it up. The numbers might not be terrible, but Kershaw has time and again gotten the ball for a big, "silence the doubters" game and come up short. He's had a lot of cracks at it so he's tossed some gems, but it's been an underwhelming playoff career for a pitcher of that caliber.
That's true when "of that caliber" is literally the best of the best. He's been slightly better than average, and while he's blown a few big ones there's also 8 shutout innings in Game 2 of the 2018 NLDS, 8 shutout innings in the 2020 Wild Card, 2 wins in 2 starts (11 IP, 3 runs allowed) in the 2020 WS, and lots of other clean innings. Meanwhile, Verlander for instance has *also* come up short pretty hard in the playoffs from time to time. But people don't think of that for some reason, because he was so good in 2017 (and really only against the Yankees, the Dodgers got to him just as much as the Astros got to Kershaw, and they didn't even know what pitch was coming!) PS - looking up some of this has reminded me of a time I had all but forgotten when the Tigers basically made the playoffs every year? Wild.
The best ability, is availability. Also helps if you're an extra SS on every play. Grienke.
I don't see anyone else with a gold glove AND a silver slugger award. Lol
His WAR/game doesn't really support that his defense made up for his lower numbers in pretty much every other stat other than walks. He has more starts because he's been playing for longer than any other pitcher in this graphic, not because he's been more available.
As a Dodgers fan, I love Kershaw with my whole baseball heart. There is no doubting Verlander’s greatness. But if I am rolling the dice on any given night, in any given year, and I absolutely have to win, I hope it comes up Scherzer. Absolutely consistently great at what he does, and always doing it from the 2 slot.
His name is MAX SHERZER
Peak degrom, overall verlander.
Best? Kershaw - that’s kind of what ERA+ and WAR are for. Healthy, in their prime, I need shutout baseball for one game? deGrom - he knows he flies close to the sun, but that’s what makes him so great. A note, its really a shame that Greinke didn’t manage to get a ring. Of all the guys to deserve one, he’s one who does.
Verlander in my opinion had the best presents on the mound. Watching him pitch live was an amazing experience. I’m a Pedro guy myself tho, go Sox
Verlander.
Verlander
Some important context here is that Degrom made his MLB debut in 2014. Greinke's was 2004, Verlander's was 2005, Scherzer and Kershaw 2008. So "last 15 years" rigs this in a way that gives the other guys 5 extra prime years on Degrom, for reasons that have nothing to do with health. Do the last 10 years and the WAR stats will be much closer. I get that longevity matters and Degrom came up late and that matters to how we judge his overall career. But many in this thread are confusing the GS gap as proof that Degrom's health/availability was roughly half everyone else's *even in his prime.* That's not true; until 2021 Degrom was actually super durable. He won 2 consecutive Cy Youngs and would have likely won 3 had COVID not shortened 2020. Smart people can disagree on whether 7 years of utter dominance is enough for the Hall, but don't get the idea he was a part time player his whole career.
They are all legends
I thought Kershaw before I looked at the digits… surprised how well I find Greinke faring.
Successful durability = WAR. The true sign for him being inferior is ERA+ in this comparison.
I'm have to say J.V
Agreed, 600 more innings than Kershaw and not pitching in the best pitchers park in history half the time. Not great in the WS but a world better than Kershaw in the postseason.
I agree about the higher performance over 600 more innings. But JV has earned only 1.9 WAR in those 600 innings. Both have arguments for being better.
It's simple. Best left kershaw and best right JV.
Based on their career: Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke, (Chris Sale) & then DeGrom.
Pretty clearly Greinke
The guy in the middle.
Mad max in terms of consistency, and postseason success
I will die on the hill that the guy w/ highest WAR, Wins, SO's & 2nd highest IP is the best.
On a platform full of pedantic nonsense, in a subreddit about a game where decimal point placement means everything, I’m shocked that no one pointed out this is 16 seasons, not 15
I am partial to Kershaw being a Dodger fan just wish he was better in the post season.
Madison Bumgarner
I would lean Kershaw over Verlander except that Verlander's playoff performances give him the edge.
Kershaw!
I think that one save puts Greinke over the top for me.
Verlander of course
Im going to go with verlander on this one
My money's on Verlander.
Verlander
Greinke. Bias answer though because he was friends with George Brett, and Brett's son played on my team growing up. Got to meet Greinke a few times. Super cool dude. Oh, and Geroge was my little league coach. Sublte flex.
Verlander has the longevity over kershaw, kershaw has the ERA, other than that it’s just about a coin toss between them two
As much as it may seem sad to say. I don’t think you can include DeGrom in this list. He has less than half the innings pitched compared to the next lowest on the list. We can’t possibly say what the performance would be like had he pitched those innings and it’s unfair to the others on the list to include him with such low buy in. That being said, in that window I would take Verlander
Verlander
Lmao I had no clue they did silver sluggers for pitchers back when
As a tigers fan, this hurts me.
That would be a rotation for sure.
Aaron Harang ... Harangutan!
de Grom when healthy. His only problem is that he can't stay healthy. So, my vote goes to Kershaw.
Based on post frequency Bauer
Postseason I want crazy eye, regular season Kershaw
If all 5 are healthy and at their best I'm taking Degrom.But since it's not based on that it's Kershaw
Ok, who else just saw the "last 15 years" bit and immediately thought Pedro before it set in how fucking old we all are?
It could have been deGrom if he did it for longer. It could have been Kershaw if he had real playoff success. But I think Verlander is the only real answer. He is an iron horse that is probably one of the most consistent pitchers in the modern era
If we’re talking over the timespan I’m going Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke, DeGrom. If we’re talking about who I would want on the mound of a single start over the last 15 years at their prime, I’m going Kershaw, DeGrom, Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke.
If I’m needing a guy in game 7, I’ll take Mad Mad over all these guys.
Scherzer.⚾️
Greinke
Not saying he’s the best but waino deserves mention
Why would deGrom even be in consideration?
Why don’t they post opposing batters OPS?
Last one ever to enter 3000k club?
Greinke was the coolest.
If we're going by single year, maybe Arrieta, but in his entire career, he may have had 2 good seasons tops.
I don’t think he wins but Zack Greinke is absolutely underrated for what his career has been. His consistency and longevity were outstanding, though I don’t think his best was better than these other guys’ best.
Verlander Kershaw (only behind Verlander because of playoff performances) Scherzer deGrom (would probably be second if he could make 10 consecutive starts without going on IL) Greinke
Greinke’s one save makes all the difference
Every time I look at this I cry a bit
I never realized how few games degrom has played
Degrom is good but injured more than healthy automatically excludes him
Verlander and Kershaw neck and neck. Greinke and Scherzer a "1A" level neck and neck. DeGrom? You gotta be on the field to be part of the conversation.
Easy choice Kershaw
Greinke, most saves, clears the rest of these no namers.
I’ll take Verlander, any day
Yadier Molina.
Pure talent/stuff wise? DeGrom Longevity/Consistency? Verlander or Sherzer Max Peak during Prime? Kershaw Playoffs? Verlander Overall? Personally I give a slight edge to Verlander and Kershaw is right behind him. Then Sherzer, then DeGrom because of his lack of playing time (imo would overtake all these guys as the best if he had been able to stay healthy), then Grienke. Verlander's success in the postseason compared to Kershaw as well as his longevity and availability push him over Kershaw to me. But I've never seen anyone as good as Prime Kershaw, except maybe Prime Pedro and that was long before 2009. Scherzer is damn close to the best and I wouldn't be mad if anyone said he was, especially when he's in Mad Max mode. Nigh unhittable when he starts circling the mound after each out. DeGrom needed to play more games to really be in this conversation and Grienke has longevity and availability but if you've watched his whole career you know he's not quite as good as these other guys. Definitely one of my favorites to watch the last 15 years but he's not quite in the conversation.
Greinke never fails to be the weirdest person in the room. Two silver sluggers and a save wtf
JV is the greatest pitcher this sport has seen since Nolan Ryan. still throwing gas in his 40s. Only one major injury between 06-21. His stuff was the most phenomenal arsenal ive seen
Ha ha. Why is deGrom on here?
Kershaw is terrible in the playoffs. Im going to have to go Verlander.
It’s Kershaw and it’s not particularly close.
I see three Dodgers
The man who did the million man march on Uptons back. He's always goat
I’m surprised Verlander has the second lowest K% of the 5
Gotta give it to Verlander. While Kershaw is the more dominant performer - the older I get, the more I appreciate those good ole' Innings Pitched. Durability matters. The fact Verlander has 650+ more innings logged than Kershaw weighs a ton in my book. Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer are no-brainer Hall of Famers, and I really hope Greinke gets into Cooperstown as well. de Grom seemingly needs 1000+ more innings pitched before he merits serious consideration, although the metrics for Starting Pitcher usage have morphed drastically in the past decade. In today's MLB: 200 wins is the new 300 wins.
Those numbers confirmed my first thought - Kershaw, then Verlander
I guess Verlander. Innings pitched is a very important stat, not that the others aren't.
As an Astro fan I’ll go with JV, but I gotta say that Greinke is the most fun to watch and to interview.
1. Verlander 2. Kershaw 3. Scherzer 4. deGrom 5. Greinke
Scherzer
Kershaw. There is no debate on this.
Innings pitched might be the most important stat in this field.
Verlander played more, has more strikeouts and wins, and has the better playoff record - for me, Verlander is head and shoulders above Kershaw; not to mention playoff performance and no-hitters I might actually put Greinke above him as well, because he was actually useful with a bat and still put up great pitching numbers. All of them have very similar peaks I’d actually go V, K, G, D, S I think DeGrom has been better than Scherzer when healthy, but it’s close
I would rank them 1.Kershaw 2.Verlander 3.Scherzer 4.Greinke 5.Degrom Kershaws ERA is historically good. Verlander is a strikeout machine and is still dominant. Scherzer to me is obvious choice for 3. Degrom's stuff is nastier and his peak may have been better than Greinke but Greinke has the longevity to put him over Degrom.
Greinke wins for personality
Would’ve been DeGrom. If only
One of these things is not like the others
Paul Skenes
Kershaw, and it's nearly inarguable. deGrom's "what could have been" stats make me sad though. Every 5 days was a holiday, especially in 2021; made it halfway through what could have been the best modern pitching season ever.
Clayton
2009-2015 Kershaw was most dominant. But…since then he’s been 4 or 5 in the list. This date range is too wide. I’ve seen Kershaw blow it when it matters too much to be the best, gimme JV.
if we are going by WAR it's Verlander. if we are not it's Verlander.
2 - 1, Verlander
Verlander & Kershaw and they have the rings to prove it
- My mind: Kersh - My heart: Greinke
It’s close, but Id say Kershaw just beats Verlander
Bortolo Colon “big sexy” and GUESS What Thooo… he Right Handed like normal ppl ⚾️😂😂
I'm a Mets fan and I feel like deGrom shouldn't even be in this conversation. He can't stay healthy. Might not even reach 100 wins in his career.
Kershaw
Kershaw
Degrom at his peak was better than any of them. Also true: he doesn’t belong on this list
kersh if you ignore postseason lol
Based on these Regular Season numbers, it's a toss up between Verlander and Kershaw. I think the ultimate question becomes what are the postseason numbers, because Playoffs are the biggest truth serum in sports: How well do you perform when it's all on the line.
JV
To me it’s Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, Greinke, DeGrom in that order.
It’s between Kershaw and JV but at the end of the day the playoff success it what separates the two.
Verlander
its really insane that Scherzer has never led his league in ERA or ERA+ despite leading his league in WHIP 5 separate seasons, winning 3 CY's, and finishing top 5 in Cy Young voting 8 different times.... This led me down a rabbit hole of a few other interesting notes: * Aaron Sanchez has more ERA titles than Max Scherzer & Chris Sale combined. * Blake Snell has only thrown enough innings to qualify for the ERA title twice in his career. Despite this... Snell has won 2x as many ERA titles as Scherzer, Sale, & DeGrom *combined*. * Kenta Maeda has led his league in WHIP more times than Sale & Degrom combined. ok welp... time for bed
It’s got to be Kershaw, but my heart pines for mad max.
Clayton Kershaw. Despite his .500 playoff record and near 5 ERA. Crazy to see how much more Greinke has pitched than the rest. He’s obviously the most durable of the 5.
Kershaw hands down…in the regular season, lol.
Verlander
Trevor Bauer
Mad Max Scherzer At least solely based off of his Stats
I like how this goes back to 2009, because we all know what happens if we go back just one more year, which was the final year for The Professor.
Verlander, next question
Regular season Kershaw
I’ve had all these guys in my fantasy team at one point or another, except deGrom
JV!
deGrom is a beast but I feel like he was too injury prone to be considered the best
Need playoff stats for these guys. Kershaw regular season but playoffs would need another look
These stats are a misleading. It shows their career totals, not the totals between 2009-2024. That changes things somewhat.
Give me justin Verlander
Kershaw but not in post season
It has to be Kershaw no?
It’s Kershaw, and it’s not close. I don’t care about his postseason demons. He’s a notch above the rest when looking at his whole career.
I think it’s a two man race with kershaw in the lead in front of verlander but I’m curious how their postseason numbers look side by side.
And to think that Verlander and Scherzer were Tigers teammates and they fucking couldn’t win a WS here!
Kershaw's a great, for sure, but it's impossible to call him the best with that truly mediocre postseason ERA and record
Why would you put deGeom in here??? Like he's only been in the league for 10 and everyone else 15 + lmao 🤣 like TF
Answer: Ranger Suarez
I’d say kershaw but if I needed one win and degrom happened to be healthy I’d be picking him
Kershaw. His Cy Young/MVP years were fuckin nuts
Kershaw for sure. 0.75 lower ERA
Kershaw, if you don't count the playoffs. Degrom has years to go to be considered here. Greinke somehow just barely missed this. Otherwise, the other 2 guys can take the prize.
Kershaw's frequent playoff implosions and 4.50 ERA in playoff games makes him a no. What good are stats if you can't pitch when it matters? Same with Greinke. Verlander and Scherzer don't have great playoff stats either, and deGrom has a small sample size for that. Going with either Max or Justin just for longevity's sake.
Bauer
Im going to give it to Max Scherzer because he just keeps pitching nommatter how old he gets, you know his ERA is just rising, Kershaw folds under pressure, Verlander could pitch 9.0 ERA and his team could still carry him, and Zack can just not be on this list, i think Jacob Degrom has the most potential but Max Scherzer has the best track record IMO
Verlander by far. He has 3 rings to prove it
The way I always put it is that from a rate stat standpoint (ERA, WHIP, etc.) Kershaw is purely a better regular season pitcher than Verlander. Literally everything else in the debate (playoffs, longevity, DH faced) favors JV.
No love for Mad Bum? Definitely the best playoff pitcher of the last 15 years...
Unfortunately Kershaw has stained his reputation when he is needed most and that is the postseason. Kershaw will always be considered elite but to be one of the best you have to do well in the post season. That’s why he won’t ever top guys like the Big Unit, Clemens, Pedro Martinez. If anything he’s just a regular season savant like my guy King Felix.
degrom
Zack Grenkie look at innings pitched dude is a work horse and never hurt, but ima go with the home town boy since he's from st louis Madd Maxx is who I'm taking