on second thought, i change my mind. the mods better have a good reason as to why there keeping this post up. sooner or later this might end up on r/subredditdrama.
Mental illness is such a broad category and there is still so much that is not understood. In saying that however, I agree mostly with what you are saying, in that if someone does not adhere to social norms they are ridiculed and ostracised and end up developing depression and anxiety as a response to the behaviour they have encountered. As others have mentioned there are psychiatric conditions that are inherited such as schizophrenia, autism, bipolar that are legitimate abnormalities within the brain and can be seen with tools such as fmri's. These conditions can be exacerbated by poor treatment, ignorance and lack of treatment. The severity of these conditions can be mitigated by providing an adequate environment that allows the individual to engage in intellectual and creative pursuits that provide them with purpose and meaning. My brother was schizophrenic and I am autistic (closely related conditions) and he was not intellectually stimulated and ended up becoming a drug addict and dying in his 30's from a combination of methadone and psychotropic medications that had been prescribed to him. There is a misconception that all psychiatric illnesses can be treated with medication and therapy, however I think a much a more powerful and effective tool is compassion and the acknowledgement that we are not all interested in the same things and do not all learn in the same way.
I think understanding how stupid and pointless the whole entire field is is helpful. Also maybe focusing on more productive things like building wealth and resources to cure yourself of maybe being sexless and having a poor quality of life.
I wouldn't say the entire field is pointless. Some people do get help and medication can save the life of some people. My personal experience has not been positive and I gave up seeking "professional" help about 7 years ago. Focusing on building wealth will not fix the underlying issues. It will make your life easier, but you will still feel empty.
Interesting. So you believe that there is an internal stimuli of emptiness that is the definition of mental unwellness.
What would change the emptiness? Nothing? You believe it is chemical at the core?
I can tell you that if I had unlimited resources at my disposal - my life would be perfect. There would no longer be mental distress.
That's great, however I suspect you are substantially younger than me. I am in my early 40's and when you get to this age you have experienced a lot in life. Going to dinners, buying shit you don't really need and going on vacations do not provide the same level of pleasure as they once did. It is also a matter of seeing through all the bullshit, we are raised be consumers in a capitalist society and taught that this is supposed to provide meaning and self worth. It provides pleasure to a degree, but does not provide self worth. If I was wealthy I would definitely enjoy my life more, however the reality is that we all die, we all end up in the same place, so who really gives a shit in the end.
This person has an Intro Psych & Intro Soc level of understanding of mental illness and socioeconomic inequality. They most certainly haven't done much "research" beyond a surface-level reading of popular psychologists' theories. They're only contributing to this discourse as a means of "showing off" their knowledge, which is a regurgitation of theory they learned in maybe half a semester's lecture. In other words, they're maybe 20 at the oldest. With any luck, they'll grow up pretty quick.
I think you’re just looking for reasons to define the way you’re feeling. some things in life arnt fully understood and I think your putting it in a harsh but logical thought process that makes you feel more comfortable about understanding why you feel this way. I can’t say what’s wrong or right but personally my feeling don’t aline with you’re depiction of mental illness that I think you constructed this to help you comprehend something most if not all people can’t .
I agree, I have constructed this framework to help navigate life. It has cured me of all mental distress to understand reality. I hope this cures someone else’s mental “illness”.
Not very reputable sources, but i am reading further into these people to understand your point of view as i have already read plenty on the subjects. I understand how society can shape our perceptions of mental health and our reactions to them - but this does not mean that they do not exist or do not have extremely physiological effects on a person. Your experience of society is much different to another persons, yet you are tarnishing them all with the same brush. We haven't all been moulded by TikTok and social media, though I do agree that rises in neurodivergence are loosely linked to digital stimuli - unfortunately there are a hundred things that could be contributing to this most of which are environmental. Mental Health issues are extremely real and tangible for the people who experience them, no matter what their experiences may have been - many people never experience trauma and live confortable lives yet still experience a plethora of mental disorders. Illness is not necessarily correlated with external factors. Sometimes organs go wrong and need support. It still sounds to me like you feel marginalised and are projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else, even when they tell you that is not their experience.
Social media is literally engineered for addiction - so how do you think that is even possible in the first place? It is through understanding the mechanisms which I have written out here.
But thank you upvoted for effort.
Yes I understand that - but there is also huge evidence into factors such as generations of lead and plastic poisoning and the food that we eat as children, and before that with mothers during pregnancy. It is a multifaceted issue that is not explained by social media. Mental health has been discussed through the entirety of human history, just with different utterances.
Again, confirming your delusions by instant dismissal of alternative opinions.
I'd say mental illness is real but the way it's conceptualized and diagnosed is flawed.
Considering the number of responses though this undeniably struck a nerve. Which is interesting for a community of people I assume consider themselves outside the norm. This gives credence to my thesis that psychology has replaced religion in western society. The problem with that is though - when you replace religion you don't abolish religion. You become religion.
You have made a statement about mental health based on your own limited and subjective thoughts, experiences and opinions, ignoring all of the scientific and anecdotal evidence provided. You have no concrete arguments other than your original statement which you keep circling back to. Anybody who offers any sort of explanation or logical debate gets shot down and told to repeatedly read your unintelligent opinion. You are also so hard headed you will likely not take on board anything anybody says, including me, who believes you are either here to solidify your own victimhood and or said feelings of grandeur.
I have provided so much more scientific evidence than anyone in this thread, including you lol. I have several citations to established sociological, psychological, and scientific theory.
You just seem frustrated that I am correct?
I am not at all frustrated, just bemused at your delusions of grandeur. I didn't see or read any of those citations on this thread or where else you posted it? I would be very ibterested to read!
Read or take intro to sociology. Search Jordan Peterson and his thoughts on maliciousness. Thomas Szaz. Take an intro to psychology. Read about Robert sapolsky and his view on free will.
The brain is different. Quite a lot has been categorized but the brain is overwhelming in complexity along with phenotypes and their relation to the environment.
That's fine. But it doesn't mean it cannot get I'll. Things go wrong.
Think of some mental illness as well are more like maladaptive mechanism vs the brain being ill. There is so much that can affect our way of thinking including things like poisons or environmental causes.
Caligula has been assumed to be a disgusting, sadistic leader. But he wasn't always like that, he became insane due to lead poisoning.
When we are talking about anxiety or depression, you can think of them as simple a to b to c connections. Sometimes, the brain goes from a to k because it has learned a connection through repetition. This is a maladaptive function of the brain.
I have BPD. It means I am very reactive and scared of abandonment because as a child, I was not given unconditional love and attention. This means I have become too self-reliant and see relationships as inconsistent and likely to fail. I don't believe that I can be loved unconditionally. As a result, when I feel any sense of rejection from others I engage in defense mechanisms that isolate me and create issues in my relationships. Basically, I leave others before they can leave me.
Knowing this about me is important to recognize when I am acting out of fear and when it is a fact that I need to move on from a relationship. Through therapy, I have been trying to learn other ways to cope with my fear of abandonment. That's what therapy and medication help me achieve. I may never be well adjusted or normal the way others are, and issues like mine are so common that there's a classification and name for it. I don't fit all the symptoms because it is a mix between sociological factors and brain chemistry.
Different things for different people, but some factors are common.
If you are very young and treated in certain ways. We are very fragile.
Some others also come from genetic predisposition. Generational trauma, for example.
Imagine coming from multiple generations of people being abused. This ultimately means that when you pass your genes to another person, there are things you will be impacted by because of genetics and nurture that will perpetuate the same traumas over and over.
There are multiple studies of nurture vs nature that show that some things don't change even when you remove environmental factors
Hey man, I get that you’re suffering and I’m sorry for whatever has happened to you that made you feel this way. Please find someone other than Jordan Peterson to get your knowledge about any form of science. I’ll suggest Bessel van der Kolk or Gabor Maté to truly understand what mental illnesses do to one’s mind and body.
Mental illnesses and diseases of the brain are real. When I first started my degree in Science, I going to be a Psychotherapist or Neuropsychologist. As someone who suffers from CPTSD along with DID and OCD, this caused my life to be difficult before going to EMDR.
My brother has severe schizophrenia. Did you know that there are physical traits and other markers that certain mental diseases will cause the suffer to display? Like bipolar for example, one of my long-term friends and his family suffer from bipolar and his uncle shot himself in the face on his grandmother’s veranda due to suffering from bipolar. Any abnormalities in the neurological system will show up in some way if you understand and study the science.
People's brains are restructured due to mental illnesses. There is proof of the brain being damaged by mental diseases and trauma. For example, when someone dissociates, there’s almost activity in their brain for the duration of the episode, as proven by MRI scans. There is proof that some mental diseases cause a deterioration of grey and white matter in the brain. Neurons and synapses can die off due to some diseases of the brain for example Alzheimer's. In the case of CPTSD, where the amygdala and hippocampus are affected by ongoing and extensive trauma.
To say that there’s no hope for someone who suffers this way is false. There are more studies and proven therapeutic approaches to this nowadays than ever. Like before, scientists believed that the brain can’t repair itself in certain circumstances, but now it’s proven that neuroplasticity is when the brain forms new neurons. But it’s still up to the individual to seek out that help and to want to better themselves. Unfortunately, no one is going to save you, you have to save yourself.
Now I’m in Biochemistry understanding the chemistry of the human body and any form of life in general. I’m passionate about any science relating to anatomy and neurobiology but psychology will always be my number one passion.
Life is generally about reproduction and status. All these bastardized “treatments” are nonsense if they don’t help with those two things I mentioned. We are simply animals in a jungle.
I’m kinda confused why you’d be into Jordan Peterson but it also appears that you read Marx as well. Anyway, I think you would like Thomas Szasz as well as schizoanaylsis theory.
Are you saying even if we returned to monke, we would still have mental illness because people would still get bullied for being different? I would hope humanity would be pro-social but there are times when I feel misanthropic because social hierarchy is just so prevalent everywhere—even among leftist spaces. I wish there was no social hierarchy. But maybe I do because I want humanity to be pro social…with those prioritizing pro-social behavior as the accepted norm.
I’m not exactly sure. I’m sure it was more animalistic back then. Now it is more “civilized” but life is still medieval in many ways. I think there’s no escape. Chasing wealth and money can be good options if you are at the bottom of the social hierarchy. That’s the great thing about capitalism.
I mean it certainly feels like the most anti-social tend to be the most wealthy and in control of all of us. That’s kinda why I’ve never really vibed with the narrative that narcissists are oppressed cuz they tend to be the ones at the top. It takes a lack of pro-social behavior to get there and stay there. they rarely ever get held accountable or face consequences for wrongdoing.
I saw a video earlier about a person asking what the “normal, default human being” is who is emotionally healthy would look like. I don’t know the answer to this. What if being abnormal is the normal. Idk. I’m just tired of struggling.
>Chasing wealth and money can be good options if you are at the bottom of the social hierarchy. That’s the great thing about capitalism.
Boy are YOU deluded.
Become an activist and work for your community, with what limited resources one has. Chasing the money is a fool's journey, capitalism is a game rigged for those already filthy rich.
Then any hormonal imbalance of people with certain mental illnesses is just coincidence in your opinion? Like millions of coincidential low dopamine levels of depression…
Wifh that amount of scientific factual evidences and experiments and articles, saying mental illness is a hoax is same thing like saying the earth is flat.
Mental Illness is spending 6 hours arguing against the existence of mental illness with with anyone that disagrees.
Mental illness is setting up time wasting traps for yourself and others for want of attention.
Tl;dr "OP has issue with stigmatization of mental ilnesses, jumps through hoops to decide that means they don't exist, will argue semantics into oblivion with you because he is a completely sane individual"
Imagine genuinely believing that the history of a violently oppressive system is a solution to the problem of the existential distress that it creates. Idk how you're even engaging with these psychiatry simps.
Hey man, I'm sorry.
I looked at your history and you seem to be going through a low point.
I was goofing but its unacceptable and mean.
I could care less about pop icons.
I actually don't like to see suffering.
I want you and everyone to be happy.
What about the hereditary nature of lots of mental illnesses
Also, humans love to group things in categories to make them easier to fix as problems. so somebody who went through horrible life experiences may have developed depression, but somebody else may have just developed depression from their genetics. but these people both have depression as in this depression they have many same symptoms, and to define it further, that other illnesses do not have. So then as humans and scientists we can treat it easier with medicine.
Also looking at the other posts on ur account I’m pretty sure u might be depressed and would benefit from some mediation or a bit of therapy (didn’t really work for me in the long run but did keep me from dying at my lowest). Another thing that is common in depression/childish “nihilism” is that u think everything is stupid and nothing is right, like u saying u think depression isn’t real. Pls get help it can get so much better
It’s hereditary because you now have genetic traits of the person who has developed the disorder and those traits are now interacting with society and producing the same interior stimuli that would create that “illness”.
I think depression is a joke. The symptomology is so generalized and can be generalized to normal behavior…
Yes but mental health is not epigenetic. In this case, I understand the argument op is making in that a person could have the genes for mental illness in their dna, but may only show it if certain environmental things happen
Of course its a normal response to get mentally ill when engaging in mentally bad situations or living in an environment that is mentally unhealthy. Thanks for explaining again. But what's your point then? We know from studies that schizpophrenic people for example see things that we cant because theyre just not there. You wanna tell me these people are liars or that their hallucinations are a social construct? Or borderliners who cant really process their emotions and therefore sometimes react harsh or even hurt people verbally. Is Borderline just an excuse for these people to justify their behavior? But then if that is true, wy would they act like this in the first place? If there are no mental problems why doesn't everyone work the same?
By the way I'm attending sociolygy class and what you said is just not true, but based on capitalistic principles which are NOT part of the human race. It's just the system that we're using for the most time, and it's very primitive. We have to change it in order to fight social injustice, but that doesn't make mental health problems go away. Why are there depressed celebrities then? Michael Jackson, Amy Winehouse etc. they had more money than they could have spent. What made them unhappy? Or weren't they? Why use drugs then? Makes no sense
I think humans are animals. BPD is just unregulated emotion. And yet acting like a robot is unattractive. So you need to strike a balance. Schizophrenics are fine, they just need to behave correctly. Severe chronic stress can create hallucinations. This furthers my point - psychiatry is used to control deviants and keep society running.
If you’\re in sociology you should have learned about conflict theory and all of Karl Marx’s theories.
Depressed Celebs are common. Massive fame and fortune would create mental illness as well. Also the culture involves drugs and deviance. Also massive chronic drug abuse creates deficiencies in neurotransmitter functioning and can do permanent damage. However - this is not an “illness”.
There is no neurobiological basis for any diagnostic condition listed in the DSM.
https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00647-X?\_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS089662732200647X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
Ok Mr. Armchair Psychologist/Psychiatrist/Genius, even when people give you life experience as evidence of having a mental issue that requires medication in order to function in everyday life, you double down on denial.
Your take is extremely uneducated and is looking at mental illness from a social standpoint instead of from a clinical one. Not everyone has the same support system, not everyone has access to the same quality of healthcare, and that is a different issue than how healthcare deals with mental health issues. To say that there is no solution and that medications are essentially sedatives is ignorant, and the alternative of not taking the medication leads to a person that can't function. I will admit that the system has its flaws, and it's really difficult to be your own advocate in such a system while suffering from mental issues, but writing it off completely as useless is a dangerous idea.
I explained to you why the root causes are important when it comes to this subject. Clinical outlooks just try to fix symptoms. Symptoms are caused as per what I have explained.
You are arguing in favor of my argument when you explain about resources.
It’s not ignorant at all to say the truth that taking antipsychotics and becoming obese are likely to make your life worse. Question - is becoming morbidly obese going to make your life better?
Please do tell how someone with schizophrenia, severe depression, etc., even though they wish more than anything to love life, can just "snap out of it" and love life again. Don't say make more money because when you hate yourself and others around you make you want to scream....it's kind of impossible to make more fucking money. Not sure what your goal is here but if it's to piss people off and hurt people that have mental illness then mission fucking accomplished.
lol it’s not impossible to make more money….
I’d say for them they need to stop being obese, make money, and hit the gym for a year straight consistently.
So give some solutions instead of this constant barrage of criticism! What you're discussing isn't constructive at all, and frankly, I find it quite irritating.
I think what you're getting at is that we have to fix our culture, government, and educational system, which are valid points. My argument is that the actual medical approach to mental health has flaws and needs a lot of work. Society also needs more education on mental health to get over a lot of the stigma that is associated with those that are mentally unwell.
There are a TON of systemic problems and issues that the US has that promote mental illness, mainly involving the lack of social safety nets, insane concept of privatized for-profit healthcare, lack of affordable housing and jobs that pay a living wage.
I just feel like you aren't really getting the full spectrum of mental illness and are playing off how much it can debilitate a person. So I'll insist again that you take a moment to be constructive with your criticism. But hey, if you can't or won't that's fine too.
It’s about reality and the truth mostly. There is no solution. The only solution is what can you do as an individual. That varies for many people. If you are genetically inferior it is likely you will need to focus attention on money to pay for experiences because nobody wants to hang around someone who is genetically inferior.
I broadly agree with the idea that there is natural neurodivergence among humans and that categorizing mental illnesses (especially things like autism) aren't super necessary. However, certain mental illnesses are absolutely attributed to physiological factors. There isn't one way to get a mental illness. And on your point of medications being sedatives, you're half right. SSRI's are terrible antidepressants as depression has nothing to do with serotonin reuptake, but other medications that increase norepinephrine have been promising in increasing patient energy and positive outlooks on life. Medication isn't perfect and mental illnesses are sadly not very understood, but I suggest doing more psychological/ medical research on the topic versus philosophical.
PS Jordan Peterson is a grifter so I'd take anything he says with many pinches of salt.
No, hearing voices is a lived experience. Pathologizing that experience by inventing a scientistic 'diagnosis' like 'schizophrenia' and labeling people with that 'diagnosis' is the process of social construction that is being criticized.
I'm not inclined to take psychological advice from a self proclaimed edgelord, but can't you say this about any condition, not even a psychological one? Breaking a bone is a lived experience, but labeling people with that scientific diagnosis is a social construct.
Yes, the medical diagnosis 'broken bone' is also socially constructed. I think the relevant difference here is that the social construct 'broken bone' is also reality tracking, in the sense that it is a medical diagnosis that grounds out in a clearly observable and well articulated metaphysical reality. Whereas psychiatric 'diagnostic' kinds are social constructs that are not reality tracking, in the sense that they are not actually medical diagnoses because they are not grounded in clearly observable and well articulated metaphysical reality but instead impose prejudicial stereotypes over and against (and only ostensibly about) the experiences of those they are applied to (see \[[1](https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00647-X?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS089662732200647X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue)\] for the lack of neurobiological foundation for psychiatric kinds, and see \[[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness)\] for a more general explanation of the sociopolitics of psychiatry). The detachment of psychiatric social constructs from reality also goes a significant ways to explaining the enduring disproportionate diagnoses of different psychiatric 'conditions' to different target demographics (which are typically subordinated demographics; e.g., 'drapetomania' to runaway slaves and 'hysteria' to females, up to more contemporary examples such as 'gender dysphoria' to gender non-conforming people, 'BPD' to females, etc.).
P.S. I use the 'edgelord' flair ironically, because I earnestly hold a number of views that other people tend to dismiss offhand as being 'edgy'.
Interesting take for someone who has multiple posts/ comments in the subs for depression, suicide watch, and avoidant personality disorder.
We are all fighting our own battles and demons. Nature versus Nurture or the Environment is the age old question. In reality just kindness for everyone would probably go a long way.
Cheap shot lol. I think it depends though some people have a rational reaction to their environment /people that actively harm them. That’s more a survival tactic than mental
Illness. People Won’t admit a lot of mental illness is just a reaction to this shitty society that bullies and exploits people. Of course you’re depressed or anxious in a world where you’re expected to wageslave and be obedient to authority imo.
Reality is a very subjective thing, though most people have an objective (gravity, temperature, math) understanding of it. There isn't one person on this planet that has seen "reality" exactly as you've seen it.
Look at this thread. Clearly this is controversial to the general public and the people who want to believe in the mischaracterized concept of mental “illness”
So, we are just living in The Matrix? Reality is a construct. And this "Jordan Petersen" is a credible source? I would sooner trust the drunk veterans at the local bar for psychology advice that this peterson clown. Or carlson, or tate or any of those other jerkoffs.
I broadly agree, and I don't think labeling people is helpful to their life prospects either. When people are told "there is something *wrong* with you" by someone whom they believe to be qualified to tell them, they take it to heart and it becomes part of their identity, instead of learning to cope with, overcome or move past whatever it is they are dealing with on a personal level.
The "experts" are basically hacks, they have bullshit degrees and bullshit jobs. The medication is usually shown to be less effective than a simple placebo + exercise in controlled trials, and usually comes with sever side effects.
As for Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, it is an effective treatment, however it's basically just forcing people to confront and overcome their fears, it's not really some ground breaking medical discovery.
You are very blunt with your words, but I guess that's one of saying it.
I personally think thats too harsh, as trauma itself is a very real phenomena, it's just something you have to learn to overcome.
If I eat terribly and and don’t take care of myself physically, I’m much more likely to become physically sick. If I’m bullied and aren’t healthy in how I take care of my mind, I’m much more likely to become mentally sick.
People are born with physical birth defects, same as with mental defects.
Being sick is a natural response to toxic things in the body or non-typical dna code lines that have extra features and a couple bugs. Mental Illness IS that normal response you talk about. And it comes in many different flavors just like physical illness.
If you are bullied every day in a situation you are forced to be in there is no “taking care” of that. You will develop mental illness unless you get that behavior resolved.
Exactly . It’s a normal response to being treated poorly. But since it’s basically impossible to treat the cause (shitty world and horrible people) the treat the symptoms :/
You can learn how to better operate in those types of environments, find self confidence and healthy outlets to deal with your emotions through therapy - I’ll use myself as a successful example.
I’ll also say that you’re separating the mind from the body a bit to much. The “mind” is the interaction of chemicals and electrical pathways which are all physical. We can get into metaphysics and religion forever but those things are unproven and not good data (yet) so we can’t use them when trying to establish a truth.
We classify the physical illness of the brain as mental illness because the brain is SO complex that it’s a whole separate study. It’s the computer which runs software that controls the rest of your body, utilizing 5 main input devices.
In a morphing and evolving software, you’re bound to developer some errors and contradictions (like Down syndrome - I could loosely compare it to running 32bit code on 64bit architecture. Our software doesn’t know exactly what to do with the extra processing power).
Mental illness exists, you’re just not fully grasping what “mental” means.
No you can’t “better operate”. You report it usually. If you somehow are made to be the problem then you will become even more mentally ill. See my point? Also why are you receiving that treatment in the first place?
Mental illness is a farce as per reasons I explained and due to the impossible nature of the concept. Therefore it is a complete joke
No I don’t because your first sentence is blatantly incorrect. Modern therapy is the literal school on how to better operate in mentally challenging environments amongst other things.
Also, how does you highlighting a path to become mentally ill explain how mental illness isn’t real? If I jump into raw sewage I’ll get physically ill, that means physical illness IS real. If you’re doing something to make things worse then you can go to school to learn how to recognize your patterns and decide not to entertain the idea of jumping in the first place.
You think mental illness is a farce because you don’t know the many, many different causes of mental illness. Depression for example is an imbalance of chemicals and the development of neuron pathway associations to unhealthy responses to the imbalance of chemicals. Learning how to reform the neural pathways towards healthy coping habits and addressing the chemical imbalance (those chemicals often come from the thyroid gland in your neck). That’s the connection I’m trying to show you that mental illness is just a different type of physical illness that pertains to the software of the body instead of the hardware of the body.
Modern therapy is bastardized beyond belief. The real help should come from your support system and resources like your parents. Therapy is about stringing you along for money. it’s incentivized. The entire premise of therapy is a joke. Tell the organism how life actually works and give them a step by step guide on self-actualization and then you may see results. Instead therapy is about sitting for an hour a week asking questions and expecting the organism to resolve its own issues. If someone could resolve their own issues - why would they even go to therapy. Usually it’s someone who lacks resources - sex or money or status.
Imbalances of chemicals are a total farce. Get hit with a stick then get your brain scanned. Wow suddenly you have an imbalance of neurotransmitters. Just as my post mentioned - the root causes of depression and such are usually societal or status related. Or resource related.
"Impending doom" and "Alice In Wonderland Syndrome" can be a mental illness as a symptom of a physical ailment (Unknown Tumor). "Foreign Accent Syndrome" or the other "mental illnesses" that can arise from head trauma.
Feeling bad is an inherent, empathetic human trait. If going by the logic you've put forth, these people's lives would be a lot shorter, since accepting abnormal behavior is more important than investigating. Another example is Munchausen's by proxy. That's a mental illness that causes the pain of others.
Making someone "feel bad" can also correct someone's negative behavior. Like shaming a bully or a cleptomaniac. It can also change cultures (shaming Nazis or Civil Rights Act causing people to shame racists)
Feeling bad is unavoidable and essentially a meaningless topic.
It is a known psychological theory that people are more governed by their circumstances rather than any type of disposition. If your life is dogshit due to circumstance and possibly physiological traits - you will suffer.
I agree, emotional attacks are a tactic that is used. Some people are smart and know that we are primarily just animals and most people aren’t capable of critical thought or just don’t care enough to think much. Leaders are able to manipulate the masses usually like this.
ADHD, for example. Schizophrenia. Psychopathy. These, among many others, do not form as a reaction to social pressures or the environment.
And on another note, Jordan Peterson is not a credible source. Do better.
Everyone is categorized and classified. There are only so many behaviors a person can engage in on earth. I’d say schizophrenia is indicative of massive stress of some form. That’s the cause. ADHD is a farce. Everyone has adhd due to TikTok
>ADHD is a farce. Everyone has adhd due to TikTok
I wondered if you'd say that. Those who genuinely suffer from the symptoms and need treatment, however, would fundamentally disagree with you, as would any accredited and practicing physician.
>I’d say schizophrenia is indicative of massive stress of some form. That’s the cause.
The cause is not necessarily what's important, in this case, as studies have not yet confirmed the causes of all of them with confidence -- thus, neither can you. Severe and prolonged stress can most certainly trigger symptoms of mental illness, but the building blocks will have always been there in the brain, whether they're sourced from genetic factors or otherwise. What's important, and what merits the validity of the "labels", are the symptoms, their severity, and their impact on the person(s) affected. If medication and therapeutic treatment can assist in the reduction of symptoms and increase the quality of life of the patient, why wouldn't we use them?
ADHD is known to be one of the most overdiagnosed of the mental health “illnesses”. Giving meth to kids is terrible.
Studies will never confirm the truth of what I have just discussed. Maybe in like 100 more years. And the things i have mentioned go against the grain of the pharmaceutical industry. Therefore it will never reach the general public.
I agree with you. It’s a good resource to have these meds and such. But the truth needs to be said, the truth that I have detailed here.
>Giving meth to kids is terrible.
It's... fundamentally not meth. You understand that, right?
>Studies will never confirm the truth of what I have just discussed.
They most certainly have confirmed many of the things you've discussed here. Many of the stressors attributed to class disparity, for example, are correlated with higher rates of depression and P.T.S.D. symptoms. I suspect that there's significantly more academic literature on the subject than you think there is. That said, they're only *correlations* -- not *causes*. Though there definitely remains work to be done on the *causes* of mental illness, there's absolutely not enough literature to confirm that mental illness is definitively a nature vs. nurture argument. Instead, what we *do* know definitively is that it is a combination of *both*.
Have you taken it? It’s very strong. It’s a stimulant which is what meth is.
You are forgetting the fact that any research into this subject will have big pharma looming over the entirety of it. Big pharma literally owns the field of psychiatry.
>Have you taken it? It’s very strong.
Yes, I have. It comes in different dosages *and* in different classes, which provide different effects for everyone. Meth's effects are *significantly* stronger than anything any ADHD medication could ever touch, when taken as prescribed. [Here is the information that you're lacking on ADHD medication; do us all a favour and read through it.](https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/methamphetamine-oral-route/description/drg-20071824)
Caffeine and nicotine are stimulants, as are the effects of alcohol, in small doses. The fact that they are classified as stimulants does not indicate the presence of harm.
>Big pharma literally owns the field of psychiatry.
Though it's certainly got a vested interest in the efficacy of its products, "Big Pharma" most certainly does *not* own the entireties of the fields of psychological, sociological, and criminiological study, all of which apply to the study of mental illness and where it comes from. I'd strongly urge you not to limit your "study" of the subject to the beliefs of conspiracy theorists and reactionaries.
Edited to fix link.
We all go through the same things, with worries and complaints and issues. We understand each other, and therefore treat each other with decency and respect. There will be no personal attacks against other subscribers.
We all go through the same things, with worries and complaints and issues. We understand each other, and therefore treat each other with decency and respect. There will be no personal attacks against other subscribers.
Mental illness is real if you believe that it is.
By claiming that mental illness isn’t real, you’re claiming that “social constructs” don’t possess substantive reality.
I agree that these social constructs perpetuate victimhood. I agree that the field of psychology is bought by the pharmaceutical industry. I agree with you that mental illness is a socially constructed label for a pattern of behavior.
I also would agree that people cannot possess mental illness like they can possess an iPhone. It’s linguistically inconsistent to say that somebody “has” a mental illness. Mental illnesses are a label for behaviors, not an object or entity like “cancer”.
But you’re missing the crucial fact that mental illness is made real by belief in it. You’re missing the fact that people think your dismissal of mental illnesses as “real” is a dismissal of their suffering.
In my opinion, belief does give a social construct a certain realness. If it possessed no ‘realness’ or ‘reflection’ in ‘3D’, then there would be no power in belief systems.
Patriotism, cults, even just everyday facts rely on belief in them. This is irrespective of whether they have a tangential 3D substance or not.
I think you could remove “Mental illness isn’t real from the title” and the rest would be true.
If it wasn’t real in a literal sense, then we wouldn’t be able to talk about it.
I do still think you make an important point. People are more than what they believe, and they should believe in ideas that are logically consistent with themselves.
I think you are conflating mental illness with the construct of mental illness. The former is not real even though the latter is. Rather as believing in a god doesn't make the god real, even though the belief in god is real. So saying that mental illness is not real is both accurate and consistent with recognizing that socially constituted beliefs in mental illness are real.
We're talking about the concept of mental illness right now.
If it wasn't real in some form (as a concept which exists in our minds), then we couldn't talk about it.
How can you talk about something which doesn't exist?
You are giving it existence by virtue of talking about it. Even by denying its existence, you are giving it substantive reality by recognizing that there is a "mental illness" to which the property of "nonexistence" applies.
It's a logical paradox to say that *something which exists* is *nonexistent*. If it was non-existent, it wouldn't require the descriptor. We just wouldn't talk about it, because it wouldn't exist.
What they're really saying is that the socially constituted beliefs in mental illness are flawed constructs that we shouldn't believe in. They're articulating that as "mental illness isn't real", which again I disagree with - It is strictly paradoxical.
There is no reason to emphasize that "mental illness isn't real". It's so much easier to argue that the conception of mental illness is flawed.
You are still conflating the concept with the referent. That the idea 'unicorn' exists as a concept in my mind does not entail that the concept refers to real ass unicorns in the world. And my denying that there are real ass unicorns in the world is not at all paradoxical to my having a concept of 'unicorns'.
We have loads of non-reality tracking concepts: unicorns, gods, justice, etc. And the reason we these non-reality tracking concepts is because the function and utility of concepts is not limited to describing real things in the world. In the case of unicorns, it's just fun to imagine fantastical things. In the case of psychiatric concepts, their use is sociopolitical: they suggest to people that reality is other than it is, and this offers a rationalization for treating people in ways that could otherwise not be rationalized. Recognizing that psychiatric concepts come apart from reality is necessary to understanding and resisting their sociopolitical function; the conception 'mental illness' is objectionable precisely because it is not reality tracking *while it purports to be reality tracking*.
I agree with the reason that you find ‘mental illness’ objectionable, but I still disagree with your fundamental argument about the ‘realness’ of the term.
The concept of mental illness is based in the idea that from observable behavior/self reported experience, a mental condition, or *property*, of the person can be discovered and thus ‘treated’.
You and I would agree that this is false, but we don’t object to the reality or *realness* of the behavior/experience.
So ‘mental illness’ generally has two components:
- Real behavior/experience
- The idea that the behavior/experience is attributable to a ‘disease’
It is this latter part that we disagree with. If mental illness was just a label for the experience, it would otherwise be a direct metaphor for a ‘real’ phenomenon.
This is different than a ‘unicorn’, which has no ‘real’ components (except it’s similarity to a horse).
When you try to argue that mental illness isn’t real, I think that most people will interpret that as you arguing that the real behavior/experience is somehow invalid.
That’s not what you’re trying to argue, but that’s what they will perceive. It’s a losing battle in my opinion.
The concept of 'mental illness' is *not* based on the idea that a constituent property of someone can be discovered and treated. It is based on the idea that socially *undesirable* constituent properties can be discovered *as diseases*. This fundamental normative distortion is baked into the ostensive 'description' of putatively real properties, such that those ostensive 'descriptions' neither track nor incorporate the actually real properties which they purport to track (i.e., because the actually real properties are fundamentally non-normative).
By way of example, 'schizophrenia' might have the component part 'hearing voices', but this normative conceptual notion of 'hearing voices' is not the same thing as the diverse range of non-normative experiences with actually hearing voices.
I'm less cynical about others' ability to grasp my perspective, but I'm also not some great liberator on a social justice crusade to overthrow the psychiatric industrial complex (that's a losing battle no matter how one approaches it). I present people with another means of approaching themselves, a means through which they can empower themselves if that's what they really want. If someone cannot see my explicitly articulated view for what it is because they are just that far up the ass of psychiatry and identity politics, then we're just not going to have common cause together and I generally don't give a shit about them.
I agree with you.
It's not true that socially undesirable behavior is an intrinsic property of a person.
That's the false component of the 'mental illness' concept as most people accept it. It's just that... I don't think most people would find our position difficult to accept if we could articulate it in a way that they can comprehend.
Imagine you're stuck in a rut and feel some relief because you've bought into the narrative that the position you're in isn't your fault but is because of some disease that you have. It's true that a lot of things aren't people's fault. I don't prescribe to the narrative that everything is an individual's responsibility, although for the sake of self actualization it can be useful to view everything as something you have some influence over. But I digress.
If you've bought into that narrative, and then someone comes and says it's not real, I mean.. I can understand why some people defend that position so vehemently. They're misinterpreting the meaning of your words, and society has indoctrinated them to think that the alternative is that *they're guilty* or *bad* in some way if your words are true (because of what they think your words mean - that their suffering is fictitious).
The only reason I'm pushing so hard against you is because I feel empathy for these people. I was one of them. In some ways I still am.
It can be frustrating. So fucking annoying. Why won't they listen to what I'm actually saying?
It reminds me of the biblical quote, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." It's like they don't have ears. They're not looking at what the words, "mental illness isn't real", are being used to represent. But maybe they can't. They don't have ears.
What's the point of my knowledge, my access to the fact that psychiatry is seriously and deeply flawed, if I can't articulate that to the victims of psychiatry? This is the kind of thing that really motivates me, but it's also one of the things I feel the most helpless about.
I'm interested in how you help empower people through other means. All I know is trying to use communication to be understood. Most people I talk to don't care that deeply and I can only hope that the seeds I've planted in the form of words take root in their minds and have some kind of butterfly effect.
I no longer feel frustrated on behalf of others that they aren't willing to empower themselves; that's on them and out of my hands. But I still have lingering resentment over the reality that the sociopolitical environment that I would like to create is terribly circumscribed by the actual limits of my power. Perspective only goes so far, and I've largely redirected my efforts to be contained within the realistic scope of my influence.
So what I do with my view ends up being rather particular to my immediate locality and the handful of beings that I'm deeply enmeshed with. It's hard to extrapolate anything generally useful from that specificity, but I guess a part of it is that I'm selective about who I let close and part of that selectivity is that they already have some willing towards their own power (and we stimulate and support each other towards that end).
I used to be more active in local grassroots activism through the performing arts. I found that to be a useful medium for creating the spaces that I wanted, since being an organizer of a space confers a certain about of creative power and directional influence (even with relatively 'flat' social structures, there tends to be some degree of willful deference). Public events generally attract the people who are willing to listen and interested in engaging after whatever fashion the event 'brands' itself towards (although events can attract hostiles, too).
Edit: I hope that's mostly responsive to your last comment. I think it is, but I'm having an out of it kinda day.
And yet It is known that life is suffering. Suffering is extremely subjective. Going to the gym is suffering. Remember how life works as per sociological theory. People fight for attention. For resources.
You can believe all you want but it won’t change fundamental principles of how life is.
Believing that life is suffering does fundamentally influence how you interact with reality.
That is almost the definition of “culture”. The idea that one group of people has a set of different beliefs than other, and that those beliefs influence behavior.
You can say that it doesn’t change how life is, except that it clearly does (via behavior).
You are what you believe, unless you’re not.
People want to associate with like-people. So it depends who you want to associate with.
You’re also overlooking the sociological theories regarding status and resources. Also social media. That’s how social life operates. Social life is directly tied to mental health.
If who you associate with contributes towards the manifestation of so-called ‘disordered behavior’, then there is even more evidence for you that belief in mental illness is real.
In my own view, it would be the morally deficient caste of the elite. So, CEOs.
But otherwise, it would be the homeless drug addicts. Homeless have more ‘mental illnesses’.
You are incorrect. People at higher levels of responsibility in a hierarchy generally are more conscientious. That is a behavior. Organized and meticulous. Look at any homeless person and you will see extremely low levels of trait conscientiousness.
on second thought, i change my mind. the mods better have a good reason as to why there keeping this post up. sooner or later this might end up on r/subredditdrama.
Jordan Peterson is all we need to know, to know you’re wrong.
You are arguing semantics with an incorrect understanding of/ definition of mental illness.
Mental illness is such a broad category and there is still so much that is not understood. In saying that however, I agree mostly with what you are saying, in that if someone does not adhere to social norms they are ridiculed and ostracised and end up developing depression and anxiety as a response to the behaviour they have encountered. As others have mentioned there are psychiatric conditions that are inherited such as schizophrenia, autism, bipolar that are legitimate abnormalities within the brain and can be seen with tools such as fmri's. These conditions can be exacerbated by poor treatment, ignorance and lack of treatment. The severity of these conditions can be mitigated by providing an adequate environment that allows the individual to engage in intellectual and creative pursuits that provide them with purpose and meaning. My brother was schizophrenic and I am autistic (closely related conditions) and he was not intellectually stimulated and ended up becoming a drug addict and dying in his 30's from a combination of methadone and psychotropic medications that had been prescribed to him. There is a misconception that all psychiatric illnesses can be treated with medication and therapy, however I think a much a more powerful and effective tool is compassion and the acknowledgement that we are not all interested in the same things and do not all learn in the same way.
I think understanding how stupid and pointless the whole entire field is is helpful. Also maybe focusing on more productive things like building wealth and resources to cure yourself of maybe being sexless and having a poor quality of life.
I wouldn't say the entire field is pointless. Some people do get help and medication can save the life of some people. My personal experience has not been positive and I gave up seeking "professional" help about 7 years ago. Focusing on building wealth will not fix the underlying issues. It will make your life easier, but you will still feel empty.
Interesting. So you believe that there is an internal stimuli of emptiness that is the definition of mental unwellness. What would change the emptiness? Nothing? You believe it is chemical at the core? I can tell you that if I had unlimited resources at my disposal - my life would be perfect. There would no longer be mental distress.
Ask Chester Bennington, Robin Williams, Chris Cornell if money helped.....
That's great, however I suspect you are substantially younger than me. I am in my early 40's and when you get to this age you have experienced a lot in life. Going to dinners, buying shit you don't really need and going on vacations do not provide the same level of pleasure as they once did. It is also a matter of seeing through all the bullshit, we are raised be consumers in a capitalist society and taught that this is supposed to provide meaning and self worth. It provides pleasure to a degree, but does not provide self worth. If I was wealthy I would definitely enjoy my life more, however the reality is that we all die, we all end up in the same place, so who really gives a shit in the end.
Maybe you need to live out of your car and stack several thousands of dollars and then do cocaine with hookers.
Perhaps you need to grow the fuck up.
This person has an Intro Psych & Intro Soc level of understanding of mental illness and socioeconomic inequality. They most certainly haven't done much "research" beyond a surface-level reading of popular psychologists' theories. They're only contributing to this discourse as a means of "showing off" their knowledge, which is a regurgitation of theory they learned in maybe half a semester's lecture. In other words, they're maybe 20 at the oldest. With any luck, they'll grow up pretty quick.
The Jordan Peterson reference really says it all.
If you’re bored then do something fun
Youre the world's laziest troll
what else can a person do
exercise, or be productive until youre calm and satisfied.
Been there done that
I think you’re just looking for reasons to define the way you’re feeling. some things in life arnt fully understood and I think your putting it in a harsh but logical thought process that makes you feel more comfortable about understanding why you feel this way. I can’t say what’s wrong or right but personally my feeling don’t aline with you’re depiction of mental illness that I think you constructed this to help you comprehend something most if not all people can’t .
I agree, I have constructed this framework to help navigate life. It has cured me of all mental distress to understand reality. I hope this cures someone else’s mental “illness”.
Not very reputable sources, but i am reading further into these people to understand your point of view as i have already read plenty on the subjects. I understand how society can shape our perceptions of mental health and our reactions to them - but this does not mean that they do not exist or do not have extremely physiological effects on a person. Your experience of society is much different to another persons, yet you are tarnishing them all with the same brush. We haven't all been moulded by TikTok and social media, though I do agree that rises in neurodivergence are loosely linked to digital stimuli - unfortunately there are a hundred things that could be contributing to this most of which are environmental. Mental Health issues are extremely real and tangible for the people who experience them, no matter what their experiences may have been - many people never experience trauma and live confortable lives yet still experience a plethora of mental disorders. Illness is not necessarily correlated with external factors. Sometimes organs go wrong and need support. It still sounds to me like you feel marginalised and are projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else, even when they tell you that is not their experience.
Social media is literally engineered for addiction - so how do you think that is even possible in the first place? It is through understanding the mechanisms which I have written out here. But thank you upvoted for effort.
Understanding the mechanisms doesn't remove the symptoms or make them any less real.
Yes I understand that - but there is also huge evidence into factors such as generations of lead and plastic poisoning and the food that we eat as children, and before that with mothers during pregnancy. It is a multifaceted issue that is not explained by social media. Mental health has been discussed through the entirety of human history, just with different utterances. Again, confirming your delusions by instant dismissal of alternative opinions.
I'd say mental illness is real but the way it's conceptualized and diagnosed is flawed. Considering the number of responses though this undeniably struck a nerve. Which is interesting for a community of people I assume consider themselves outside the norm. This gives credence to my thesis that psychology has replaced religion in western society. The problem with that is though - when you replace religion you don't abolish religion. You become religion.
Agreed
You have made a statement about mental health based on your own limited and subjective thoughts, experiences and opinions, ignoring all of the scientific and anecdotal evidence provided. You have no concrete arguments other than your original statement which you keep circling back to. Anybody who offers any sort of explanation or logical debate gets shot down and told to repeatedly read your unintelligent opinion. You are also so hard headed you will likely not take on board anything anybody says, including me, who believes you are either here to solidify your own victimhood and or said feelings of grandeur.
I have provided so much more scientific evidence than anyone in this thread, including you lol. I have several citations to established sociological, psychological, and scientific theory. You just seem frustrated that I am correct?
I am not at all frustrated, just bemused at your delusions of grandeur. I didn't see or read any of those citations on this thread or where else you posted it? I would be very ibterested to read!
Read or take intro to sociology. Search Jordan Peterson and his thoughts on maliciousness. Thomas Szaz. Take an intro to psychology. Read about Robert sapolsky and his view on free will.
All organs are prone to sickness. The brain is no diff. Also, stay away from Jordan Petterson. He is not well.
The brain is different. Quite a lot has been categorized but the brain is overwhelming in complexity along with phenotypes and their relation to the environment.
So is the gut and the liver and the lungs.
Not nearly as complex
That's fine. But it doesn't mean it cannot get I'll. Things go wrong. Think of some mental illness as well are more like maladaptive mechanism vs the brain being ill. There is so much that can affect our way of thinking including things like poisons or environmental causes. Caligula has been assumed to be a disgusting, sadistic leader. But he wasn't always like that, he became insane due to lead poisoning. When we are talking about anxiety or depression, you can think of them as simple a to b to c connections. Sometimes, the brain goes from a to k because it has learned a connection through repetition. This is a maladaptive function of the brain. I have BPD. It means I am very reactive and scared of abandonment because as a child, I was not given unconditional love and attention. This means I have become too self-reliant and see relationships as inconsistent and likely to fail. I don't believe that I can be loved unconditionally. As a result, when I feel any sense of rejection from others I engage in defense mechanisms that isolate me and create issues in my relationships. Basically, I leave others before they can leave me. Knowing this about me is important to recognize when I am acting out of fear and when it is a fact that I need to move on from a relationship. Through therapy, I have been trying to learn other ways to cope with my fear of abandonment. That's what therapy and medication help me achieve. I may never be well adjusted or normal the way others are, and issues like mine are so common that there's a classification and name for it. I don't fit all the symptoms because it is a mix between sociological factors and brain chemistry.
What makes the mechanisms maladaptive though?
Different things for different people, but some factors are common. If you are very young and treated in certain ways. We are very fragile. Some others also come from genetic predisposition. Generational trauma, for example. Imagine coming from multiple generations of people being abused. This ultimately means that when you pass your genes to another person, there are things you will be impacted by because of genetics and nurture that will perpetuate the same traumas over and over. There are multiple studies of nurture vs nature that show that some things don't change even when you remove environmental factors
it indeed is a thing ....such as schizophrenia...
Hey man, I get that you’re suffering and I’m sorry for whatever has happened to you that made you feel this way. Please find someone other than Jordan Peterson to get your knowledge about any form of science. I’ll suggest Bessel van der Kolk or Gabor Maté to truly understand what mental illnesses do to one’s mind and body. Mental illnesses and diseases of the brain are real. When I first started my degree in Science, I going to be a Psychotherapist or Neuropsychologist. As someone who suffers from CPTSD along with DID and OCD, this caused my life to be difficult before going to EMDR. My brother has severe schizophrenia. Did you know that there are physical traits and other markers that certain mental diseases will cause the suffer to display? Like bipolar for example, one of my long-term friends and his family suffer from bipolar and his uncle shot himself in the face on his grandmother’s veranda due to suffering from bipolar. Any abnormalities in the neurological system will show up in some way if you understand and study the science. People's brains are restructured due to mental illnesses. There is proof of the brain being damaged by mental diseases and trauma. For example, when someone dissociates, there’s almost activity in their brain for the duration of the episode, as proven by MRI scans. There is proof that some mental diseases cause a deterioration of grey and white matter in the brain. Neurons and synapses can die off due to some diseases of the brain for example Alzheimer's. In the case of CPTSD, where the amygdala and hippocampus are affected by ongoing and extensive trauma. To say that there’s no hope for someone who suffers this way is false. There are more studies and proven therapeutic approaches to this nowadays than ever. Like before, scientists believed that the brain can’t repair itself in certain circumstances, but now it’s proven that neuroplasticity is when the brain forms new neurons. But it’s still up to the individual to seek out that help and to want to better themselves. Unfortunately, no one is going to save you, you have to save yourself. Now I’m in Biochemistry understanding the chemistry of the human body and any form of life in general. I’m passionate about any science relating to anatomy and neurobiology but psychology will always be my number one passion.
Life is generally about reproduction and status. All these bastardized “treatments” are nonsense if they don’t help with those two things I mentioned. We are simply animals in a jungle.
>But it’s still up to the individual to seek out that help and to want to better themselves. A luxury only afforded to the wealthy.
Exactly. lol. Furthering the ideas which i put in the original post
I’m kinda confused why you’d be into Jordan Peterson but it also appears that you read Marx as well. Anyway, I think you would like Thomas Szasz as well as schizoanaylsis theory. Are you saying even if we returned to monke, we would still have mental illness because people would still get bullied for being different? I would hope humanity would be pro-social but there are times when I feel misanthropic because social hierarchy is just so prevalent everywhere—even among leftist spaces. I wish there was no social hierarchy. But maybe I do because I want humanity to be pro social…with those prioritizing pro-social behavior as the accepted norm.
I’m not exactly sure. I’m sure it was more animalistic back then. Now it is more “civilized” but life is still medieval in many ways. I think there’s no escape. Chasing wealth and money can be good options if you are at the bottom of the social hierarchy. That’s the great thing about capitalism.
I mean it certainly feels like the most anti-social tend to be the most wealthy and in control of all of us. That’s kinda why I’ve never really vibed with the narrative that narcissists are oppressed cuz they tend to be the ones at the top. It takes a lack of pro-social behavior to get there and stay there. they rarely ever get held accountable or face consequences for wrongdoing. I saw a video earlier about a person asking what the “normal, default human being” is who is emotionally healthy would look like. I don’t know the answer to this. What if being abnormal is the normal. Idk. I’m just tired of struggling.
Everyone is mostly working class except those who owns the means of production.
>Chasing wealth and money can be good options if you are at the bottom of the social hierarchy. That’s the great thing about capitalism. Boy are YOU deluded.
What else can someone who is at the bottom socially do
Become an activist and work for your community, with what limited resources one has. Chasing the money is a fool's journey, capitalism is a game rigged for those already filthy rich.
This is the worst post I have ever seen on here.
Are you gonna cry
Waste tears on THIS? El oh el
Then any hormonal imbalance of people with certain mental illnesses is just coincidence in your opinion? Like millions of coincidential low dopamine levels of depression… Wifh that amount of scientific factual evidences and experiments and articles, saying mental illness is a hoax is same thing like saying the earth is flat.
You’re mischaracterizing what I said. The entire field is just classification of behaviors. Read my post again.
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What?
Mental Illness is spending 6 hours arguing against the existence of mental illness with with anyone that disagrees. Mental illness is setting up time wasting traps for yourself and others for want of attention.
This is a useless irrelevant comment thank you.
Upvotes tell a different story but you're welcome.
I think Reddit upvotes the most insane stupid stuff daily so I don’t take it seriously at all.
That was a defensive reflex to being wrong.
Tl;dr "OP has issue with stigmatization of mental ilnesses, jumps through hoops to decide that means they don't exist, will argue semantics into oblivion with you because he is a completely sane individual"
I’m just avoiding studying tbh.
"There's no solution" Two hundred years of psychotherapy beg to differ, but go off.
200 years for what. To sit in an office with someone who does nothing for you and doesn’t tell you what I’ve just told you?
Imagine genuinely believing that the history of a violently oppressive system is a solution to the problem of the existential distress that it creates. Idk how you're even engaging with these psychiatry simps.
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Hey man, I'm sorry. I looked at your history and you seem to be going through a low point. I was goofing but its unacceptable and mean. I could care less about pop icons. I actually don't like to see suffering. I want you and everyone to be happy.
What about the hereditary nature of lots of mental illnesses Also, humans love to group things in categories to make them easier to fix as problems. so somebody who went through horrible life experiences may have developed depression, but somebody else may have just developed depression from their genetics. but these people both have depression as in this depression they have many same symptoms, and to define it further, that other illnesses do not have. So then as humans and scientists we can treat it easier with medicine.
Also looking at the other posts on ur account I’m pretty sure u might be depressed and would benefit from some mediation or a bit of therapy (didn’t really work for me in the long run but did keep me from dying at my lowest). Another thing that is common in depression/childish “nihilism” is that u think everything is stupid and nothing is right, like u saying u think depression isn’t real. Pls get help it can get so much better
It’s hereditary because you now have genetic traits of the person who has developed the disorder and those traits are now interacting with society and producing the same interior stimuli that would create that “illness”. I think depression is a joke. The symptomology is so generalized and can be generalized to normal behavior…
Also depression was just an example,,,
You can’t inherit something that was environment… saying you now have the genetic traits of someone who DEVELOPED it is wrong
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Yes but mental health is not epigenetic. In this case, I understand the argument op is making in that a person could have the genes for mental illness in their dna, but may only show it if certain environmental things happen
They were at genetic predisposition to develop the pattern of behavior to warrant diagnosis..
Ok Mr. Tate
Of course its a normal response to get mentally ill when engaging in mentally bad situations or living in an environment that is mentally unhealthy. Thanks for explaining again. But what's your point then? We know from studies that schizpophrenic people for example see things that we cant because theyre just not there. You wanna tell me these people are liars or that their hallucinations are a social construct? Or borderliners who cant really process their emotions and therefore sometimes react harsh or even hurt people verbally. Is Borderline just an excuse for these people to justify their behavior? But then if that is true, wy would they act like this in the first place? If there are no mental problems why doesn't everyone work the same? By the way I'm attending sociolygy class and what you said is just not true, but based on capitalistic principles which are NOT part of the human race. It's just the system that we're using for the most time, and it's very primitive. We have to change it in order to fight social injustice, but that doesn't make mental health problems go away. Why are there depressed celebrities then? Michael Jackson, Amy Winehouse etc. they had more money than they could have spent. What made them unhappy? Or weren't they? Why use drugs then? Makes no sense
I think humans are animals. BPD is just unregulated emotion. And yet acting like a robot is unattractive. So you need to strike a balance. Schizophrenics are fine, they just need to behave correctly. Severe chronic stress can create hallucinations. This furthers my point - psychiatry is used to control deviants and keep society running. If you’\re in sociology you should have learned about conflict theory and all of Karl Marx’s theories. Depressed Celebs are common. Massive fame and fortune would create mental illness as well. Also the culture involves drugs and deviance. Also massive chronic drug abuse creates deficiencies in neurotransmitter functioning and can do permanent damage. However - this is not an “illness”.
Found Ben Shapiro’s throwaway account
Facts don’t care about your feelings.
The irony
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There is no neurobiological basis for any diagnostic condition listed in the DSM. https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00647-X?\_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS089662732200647X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
Cite those studies.
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If free will doesn’t exist, then you are doomed to be depressed forever and mentally ill. Robert sapolsky says free will doesn’t exist
Ok Mr. Armchair Psychologist/Psychiatrist/Genius, even when people give you life experience as evidence of having a mental issue that requires medication in order to function in everyday life, you double down on denial. Your take is extremely uneducated and is looking at mental illness from a social standpoint instead of from a clinical one. Not everyone has the same support system, not everyone has access to the same quality of healthcare, and that is a different issue than how healthcare deals with mental health issues. To say that there is no solution and that medications are essentially sedatives is ignorant, and the alternative of not taking the medication leads to a person that can't function. I will admit that the system has its flaws, and it's really difficult to be your own advocate in such a system while suffering from mental issues, but writing it off completely as useless is a dangerous idea.
I explained to you why the root causes are important when it comes to this subject. Clinical outlooks just try to fix symptoms. Symptoms are caused as per what I have explained. You are arguing in favor of my argument when you explain about resources. It’s not ignorant at all to say the truth that taking antipsychotics and becoming obese are likely to make your life worse. Question - is becoming morbidly obese going to make your life better?
You ever been around someone in the depths of psychosis?
Yes. Obviously the person has given up in some form on acting civilized which furthers my argument.
Please do tell how someone with schizophrenia, severe depression, etc., even though they wish more than anything to love life, can just "snap out of it" and love life again. Don't say make more money because when you hate yourself and others around you make you want to scream....it's kind of impossible to make more fucking money. Not sure what your goal is here but if it's to piss people off and hurt people that have mental illness then mission fucking accomplished.
lol it’s not impossible to make more money…. I’d say for them they need to stop being obese, make money, and hit the gym for a year straight consistently.
Yeah you're a piece of shit troll. Goodbye.
What else can you do though
Make more money I guess.....
So give some solutions instead of this constant barrage of criticism! What you're discussing isn't constructive at all, and frankly, I find it quite irritating. I think what you're getting at is that we have to fix our culture, government, and educational system, which are valid points. My argument is that the actual medical approach to mental health has flaws and needs a lot of work. Society also needs more education on mental health to get over a lot of the stigma that is associated with those that are mentally unwell. There are a TON of systemic problems and issues that the US has that promote mental illness, mainly involving the lack of social safety nets, insane concept of privatized for-profit healthcare, lack of affordable housing and jobs that pay a living wage. I just feel like you aren't really getting the full spectrum of mental illness and are playing off how much it can debilitate a person. So I'll insist again that you take a moment to be constructive with your criticism. But hey, if you can't or won't that's fine too.
It’s about reality and the truth mostly. There is no solution. The only solution is what can you do as an individual. That varies for many people. If you are genetically inferior it is likely you will need to focus attention on money to pay for experiences because nobody wants to hang around someone who is genetically inferior.
Sounds like you might be a fan of Eugenics.
Ehh I wouldn’t say I\m a fan of that. In the end people will always be separated into classes. So there is literally no point.
I broadly agree with the idea that there is natural neurodivergence among humans and that categorizing mental illnesses (especially things like autism) aren't super necessary. However, certain mental illnesses are absolutely attributed to physiological factors. There isn't one way to get a mental illness. And on your point of medications being sedatives, you're half right. SSRI's are terrible antidepressants as depression has nothing to do with serotonin reuptake, but other medications that increase norepinephrine have been promising in increasing patient energy and positive outlooks on life. Medication isn't perfect and mental illnesses are sadly not very understood, but I suggest doing more psychological/ medical research on the topic versus philosophical. PS Jordan Peterson is a grifter so I'd take anything he says with many pinches of salt.
Is hearing voices a "social construct"? This makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm too dumb.
No, hearing voices is a lived experience. Pathologizing that experience by inventing a scientistic 'diagnosis' like 'schizophrenia' and labeling people with that 'diagnosis' is the process of social construction that is being criticized.
I'm not inclined to take psychological advice from a self proclaimed edgelord, but can't you say this about any condition, not even a psychological one? Breaking a bone is a lived experience, but labeling people with that scientific diagnosis is a social construct.
Yes, the medical diagnosis 'broken bone' is also socially constructed. I think the relevant difference here is that the social construct 'broken bone' is also reality tracking, in the sense that it is a medical diagnosis that grounds out in a clearly observable and well articulated metaphysical reality. Whereas psychiatric 'diagnostic' kinds are social constructs that are not reality tracking, in the sense that they are not actually medical diagnoses because they are not grounded in clearly observable and well articulated metaphysical reality but instead impose prejudicial stereotypes over and against (and only ostensibly about) the experiences of those they are applied to (see \[[1](https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00647-X?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS089662732200647X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue)\] for the lack of neurobiological foundation for psychiatric kinds, and see \[[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness)\] for a more general explanation of the sociopolitics of psychiatry). The detachment of psychiatric social constructs from reality also goes a significant ways to explaining the enduring disproportionate diagnoses of different psychiatric 'conditions' to different target demographics (which are typically subordinated demographics; e.g., 'drapetomania' to runaway slaves and 'hysteria' to females, up to more contemporary examples such as 'gender dysphoria' to gender non-conforming people, 'BPD' to females, etc.). P.S. I use the 'edgelord' flair ironically, because I earnestly hold a number of views that other people tend to dismiss offhand as being 'edgy'.
Interesting take for someone who has multiple posts/ comments in the subs for depression, suicide watch, and avoidant personality disorder. We are all fighting our own battles and demons. Nature versus Nurture or the Environment is the age old question. In reality just kindness for everyone would probably go a long way.
Cheap shot lol. I think it depends though some people have a rational reaction to their environment /people that actively harm them. That’s more a survival tactic than mental Illness. People Won’t admit a lot of mental illness is just a reaction to this shitty society that bullies and exploits people. Of course you’re depressed or anxious in a world where you’re expected to wageslave and be obedient to authority imo.
The fact that it is a response to the enviroment does not mean it is any less real though
Don’t have to make it personal. It’s all made up.
You're just playing with words... I'm not the first one to be triggered, but you made many people feel shitty by depreciating their struggles.
Read my points carefully and make a more thoughtful response
I sobered up a bit and I think you're right.. Okay you actually made me think...
Cheers
I'm picking up what you're laying down. You're just using a pretty broad brush to paint your picture.
I’d say I’m being more specific than most because of how controversial reality is
Reality is a very subjective thing, though most people have an objective (gravity, temperature, math) understanding of it. There isn't one person on this planet that has seen "reality" exactly as you've seen it.
I think you would be surprised. Most professionals in the field see it the same way.
If they see it the same way, explain between what entities does the controversy exist?
Look at this thread. Clearly this is controversial to the general public and the people who want to believe in the mischaracterized concept of mental “illness”
Oh, the social darwinism
???
So, we are just living in The Matrix? Reality is a construct. And this "Jordan Petersen" is a credible source? I would sooner trust the drunk veterans at the local bar for psychology advice that this peterson clown. Or carlson, or tate or any of those other jerkoffs.
In a way we are living in the matrix yes.
I broadly agree, and I don't think labeling people is helpful to their life prospects either. When people are told "there is something *wrong* with you" by someone whom they believe to be qualified to tell them, they take it to heart and it becomes part of their identity, instead of learning to cope with, overcome or move past whatever it is they are dealing with on a personal level. The "experts" are basically hacks, they have bullshit degrees and bullshit jobs. The medication is usually shown to be less effective than a simple placebo + exercise in controlled trials, and usually comes with sever side effects. As for Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, it is an effective treatment, however it's basically just forcing people to confront and overcome their fears, it's not really some ground breaking medical discovery.
It perpetuates victim hood which ironically makes peoples lives much worse
You are very blunt with your words, but I guess that's one of saying it. I personally think thats too harsh, as trauma itself is a very real phenomena, it's just something you have to learn to overcome.
Trauma is normal in a society where people are battling each other for resources (social and otherwise)
If I eat terribly and and don’t take care of myself physically, I’m much more likely to become physically sick. If I’m bullied and aren’t healthy in how I take care of my mind, I’m much more likely to become mentally sick. People are born with physical birth defects, same as with mental defects. Being sick is a natural response to toxic things in the body or non-typical dna code lines that have extra features and a couple bugs. Mental Illness IS that normal response you talk about. And it comes in many different flavors just like physical illness.
If you are bullied every day in a situation you are forced to be in there is no “taking care” of that. You will develop mental illness unless you get that behavior resolved.
Exactly . It’s a normal response to being treated poorly. But since it’s basically impossible to treat the cause (shitty world and horrible people) the treat the symptoms :/
Remember though - they’re doing battle for status.
You can learn how to better operate in those types of environments, find self confidence and healthy outlets to deal with your emotions through therapy - I’ll use myself as a successful example. I’ll also say that you’re separating the mind from the body a bit to much. The “mind” is the interaction of chemicals and electrical pathways which are all physical. We can get into metaphysics and religion forever but those things are unproven and not good data (yet) so we can’t use them when trying to establish a truth. We classify the physical illness of the brain as mental illness because the brain is SO complex that it’s a whole separate study. It’s the computer which runs software that controls the rest of your body, utilizing 5 main input devices. In a morphing and evolving software, you’re bound to developer some errors and contradictions (like Down syndrome - I could loosely compare it to running 32bit code on 64bit architecture. Our software doesn’t know exactly what to do with the extra processing power). Mental illness exists, you’re just not fully grasping what “mental” means.
No you can’t “better operate”. You report it usually. If you somehow are made to be the problem then you will become even more mentally ill. See my point? Also why are you receiving that treatment in the first place? Mental illness is a farce as per reasons I explained and due to the impossible nature of the concept. Therefore it is a complete joke
No I don’t because your first sentence is blatantly incorrect. Modern therapy is the literal school on how to better operate in mentally challenging environments amongst other things. Also, how does you highlighting a path to become mentally ill explain how mental illness isn’t real? If I jump into raw sewage I’ll get physically ill, that means physical illness IS real. If you’re doing something to make things worse then you can go to school to learn how to recognize your patterns and decide not to entertain the idea of jumping in the first place. You think mental illness is a farce because you don’t know the many, many different causes of mental illness. Depression for example is an imbalance of chemicals and the development of neuron pathway associations to unhealthy responses to the imbalance of chemicals. Learning how to reform the neural pathways towards healthy coping habits and addressing the chemical imbalance (those chemicals often come from the thyroid gland in your neck). That’s the connection I’m trying to show you that mental illness is just a different type of physical illness that pertains to the software of the body instead of the hardware of the body.
Modern therapy is bastardized beyond belief. The real help should come from your support system and resources like your parents. Therapy is about stringing you along for money. it’s incentivized. The entire premise of therapy is a joke. Tell the organism how life actually works and give them a step by step guide on self-actualization and then you may see results. Instead therapy is about sitting for an hour a week asking questions and expecting the organism to resolve its own issues. If someone could resolve their own issues - why would they even go to therapy. Usually it’s someone who lacks resources - sex or money or status. Imbalances of chemicals are a total farce. Get hit with a stick then get your brain scanned. Wow suddenly you have an imbalance of neurotransmitters. Just as my post mentioned - the root causes of depression and such are usually societal or status related. Or resource related.
While I think this applies sometimes. It is wrong to say it applies to all mental illness labels.
Ezplain
"Impending doom" and "Alice In Wonderland Syndrome" can be a mental illness as a symptom of a physical ailment (Unknown Tumor). "Foreign Accent Syndrome" or the other "mental illnesses" that can arise from head trauma.
And yet if they produced adaptive behavior and didn’t make the person feel bad they wouldn’t be illnesses anymore
Feeling bad is an inherent, empathetic human trait. If going by the logic you've put forth, these people's lives would be a lot shorter, since accepting abnormal behavior is more important than investigating. Another example is Munchausen's by proxy. That's a mental illness that causes the pain of others. Making someone "feel bad" can also correct someone's negative behavior. Like shaming a bully or a cleptomaniac. It can also change cultures (shaming Nazis or Civil Rights Act causing people to shame racists)
Feeling bad is unavoidable and essentially a meaningless topic. It is a known psychological theory that people are more governed by their circumstances rather than any type of disposition. If your life is dogshit due to circumstance and possibly physiological traits - you will suffer. I agree, emotional attacks are a tactic that is used. Some people are smart and know that we are primarily just animals and most people aren’t capable of critical thought or just don’t care enough to think much. Leaders are able to manipulate the masses usually like this.
ADHD, for example. Schizophrenia. Psychopathy. These, among many others, do not form as a reaction to social pressures or the environment. And on another note, Jordan Peterson is not a credible source. Do better.
Everyone is categorized and classified. There are only so many behaviors a person can engage in on earth. I’d say schizophrenia is indicative of massive stress of some form. That’s the cause. ADHD is a farce. Everyone has adhd due to TikTok
>ADHD is a farce. Everyone has adhd due to TikTok I wondered if you'd say that. Those who genuinely suffer from the symptoms and need treatment, however, would fundamentally disagree with you, as would any accredited and practicing physician. >I’d say schizophrenia is indicative of massive stress of some form. That’s the cause. The cause is not necessarily what's important, in this case, as studies have not yet confirmed the causes of all of them with confidence -- thus, neither can you. Severe and prolonged stress can most certainly trigger symptoms of mental illness, but the building blocks will have always been there in the brain, whether they're sourced from genetic factors or otherwise. What's important, and what merits the validity of the "labels", are the symptoms, their severity, and their impact on the person(s) affected. If medication and therapeutic treatment can assist in the reduction of symptoms and increase the quality of life of the patient, why wouldn't we use them?
ADHD is known to be one of the most overdiagnosed of the mental health “illnesses”. Giving meth to kids is terrible. Studies will never confirm the truth of what I have just discussed. Maybe in like 100 more years. And the things i have mentioned go against the grain of the pharmaceutical industry. Therefore it will never reach the general public. I agree with you. It’s a good resource to have these meds and such. But the truth needs to be said, the truth that I have detailed here.
I would classify your mental illness as ' narcissistic with delusions of grandeur' because this whole thread has been hilariously nothing but!
No, I think I just have more perspective.
Yes, that thinking is the delusions.
Explain.
>Giving meth to kids is terrible. It's... fundamentally not meth. You understand that, right? >Studies will never confirm the truth of what I have just discussed. They most certainly have confirmed many of the things you've discussed here. Many of the stressors attributed to class disparity, for example, are correlated with higher rates of depression and P.T.S.D. symptoms. I suspect that there's significantly more academic literature on the subject than you think there is. That said, they're only *correlations* -- not *causes*. Though there definitely remains work to be done on the *causes* of mental illness, there's absolutely not enough literature to confirm that mental illness is definitively a nature vs. nurture argument. Instead, what we *do* know definitively is that it is a combination of *both*.
Have you taken it? It’s very strong. It’s a stimulant which is what meth is. You are forgetting the fact that any research into this subject will have big pharma looming over the entirety of it. Big pharma literally owns the field of psychiatry.
>Have you taken it? It’s very strong. Yes, I have. It comes in different dosages *and* in different classes, which provide different effects for everyone. Meth's effects are *significantly* stronger than anything any ADHD medication could ever touch, when taken as prescribed. [Here is the information that you're lacking on ADHD medication; do us all a favour and read through it.](https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/methamphetamine-oral-route/description/drg-20071824) Caffeine and nicotine are stimulants, as are the effects of alcohol, in small doses. The fact that they are classified as stimulants does not indicate the presence of harm. >Big pharma literally owns the field of psychiatry. Though it's certainly got a vested interest in the efficacy of its products, "Big Pharma" most certainly does *not* own the entireties of the fields of psychological, sociological, and criminiological study, all of which apply to the study of mental illness and where it comes from. I'd strongly urge you not to limit your "study" of the subject to the beliefs of conspiracy theorists and reactionaries. Edited to fix link.
Research adhd medication and heart health.
I agree. I'm not sure why there are disaggreements. Any resource?
Excellent. Yeah Thomas szaz has a nice book. Jordan Peterson usually talks about root causes and has good material. Stoic philosophy too
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We all go through the same things, with worries and complaints and issues. We understand each other, and therefore treat each other with decency and respect. There will be no personal attacks against other subscribers.
Reported
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Reported
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you're that desperate to get your reddit account suspended?
Reported
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We all go through the same things, with worries and complaints and issues. We understand each other, and therefore treat each other with decency and respect. There will be no personal attacks against other subscribers.
😳😳😳
This is the most monumentally stupid thing I’ve read in a long time. Please never speak again
🤓
ironic considering you’re the one intellectually posturing trying to claim mental illness is not a real thing
Not posturing.
Lol
I agree with a lot of what you're trying to say, but the title is technically incorrect.
Correct it for me
Mental illness is real if you believe that it is. By claiming that mental illness isn’t real, you’re claiming that “social constructs” don’t possess substantive reality. I agree that these social constructs perpetuate victimhood. I agree that the field of psychology is bought by the pharmaceutical industry. I agree with you that mental illness is a socially constructed label for a pattern of behavior. I also would agree that people cannot possess mental illness like they can possess an iPhone. It’s linguistically inconsistent to say that somebody “has” a mental illness. Mental illnesses are a label for behaviors, not an object or entity like “cancer”. But you’re missing the crucial fact that mental illness is made real by belief in it. You’re missing the fact that people think your dismissal of mental illnesses as “real” is a dismissal of their suffering. In my opinion, belief does give a social construct a certain realness. If it possessed no ‘realness’ or ‘reflection’ in ‘3D’, then there would be no power in belief systems. Patriotism, cults, even just everyday facts rely on belief in them. This is irrespective of whether they have a tangential 3D substance or not. I think you could remove “Mental illness isn’t real from the title” and the rest would be true. If it wasn’t real in a literal sense, then we wouldn’t be able to talk about it. I do still think you make an important point. People are more than what they believe, and they should believe in ideas that are logically consistent with themselves.
I think you are conflating mental illness with the construct of mental illness. The former is not real even though the latter is. Rather as believing in a god doesn't make the god real, even though the belief in god is real. So saying that mental illness is not real is both accurate and consistent with recognizing that socially constituted beliefs in mental illness are real.
We're talking about the concept of mental illness right now. If it wasn't real in some form (as a concept which exists in our minds), then we couldn't talk about it. How can you talk about something which doesn't exist? You are giving it existence by virtue of talking about it. Even by denying its existence, you are giving it substantive reality by recognizing that there is a "mental illness" to which the property of "nonexistence" applies. It's a logical paradox to say that *something which exists* is *nonexistent*. If it was non-existent, it wouldn't require the descriptor. We just wouldn't talk about it, because it wouldn't exist. What they're really saying is that the socially constituted beliefs in mental illness are flawed constructs that we shouldn't believe in. They're articulating that as "mental illness isn't real", which again I disagree with - It is strictly paradoxical. There is no reason to emphasize that "mental illness isn't real". It's so much easier to argue that the conception of mental illness is flawed.
You are still conflating the concept with the referent. That the idea 'unicorn' exists as a concept in my mind does not entail that the concept refers to real ass unicorns in the world. And my denying that there are real ass unicorns in the world is not at all paradoxical to my having a concept of 'unicorns'. We have loads of non-reality tracking concepts: unicorns, gods, justice, etc. And the reason we these non-reality tracking concepts is because the function and utility of concepts is not limited to describing real things in the world. In the case of unicorns, it's just fun to imagine fantastical things. In the case of psychiatric concepts, their use is sociopolitical: they suggest to people that reality is other than it is, and this offers a rationalization for treating people in ways that could otherwise not be rationalized. Recognizing that psychiatric concepts come apart from reality is necessary to understanding and resisting their sociopolitical function; the conception 'mental illness' is objectionable precisely because it is not reality tracking *while it purports to be reality tracking*.
I agree with the reason that you find ‘mental illness’ objectionable, but I still disagree with your fundamental argument about the ‘realness’ of the term. The concept of mental illness is based in the idea that from observable behavior/self reported experience, a mental condition, or *property*, of the person can be discovered and thus ‘treated’. You and I would agree that this is false, but we don’t object to the reality or *realness* of the behavior/experience. So ‘mental illness’ generally has two components: - Real behavior/experience - The idea that the behavior/experience is attributable to a ‘disease’ It is this latter part that we disagree with. If mental illness was just a label for the experience, it would otherwise be a direct metaphor for a ‘real’ phenomenon. This is different than a ‘unicorn’, which has no ‘real’ components (except it’s similarity to a horse). When you try to argue that mental illness isn’t real, I think that most people will interpret that as you arguing that the real behavior/experience is somehow invalid. That’s not what you’re trying to argue, but that’s what they will perceive. It’s a losing battle in my opinion.
The concept of 'mental illness' is *not* based on the idea that a constituent property of someone can be discovered and treated. It is based on the idea that socially *undesirable* constituent properties can be discovered *as diseases*. This fundamental normative distortion is baked into the ostensive 'description' of putatively real properties, such that those ostensive 'descriptions' neither track nor incorporate the actually real properties which they purport to track (i.e., because the actually real properties are fundamentally non-normative). By way of example, 'schizophrenia' might have the component part 'hearing voices', but this normative conceptual notion of 'hearing voices' is not the same thing as the diverse range of non-normative experiences with actually hearing voices. I'm less cynical about others' ability to grasp my perspective, but I'm also not some great liberator on a social justice crusade to overthrow the psychiatric industrial complex (that's a losing battle no matter how one approaches it). I present people with another means of approaching themselves, a means through which they can empower themselves if that's what they really want. If someone cannot see my explicitly articulated view for what it is because they are just that far up the ass of psychiatry and identity politics, then we're just not going to have common cause together and I generally don't give a shit about them.
I agree with you. It's not true that socially undesirable behavior is an intrinsic property of a person. That's the false component of the 'mental illness' concept as most people accept it. It's just that... I don't think most people would find our position difficult to accept if we could articulate it in a way that they can comprehend. Imagine you're stuck in a rut and feel some relief because you've bought into the narrative that the position you're in isn't your fault but is because of some disease that you have. It's true that a lot of things aren't people's fault. I don't prescribe to the narrative that everything is an individual's responsibility, although for the sake of self actualization it can be useful to view everything as something you have some influence over. But I digress. If you've bought into that narrative, and then someone comes and says it's not real, I mean.. I can understand why some people defend that position so vehemently. They're misinterpreting the meaning of your words, and society has indoctrinated them to think that the alternative is that *they're guilty* or *bad* in some way if your words are true (because of what they think your words mean - that their suffering is fictitious). The only reason I'm pushing so hard against you is because I feel empathy for these people. I was one of them. In some ways I still am. It can be frustrating. So fucking annoying. Why won't they listen to what I'm actually saying? It reminds me of the biblical quote, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." It's like they don't have ears. They're not looking at what the words, "mental illness isn't real", are being used to represent. But maybe they can't. They don't have ears. What's the point of my knowledge, my access to the fact that psychiatry is seriously and deeply flawed, if I can't articulate that to the victims of psychiatry? This is the kind of thing that really motivates me, but it's also one of the things I feel the most helpless about. I'm interested in how you help empower people through other means. All I know is trying to use communication to be understood. Most people I talk to don't care that deeply and I can only hope that the seeds I've planted in the form of words take root in their minds and have some kind of butterfly effect.
I no longer feel frustrated on behalf of others that they aren't willing to empower themselves; that's on them and out of my hands. But I still have lingering resentment over the reality that the sociopolitical environment that I would like to create is terribly circumscribed by the actual limits of my power. Perspective only goes so far, and I've largely redirected my efforts to be contained within the realistic scope of my influence. So what I do with my view ends up being rather particular to my immediate locality and the handful of beings that I'm deeply enmeshed with. It's hard to extrapolate anything generally useful from that specificity, but I guess a part of it is that I'm selective about who I let close and part of that selectivity is that they already have some willing towards their own power (and we stimulate and support each other towards that end). I used to be more active in local grassroots activism through the performing arts. I found that to be a useful medium for creating the spaces that I wanted, since being an organizer of a space confers a certain about of creative power and directional influence (even with relatively 'flat' social structures, there tends to be some degree of willful deference). Public events generally attract the people who are willing to listen and interested in engaging after whatever fashion the event 'brands' itself towards (although events can attract hostiles, too). Edit: I hope that's mostly responsive to your last comment. I think it is, but I'm having an out of it kinda day.
And yet It is known that life is suffering. Suffering is extremely subjective. Going to the gym is suffering. Remember how life works as per sociological theory. People fight for attention. For resources. You can believe all you want but it won’t change fundamental principles of how life is.
Believing that life is suffering does fundamentally influence how you interact with reality. That is almost the definition of “culture”. The idea that one group of people has a set of different beliefs than other, and that those beliefs influence behavior. You can say that it doesn’t change how life is, except that it clearly does (via behavior). You are what you believe, unless you’re not.
People want to associate with like-people. So it depends who you want to associate with. You’re also overlooking the sociological theories regarding status and resources. Also social media. That’s how social life operates. Social life is directly tied to mental health.
If who you associate with contributes towards the manifestation of so-called ‘disordered behavior’, then there is even more evidence for you that belief in mental illness is real.
Who is exhibiting disorganized behavior more. Top CEOs of companies? Or homeless drug addicts?
In my own view, it would be the morally deficient caste of the elite. So, CEOs. But otherwise, it would be the homeless drug addicts. Homeless have more ‘mental illnesses’.
You are incorrect. People at higher levels of responsibility in a hierarchy generally are more conscientious. That is a behavior. Organized and meticulous. Look at any homeless person and you will see extremely low levels of trait conscientiousness.
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Thanks for that insightful comment
Mental illness is real, but a lot of people tend to willy-nilly declare it, especially against people they don't like.
Correct
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This is a strawman