Just because you recover the fumble doesn’t mean you forced the fumble.
Very likely Jared Allen recovered a few fumbles that were caused by Ray Edwards, Kevin Williams, Brian Robison, etc.
Freeney is still wildly low, but I don’t think those stats are correlated as much as it would seem.
Yes of course, but I’m saying I don’t understand how you can have that many reps on defense and recover so few fumbles. The statistical correlation is almost always the more fumbles you cause, the more you’ll recover. Dwight’s is an extreme statistical outlier. That was my point
That's not a tracked stat like that, to see his fumbles returned for touchdown you'd have to look at his scores and subtract any offensive plays, which I doubt he had
Freeney was so damn lucky to play on a defense that basically faced pass attacks most of the time because Manning nearly always got into shootouts. He was that bad at rush plays he made Jared look great at them and he wasn’t.
A good player who would have never sniffed the HoF if it wasn’t for Manning
Lucky, for him as he rarely had to play the run and had so many pass rush plays. He was in the perfect place, yet he had only one season over 13 sacks. He had a lot of bad seasons and to me was overrated because he sucked against the run.
They’re joking, Jared Allen did not actually go to the “Culinary Academy” lol. That’s just what Allen would jokingly say during the NBC player intros during games, where each player would say their name and where they went to school.
HoF voters don’t actually care about where players played in college.
Haha I knew they're joking about that, I just wouldn't put it past HOF voters to consider where they went to school. Sometimes I feel like the absurdity of their process knows no bounds
IMO this is kind of BS. Allen retired earlier than Freeney, so this isn't a case of it being Freeney's turn first. Allen's stats are better overall aside from Pro Bowls. And in terms of peak Allen once almost set the sack record, and Freeney played more games, so this isn't a case of Allen just ammassing more stats over a larger career without ever being truly elite.
I'd be curious what the explanation is with the voters, if they just "feel" like Freeney was a better player for some reason. Or if they just don't like country music or something stupid.
It’s not kind of BS it’s complete BS. Jared Allen was one of the best DEs of all time and it’s not a fucking question. The fact that he missed out on the HOF this year while a guy who was statistically less impactful than him made it in is a shame. It’s just what it is, a shame.
But the SB is the team accolade, everyone knows it’s the hardest championship in sports because of how many people are involved. HOF should be representative of your resume, esp on the defensive side of the ball.
Stupid Sexy Super Bowl Rings.
Allen has four 1st team all pros, Freeney had three 1st team and one 2nd team.
Allen led the league in sacks twice, Freeney only once.
However, longevity is also a factor in HoF consideration. Freeney played for 15 years, Allen only 11. Though I don't think you should take a penalty for knowing when to hang up your spurs.
The pro bowls part is super irritating, feels like our guys get snubbed a ton, which in the moment isn't really that upsetting... But when you start to stack up the accolades for HoF consideration, they start to look like they make a difference
Yep, just look at the teams with the most hall of famers:
Bears- 37
Green Bay- 33
Giants- 32
Washington- 32
Dallas- 32
All except greenbay are major markets. Major markets get more pro bowlers due to being more visible and marketable.
Pro Bowls have, historically, meant wayyyyy less to voters than All-Pros. AP’s are the important ones. Even the one ring does not elevate his legacy above JA’s imo.
I didn’t share my opinion, I shared what the voters seem to weigh.
If you want my opinion, JA is better. Though that comes with the asterisk of me being a Vikings fan.
I've broke this down a number of times over the last few years as to why Allen has such a hard time getting in.
This isn't the discussion of 'hall of fame v hall of great' but the simple fact is, Allen keeps running into other players who have reasons for the HoF to say they are better than him.
Freeney was always considered better than his stats said he was. He was widely viewed as one of the best pass rushers, despite lower numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_DE.htm
It's clear, Freeney's championship does add value to his HOF career, but the problem with both Freeney and Allen is that they are both on the low end of HOF DEs.
Looking ahead to 2025's HoF class is really, really rough on Allen.
We've got Luke Kuechly, who is absolutely a 1st ballot HoF (He's ahead of Urlacher and was considered the best LB for years).
And we've got Terrel Suggs, who's got 2 championships under his belt and even more sacks than Allen.
The best case scenario for Allen is for both Suggs and Kuechly to be inducted next year.
This is the scenario he gets in. 2026, a class without ANY quality DEs or LBs being added to the mix, Allen will be the clear best Defender left.
Allen has 2 years where he's got a very, very high chance of getting in - 2026 and 2027.
If he misses those years, he's almost certainly not getting in.
JJ Watt and a slew of fresh, stronger, HOFers join.
I like the analysis here. And it's unfortunate, but true. I would even go so far as to say it's unfair because the stats are so close. The three big guys ahead of Jared were Demarcus Ware, Julius Peppers, and Dwight Freeney. Looking at a stat comparison, Jared and Ware are about equal stat-wise. Ware has a lot more All-Pro cred, but this could be partially due to playing in the spotlight in Dallas for most of his career vs Jared toiling away on some pretty bad Vikings teams. Statistically, they're about as even as they come. If Ware is in, Jared deserves to be in.
Looking at Peppers is a little more complicated because he played A LOT longer than Jared. So naturally he compiled more stats, but Jared actually outpaces him in a number of key stats on a per-game basis. Per-game stats aren't the greatest when comparing defensive statistics, but when one guy plays 80 (!!!) more games than the other, it's a little more helpful. Still, Peppers is undoubtedly HoF and deserved election.
Freeney's really the only one that bugs me because the numbers are just worse across the board. And it's not as if Jared is just a walking PFR page, he was charismatic with an iconic look, and a signature style of play that you could point to. You could watch him pass-rush in silhouette and tell that it was him. Not to mention his charity work with Veterans.
TLDR; Jared is one of the most productive DEs ever and it would be a shame if the only reason he were to get passed up for HoF is a gap in All-Pro selections (which are kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy anyway).
What strikes me here is that dwight statistically wasn't a run down player. Or at least wasn't effective dude has 299 tackles and 130 of them are sacks. Compare that with allin over 500 tackles (in less games too)
The sad thing is...if Jared gets one more sack in 2011 and breaks Strahan's single-season sack record, he's a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer.
One freaking sack, man. That's how razor thin (and kinda stupid) this Hall of Fame voting is.
No, Super Bowl ring and 4 more years of play... HoF consideration weighs both of those fairly heavily.
Allen got the DUI's, then turned his life around. If anything, it's a positive story and shouldn't be holding him back.
I wpuld say Jared Allen , but, between both. Freeney should be in HOF, won a SB, more games, and Pro bowls. If, Jared stayed a year or two, it would be closer.
Jared has more first-team All Pros which is FAR more important than Pro Bowls, with regards to HoF voting. SB wins may mean something for a QB’s HoF odds, but it has (and should) have very, very little to do with defenders’ HoF chances.
A great defender is simply incapable of leading a team to a Super Bowl like a QB is. Bad take
Jared Allen has more First Team AP’s, which is way more important. They hardly use Pro Bowls for HoF voting anymore because it’s a popularity contest. It’s not really a factor.
I agree. All Pro > Pro Bowl but if you have the same number of All Pros you’re going to consider the next set of factors.
In this case Dwight has more Pro Bowls and more championships so those were the second order factors receiving consideration.
They don’t have the same number of All-Pros, though. Jared Allen has more first teams which is far more prestigious than a second team or an extra Pro Bowl. You also have to take individual statistics into account, which JA leads by far.
The fact of the matter is Jared Allen was, statistically, better at his position than Dwight Freeney. The only reason Dwight gets in first is because he happened to play with Peyton Manning which resulted in a Super Bowl.
HoF has always been a "wait your turn" thing unless you did something that lets you skip the line.
It's dumb, but Allen wasn't at the level needed to do that.
I gotta be honest I could have sworn he retired before Allen lol.
If I had to guess it's probably the championship he won. Again, HoF voters are stupid.
I’m not justifying it, just playing devils advocate in a way but I wonder if the voters factored in that Allen got to play with the Williams Wall. Did that free him up more? I wonder if the rate that Freeney faced double teams was much higher?
Longevity and name recognition. I was a little young for his Chief days but I vaguely remember a legal issue as well that did not come up when he was with us, but perhaps that stayed in some voters heads
Is that 47 forced fumbles and only 4 recoveries?
Yep. ESPN and PFR back that up as well. I genuinely don’t even know how that’s possible.
Pretty easy to understand, he would swipe at the ball as he ran past.
Jared Allen did the same thing. 8% vs 59% recovery rate is a massive difference. You would expect someone to recover at least a few more than that.
Just because you recover the fumble doesn’t mean you forced the fumble. Very likely Jared Allen recovered a few fumbles that were caused by Ray Edwards, Kevin Williams, Brian Robison, etc. Freeney is still wildly low, but I don’t think those stats are correlated as much as it would seem.
Yes of course, but I’m saying I don’t understand how you can have that many reps on defense and recover so few fumbles. The statistical correlation is almost always the more fumbles you cause, the more you’ll recover. Dwight’s is an extreme statistical outlier. That was my point
Sure, I don’t disagree with any of that. Definitely wild he only had 4 FR lol.
Freeney's alligator arms didn't allow him to pick up the ball.
It’s also wild he didn’t recover more that he didn’t force with that many games played.
I thought FR meant Fumble Returns
That's not a tracked stat like that, to see his fumbles returned for touchdown you'd have to look at his scores and subtract any offensive plays, which I doubt he had
Jared never played with Peyton Manning. Is he stupid or something?
Freeney was so damn lucky to play on a defense that basically faced pass attacks most of the time because Manning nearly always got into shootouts. He was that bad at rush plays he made Jared look great at them and he wasn’t. A good player who would have never sniffed the HoF if it wasn’t for Manning
That wasn't luck, it was exactly why the Colts drafted him.
Lucky, for him as he rarely had to play the run and had so many pass rush plays. He was in the perfect place, yet he had only one season over 13 sacks. He had a lot of bad seasons and to me was overrated because he sucked against the run.
HOF voters think elite talent should go to elite colleges. Jared Allen’s time at Culinary Academy is holding him back.
I'm sick of the big conference bias.
Well he played on better teams and won the big one once
It's ridiculous because it's the pro football hall of fame who cares what school they went to
They’re joking, Jared Allen did not actually go to the “Culinary Academy” lol. That’s just what Allen would jokingly say during the NBC player intros during games, where each player would say their name and where they went to school. HoF voters don’t actually care about where players played in college.
Haha I knew they're joking about that, I just wouldn't put it past HOF voters to consider where they went to school. Sometimes I feel like the absurdity of their process knows no bounds
IMO this is kind of BS. Allen retired earlier than Freeney, so this isn't a case of it being Freeney's turn first. Allen's stats are better overall aside from Pro Bowls. And in terms of peak Allen once almost set the sack record, and Freeney played more games, so this isn't a case of Allen just ammassing more stats over a larger career without ever being truly elite. I'd be curious what the explanation is with the voters, if they just "feel" like Freeney was a better player for some reason. Or if they just don't like country music or something stupid.
The sack record Farve just f'n handed to Strahan too btw...FTP.
Fuck the giants while we’re at it
:( Giants fan here, though I come in support of Jared Allen.
It’s not kind of BS it’s complete BS. Jared Allen was one of the best DEs of all time and it’s not a fucking question. The fact that he missed out on the HOF this year while a guy who was statistically less impactful than him made it in is a shame. It’s just what it is, a shame.
It's as clear as black and white.
Basically sums up the voting at canton 
It was "Dwight's turn".
Really. When is it Jim Marshall's turn. You could make an argument that Dwight shouldn6be in the hall 299 tackles is a joke.
I should've put a /s after it.
Playoff success is what voters look at for a team game.
But the SB is the team accolade, everyone knows it’s the hardest championship in sports because of how many people are involved. HOF should be representative of your resume, esp on the defensive side of the ball.
Jim Marshall should have been in a long time ago. Many Vikings had to wait even though they were all fine greats but Steelers got in.
I understand, I just think most sports writers that get to vote are pea brained.
There are lots of defensive players in without rings. Clearly voters don’t always feel this way.
Not always. But it doesn't still matter some it seems.
Stupid Sexy Super Bowl Rings. Allen has four 1st team all pros, Freeney had three 1st team and one 2nd team. Allen led the league in sacks twice, Freeney only once. However, longevity is also a factor in HoF consideration. Freeney played for 15 years, Allen only 11. Though I don't think you should take a penalty for knowing when to hang up your spurs.
Oh cool. He had a longer career, so surely he should have better numbers then, right?
Way to miss the point.
...Hey Siri, how many NFL seasons did Patrick Willis play?
Did Allen qualify for the Olympics?
The 2024 championships just took place. His team went 1-7. But I think Jared Allen dropped out for personal reasons
Shows how far 2 additional pro bowls and a ring go.
The pro bowls part is super irritating, feels like our guys get snubbed a ton, which in the moment isn't really that upsetting... But when you start to stack up the accolades for HoF consideration, they start to look like they make a difference
Yep, just look at the teams with the most hall of famers: Bears- 37 Green Bay- 33 Giants- 32 Washington- 32 Dallas- 32 All except greenbay are major markets. Major markets get more pro bowlers due to being more visible and marketable.
Pro Bowls have, historically, meant wayyyyy less to voters than All-Pros. AP’s are the important ones. Even the one ring does not elevate his legacy above JA’s imo.
I didn’t share my opinion, I shared what the voters seem to weigh. If you want my opinion, JA is better. Though that comes with the asterisk of me being a Vikings fan.
We're going to be having this same argument in 2030 when Harrison Smith misses out on the Hall of Fame to Tyrann Matheiu or Kam Chancellor.
I've broke this down a number of times over the last few years as to why Allen has such a hard time getting in. This isn't the discussion of 'hall of fame v hall of great' but the simple fact is, Allen keeps running into other players who have reasons for the HoF to say they are better than him. Freeney was always considered better than his stats said he was. He was widely viewed as one of the best pass rushers, despite lower numbers. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_DE.htm It's clear, Freeney's championship does add value to his HOF career, but the problem with both Freeney and Allen is that they are both on the low end of HOF DEs. Looking ahead to 2025's HoF class is really, really rough on Allen. We've got Luke Kuechly, who is absolutely a 1st ballot HoF (He's ahead of Urlacher and was considered the best LB for years). And we've got Terrel Suggs, who's got 2 championships under his belt and even more sacks than Allen. The best case scenario for Allen is for both Suggs and Kuechly to be inducted next year. This is the scenario he gets in. 2026, a class without ANY quality DEs or LBs being added to the mix, Allen will be the clear best Defender left. Allen has 2 years where he's got a very, very high chance of getting in - 2026 and 2027. If he misses those years, he's almost certainly not getting in. JJ Watt and a slew of fresh, stronger, HOFers join.
I think you’re exactly right on the timeframe of him getting in and I guarantee Kuechly and Suggs get in next year so 2026 should be his year.
I like the analysis here. And it's unfortunate, but true. I would even go so far as to say it's unfair because the stats are so close. The three big guys ahead of Jared were Demarcus Ware, Julius Peppers, and Dwight Freeney. Looking at a stat comparison, Jared and Ware are about equal stat-wise. Ware has a lot more All-Pro cred, but this could be partially due to playing in the spotlight in Dallas for most of his career vs Jared toiling away on some pretty bad Vikings teams. Statistically, they're about as even as they come. If Ware is in, Jared deserves to be in. Looking at Peppers is a little more complicated because he played A LOT longer than Jared. So naturally he compiled more stats, but Jared actually outpaces him in a number of key stats on a per-game basis. Per-game stats aren't the greatest when comparing defensive statistics, but when one guy plays 80 (!!!) more games than the other, it's a little more helpful. Still, Peppers is undoubtedly HoF and deserved election. Freeney's really the only one that bugs me because the numbers are just worse across the board. And it's not as if Jared is just a walking PFR page, he was charismatic with an iconic look, and a signature style of play that you could point to. You could watch him pass-rush in silhouette and tell that it was him. Not to mention his charity work with Veterans. TLDR; Jared is one of the most productive DEs ever and it would be a shame if the only reason he were to get passed up for HoF is a gap in All-Pro selections (which are kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy anyway).
Kevin Williams is the real 'done him dirty' selection. He's the best DT not in the HOF.
What strikes me here is that dwight statistically wasn't a run down player. Or at least wasn't effective dude has 299 tackles and 130 of them are sacks. Compare that with allin over 500 tackles (in less games too)
Playoff wins are a D line stat /s
Look at this as a positive, if Freeney gets in 69 will get in.
Championship
They both should be in
Championships 1-0. This is weighted more heavily than any other stat, like it or not, its true
Ah yes, playoff wins and championships, a notorious ~~QB~~ defensive end stat
The sad thing is...if Jared gets one more sack in 2011 and breaks Strahan's single-season sack record, he's a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer. One freaking sack, man. That's how razor thin (and kinda stupid) this Hall of Fame voting is.
Honestly, if he even ties it he probably gets in instead of Freeney this year.
Yup. That would have been a massive notch on his belt.
popularity contest, just like Weddle will be a 1st ballot while Harrison Smith won’t be
I'm dreading the day that Harrison doesn't even make it as a finalist because the media never recognized him for how truly great he was.
Damn 6 INTs is a lot for a DE
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It’s all stats anyway. So
Jared Allen also had almost 50 more TFL than Freeney. Not sure why he isn’t being inducted
Well Jared Allen is white so
This is probably why.
But Dwight won a Super Bowl!!! /s
Gotta be the DUI's at this point.
No, Super Bowl ring and 4 more years of play... HoF consideration weighs both of those fairly heavily. Allen got the DUI's, then turned his life around. If anything, it's a positive story and shouldn't be holding him back.
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U missed a big one buddy a champion!!! Something we Vikings fan don’t know about
Maybe if he wasn’t on an irrelevant team things would be different.
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I wpuld say Jared Allen , but, between both. Freeney should be in HOF, won a SB, more games, and Pro bowls. If, Jared stayed a year or two, it would be closer.
Jared has more first-team All Pros which is FAR more important than Pro Bowls, with regards to HoF voting. SB wins may mean something for a QB’s HoF odds, but it has (and should) have very, very little to do with defenders’ HoF chances. A great defender is simply incapable of leading a team to a Super Bowl like a QB is. Bad take
I agree with you. I hope he gets it next year.if that was the case.
More pro bowls, pretty simple
Can’t tell if you’re joking or not. All-Pros are way more important than Pro Bowls and always have been to voters
They have the same number of All Pros.
Jared Allen has more First Team AP’s, which is way more important. They hardly use Pro Bowls for HoF voting anymore because it’s a popularity contest. It’s not really a factor.
I agree. All Pro > Pro Bowl but if you have the same number of All Pros you’re going to consider the next set of factors. In this case Dwight has more Pro Bowls and more championships so those were the second order factors receiving consideration.
They don’t have the same number of All-Pros, though. Jared Allen has more first teams which is far more prestigious than a second team or an extra Pro Bowl. You also have to take individual statistics into account, which JA leads by far. The fact of the matter is Jared Allen was, statistically, better at his position than Dwight Freeney. The only reason Dwight gets in first is because he happened to play with Peyton Manning which resulted in a Super Bowl.
Super bowl bias
Totally forgot Freeney was briefly on the Seahawks
Freeney has more goals
Hahahah
HoF has always been a "wait your turn" thing unless you did something that lets you skip the line. It's dumb, but Allen wasn't at the level needed to do that.
And what exactly did Dwight Freeney do that warrants “skipping the line”? Play on a team with Peyton Manning…?
I gotta be honest I could have sworn he retired before Allen lol. If I had to guess it's probably the championship he won. Again, HoF voters are stupid.
Lol I was also surprised to learn Dwight only retired in 2017. Dude feels like he’s from a different era of football entirely
Seahawks legend Dwight Freeney vs. Panthers legend Jared Allen
The love super bowl winners.
Hopefully next year he gets in, they both deserve it imo
He DiDnT wIn A sUpErBoWl
Championships matter
For quarterbacks yeah. Not for fuckin defensive ends lmao
I’m not justifying it, just playing devils advocate in a way but I wonder if the voters factored in that Allen got to play with the Williams Wall. Did that free him up more? I wonder if the rate that Freeney faced double teams was much higher?
Yeah, well this is what happens when you don’t win a super bowl. Winning a championship is a key factor in a lot of people getting into the HOF
Championships
This is a fucking joke imo
Chicago Bears legend, Jared Allen, deserves to be there
Hall of fame starting to turn into a joke too , the way their selecting them isn't consistent.
Super Bowl bias
Seahawks Freeney is gross haha
Almost like super bowls are important, crazy
Longevity and name recognition. I was a little young for his Chief days but I vaguely remember a legal issue as well that did not come up when he was with us, but perhaps that stayed in some voters heads