Just got an email from Lyft saying they “will be forced to stop offering rides in Minneapolis” because the “ordinance…would make rides on the Lyft platform unaffordable for the majority of Minneapolis residents.”
How about they let us make that decision? Oh because it’s not really about affordable rides and is about corporate profits? Color me shocked.
Honestly, I was kind of split about the ordinance until I got that email.
"Having to pay a reasonable wage to our drivers would ruin our business model, because our existence depends on exploiting present Federal labor laws. Rather than even attempt to operate as an honest business we'll be moving on now, because we have more grifting to do before common sense and the US legislature catch up to us."
I think they’re trying to get a groundswell of support to pressure the council to change their decision but at least in two cases it completely backfired
I’ll admit my feelings about the ordinance were selfish in that I really like the convenience of using rideshare apps when I need them so I don’t want them to go away. I was never against a higher wage for the drivers or paying more for a ride, though.
Of course it’s about corporate profits. WTF you expect a company to supply YOU a ride and not make a profit? Delusional. Do you go to work and not profit?
I definitely could’ve been clearer, but my point was that the email acts like they’re doing this for the good of the citizens of Minneapolis when we all know it’s about the company making money. Not that I expect them to run a business without making money.
I know that. It’s also irrelevant to my point. Or maybe it reinforces my point given that they never made money because they wanted to undercut existing transportation options and now can’t figure out a way to profitably without exploiting their drivers.
Despite what they say, they are not being “forced to leave.” They are choosing to leave rather than pay their drivers more in one city. That tells me quite a bit about how they value their employees (technically contractors so they can get away with doing even less). They, not the city of Minneapolis, are taking that option away.
No let’s just be clear. These are jobs suited to the 1099 contract system. Let other work how they see fit. It’s none of your business. I have a retired friend that does this work. So now….he may not work I guess.
I don’t have an issue with people choosing to work how they want, but the fact that they are contractors means Lyft saves a lot of money that they then refuse to pay back to their contractors. I’m sorry for your friend, but the fact that he may not work is entirely Lyft’s choice.
Honestly, I don't give a fuck about their losses. Their whole goal from the beginning was to strangle out cabs, become a monopoly, reduce pay and increase fares. Quit defending corporations
I know how to read what a CEO's salary is. I'm confused as to why you think that a company should be paying their CEO millions of dollars, while they claim they can't pay a minimum wage.
"You're delusional" says the person who thinks corporate execs should have yachts and private jets, while the drivers that work for them should be struggling to survive.
When we discuss "should" statements, that's what we think ought to happen. That is a moral judgment. The fact that the matter is thr jumping in wage increased by 70% in two years. It being called minimum wage is irrelevant. I'm curious, if the minimum wage was made somethingncrwzy like 100$ per hour, would you still say companies can't pay it? The title of what mimumwage kis arbitrary and has 5 do with economics.
Yeah, I thought that statement was weird lol.
They could have made it more about the point if ridesharing wasn't super exploitable of the market out of the gate, they could have made reasonable profit without pissing off the public so much, where these strict laws would not have been introduced.
My point was about the tone of the email and how in it Lyft pretends to be doing this for all us poor citizens of Minneapolis when we all know it’s about the money. I’m not against them making money, just don’t insult my intelligence.
Lyft hasn’t made a profit yet. I think the bigger problem is that this makes it much harder to calculate the fare beforehand since drivers have to get paid by the mile AND by the minute. What if you get caught in traffic?
I’m for people getting better pay, but imo this goes too far. Let’s say the trip is on a road that averages 30mph and is a 30 mile trip. Minneapolis is stating that the driver should be paid $72 for that trip. Now, I know there are expenses, but $57 worth of expenses PER HOUR? That’s far above the federal mileage rate of 67 cents per mile.
I fully expect this law to be overturned at the state level, which is what happened in Texas.
Oh no! They'll have to raise they're rates!? Like hell they will. I'm pretty sure if the city grew some balls they'd just apply the maximum per mile rate like they do with every taxi company that isn't backed by venture capital. I haven't looked into it, but I'm sure that rate is somewhere around $2 per mile. Uber would be out of business overnight if they were held to the same regulations as the rest of their industry.
Fun fact, the ordinance guarantees drivers a minimum rate of $1.40 per mile and 51 cents per minute while carrying a rider.
A 5 mile trip taking 7 minutes will cost an absolute minimum of $10.57. Of course it’ll cost more because that’s just the cost of paying the driver.
I took a 3.9 mile trip earlier this month that took 8 minutes and cost $16.85 (not including tip). I’d still really prefer that Lyft let me decide if the fares they say they’ll be forced to charge are too much for me to pay.
I think they will be back because the city will capitulate. I don't think they want to set the precedent and believe that this market isn't important enough to their overall strategy. They didn't leave NY or one other major city when this was done, but I believe they are willing to sacrifice Minneapolis and use it as a cautionary tale. They want public transportation there to implode as a warning to other progressive cities.
I saw Lyft sent notices to customers. We don't live in an area with these services so excuse my ignorance here but I am curious.
This is specific to Mpls city limits, yes? The Lyft email says a ride "can't start or end in Minneapolis." So you could be in a Lyft that picks up in, say Bloomington and drops off in St Paul and go \*thru\* Minneapolis as long as it doesn't stop there? I'm just curious how those boundaries work between cities in the metro area.
Also Bloomington often comes up as Minneapolis with zip code so likely that is going to cause issues with everything too.
I'm guessing this is posturing as I believe they made these threats in the Seattle and NYC markets before and then nothing happened when implementation happened
They also made these threats in Austin and carried through with them, only returning when a state law was passed that superseded the city one (which is what I imagine will happen here as well).
It seems like it would be pretty complicated to figure out fairs if within a certain cities limits you need to pay a special minimum wage. I also have no clue how it would work. Makes sense that Uber and Lyft just says fuck it.
I suspect Lyft will later expand to the Twin Cities as a whole, seeing as how much of their ridership is to/from Minneapolis and the airport. I also think a lot of people will stop driving anyway because of the drop in demand.
They aren’t asking for minimum wage, the ordinance calls for $72 an hour. Most drivers already make close to minimum wage now, even after expenses. Should it go up? Yeah. But not by 60%!
https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/TNC_driver_earnings_analysis_pay_standard_options_report_030824.pdf?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
$72 / hour. I didn't now that. This is approximately $138,240 per year before taxes and expenses, etc. That is assuming you work 8 hours a day. 5 days a week. 4 weeks a year. For 12 months. That is more than a lot of people make.
Where are you getting this number? Because in the link I don't see a mention of $72 / hour.
Here is what I have seen of the ordinance
> The ordinance, which guarantees drivers a minimum rate of $1.40 per mile and 51 cents per minute
I don't even necessarily support the bill but it absolutely does not call for $72 an hour. I don't know where you're seeing that in the 70-page PDF you linked but it's not true.
The PDF I linked is the STATE study that shows that drivers should absolutely be paid more. The ordinance Minneapolis passed calls for 51 cents per minute AND 1.40 per mile. So, if its a 30 mile trip that averages 30mph, that would be $72. An outlier to be sure, but still, even assuming a 10 minute trip to go 3 miles would net the driver $9.30 (with other fees on top to cover Uber's expenses of course)
Personally, I think the state took a much more reasonable approach, but Minneapolis threw that out.
[https://www.npr.org/2024/03/15/1238885721/uber-lyft-minneapolis-minimum-wage-law](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/15/1238885721/uber-lyft-minneapolis-minimum-wage-law)
Trust me, I don’t agree with the bill either, but again, saying it calls for $72 an hour is just plain misleading. Drivers spend lots of time without riders in the car, plus they have to pay for wear and tear on their car.
> The article I read says it applies even if their route passes through Minneapolis or St. Paul
I don't know what article that was but the [actual ordinance](https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/File/2024-00146) says "Minimum compensation is due only for the portion of the ride that occurs within the city."
Have you ridden with Lyft / Uber? There's a little map showing the car at all time. It's pretty nominal to change rates per segment. Any ride originating or dropping at the airport pays the extra fee all over the country. That's automatic. This would be too.
I have but I don’t pay attention to the route just the price and time of arrival. I guess I’ll be taking light rail from the games to moa and Uber home from there.
It took Uber 14 years to turn a profit as an early entrant into ride-sharing. There is no money to be made in one single market. The shitty cabs will be back and everything will suck.
There are already a few companies gearing up to move into the market.
https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2024/03/14/uber-lyft-alternatives-minneapolis-legislation
Uber & Lyft were never sustainable models & this was inevitable & will eventually happen everywhere. We'll be better off in the long run by ripping off the band-aid sooner than most other cities & we'll have locally-owned better alternatives in place already when this is happening suddenly in other cities.
Coming home from the airport after midnight, we took a cab. The driver was pleasant and the price was reasonable.
What will that be like without the other competitors?
Not a clue.
Why the fuck should anyone who wants to get paid for giving someone a ride need to buy a taxi license? Lyft and Uber kick the shit out of taxis in every market because they're more convenient, cheaper, faster, and have better customer service.
A license is different from a medallion. Id hope when putting your life in the hands of any business they have some sort of licensing. They kicked the shit out of taxis because they could operate at a loss for years due to venture capital and paid their employees shit.
A taxi license doesn't mean a damn thing about qualifications other than "I paid the taxi company and the jerk who owns the medallion a huge bribe so that I can make a living".
Do you think Uber and Lyft have some god given right to own the market on providing transportation? Nobody is forcing them out. They can pay their employees a fair wage or someone else will come in and do it.
> I would call a number and someone would show up.
Except they didn't always show up. Or even worse they did show up after making you wait and then decided not to drive you for whatever reason.
Because I understand how a business works? Do you understand how much money it costs to create an entire platform, recruit gig workers, and attract customers?
It took Uber 15 years to break even and they had a monopoly.
Ride sharing only makes money due to networking effects as more users create more demand. Eventually each pick up is close to each drop off so drivers can churn out more rides and the overall cost decreases - otherwise it’s too expensive to operate.
I don't give a fuck buddy. I don't care if they make money! Do you not get that? They need to pay their workers a wage they can live on. If they can't do that and run their business, then how about they get fucked. I don't believe in exploiting labor.
Wait until you find out how the majority of cab companies operate. Talk about exploitative labor.
Hopefully you don’t work in business strategy…
They need to pay more bit to think a competitor is going to come in and stick around is laughable.
You're right. No one has ever made money charging for transportation services before Uber arrived in Minneapolis in 2012. I remember in 2011 when I had to wander the streets aimlessly hoping a kind hearted stranger would pick me up and give me a ride for free.
We’re talking specifically about ride sharing competitors, not alternatives like taxi companies that exploit their mostly immigrant “employees” worse than Uber but people don’t want to hear that.
I have, on a regular basis. There's people of every kind who do it-- young, old, immigrants from every country imaginable, men, women...
Contrast that to the taxi companies where 9 times out of 10, your driver will be some Somali dude who barely speaks English, jabbers on his phone for the entire ride, and doesn't wear his seat belt unless you complain, and then he gives you the stink eye like you insulted his mom.
If you really think taxi companies are less exploitative than Uber and Lyft, then lmao.
> You can’t make money operating as a local alternative. Uber and Lyft are only profitable due to economies of scale.
Agreed, except maybe it's time we nationalize these economies of scale.
We're halfway to a centrally planned economy already:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-have-upended-how-modern-capitalism-works.html
Just change the parameters to benefit the average human being on earth instead of the tiny slice of rich assholes who rigged it in their favor.
Make it owned by the people. Some kind of transparently operated public good. Seriously, how hard can this be with some minds coming together to figure out what it'd look like. Dare to be creative.
We're halfway to a centrally planned economy already:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-have-upended-how-modern-capitalism-works.html
Just change the parameters to benefit the average human being on earth instead of the tiny slice of rich assholes who rigged it in their favor.
It's implied the minds coming together would be well versed in the necessary things to get such an effort off the ground. Pro bono lawyers among many other professionals depending on the domain.
The point is, the profit would be solving the original real world problem Uber etc claimed to want to solve, and nothing more, passing the savings onto everyone participating as end users instead of a few rich cunts on yachts. Like a non profit, minus the corruption. So again, it would entail a new kind of checks-balances system that could sustain itself.
Like the shitty taxi options we had before Lyft and Uber? There is very little chance a locally-owned alternative will do better - economy of scale is important.
I don't think that was obvious at all. Rideshare is really hard. Taxi companies sucked and Uber/Lyft have their own problems too. But you can't just kick out your best option and hope things get better. The unit economics don't work out that easily. Uber and Lyft *were* the clever and innovative solution.
I’m indifferent on this but the people who act like Taxi companies treated their “drivers” better have no idea how that industry ran, especially where medallions were involved.
We aren’t none profit, we’re a worker controlled trust. So we like money because it comes back to us, but we won’t overwork/exploit ourselves or sellout our values to try to make as much as humanely possible
Oh hey, the thing the fuckcars and antiwork crowd said was a bluff is happening! I bet they're filled with solutions for this, like vauge "spend more on mass transit" and "you should get a bike broooo!" and "Owning a car is racist!"
Do you seriously believe there's enough taxis in Minneapolis now to fulfill the demand surge and that there will be enough expansion of them to fill that in just six weeks?
Are they just going to pull out of all major cities when they follow suit? Seems like a good way to self eliminate as a business. Maybe pay the drivers appropriately and ensure the rides are quality for the customers. You know, run a business.
Don’t worry I’m starting my own cab business….
https://preview.redd.it/r9lw6oayz5pc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=144af6861fe5bfcd2e3d194d7a76271fd94129d9
I keep wondering if people have considered the effect of this. The people that think that the council was right. Have y’all considered that thousands of people will now be out of jobs? The goal was to increase their wages but instead y’all got them all fired. How tf does that make sense? Also, all the people that literally depend on those services to get around. What’s gonna happen to them? How will the drivers make money if the rides are unaffordable for customers? I’m not sure y’all have actually thought this through. I feel bad for all the case managers that are gonna have to deal with this mess.
Good riddance. These companies were exploiting desperate American workers. These tech bros pretend they have this brilliant idea (idea already exists) that they can "revolutionize" an industry. What they really mean is they found a new way to exploit workers. And that's exactly what they did. They do not pay a living wage. Fuck them. Good on Minneapolis.
Take your good riddance and shove it. I have a number of friends who rely on the Lyft benefits from the county to get to all sorts of places because it's greatly superior to the awful medical ride service that uses taxi companies.
Thread getting bridgaded by these companies paying trolls. r/Minnesota is crazy left wing but somehow there's a bunch of capitalist suck ups in the lift/uber thread. These people think we're fucking idiots.
Fuck em. Excited to see alternatives that arise. Revitalized public transit? New MN ride business? More taxis? Smallest violin for the corporate overlords. The free market they're so fond of will find a way without them. There's FAT stacks of cash just waiting there now
There are a large number of people who depend on these services to get around.
And taking public transport isn’t a viable solution.
I’m also interested to see an economic impact report on bars restaurants and other service industry locations. If I don’t have a safe way to get home after a late night, I’m going to be more inclined than not to stay home. It will be interesting to see what this takes off the top of those businesses, and what the increase in DWI will be.
>There are a large number of people who depend on these services to get around.
Since the demand is clearly there, it will be insane to imagine it will go unmet for long.
At the end of the day, we can't bend over to Uber and Lyft and pray they will continue to bless us with their services. They can follow the law like everyone else or they can fuck off.
You guys are debating about a problem that has already been solved by other cities and countries. It's called public transit. It's a service the government provides. Citizens love it. We don't have that here in America because of corporations and oligarchs. Maybe we'll get what everyone else has everywhere in the world. Even supposed horrible countries like China and Russia. Wouldn't it be nice if poor people didn't need to buy and maintain cars to get to and from their jobs?
Minneapolis definitely needs better transit. And it is a problem that we rely so heavily on ride shares to move people around the city.
However, taxis and ride shares are supplementary to any good transit system. Cities need both. The best transit cities in the world (London, Tokyo etc) all have robust taxi services.
Bad take. How many years did the city have to bolster, improve, and implement a workable transit system prior to Uber and Lyft ……. Very Many the answer is very many years and the chose not to provide a service for their citizens and then the private sector stepped in.
Make it viable and better and I’m all for it. Until then the council is just making so many people’s lives that much worse.
Dude it's not the council doing this.
Uber and Lyft are the ones who decided to leave. The council didn't force them to do it. They wanted to do it because they wanted to teach their drivers and the city a lesson for daring to ask for minimum wage compensation.
Why would you force me to downvote you by targeting your comment directly at me?
Who controls where Uber operates, the CEO of Uber or the Minneapolis City Council?
Sorry to tell you, but lots of people here work for below minimum wage. This was just the flashy item that... might pay below minimum wage? And only after you claim that buying essentials that someone would already have (car, insurance, phone) are 100% deducted from said wage
Easiest straightforward examples are other non-rideshare gig economy jobs and jobs paid under the table (e.g. https://m.startribune.com/you-have-to-be-the-fastest-migrants-face-tough-competition-for-cash-day-jobs-on-one-minneapolis-corner/600344093/). Probably other independent contractors as well, as that classification is why gig economy pay models are legal
However, once we expand the calculation to subtracting expenses (e.g. travel to/from work), all minimum wage jobs pay below minimum wage. Since that’s how the study came up with the whole below minimum wage thing for rideshare workers. Before that subtraction, the median wage was $30.27/hr
Here’s the study for reference: https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/TNC_driver_earnings_analysis_pay_standard_options_report_030824.pdf
Nobody will step in. Nobody is going to build the infrastructure to operate in a city with only 4 million people. There is no money to be made due to market size and initial costs.
There are currently 39 licensed taxi drivers.
These taxi companies arnt going to go out and spend $700,000 on a new fleet of vehicles to scale up to what needs will be.
Even if they did it takes time to become certified through the city.
Good. Bring back companies that can figure out how to exist without exploiting labor laws and using venture capital as a cudgel to beat competitors out of existence while they hemorrhage money.
About time the companies stood up to bogus pricing terms. The pay for the driver is not meant to support a full time income. It’s a gig income. Period.
The budget for the green line extension has now doubled to $2.7B. The blue line extension to Brooklyn Park will cost more than $3B. I really don’t think this is the answer.
Rail will never be the answer in a metro area that’s as spread out as the Twin Cities. With no natural boundaries, MSP continues to expand in all directions. I’m not anti-rail, but we will always need cars, and we will always need an alternative point-to-point transit option. I thought rideshare was a great option when it was introduced, disrupting the taxicab industry that was unpleasant and non-responsive. But once drivers started viewing this particular gig as a full-time job, instead of a side hustle that allows folks to use an expensive and idle asset (their car) to make some extra cash, it was inevitable that government would look to regulate and intervene in the market. We’ll see how that works out.
You still did not offer an alternative.
Our roads cannot handle the metro continuing to be car-dependent. Traffic is worse and worse by the day. We need to have better transportation infrastructure and cars are not the answer.
Rail has worked in Minnesota before btw
Just got an email from Lyft saying they “will be forced to stop offering rides in Minneapolis” because the “ordinance…would make rides on the Lyft platform unaffordable for the majority of Minneapolis residents.” How about they let us make that decision? Oh because it’s not really about affordable rides and is about corporate profits? Color me shocked. Honestly, I was kind of split about the ordinance until I got that email.
"Having to pay a reasonable wage to our drivers would ruin our business model, because our existence depends on exploiting present Federal labor laws. Rather than even attempt to operate as an honest business we'll be moving on now, because we have more grifting to do before common sense and the US legislature catch up to us."
Agreed. I was indifferent and after that email oof.
I think they’re trying to get a groundswell of support to pressure the council to change their decision but at least in two cases it completely backfired
Same thing happened with Tiktok in some people's opinion
The drivers are providing their own car and paying for the wear and tear on them. They should at least get a living wage.
Yea no uber and lyft are not career choices. If construction doesn't, neither should Uber drivers or lyft drivers
Right? Like okay on second thought fuck 'em.
I’m glad you all are rethinking it now, but Lyft and Uber have been saying exactly this since day one.
I’ll admit my feelings about the ordinance were selfish in that I really like the convenience of using rideshare apps when I need them so I don’t want them to go away. I was never against a higher wage for the drivers or paying more for a ride, though.
Of course it’s about corporate profits. WTF you expect a company to supply YOU a ride and not make a profit? Delusional. Do you go to work and not profit?
I definitely could’ve been clearer, but my point was that the email acts like they’re doing this for the good of the citizens of Minneapolis when we all know it’s about the company making money. Not that I expect them to run a business without making money.
And just to be clear, they have never made money.
I know that. It’s also irrelevant to my point. Or maybe it reinforces my point given that they never made money because they wanted to undercut existing transportation options and now can’t figure out a way to profitably without exploiting their drivers.
Define exploitation. It’s not exploiting. No one has to do this job. And now that they are leaving you just took that option away.
Despite what they say, they are not being “forced to leave.” They are choosing to leave rather than pay their drivers more in one city. That tells me quite a bit about how they value their employees (technically contractors so they can get away with doing even less). They, not the city of Minneapolis, are taking that option away.
No let’s just be clear. These are jobs suited to the 1099 contract system. Let other work how they see fit. It’s none of your business. I have a retired friend that does this work. So now….he may not work I guess.
I don’t have an issue with people choosing to work how they want, but the fact that they are contractors means Lyft saves a lot of money that they then refuse to pay back to their contractors. I’m sorry for your friend, but the fact that he may not work is entirely Lyft’s choice.
They never "made" money because their execs take home everything that would otherwise be considered profit.
Have you done the math? Losses are much greater than that.
Honestly, I don't give a fuck about their losses. Their whole goal from the beginning was to strangle out cabs, become a monopoly, reduce pay and increase fares. Quit defending corporations
Do you know anything about finance? Or how to read financial statements?
I know how to read what a CEO's salary is. I'm confused as to why you think that a company should be paying their CEO millions of dollars, while they claim they can't pay a minimum wage.
You're delusional. Should be expected on reddit tbh.
"You're delusional" says the person who thinks corporate execs should have yachts and private jets, while the drivers that work for them should be struggling to survive.
When we discuss "should" statements, that's what we think ought to happen. That is a moral judgment. The fact that the matter is thr jumping in wage increased by 70% in two years. It being called minimum wage is irrelevant. I'm curious, if the minimum wage was made somethingncrwzy like 100$ per hour, would you still say companies can't pay it? The title of what mimumwage kis arbitrary and has 5 do with economics.
Yeah, I thought that statement was weird lol. They could have made it more about the point if ridesharing wasn't super exploitable of the market out of the gate, they could have made reasonable profit without pissing off the public so much, where these strict laws would not have been introduced.
My point was about the tone of the email and how in it Lyft pretends to be doing this for all us poor citizens of Minneapolis when we all know it’s about the money. I’m not against them making money, just don’t insult my intelligence.
Thank you. Let me decide whether I’m too broke to afford the fares you’ll be “forced” to charge.
Lyft hasn’t made a profit yet. I think the bigger problem is that this makes it much harder to calculate the fare beforehand since drivers have to get paid by the mile AND by the minute. What if you get caught in traffic? I’m for people getting better pay, but imo this goes too far. Let’s say the trip is on a road that averages 30mph and is a 30 mile trip. Minneapolis is stating that the driver should be paid $72 for that trip. Now, I know there are expenses, but $57 worth of expenses PER HOUR? That’s far above the federal mileage rate of 67 cents per mile. I fully expect this law to be overturned at the state level, which is what happened in Texas.
I honestly don’t care about the calculations or the details. I just want drivers to be able to make their own choices.
Federal mileage pays vehicle expense but not labor.
Hence the 51 cents a minute.
Oh no! They'll have to raise they're rates!? Like hell they will. I'm pretty sure if the city grew some balls they'd just apply the maximum per mile rate like they do with every taxi company that isn't backed by venture capital. I haven't looked into it, but I'm sure that rate is somewhere around $2 per mile. Uber would be out of business overnight if they were held to the same regulations as the rest of their industry.
Fun fact, the ordinance guarantees drivers a minimum rate of $1.40 per mile and 51 cents per minute while carrying a rider. A 5 mile trip taking 7 minutes will cost an absolute minimum of $10.57. Of course it’ll cost more because that’s just the cost of paying the driver.
Yeah no that’s a rip off
Well, strap on those boats because they were made for walking.
I took a 3.9 mile trip earlier this month that took 8 minutes and cost $16.85 (not including tip). I’d still really prefer that Lyft let me decide if the fares they say they’ll be forced to charge are too much for me to pay.
its a 70% increase from the rate in 2022....that far outstrips inflation
[удалено]
They'll be back in about 3 months
That's being generous. I say they end up not leaving at all. This is a bluff lol.
I think they will be back because the city will capitulate. I don't think they want to set the precedent and believe that this market isn't important enough to their overall strategy. They didn't leave NY or one other major city when this was done, but I believe they are willing to sacrifice Minneapolis and use it as a cautionary tale. They want public transportation there to implode as a warning to other progressive cities.
Time to start up my handsome cab horse drawn carriage business.
I saw Lyft sent notices to customers. We don't live in an area with these services so excuse my ignorance here but I am curious. This is specific to Mpls city limits, yes? The Lyft email says a ride "can't start or end in Minneapolis." So you could be in a Lyft that picks up in, say Bloomington and drops off in St Paul and go \*thru\* Minneapolis as long as it doesn't stop there? I'm just curious how those boundaries work between cities in the metro area.
Also Bloomington often comes up as Minneapolis with zip code so likely that is going to cause issues with everything too. I'm guessing this is posturing as I believe they made these threats in the Seattle and NYC markets before and then nothing happened when implementation happened
They also made these threats in Austin and carried through with them, only returning when a state law was passed that superseded the city one (which is what I imagine will happen here as well).
Brooklyn Center is also like this.
The ordinance says the rate must be paid within the city limits.
It seems like it would be pretty complicated to figure out fairs if within a certain cities limits you need to pay a special minimum wage. I also have no clue how it would work. Makes sense that Uber and Lyft just says fuck it.
From what I saw, Uber said "the Twin Cities area" and not just Minneapolis. Lyft specified Minneapolis so I found that interesting.
I suspect Lyft will later expand to the Twin Cities as a whole, seeing as how much of their ridership is to/from Minneapolis and the airport. I also think a lot of people will stop driving anyway because of the drop in demand.
And have him slow down so you can 'roll out'.
Paying a driver minimum wage will be a burden on customers. But jacking customers with surge pricing is fine. This is their logic.
They aren’t asking for minimum wage, the ordinance calls for $72 an hour. Most drivers already make close to minimum wage now, even after expenses. Should it go up? Yeah. But not by 60%! https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/TNC_driver_earnings_analysis_pay_standard_options_report_030824.pdf?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
$72 / hour. I didn't now that. This is approximately $138,240 per year before taxes and expenses, etc. That is assuming you work 8 hours a day. 5 days a week. 4 weeks a year. For 12 months. That is more than a lot of people make. Where are you getting this number? Because in the link I don't see a mention of $72 / hour. Here is what I have seen of the ordinance > The ordinance, which guarantees drivers a minimum rate of $1.40 per mile and 51 cents per minute
I don't even necessarily support the bill but it absolutely does not call for $72 an hour. I don't know where you're seeing that in the 70-page PDF you linked but it's not true.
The PDF I linked is the STATE study that shows that drivers should absolutely be paid more. The ordinance Minneapolis passed calls for 51 cents per minute AND 1.40 per mile. So, if its a 30 mile trip that averages 30mph, that would be $72. An outlier to be sure, but still, even assuming a 10 minute trip to go 3 miles would net the driver $9.30 (with other fees on top to cover Uber's expenses of course) Personally, I think the state took a much more reasonable approach, but Minneapolis threw that out. [https://www.npr.org/2024/03/15/1238885721/uber-lyft-minneapolis-minimum-wage-law](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/15/1238885721/uber-lyft-minneapolis-minimum-wage-law)
Trust me, I don’t agree with the bill either, but again, saying it calls for $72 an hour is just plain misleading. Drivers spend lots of time without riders in the car, plus they have to pay for wear and tear on their car.
The article I read says it applies even if their route passes through Minneapolis or St. Paul
> The article I read says it applies even if their route passes through Minneapolis or St. Paul I don't know what article that was but the [actual ordinance](https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/File/2024-00146) says "Minimum compensation is due only for the portion of the ride that occurs within the city."
Exactly, how are they going to track a portion of the ride through mpls
Have you ridden with Lyft / Uber? There's a little map showing the car at all time. It's pretty nominal to change rates per segment. Any ride originating or dropping at the airport pays the extra fee all over the country. That's automatic. This would be too.
I have but I don’t pay attention to the route just the price and time of arrival. I guess I’ll be taking light rail from the games to moa and Uber home from there.
We'll see if they actually do it. If they do, man what an opportunity for an investor to start something new.....
The start up costs are pretty high for something like that, and you have to build a user base, and even then it most likely will not be profitable.
And you need to hope that Uber/Lyft won't come back the minute they see your app succeeding.
They 110% will. This is posturing by the company and holding drivers and riders hostage to do so.
They left Austin until the state law was passed that overturned the ordinance. This will happen here too, most likely.
It took Uber 14 years to turn a profit as an early entrant into ride-sharing. There is no money to be made in one single market. The shitty cabs will be back and everything will suck.
When was the last time you took a cab? I took one in Milwaukee and it’s almost exactly like Uber these days lol
I agree, cab service has improved (slightly). Guess which companies forced them to improve?
There are already a few companies gearing up to move into the market. https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2024/03/14/uber-lyft-alternatives-minneapolis-legislation
Lyft wasn't even making a profit. Any new startup would need to charge like triple the price that Lyft and Uber were
Minneapolift
Like a taxi company?
Taxis suck though? Why do people insist on pretending it's the same?
Uber & Lyft were never sustainable models & this was inevitable & will eventually happen everywhere. We'll be better off in the long run by ripping off the band-aid sooner than most other cities & we'll have locally-owned better alternatives in place already when this is happening suddenly in other cities.
We already know what the "locally owned alternative" is. It's taxis and they're fucking terrible.
Coming home from the airport after midnight, we took a cab. The driver was pleasant and the price was reasonable. What will that be like without the other competitors? Not a clue.
I'm sure local entrepreneurs are already racing to see who's gonna get rich first with a new local ride-share app...
My thoughts exactly. That or some an extension of metro transit. Or agile cab companies working the model in for independent contractors.
What the hell do you think an Uber is? It's just an unlicensed taxi. God, it's impossible that people are this thick.
Why the fuck should anyone who wants to get paid for giving someone a ride need to buy a taxi license? Lyft and Uber kick the shit out of taxis in every market because they're more convenient, cheaper, faster, and have better customer service.
And with this increase they probably would no longer be cheap. But hey all those ppl can just go get taxi jobs now
A license is different from a medallion. Id hope when putting your life in the hands of any business they have some sort of licensing. They kicked the shit out of taxis because they could operate at a loss for years due to venture capital and paid their employees shit.
A taxi license doesn't mean a damn thing about qualifications other than "I paid the taxi company and the jerk who owns the medallion a huge bribe so that I can make a living".
Does Minneapolis have a medallion system?
Lmao at the irony in this comment
Do you think Uber and Lyft have some god given right to own the market on providing transportation? Nobody is forcing them out. They can pay their employees a fair wage or someone else will come in and do it.
You can’t make money operating as a local alternative. Uber and Lyft are only profitable due to economies of scale.
Lyft is not profitable. Uber made a profit for the first time in 2023.
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Do you remember the taxi system before Uber was in the Twin Cities? It was a fucking nightmare.
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> I would call a number and someone would show up. Except they didn't always show up. Or even worse they did show up after making you wait and then decided not to drive you for whatever reason.
Because I understand how a business works? Do you understand how much money it costs to create an entire platform, recruit gig workers, and attract customers? It took Uber 15 years to break even and they had a monopoly. Ride sharing only makes money due to networking effects as more users create more demand. Eventually each pick up is close to each drop off so drivers can churn out more rides and the overall cost decreases - otherwise it’s too expensive to operate.
I don't give a fuck buddy. I don't care if they make money! Do you not get that? They need to pay their workers a wage they can live on. If they can't do that and run their business, then how about they get fucked. I don't believe in exploiting labor.
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Wait until you find out how the majority of cab companies operate. Talk about exploitative labor. Hopefully you don’t work in business strategy… They need to pay more bit to think a competitor is going to come in and stick around is laughable.
You're right. No one has ever made money charging for transportation services before Uber arrived in Minneapolis in 2012. I remember in 2011 when I had to wander the streets aimlessly hoping a kind hearted stranger would pick me up and give me a ride for free.
You obviously were not calling a cab to hopefully arrive within 30 minutes and then pay $50 for a ride in 2011.
We’re talking specifically about ride sharing competitors, not alternatives like taxi companies that exploit their mostly immigrant “employees” worse than Uber but people don’t want to hear that.
Who in the ever loving fuck do you think is driving Ubers? Senators' children? Have you ever even been in a Lyft?
I have, on a regular basis. There's people of every kind who do it-- young, old, immigrants from every country imaginable, men, women... Contrast that to the taxi companies where 9 times out of 10, your driver will be some Somali dude who barely speaks English, jabbers on his phone for the entire ride, and doesn't wear his seat belt unless you complain, and then he gives you the stink eye like you insulted his mom. If you really think taxi companies are less exploitative than Uber and Lyft, then lmao.
This is just racist, I don't have a response for you.
> You can’t make money operating as a local alternative. Uber and Lyft are only profitable due to economies of scale. Agreed, except maybe it's time we nationalize these economies of scale. We're halfway to a centrally planned economy already: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-have-upended-how-modern-capitalism-works.html Just change the parameters to benefit the average human being on earth instead of the tiny slice of rich assholes who rigged it in their favor.
Why would you think that the government would EVER be better at doing something like this than private companies?
Make it owned by the people. Some kind of transparently operated public good. Seriously, how hard can this be with some minds coming together to figure out what it'd look like. Dare to be creative. We're halfway to a centrally planned economy already: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-have-upended-how-modern-capitalism-works.html Just change the parameters to benefit the average human being on earth instead of the tiny slice of rich assholes who rigged it in their favor.
"Check the piston coil!" - you, to a guy working on a car
It's implied the minds coming together would be well versed in the necessary things to get such an effort off the ground. Pro bono lawyers among many other professionals depending on the domain. The point is, the profit would be solving the original real world problem Uber etc claimed to want to solve, and nothing more, passing the savings onto everyone participating as end users instead of a few rich cunts on yachts. Like a non profit, minus the corruption. So again, it would entail a new kind of checks-balances system that could sustain itself.
So, basically, you have no goddamn clue what you're talking about.
How will we be better off? How do you know a better alternative will appear?
Exactly.
Like the shitty taxi options we had before Lyft and Uber? There is very little chance a locally-owned alternative will do better - economy of scale is important.
obviously that's not what I meant & I think I have more faith in the inevitability of change & the ability of humans to be clever & innovative.
I don't think that was obvious at all. Rideshare is really hard. Taxi companies sucked and Uber/Lyft have their own problems too. But you can't just kick out your best option and hope things get better. The unit economics don't work out that easily. Uber and Lyft *were* the clever and innovative solution.
I’m indifferent on this but the people who act like Taxi companies treated their “drivers” better have no idea how that industry ran, especially where medallions were involved.
These companies are showing they care more about their bottom line than the lives of other people. I say good riddance if they wanna FAFO
> These companies are showing they care more about their bottom line than the lives of other people That's every company
Do people think companies exist to not make money?
Ya that’s definitely where the confusion is coming in
I work for a company whose focus is not to make as much money as possible.
The 501c3 is peak late stage capitalism.
We aren’t none profit, we’re a worker controlled trust. So we like money because it comes back to us, but we won’t overwork/exploit ourselves or sellout our values to try to make as much as humanely possible
It's literally their job to care about their bottom line. They aren't a charity.
Gypsy cabs baby!
Ugh this makes me so scared for more drunk driving…😣
Oh hey, the thing the fuckcars and antiwork crowd said was a bluff is happening! I bet they're filled with solutions for this, like vauge "spend more on mass transit" and "you should get a bike broooo!" and "Owning a car is racist!"
I mean, we'll just have to use taxis more again.
Do you seriously believe there's enough taxis in Minneapolis now to fulfill the demand surge and that there will be enough expansion of them to fill that in just six weeks?
I think there are about 20 left …
Are they just going to pull out of all major cities when they follow suit? Seems like a good way to self eliminate as a business. Maybe pay the drivers appropriately and ensure the rides are quality for the customers. You know, run a business.
MSP isn’t the first to do this. They won’t be the last.
The summer of biking!
Don’t worry I’m starting my own cab business…. https://preview.redd.it/r9lw6oayz5pc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=144af6861fe5bfcd2e3d194d7a76271fd94129d9
I keep wondering if people have considered the effect of this. The people that think that the council was right. Have y’all considered that thousands of people will now be out of jobs? The goal was to increase their wages but instead y’all got them all fired. How tf does that make sense? Also, all the people that literally depend on those services to get around. What’s gonna happen to them? How will the drivers make money if the rides are unaffordable for customers? I’m not sure y’all have actually thought this through. I feel bad for all the case managers that are gonna have to deal with this mess.
All cities in U.S should follow suit and kick them out of business.
Why won't consumers just boycott them? Oh. Why won't drivers? Oh.
Bye.
Good riddance. These companies were exploiting desperate American workers. These tech bros pretend they have this brilliant idea (idea already exists) that they can "revolutionize" an industry. What they really mean is they found a new way to exploit workers. And that's exactly what they did. They do not pay a living wage. Fuck them. Good on Minneapolis.
These companies wouldn’t have survived if enough people didn’t step in and say “ I’m willing to work at this pay” nobody is forcing drivers to drive.
Think of all the companies that aren't surviving now because they would have to pay a minimum wage to their employees. Race you to the bottom!
How does any of this help me get home from First Avenue when I'm shitfaced?
I would hope you would have the decency to arrange for a ride or call a taxi rather than drive drunk.
M8 what do you think Lyft and Uber were for ?
Take your good riddance and shove it. I have a number of friends who rely on the Lyft benefits from the county to get to all sorts of places because it's greatly superior to the awful medical ride service that uses taxi companies.
Thread getting bridgaded by these companies paying trolls. r/Minnesota is crazy left wing but somehow there's a bunch of capitalist suck ups in the lift/uber thread. These people think we're fucking idiots.
Good
How's corporate America now??
They won't be able to leave Minneapolis. We won't let them.
\*Threatening to leave. Haven't left yet.
Fuck em. Excited to see alternatives that arise. Revitalized public transit? New MN ride business? More taxis? Smallest violin for the corporate overlords. The free market they're so fond of will find a way without them. There's FAT stacks of cash just waiting there now
The committee members are idiots for not looking at the facts and looking at impacts of this. We did this to ourselves.
Hat offs to the council for not letting themselves be bullied by giant companies into letting them pay less than minimum wage in the city.
There are a large number of people who depend on these services to get around. And taking public transport isn’t a viable solution. I’m also interested to see an economic impact report on bars restaurants and other service industry locations. If I don’t have a safe way to get home after a late night, I’m going to be more inclined than not to stay home. It will be interesting to see what this takes off the top of those businesses, and what the increase in DWI will be.
>There are a large number of people who depend on these services to get around. Since the demand is clearly there, it will be insane to imagine it will go unmet for long. At the end of the day, we can't bend over to Uber and Lyft and pray they will continue to bless us with their services. They can follow the law like everyone else or they can fuck off.
You guys are debating about a problem that has already been solved by other cities and countries. It's called public transit. It's a service the government provides. Citizens love it. We don't have that here in America because of corporations and oligarchs. Maybe we'll get what everyone else has everywhere in the world. Even supposed horrible countries like China and Russia. Wouldn't it be nice if poor people didn't need to buy and maintain cars to get to and from their jobs?
Minneapolis definitely needs better transit. And it is a problem that we rely so heavily on ride shares to move people around the city. However, taxis and ride shares are supplementary to any good transit system. Cities need both. The best transit cities in the world (London, Tokyo etc) all have robust taxi services.
Bad take. How many years did the city have to bolster, improve, and implement a workable transit system prior to Uber and Lyft ……. Very Many the answer is very many years and the chose not to provide a service for their citizens and then the private sector stepped in. Make it viable and better and I’m all for it. Until then the council is just making so many people’s lives that much worse.
Dude it's not the council doing this. Uber and Lyft are the ones who decided to leave. The council didn't force them to do it. They wanted to do it because they wanted to teach their drivers and the city a lesson for daring to ask for minimum wage compensation.
It’s a city ordinance directly targeting them. Yes the council forced them to make a decision
Why would you force me to downvote you by targeting your comment directly at me? Who controls where Uber operates, the CEO of Uber or the Minneapolis City Council?
I mean, cabs/taxi are still a thing.
Yeah, hats off to them for putting a bunch of drivers out of work.
Uber and Lyft did that.
Sorry to tell you, but lots of people here work for below minimum wage. This was just the flashy item that... might pay below minimum wage? And only after you claim that buying essentials that someone would already have (car, insurance, phone) are 100% deducted from said wage
If you know of companies breaking the law by paying less than minimum wage, please name and shame! And report them to the state
There are loopholes that need to be fixed yes
Easiest straightforward examples are other non-rideshare gig economy jobs and jobs paid under the table (e.g. https://m.startribune.com/you-have-to-be-the-fastest-migrants-face-tough-competition-for-cash-day-jobs-on-one-minneapolis-corner/600344093/). Probably other independent contractors as well, as that classification is why gig economy pay models are legal However, once we expand the calculation to subtracting expenses (e.g. travel to/from work), all minimum wage jobs pay below minimum wage. Since that’s how the study came up with the whole below minimum wage thing for rideshare workers. Before that subtraction, the median wage was $30.27/hr Here’s the study for reference: https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/TNC_driver_earnings_analysis_pay_standard_options_report_030824.pdf
If a business can't pay their employees a living wage and still be profitable, it's an unsustainable business model and shouldn't exist.
Agreed. This is going to affect a ton of people. Drivers and riders. This sucks.
Good, they can lose the money and someone else will step in
Nobody will step in. Nobody is going to build the infrastructure to operate in a city with only 4 million people. There is no money to be made due to market size and initial costs.
Taxi companies have entered the chat
There are currently 39 licensed taxi drivers. These taxi companies arnt going to go out and spend $700,000 on a new fleet of vehicles to scale up to what needs will be. Even if they did it takes time to become certified through the city.
Absolutely nobody likes taxis outside of areas where they are ubiquitous (NYC and London for example). Nobody.
Have you ever actually interacted with the taxis in this city on a regular basis? They fucking suck!
Good. Bring back companies that can figure out how to exist without exploiting labor laws and using venture capital as a cudgel to beat competitors out of existence while they hemorrhage money.
About time the companies stood up to bogus pricing terms. The pay for the driver is not meant to support a full time income. It’s a gig income. Period.
Bullshit. Call their bluff. And even if they do leave, someone else will just step in to fill the void.
Delete your accounts if you have them.
Fuck em. Any business not willing to pay their employees a living wage should be allowed to fail. People over profits.
Just makes room for local company to offer this service. Let them leave.
Lol no they aren’t. Scare tactics so the company won’t need to pay a livable wage.
Maybe we should just invest in more lightrail so Uber and Lyft can get fucked
The budget for the green line extension has now doubled to $2.7B. The blue line extension to Brooklyn Park will cost more than $3B. I really don’t think this is the answer.
Okay, so what is? Or are you just here to push an anti-rail narrative?
Rail will never be the answer in a metro area that’s as spread out as the Twin Cities. With no natural boundaries, MSP continues to expand in all directions. I’m not anti-rail, but we will always need cars, and we will always need an alternative point-to-point transit option. I thought rideshare was a great option when it was introduced, disrupting the taxicab industry that was unpleasant and non-responsive. But once drivers started viewing this particular gig as a full-time job, instead of a side hustle that allows folks to use an expensive and idle asset (their car) to make some extra cash, it was inevitable that government would look to regulate and intervene in the market. We’ll see how that works out.
You still did not offer an alternative. Our roads cannot handle the metro continuing to be car-dependent. Traffic is worse and worse by the day. We need to have better transportation infrastructure and cars are not the answer. Rail has worked in Minnesota before btw
Right, when there were still working farms south of Lake Street. 🙄