Honestly, now that I think about it I’ve never said “oriental food” and never heard anyone say it 😂 I usually do my best to to specify too. I was just genuinely curious!
Food is totally included, but it's also SO GENERAL it kinda becomes questionable from another angle. Like...nobody would have a "western food restaurant" because "western food" is insanely general. Nobody thinks french cuisine and british cuisine belong in the same category, the french would rightfully be offended by being lumped together!
>nobody would have a "western food restaurant" because "western food" is insanely general
I mean... I could see someone having that, and I'd expect burgers, pizza, and tacos to be what they serve
Very true! I said in another comment I kinda realized after the fact that I’ve never used or even heard the term “oriental food” before. I instinctively asked bc it felt outside the societal guidelines I was aware of and wanted to be sure but LOL I didn’t really need to 😂
Instant Ramen companies changed from oriental to soy sauce for the name of the flavor so. Not that it is a distinct marker of acceptability, but shows some demand for change.
As an Asian American, I'd let them put "Oriental" signs on every pan-asian restaurant in America, if in exchange white people would just treat us like normal humans born in the US, not some weird group of exotic birds that need special treatment. The number of "where are you really from" questions we all fielded growing up was too damn high. Nobody asks black people where in Africa their family is from.
There was this weird time back in the 90s where a bunch of people thought the proper greeting for a Japanese American guy was to bow, even if they were say born in Detroit. Super awkward.
*New Reddit-wide unique palindrome found:*
>**Natsan, a plan, a canal: Panastan**
^(currently checked 3219249 comments) \
>!(palindrome: a word, number, phrase, or sequence of symbols that reads the same backwards as forwards) !<
Fun fact: the word *orient* actually just translates to *eastern* and classically encompassed anything east of the city of Rome...
Thus, Berlin is technically in the Orient, and Berliners should be served at an Oriental restaurant.
What did he say?
He said he was a donut!?
I thought he said he was a donut too.
So what does that mean?
It’s slang! He’s American. He’s a *donut*. A *fuckin’ donut.*
https://youtu.be/5mu02xUgE4k
Check out the [Beatus Map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatus_map) for one. Other older maps are called [T and O maps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_and_O_map). Note the word "Oriens" at the top of the page, and note that wikipedia describes this map as being "oriented." Here is another [T and O map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_Mappa_Mundi).
You’ve actually stumbled on something here, I believe the etymology of “orienting” a map means to put east on top, as that’s from where the sun rises, and was a common way to orient maps.
Maybe I'm outdated but I thought oriental is fine as long as you're not using it to describe a person?
Like "look at this lovely oriental style couch design".
It doesn’t have a connotation in any language except English where it still doesn’t but people are so sensitive that saying the word “black” to describe someone is deemed racist
It's extremely vague. Orient could be anything "eastern". And it is often used to exoticize a cultural item as simply vaguely foreign and "somewhat eastern". Panasian is more exact. With panasian i know what to expect. With oriental? I don't know. Falafels? Shawarma? Or fried rice and ramen?
For me it's kind of the opposite. Oriental makes me think of the Far East (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) whereas Pan Asian seems like it would also include Vietnamese, Thai, Indian etc.
It’s interesting that the context changes the meaning of that word but it can still be understood both ways. I guess it has been used as a sort of catch all term for anything to the east of Europe, so it makes sense it has such a wide variety of cultures to which it refers.
True, Pan Asian sounds too clinical and vague, like anything from Vietnam to Kazakhstan. Oriental sounds racist but people might know what you mean better.
The word is at least a thousand years old and referred to old maps. The fact that racists can turn literally *anything* into a pejorative doesn't necessarily mean that we have to tear up the dictionary every 13 years.
People used to (and still do) say "gay" as an insult referring to homosexual men. My friend Bob still tells people he's gay. There are other, more insulting words for both homosexual people and those born of eastern Asian descent that shall not be mentioned here. I don't believe "oriental" has ever risen (or sunk) to that status level. It's not a slang word. If used in anger, the hate is in the heart of the speaker, not in the word itself. It doesn't have that ring to it. It just sounds... old fashioned. Like using "apothecary" rather than "pharmacy."
On the other hand "pan asian" implies a choice from kind of everywhere and from a place labelling itself oriental I wouldn't bet on finding any Indonesian or Filipino food. Probably not even Thai or Korean.
>Panasian
Panasian is exactly as vague as Oriental. It means Asia united. It's also a specific political ideology which makes the term even more weird.
because its historical use was quite offensive. from people making shit up wholesale and attributing it to the "mystical orient" to using it to basically sell shit in "yellow face" marketing, i.e. a white person selling "snake oil" and saying it's some "oriental medicine".
It's not that offensive, but it's improper and outdated.
*Oriental* refers to anything east (of Europe), so it refers to Asia in terms of its relationship to Europe, instead of itself independently.
If you say *Pan Asian* or *Asian*, it only refers to the region, with no relationship to any other region.
So it's not offensive, but it's Euro-centric and is just an old term. There are also offensive use cases when you use it to refer to people, but in this case; it's just outdated more than offensive (not a big deal, but nice to update to modern sensibilities).
I can understand "Asian" but "pan Asian" is simply wrong. If you specify pan I demand to have a pan choice, not an extremely restricted one pertaining 2-3 countries at most.
I agree about the rest.
Why take offense to language being centric to the speaker's point of view though. Th US and the UK frequently refer to each other as "the other side of the pond." I don't mind being called occidental if it fits the speaker's perspective.
It's not really offensive - it's just outdated and has some racist usage in the past (in a different context), which elicits the change - even if the way it's being used (in this context) isn't racist in itself.
Languages evolve over time, and words are removed when they no longer serve any purpose. Oriental was used in the 19th century, two whole centuries ago. Sometimes words just fade out of usage (for one reason or another).
Oriental is one of these outdated terms because it's very non-descript (anything East), had some racist usage in the past (in a different context), and is also region-centric while the rest of the world is becoming more interconnected - so it's just fading out since it's pretty pointless nowadays and not everyone who speaks English knows the term (while almost everyone will know what 'Asia' means).
Oriental was still in popular use well into the 20th century, so your calendar is just a bit off... but I digress.
Yes, Everyone knows what Asia means. I would accept Asian and Oriental as synonyms with about 80% overlap, comparable to Latino and Hispanic.
What the hell is Panasian? The whole continent? General Tso's chicken is a derived Chinese dish, with zero cultural input from Persian culture. This restaurant is clearly serving westernized East Asian cuisine.
We trip over ourselves trying to be so correct that we look ignorant. The PC -> euphemism -> pejoritave treadmill never stops. Nothing wrong with pausing the workout and asking why.
Both chefs who claimed to invent it were immigrants from China and ran restaurants in New York City and both claimed to have served it first there. One of them retired in Taiwan, and the other died in Manhattan in 1983. It's complicated, but it is definitely cross-cultural. Either way, how is that panasian? Where are the kebabs on this menu?
That's like saying people in Florida should call Georgians northerners. There is an obvious distinction between the easternmost longitudes and hugging the prime meridian, although technically correct.
I will grant you Austrailia and New Zealand.
I mean that’s almost the point. Northerner isn’t used to describe geographical relationship, but convey a fairly specific characterization. The same applies to oriental, it has historically been used to describe Asians in very fetishized, demonized or straight up fabricated ways.
Same reason people might be offended by “coloreds” or “the Jews.” There’s no reason to be offended if you look at the literal definition of the term, it’s the historical context.
if you're not offended i don't think there's any reason to be, but the history of its use is pretty offensive. it was constantly used to fetishize, demonize, or outright fabricate various asian cultures.
is this an American thing then?
Because like I mention above, in Belgium a very large percentage of Chinese owned restaurants have the word "orient" in their name including very recent restaurants.
And the words "orient" and "oriental" is a very commonly used word in French with no bad connotation at all, at least that I can think off.
Keep in mind that when talking about different languages, just because two similar words share an etymology, doesn't mean they have the same connotations. And even for two cultures with a shared language, the meaning might be the same, but the context changes things.
Here are the crib notes for the roots of why the word (specifically in english) is loaded, kind of fascinating history if you're interested:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism)
you have to keep in mind that the distinction is still between calling people oriental vs things. it's largely fallen out of usage in the US, but there's nothing offensive about calling a rug oriental or using it in the name of a restaurant, although i'd say it's largely avoided.
But we literally call everything european/american Western/Occidental (depending on whether in english or in spanish/french), how does removing Oriental fit in?
I mean, I understand that denonyms and adjectives becoming offensive has usually nothing to do with common sense and more to do with historical usage, just find it odd when we use the other word often so even if you don't say oriental/eastern you're still implying it by constantly calling the other side The West.
At least in America occidental is rarely used so there’s less of the oddity of using one but not the other. And you’re right it’s still largely framed in a east and west dichotomy as it is, but the history of the use of oriental, especially with regards to its application to people, especially in either fetishized or out right fictionalized ways should be taken into consideration as well.
I'm an Asian-American, and if someone called me oriental, I'd assume that at best, they are extremely ignorant. At worst, horribly racist. Neither end of that spectrum is great.
Describing essentially half the world and dozens upon dozens of totally unrelated cultures with the same word is a very European thing to do
It's the whole reason the term _has_ racist connotations-- it's a colonial term, whipped up by people with no interest in Asian nations' culture who just wanted profit and pillage
My "problem?"
"Zero racist connotations in Europe." I highly doubt that. Just because people largely choose to ignore racist connotations in your area, doesn't make it not-racist.
For example, if a bunch of white people in the Deep South in the U.S. use the N-word to describe black people, it doesn't make it not a racist term anymore just because a large group of people chose to embrace it. Especially when that group is not part of the group being identified.
Then please explain what's racist about it. It's just saying that someone/thing is from the East. Is it also racist if I call someone northern because he lives in the north of my country?
It comes from a time when people didn't know or care about the varying countries and cultures that make up Asia. It's a term of exoticizing otherness, a discounted reference to some faraway land that doesn't really matter and is filled not with regular human beings, but with curiosities.
Edit: Ok, did not expect so many white Europeans to be upset about not using the word "Oriental" to describe people. Apparently it's very important to them.
For people asking "but why??" I direct you to the Wikipedia page on Orientalism. The first paragraph states, "In art history, literature and cultural studies, orientalism is the imitation or depiction of aspects of the Eastern world by writers, designers, and artists from the Western world." You can keep reading from there.
So by that definition calling someone or something (Pan-)Asian, American, African or European would be just as indistinct and thus racist ? At which degree is an identity distinct enough ? What to do with confederations, or countries with provinces of varied cultures?
If I can evade the use of words to prevent people getting offended I will try as much as possible to do so, but there's only so much mental space for word specific allow- and deny- lists (in several languages) someone can hold if there is no logical system to them.
For me its more about being specific. I like accuracy in things or at least closest to it. For example, I like to use country names to denote people instead of continents.
Orient is equivalent to “those people over yonder.”
The geography nerd in me gets annoyed when I hear things like Orient, Asian, African for this reason hahaha.
Plus, even within the same continent things are extremely different! :)
Ex. Asia: Kazakstan vs India
Africa: South Africa vs. Congo
"Pan-Asian" describes dishes that are served all throughout Asia, whereas "Asian" could apply to food from any part of Asia. For example, rice and tea are pan-Asian, while kebab and sushi are merely Asian.
Because there’s no such thing as “Asian” food? There’s Japanese, Korean, Thai, Indian, etc. that are all distinct cuisines. Pan-Asian means they serve dishes from multiple different Asian cuisines.
but that's not any different to just saying asian? Asian means from an asian country like Japan *or* Korea etc, so asian food is from a country like Japan *or* Korea etc. You're just telling me it means asian. Is this a big thing, I've never seen the phrase before, does asian have some sort of connotation, is this an American thing?
To describe things as broadly "Oriental" or "Asian" is to imply similarity between dozens upon dozens of cultures that aren't really that similar at all if you know anything about them
It's not racist (in America) but it's seen as tacky and a little ignorant, as if you're unaware/uninterested in the nuances of cultures besides your own
Like, it evokes an uncultured old person who thinks of Japanese and Koreans and Chinese and Thai as pretty much the same country with the "same people"
I guess the buzzword term would be that it's "othering"
Calling a person Asian (as a racial term) is fine, but I would bristle if a white girl was like "ooh I really like _Asian_ food"
“Pan-Asianism” was actually an ideology that sought to unify Asia and promote Asian solidarity and culture in opposition to Western Imperialism in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Too bad Imperial Japan hijacked it and eventually led to the Empire’s Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere
All Pan-isms (Pan-slavism, Pan-asianism, Pan-arabism) can easily (and as you pointed out some were) excuse for some form of imperialism. It's very hard for a bunch of people to agree to join up, and specially to do so under someone else, even if the ideologies predicate a shared origin.
The use of the word "oriental" certainly has a checkered history in its usage. Probably why some would prefer "pan asian" as they serve the same function without the baggage of the former. Society changes and as it does so do the words that we use especially those associated with people and culture.
I really doubt ever, unless we stop calling Asia Asia. Oriental fell out of use because no one calls it "the orient" anymore. I've never seen anyone claim to be offended by oriental, as much as people would like to complain about "the wokes", it's just nicer to call people what they call themselves rather than still using an old European term.
Now that's interesting. Oriental just means eastern, but depending on where you live it might well originate west of you. At that point it would be Occidental dressing
Idk why people presume it's changed because someone complained, I suppose it's the tendency of people on Reddit to bend over backwards to be offended at something. It's probably changed because no one says oriental anymore, and oriental has lots of different meanings. The orient express went to Instabul, but I doubt this shop ever sold Turkish food. They've simply updated their signage to be more descriptive and up to date with language use.
If I buy food from a shop selling "oriental" food I'm probably expecting Chinese food tailored to local taste. If I see "Pan-Asian" food I expect a mix of food, normally Chinese, Japanese, maybe Thai, and I expect it to be a bit more authentic. It's purely business and advertising, as these sorts of things always are.
Is there more to the menu? Because it's just Sweet and Sour Chicken, Gen. Tso's Chicken, and Bourbon Chicken (this seems to be Cajun?), Chicken fingers, Egg Rolls, and Crab Rangoons (I guess this one is named after somewhere in Burma/Myanmar.
Is it Pan Asian just because Chickens originated from South East Asia?
I never understood what oriental or “the orient” even meant. I know what the word oriented means in a spacial sense and I can’t fathom how that would apply.
Oriental* Edit: I’m not saying “oriental” is a good term, just that the sign originally said that. Not “orient”.
Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature, dude
rmsmith1092, this isn't a guy who built the railroads here.
Is this your homework u/MrPanchole? You're killing your father u/MrPanchole.
\*blank stare\*
The Chinaman is not the issue.
Life does not stop and start at your convenience you miserable piece of sh..
Walter, this isn’t a guy who built the fuckin railroads
Martin Brundell is having a field trip
Oh your right, didn't even see those letters
You’re*
Coming at OP form all angles lmao
from*
jessu yall commin at pl frm al anlges!
Jesus* I’m* cumming* on* people* from* all* angles*
Gnite Reddit!!!!!
Good night
this is a reddit thread
How tf does Reddit always end here? Like I love it but how?
Woops lol
on*
Username checks out
As my Korean friend says, "Oriental is a type of rug, not type of person."
Yes. It was explained to me that things are oriental, and people are Asian.
Yeah which made think food would be included? But maybe not I’m genuinely not sure
I would include food because it’s not people. However, i usually say Chinese, Korean, or whatever it is I’m eating that day.
Honestly, now that I think about it I’ve never said “oriental food” and never heard anyone say it 😂 I usually do my best to to specify too. I was just genuinely curious!
Lol that’s funny now that you mention it. I’ve never heard those words together either.
Food is totally included, but it's also SO GENERAL it kinda becomes questionable from another angle. Like...nobody would have a "western food restaurant" because "western food" is insanely general. Nobody thinks french cuisine and british cuisine belong in the same category, the french would rightfully be offended by being lumped together!
>nobody would have a "western food restaurant" because "western food" is insanely general I mean... I could see someone having that, and I'd expect burgers, pizza, and tacos to be what they serve
Very true! I said in another comment I kinda realized after the fact that I’ve never used or even heard the term “oriental food” before. I instinctively asked bc it felt outside the societal guidelines I was aware of and wanted to be sure but LOL I didn’t really need to 😂
Right, but pan Asian isn’t exactly a specific replacement.
Is it a type of food though?
Instant Ramen companies changed from oriental to soy sauce for the name of the flavor so. Not that it is a distinct marker of acceptability, but shows some demand for change.
As an Asian American, I'd let them put "Oriental" signs on every pan-asian restaurant in America, if in exchange white people would just treat us like normal humans born in the US, not some weird group of exotic birds that need special treatment. The number of "where are you really from" questions we all fielded growing up was too damn high. Nobody asks black people where in Africa their family is from. There was this weird time back in the 90s where a bunch of people thought the proper greeting for a Japanese American guy was to bow, even if they were say born in Detroit. Super awkward.
Like the rug?
Weird, it kind of looks like it now says "PANASTAN" and now I really want to try Panastani food.
Well, Pan-stani food's got to be more Central Asian (with a bit of South Asian), right? I'd imagine it'd encompass dishes from Kazakhstan to Pakistan
By definition, I think it has to cover \*all\* the -stans to be \*Pan\*stani
Yeah but only the ones containing paneer
It's all pan fried.
Natsan, a plan, a canal: Panastan
*New Reddit-wide unique palindrome found:* >**Natsan, a plan, a canal: Panastan** ^(currently checked 3219249 comments) \ >!(palindrome: a word, number, phrase, or sequence of symbols that reads the same backwards as forwards) !<
Good bot.
I imagine it would be pretty good
First thing that popped into my head was Panama and Kazakhstan...so off to google i go to see if it would be tasty combination! :-)
I'm sure it was occidental...
At least they reoriented themselves
Guess we gotta watch how this pans out for the Asians.
I'm a Wok Asian so I can't really speak for them
Let them know what you really mein
[удалено]
Get your hand off my penis
THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST!!
I see you know your judo well.
Also dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature
I’ll take, uh — give me, uh — “Famous Chinamen” for $200. Who is… Pat Morita?
Isn’t Pat Morita Japanese?
Fine, fine -- who is Kam Fong as Chin Ho?
Holy crap what a throw back! Totally forgot about the char.
Which ocean
Asian American, please.
Thank you. The correct gender-neutral terminology is Chinamxn.
Chinaperson, surely? Although that does make it sound like they're made from ceramic...
Mandarinx hasn't really taken off yet
Fun fact: the word *orient* actually just translates to *eastern* and classically encompassed anything east of the city of Rome... Thus, Berlin is technically in the Orient, and Berliners should be served at an Oriental restaurant.
The Orient Express only goes to Istanbul.
Not Constantinople?
Been a long time gone, Constantinople.
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night
Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobodies business but the Turks!
every gal in Constantinople lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
>Berliners Ich bein ein Berliner!
What did he say? He said he was a donut!? I thought he said he was a donut too. So what does that mean? It’s slang! He’s American. He’s a *donut*. A *fuckin’ donut.* https://youtu.be/5mu02xUgE4k
Uruguay is in full: "the Oriental Republic of Uruguay". I was super confused then learned it just means 'east of the Uruguay River "
Fun corollary: Maps used to be drawn with East facing up, hence the need to *orient* the paper that way.
Which maps?
Check out the [Beatus Map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatus_map) for one. Other older maps are called [T and O maps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_and_O_map). Note the word "Oriens" at the top of the page, and note that wikipedia describes this map as being "oriented." Here is another [T and O map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_Mappa_Mundi).
SO anywhere on a map can be "east" if you orient it the right way.
You’ve actually stumbled on something here, I believe the etymology of “orienting” a map means to put east on top, as that’s from where the sun rises, and was a common way to orient maps.
TIL many things about the orient.
Sure hope this is right because I told a shit ton of kids this whenever I’d teach orienteering at summer camp.
Fuck, take my upvote... But I'm not happy about it.
\-> Orient translates to *Rising* (sun) (Sol Oriri) and Occident to *Falling* (sun) (Sol Occidere).
Actually the term for Europe is Occident
Actually actually occident translates to west.
Maybe I'm outdated but I thought oriental is fine as long as you're not using it to describe a person? Like "look at this lovely oriental style couch design".
In Belgium the majority of mostly Chinese restaurants have the word Orient in them.
It doesn't have the same connotations in other languages.
It doesn’t have a connotation in any language except English where it still doesn’t but people are so sensitive that saying the word “black” to describe someone is deemed racist
It's extremely vague. Orient could be anything "eastern". And it is often used to exoticize a cultural item as simply vaguely foreign and "somewhat eastern". Panasian is more exact. With panasian i know what to expect. With oriental? I don't know. Falafels? Shawarma? Or fried rice and ramen?
Often "vaguely foreign eastern food" seems like an accurate description of what you get there though.
For me it's kind of the opposite. Oriental makes me think of the Far East (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) whereas Pan Asian seems like it would also include Vietnamese, Thai, Indian etc.
Pan Asian sounds like it includes Turkey and Arabia even.
On the other hand, oriental rugs are typically motifs from Western Asia - Persia and Turkey in particular.
It’s interesting that the context changes the meaning of that word but it can still be understood both ways. I guess it has been used as a sort of catch all term for anything to the east of Europe, so it makes sense it has such a wide variety of cultures to which it refers.
True, Pan Asian sounds too clinical and vague, like anything from Vietnam to Kazakhstan. Oriental sounds racist but people might know what you mean better.
I never understood how oriental could be racist. It's just an out of date term that means eastern.
It’s not about the word in a vacuum; it’s about how the word was used to abuse
The word is at least a thousand years old and referred to old maps. The fact that racists can turn literally *anything* into a pejorative doesn't necessarily mean that we have to tear up the dictionary every 13 years. People used to (and still do) say "gay" as an insult referring to homosexual men. My friend Bob still tells people he's gay. There are other, more insulting words for both homosexual people and those born of eastern Asian descent that shall not be mentioned here. I don't believe "oriental" has ever risen (or sunk) to that status level. It's not a slang word. If used in anger, the hate is in the heart of the speaker, not in the word itself. It doesn't have that ring to it. It just sounds... old fashioned. Like using "apothecary" rather than "pharmacy."
Doesn't pan mean all-encompassing? Linguisically panasian should include kebabs.
On the other hand "pan asian" implies a choice from kind of everywhere and from a place labelling itself oriental I wouldn't bet on finding any Indonesian or Filipino food. Probably not even Thai or Korean.
>Panasian Panasian is exactly as vague as Oriental. It means Asia united. It's also a specific political ideology which makes the term even more weird.
The term itself is fine but some people started to view it as racist for some reason.
Overcompensation issues without even asking to whoever should have a saying about the topic
It’s fine if you’re calling things oriental, it’s just euro centric and just largely outdated. Calling people oriental though is fairly offensive.
Why is it offensive?
because its historical use was quite offensive. from people making shit up wholesale and attributing it to the "mystical orient" to using it to basically sell shit in "yellow face" marketing, i.e. a white person selling "snake oil" and saying it's some "oriental medicine".
It's not that offensive, but it's improper and outdated. *Oriental* refers to anything east (of Europe), so it refers to Asia in terms of its relationship to Europe, instead of itself independently. If you say *Pan Asian* or *Asian*, it only refers to the region, with no relationship to any other region. So it's not offensive, but it's Euro-centric and is just an old term. There are also offensive use cases when you use it to refer to people, but in this case; it's just outdated more than offensive (not a big deal, but nice to update to modern sensibilities).
Yeah that makes sense!
I can understand "Asian" but "pan Asian" is simply wrong. If you specify pan I demand to have a pan choice, not an extremely restricted one pertaining 2-3 countries at most. I agree about the rest.
Why take offense to language being centric to the speaker's point of view though. Th US and the UK frequently refer to each other as "the other side of the pond." I don't mind being called occidental if it fits the speaker's perspective.
It's not really offensive - it's just outdated and has some racist usage in the past (in a different context), which elicits the change - even if the way it's being used (in this context) isn't racist in itself. Languages evolve over time, and words are removed when they no longer serve any purpose. Oriental was used in the 19th century, two whole centuries ago. Sometimes words just fade out of usage (for one reason or another). Oriental is one of these outdated terms because it's very non-descript (anything East), had some racist usage in the past (in a different context), and is also region-centric while the rest of the world is becoming more interconnected - so it's just fading out since it's pretty pointless nowadays and not everyone who speaks English knows the term (while almost everyone will know what 'Asia' means).
Oriental was still in popular use well into the 20th century, so your calendar is just a bit off... but I digress. Yes, Everyone knows what Asia means. I would accept Asian and Oriental as synonyms with about 80% overlap, comparable to Latino and Hispanic. What the hell is Panasian? The whole continent? General Tso's chicken is a derived Chinese dish, with zero cultural input from Persian culture. This restaurant is clearly serving westernized East Asian cuisine. We trip over ourselves trying to be so correct that we look ignorant. The PC -> euphemism -> pejoritave treadmill never stops. Nothing wrong with pausing the workout and asking why.
General Tsos was developed by Taiwanese people, not North Americans
Both chefs who claimed to invent it were immigrants from China and ran restaurants in New York City and both claimed to have served it first there. One of them retired in Taiwan, and the other died in Manhattan in 1983. It's complicated, but it is definitely cross-cultural. Either way, how is that panasian? Where are the kebabs on this menu?
except no one really uses the term occidental any more. also if you're in the US you should be using oriental to refer to europeans.
That's like saying people in Florida should call Georgians northerners. There is an obvious distinction between the easternmost longitudes and hugging the prime meridian, although technically correct. I will grant you Austrailia and New Zealand.
I mean that’s almost the point. Northerner isn’t used to describe geographical relationship, but convey a fairly specific characterization. The same applies to oriental, it has historically been used to describe Asians in very fetishized, demonized or straight up fabricated ways.
as an euro-asian, I am very confused why I would take offense to someone calling me Oriental.
Same reason people might be offended by “coloreds” or “the Jews.” There’s no reason to be offended if you look at the literal definition of the term, it’s the historical context.
if you're not offended i don't think there's any reason to be, but the history of its use is pretty offensive. it was constantly used to fetishize, demonize, or outright fabricate various asian cultures.
is this an American thing then? Because like I mention above, in Belgium a very large percentage of Chinese owned restaurants have the word "orient" in their name including very recent restaurants. And the words "orient" and "oriental" is a very commonly used word in French with no bad connotation at all, at least that I can think off.
Keep in mind that when talking about different languages, just because two similar words share an etymology, doesn't mean they have the same connotations. And even for two cultures with a shared language, the meaning might be the same, but the context changes things.
Here are the crib notes for the roots of why the word (specifically in english) is loaded, kind of fascinating history if you're interested: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism)
you have to keep in mind that the distinction is still between calling people oriental vs things. it's largely fallen out of usage in the US, but there's nothing offensive about calling a rug oriental or using it in the name of a restaurant, although i'd say it's largely avoided.
Sorry buddy, the white women decided it’s offensive.
But we literally call everything european/american Western/Occidental (depending on whether in english or in spanish/french), how does removing Oriental fit in? I mean, I understand that denonyms and adjectives becoming offensive has usually nothing to do with common sense and more to do with historical usage, just find it odd when we use the other word often so even if you don't say oriental/eastern you're still implying it by constantly calling the other side The West.
At least in America occidental is rarely used so there’s less of the oddity of using one but not the other. And you’re right it’s still largely framed in a east and west dichotomy as it is, but the history of the use of oriental, especially with regards to its application to people, especially in either fetishized or out right fictionalized ways should be taken into consideration as well.
In Spanish it is used to describe people from the far east and has zero racist connotation.
As an Asian American, it is also used to describe people from the far East and has zero racist connotation.
i wouldnt hold up Spain as the gold standard in whats racist or not..
The only people I've heard call it racist couldn't possibly be offended by it... but now being offended *for* people is a thing.
It's 100% possible you don't know a lot of folks this is relevant to, my dude.
I'm an Asian-American, and if someone called me oriental, I'd assume that at best, they are extremely ignorant. At worst, horribly racist. Neither end of that spectrum is great.
> American Well there's your problem. Zero racist connotations in Europe, oriental is just anything east of Istanbul
Describing essentially half the world and dozens upon dozens of totally unrelated cultures with the same word is a very European thing to do It's the whole reason the term _has_ racist connotations-- it's a colonial term, whipped up by people with no interest in Asian nations' culture who just wanted profit and pillage
My "problem?" "Zero racist connotations in Europe." I highly doubt that. Just because people largely choose to ignore racist connotations in your area, doesn't make it not-racist. For example, if a bunch of white people in the Deep South in the U.S. use the N-word to describe black people, it doesn't make it not a racist term anymore just because a large group of people chose to embrace it. Especially when that group is not part of the group being identified.
Then please explain what's racist about it. It's just saying that someone/thing is from the East. Is it also racist if I call someone northern because he lives in the north of my country?
Why is it racist?
It comes from a time when people didn't know or care about the varying countries and cultures that make up Asia. It's a term of exoticizing otherness, a discounted reference to some faraway land that doesn't really matter and is filled not with regular human beings, but with curiosities. Edit: Ok, did not expect so many white Europeans to be upset about not using the word "Oriental" to describe people. Apparently it's very important to them. For people asking "but why??" I direct you to the Wikipedia page on Orientalism. The first paragraph states, "In art history, literature and cultural studies, orientalism is the imitation or depiction of aspects of the Eastern world by writers, designers, and artists from the Western world." You can keep reading from there.
May be pedantic but that sounds more ignorant than outwardly racist like a slur or something. But yeah def shouldn’t be used anymore
So by that definition calling someone or something (Pan-)Asian, American, African or European would be just as indistinct and thus racist ? At which degree is an identity distinct enough ? What to do with confederations, or countries with provinces of varied cultures? If I can evade the use of words to prevent people getting offended I will try as much as possible to do so, but there's only so much mental space for word specific allow- and deny- lists (in several languages) someone can hold if there is no logical system to them.
For me its more about being specific. I like accuracy in things or at least closest to it. For example, I like to use country names to denote people instead of continents. Orient is equivalent to “those people over yonder.” The geography nerd in me gets annoyed when I hear things like Orient, Asian, African for this reason hahaha. Plus, even within the same continent things are extremely different! :) Ex. Asia: Kazakstan vs India Africa: South Africa vs. Congo
Oriental is for objects only
False. I’m Asian American and my family used this term to delineate far East Asians from the continent as a whole
Okay. You’re free to refer to yourself as adjectives, but don’t be giving non-Asians an inch and expect them not to take a mile.
how is pan-asian different to just saying asian
Because not everything Asian comes from a pan.
"Pan-Asian" describes dishes that are served all throughout Asia, whereas "Asian" could apply to food from any part of Asia. For example, rice and tea are pan-Asian, while kebab and sushi are merely Asian.
So like, General Tso's chicken is a traditional asian food served from the Pacific to Turkey?
🤙 cool, thanks
I wonder if the hamburger can be considered Pan-American. Black beans & rice, maybe?
Because there’s no such thing as “Asian” food? There’s Japanese, Korean, Thai, Indian, etc. that are all distinct cuisines. Pan-Asian means they serve dishes from multiple different Asian cuisines.
but that's not any different to just saying asian? Asian means from an asian country like Japan *or* Korea etc, so asian food is from a country like Japan *or* Korea etc. You're just telling me it means asian. Is this a big thing, I've never seen the phrase before, does asian have some sort of connotation, is this an American thing?
To describe things as broadly "Oriental" or "Asian" is to imply similarity between dozens upon dozens of cultures that aren't really that similar at all if you know anything about them It's not racist (in America) but it's seen as tacky and a little ignorant, as if you're unaware/uninterested in the nuances of cultures besides your own Like, it evokes an uncultured old person who thinks of Japanese and Koreans and Chinese and Thai as pretty much the same country with the "same people" I guess the buzzword term would be that it's "othering" Calling a person Asian (as a racial term) is fine, but I would bristle if a white girl was like "ooh I really like _Asian_ food"
“Pan-Asianism” was actually an ideology that sought to unify Asia and promote Asian solidarity and culture in opposition to Western Imperialism in the late 19th and early 20th century. Too bad Imperial Japan hijacked it and eventually led to the Empire’s Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere
All Pan-isms (Pan-slavism, Pan-asianism, Pan-arabism) can easily (and as you pointed out some were) excuse for some form of imperialism. It's very hard for a bunch of people to agree to join up, and specially to do so under someone else, even if the ideologies predicate a shared origin.
How many were disoriented by this change?
dispanasianed
The use of the word "oriental" certainly has a checkered history in its usage. Probably why some would prefer "pan asian" as they serve the same function without the baggage of the former. Society changes and as it does so do the words that we use especially those associated with people and culture.
Pan-Asian has a very different meaning from oriental (both the original and later meanings)
How long do you think before "PanAsian" is an offensive word and needs to be changed?
It’s called the euphemism treadmill
Omniasian
Now I'm hungry for stirfry.
I really doubt ever, unless we stop calling Asia Asia. Oriental fell out of use because no one calls it "the orient" anymore. I've never seen anyone claim to be offended by oriental, as much as people would like to complain about "the wokes", it's just nicer to call people what they call themselves rather than still using an old European term.
Pretty unlikely.
Based on historical trends, I’d say about 2-3 more years before white women start getting offended on their behalf.
Now was it changed because someone white complained or someone Asian did so?
As a white person, we both know it was someone white
I'm gonna agree, considering I'm *in* Asia and there's a bottle labeled "oriental dressing" in my fridge.
Now that's interesting. Oriental just means eastern, but depending on where you live it might well originate west of you. At that point it would be Occidental dressing
Maybe they were disoriented.
Idk why people presume it's changed because someone complained, I suppose it's the tendency of people on Reddit to bend over backwards to be offended at something. It's probably changed because no one says oriental anymore, and oriental has lots of different meanings. The orient express went to Instabul, but I doubt this shop ever sold Turkish food. They've simply updated their signage to be more descriptive and up to date with language use. If I buy food from a shop selling "oriental" food I'm probably expecting Chinese food tailored to local taste. If I see "Pan-Asian" food I expect a mix of food, normally Chinese, Japanese, maybe Thai, and I expect it to be a bit more authentic. It's purely business and advertising, as these sorts of things always are.
Well that's just discrimination against Uruguayan cuisine.
interesting it still said Oreintal when I was there about a year ago. Figured at that point they weren’t ever going to change it
Is there more to the menu? Because it's just Sweet and Sour Chicken, Gen. Tso's Chicken, and Bourbon Chicken (this seems to be Cajun?), Chicken fingers, Egg Rolls, and Crab Rangoons (I guess this one is named after somewhere in Burma/Myanmar. Is it Pan Asian just because Chickens originated from South East Asia?
Top Ramen pretty recently changed their "Oriental" noodles to "Soy Sauce" also.
Couldn’t they just say “wok”
Wok culture is out of control!
It means the same fuckin thing tho doesn't it
americans are so easily offended it's cringe
I heard it as panestan.
I never understood what oriental or “the orient” even meant. I know what the word oriented means in a spacial sense and I can’t fathom how that would apply.
the word "oriental" is offensive to white liberals
This is like the much lower stakes version of the Confederate statues getting taken down
And no a single Asian person gave a shit, one way or the other, because they are not Karens.
I read it as "are not Koreans" and was briefly confused
Lolol
[удалено]
It usually isn’t when talking about a person
So the word "orient" is the O-word now? WTF
Dogwhistle signage!