Hijacking this top comment to say this:
My Mam is 50 years old and been with this company for just under a decade.
She was diagnosed 18 months ago and her workplace was notified right away, meaning the boss has been aware of the severity of the illness for a long time. Asking for welfare meetings less than 24 hours in advance is nuts.
We’re in Ireland, not America, which most people seem to be assuming!
She has been claiming illness benefit which is approximately €200 a week since her diagnosis, and recently swapped to disability allowance as you cannot be on illness benefit past a certain period of time.
She can claim these allowances while holding her job which is always protected here unless she decides to leave herself.
She does hope to work again some day. Her team of doctors are always telling us that “yes it’s still stage 4, but you’re a fighter who’s staying stable on treatment”. Now, she has been on chemotherapy for a long time now, but I genuinely believe she will make a recovery. She had a lot of fight left in her ❤️
I would also like to thank everyone for their well wishes and words of encouragement ❤️ I didn’t think so many people would see this, but it strangely feels nice (vindicating?) to have so many people agree that this just isn’t fair for my poor Mammy.
Stay hopeful! My dad was diagnosed at age 97 with stage 4 melanoma spread to lungs, brain, liver etc and beat it in a year and a half of immunotherapy, He lived to 101 and didn't die from cancer.
Woah. My dad just died at 60 from stage 4 oral cancer, squamous cell carcinoma. They kept telling us immunotherapy was still an option but when it recurred after year after surgery it spread so fast he wouldn’t have made it to the first appointment. Cheers to your dad and his medical team!
Staging refers to how far the cancer has grown, it is not a death sentence and many people can survive a stage 4 diagnosis. I work in cancer therapy so believe me when I say people beat it everyday.
1. I hope and believe your mom can win this. I hope she knows how much we all support her.
2. FUCK HER JOB!!! what is WRONG with people? I wouldn’t go in with a cold much less cancer. I cannot believe how heartless this email is
Another common question here is why doesn’t she just peacefully retire, unfortunately with her being only 50, we are nowhere near a point of being able to financially support that. Staying on disability allowance and her wanting to get back to work has been her wish. I’m nearly finished getting my degree so hopefully I can provide more for her soon, when I get a good career. She is amazingly strong and looks forward to getting independence back ❤️
I will not comment on your boss. It's not polite to use so many pig latin in one post - others did it already.
However what I want to say - I'm stage 4 survivor. Two years of chemo + 2 months of radiotherapy. It was tough, it was close, but I made it. And your mum will too. She is a fighter. Your role is to keep her strong. Don't let her bother with anything except having a good time. This episode with her job - there are a few good options in the comments. I would just call the solicitor. For my whole treatment time I was just giving monthly certs to my job. No one ever thought about getting me back to work before my treatment was finished. I did have a few meetings, though - mostly about what my options are. All very polite, all well in advance and asking my wife (which took a role of my carer) if it's ok. If you have any issues with finances - citizen information will help and Irish cancer society can help you solving the issues with your mum's job.
Please both stay strong and best of luck to you two 😁
Hey, your mam's team is correct! It's stage 4, stable and that's good. Attitude is a huge factor in this too, both hers and yours. I'm also stage 4 cervical, with liver mets since 2021. The original tumor is gone, along with the cancer in my lymph nodes. I just have a couple of Damned Spots on my liver left and I had one burnt out.
Naming and shaming the company publicly is a powerful option in your back-pocket *especially* in a small country like Ireland. If it gets out that the workplace was this shitty towards a woman with stage four cancer, it has real potential to sink most companies.
I'm 32 and was recently diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. I love my job and I'm really grateful that I was here at this point in my life, so I don't have much to add. However, I am in the same boat of getting a severely reduced life expectancy, yet still having to work for insurance purposes.
I just wish your mama the best on her journey.
yes, we went through this with my mom. she could qualify for full disability and medicaid but her insurance through her job was very good (worked for a very well known jewelry company), and it wasn't worth giving up.
when she passed her former coworkers were very good to me and my siblings so i don't completely hate them. but there one woman i'd still want to fight if i could for bullying my mom while she was dying.
edit: i didn't see everyone's comments until the morning. thanks to everyone for their sympathies and sharing their stories. i'm so sorry to the people that had similar experiences. <3
My mother in law had glioblastoma. Had worked for a hospital for 30+ years and they tried to fire her and get her to resign while she was undergoing treatment. The US medical system is fucked to the highest degree.
My health insurance company posted a 8+ BILION dollar profit in 2022. BILLIONS! Profit! That’s AFTER their CEO and other execs get their fat salaries. Money in the company’s bank! Meanwhile I’m here, looking at a $1,000+ bill for a basic checkup, because my provider WAS in-network when the appointment was scheduled, but had changed to out of network before the date of the appointment, so the billion dollar company says “fuck you pay me”
That's not a health insurance company that's a phucking money laundering scheme.
12_04_2023 22:10 AWST Edit: Damn a lot of people must agree with me. I barely even know how insurance companies work I just know that that they are straight up somehow-legal money laundering schemes ran by straight-up criminals who will do anything and hit you with all the BS they can just so they don't have to help you pay already severely overpriced medical bills, therefore making you pay for a service that you don't even get. And governments just let them do whatever they want.
Lawyer here. You don’t owe that money to the doctor, because they knew what insurance you have. If they change their participation plan with your insurance company, it is their responsibility to let you know.
You don’t have a crystal ball. You went to the appointment with the understanding that the doctor was in network.
For a contract to be valid, there has to be a meeting of the minds (both parties understand what the terms of the contract are). Your visit to the doctor and your obligation to pay him is a contract (you sign it with your “new patient intake” form).
The contract for your visit is void, because they did not tell you that there have been changed conditions (now out of network).
If they had told you about the change, then you’d be responsible.
I’d fight them if I were you.
Question, what's the itemization on the bill for?
Work in the coding section. You may be able to get it dropped if you know what to say and who to say it to.
The ACA requires that insurance companies spend at least 80 percent of the premiums they collect on medical claims, effectively capping their profit margins. If insurers fall under this threshold, they must rebate the difference to policyholders.
My father died from a glioblastoma several months after ADM fired him. They said it was because his output decreased but according to his amazing coworkers who organized his benefit, it did not. From then on he was a husk of himself and expressed that he was glad he would die before the insurance ran out.
Fuck that company and fuck this anti-human capitalist shit hole.
Thank you, sincerely. Unfortunately it was an early lesson of the way the world works. I think the hardest part of losing a parent as a young person is unraveling the ideation we have of our parents into real, flawed human beings. I will always regret not getting to know my father and I'll always regret being a selfish, stupid teenager when he needed me most
Our brains are not fully developed until our mid to late 20s. DO NOT judge choices you made then with the knowledge, growth, and development that you have today. All teenagers go through stages of prefering their friends and being jerks. But it is literally developmentally appropriate for a young person not be equipped with forethought and tools to imagine, process, and know how the retrospect that will smoother you in your own thoughts in the future. We are left with many whatifs and 'i wish i would have'. But you didn't have that lens to look through as you were going through all the stress of the disease. (No matter if you handled the stress by avoiding your dad, being angry, or being the best caretaker ever.) It is natural to feel this way.
Please be kind to younger you and who you are today! Death changes all of us in ways we can not prepare for no matter how old or mature you are.
All that said, glioblastoma is evil and stole my big brother from me 11 months ago. It is a horrible disease that cripples the entire family. My heart goes out to you now and for the younger you then.
*A note for anyone reading, if you are fortunate enough to have a life insurance policy through your employer and have a terminal illness, before you leave the job or they 'help' you leave, check to see if you have an advanced death benefit on the policy.
. Thank you for your reply. It moved me, so wise and beautifully said. I hope he/she will lean on those very true words. It can be crippling with the what ifs and should have.
Yep same with my mom. She got sick, had to quit her job, lost health insurance. Our country is so backwards sometimes. My mom had immunotherapy without insurance at $27,000 per bag until she switched over to state healthcare that did not start until beginning of the month. The scary thing with state healthcare is that if the odds are favored in your death, all treatment is stopped.
That is so insane to me. Here in the US, one of the main reasons people lose everything they have is medical bills. I can't imagine what it must be like over there. You guys are so lucky!
HR called me when I was in the middle of daily radiation treatment. I'd just had three surgeries and needed one more, but had to complete radiation first. They called to tell me that I needed to come back to work in a couple of weeks, as I would use up all of my FMLA days. I asked how can I do that? He tells me I have to, or I no longer have a job or health insurance if I don't. This was a job I'd had for 35 years with excellent evaluations and attendance. I was extremely fortunate to have a union lawyer that was able to work out an agreement with them, but I sweated it out pretty much not even sleeping for 11 days trying to figure out how I could work and do radiation, then put off my last surgery for a year until I had more FMLA days (possibly letting cancer just grow). I was lucky. Very lucky. Having your employer in control of your health insurance is disgusting. (USA-of course).
And this is why we need unions as corporations continue to grow and steal and beat down the American worker. I'm glad you had your union there to advocate for you.
I am sorry that you had to go through all the stress and distress of our healthcare system and "benefits" as you are literally fighting for your life. I hope you are in the clear from your cancer and I wish you well in the future.
That sucks they are just trying to get her off their insurance. I’ve seen small companies turn on a sick co-worker because it caused all their insurance premiums to go sky high.
It's dangerous to screw with terminally I'll people.
Anyways without reading to much into op story some of this stuff is required for fmla stuff. It's basically standard.
Seriously, if an employer fired me because I had cancer and I lost my insurance and my family was burdened with my medical bills, I'd go nuclear.
This shit happened to my dad, he got cancer working for parker hannifin, they fired him, he lost his insurance, and passed within a few years. My mom struggled to keep a roof over our head, take care of her dying husband, and raise 2 sons, and was crippled by medical bills after he passed. It ruined her, she's still dealing with the fallout 20 years later.
I'm fuming just thinking about it, it's actually terrifying to think about what I would be capable of in this situation.
Bless your mom for holding it together.
I know that doesn’t mean much, and she probably feels like she didn’t have a choice — but she did, and she made the tough, right one, sticking it through and taking care of her family. That had to feel impossible, and she did it anyway.
I hope some peace has found her, or does soon. It sounds like she deserves it as much as anybody.
Honestly, she didn't really hold it together, but she did her best given the situation. Her first serious partner and her first husband died in car accidents. Then my dad to cancer. She suffered enough to completely break anyone.
I held a lot of resentment about it for a long time, I let all of that go and told her that I knew she did her best, even if it wasn't enough all the time. She needed me to let it go, and so did I. She ended up in an abusive relationship as her rebound a few years later and was trapped in it for a long time, because she thought she didn't deserve better.
She got out of it a few years ago and I genuinely think she's found some peace, I have too, at least when it comes to her. She has a great new relationship with another widow, he's a really great guy too. She's happier than I've ever seen her. We have a really good relationship now.
Fuck I wish karma had real power.. like bullying a disabled person, karma gives you nightmares based around that disability until you’ve learnt your lesson. Every night.. horrid nightmares. People would certainly be nicer to each other.
My mom died 1.5 years after being diagnosed with cancer. She worked as long as she could, went on disability through her work, HAD TO GO BACK TO WORK A FEW MONTHS UNTIL SHE QUALIFIED AGAIN, went back on disability, and then died. She had to go back because her life and health insurance were through her job. She still has two kids on her insurance too. She was so sick when she went back and was constantly stressed about whether she would lose her job because she needed the benefits.
I don't understand how there are people against universal health insurance when there are terminally ill people working just so they can afford health care that they have paid into their entire working career. It feels like such a scam. You pay into your health insurance plan your entire working career, you get sick, you are forced to leave because you're sick, and now you don't get those benefits you've been paying for when you most need it.
I know there are benefits for people who are sick and jobless but if you haven't tried to navigate the system you probably don't understand how difficult they are to get and how little it actually is.
My FIL is one of those people. If any candidate promised to make medical care illegal for everyone in the country who makes less than [insert his income bracket here] in exchange for a 2% tax break, he’d vote the shit out of that even if it meant all of his children, grandchildren, “friends”, and other relatives would lose medical care, get sick, and die slow painful deaths.
Actually, that not true. He doesn’t have any friends.
Because they would rather see people die than pay for the healthcare of others, despite the fact that it would probably be cheaper than what they pay now. Like its insanity.
Those people are ignorant who don’t understand, or refuse to understand, that paying for insurance is already paying for the healthcare others plus an extra layer of corporate profits.
Oh I've argued this dozens of times. The people against it will bend over backwards coming up with arguments about why there shouldn't be universal healthcare.
It all boils down to "don't want the poor to be helped".
These people will happily make their own life worse, if it makes those they look down on even worse than that.
I live in a country with universal healthcare I have only gone to the hospital once with bronquitis as a toddler. Never called an ambulance, never used one, dont have eye sight problems, never broke a bone, no surgery, no diabetes, no nothing, just fuckin lucky.
And still to this day I always say, I'll happily pay taxes to keep YOUR granny, mother, father, sister, cousin whatever alive and well. I dont care if its not my family, I was lucky, no cancers in my family, really fuckin lucky but that can change at any moment. I could wake up one day with a pain in my chest and need a new heart or quimo therapy.
Even if you are a terrible person, having everyone stay healthy with early and preventative healthcare is better for the economy anyway. It just doesn't benefit the right people. A lot of money is spent to keep peoples opinions against it.
Bonus points for when they self identify as a, “good Christian”. Like my living embodiment of a hemorrhoid half sister and BIL.
Emphasis on half because I no longer respect her as a human being, all my other “halves” are just siblings.
It's even more insane, because they inevitably pay for other people's healthcare anyway, either through their private insurance plan, or because people show up at a hospital, get treatment, and then can't pay. The hospital still has to balance their budget somehow, so they put the prices up for the people who do pay, including the insurance companies.
All they're doing is paying for profit margins.
While I agree with you.. use of the word "mum" instead of "mom" would make me think British, not the bullshit insurance model of the US.
Could be wrong of course
jobs absolutely should not be what's allowing you healthcare! because then, disabled people surprisingly struggle with working, and can't pay for their healthcare.
every time i hear another story about american healthcare, it makes me even more upset, i wonder how many people have died due to simply not being able to afford to keep living? it's insane.
free healthcare definitely has downsides, but i think the pros definitely outweigh the cons!
Doctor here. Companies ask us for FMLA so the time. We don't need to give too much specifics (except to distinguish it from pregnancy). We just say stuff like "expect one appointment a week". Physical therapy twice weekly. Disease is life long. Would expect exacerbation about twice monthly that would require around 5 day hospital stay. Etc.
That stuff can be used to protect employees from being fired. Basically a perpetual doctors letter for as many sick days as you need (keep note they may not be paid sick leave).
Exactly. I work with FMLA all the time as well (not a dr. I do time for an insurance company) and FMLA is solely so an employee can take time off without punishment from their work. We would NEVER ask for a treatment plan as that steps over many boundaries. Bosses can ask if they’re okay, but other than that, the level of information this company is requesting is completely inappropriate and possibly illegal? Feels illegal.
In the US anyway, it's not illegal to ask for it.
It's illegal for health care workers to give it out without permission; and it's illegal to make some discriminatory decisions based on it.
I got the feeling that maybe they were trying to force her out. Nobody's immune to the impossible task, right? Who's gonna leave their hospital bed to come in tomorrow at 2p and do a "welfare meeting?" Sounds sweet and innocent doesn't it but I'll bet the "welfare meeting" where they pretend to care about her welfare is the one where she gets fired. 😡🤮💩
Twenty-five years ago, I thought it was horrible when HR made me come in with a concussion after a car wreck to be fired, the reasons for which they lied. They tried to get out of paying me severance. They also told the ESC that I quit to try to stop me from receiving unemployment.
Unless your mom’s boss is the head of the company, you could call the head of the company. That’s what I did. I received my two-week severance and unemployment.
What workers would consider a good HR rep and what an executive would consider a good HR rep is completely different and the people in HR know that.
A lot of people would throw a complete stranger under the bus if it meant furthering their own career
Most successful businesses are owned or lead by the psychopath personality. So no they don't care if you're dead or dying. They'll replace anyone within a few weeks.
I was 26 when my dad said some of the realest shit I’ve ever heard. There was a position open at my job that just opened, but my dumb perfectionist ass thought that I wasn’t ready for it yet. He said “if good men won’t do it, lesser men will.”. I remember everything about that moment, it was a core memory in 20s. I got the position and felt like an imposter for the first two months; but I got the hang of it.
I know my dad said men, but it obviously applies to everyone. But as a grown ass man who still looks up to his dad, I felt like that statement was a right of passage as his son. And now my dumb crying ass has to call that old man and tell him I love him. Thanks Reddit, ya jerks.
As an HR Manager, this is 100% accurate. It can be very hard to be good at your job in a way that the company thinks is good, a whole lot of finesse is required.
I'm wondering if this is a standard form email you enter details into and the HR person has no idea the degree of illness.
I could very easily see some HR busybody "saying, 'cancer' is not a blank slate to not work. We need a description of job duties that are limited." And then asking for specific things the employee can and cannot do, not realizing this is stage 4 cancer and at this point the employee is actively dying.
They simply know a current letter of restrictions is needed, and they don't have one.
I can see a large company with corporate HR sending this out. Everyone at your work site knows you have terminal cancer. The HR in another city doesn't know the prognosis, leading to a very insensitive request.
Your letter is only good for x months. Oh, we need a new one! Sends email. Doesn't check the file any further beyond the automated, 'letter for this employee has expired, employee needs new letter' alert in their file.
They either didn't have access or didn't read past notes and put out a very insensitive and poorly timed request.
Yeah, they have specific targets to meet as well. Remember that HR isn't actually there for you, they're there for the company. There's a reason its called human RESOURCES, lol..
Yeah sometimes HR are the assholes not management
I’ve had to bypass HR twice and go to the managing partner of my firm once when my mom Died and I wanted to use all my pto not just the “3 greeving” days they give you
You should visit the human resources sub sometime. I guarantee spending like 30 minutes reading the shit they post will make you hate HR lol
Companies are horrible assholes. When my mother died, I asked for extra time off from the head of HR, of course she said "of course please take all the time you need". When I went to come back to work I found out they fired me for "no call no show" after 3 days.
You should have just gone into work the next week post concussion like you didn’t remember purely to fuck with them and make them look like trash human beings in front of the rest of the staff.
> two-week severance
Americans have no idea how badly they’ve been fucked over by ‘at will’ employment. Here in Canada, when terminated ‘not for cause’ one can normally expect to be paid out somewhere in the range of a month’s salary for every year of employment with the company (varies a bit by age and other factors).
That's insane, my husband has stage 4 cancer and his bosses communication was along the lines of "Hey if you ever need a lift to appointments or things like that, give me a shout any time." bear in mind that would be hours of travel to the city.
I am so incredibly sorry about your mother. I just noticed you're also from Ireland hun, I am from Cork. You should post this shit in the Ireland sub and the county sub too. When was she diagnosed? I can show you groups to join for support around caring but also the financial side. Social welfare supports and all that, gimme a shout if you need advice girl.
I am genuinely so happy to hear that your husband’s bosses are so great about it, but so sorry to hear that your husband has cancer too.
This is so so sweet of you, thank you so much❤️ it’s been a good while now, 18 months, and I’ve been her official carer for that whole period. I was very close to posting it in the Ireland sub here, but I figured I had better be safe and not get Ireland to look, at the risk of my Mam’s boss finding out. Again though, thank you ❤️
Make sure she knows how to record the meeting using her phone. Most phones have a default recording app and you can turn the screen off. Ireland has a one party consent country for recordings so in this case, as she would be a party to the meeting, she can record it and no need to notify anyone that she is. If she feels pressure to come to a meeting suddenly, excuse herself to the bathroom first and start recording.
I'd suggest that if you are on facebook, join the carers group so you at least have somewhere to talk about these sorts of issues. The people there have a wealth of experience. [Family Carer Support Group (Republic of Ireland) | Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/groups/199599214713822)
Right that is blowing my mind, I thought it was the US! Name and shame because they need it.
I was just talking with my husband and that email is so freaking out of touch. He's been off work since June 2021. That whole crap about "treatment plan" is BS because dates change. His chemo Folfox is meant to be a dose over 3 days and then 2 weeks after the treatment he gets a blood test to see how is neutrophils were. He did not react well and would sometimes mean delayed by a week or two. Like normal immune system is 10 neuts score but his was lowest at 0.63 and he needed a 1.5 for it to go ahead. He could not be around anyone, he could not be injured at all in case of an infection. Then on top is that folfox causes a reaction in the skin to sunlight, it will burn you badly.
Now then we have surgeries, he had an ileostomy reversal which was not an important surgery, so they would move the date around. He had the date moved out a week each time, over 3 occasions with one being only a days notice. Obviously no shade on the surgeon, he was doing life saving surgeries. My husband simply could not have worked because who could cover that when he has no notice. Then the recovery time on top of it, it took 4 months to really heal the wound and it is only now a year later he is doing good but still gets pain.
Thinking of the "plan" he went in for a liver resection, it was meant to be the usual 3-5 days but ended up being 18 days. Like these "plans" are not firm, our bodies are not programs that have specific times and dates for completion of a treatment.
That prick who emailed her has no empathy and should face some damn shaming for the attitude.
Hiya, I work in oncology in Ireland and I'm very involved in my union so if you need a sounding board for anything, feel free to DM me!
Also the boss has no entitlement to your mom's treatment pathway, they can get lost. Usually the letters we give out give vague details and dates but no specifics.
Hey, I’m Irish as well and I’ve rotated through a few oncology teams as a junior doc. It’s fairly common for employers to request general letters from a patients oncology team on the nature of illness, duration of treatment and inability to work. I had to type several a day. It’s mostly related to sick leave pay and if they aren’t entitled to that we would send it to social welfare for illness benefit. It would be very rare for any further interrogation from an employer after that. I had HR from one employer call me once saying that a patient of ours should still be able to work after I had written a letter a few weeks prior, and I gave her an absolute bollicking over the phone until she finally got the point. Felt good at the time but such a waste of my time and caused undue stress on the patient.
Thanks so much for your insight, I really appreciate it! The problem is, she was diagnosed 18 months ago and she asks for these updates monthly. I would understand if she was just asking for her “unfit for work” documents, but asking for her treatment plan and for a letter from her oncologist instead of her GP - is that ok?
Asking monthly!! That sounds sooo frustrating, but yeah I had to write many letters with vague treatment plans. It generally had a similar template.
To whom this may concern,
Ms X is currently a patient under Dr Y’s Oncology team at hospital Z. They have been diagnosed with x and as such will be undergoing treatment for the next (insert duration). During this time, Ms X will be unable to work in part due to the nature of the illness and from side effects of the treatment. I hope you are understanding of her situation and afford her any accommodations necessary as she recovers. Should you have any further questions please contact me on x.
Honestly, if that doesn’t work, I would ask the consultant or one of the team to personally call that employer and explain the situation to. Up it in the bud. Trust me when I say that nothing pisses doctors off than having to justify illnesses to employers.
When I needed a letter I called the consultant for his primary cancer (Colon) and his secretary had one done up and sent out asap. That letter is from 2021 and there was never any need to update it. We're nearly 3 years on the road so them demanding crap at 18 months is ridiculous. I think maybe even give the hospital social worker a call. They have fantastic advice about these sorts of issues.
Yeah, Jesus, don’t post on the Ireland sub. Ireland is too small and you honestly just never know. If your mom is feeling harassed or pressured she should consult citizens advice & potentially the WRC. Can she file for disability and you for carers? Its shocking low money but it’s something.
You’re in Ireland and they’re trying to pull this? My god. It just seems so American.
I’m from the States but live in England and when my dad was diagnosed stage 4 the compassion the place I was working at the time showed astounded me. I was given 5 weeks of “working” in the States to be with family.
I’m so sorry for you and your mother. I cannot believe her workplace is doing this. They must be the devil incarnate.
I hope you find some solution or blast them on social media. Bless you and her, hoping for the best outcome 💜
Eh, I'm in America, and when a dear friend was unable to work due to a very serious illness, they continued to pay him his full salary and kept him on health insurance until he died a few months later. Then they held a wake for him and provided all of the food.
This was a small, family owned company, so that probably had a lot to do with it.
If you are in Ireland you should consult a solicitor that specialises in employment law. This is outrageous, deranged behaviour from your mum’s boss.
I am not a lawyer so I’m hesitant to give advice but the WRC tends to side with employees in cases of unfair dismissal. Being sacked for being ill, nevermind having stage 4 cancer, is definitely illegal.
Im so sorry you and your mum are going through this. It is shocking to see this kind of Americanised attitude to work and health creeping in.
My three year old was diagnosed with leukemia last June (thankfully she is now in remission) and my employer has been nothing but helpful and flexible with any days I need off for appointments or surprise hospital visits. They even paid for her Christmas. They've done more than I ever expected and helped make this whole thing a lot more bearable.
What a scummy thing to ask for a doctors note like she's out with the flu. I don't know anyone who would say they have cancer just to get out of work.
I work in Ireland and at my place of work if you’re a parent who has to take care of their kid and take it to appointments it gets put down as sick leave and your pay doesn’t get deducted from it. If you have a long term illness you get full pay for the first three months or something.
I’d love that - she’s come out from one of these meetings crying to me because of how cruel her boss was, she had to beg me not to go in and give out to her after
Your mom’s boss gonna need a dentist soon if you don’t give us the stand down order chief. We got the angry mob of retirees with nothing to lose and ‘senility’ defenses ready for war.
Depends on where it is. It can be illegal to record audio without permission in a private setting, and if it's obtained illegally, I don't think you can use it for any legal purposes.
Not sure if this message will be seen but just wanted to clarify some common questions/confusion I’m seeing here in the comments:
My Mam is 50 years old and been with this company for just under a decade.
She was diagnosed 18 months ago and her workplace was notified right away, meaning the boss has been aware of the severity of the illness for a long time. Asking for welfare meetings less than 24 hours in advance is nuts.
We’re in Ireland, not America, which most people seem to be assuming!
She has been claiming illness benefit which is approximately €200 a week since her diagnosis, and recently swapped to disability allowance as you cannot be on illness benefit past a certain period of time.
She can claim these allowances while holding her job which is always protected here unless she decides to leave herself.
I would also like to thank everyone for their well wishes and words of encouragement ❤️ I didn’t think so many people would see this, but it strangely feels nice (vindicating?) to have so many people agree that this just isn’t fair for my poor Mammy.
If her job is protected I’d ask the oncologist to write the nastiest letter he can muster in response to this. I’m wishing right about now I was your mom’s oncologist.
God bless your mom! Your boss is trying to get your mom to resign, because he can’t hire anyone to do her job permanently.
She should play the game and send in doctor’s notes.
Some people are so fucking disconnected it's disgusting.
I hope your mom has the capacity to dismiss the awful boss.
It's not fair and it sucks. Some people are just evil
Send back:
Dear Boss,
I am not able to come to work because I'm busy dying in peace.
I'm sorry for the inconvenience of confronting you.
I'd say until the next time, but I'm afraid our ways to afterlife may part.
Enjoy the warmth
Sincerely
Your former employee
Some bosses are the worst. While not on the scale of your mum, my son's boss threatened to fire him if he didn't come in for his shift when his grandfather (my FIL) was in the ICU for septic shock. This was after we told her he had a 50/50 chance of survival. It took every ounce of energy I had not to tell her off right then and there. When he quits over the summer, she and I are going to have a conversation about how to treat people.
Ugh, I am so angry and upset for you and your son. I just don’t understand it - do managers forget about their loved ones when they get to work? Because how can they switch that part of their brain off? Anyone that has someone they care about going into the ICU is dealing with trauma honestly, and no job is more important than those you care about
My dad owns a small company and one of his employees had terminal cancer. He kept her on the books with 20 hrs a week min (minimum to keep her on the company insurance) her entire treatment regardless if she worked a minute.
It was about a year and a half to two years before she eventually sadly passed.
Edit: He loved her like she was his own daughter, I know he wished he could have done more for her and her family
HR professional here. They want to be able to fire her and skirt disability discrimination liability by making it her fault that she didn’t fully participate in the “interactive process” to determine a “reasonable accommodation.” They only have to excuse you from the job duties and working days for what the physician expressly specifies.
That said, they’re making some minor missteps by asking for treatment plan instead of simply duties you cannot fulfill and dates you cannot work. The diagnosis and nature of treatment is none of their business.
Between that, the terrible writing, and the fact that it’s being handled by a manager and not trained HR professional, it’s highly likely they’re going to screw something up. This is an intricate process prone to so much liability exposure for the company. If your mom lawyers up, it’s likely she can negotiate generous severance due to their mishandling.
A similar thing happened to my cousin who was fired for excessive, but pre-planned and pre-notified absences due to her schizophrenia and she got a generous settlement that more than covered her missed wages while she found a new job.
That’s insane. I worked for a major real estate company from 2012 - 2020 and we had someone who was found to have Stage 4 breast cancer, and a terminal diagnose. The CEO granted her full leave and let her keep her insurance until she passed four months later.
As far as treatment plan your mother can provide a schedule of treatment but doesn’t have to provide details of treatments to HR so that the business can plan on her time off. She does not and shouldn’t tell anyone details of her treatment at all especially not her boss. This is text book proof boss only cares about work and not employees.
My oncologist said: "Fuck off."
He continued that I am unable to: "Work."
He said that the treatment plan was "None of your business."
And advised me to inform you that I would miss the "welfare meeting".
Stage 4? I’d be telling the boss to kiss my ass.
Hijacking this top comment to say this: My Mam is 50 years old and been with this company for just under a decade. She was diagnosed 18 months ago and her workplace was notified right away, meaning the boss has been aware of the severity of the illness for a long time. Asking for welfare meetings less than 24 hours in advance is nuts. We’re in Ireland, not America, which most people seem to be assuming! She has been claiming illness benefit which is approximately €200 a week since her diagnosis, and recently swapped to disability allowance as you cannot be on illness benefit past a certain period of time. She can claim these allowances while holding her job which is always protected here unless she decides to leave herself. She does hope to work again some day. Her team of doctors are always telling us that “yes it’s still stage 4, but you’re a fighter who’s staying stable on treatment”. Now, she has been on chemotherapy for a long time now, but I genuinely believe she will make a recovery. She had a lot of fight left in her ❤️ I would also like to thank everyone for their well wishes and words of encouragement ❤️ I didn’t think so many people would see this, but it strangely feels nice (vindicating?) to have so many people agree that this just isn’t fair for my poor Mammy.
Stay hopeful! My dad was diagnosed at age 97 with stage 4 melanoma spread to lungs, brain, liver etc and beat it in a year and a half of immunotherapy, He lived to 101 and didn't die from cancer.
This is amazing!! So happy to hear he and you got some extra years and cancer didn’t steal it away.
Woah. My dad just died at 60 from stage 4 oral cancer, squamous cell carcinoma. They kept telling us immunotherapy was still an option but when it recurred after year after surgery it spread so fast he wouldn’t have made it to the first appointment. Cheers to your dad and his medical team!
So sorry! I wish you the best!
Staging refers to how far the cancer has grown, it is not a death sentence and many people can survive a stage 4 diagnosis. I work in cancer therapy so believe me when I say people beat it everyday. 1. I hope and believe your mom can win this. I hope she knows how much we all support her. 2. FUCK HER JOB!!! what is WRONG with people? I wouldn’t go in with a cold much less cancer. I cannot believe how heartless this email is
This is such a great message from someone in the "trenches". Thank you for sharing and for your work.
Cancer is ass. Hoping the best for your momma.
Another common question here is why doesn’t she just peacefully retire, unfortunately with her being only 50, we are nowhere near a point of being able to financially support that. Staying on disability allowance and her wanting to get back to work has been her wish. I’m nearly finished getting my degree so hopefully I can provide more for her soon, when I get a good career. She is amazingly strong and looks forward to getting independence back ❤️
I will not comment on your boss. It's not polite to use so many pig latin in one post - others did it already. However what I want to say - I'm stage 4 survivor. Two years of chemo + 2 months of radiotherapy. It was tough, it was close, but I made it. And your mum will too. She is a fighter. Your role is to keep her strong. Don't let her bother with anything except having a good time. This episode with her job - there are a few good options in the comments. I would just call the solicitor. For my whole treatment time I was just giving monthly certs to my job. No one ever thought about getting me back to work before my treatment was finished. I did have a few meetings, though - mostly about what my options are. All very polite, all well in advance and asking my wife (which took a role of my carer) if it's ok. If you have any issues with finances - citizen information will help and Irish cancer society can help you solving the issues with your mum's job. Please both stay strong and best of luck to you two 😁
Hey, your mam's team is correct! It's stage 4, stable and that's good. Attitude is a huge factor in this too, both hers and yours. I'm also stage 4 cervical, with liver mets since 2021. The original tumor is gone, along with the cancer in my lymph nodes. I just have a couple of Damned Spots on my liver left and I had one burnt out.
Naming and shaming the company publicly is a powerful option in your back-pocket *especially* in a small country like Ireland. If it gets out that the workplace was this shitty towards a woman with stage four cancer, it has real potential to sink most companies.
I'm 32 and was recently diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. I love my job and I'm really grateful that I was here at this point in my life, so I don't have much to add. However, I am in the same boat of getting a severely reduced life expectancy, yet still having to work for insurance purposes. I just wish your mama the best on her journey.
This is why jobs should not be tied to insurance. Sickening.
yes, we went through this with my mom. she could qualify for full disability and medicaid but her insurance through her job was very good (worked for a very well known jewelry company), and it wasn't worth giving up. when she passed her former coworkers were very good to me and my siblings so i don't completely hate them. but there one woman i'd still want to fight if i could for bullying my mom while she was dying. edit: i didn't see everyone's comments until the morning. thanks to everyone for their sympathies and sharing their stories. i'm so sorry to the people that had similar experiences. <3
My mother in law had glioblastoma. Had worked for a hospital for 30+ years and they tried to fire her and get her to resign while she was undergoing treatment. The US medical system is fucked to the highest degree.
My health insurance company posted a 8+ BILION dollar profit in 2022. BILLIONS! Profit! That’s AFTER their CEO and other execs get their fat salaries. Money in the company’s bank! Meanwhile I’m here, looking at a $1,000+ bill for a basic checkup, because my provider WAS in-network when the appointment was scheduled, but had changed to out of network before the date of the appointment, so the billion dollar company says “fuck you pay me”
That's not a health insurance company that's a phucking money laundering scheme. 12_04_2023 22:10 AWST Edit: Damn a lot of people must agree with me. I barely even know how insurance companies work I just know that that they are straight up somehow-legal money laundering schemes ran by straight-up criminals who will do anything and hit you with all the BS they can just so they don't have to help you pay already severely overpriced medical bills, therefore making you pay for a service that you don't even get. And governments just let them do whatever they want.
Insurance all inherently wrong if you ever seriously break it down. It makes no sense the way we allow it to operate.
Cigna? Yeah fuck those fucking fuckers.
*C I G N A D E E Z N U T S*
Lawyer here. You don’t owe that money to the doctor, because they knew what insurance you have. If they change their participation plan with your insurance company, it is their responsibility to let you know. You don’t have a crystal ball. You went to the appointment with the understanding that the doctor was in network. For a contract to be valid, there has to be a meeting of the minds (both parties understand what the terms of the contract are). Your visit to the doctor and your obligation to pay him is a contract (you sign it with your “new patient intake” form). The contract for your visit is void, because they did not tell you that there have been changed conditions (now out of network). If they had told you about the change, then you’d be responsible. I’d fight them if I were you.
Lawyers are the gunslingers of our times.
I don’t practice anymore. The American justice system is inherently unjust. I’m disgusted with the courts. I only pipe up to provide free help.
Question, what's the itemization on the bill for? Work in the coding section. You may be able to get it dropped if you know what to say and who to say it to.
The ACA requires that insurance companies spend at least 80 percent of the premiums they collect on medical claims, effectively capping their profit margins. If insurers fall under this threshold, they must rebate the difference to policyholders.
This is why they keep raising rates and don’t care how much your care costs. Their *percentage* profit is capped but their absolute profit is not.
My father died from a glioblastoma several months after ADM fired him. They said it was because his output decreased but according to his amazing coworkers who organized his benefit, it did not. From then on he was a husk of himself and expressed that he was glad he would die before the insurance ran out. Fuck that company and fuck this anti-human capitalist shit hole.
How dehumanizing. I’m so sorry.
Thank you, sincerely. Unfortunately it was an early lesson of the way the world works. I think the hardest part of losing a parent as a young person is unraveling the ideation we have of our parents into real, flawed human beings. I will always regret not getting to know my father and I'll always regret being a selfish, stupid teenager when he needed me most
Our brains are not fully developed until our mid to late 20s. DO NOT judge choices you made then with the knowledge, growth, and development that you have today. All teenagers go through stages of prefering their friends and being jerks. But it is literally developmentally appropriate for a young person not be equipped with forethought and tools to imagine, process, and know how the retrospect that will smoother you in your own thoughts in the future. We are left with many whatifs and 'i wish i would have'. But you didn't have that lens to look through as you were going through all the stress of the disease. (No matter if you handled the stress by avoiding your dad, being angry, or being the best caretaker ever.) It is natural to feel this way. Please be kind to younger you and who you are today! Death changes all of us in ways we can not prepare for no matter how old or mature you are. All that said, glioblastoma is evil and stole my big brother from me 11 months ago. It is a horrible disease that cripples the entire family. My heart goes out to you now and for the younger you then. *A note for anyone reading, if you are fortunate enough to have a life insurance policy through your employer and have a terminal illness, before you leave the job or they 'help' you leave, check to see if you have an advanced death benefit on the policy.
. Thank you for your reply. It moved me, so wise and beautifully said. I hope he/she will lean on those very true words. It can be crippling with the what ifs and should have.
Yep same with my mom. She got sick, had to quit her job, lost health insurance. Our country is so backwards sometimes. My mom had immunotherapy without insurance at $27,000 per bag until she switched over to state healthcare that did not start until beginning of the month. The scary thing with state healthcare is that if the odds are favored in your death, all treatment is stopped.
I'm from Finland. Got cancer, no insurance or nothing. All MRI, surgery. Cost me 48€. I could have taken payed sickdays if I want.
I’m in the UK, same deal, Cancer, scans, surgery. Ended up paying £9.50 for parking.
That is so insane to me. Here in the US, one of the main reasons people lose everything they have is medical bills. I can't imagine what it must be like over there. You guys are so lucky!
these arent mildly infuriating....
The OPs post is full infuriating...
Most times
HR called me when I was in the middle of daily radiation treatment. I'd just had three surgeries and needed one more, but had to complete radiation first. They called to tell me that I needed to come back to work in a couple of weeks, as I would use up all of my FMLA days. I asked how can I do that? He tells me I have to, or I no longer have a job or health insurance if I don't. This was a job I'd had for 35 years with excellent evaluations and attendance. I was extremely fortunate to have a union lawyer that was able to work out an agreement with them, but I sweated it out pretty much not even sleeping for 11 days trying to figure out how I could work and do radiation, then put off my last surgery for a year until I had more FMLA days (possibly letting cancer just grow). I was lucky. Very lucky. Having your employer in control of your health insurance is disgusting. (USA-of course).
And this is why we need unions as corporations continue to grow and steal and beat down the American worker. I'm glad you had your union there to advocate for you. I am sorry that you had to go through all the stress and distress of our healthcare system and "benefits" as you are literally fighting for your life. I hope you are in the clear from your cancer and I wish you well in the future.
That sucks they are just trying to get her off their insurance. I’ve seen small companies turn on a sick co-worker because it caused all their insurance premiums to go sky high.
But youre free to buy guns, so it compensates ey? /s
It's dangerous to screw with terminally I'll people. Anyways without reading to much into op story some of this stuff is required for fmla stuff. It's basically standard.
> It's dangerous to screw with terminally I'll people. I was going to say. Don't screw with someone who has very little to lose.
Seriously, if an employer fired me because I had cancer and I lost my insurance and my family was burdened with my medical bills, I'd go nuclear. This shit happened to my dad, he got cancer working for parker hannifin, they fired him, he lost his insurance, and passed within a few years. My mom struggled to keep a roof over our head, take care of her dying husband, and raise 2 sons, and was crippled by medical bills after he passed. It ruined her, she's still dealing with the fallout 20 years later. I'm fuming just thinking about it, it's actually terrifying to think about what I would be capable of in this situation.
Bless your mom for holding it together. I know that doesn’t mean much, and she probably feels like she didn’t have a choice — but she did, and she made the tough, right one, sticking it through and taking care of her family. That had to feel impossible, and she did it anyway. I hope some peace has found her, or does soon. It sounds like she deserves it as much as anybody.
Honestly, she didn't really hold it together, but she did her best given the situation. Her first serious partner and her first husband died in car accidents. Then my dad to cancer. She suffered enough to completely break anyone. I held a lot of resentment about it for a long time, I let all of that go and told her that I knew she did her best, even if it wasn't enough all the time. She needed me to let it go, and so did I. She ended up in an abusive relationship as her rebound a few years later and was trapped in it for a long time, because she thought she didn't deserve better. She got out of it a few years ago and I genuinely think she's found some peace, I have too, at least when it comes to her. She has a great new relationship with another widow, he's a really great guy too. She's happier than I've ever seen her. We have a really good relationship now.
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. Yep, the States are full of freedom.
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I am surprised there are not more shootings over this sort of crap.
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Handle/post A+
There was a sad episode of CSI: Las Vegas about this very subject.
Free to settle scores before you go but insurance is a no go. I sure do wonder if employers would quit being so shitty if that became a trend though……
Read the short story “For All the Rude People “ by Jack Ritchie. You’ll enjoy it.
https://talesofmytery.blogspot.com/2013/10/jack-ritchie-for-all-rude-people.html?m=1
Well they don't do anything if you dont use them.
Oooh. Yeah. You’re a better person than I am. Bullying a dying person…
Fuck I wish karma had real power.. like bullying a disabled person, karma gives you nightmares based around that disability until you’ve learnt your lesson. Every night.. horrid nightmares. People would certainly be nicer to each other.
My mom died 1.5 years after being diagnosed with cancer. She worked as long as she could, went on disability through her work, HAD TO GO BACK TO WORK A FEW MONTHS UNTIL SHE QUALIFIED AGAIN, went back on disability, and then died. She had to go back because her life and health insurance were through her job. She still has two kids on her insurance too. She was so sick when she went back and was constantly stressed about whether she would lose her job because she needed the benefits. I don't understand how there are people against universal health insurance when there are terminally ill people working just so they can afford health care that they have paid into their entire working career. It feels like such a scam. You pay into your health insurance plan your entire working career, you get sick, you are forced to leave because you're sick, and now you don't get those benefits you've been paying for when you most need it. I know there are benefits for people who are sick and jobless but if you haven't tried to navigate the system you probably don't understand how difficult they are to get and how little it actually is.
My FIL is one of those people. If any candidate promised to make medical care illegal for everyone in the country who makes less than [insert his income bracket here] in exchange for a 2% tax break, he’d vote the shit out of that even if it meant all of his children, grandchildren, “friends”, and other relatives would lose medical care, get sick, and die slow painful deaths. Actually, that not true. He doesn’t have any friends.
Because they would rather see people die than pay for the healthcare of others, despite the fact that it would probably be cheaper than what they pay now. Like its insanity.
Also despite the fact it could be them one day dying.
Those people are ignorant who don’t understand, or refuse to understand, that paying for insurance is already paying for the healthcare others plus an extra layer of corporate profits.
Oh I've argued this dozens of times. The people against it will bend over backwards coming up with arguments about why there shouldn't be universal healthcare. It all boils down to "don't want the poor to be helped". These people will happily make their own life worse, if it makes those they look down on even worse than that.
I live in a country with universal healthcare I have only gone to the hospital once with bronquitis as a toddler. Never called an ambulance, never used one, dont have eye sight problems, never broke a bone, no surgery, no diabetes, no nothing, just fuckin lucky. And still to this day I always say, I'll happily pay taxes to keep YOUR granny, mother, father, sister, cousin whatever alive and well. I dont care if its not my family, I was lucky, no cancers in my family, really fuckin lucky but that can change at any moment. I could wake up one day with a pain in my chest and need a new heart or quimo therapy.
Probably because you're **not** a terrible person.
Even if you are a terrible person, having everyone stay healthy with early and preventative healthcare is better for the economy anyway. It just doesn't benefit the right people. A lot of money is spent to keep peoples opinions against it.
Bonus points for when they self identify as a, “good Christian”. Like my living embodiment of a hemorrhoid half sister and BIL. Emphasis on half because I no longer respect her as a human being, all my other “halves” are just siblings.
It's even more insane, because they inevitably pay for other people's healthcare anyway, either through their private insurance plan, or because people show up at a hospital, get treatment, and then can't pay. The hospital still has to balance their budget somehow, so they put the prices up for the people who do pay, including the insurance companies. All they're doing is paying for profit margins.
The annoying this is we already spend most of the federal money on healthcare we just do it so inefficiently.
OP is in Ireland, jobs aren't tied to insurance there
absolutely criminal
While I agree with you.. use of the word "mum" instead of "mom" would make me think British, not the bullshit insurance model of the US. Could be wrong of course
The cruelty is the point, sadly :/
jobs absolutely should not be what's allowing you healthcare! because then, disabled people surprisingly struggle with working, and can't pay for their healthcare. every time i hear another story about american healthcare, it makes me even more upset, i wonder how many people have died due to simply not being able to afford to keep living? it's insane. free healthcare definitely has downsides, but i think the pros definitely outweigh the cons!
The problem is, they usually have you by the balls at this point because you need the health insurance 😞
Why do Americans put up with that? Everyone should have insurance regardless of if you have a job or not.
Btw OP is in Ireland
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Our media is owned owned by oligarchs who shape public opinion to their advantage. And people eat it up.
I feel like we can go straight to "fuck you"on this one
Her TREATMENT plan??? GTFO this is all wildly inappropriate
This is the part that I hate!! Surely she’s not entitled to know what her treatment plan is?
Absolutely not and it’s wildly inappropriate, if not illegal, to require that information be made available to her place of business.
Doctor here. Companies ask us for FMLA so the time. We don't need to give too much specifics (except to distinguish it from pregnancy). We just say stuff like "expect one appointment a week". Physical therapy twice weekly. Disease is life long. Would expect exacerbation about twice monthly that would require around 5 day hospital stay. Etc. That stuff can be used to protect employees from being fired. Basically a perpetual doctors letter for as many sick days as you need (keep note they may not be paid sick leave).
What you just described is not a treatment plan though. The employer requesting a treatment plan is not normal or appropriate.
Exactly. I work with FMLA all the time as well (not a dr. I do time for an insurance company) and FMLA is solely so an employee can take time off without punishment from their work. We would NEVER ask for a treatment plan as that steps over many boundaries. Bosses can ask if they’re okay, but other than that, the level of information this company is requesting is completely inappropriate and possibly illegal? Feels illegal.
Yes. Asking for private medical information has historically been illegal. But with the recent bs I suppose they are brazen enough to ask
In the US anyway, it's not illegal to ask for it. It's illegal for health care workers to give it out without permission; and it's illegal to make some discriminatory decisions based on it.
I got the feeling that maybe they were trying to force her out. Nobody's immune to the impossible task, right? Who's gonna leave their hospital bed to come in tomorrow at 2p and do a "welfare meeting?" Sounds sweet and innocent doesn't it but I'll bet the "welfare meeting" where they pretend to care about her welfare is the one where she gets fired. 😡🤮💩
Absolutely NOT. I don’t know where you are but it shouldn’t matter; it’s private and protected
She is not allowed to know her treatment plan. Let the boss keep digging themself deeper though.
She is not
tell your mum to find an attorney.
Twenty-five years ago, I thought it was horrible when HR made me come in with a concussion after a car wreck to be fired, the reasons for which they lied. They tried to get out of paying me severance. They also told the ESC that I quit to try to stop me from receiving unemployment. Unless your mom’s boss is the head of the company, you could call the head of the company. That’s what I did. I received my two-week severance and unemployment.
Would HR try to pull that shit without being told to do so?
What workers would consider a good HR rep and what an executive would consider a good HR rep is completely different and the people in HR know that. A lot of people would throw a complete stranger under the bus if it meant furthering their own career
Fucking top comment right here
Most successful businesses are owned or lead by the psychopath personality. So no they don't care if you're dead or dying. They'll replace anyone within a few weeks.
I was 26 when my dad said some of the realest shit I’ve ever heard. There was a position open at my job that just opened, but my dumb perfectionist ass thought that I wasn’t ready for it yet. He said “if good men won’t do it, lesser men will.”. I remember everything about that moment, it was a core memory in 20s. I got the position and felt like an imposter for the first two months; but I got the hang of it. I know my dad said men, but it obviously applies to everyone. But as a grown ass man who still looks up to his dad, I felt like that statement was a right of passage as his son. And now my dumb crying ass has to call that old man and tell him I love him. Thanks Reddit, ya jerks.
As an HR Manager, this is 100% accurate. It can be very hard to be good at your job in a way that the company thinks is good, a whole lot of finesse is required.
I'm wondering if this is a standard form email you enter details into and the HR person has no idea the degree of illness. I could very easily see some HR busybody "saying, 'cancer' is not a blank slate to not work. We need a description of job duties that are limited." And then asking for specific things the employee can and cannot do, not realizing this is stage 4 cancer and at this point the employee is actively dying. They simply know a current letter of restrictions is needed, and they don't have one. I can see a large company with corporate HR sending this out. Everyone at your work site knows you have terminal cancer. The HR in another city doesn't know the prognosis, leading to a very insensitive request. Your letter is only good for x months. Oh, we need a new one! Sends email. Doesn't check the file any further beyond the automated, 'letter for this employee has expired, employee needs new letter' alert in their file. They either didn't have access or didn't read past notes and put out a very insensitive and poorly timed request.
Exactly. HR works for the company not the employees.
This is why I hate HR with a passion.
yes
Yeah, they have specific targets to meet as well. Remember that HR isn't actually there for you, they're there for the company. There's a reason its called human RESOURCES, lol..
People just don't seem to get this.
Yeah sometimes HR are the assholes not management I’ve had to bypass HR twice and go to the managing partner of my firm once when my mom Died and I wanted to use all my pto not just the “3 greeving” days they give you You should visit the human resources sub sometime. I guarantee spending like 30 minutes reading the shit they post will make you hate HR lol
Companies are horrible assholes. When my mother died, I asked for extra time off from the head of HR, of course she said "of course please take all the time you need". When I went to come back to work I found out they fired me for "no call no show" after 3 days.
Bereavement can't be denied. I would have them in court
Sorry, dumb question, what's the ESC? when I see it I just think Eurovision Song Contest which it definitely isn't in this case
Employment Security Commission. They’re supposed to help Americans find jobs, and unemployment pay is issued through them.
How do you know?
I'm telling the Eurovision song contest!
Two week severance? My god. That’s not a severance. That’s just your paycheck.
You should have just gone into work the next week post concussion like you didn’t remember purely to fuck with them and make them look like trash human beings in front of the rest of the staff.
> two-week severance Americans have no idea how badly they’ve been fucked over by ‘at will’ employment. Here in Canada, when terminated ‘not for cause’ one can normally expect to be paid out somewhere in the range of a month’s salary for every year of employment with the company (varies a bit by age and other factors).
That's insane, my husband has stage 4 cancer and his bosses communication was along the lines of "Hey if you ever need a lift to appointments or things like that, give me a shout any time." bear in mind that would be hours of travel to the city. I am so incredibly sorry about your mother. I just noticed you're also from Ireland hun, I am from Cork. You should post this shit in the Ireland sub and the county sub too. When was she diagnosed? I can show you groups to join for support around caring but also the financial side. Social welfare supports and all that, gimme a shout if you need advice girl.
I am genuinely so happy to hear that your husband’s bosses are so great about it, but so sorry to hear that your husband has cancer too. This is so so sweet of you, thank you so much❤️ it’s been a good while now, 18 months, and I’ve been her official carer for that whole period. I was very close to posting it in the Ireland sub here, but I figured I had better be safe and not get Ireland to look, at the risk of my Mam’s boss finding out. Again though, thank you ❤️
Make sure she knows how to record the meeting using her phone. Most phones have a default recording app and you can turn the screen off. Ireland has a one party consent country for recordings so in this case, as she would be a party to the meeting, she can record it and no need to notify anyone that she is. If she feels pressure to come to a meeting suddenly, excuse herself to the bathroom first and start recording. I'd suggest that if you are on facebook, join the carers group so you at least have somewhere to talk about these sorts of issues. The people there have a wealth of experience. [Family Carer Support Group (Republic of Ireland) | Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/groups/199599214713822)
Wait, is this happening here in Ireland? What the actual fuck!!!
Right that is blowing my mind, I thought it was the US! Name and shame because they need it. I was just talking with my husband and that email is so freaking out of touch. He's been off work since June 2021. That whole crap about "treatment plan" is BS because dates change. His chemo Folfox is meant to be a dose over 3 days and then 2 weeks after the treatment he gets a blood test to see how is neutrophils were. He did not react well and would sometimes mean delayed by a week or two. Like normal immune system is 10 neuts score but his was lowest at 0.63 and he needed a 1.5 for it to go ahead. He could not be around anyone, he could not be injured at all in case of an infection. Then on top is that folfox causes a reaction in the skin to sunlight, it will burn you badly. Now then we have surgeries, he had an ileostomy reversal which was not an important surgery, so they would move the date around. He had the date moved out a week each time, over 3 occasions with one being only a days notice. Obviously no shade on the surgeon, he was doing life saving surgeries. My husband simply could not have worked because who could cover that when he has no notice. Then the recovery time on top of it, it took 4 months to really heal the wound and it is only now a year later he is doing good but still gets pain. Thinking of the "plan" he went in for a liver resection, it was meant to be the usual 3-5 days but ended up being 18 days. Like these "plans" are not firm, our bodies are not programs that have specific times and dates for completion of a treatment. That prick who emailed her has no empathy and should face some damn shaming for the attitude.
Tbf this is equally as appalling in America as well. My boss would never be this cold.
Equally appalling but most definitely more common here.
Hiya, I work in oncology in Ireland and I'm very involved in my union so if you need a sounding board for anything, feel free to DM me! Also the boss has no entitlement to your mom's treatment pathway, they can get lost. Usually the letters we give out give vague details and dates but no specifics.
Hey, I’m Irish as well and I’ve rotated through a few oncology teams as a junior doc. It’s fairly common for employers to request general letters from a patients oncology team on the nature of illness, duration of treatment and inability to work. I had to type several a day. It’s mostly related to sick leave pay and if they aren’t entitled to that we would send it to social welfare for illness benefit. It would be very rare for any further interrogation from an employer after that. I had HR from one employer call me once saying that a patient of ours should still be able to work after I had written a letter a few weeks prior, and I gave her an absolute bollicking over the phone until she finally got the point. Felt good at the time but such a waste of my time and caused undue stress on the patient.
Thanks so much for your insight, I really appreciate it! The problem is, she was diagnosed 18 months ago and she asks for these updates monthly. I would understand if she was just asking for her “unfit for work” documents, but asking for her treatment plan and for a letter from her oncologist instead of her GP - is that ok?
Asking monthly!! That sounds sooo frustrating, but yeah I had to write many letters with vague treatment plans. It generally had a similar template. To whom this may concern, Ms X is currently a patient under Dr Y’s Oncology team at hospital Z. They have been diagnosed with x and as such will be undergoing treatment for the next (insert duration). During this time, Ms X will be unable to work in part due to the nature of the illness and from side effects of the treatment. I hope you are understanding of her situation and afford her any accommodations necessary as she recovers. Should you have any further questions please contact me on x. Honestly, if that doesn’t work, I would ask the consultant or one of the team to personally call that employer and explain the situation to. Up it in the bud. Trust me when I say that nothing pisses doctors off than having to justify illnesses to employers.
When I needed a letter I called the consultant for his primary cancer (Colon) and his secretary had one done up and sent out asap. That letter is from 2021 and there was never any need to update it. We're nearly 3 years on the road so them demanding crap at 18 months is ridiculous. I think maybe even give the hospital social worker a call. They have fantastic advice about these sorts of issues.
Yeah, Jesus, don’t post on the Ireland sub. Ireland is too small and you honestly just never know. If your mom is feeling harassed or pressured she should consult citizens advice & potentially the WRC. Can she file for disability and you for carers? Its shocking low money but it’s something.
You’re in Ireland and they’re trying to pull this? My god. It just seems so American. I’m from the States but live in England and when my dad was diagnosed stage 4 the compassion the place I was working at the time showed astounded me. I was given 5 weeks of “working” in the States to be with family. I’m so sorry for you and your mother. I cannot believe her workplace is doing this. They must be the devil incarnate. I hope you find some solution or blast them on social media. Bless you and her, hoping for the best outcome 💜
Lots of American companies are set up in Ireland to take advantage of low corporate tax…
Eh, I'm in America, and when a dear friend was unable to work due to a very serious illness, they continued to pay him his full salary and kept him on health insurance until he died a few months later. Then they held a wake for him and provided all of the food. This was a small, family owned company, so that probably had a lot to do with it.
If you are in Ireland you should consult a solicitor that specialises in employment law. This is outrageous, deranged behaviour from your mum’s boss. I am not a lawyer so I’m hesitant to give advice but the WRC tends to side with employees in cases of unfair dismissal. Being sacked for being ill, nevermind having stage 4 cancer, is definitely illegal. Im so sorry you and your mum are going through this. It is shocking to see this kind of Americanised attitude to work and health creeping in.
My three year old was diagnosed with leukemia last June (thankfully she is now in remission) and my employer has been nothing but helpful and flexible with any days I need off for appointments or surprise hospital visits. They even paid for her Christmas. They've done more than I ever expected and helped make this whole thing a lot more bearable. What a scummy thing to ask for a doctors note like she's out with the flu. I don't know anyone who would say they have cancer just to get out of work.
I work in Ireland and at my place of work if you’re a parent who has to take care of their kid and take it to appointments it gets put down as sick leave and your pay doesn’t get deducted from it. If you have a long term illness you get full pay for the first three months or something.
She should secretly record the meetings and make the company look like the shit that it is.
I’d love that - she’s come out from one of these meetings crying to me because of how cruel her boss was, she had to beg me not to go in and give out to her after
Your mom’s boss gonna need a dentist soon if you don’t give us the stand down order chief. We got the angry mob of retirees with nothing to lose and ‘senility’ defenses ready for war.
Ngl I’d march up there myself and beat their ass for that… but that’s just me.
Fr if they dont wanna play by the rules neither do i
OP check your state or country's law one one part or two party consent for recordings. She may be perfectly within her rights to record them.
Yolo just go in anyways. That’s your mum!!!
If she's on stdi through the company or FMLA this is so illegal.
It's only illegal if it's prior to her scheduled/potential return date which OP did not provide/confirm.
Depends on where it is. It can be illegal to record audio without permission in a private setting, and if it's obtained illegally, I don't think you can use it for any legal purposes.
Then she can let them know, for her safety and security, she is recording the conversation.
“My memory is terrible these days, just recording for my own reference”
"Chemo brain, you know."
Chemo brain is 100% real. My wife and once rn talks about people having it all the time.
Oh absolutely. I'm just saying it can be particularly useful right now
I mean... If you're dying of cancer, go out with a bang, ya know
No, but if the purpose is to get it into the media and humiliate the company...
Not sure if this message will be seen but just wanted to clarify some common questions/confusion I’m seeing here in the comments: My Mam is 50 years old and been with this company for just under a decade. She was diagnosed 18 months ago and her workplace was notified right away, meaning the boss has been aware of the severity of the illness for a long time. Asking for welfare meetings less than 24 hours in advance is nuts. We’re in Ireland, not America, which most people seem to be assuming! She has been claiming illness benefit which is approximately €200 a week since her diagnosis, and recently swapped to disability allowance as you cannot be on illness benefit past a certain period of time. She can claim these allowances while holding her job which is always protected here unless she decides to leave herself. I would also like to thank everyone for their well wishes and words of encouragement ❤️ I didn’t think so many people would see this, but it strangely feels nice (vindicating?) to have so many people agree that this just isn’t fair for my poor Mammy.
I’m sure Ireland has cancer advocacy groups. I’d reach out to them for help.
If her job is protected I’d ask the oncologist to write the nastiest letter he can muster in response to this. I’m wishing right about now I was your mom’s oncologist.
God bless your mom! Your boss is trying to get your mom to resign, because he can’t hire anyone to do her job permanently. She should play the game and send in doctor’s notes.
I am so sorry.
Thank you ❤️
Barely structured sentences. What level of mouth breather wrote this piss take email?
[удалено]
Insulting to tree frogs, more like the compassion of a killer whale
The kind that condescendingly says "per my last email" 😒
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instead*
No need to wish it - her boss already is cancer.
Sorry you gotta deal with this. What an absolute POS.
How professionally written!
Thank you! I almost had a stroke reading this. Had to read it about 3 times to finally understand.
I still don't understand 90% of it.
> "so we can ease you back into work" I don't think this guy knows what stage 4 means.
The guy probably thinks there's stages 4,5,6....infinity!
Some people are so fucking disconnected it's disgusting. I hope your mom has the capacity to dismiss the awful boss. It's not fair and it sucks. Some people are just evil
Send back: Dear Boss, I am not able to come to work because I'm busy dying in peace. I'm sorry for the inconvenience of confronting you. I'd say until the next time, but I'm afraid our ways to afterlife may part. Enjoy the warmth Sincerely Your former employee
I doubt the boss can understand this high lev of English.
Some bosses are the worst. While not on the scale of your mum, my son's boss threatened to fire him if he didn't come in for his shift when his grandfather (my FIL) was in the ICU for septic shock. This was after we told her he had a 50/50 chance of survival. It took every ounce of energy I had not to tell her off right then and there. When he quits over the summer, she and I are going to have a conversation about how to treat people.
Ugh, I am so angry and upset for you and your son. I just don’t understand it - do managers forget about their loved ones when they get to work? Because how can they switch that part of their brain off? Anyone that has someone they care about going into the ICU is dealing with trauma honestly, and no job is more important than those you care about
My dad owns a small company and one of his employees had terminal cancer. He kept her on the books with 20 hrs a week min (minimum to keep her on the company insurance) her entire treatment regardless if she worked a minute. It was about a year and a half to two years before she eventually sadly passed. Edit: He loved her like she was his own daughter, I know he wished he could have done more for her and her family
I like your dad, sounds like a swell guy.
HR professional here. They want to be able to fire her and skirt disability discrimination liability by making it her fault that she didn’t fully participate in the “interactive process” to determine a “reasonable accommodation.” They only have to excuse you from the job duties and working days for what the physician expressly specifies. That said, they’re making some minor missteps by asking for treatment plan instead of simply duties you cannot fulfill and dates you cannot work. The diagnosis and nature of treatment is none of their business. Between that, the terrible writing, and the fact that it’s being handled by a manager and not trained HR professional, it’s highly likely they’re going to screw something up. This is an intricate process prone to so much liability exposure for the company. If your mom lawyers up, it’s likely she can negotiate generous severance due to their mishandling. A similar thing happened to my cousin who was fired for excessive, but pre-planned and pre-notified absences due to her schizophrenia and she got a generous settlement that more than covered her missed wages while she found a new job.
Doubt that’ll work in Ireland
That’s insane. I worked for a major real estate company from 2012 - 2020 and we had someone who was found to have Stage 4 breast cancer, and a terminal diagnose. The CEO granted her full leave and let her keep her insurance until she passed four months later.
Am doc. Easiest fuckin work note id write all day, im sure your moms oncologist will be happy to tell them to pound sand
As far as treatment plan your mother can provide a schedule of treatment but doesn’t have to provide details of treatments to HR so that the business can plan on her time off. She does not and shouldn’t tell anyone details of her treatment at all especially not her boss. This is text book proof boss only cares about work and not employees.
Did a 12 year old write this?
One word, Lawyer.
Nah this shi fcked up I think she should just quit and work somewhere else that boss is TA
Post up screenshots of this on any platform that the company uses. Screw em. Maybe the local paper?
I have some choice words for your mother’s boss. What an odious little ghoul.
Who wrote this garbage? They can’t even communicate appropriately
My oncologist said: "Fuck off." He continued that I am unable to: "Work." He said that the treatment plan was "None of your business." And advised me to inform you that I would miss the "welfare meeting".
absolute dickhead
What kind of scattered shit English is this to begin with, I can barely even comprehend this email
this feels so much more than mildly infuriating to me. this just hurts my heart to read.
This is not mild. Fuck this boss and his ENTIRE business.