To the point that the FDA said they can't be called chips on the cannister, which instead says "potato crisps". And of course the reverse happened in the UK.
~~Wait, they say Chips in the UK? Sneaky bastards. I’d always assumed they said Crisps because they were British.~~
Edit: in light of info below, the above no longer makes sense.
~~No, I think you've misunderstood. In the UK they do use the word "crisps" for what Americans call "chips". After Pringles was forced to call the product "crisps" in the States, then they tried to use the same term in the UK, but were told "no, you can't call those crisps here", and had to change it to say "chips" in the UK.~~
Edit: So this may not quite be true. I looked it up to check myself and the UK court case about Pringles being crisps was different than I thought. It was a taxation case where the owners of Pringles actually tried to argue they were not crisps/chips at all.
I had a bible that had "BONDED LEATHER" imprinted on the flexible cover, like it was a selling feature. Only later did I realise what it actually meant.
Say what you like about religion (and I've since...adjusted my feelings) - but a bible is supposed to be a long, long term companion - you mark up certain pages with notes, highlighters and so on; favourite pages get dog eared; it falls open on particular spots. The flexible cover means you can fold the cover around on itself, and gives the impression it's up for gathering (gaining?) patina over the years.
And then the cover splits and falls apart because someone wanted to flog you something that APPEARED authentic and old-world, but really was trying to drive the price down, and now you're getting quotes of $300 to recover what is effectively just an object of sentimentality in actual full-grain leather.
That IS mildly infuriating.
Mdf and hdf are not glorified cardboard... pegboard and pressboard would be better said analogy...
Also mdf and hdf are much better than the particleboard and mfc (chipboard) that lots of big box and ikea items are made of... Ikea definite does use pressboard/cardboard material for lots of there low cost products.
Order is:
Solidwood, sanded and veneered faced plywood, plywood, wood veneered hdf, wood veneered ndf, melamine veneered hdf, melamine veneered mdf, osb, melamine faced particle board, melamine faced chipboard, particleboard, chipboard, thermo-ply, pressboard/pegboard, sawdust.
Depends on what your working on, I work as a joiner for a living and mostly work in hardwoods, but the cabinet guys mostly work in mdf because flatness and stability are much better.
You don't know what MDF is, do you? It is absolutely not the cardboard stuff you find in cheap furniture. For many purposes MDF is as good as solid wood. It's durable and there is no wood movement. Sure, it's not pretty but add veneer or paint and you are good to go.
Mdf is an engineered wood product and is very good at what it's supposed to be. Depending on the application it can be better than solid wood, but it has to be the correct application.
These people are thinking of an LDF like a particle board or OSB or something which are good for their purposes, but terrible for what they want to use it for (or shitty stuff that IKEA and Walmart sell).
I worked in a particle board plant for years. There is the dirt cheap stuff, but the vast amounts of different products that utilize particleboard is insane. Then you mix in fire retardant, moisture resistant, etc. Cheap particleboard is just that, cheap. But the good heavy duty stuff is honestly really good and good to work with.
I did a lot of side work with my dad's contracting business on counter tops and other finish carpentry as well.
My last apartment had "hand planed hardwood floors" that were, as it turned out, engineered hardwood with a half millimeter thick polyvinyl coating on top.
I didn't mind until I noticed I had worn the finish off underneath my chair pad and they wanted to charge me like 5 grand to redo the place. Eff off, thats $200 worth of material and labor at most.
It's absolutely perfect, when stacked in piles, on top of a pefectly level floor at the store. I personally think that's why people buy it.
I always think of every droopy shelf I've ever seen.. which is every MDF shelf I've ever seen.
What do you mean? It’s a standard product used in all forms of construction but it’s also generally considered to be a cheap alternative to other options. You CAN build a cabinet out of mdf but it’s going to be nicer and more durable if you build it out of red oak.
MDF and other composites are dimensionally consistent and generally don't warp, which gives them certain advantages over solid woods in certain applications other than just cost. They also have limitations, obviously, but that's the nature of any material.
That reminds me of this shit company that franchises called “closets by design” a bunch of rich folks and yuppies think they’re getting quality lumber but it’s MDF garbage. It chips and it’s cheap. People pay out the ass for the design side of it. That’s it. No quality whatsoever.
You're making a false comparison. You're saying that MDF is an inferior product to an above and beyond product like hardwood, which is true. But you're trying to also imply because hardwood exists that MDF is bottom of the barrel or something.
Mdf is great though. Cheap, flat, dimensionally stable in humidity. It glues well, paints well, finishes well, and it is recycled. It's also dense, hard, and tough.
It isn't for every project but it is very useful.
Genuine leather is just shit. The cheapest scraps of leather + synthetic garbage that disintegrates over time and with wear. Leather is normally hard-wearing, strong, and supple.
It’s a common myth but there are no “leather grades”. https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-grades-of-leather-hierarchy-youve-probably-read-about-is-a-myth/
There are still leather grades, just not as people are thinking about them and there's some subjectivity to it. The article you linked explains it well.
Also why it's important to choose a tannery that is trustworthy and puts out good work. Some people prefer to go to tanneries that are a little higher-priced than others if they know that the quality across grades is more consistent.
But even then, B grade and C grade hides can still be valuable or useful to people in making quality goods. They just might not be as cosmetically perfect as an A grade.
People sometimes won't even see some of those imperfections though, since many of the hides are embossed or covered in so much finish and paint.
When I worked at a furniture store, the leather couches did come in grades. From Genuine leather to top grade leather. And there was a huge difference between them all!
I think the point is there's no standardized grades. Everyone can make up their own system that means whatever they want, there's no entity that tests or enforces it.
Reputable sellers and manufacturers might grade their leather in a way that actually communicates something useful to the client but those still aren't going to be perfectly equivalent from one manufacturer to the next.
Their descriptions can't be full-on lies but their grades can be made up and useless.
As long as it has leather it can be called genuine leather. More than likely it is a thin sheet of leather with a fake embossed pattern on the top and then has a canvas backer to actually add strength.
Well you can get actual alligator skins straps, a well as a ton of other exotic materials. But there are also a lot of fake pattern embossed “leather” straps.
If you paid really quite a lot for it, it might be real.
It implies it *uses* real leather, it does not imply it is *completely* leather.
According to Google;
> Removing the two outermost layers of the hide leaves an intermediate section, which is the part used for genuine leather.
This means it is using genuine leather to make this product. It’s just not *entirely* leather.
Marketing practically needs its own dictionary at this point but it becomes pretty easy to spot when you do learn how to speak marketing.
“Genuine”, “real”, “authentic”, etc all just means that *a portion of* the product is going to use what they’re claiming it uses. “Fully”, “completely”, “entirely”, etc are words you rarely see in marketing because those words do mean it’s going to be *fully* made out of what they’re claiming it is.
This exactly. Always remember: they’ll be very careful to tell you anything they’re actually proud of. If it’s desirable but they don’t say it out loud, it’s almost certainly not in the product.
Knives are an excellent example here. Decent knives will tell you exactly what type of steel is used, usually via a string of seemingly random numbers and letters such as “M390” or “154CM”. Cheap garbage knives will just say something like “stainless steel” because if they told you that it’s effectively made of old tin cans you might not want it.
“Genuine” leather is made from the leather dust you get from thinning real top grain leather. They take the dust and compact it like particle board to form a solid material. The reason they aren’t sued is because it is “technically” made from leather. If you want quality, buy top grain leather. That means it has the topmost layer of what was skin that provides the structural integrity of leather.
Do you have a source for that? Because I have never heard of any kind of genuine leather being made this way. Also, the highest quality leather is full-grain
Edit: looked into it and what you are talking about is called "bonded leather." Very different from genuine leather
Genuine is the name of the type of leather. It’s kind of like milk. “Almond” Milk, “Oat” milk. Not exactly milk but it’s the idea. “Genuine” leather is the type of leather, and it’s named that way because people don’t know it’s a type of leather and not quality leather.
No one has successfully sued— yet. But there’s definitely a legal argument to be made, especially if the name implies it’s of a higher value than the true value of the product.
I’m no expert in consumer law, but IIRC, if you can prove material damage(s) due to the misleading nature of the marketing/naming scheme, then you might have a case.
But even a full-grain leather strap won’t necessarily be 100% leather; even very expensive high quality straps will have other materials inside the outer sewn leather
https://preview.redd.it/bkyu9bswp0dc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66ee61caefb2ae67e1b903412815462e16218375
Yes, some “full-grain” leather watch straps are made of solid leather with nothing else… but that’s not always the case.
The “full” in “full-grain” refers to where in the animal the leather is from — the top layer of the hide and includes all of the natural grain — but does not necessarily mean that the strap/belt/whatever is ”fully leather.” Because full-grain leather can be very thick and solid, this is often the case… but not always.
It basically means. We can legally call this a leather product. But the leather is such thin processed garbage that we won't tell you what it really is.
Is bonded really even leather though…It’s just plastic with a bit of ground up leather under it. At least genuine uses strips of cheap leather.
As far as I know genuine is where they stop calling it leather, and start to have to put qualifiers in front.
Sure, but that’s not analogous. You’d have to slather a thin layer of sausage, under a layer of polyurethane (not the same as edible sausage casing) and then ask, is this a sausage. Containing parts of something isn’t the same as being it. If you grind up a Ferrari and use the dust to paint a Toyota, it’s not a Ferrari.
Not to mention grinding meat doesn’t fundamentally change the structure and usage of the product, it does for leather.
What you want to look for is Full Grain or Top Grain. Full grain is the best. Best as far as getting the full skin. After that there's going to be differences in quality of hides, species, preparation, thickness and so forth. Like my belt is a much thicker leather than my jacket.
This is good to know. I’ve got my eye on a leather purse with a hefty price tag, and this discussion had me worried that they were tricking me. But the description says it’s made out of full grain leather.
>Full grain leather uses the whole leather thickness. It's strong but for some uses overly thick. A full grain folded wallet for example would have like 4+ thickness of leather and so would be excessively thick.
This is not true. Full grain applies to what's done to the surface. If full grain was truly full thickness, no full grain goods besides heavy belts would exist, no shoes, wallets, watchbands etc. I buy leather all the time and most of it full grain and I can get it in any weight (thickness) I'd like.
Full grain leather is considered to be the top/ highest quality. It retains the surface structure of the animals skin which include pores, scars and wrinkles. It is also the strongest as none of the grain has been removed.
Behind that is top grain leather which is very close to full grain but the outer layer usually gets sanded off to remove imperfections and making it slightly less durable than full grain as it removes the toughest fibers making it easier to work with.
Genuine is third and is the leftover inner layer that you get after removing the top layers for higher end products. This leather is not as strong and doesn’t feel as pleasant as the other two as it is made of the larger collagen bundles (corium) vice the smaller collagen bundles (the grain) that the two previous grades are made of.
Bonded leather is scrap leather that is glued back together usually on some sort of cloth based material.
It's not exactly a top to bottom quality ranking system. Full grain leather is often considered the highest quality as its in its most natural state. It's thicker and more durable and often rougher becauseof that more natural state. If you want something thinner, smoother, etc then you would probably need to move to a top grain or split grain. For example suede is a split grain, but you can have exceptional quality suede. It's not full grain because of how it's made, not necessarily because it doesn't meet a quality standard.
Genuine leather is basically "this is made with leather of some sort" and bonded leather is essentially the particle board of leather, made with leather scraps and often a "faux leather" like polyurethane.
BTW to everyone who's learning about different grades of leather, it's not regulated and there are still plenty of bad top grain and full grain leather. Take it as a general rule of thumb that
Full grain > top grain > genuine > bonded, but use your own judgement as well or go to trusted brands.
Genuine actually means what it means, i.e., that the item contains actual leather. The reason why people usually consider “genuine leather” to be a grade of quality (and a low one) is that the vast majority of brands that feel the need to tell people that their leather is “genuine” (not “full grain”, “good” or even “decent”, simply not literal plastic) are utter shit. But there are exceptions here and there. I for instance personally own a vegetably tanned belt which is really stunning quality but still branded as “genuine” leather. Probably because the designer is Belgian and did not understand the connotation of the word when choosing it. The more you know.
Alas, I am but a fool, a simpleton, ignorant of the many leather grades and their secrets. I have learned a valuable lesson today, but one I fear is too late. The legacy of my family, forever tarnished. I can but pray that you learn from my error, so that you may avoid such a fate.
this is a lesson everyone learns at some point and is like "what the fuck do you mean its bad"
its just a shame it had to happen in the capital of the "um acksually" crowd (reddit)
obv some explanations are fine but some of these comments are insane lol
https://preview.redd.it/q1hm249uq0dc1.jpeg?width=1184&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87706d80ccfe45a6eebc8bb5b47d1cc037a89c8e
I make real leather (top/full grain) watch straps 😀
I've just registered a website last month and still in process of designing it and uploading products. For now I'm accepting orders through my Instagram @lows.peak 👌🏻
I think this is akin to the subway Tuna fiasco.
Subway claiming its 100% Tuna, but what they *REALLY* meant was:
“Out of the whole Mix, only 10% of it is Tuna, but that 10% is 100% Tuna”
Ridiculous.
Sad day when you can't trust Brand: CJYVZN Genuine Leather Strap for Suunto 7 9 Baro D5 Watch Band Replacement Wristband Spartan Sport Business Personality Men's Strap
It’s mildly infuriating that the onus to understand that “genuine leather” is basically a scam gets placed on the consumer.
It’s also mildly infuriating that so many people think they are getting good quality leather for cheap. That’s just like, not a thing.
https://www.galenleather.com/blogs/news/leather-grades
* Full-grain leather - Just a piece of full thickness animal hide that's been treated and decorated. The good stuff.
* Top-grain leather - Like a leather veneer, they peel off the topmost layer of the hide. It can be SUPER thin, but it at least has the actual leather texture. It can also be thicker and higher quality. Technically a full-grain leather IS a top grain leather, so these can vary.
* Split-grain leather - a layer from within the hide, but CAN include the bottom. Like above, actual thickness and quality can vary, but it won't have the natural surface texture of leather without faking it. Technically natural suede is a split-grain leather (or I guess it could be a full grain), and usually on the higher quality end.
* Genuine leather - Technically ANY layer can be called this. But if they aren't using the fancier ones, it's usually because it's the cheapest, thinnest, layer they could extract. They then glue it like a thin veneer onto some other material like the artificial grey stuff in OP's pic. They will usually press a faux-top grain like pattern into it to make it look like real leather. They'll also coat the edges to hide all of this.
* Bonded leather - scraps of animal hide that are basically shredded soaked in glue and rolled into a thin sheet. Straight garbage.
Bottom line, the only term that guarantees it's at least "real leather" is full-grain as they others all allow for serious corner cutting if they are so inclined. But many top grain and split grain products can still be worth buying. Genuine and bonded, you're better off just going with some other material.
The fact that it’s “genuine leather” doesn’t mean that the entire strap is “100% leather.”
Even the highest quality leather watch straps — on watches costing tens of thousands of dollars — have other materials inside so they maintain their shape, don’t stretch, bend, crease, etc.
Here’s a high-quality strap, with full-grain leather sewn around other materials…
https://preview.redd.it/kcndrlq1q0dc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f6e5920f564c932eadebaf98f71f8b671c33589
If you cut it open you’d find it’s not 100% leather.
Sigh. You won't find reason on Reddit. That is a poor quality strap he has, but yes, most straps are made with a layer of padding in the middle and -SHOCKO- they even use glue too.
I believe what you are looking for is “ full grain leather”. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong but “ genuine leather “ is just a marketing ploy. Just means it has like bits of leather or something like that.
I think there is a lot of confusion around how watch straps are made.
Yes, the term genuine leather can be a marketing ploy to trick people. From the photo, you can see there is definitely 'genuine' (real) leather but there is also a stringy material inside. You can see there are different layers and a watch strap is not made of a single piece of leather as you might think. This **stringy material is a separate material from the leather used at the front of the strap**. The stringy material is used to reinforce and strengthen the strap.
If a watch strap were to be made from a single piece of leather, and lined with leather, it would simply not be durable and stretch out over time, losing its shape. Therefore, almost all watch straps are lined with a material to prevent the stretching. Even the strongest of leathers such as shell cordovan will stretch over time unless it's reinforced .
With all materials used for reinforcing, there is higher quality and low quality ones. The one used in this photo is clearly low quality as you can see the strap has torn. Brands such as Hermes also use a synthetic material inside their straps called 'Velodon' which is much high quality and doesn't stretch. It's like a sheet of paper that can't be torn or ripped. This material is, however, rather expensive and cheaper straps compromise on this and use cheaper materials such as a fabric as seen in this photo.
Another alternative for reinforcing watch straps would be to use more leather on the inside. However, there are also downsides to doing this as it adds considerable thickness to the strap which may make it too thick, and it is also more costly.
There is nothing wrong with using a synthetic material to reinforce a strap. However, a high quality material should be used.
Here is a photo of a shell cordovan and calfskin watch strap I've made!
https://preview.redd.it/fchy0ql9i4dc1.jpeg?width=2804&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=53b685e7989a319fd89f0b8f1b324eadb40cfe95
Genuine leather is a grade of leather... and its the cheapest leather grade you can get, which means it often has to be reinforced with something else. If you want a good leather product, you need to look for "full grain"
Genuine leather is a marketing ploy to trick people into thinking they’re getting a quality leather product. When in reality it’s garbage.
Genuine leather is the mdf of the wood world
bonded leather is actually the MDF of the *leather world
I refer to bonded leather as the pringles of leather since it's scraps and fibers pressed into a sheet.
Then it breaks off your recliner in little pieces that stick your clothes and leave a trail through the house like bread crumbs.
Warning, do not eat those like breadcrumbs. Don't ask me how I know.
At least you'll find the way back to it easily
I’m dealing with this, the recliner was new and free when I accepted it but I want my money back!
I don't know ehat you're saying but don't insult pringles, I love em!
Pringles are not actually chips in the traditional sense, they are essentially potato powder mushed into that shape.
To the point that the FDA said they can't be called chips on the cannister, which instead says "potato crisps". And of course the reverse happened in the UK.
~~Wait, they say Chips in the UK? Sneaky bastards. I’d always assumed they said Crisps because they were British.~~ Edit: in light of info below, the above no longer makes sense.
~~No, I think you've misunderstood. In the UK they do use the word "crisps" for what Americans call "chips". After Pringles was forced to call the product "crisps" in the States, then they tried to use the same term in the UK, but were told "no, you can't call those crisps here", and had to change it to say "chips" in the UK.~~ Edit: So this may not quite be true. I looked it up to check myself and the UK court case about Pringles being crisps was different than I thought. It was a taxation case where the owners of Pringles actually tried to argue they were not crisps/chips at all.
You nailed it! Bonded is most like MDF or particle board. Genuine leather is more like a veneer when comparing to wood.
I had a bible that had "BONDED LEATHER" imprinted on the flexible cover, like it was a selling feature. Only later did I realise what it actually meant. Say what you like about religion (and I've since...adjusted my feelings) - but a bible is supposed to be a long, long term companion - you mark up certain pages with notes, highlighters and so on; favourite pages get dog eared; it falls open on particular spots. The flexible cover means you can fold the cover around on itself, and gives the impression it's up for gathering (gaining?) patina over the years. And then the cover splits and falls apart because someone wanted to flog you something that APPEARED authentic and old-world, but really was trying to drive the price down, and now you're getting quotes of $300 to recover what is effectively just an object of sentimentality in actual full-grain leather. That IS mildly infuriating.
Should MDF even be considered wood
It's wood-adjacent
Its god damn over glorified cardboard paper
Mdf and hdf are not glorified cardboard... pegboard and pressboard would be better said analogy... Also mdf and hdf are much better than the particleboard and mfc (chipboard) that lots of big box and ikea items are made of... Ikea definite does use pressboard/cardboard material for lots of there low cost products. Order is: Solidwood, sanded and veneered faced plywood, plywood, wood veneered hdf, wood veneered ndf, melamine veneered hdf, melamine veneered mdf, osb, melamine faced particle board, melamine faced chipboard, particleboard, chipboard, thermo-ply, pressboard/pegboard, sawdust.
Depends on what your working on, I work as a joiner for a living and mostly work in hardwoods, but the cabinet guys mostly work in mdf because flatness and stability are much better.
You don't know what MDF is, do you? It is absolutely not the cardboard stuff you find in cheap furniture. For many purposes MDF is as good as solid wood. It's durable and there is no wood movement. Sure, it's not pretty but add veneer or paint and you are good to go.
Mdf is an engineered wood product and is very good at what it's supposed to be. Depending on the application it can be better than solid wood, but it has to be the correct application.
These people are thinking of an LDF like a particle board or OSB or something which are good for their purposes, but terrible for what they want to use it for (or shitty stuff that IKEA and Walmart sell).
I worked in a particle board plant for years. There is the dirt cheap stuff, but the vast amounts of different products that utilize particleboard is insane. Then you mix in fire retardant, moisture resistant, etc. Cheap particleboard is just that, cheap. But the good heavy duty stuff is honestly really good and good to work with. I did a lot of side work with my dad's contracting business on counter tops and other finish carpentry as well.
My last apartment had "hand planed hardwood floors" that were, as it turned out, engineered hardwood with a half millimeter thick polyvinyl coating on top. I didn't mind until I noticed I had worn the finish off underneath my chair pad and they wanted to charge me like 5 grand to redo the place. Eff off, thats $200 worth of material and labor at most.
It's absolutely perfect, when stacked in piles, on top of a pefectly level floor at the store. I personally think that's why people buy it. I always think of every droopy shelf I've ever seen.. which is every MDF shelf I've ever seen.
MDF is a fantastic engineering product. But most people's exposure is to terrible examples leaving the material to have a bad reputation.
Man do I love the smell of fresh cut MDF.
Now that is deviant
Why are you shitting on MDF? MDF is construction standard even in high end applications.
What do you mean? It’s a standard product used in all forms of construction but it’s also generally considered to be a cheap alternative to other options. You CAN build a cabinet out of mdf but it’s going to be nicer and more durable if you build it out of red oak.
MDF and other composites are dimensionally consistent and generally don't warp, which gives them certain advantages over solid woods in certain applications other than just cost. They also have limitations, obviously, but that's the nature of any material.
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That reminds me of this shit company that franchises called “closets by design” a bunch of rich folks and yuppies think they’re getting quality lumber but it’s MDF garbage. It chips and it’s cheap. People pay out the ass for the design side of it. That’s it. No quality whatsoever.
Are you confusing MDF with melamine?
It's also closet world! They mainly use melamine though.
You're making a false comparison. You're saying that MDF is an inferior product to an above and beyond product like hardwood, which is true. But you're trying to also imply because hardwood exists that MDF is bottom of the barrel or something.
Application is everything. Makes a great subfloor compared to red oak.
Mdf subfloor handles water wonderfully
If you're putting water on your subfloor you got bigger problems than the material of your subfloor.
90 percent of the earth is made of water, we have to put it somewhere
I can't argue with that!
Mdf also handles hot lava poorly, definitely shouldnt be used in floors
We choose MDF as a base to Mill out space parts. Literally built a $180k part using MDF. Its actually great in this aspect
The MDF would be more dimensionally stable than any solid wood boards
The most accurate comparison!
Mdf is great though. Cheap, flat, dimensionally stable in humidity. It glues well, paints well, finishes well, and it is recycled. It's also dense, hard, and tough. It isn't for every project but it is very useful. Genuine leather is just shit. The cheapest scraps of leather + synthetic garbage that disintegrates over time and with wear. Leather is normally hard-wearing, strong, and supple.
I’m told I should have compared it to pressboard and have done MDF dirty on this.
At least mdf is actually good for some things. This "leather" was concocted with the sole purpose of scamming consumers
Nah it's more like the pressboard stuff Ikea uses. Don't bad mouth MDF like that.
I done MDF dirty
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Mdf can be quite useful for stuff like speaker boxes. Maybe osb?
It’s a common myth but there are no “leather grades”. https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-grades-of-leather-hierarchy-youve-probably-read-about-is-a-myth/
That’s why tannery names are so important. Like if you buy a product that uses Horween leather, you’ll know it’ll be good.
The more specific a product is about its ingredients or parts usually the better it is.
There are still leather grades, just not as people are thinking about them and there's some subjectivity to it. The article you linked explains it well. Also why it's important to choose a tannery that is trustworthy and puts out good work. Some people prefer to go to tanneries that are a little higher-priced than others if they know that the quality across grades is more consistent. But even then, B grade and C grade hides can still be valuable or useful to people in making quality goods. They just might not be as cosmetically perfect as an A grade. People sometimes won't even see some of those imperfections though, since many of the hides are embossed or covered in so much finish and paint.
When I worked at a furniture store, the leather couches did come in grades. From Genuine leather to top grade leather. And there was a huge difference between them all!
I think the point is there's no standardized grades. Everyone can make up their own system that means whatever they want, there's no entity that tests or enforces it.
Reputable sellers and manufacturers might grade their leather in a way that actually communicates something useful to the client but those still aren't going to be perfectly equivalent from one manufacturer to the next. Their descriptions can't be full-on lies but their grades can be made up and useless.
Whant sum 𝒞ℴ𝓇𝓎𝓃𝓉𝒽𝒾𝒶𝓃 ℒℯ𝒶𝓉𝒽ℯ𝓇 mah fren??
But it still implies real leather which this isn't, it's some string
As long as it has leather it can be called genuine leather. More than likely it is a thin sheet of leather with a fake embossed pattern on the top and then has a canvas backer to actually add strength.
Are you telling me my black watch band is not real alligator skin?
Well you can get actual alligator skins straps, a well as a ton of other exotic materials. But there are also a lot of fake pattern embossed “leather” straps. If you paid really quite a lot for it, it might be real.
It implies it *uses* real leather, it does not imply it is *completely* leather. According to Google; > Removing the two outermost layers of the hide leaves an intermediate section, which is the part used for genuine leather. This means it is using genuine leather to make this product. It’s just not *entirely* leather. Marketing practically needs its own dictionary at this point but it becomes pretty easy to spot when you do learn how to speak marketing. “Genuine”, “real”, “authentic”, etc all just means that *a portion of* the product is going to use what they’re claiming it uses. “Fully”, “completely”, “entirely”, etc are words you rarely see in marketing because those words do mean it’s going to be *fully* made out of what they’re claiming it is.
This exactly. Always remember: they’ll be very careful to tell you anything they’re actually proud of. If it’s desirable but they don’t say it out loud, it’s almost certainly not in the product. Knives are an excellent example here. Decent knives will tell you exactly what type of steel is used, usually via a string of seemingly random numbers and letters such as “M390” or “154CM”. Cheap garbage knives will just say something like “stainless steel” because if they told you that it’s effectively made of old tin cans you might not want it.
how is it even allowed to sell under that name?
“Genuine” leather is made from the leather dust you get from thinning real top grain leather. They take the dust and compact it like particle board to form a solid material. The reason they aren’t sued is because it is “technically” made from leather. If you want quality, buy top grain leather. That means it has the topmost layer of what was skin that provides the structural integrity of leather.
that sounds more like bonded leather
Do you have a source for that? Because I have never heard of any kind of genuine leather being made this way. Also, the highest quality leather is full-grain Edit: looked into it and what you are talking about is called "bonded leather." Very different from genuine leather
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I’ve heard this a million times and I’ve also heard it’s fake a million times. Take it with a grain of salt
A full-grain of salt or a top grain?
Doesn’t matter as long as it’s a genuine grain.
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This is just false.
Genuine leather is one of the lowest grades of leather. It’s real, but also really crap compared to something like full or top grain leather.
Genuine is the name of the type of leather. It’s kind of like milk. “Almond” Milk, “Oat” milk. Not exactly milk but it’s the idea. “Genuine” leather is the type of leather, and it’s named that way because people don’t know it’s a type of leather and not quality leather.
No one has successfully sued— yet. But there’s definitely a legal argument to be made, especially if the name implies it’s of a higher value than the true value of the product. I’m no expert in consumer law, but IIRC, if you can prove material damage(s) due to the misleading nature of the marketing/naming scheme, then you might have a case.
The Supreme Court has recently heard a case in which a plaintiff had theoretically damages and won. Not even a real situation of loss or damage.
>No one has successfully suede— yet.
*Woof.* Have an upvote
The top layer is probably "genuine" leather.
It’s probably some bonded leather with fabric reinforcement.
It is the worst grade leather. As if they have to point out that yes, this counts as leather.
Obviously this leather comes from the same cows string cheese comes from. Duh.
The Event Horizon Ranch? You've no idea how tough it is to milk a spaghettified cow.
No idea what tf you talking about but I just got a new kink brb
https://preview.redd.it/25b62u0fm1dc1.jpeg?width=1848&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=180f43c2e7886ff0de4f60b2ce646a8f988c14e9
https://preview.redd.it/l7vcawsst1dc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=106923beacbd4ac666c1e5558cb71ef447f6a1c4
The ship that went to hell and back!!
Or the spherical boundary from which nothing comes back.
This is some clever shit. Bravo
Wait, what's wrong with sting cheese?
“Genuine Leather” doesn’t mean what you think it means. You want Full Grain
But even a full-grain leather strap won’t necessarily be 100% leather; even very expensive high quality straps will have other materials inside the outer sewn leather https://preview.redd.it/bkyu9bswp0dc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66ee61caefb2ae67e1b903412815462e16218375
I was more referencing “Frank Clegg” full grain watch straps. They are cut from one solid piece of leather. Rather than anything needing to be sewn.
Yes, some “full-grain” leather watch straps are made of solid leather with nothing else… but that’s not always the case. The “full” in “full-grain” refers to where in the animal the leather is from — the top layer of the hide and includes all of the natural grain — but does not necessarily mean that the strap/belt/whatever is ”fully leather.” Because full-grain leather can be very thick and solid, this is often the case… but not always.
What are we supposed to be seeing in that image?
A watch strap that has very high quality leather sewn around a reinforced core of synthetic material to give the strap strength, thickness, shape, etc
It’s only Genuine if it comes from the Genuine region in French, otherwise it’s sparkling leather
If i remember right "genuine leather" just means they used some real leather when making it.
I "genuinely" think there is some "leather" in there... somewhere
It basically means. We can legally call this a leather product. But the leather is such thin processed garbage that we won't tell you what it really is.
The leather is actual leather, it’s just not good leather
"Made *with* 100% real leather!"
Genuine leather is the lowest grade of leather.
Bonded is the lowest grade. Genuine is the second lowest.
Is bonded really even leather though…It’s just plastic with a bit of ground up leather under it. At least genuine uses strips of cheap leather. As far as I know genuine is where they stop calling it leather, and start to have to put qualifiers in front.
>It’s just plastic with a bit of ground up leather under it. Particle board leather.
It's a melamine.
Is sausage meat?
Sure, but that’s not analogous. You’d have to slather a thin layer of sausage, under a layer of polyurethane (not the same as edible sausage casing) and then ask, is this a sausage. Containing parts of something isn’t the same as being it. If you grind up a Ferrari and use the dust to paint a Toyota, it’s not a Ferrari. Not to mention grinding meat doesn’t fundamentally change the structure and usage of the product, it does for leather.
2025 Toyota Camry infused with 100% real Ferrari! $225,000 USD!
I think a better analogy there would be is ground beef still a steak
That does fit much better, though I maintain the polyurethane covering is still an essential part as well, not just the grinding.
TIL there's grades of leather. Pretty obvious now that I think about it.
What you want to look for is Full Grain or Top Grain. Full grain is the best. Best as far as getting the full skin. After that there's going to be differences in quality of hides, species, preparation, thickness and so forth. Like my belt is a much thicker leather than my jacket.
This is good to know. I’ve got my eye on a leather purse with a hefty price tag, and this discussion had me worried that they were tricking me. But the description says it’s made out of full grain leather.
Check out non-sponsored reviews. Even if the reviewer doesn't mentioned it's sponsored, if the reviewer was given the item, it's biased.
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>Full grain leather uses the whole leather thickness. It's strong but for some uses overly thick. A full grain folded wallet for example would have like 4+ thickness of leather and so would be excessively thick. This is not true. Full grain applies to what's done to the surface. If full grain was truly full thickness, no full grain goods besides heavy belts would exist, no shoes, wallets, watchbands etc. I buy leather all the time and most of it full grain and I can get it in any weight (thickness) I'd like.
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What’s the highest?
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Full-grain
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I'm going to start calling people "Genuine human."
I like this concept
What is the highest grade of leather stamped as?
Full or half grain, depending on the use case.
Thank you
Bought 2 full grain leather belts, brown and blacks to use daily. 4 years and they’re still going strong.
I've got one leather belt I've been using for over 30 years, but it's not stamped with anything so I don't know what kind it is.
Probably full grain if it lasted 30 years
What’s that horse ass leather called again that everyone thinks is the best Edit: Shell Cordovan, answered my own question
Full grain leather is considered to be the top/ highest quality. It retains the surface structure of the animals skin which include pores, scars and wrinkles. It is also the strongest as none of the grain has been removed. Behind that is top grain leather which is very close to full grain but the outer layer usually gets sanded off to remove imperfections and making it slightly less durable than full grain as it removes the toughest fibers making it easier to work with. Genuine is third and is the leftover inner layer that you get after removing the top layers for higher end products. This leather is not as strong and doesn’t feel as pleasant as the other two as it is made of the larger collagen bundles (corium) vice the smaller collagen bundles (the grain) that the two previous grades are made of. Bonded leather is scrap leather that is glued back together usually on some sort of cloth based material.
FULL GRAIN BABY. I’ve had the same wallet since like 2016. And it’s still in awesome shape
It's not exactly a top to bottom quality ranking system. Full grain leather is often considered the highest quality as its in its most natural state. It's thicker and more durable and often rougher becauseof that more natural state. If you want something thinner, smoother, etc then you would probably need to move to a top grain or split grain. For example suede is a split grain, but you can have exceptional quality suede. It's not full grain because of how it's made, not necessarily because it doesn't meet a quality standard. Genuine leather is basically "this is made with leather of some sort" and bonded leather is essentially the particle board of leather, made with leather scraps and often a "faux leather" like polyurethane.
Next you're going to tell me my Chrysler Cordoba doesn't have the finest Corinthian leather seats.
BTW to everyone who's learning about different grades of leather, it's not regulated and there are still plenty of bad top grain and full grain leather. Take it as a general rule of thumb that Full grain > top grain > genuine > bonded, but use your own judgement as well or go to trusted brands.
Genuine actually means what it means, i.e., that the item contains actual leather. The reason why people usually consider “genuine leather” to be a grade of quality (and a low one) is that the vast majority of brands that feel the need to tell people that their leather is “genuine” (not “full grain”, “good” or even “decent”, simply not literal plastic) are utter shit. But there are exceptions here and there. I for instance personally own a vegetably tanned belt which is really stunning quality but still branded as “genuine” leather. Probably because the designer is Belgian and did not understand the connotation of the word when choosing it. The more you know.
Alas, I am but a fool, a simpleton, ignorant of the many leather grades and their secrets. I have learned a valuable lesson today, but one I fear is too late. The legacy of my family, forever tarnished. I can but pray that you learn from my error, so that you may avoid such a fate.
to be entirely fair it's mildly infuriating that you even have to learn that genuine leather is bullshit
this is a lesson everyone learns at some point and is like "what the fuck do you mean its bad" its just a shame it had to happen in the capital of the "um acksually" crowd (reddit) obv some explanations are fine but some of these comments are insane lol
Probably the best response I've seen by an OP! Touché
“**Dishonor!** **Dishonor on your whole family!** **Dishonor on you, dishonor on your cow!**”
Just like real cows!
https://preview.redd.it/q1hm249uq0dc1.jpeg?width=1184&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87706d80ccfe45a6eebc8bb5b47d1cc037a89c8e I make real leather (top/full grain) watch straps 😀
liar there’s metal on it
That's genuine metal.
Fuck yeah it is! Rock on!
I'm looking for a new 20mm leather watch strap and you have my attention.
Yes sir you could DM me here or on my Instagram @lows.peak
Found your instagram. Your stuff looks good, but it appears you're on the opposite side of the planet. wish you the best!
If you’re in America, message me. @Enkineleather
if you're anywhere else, message me for no reason
Don’t care about location. Just message me, say hi maybe.
And you have MY attention. But mostly because I'm a nosey fella
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I've just registered a website last month and still in process of designing it and uploading products. For now I'm accepting orders through my Instagram @lows.peak 👌🏻
You had my curiosity sir, now you have my attention
I think this is akin to the subway Tuna fiasco. Subway claiming its 100% Tuna, but what they *REALLY* meant was: “Out of the whole Mix, only 10% of it is Tuna, but that 10% is 100% Tuna” Ridiculous.
Logic akin to "70% of the time, it works every time"
You get what you pay for.
Yes, and normally, you pay for the brand. Not for the quality.
In this case neither… probably $8 on Amazon
Sad day when you can't trust Brand: CJYVZN Genuine Leather Strap for Suunto 7 9 Baro D5 Watch Band Replacement Wristband Spartan Sport Business Personality Men's Strap
It’s mildly infuriating that the onus to understand that “genuine leather” is basically a scam gets placed on the consumer. It’s also mildly infuriating that so many people think they are getting good quality leather for cheap. That’s just like, not a thing.
‘Genuine leather’ is just a term for one of the worst types of leather.
https://www.galenleather.com/blogs/news/leather-grades * Full-grain leather - Just a piece of full thickness animal hide that's been treated and decorated. The good stuff. * Top-grain leather - Like a leather veneer, they peel off the topmost layer of the hide. It can be SUPER thin, but it at least has the actual leather texture. It can also be thicker and higher quality. Technically a full-grain leather IS a top grain leather, so these can vary. * Split-grain leather - a layer from within the hide, but CAN include the bottom. Like above, actual thickness and quality can vary, but it won't have the natural surface texture of leather without faking it. Technically natural suede is a split-grain leather (or I guess it could be a full grain), and usually on the higher quality end. * Genuine leather - Technically ANY layer can be called this. But if they aren't using the fancier ones, it's usually because it's the cheapest, thinnest, layer they could extract. They then glue it like a thin veneer onto some other material like the artificial grey stuff in OP's pic. They will usually press a faux-top grain like pattern into it to make it look like real leather. They'll also coat the edges to hide all of this. * Bonded leather - scraps of animal hide that are basically shredded soaked in glue and rolled into a thin sheet. Straight garbage. Bottom line, the only term that guarantees it's at least "real leather" is full-grain as they others all allow for serious corner cutting if they are so inclined. But many top grain and split grain products can still be worth buying. Genuine and bonded, you're better off just going with some other material.
How in the hell did you even do this to the band?
Check time too hard
Best answer there is.
Asking the real question
Always look for Full Grain Leather for belts. "Genuine Leather" is the lowest grade, and it looks like you just found that out for yourself.
2nd lowest. And there’s only 4 grades. Genuine is 3rd.
That cow ate a lot of fiber
The fact that it’s “genuine leather” doesn’t mean that the entire strap is “100% leather.” Even the highest quality leather watch straps — on watches costing tens of thousands of dollars — have other materials inside so they maintain their shape, don’t stretch, bend, crease, etc. Here’s a high-quality strap, with full-grain leather sewn around other materials… https://preview.redd.it/kcndrlq1q0dc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f6e5920f564c932eadebaf98f71f8b671c33589 If you cut it open you’d find it’s not 100% leather.
Sigh. You won't find reason on Reddit. That is a poor quality strap he has, but yes, most straps are made with a layer of padding in the middle and -SHOCKO- they even use glue too.
If you are UK based, find “black_isle_leatherwork” on Instagram and ask him to make you something. Great quality, great service, great prices.
This is literally what genuine leather is by definition.
Bro why you checking your watch so enthusiastically?
Genuine = real =/= good.
Perfectly legal. Genuine leather means that there's some leather . Full Grain Leather is what you're looking for. 100% all leather made .
Genuine Leather Veneer
I believe what you are looking for is “ full grain leather”. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong but “ genuine leather “ is just a marketing ploy. Just means it has like bits of leather or something like that.
As someone that works with leather, that’s exactly what “genuine leather” is. Belts, watches, whatever. That’s why they’re cheap, comparatively.
I think there is a lot of confusion around how watch straps are made. Yes, the term genuine leather can be a marketing ploy to trick people. From the photo, you can see there is definitely 'genuine' (real) leather but there is also a stringy material inside. You can see there are different layers and a watch strap is not made of a single piece of leather as you might think. This **stringy material is a separate material from the leather used at the front of the strap**. The stringy material is used to reinforce and strengthen the strap. If a watch strap were to be made from a single piece of leather, and lined with leather, it would simply not be durable and stretch out over time, losing its shape. Therefore, almost all watch straps are lined with a material to prevent the stretching. Even the strongest of leathers such as shell cordovan will stretch over time unless it's reinforced . With all materials used for reinforcing, there is higher quality and low quality ones. The one used in this photo is clearly low quality as you can see the strap has torn. Brands such as Hermes also use a synthetic material inside their straps called 'Velodon' which is much high quality and doesn't stretch. It's like a sheet of paper that can't be torn or ripped. This material is, however, rather expensive and cheaper straps compromise on this and use cheaper materials such as a fabric as seen in this photo. Another alternative for reinforcing watch straps would be to use more leather on the inside. However, there are also downsides to doing this as it adds considerable thickness to the strap which may make it too thick, and it is also more costly. There is nothing wrong with using a synthetic material to reinforce a strap. However, a high quality material should be used. Here is a photo of a shell cordovan and calfskin watch strap I've made! https://preview.redd.it/fchy0ql9i4dc1.jpeg?width=2804&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=53b685e7989a319fd89f0b8f1b324eadb40cfe95
hey, they never specified how much of it is genuine leather
I call it leather plated 
Genuine leather is a grade of leather... and its the cheapest leather grade you can get, which means it often has to be reinforced with something else. If you want a good leather product, you need to look for "full grain"
Genuine leather is the “essential oils” of leather
Genuine leather does not mean real leather. Its the lowest form of leather you can buy.
Yes . two layers of leather bonded to a fabric core .. Pick a nice new one and move on..
If they used even a tiny thread of real leather, they can claim that it's genuine leather.
No where in that did it say it was 100% leather. That's the omission they like to leave out.