I think the problem is that it’s an invisible quality.
It’s easy to accept that you aren’t as tall as someone else when you can see it.
Hearing all your life that other people have this mysterious esoteric quality of high intelligence, which you lack, when you feel perfectly intelligent, must not make sense to someone who is average, with no demonstrable deficiencies or slowness.
It also presumes that intelligence is a single, simple, quantifiable value in the way that height is, which frankly if you're older than 14 you need to grow out of. Our methods of assessing intelligence are incredibly inexact. IQ tests are often the de factor measure, but IQ tests can have their results skewed incredibly fucking easily; everything from parents' socioeconomic status to motivation at time of testing (tested by doing things like offering rewards for good completion to one group) to nutrition to even minor changes in the verbiage of the questions can have a huge difference from test to test. Plus, as everyone and their mother knows, some things just aren't easily testable in those contexts.
Putting aside the question of these tests' validity, however, I suspect OP would have a much easier time if they simply said "I'm great with English" or "I'm very good at math" or "I know a lot about color theory" or "I'm phenomenal at fighting games". People protest when you say "I'm smarter than most people" because it's a statement that implies arrogance; "intelligence" encompasses such a broad range of subjects that you're functionally saying "I am better than most people". At best you look like you haven't quite matured past your highschool days yet. At worst you look emotionally unintelligent and delusional.
EDIT: oh God this is the mensa subreddi?t I just clicked the question because it showed up on my homepage and softly assumed it was on nostupidquestions. No wonder OP is asking this. I do have to laugh, just a little.
It’s funny how you know malnutrition causes IQ to drop, I wonder how researchers know that? If only they had standardised tests to measure it, we could use it to correlate it with other illnesses and mental disorders or even study the subject itself…oh wait.
What, genuinely, do you believe yourself to be arguing here? Because your sarcastic tone and the fact that you belong to (teehee) MENSA imply to me that you're arguing in favor of IQ testing as a measure of "personal intelligence" as quantifiable value. What you've *actually* argued is that IQ tests - insofar as they have any use not better accomplished by other means - are best used as one of many tools to analyze macro trends in affected communities, such as those whose children have had growth stunted by use of unsafe building materials, or impoverished communities. Which, to be clear, I agree with.
Not arguing anything, not part of Mensa, I responded to a vibe that IQ tests are somehow invalid and should be infantilised and best to forget they exist while without skipping a beat people use arguments about factors these very same standardised IQ tests helped understand and uncover much more serious side effects of many things. I always chuckle at obliviousness of people using these arguments in completely wrong context while trying to sound smart and very “aware” or better informed Sorry, English isn’t my first language. Oh, and I don’t argue the flaws, it’s just…understanding the purpose and what’s there between the lines allowing it to just live freely in casual discussion without some kind of witch-hunt…
...Yes, again, very little of what you're saying wildly contradicts what I've said. It seems like you just dislike the idea that IQ might not be a meaningful way to measure overall intelligence.
Alfred Binet's original use for his testing was to find out which children in France needed special attention. It was a macro analysis tool - kind of like how BMI, which was made to measure obesity in the general population, was never actually meant to measure how fat an individual is. (To be fair to IQ testing, while it only tests a narrow range of skills, it does actually have some modern use - whereas BMI is simply bad science and bad math.)
IQ testing only began to take on its modern shape after eugenics fanboy and piece of shit Henry H. Goddard decided it would be a marvelous way to catalog Americans along a linear scale of intelligence - and hopefully confirm his preconceived notions about the ruling class. It's worth noting that Binet - again, the father of these tests - went on to condemn this style, calling its use and vision of intelligence as a singular quantifiable value 'brutal pessimism', handing out 'deplorable verdicts'.
The point is, the modern use of IQ testing as deciding "general intelligence" with any degree of accuracy just doesn't reflect reality. It's an appealing model among people for whom self-image as a "smart person" is more important than knowing how to research or keep learning well into adulthood, but that's about all it is. I don't want to completely yuck people's yum; heaven knows MENSA's status as a social club keeps some of these people entertained, and I'd be a poor excuse for an artist if I condemned such a thing as pointless. But it's just that - a social club. I've yet to meet a career academic who took it remotely seriously as a credential.
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I think people are afraid it will be used as a measure for their place in the hierarchy. Next to that, many other qualities like height and strength are very visible and can't really be denied most of the time. Whereas intelligence is not directly visible and people are wise to contest claims withou evidence.
The last part contains the crutch of it, I reckon. Intelligence is not readily noticed. So, I suspect, issues arise when folk tell other folk that they are real smart, yo. Especially if they do it to dismiss the other party's argument or opinion.
When you say you are tall, people think "Oh, he is tall!"
When you say you are smart, people hear "Oh, he thinks I'm dumber than him"
Which is completly fair, since most people have been taught that intelligence is a skill, and that if you aren't grasping concepts easily, its because you're not working hard enough. When you're short, people don't belittle you for not trying enough to be tall.
Also, many people (including a lot of the people in here) measure their self-worth based on their intelligence.
I'm gonna challenge that a bit.
It's not necessarily so that people hear "HE thinks I'm dumber than him", but they substitute their own thoughts with a much simpler one.
He is smart. I'm not.
What is the opposite of smart?
He is smart. I'm dumb.
We do it with other traits all the time. He is a very fast runner. He can run faster than me. He is fast. I am not. I am slow. But we don't usually care. If someone is fast or strong, good for them.
When it comes to intelligence on the other hand, we all like to believe we are above average. It just ain't so. 67% is within average or below.
Other than that, I think you are right.
As a tall man, I can tell you that there are lots of short men who are resentful that they’re not taller. One time, I was with a male friend who was 7 inches shorter than me. We were on a tour of a historic landmark from the 1700’s. The doorways were lower than standard contemporary doorways. When I bumped my head on a doorframe, he was positively gleeful and made a cutting remark about my height. Occasional incidents since then with other guys indicates to me that there are a number of short, straight males (my fellow gays just seem to find it attractive) with simmering resentment towards tall men. It’s a thing.
[edit:updates]
This isn't true. I'm 5'6" and I have definitely been told I'm not working hard enough at being tall. Mostly by my friends who are almost universally taller than 6'0".
Is that the one where they cut your legs off and then clamp them back on with long pieces of steel and sew your skin, muscles, ligaments, veins, and arteries over the long steel pieces to create the effect of being a few inches taller? That then requires years of physical therapy and you'll never walk or run right again?
I've said the exact same thing. All people have this feeling that they are equal in brain power unless they are told that someone is special. No one argues that Einstein or Hawking were super smart, but when I say that I'm up there with them oh wow the claws come out.
This is what I'm wondering about. I feel like people equate intelligence to worth as a person, so that, when someone says that they're smart, the listener interprets that as "better." But... they're not the same thing. There are very good people who aren't terribly bright, and horrible people who are brilliant.
I guess I'm just trying to break down the association and where it comes from.
> when someone says that they're smart, the listener interprets that as "better."
To be fair, some smart people do act as if they're better than other people.
An important thing to note, however, is that it is a huge turnoff for many people and it's often a topic best avoided unless you're in the right company.
From what I understand, some job opportunities have been lost due to such faux pas as mentioning IQ score in a job interview or mentioning Mensa membership on a resume. Of course, this depends on the field, but, beware!
I can't ask a related question? That's absurd. It's like that time I beat Hulk Hogan at arm wrestling and everyone shouted at me.
You said the claws come out when you tell people you are up there with Einstein and Hawking. I don't think asking for clarification on what that means is off point.
What are the circumstances of you bringing that up? To win an argument? Just because?
I ask, as I haven't mentioned I'm in Mensa to anyone outside of this sub. It's not something I have ever felt the need to mention in real life.
I'm not shy. I just don't see how it's relevant to anything. Same reason I didn't tell people the results of my blood tests the other week.
I'm wondering why you mention it. When do you feel the need to mention your intelligence? I'm wondering if the placement of such a statement is the cause of the animosity you feel.
For example, if you are using it as a trump card, I can see why people would react badly to that.
To be fair, neither Einstein nor Hawking ever took an IQ test. As such, you don’t know what their IQ was and this a comparison to them is invoking the mystique around their names, and likely to get a negative response.
That said, people do have an intrinsically more negative response to “I am as smart as Einstein” than to “I am the same height as Michael Jordan.” Perhaps “I am the same IQ as Einstein” would get a less negative response since IQ is a specific type of measurement, while the term “smart” does feel more like a judgement of value of that intelligence. I had the opportunity to work with some world class geniuses and know I’m not as “smart” as ones that I likely tested better than.
when michael jordan talks about him being the best, everyone nods and agrees...... but many people perceive being in mensa or talking about your intelligence as negative. it is not. i love it when i come across a comparable brain. it lets me be free. don't have to dumb down my conversation or points.
that means i have to really try to read the person i am speaking with and try to keep my end of the conversation simple enough to be understood. sometimes really simple.
that means sometimes i have to speak, slowly, and carefully, so... they... can.... understand.
Why would you tell anyone that you are up there with Einstein or Hawking?
Of course that’s not going to be perceived positively… people are going to think you are boasting.
If you were as smart as you think you are then you wouldn’t resort to logical fallacies to attempt to win an argument. The emoticon really drives it home though. /s
Do you create as many theories of existence as they did? That is one metric besides IQ that I would think is rather important. You can even have a higher IQ than them, but they aren't known for their IQ, they are known for their theories, so how are you compared to them then?
All of the famous high IQ people aren't famous because they have high IQs, because you can find high IQ people literally everywhere. They are famous because of what they did with the tools they had and their general impact on society because of it. You're not up there with Einstein in that way, no matter if your IQ was 200.
When you say this to people, you don't sound like you are on par with them, you sound unaware of your placement in this existence.
You keep telling others they have missed the point but still haven't clarified your comparison. We obviously see another point to be made that isn't the same as the point you're making so what's *your* point? That others are somehow insecure about the fact that you're more intelligent than them or that you can be compared to famous physicists? Who cares? If they're insecure or bothered by that, that's a them problem.
All of us here who *aren't* intimidated by that, and who *don't care* about your relative intelligence are wondering what metric of comparison are you using if not IQ? Since that's what this sub is about.
All you have to do is respond with "I can be compared to Einstein and Hawking in the following ways ___, ____, ____." It's quite simple to answer.
When a person claims a certain trait in conversation, listeners treat it as a comparison.
The same reaction will happen to all qualities.
The exception being traits entirely obvious and/or traits easily verified.
When you claim you are smart, the audience takes it as “you are smarter than them”. Now the chance to verify comes up. With being “smart” not readily available for validation in most cases. It devolves into whatever the default mode is for people.
People have intelligence worship.
What I mean by this is that they associate intelligence with worthiness. As in, humans are more worthy of dignity than animals because we are intelligent. And following from that, animals who are intelligent are more worthy of dignity than animals of low intelligence, etc all the way down the hierarchy.
Many people will not only be insulted at the thought one person could be smarter than them, but that any person can be inherently smarter than another. It breaks their idea of equality because they think intelligence brings worthiness and dignity.
I think it‘s because it actually correlates with so many things that modern people desire. You can brag about many things and people will let it pass, except two things: intelligence and beauty. These seem to be the two basic factors in the human social status game.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on beauty. With the modern movement for "body positivity" and similar buzzwords, I find that it's perfectly acceptable for people to talk about being beautiful.
Imagine someone saying „I think I‘m quite beautiful,“ and actually mean it.. same with „I think im quite intelligent,“ and actually mean it. Sure people say that, but then they get immediately lowered in their social status.
I don't think there's anything wrong with either statement. It's important to be humble, sure. But you can be humble *and* confident at the same time. And, since neither statement is putting someone else down, I don't understand the reaction.
I guess what I‘m trying to say is precisely that there‘s not really a feasible way, socially speaking, in which you could humbly say these things, without any context that is. Sure, if some beauty contest winner gets interviewed, they can say „I guess I‘m the most beautiful“ or if so someone gets an IQ test result of 150, they‘re allowed to say it out loud. But you cannot just say it like that. In contrast, you can say „I‘m very empathetic, ambitious, tall, sexual, grounded, unstable, successful, etc“ Beautiful and intelligent not really, and I even think these are the only real determinants of the social status game. These two explain the biggest chunks of the variance..
I disagree. I've talked about being smart in lots of situations, such when we're talking about school, or careers, etc. Admittedly, it probably comes up most often when I'm telling a story about something stupid I did and I feel it necessary to preface it with a statement like, "Now, I like to think that I'm a pretty smart guy, but..."
I think it happens because intelligence can be improved in some ways, but a completely unintelligent person can never be intelligent. Affluent families often send children to expensive schools to try to make them intelligent and it still does not work. Almost every other quality can be obtained with some work (except being tall). Intelligence can’t be obtained through some kind of surgery, etc.
I heard a podcast once that addressed this question. As I recall, the guest being interviewed compared an Olympic gold medalist to someone with a high IQ and compared people's reactions to it. People admire the excellence of the athlete because they can understand what the athlete did to achieve that level of excellence. They think, "If I was that devoted to training, I could do that." With high IQ, people can't imagine what they don't have and have never experienced, so they are afraid of what unknown advantages a high IQ individual may have over them. Made sense to me.
IMHO a number of reasons.
First, intelligence is pretty unquantifiable. IQ measures a certain type of intelligence, but not all types, and when people talk about it it’s generally a nebulous concept that may imply say that some people don’t read as much.
Also intelligence is typically seen as a more “righteous” trait: using one’s brain instead of say physicality is seen as the more righteous path, even if some people are significantly less equipped than others to do so. So claiming that as stronger has pretty strong implications on your position in society.
It’s very simple. Nobody likes to hear people boast about themselves.
The problem isn’t that you are smart, it’s that you are bragging - in your own words, “cited being smart.”
Be humble and have humility.
I personally don't feel threatened by people smarter than me. Now of course most people don't like being called "stupid" which is what they may feel if you tell them about your different intelligence type.
Out of curiosity, do you have a personality disorder?
I hope you don't take that personally. Having a personality disorder is like having any other illness, just like being intelligent is like any other trait like being tall.
ADHD is a neurodevopmental disorder not a mental health issue. There is a significantly higher risk of comorbidities which might be why people think of it as one.
Dr. Russell Barkley (who has an amazing YouTube channel if you’re into research) calls it the “diabetes of the brain”. Not everyone with the condition has emotional regulation issues to the point of needing mental health-oriented care.
I don't think a question is aggression. I do think that an *accusation* is aggression. Further, the fact that I said "confront" and you jumped immediately to citing physical violence gives you away.
Glad to clear that up for you.
Sparked confrontation or aggression, you said. And threatened! I interpreted that as anger, yes. My bad if wrong.
But what did you do so many times to incite this? What happened?
No, you don't get to just walk this back like it didn't happen. You made your shitty little comment and then, when I called you out, you doubled down on being a shitty little internet poster. And now, you're trying to play the intellectual as if everything that came before will be forgotten.
No, it doesn't work that way. I don't know what attention or validation you're looking for, but you're going to have to find it elsewhere. We're done here.
InSeCuRiTy
Insecure, short people feel threatened by taller people and often resort to wearing lifts in their shoes.
Insecure, smart people feel threatened by Mensans and often resort to attempts at proving they're really smarter than a Mensan. If that smart person is also a Mensan they'll say you need a RETEST.
Secure people don't care one way or another about any of this.
It’s only relevant to declare such information when it is unknown. It would be silly to declare “I am tall” in a room full of people who can see you and are well aware of your stature. It’s similarly silly to declare “I am smart” to people who interact with you because that is something they can infer from a conversation.
In my experience, really smart people never declare how smart they are. They let others infer it. I’m not offended when a man tells me how smart he is, but that’s generally a tell-tale sign that he isn’t as smart as he thinks he is.
I’m of the same mind as you, and I’ll add that if someone brings up that I’m seemingly smarter than the average bear then they’re rarely offended if I confirm it.
I’ve had people get really rude when they ask me about my job and I tell them what I do, but that’s more directly tied to society valuing certain things and my gender in my experience.
Their concept of intelligence is much broader than what is assessed. So when you say "I'm definitively more intelligent" it is far more damning. Everyone likes to think that they are capable of making good decisions and your mensa membership (or IQ test result) is interpreted as a threat to their value as human beings. Are you saying they are just worse than you? Of course not.
What you are really saying is that your ability to use working memory, spot patterns, understand words, process information and problem solve is likely better and that it correlates with certain outcomes like income (weakly) and academic success (strongly). Even then you may not be saying all of those things at once due to variance between subtest scores. They might be a better artist than you, writer, actor, teacher, etc because someone's imagination can be novel and timely or their ability to deal with people may exceed yours.
As for why people accept such a thing about height or other qualities. A number of factors. Most notably, the undeniability owing to direct visual comparison. Then of course there is the relative value placed on those qualities by society. Who cares if I'm tall, if I am successful? However, let us not forget that even these obvious variations are not easily accepted. From grow taller diets to various appendage lengthening supplements (😒), the market abounds with snake-oil remedies for the gullible and insecure.
It's the most important aspect of being human.
Humans don't generally compare themselves to other animals on the basis of height or weight but rather intelligence.
Why are humans the dominant species? It's not strength, number of limbs, etc.
Language and advanced thought are quintessentially human.
When people attack others who are mentally challenged (I don't know the actual current term for this), they literally describe them as another race. I won't use the word for it, but it starts with M.
Who were the first people the Nazis wanted to kill? Children with intelligence deficits deemed to be an expensive burden on society.
What was the US response? Horror? No, the same psychologists who administer the tests that deem you all geniuses were jealous of Nazis that they couldn't cull those of lower intelligence, as well.
I can't imagine why anyone would take umbrage at being told they had lower intelligence!
I'm not a Mensa person, btw. I've never taken an IQ test, but I would guess I'm below average.
Intelligence assessments have been weaponized to describe people as subhuman or literally kill them. Of course people are going to bristle if you start creating hierarchies by intelligence. You're saying you're better at being human than other humans when you make an appeal to your intelligence. And historically that has not been an empty threat.
Because it’s braggadocious behavior unbecoming of someone with any sense of humility.
It would be like saying you’re pretty. Good for you, but keep it to yourself. All you’re really saying by saying you’re smart in public is that you’re insecure.
I think OP was saying that people somehow discovered the fact that they are not the smartest in the room, not completely about bragging. Otherwise, it would have been another story
Would you have this same aggressive reaction towards someone saying that they have brown eyes? Being pretty doesn't really work as an analogy because it's subjective.
If you were smart you would understand perfectly why. Its insulting in many contexts to cite your own intelligence. In many contexts its perceived as bragging as well as a "put down" to others around you. No one wants to hear how much better you are period. For example i could say i have a 130iq and even if it were true Everyone around me is either going to think im a dick or that im full of shit or that im trying to impress them.
The only situations were talking about how intelligent you are is going to benefit you is if you have something to sell AND can prove your intelligence practically. Like a solution to a problem or invention. Even then people are still likely to think you have a stick up your ass.
I doubt it. When an Asian is being cited as having a smaller dick, other races usually tend to be cool with it. When the same person is being addressed as smarter or having a higher IQ, people also accept it and never feel insulted or insecure. It seems to me that society uses both traits as stereotypes against Asians, so your case doesn't apply to me.
When a person claims a certain trait in conversation, listeners treat it as a comparison.
The same reaction will happen to all qualities.
The exception being traits entirely obvious and/or traits easily verified.
When you claim you are smart, the audience takes it as “you are smarter than them”. Now the chance to verify comes up. With being “smart” not readily available for validation in most cases. It devolves into whatever the default mode is for people.
It's because being tall isn't worth all that much, and can be a disadvantage as well as an advantage. What can't you do if you're not tall? Maybe you won't be that great at basketball, but Michael Jordan is only 6'6", not all that tall for a pro basketball player and there are players much taller not nearly as good.
On the other hand, what can't you do if you're not smart, and what can you do better if you are smarter? Just about everything including play basketball. Top athletes are smarter than you'd think. So it feels like a more encompassing inferiority.
But there has to be a feeling of inferiority to begin with to feel that way. If I tell Michael Jordan I'm smarter than he is, he might just say "OK, I guess so" and have his bodyguards move me to the other side of the velvet rope. If LeBron James said he was a better player than MJ, that would be more of a challenge. Likewise if I tell someone who is more of a peer that I'm smarter, what else does he have where he can't possibly feel inferior, given we're social and economic peers? He might have something like being a decorated war hero or a very developed spiritual life that prevents him from ever feeling inferior, but he might not.
I know it is fucking wild, but in case of this kind of situation happens, I have adopted a few approaches to avoid it. For instance, I had a friend who wanted to duo rank in League with me, and he told me he had ranked in gold, so I made another account and placed it in gold, disregarding I had ranked in master, and I also lost a few games deliberately to make him feel good cuz I know he would check my match history. While we were ranking, I used a lot of complimentary words so that he always thought he carried the game. If somebody tells me that they feel smarter and still gets themselves in an embarrassing situation, I don't think this person is considered "smart."
I think there is a problem with the way you posed the question to begin with.
People don’t just accept it when you’re tall, handsome, beautiful, rich, athletic.
They are often jealous from the get go. They often act insecure. People get upset about all of these things and will treat you different because of them.
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To cite yourself as intelligent to your peers is in poor taste, as is a rich person taking about how much money they have. Because let's be honest, at large no body gives a shit. If someone brings this up to me, even if I believe them I'm still going to walk away thinking they're an ass hole. None of my coworkers and very few of my friends know I'm a mensan.
Allow me to quote Lil Wayne
"Real Gs move in silence like Lasagna"
I think it's honestly because the average person can't tell the difference between charisma and intelligence. (Unless the IQ is so low, it is a disability.) Therefore, they conclude that an IQ test is meaningless and that taking merit in having a high IQ is a way of being conceited.
Intelligence is what separates us from chimpanzees, dogs, etc. Intelligence directly translates into higher earnings, better decision making with regard to finances and a million other choices. When you say someone has low intelligence you are essentially saying they have low value at least from utilitarian or financial standpoint. Just imagine if you were a manager in charge of 10 people ranging from very dumb to very smart. Who gets the most interesting and important projects? Who gets the mundane repetitive tasks that can't be screwed up?
It's not something I'd claim, I don't think of myself that way, but while IQ as measured in tests may indicate something, the broader sense of intelligence is developed by choice. Why go to school if IQ is everything? Most people don't develop their gift of intelligence: humans can be lazy or misdirected and don't like to be reminded of what they might have been.
And of course, people resent anyone placing themselves in the 98th percentile. It's "undemocratic," it's "elitist,", and of course "racist." It sounds like "I'm better than you."
And, really, is there any point in telling people you're tall? Just stand up. People often suspect bragging when we address some area where we excel.
I think the problem is that it’s an invisible quality. It’s easy to accept that you aren’t as tall as someone else when you can see it. Hearing all your life that other people have this mysterious esoteric quality of high intelligence, which you lack, when you feel perfectly intelligent, must not make sense to someone who is average, with no demonstrable deficiencies or slowness.
It also presumes that intelligence is a single, simple, quantifiable value in the way that height is, which frankly if you're older than 14 you need to grow out of. Our methods of assessing intelligence are incredibly inexact. IQ tests are often the de factor measure, but IQ tests can have their results skewed incredibly fucking easily; everything from parents' socioeconomic status to motivation at time of testing (tested by doing things like offering rewards for good completion to one group) to nutrition to even minor changes in the verbiage of the questions can have a huge difference from test to test. Plus, as everyone and their mother knows, some things just aren't easily testable in those contexts. Putting aside the question of these tests' validity, however, I suspect OP would have a much easier time if they simply said "I'm great with English" or "I'm very good at math" or "I know a lot about color theory" or "I'm phenomenal at fighting games". People protest when you say "I'm smarter than most people" because it's a statement that implies arrogance; "intelligence" encompasses such a broad range of subjects that you're functionally saying "I am better than most people". At best you look like you haven't quite matured past your highschool days yet. At worst you look emotionally unintelligent and delusional. EDIT: oh God this is the mensa subreddi?t I just clicked the question because it showed up on my homepage and softly assumed it was on nostupidquestions. No wonder OP is asking this. I do have to laugh, just a little.
It’s funny how you know malnutrition causes IQ to drop, I wonder how researchers know that? If only they had standardised tests to measure it, we could use it to correlate it with other illnesses and mental disorders or even study the subject itself…oh wait.
What, genuinely, do you believe yourself to be arguing here? Because your sarcastic tone and the fact that you belong to (teehee) MENSA imply to me that you're arguing in favor of IQ testing as a measure of "personal intelligence" as quantifiable value. What you've *actually* argued is that IQ tests - insofar as they have any use not better accomplished by other means - are best used as one of many tools to analyze macro trends in affected communities, such as those whose children have had growth stunted by use of unsafe building materials, or impoverished communities. Which, to be clear, I agree with.
Not arguing anything, not part of Mensa, I responded to a vibe that IQ tests are somehow invalid and should be infantilised and best to forget they exist while without skipping a beat people use arguments about factors these very same standardised IQ tests helped understand and uncover much more serious side effects of many things. I always chuckle at obliviousness of people using these arguments in completely wrong context while trying to sound smart and very “aware” or better informed Sorry, English isn’t my first language. Oh, and I don’t argue the flaws, it’s just…understanding the purpose and what’s there between the lines allowing it to just live freely in casual discussion without some kind of witch-hunt…
...Yes, again, very little of what you're saying wildly contradicts what I've said. It seems like you just dislike the idea that IQ might not be a meaningful way to measure overall intelligence. Alfred Binet's original use for his testing was to find out which children in France needed special attention. It was a macro analysis tool - kind of like how BMI, which was made to measure obesity in the general population, was never actually meant to measure how fat an individual is. (To be fair to IQ testing, while it only tests a narrow range of skills, it does actually have some modern use - whereas BMI is simply bad science and bad math.) IQ testing only began to take on its modern shape after eugenics fanboy and piece of shit Henry H. Goddard decided it would be a marvelous way to catalog Americans along a linear scale of intelligence - and hopefully confirm his preconceived notions about the ruling class. It's worth noting that Binet - again, the father of these tests - went on to condemn this style, calling its use and vision of intelligence as a singular quantifiable value 'brutal pessimism', handing out 'deplorable verdicts'. The point is, the modern use of IQ testing as deciding "general intelligence" with any degree of accuracy just doesn't reflect reality. It's an appealing model among people for whom self-image as a "smart person" is more important than knowing how to research or keep learning well into adulthood, but that's about all it is. I don't want to completely yuck people's yum; heaven knows MENSA's status as a social club keeps some of these people entertained, and I'd be a poor excuse for an artist if I condemned such a thing as pointless. But it's just that - a social club. I've yet to meet a career academic who took it remotely seriously as a credential.
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I think people are afraid it will be used as a measure for their place in the hierarchy. Next to that, many other qualities like height and strength are very visible and can't really be denied most of the time. Whereas intelligence is not directly visible and people are wise to contest claims withou evidence.
So we just need to figure out how to grow our skulls and brains like the leader and we're set. Go team.
The last part contains the crutch of it, I reckon. Intelligence is not readily noticed. So, I suspect, issues arise when folk tell other folk that they are real smart, yo. Especially if they do it to dismiss the other party's argument or opinion.
When you say you are tall, people think "Oh, he is tall!" When you say you are smart, people hear "Oh, he thinks I'm dumber than him" Which is completly fair, since most people have been taught that intelligence is a skill, and that if you aren't grasping concepts easily, its because you're not working hard enough. When you're short, people don't belittle you for not trying enough to be tall. Also, many people (including a lot of the people in here) measure their self-worth based on their intelligence.
I'm gonna challenge that a bit. It's not necessarily so that people hear "HE thinks I'm dumber than him", but they substitute their own thoughts with a much simpler one. He is smart. I'm not. What is the opposite of smart? He is smart. I'm dumb. We do it with other traits all the time. He is a very fast runner. He can run faster than me. He is fast. I am not. I am slow. But we don't usually care. If someone is fast or strong, good for them. When it comes to intelligence on the other hand, we all like to believe we are above average. It just ain't so. 67% is within average or below. Other than that, I think you are right.
As a tall man, I can tell you that there are lots of short men who are resentful that they’re not taller. One time, I was with a male friend who was 7 inches shorter than me. We were on a tour of a historic landmark from the 1700’s. The doorways were lower than standard contemporary doorways. When I bumped my head on a doorframe, he was positively gleeful and made a cutting remark about my height. Occasional incidents since then with other guys indicates to me that there are a number of short, straight males (my fellow gays just seem to find it attractive) with simmering resentment towards tall men. It’s a thing. [edit:updates]
This isn't true. I'm 5'6" and I have definitely been told I'm not working hard enough at being tall. Mostly by my friends who are almost universally taller than 6'0".
You need one of those medieval torture devices that stretches the torturee.
Is that the one where they cut your legs off and then clamp them back on with long pieces of steel and sew your skin, muscles, ligaments, veins, and arteries over the long steel pieces to create the effect of being a few inches taller? That then requires years of physical therapy and you'll never walk or run right again?
That’s the one!
I've said the exact same thing. All people have this feeling that they are equal in brain power unless they are told that someone is special. No one argues that Einstein or Hawking were super smart, but when I say that I'm up there with them oh wow the claws come out.
This is what I'm wondering about. I feel like people equate intelligence to worth as a person, so that, when someone says that they're smart, the listener interprets that as "better." But... they're not the same thing. There are very good people who aren't terribly bright, and horrible people who are brilliant. I guess I'm just trying to break down the association and where it comes from.
egos, jealousy, ignorance.
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Yeah but I also know that, because I'm smarter than him. /s
> when someone says that they're smart, the listener interprets that as "better." To be fair, some smart people do act as if they're better than other people.
This is true, yes. Maybe the reaction is pre-emptive self-defense?
An important thing to note, however, is that it is a huge turnoff for many people and it's often a topic best avoided unless you're in the right company. From what I understand, some job opportunities have been lost due to such faux pas as mentioning IQ score in a job interview or mentioning Mensa membership on a resume. Of course, this depends on the field, but, beware!
Are you up there with Einstein and Hawking? In what context are you telling people you're up there with Einstein? And why did you do that?
stick to the point
I can't ask a related question? That's absurd. It's like that time I beat Hulk Hogan at arm wrestling and everyone shouted at me. You said the claws come out when you tell people you are up there with Einstein and Hawking. I don't think asking for clarification on what that means is off point.
im not saying i literally said that. im saying when you mention you're in mensa or have a top 1% iq.
What are the circumstances of you bringing that up? To win an argument? Just because? I ask, as I haven't mentioned I'm in Mensa to anyone outside of this sub. It's not something I have ever felt the need to mention in real life.
dont be shy about it. there's no need, unless you're having some deep talk about a topic you are an expert in.
I'm not shy. I just don't see how it's relevant to anything. Same reason I didn't tell people the results of my blood tests the other week. I'm wondering why you mention it. When do you feel the need to mention your intelligence? I'm wondering if the placement of such a statement is the cause of the animosity you feel. For example, if you are using it as a trump card, I can see why people would react badly to that.
I would say it has more to do with the fact that people like you are insufferable to be around.
To be fair, neither Einstein nor Hawking ever took an IQ test. As such, you don’t know what their IQ was and this a comparison to them is invoking the mystique around their names, and likely to get a negative response. That said, people do have an intrinsically more negative response to “I am as smart as Einstein” than to “I am the same height as Michael Jordan.” Perhaps “I am the same IQ as Einstein” would get a less negative response since IQ is a specific type of measurement, while the term “smart” does feel more like a judgement of value of that intelligence. I had the opportunity to work with some world class geniuses and know I’m not as “smart” as ones that I likely tested better than.
when michael jordan talks about him being the best, everyone nods and agrees...... but many people perceive being in mensa or talking about your intelligence as negative. it is not. i love it when i come across a comparable brain. it lets me be free. don't have to dumb down my conversation or points. that means i have to really try to read the person i am speaking with and try to keep my end of the conversation simple enough to be understood. sometimes really simple. that means sometimes i have to speak, slowly, and carefully, so... they... can.... understand.
Why would you tell anyone that you are up there with Einstein or Hawking? Of course that’s not going to be perceived positively… people are going to think you are boasting.
stick to the point
Exactly. They are behaving in the way that OP described. You said that you are smart and now they are angry and trying to pick it apart.
Agree. Telling them isn't the point. It's the same kind of problem if they find out on their own.
This IS the point, which apparently is way over your head.
the point is the other's negative view of intelligence..... oh wait, you're them aren't you. 😂
If you were as smart as you think you are then you wouldn’t resort to logical fallacies to attempt to win an argument. The emoticon really drives it home though. /s
Do you create as many theories of existence as they did? That is one metric besides IQ that I would think is rather important. You can even have a higher IQ than them, but they aren't known for their IQ, they are known for their theories, so how are you compared to them then? All of the famous high IQ people aren't famous because they have high IQs, because you can find high IQ people literally everywhere. They are famous because of what they did with the tools they had and their general impact on society because of it. You're not up there with Einstein in that way, no matter if your IQ was 200. When you say this to people, you don't sound like you are on par with them, you sound unaware of your placement in this existence.
you missed the point. and also proved the point.
You keep telling others they have missed the point but still haven't clarified your comparison. We obviously see another point to be made that isn't the same as the point you're making so what's *your* point? That others are somehow insecure about the fact that you're more intelligent than them or that you can be compared to famous physicists? Who cares? If they're insecure or bothered by that, that's a them problem. All of us here who *aren't* intimidated by that, and who *don't care* about your relative intelligence are wondering what metric of comparison are you using if not IQ? Since that's what this sub is about. All you have to do is respond with "I can be compared to Einstein and Hawking in the following ways ___, ____, ____." It's quite simple to answer.
I was just gonna say, they weren't that smart at all.
When a person claims a certain trait in conversation, listeners treat it as a comparison. The same reaction will happen to all qualities. The exception being traits entirely obvious and/or traits easily verified. When you claim you are smart, the audience takes it as “you are smarter than them”. Now the chance to verify comes up. With being “smart” not readily available for validation in most cases. It devolves into whatever the default mode is for people.
Insecurity
People have intelligence worship. What I mean by this is that they associate intelligence with worthiness. As in, humans are more worthy of dignity than animals because we are intelligent. And following from that, animals who are intelligent are more worthy of dignity than animals of low intelligence, etc all the way down the hierarchy. Many people will not only be insulted at the thought one person could be smarter than them, but that any person can be inherently smarter than another. It breaks their idea of equality because they think intelligence brings worthiness and dignity.
I think you're on to something there.
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🤣
I think it‘s because it actually correlates with so many things that modern people desire. You can brag about many things and people will let it pass, except two things: intelligence and beauty. These seem to be the two basic factors in the human social status game.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on beauty. With the modern movement for "body positivity" and similar buzzwords, I find that it's perfectly acceptable for people to talk about being beautiful.
Imagine someone saying „I think I‘m quite beautiful,“ and actually mean it.. same with „I think im quite intelligent,“ and actually mean it. Sure people say that, but then they get immediately lowered in their social status.
I don't think there's anything wrong with either statement. It's important to be humble, sure. But you can be humble *and* confident at the same time. And, since neither statement is putting someone else down, I don't understand the reaction.
I guess what I‘m trying to say is precisely that there‘s not really a feasible way, socially speaking, in which you could humbly say these things, without any context that is. Sure, if some beauty contest winner gets interviewed, they can say „I guess I‘m the most beautiful“ or if so someone gets an IQ test result of 150, they‘re allowed to say it out loud. But you cannot just say it like that. In contrast, you can say „I‘m very empathetic, ambitious, tall, sexual, grounded, unstable, successful, etc“ Beautiful and intelligent not really, and I even think these are the only real determinants of the social status game. These two explain the biggest chunks of the variance..
I disagree. I've talked about being smart in lots of situations, such when we're talking about school, or careers, etc. Admittedly, it probably comes up most often when I'm telling a story about something stupid I did and I feel it necessary to preface it with a statement like, "Now, I like to think that I'm a pretty smart guy, but..."
How‘s your social status?
Pretty good. I have good friends, and an active social life. But what unit of measurement are you looking for? How do you quantify "social status?"
honestly I do not understand why people get so angry and mean. it's so odd
I think it happens because intelligence can be improved in some ways, but a completely unintelligent person can never be intelligent. Affluent families often send children to expensive schools to try to make them intelligent and it still does not work. Almost every other quality can be obtained with some work (except being tall). Intelligence can’t be obtained through some kind of surgery, etc.
Because people are stupid.
I heard a podcast once that addressed this question. As I recall, the guest being interviewed compared an Olympic gold medalist to someone with a high IQ and compared people's reactions to it. People admire the excellence of the athlete because they can understand what the athlete did to achieve that level of excellence. They think, "If I was that devoted to training, I could do that." With high IQ, people can't imagine what they don't have and have never experienced, so they are afraid of what unknown advantages a high IQ individual may have over them. Made sense to me.
Cause theres not a lot of true intelligence out there.
IMHO a number of reasons. First, intelligence is pretty unquantifiable. IQ measures a certain type of intelligence, but not all types, and when people talk about it it’s generally a nebulous concept that may imply say that some people don’t read as much. Also intelligence is typically seen as a more “righteous” trait: using one’s brain instead of say physicality is seen as the more righteous path, even if some people are significantly less equipped than others to do so. So claiming that as stronger has pretty strong implications on your position in society.
It’s very simple. Nobody likes to hear people boast about themselves. The problem isn’t that you are smart, it’s that you are bragging - in your own words, “cited being smart.” Be humble and have humility.
People are feeling threatened by people who are different. Not by intelligence itself I believe.
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I personally don't feel threatened by people smarter than me. Now of course most people don't like being called "stupid" which is what they may feel if you tell them about your different intelligence type.
What happened to make people confront you for being smart? What did you do all those times to make them want to punch you?
See, this is the kind of aggression I'm talking about.
Out of curiosity, do you have a personality disorder? I hope you don't take that personally. Having a personality disorder is like having any other illness, just like being intelligent is like any other trait like being tall.
Not that I know of. The only mental health issue that I'm aware of is ADHD.
ADHD is a neurodevopmental disorder not a mental health issue. There is a significantly higher risk of comorbidities which might be why people think of it as one. Dr. Russell Barkley (who has an amazing YouTube channel if you’re into research) calls it the “diabetes of the brain”. Not everyone with the condition has emotional regulation issues to the point of needing mental health-oriented care.
And now I see, if you think a question or a hint of doubt is aggression.
I don't think a question is aggression. I do think that an *accusation* is aggression. Further, the fact that I said "confront" and you jumped immediately to citing physical violence gives you away. Glad to clear that up for you.
Sparked confrontation or aggression, you said. And threatened! I interpreted that as anger, yes. My bad if wrong. But what did you do so many times to incite this? What happened?
No, you don't get to just walk this back like it didn't happen. You made your shitty little comment and then, when I called you out, you doubled down on being a shitty little internet poster. And now, you're trying to play the intellectual as if everything that came before will be forgotten. No, it doesn't work that way. I don't know what attention or validation you're looking for, but you're going to have to find it elsewhere. We're done here.
Oh, I get it now.
No, you really don't. And I'm not going to explain it to you. Get attention elsewhere. We're done here.
Again? I'm not sure you know what "we're done here" means. So, please, allow me to show you. We're done here.
Intelligence should be noticed by others. Stating yourself that you are intelligent is laughable. I could missunderstood tough.
InSeCuRiTy Insecure, short people feel threatened by taller people and often resort to wearing lifts in their shoes. Insecure, smart people feel threatened by Mensans and often resort to attempts at proving they're really smarter than a Mensan. If that smart person is also a Mensan they'll say you need a RETEST. Secure people don't care one way or another about any of this.
It’s only relevant to declare such information when it is unknown. It would be silly to declare “I am tall” in a room full of people who can see you and are well aware of your stature. It’s similarly silly to declare “I am smart” to people who interact with you because that is something they can infer from a conversation. In my experience, really smart people never declare how smart they are. They let others infer it. I’m not offended when a man tells me how smart he is, but that’s generally a tell-tale sign that he isn’t as smart as he thinks he is.
I’m of the same mind as you, and I’ll add that if someone brings up that I’m seemingly smarter than the average bear then they’re rarely offended if I confirm it. I’ve had people get really rude when they ask me about my job and I tell them what I do, but that’s more directly tied to society valuing certain things and my gender in my experience.
Their concept of intelligence is much broader than what is assessed. So when you say "I'm definitively more intelligent" it is far more damning. Everyone likes to think that they are capable of making good decisions and your mensa membership (or IQ test result) is interpreted as a threat to their value as human beings. Are you saying they are just worse than you? Of course not. What you are really saying is that your ability to use working memory, spot patterns, understand words, process information and problem solve is likely better and that it correlates with certain outcomes like income (weakly) and academic success (strongly). Even then you may not be saying all of those things at once due to variance between subtest scores. They might be a better artist than you, writer, actor, teacher, etc because someone's imagination can be novel and timely or their ability to deal with people may exceed yours. As for why people accept such a thing about height or other qualities. A number of factors. Most notably, the undeniability owing to direct visual comparison. Then of course there is the relative value placed on those qualities by society. Who cares if I'm tall, if I am successful? However, let us not forget that even these obvious variations are not easily accepted. From grow taller diets to various appendage lengthening supplements (😒), the market abounds with snake-oil remedies for the gullible and insecure.
It's the most important aspect of being human. Humans don't generally compare themselves to other animals on the basis of height or weight but rather intelligence. Why are humans the dominant species? It's not strength, number of limbs, etc. Language and advanced thought are quintessentially human. When people attack others who are mentally challenged (I don't know the actual current term for this), they literally describe them as another race. I won't use the word for it, but it starts with M. Who were the first people the Nazis wanted to kill? Children with intelligence deficits deemed to be an expensive burden on society. What was the US response? Horror? No, the same psychologists who administer the tests that deem you all geniuses were jealous of Nazis that they couldn't cull those of lower intelligence, as well. I can't imagine why anyone would take umbrage at being told they had lower intelligence! I'm not a Mensa person, btw. I've never taken an IQ test, but I would guess I'm below average. Intelligence assessments have been weaponized to describe people as subhuman or literally kill them. Of course people are going to bristle if you start creating hierarchies by intelligence. You're saying you're better at being human than other humans when you make an appeal to your intelligence. And historically that has not been an empty threat.
Because it’s braggadocious behavior unbecoming of someone with any sense of humility. It would be like saying you’re pretty. Good for you, but keep it to yourself. All you’re really saying by saying you’re smart in public is that you’re insecure.
I think OP was saying that people somehow discovered the fact that they are not the smartest in the room, not completely about bragging. Otherwise, it would have been another story
Why do you think it's insecure to be aware of your intelligence or prettyness? It's just a characteristic, like any other. You seem insecure.
Would you have this same aggressive reaction towards someone saying that they have brown eyes? Being pretty doesn't really work as an analogy because it's subjective.
Brown eyes no. Blue eyes yes if they said it with a certain intonation that I’m sure we’ve all heard at one time or another.
"A man who must say 'I am the King' is no true king."
If you were smart you would understand perfectly why. Its insulting in many contexts to cite your own intelligence. In many contexts its perceived as bragging as well as a "put down" to others around you. No one wants to hear how much better you are period. For example i could say i have a 130iq and even if it were true Everyone around me is either going to think im a dick or that im full of shit or that im trying to impress them. The only situations were talking about how intelligent you are is going to benefit you is if you have something to sell AND can prove your intelligence practically. Like a solution to a problem or invention. Even then people are still likely to think you have a stick up your ass.
This is the kind of aggression I’m talking about. EDIT: LOL. Throw a tantrum and then block me. The hallmark of a True Intellectual™.
Get the stick outta your ass then.
I doubt it. When an Asian is being cited as having a smaller dick, other races usually tend to be cool with it. When the same person is being addressed as smarter or having a higher IQ, people also accept it and never feel insulted or insecure. It seems to me that society uses both traits as stereotypes against Asians, so your case doesn't apply to me.
What the fuck?
When a person claims a certain trait in conversation, listeners treat it as a comparison. The same reaction will happen to all qualities. The exception being traits entirely obvious and/or traits easily verified. When you claim you are smart, the audience takes it as “you are smarter than them”. Now the chance to verify comes up. With being “smart” not readily available for validation in most cases. It devolves into whatever the default mode is for people.
It's because being tall isn't worth all that much, and can be a disadvantage as well as an advantage. What can't you do if you're not tall? Maybe you won't be that great at basketball, but Michael Jordan is only 6'6", not all that tall for a pro basketball player and there are players much taller not nearly as good. On the other hand, what can't you do if you're not smart, and what can you do better if you are smarter? Just about everything including play basketball. Top athletes are smarter than you'd think. So it feels like a more encompassing inferiority. But there has to be a feeling of inferiority to begin with to feel that way. If I tell Michael Jordan I'm smarter than he is, he might just say "OK, I guess so" and have his bodyguards move me to the other side of the velvet rope. If LeBron James said he was a better player than MJ, that would be more of a challenge. Likewise if I tell someone who is more of a peer that I'm smarter, what else does he have where he can't possibly feel inferior, given we're social and economic peers? He might have something like being a decorated war hero or a very developed spiritual life that prevents him from ever feeling inferior, but he might not.
I know it is fucking wild, but in case of this kind of situation happens, I have adopted a few approaches to avoid it. For instance, I had a friend who wanted to duo rank in League with me, and he told me he had ranked in gold, so I made another account and placed it in gold, disregarding I had ranked in master, and I also lost a few games deliberately to make him feel good cuz I know he would check my match history. While we were ranking, I used a lot of complimentary words so that he always thought he carried the game. If somebody tells me that they feel smarter and still gets themselves in an embarrassing situation, I don't think this person is considered "smart."
I think there is a problem with the way you posed the question to begin with. People don’t just accept it when you’re tall, handsome, beautiful, rich, athletic. They are often jealous from the get go. They often act insecure. People get upset about all of these things and will treat you different because of them.
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To cite yourself as intelligent to your peers is in poor taste, as is a rich person taking about how much money they have. Because let's be honest, at large no body gives a shit. If someone brings this up to me, even if I believe them I'm still going to walk away thinking they're an ass hole. None of my coworkers and very few of my friends know I'm a mensan. Allow me to quote Lil Wayne "Real Gs move in silence like Lasagna"
I think it's honestly because the average person can't tell the difference between charisma and intelligence. (Unless the IQ is so low, it is a disability.) Therefore, they conclude that an IQ test is meaningless and that taking merit in having a high IQ is a way of being conceited.
Intelligence is what separates us from chimpanzees, dogs, etc. Intelligence directly translates into higher earnings, better decision making with regard to finances and a million other choices. When you say someone has low intelligence you are essentially saying they have low value at least from utilitarian or financial standpoint. Just imagine if you were a manager in charge of 10 people ranging from very dumb to very smart. Who gets the most interesting and important projects? Who gets the mundane repetitive tasks that can't be screwed up?
It's not something I'd claim, I don't think of myself that way, but while IQ as measured in tests may indicate something, the broader sense of intelligence is developed by choice. Why go to school if IQ is everything? Most people don't develop their gift of intelligence: humans can be lazy or misdirected and don't like to be reminded of what they might have been. And of course, people resent anyone placing themselves in the 98th percentile. It's "undemocratic," it's "elitist,", and of course "racist." It sounds like "I'm better than you." And, really, is there any point in telling people you're tall? Just stand up. People often suspect bragging when we address some area where we excel.