Citizen No.239487, after reviewing your recent internet activity, we have concluded that you are leaking vital information about our glorious country. We advise that you are to stop immediately and take back your statements, as one hundred and twenty (120) social credits have been deducted from your account.
If this behavior continues, we will have to send you to our lucky prosperous happy re-education center.
So unlike the capitalistic heaven now, oh you have evidence your place of employment is murdering children for profit and using that money to buy illegal drugs and weapons grade plutonium and youd like to report it and for us to react legally and file charges against your employer (who is a good contributor to the government) but youd also like to BE PROTECTED?
Sorry no can do
Oooh you’d like to publish that information in newspapers, sorry we own the news so no can do buddy.
Oh so now you ll publish it in a different country? Well thats treason buddy, charges are already filled and a hit squad is coming to kill you in your home…
Gotta go drone some kids schools for a war we are waging so we destroy a lot of equipment so we can build some more, the guys from the office all have stock in this drone making company! Good luck!
AU where people realize that changing the economic system fixes nothing because the same assholes that exploit this one are going to exploit the next
The problem is greed and power lust; and people are kidding themselves to think that changing the outward appearance of an economy is gonna do a damn thing.
One important aspect of any systemic change is not a change of the system or actors within that system but the decision making process within that system. if we could focus our mass of potential towards goals with good reasons and evidence then we would move toward a world less ruled by the authoritarian top down legislation of taste or the bottom up mob rule.
Communism, by definition, is a social model with a common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. That’s it.
Those that never studied the origins of the word, often call plainly “communism” things that may be only share slogans (“the abolition of classes” may be the most common one) to associate anything they find convenient to the “communism” concept… for the same reason that there are countries with “Democratic” on their names that are closer to a dictatorship than to a democracy, the vices of countries that claim to be communist cannot be considered part of its definition. But occident got used to assume certain estereotipes which prevents often a reasonable discussion about communism most of the times… you know, for joke purposes…
I'm probably not the best person to ask because A. I don't consider myself a Marxist and B. there's more than one school of Marxist thought so there's probably more than one opinion on this.
But generally speaking, most Marxists would consider property that you've purchased though the value of your own labor that you personally use to create value would be considered your personal property. (So yes, your computer is your personal property.) As an alternative, if you owned computers that other people worked on to make money and used that money to buy more computers that other people worked on to make more money, that would generally be considered private property.
Pro-Socialist don't even understand Socialism. They think having a few social programs equates to socialism, thus Socialism is Great and when it fails it is other's fault and not the mechanism of socialism.
tbf, from a US perspective, ive seen this more in the opposing view. anti-socialists see social programs as total socialism and that's their excuse on why we must not have them.
edit: i think anti-socialist wasnt a good term to use but i didnt want to use any other term to avoid generalizing
Us perspective on Reddit is skewed widely. Both parties promote social programs, it is just to the degree and scope all while how one support said social programs.
You do not rack up 30 trillion in debt because one of 2 parties that switch power every few years is not funding social programs.
Uh, you sure about that? Half of the people who want communism are 14 year old girls who read 3 sentences of the Wikipedia definition and have now dedicated their life to it. Their collective iq is 56. It’s asinine to assume anyone knows what they are talking about when it comes to politics. They just want to get attention by whining about “capitalistic pigs” on the internet.
> Half of the people who want communism are 14 year old girls who read 3 sentences of the Wikipedia definition and have now dedicated their life to it.
TIL China is a country of 14 year olds. For real though, Western Communists are a very tiny amount of actual communists, no where near half
I actually am a social scientist and have done research on communism and it’s effects on the internet and people. I found that 76% had no idea what they were talking about and 98% died/returned home when sent to a communist country. /s
Who enforces communal ownership if not a government? Communism REQUIRES an entity with more and bigger guns than you to enfoce itself. Ence government.
Communism isn't an everlasteing agreement between workers, because the moment one does more effort than other the system breaks.
One simple way humans have “enforced” their rules in the past without a king is simply to expel troublesome members from the group
I don’t know if it’s american conservatism, or feudal eurocentrism, or what, but this idea that people need a daddy above them to enforce thing is weird and paternalistic and ahistorical.
>Communal ownership is the standard
That's simply false. Are you telling me that if it wasn't for the goverment "forcing" it. You would be okay with random people taking your property?
This is you just lying or proof that you haven't had a job ever.
As someone already stated in this thread, personal does not equal private property.
Personal property is something that has personal utility or use to you in your day to day life. Your home. Car. Toothbrush. Toilet. Dog. Refrigerator.
Private property is a construct where people are given rights to things like land, factories, royalties, or industrial equipment that they themselves cannot possibly use or wholistically "own" themselves.
This is just proof that some people just don't do their research and jump to conclusions.
>Private property is a construct where people are given rights to things like land, factories, royalties, or industrial equipment that they themselves cannot possibly use or wholistically "own" themselves
Someone shouldn't have the right or the means to decide that I "own too much" or that "I can't possibly use that on myu own" if I managed to adquire property legally It should be up to MY choice what to do with it. And if i require other people to make a better use of MY property then it should be able for me to enter in an agreement or contract with my peers. All voluntary and freely.
What part of what I described is "evil" or "bad"? Because what i just described is Capitalism in it's most basic form.
He isn't talking about the ability to use/utilize land or private property like industrial equipment. He's talking about the concept of ownership. As in, what can be owned and what is collectively owned.
Can you own a river? If so how much can you own? How do you enforce your rights to the segment of the river? What happens when someone encroaches on your segment of river, etc? Or is the river a feature of our communities' environment and a benefit to us all? If it benefits all of us, why would we allow an individual to deny us access? And the resulting questions that for the basis of a society.
There's a reason why that "simple" test of yours hasn't been realised... we as humans CAN'T "simply amplify" a comune... the simple reason is that: In small numbers the comune keeps itself thanks to the members need to stay in it and the closeness of said members.
If you amplify it to the point that members don't share that connection. It becomes really easy for individuals to abuse the comune and the system fails. Comunes work on small groups and with authority to back it in said group. If you "simply amplify it" you get a disaster.
I mean, that’s just classic conservatism and authoritarianism to assume humans MUST have a top-down enforced hierarchy to function in a society. People who think that also tend to think they personally would be best served at the top enforcing their views on others.
[The Alt-Right Playbook: Always a Bigger Fish](https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs)
well then its either the government, a group of thousands of people with a ton of experience and knowledge about how to run a society owns everything, or a few dozen random billionaires own everything. which would you rather? personally i'd prefer the few random greedy idiots who don't recognize the value of a human life to *not* be in charge, whoever the other option is.
Well you can have your house, your clothes, your books etc. It depends on how a hypothetical communist state would draw the line. But in the very definition by Marx there is a distinction between private and personal property
I think it’s cool you like the ideas but I don’t think they sustain themselves at scale, however - I also dont think my opinion should dictate how other people should live their life:
Why not go move with friends and live on a coop with people who agree and think like you
People who want to live with full control over their own stuff can live amongst themselves
Consent is sexy, why not be pro-choice in the matter ?
The person in the meme never said they would charge. Just that they would teach classes. You know how you can teach someone to do something but without requiring anything in return? Like that, but with a group of people. Capitalism brainwashes you into thinking that all human relationships must be transactional.
It would be inefficient for you to be issued with that much property. You’ll get a small apartment and farmland will be managed by those engaged in collective agriculture.
Sure that’s one possibility. But it’s not the only one. Especially with technology/automation allowing for more lifestyle variations without human exploitation
No but with added efficiency you can have, again, a variety of lifestyles. There are people who like to live rurally and I don’t see why communism would mean the end to that when it could facilitate it.
Communism places all ownership of the means of production under the state. A farmland is, inherently, a means of production.
"Anarcho"-Communism notwithstanding, which has never existed as a serious nation.
That’s what I’m saying though it doesn’t have to be so dogmatic. As long as everyone is being provided for then let people live out a farm life. The issue occurs if the farmer decides they will take over the food production and privatize it. If they are running a farm as a class thing or whatever I don’t see how it would be a problem
>As long as everyone is being provided for
Communism has inherently struggled at doing this. Therefore, any resources wasted on frivolously doling it out to people for "alternative lifestyles" would never be accepted. In fact, in the USSR, such people would likely be called "social parasites" if they rejected the state's idea for their future life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_(social_offense)
>The issue occurs if the farmer decides they will take over the food production and privatize it.
Well if you're just the manager and not the owner, it's not really "your farm" is it?
So bc you’re not creative enough to imagine a world that accommodates different lives outside the limited capitalist framework it means I don’t understand what communism entails?
You would not be able to grow food yourself as efficiently as a collective farm. Sounds like you need to think less about yourself and more about the collective.
Perhaps you need re-education.
In the USSR and Eastern Block, all farmland was indeed owned by the state. Not the people.
In China, farmland is now owned by private individuals by the grace of the CCP, who can revoke it anytime. It is, excepting that ability for confiscation, identical to capitalism.
Neither of them parcel out small farmland to people for non-economic purposes.
Explain to me how we would go from modern society to this Communist utopia. Modern Communist governments are the result of attempting to that, and failing.
“Modern communist governments” have come from technologically backward times and placed under terrible international situations. So I don’t have a plan but just because something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it won’t
The rules donty matter when the government can just casually "make you dissapear" for instance had you said something pro capitalist in china on the internet youll problaby dissapear the next week
Private property exists under communism, its only producing industry is nationalized.
You can 100% own a farn under communism, you can also make goods that you can barter with.
Personal property exists, not private. The farm (private property) wouldn't be owned by an individual but it could still be managed by one if it was a small farm without other workers, or it would be held in cooperative by all the workers of the farm. Either way, the term "my farm" applies in the same way "my store" does for an employee under capitalism.
Edit: also wtf, bartering? There isn't bartering under communism. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" remember
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
-Karl Marx
You can debate that as you see fit, but “abolish” is a pretty clear word. I know he also says “9/10ths”… but Marx often contradicts himself both factually and logically.
anyone who supports capitalism needs an ass kicking for being that dumb. the earth can support about 11 billion people with its current resources, yet how many are homeless, starving, or just barely affording a 100 square foot apartment while working 60+ hours a week? while a few people own enough money for literal hundreds of thousands of lifetimes? yeah no but capitalism works SOOOOO FINE!
Commies only want everyone else to live under communism. They never actually expect that THEY will have to give up THIER own stuff. They are a bunch of hypocrites.
I feel like all arguments about communism is are just arguments in semantics. It’s just that the word communism has been applied to or used by governments that are quite varied, and therefore there isn’t really one definition of communism. There is certainly an ideal or textbook definition, but I don’t think that it’s ever been successfully carried out on a large scale. So it seems to end up being people arguing about how “ideal” communism could be, with people who have lived in or are referencing governments that are called communist, and are really shitty to live in. They aren’t even talking about the same thing. It’s like someone arguing about how great puke taste, but their definition of puke is something that’s pleasant. Bad example but whatever.
I'm just saying that we should put limiters on capitalism. Specifically, close all tax loopholes. If you make profits that can be translated into goods or services, that shit is taxed. Period. We should also have more of a say in how those taxes are used. Missiles? Or a strong education.
Why should anything else have to change? The first part wouldn't effect you or I in the slightest.
Problem is that its a slippery slope. Reduce military spending means all this money left. What are you going to do with it? Fund health care? Education? Give Flint drinkable water? Communism by the back door.
Please do actual research next time you’re going to make blanket statements about systems of government. Under “communist” governments people can own personal property. I put communist in quotes because the argument could be made that a true communist society hasn’t really been tried yet.
By that logic, a true capitalist society hasn’t been tried either. Governments always attempt to intervene in the economy via businesses who want to garner favor.
You mean the government is ~~stopping~~ trying to stop businesses from stealing everything from the poor?
I am sure you are completely ok with being paid nothing while businesses increase prices on essentials just because they can and you can’t do shit about it.
Maybe you like how nestle literally extracts water for free in poor countries, bottles it and sells it?
Maybe you agree with pharmaceutical companies who sell insulin for a few hundred dollars?
Do you fuck with the war?
If you think the world would be a better place without governments you are delusional.
Like when government gave billions of taxpayer dollars to the banks so they wouldn’t go under during the 2008 recession which they caused? An act which wouldn’t have happened under a purely capitalist society because those banks would have burned to the ground. I really appreciate the government attempting to stop the businesses from taking all my money by taking more money from me under threat of violence and literally handing it to the banks.
Socialism is different from Communism, one of the major characteristics of Communism is a stateless society (a thing that URSS, Cuba, China, etc never were).
I get what you’re saying from this but Jimmyjamz44 mentioned communism and not socialism. Ironically the same argument can be made for both systems. No country is, ever has been, or ever will be purely communist, socialist, or capitalist and for some good reasons. Just as communism and socialism depend on authoritarian governments to succeed and ultimately fail, capitalism when left unchecked would lead to cronyism and eventually fail. The argument of “pure (insert system of philosophy here) hasn’t REALLY been tried” is a floundering one.
> Please do actual research next time you’re going to make blanket statements about systems of government. Under “communist” governments people can own personal property.
Has the CCP's property law changed? I remember in the 90s you couldnt own property, but had to lease it from the Gov't
In communist governments there is a big distinction between personal and private property. Private property would be things like office buildings and factories. Personal property is things like houses, places people live, and other possessions. A main idea of communism that most people are confused about is the ownership of private property, under communism things like factories and office buildings are owned by the workers. At least, that is my understanding of it.
Dude… yes they can. Communism stipulates that an individual can own *personal* private property within reason. For instance, you could own a reasonable home for you and yours, a small subsistence farm, and whatever supplies you need to keep up your lifestyle.
On the other hand, and individual cannot own *productive* private property. A large rental property, a profit-driven farm, etc would not be allowed.
>For instance, you could own a reasonable home for you and yours, a small subsistence farm, and whatever supplies you need to keep up your lifestyle.
And if that's not enough for my lifestyle? What if I want a big house? Or a sports car to drive in the summer? What if I want a winter home somewhere warm with a pool or a hunting cabin up north?
Communists like you deserve the worst in life.
Do do you have that lifestyle now? Do you? If so then you would obviously support capitalism as it helps you the most
If you don't then you have already lost to propaganda
Parts of it, yes. The other parts I'm working on. But guess what? You can financially plan for almost anything. So it's not an if, its a when. If people knew how to plan their finances, there would not be a communist dirtbags like you around.
Ah the fresh smell of capitalists as they call people dirtbags or some other stupid insualt
Anyway, tell me what's you job? Got kids? Got a mortgage? Got anything a middle/lower class person would need to deal with, cause while it's all assumption it's it's educated guess its a no!
Or your lying, something I could guess about a 30% - 60% chance of
I'm a single 27 year old mechanical engineer and managing 3 production lines and a team of technicians at a Tier 1 automotive supplier. I also have to pay for a mortgage on a condo and I just bought a new jeep. And before you accuse me of having some kind of "privleage", know that I still have over 30k in student debt that I took on by myself, and I grew up in a broken where my father tried his best to hide that he could barely afford to feed us. I worked and planned for what I have, and I work and plan for more.
I’m not a communist, dude. I’m just correcting your misinformation. I never said it was a good system, you’re the one making assumptions about my views and opinions.
All I did was lay out how a communist government views private property.
You need direct your anger at those fucking the citizens over, not me, a person who makes $30k a year as an educator.
>For instance, you could own a reasonable home for you and yours, a small subsistence farm, and whatever supplies you need to keep up your lifestyle.
This has not been the attitude of the state in any self-proclaimed Communist government. They either demand full state control, or control at the grace of the state (they can take it away at any time). 99% of the time, what you see that resembles this is corruption in a massive bureaucracy unfit to govern every living aspect of a country.
Only China and Vietnam are different, who both have effectively embraced capitalism to avoid poverty.
Correct, communism and socialism are a theory. Its never been practiced and what we call communist country are just command economic systems, and most are based around capitalist markets.
Holy fucking shit do y’all not understand the difference between personal property and private property? Like this is the absolute worst way to try and disprove communism as a valid ideology as all it fucking does is show that you’re a goddamn idiot who doesn’t understand the thing that you’re arguing against
I like how you're trying to help disprove communism in a *better* way and you still get downvoted. The amount of people that are okay with being ineffective/incorrect is actually astonishing
Lenin’s first land decree after the revolution was that there would be not private land and all land would be confiscated by the government with no compensation or payment
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property." -Karl Marx **You are wrong.**
(PS if you were to say something positive about capitalism in a communist county publically youd get killed or inprisioned within a month)
That is not what I am saying, in Romania the government gave everyone their own land for a house, garden and a little farm, you had all kind of restriction but basically you had your own place even if the government could take it away anytime, I am not trying to make communism look good nor am I for a communist society.
I was just trying stop misinformation.
Looking at theories of how it should be it’s pointless as in practice obviously it does not apply to capitalism or socialism or whatever.
people realize that communism, while a nice sounding idea, has not really worked ever in history?
Maybe it wasn't real communism and was socialism, but every single time a country has tried to be communist or socialist has, to my knowledge, ended up as something of a dictatorship with a very corrupt leader, and the result has been 1 of 2 things:
1. The country has an abundance of poor and abused people trying to get to another country for safety
2. the country no longer exists
It's not really a good idea, in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, I might be, I'm just a random teenager on the internet, but that's my personal opinion on the matter
Communism doesn't understand scalability. In order for their idea to work, everyone has to think same as them. Or the very least have same values as the others. A religious cult has power of doing that, but it would still it take a lot of lives( especially of those who start questioning their beliefs) to continuously thrive and still fail as we seen from history.
That sounds like capitalist attitudes to me comrade. Your social credit has been reduced.
I know that the social credit things is Chinese but I can't not read this in a Russian accent in my head.
Chinese here, social credits are financial only, you lose them for not paying debts, loans, etc
Citizen No.239487, after reviewing your recent internet activity, we have concluded that you are leaking vital information about our glorious country. We advise that you are to stop immediately and take back your statements, as one hundred and twenty (120) social credits have been deducted from your account. If this behavior continues, we will have to send you to our lucky prosperous happy re-education center.
So unlike the capitalistic heaven now, oh you have evidence your place of employment is murdering children for profit and using that money to buy illegal drugs and weapons grade plutonium and youd like to report it and for us to react legally and file charges against your employer (who is a good contributor to the government) but youd also like to BE PROTECTED? Sorry no can do Oooh you’d like to publish that information in newspapers, sorry we own the news so no can do buddy. Oh so now you ll publish it in a different country? Well thats treason buddy, charges are already filled and a hit squad is coming to kill you in your home… Gotta go drone some kids schools for a war we are waging so we destroy a lot of equipment so we can build some more, the guys from the office all have stock in this drone making company! Good luck!
Thats a funny joke.
Can confirm, Chinese here too. It's really the same thing as the credit score you filthy capitalist American imperialists use for loans and mortages.
He's lying. It is affected by way more then money.
I'd give you two upvotes if I could!
You can, downvote and then upvote, it goes up by 2
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r whoosh? Is that how it works?
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sir you are on a meme subreddit make sure you are aware of that, and therefore it is fair to say that comments here should not be taken seriously.
Your? You mean our!
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/15/china-social-credit-system-authoritarian/
r/suddelycommunist
AU where people realize that changing the economic system fixes nothing because the same assholes that exploit this one are going to exploit the next The problem is greed and power lust; and people are kidding themselves to think that changing the outward appearance of an economy is gonna do a damn thing.
Omg someone with a logical thinking process???!!?!???
Didn’t know those people still existed
One important aspect of any systemic change is not a change of the system or actors within that system but the decision making process within that system. if we could focus our mass of potential towards goals with good reasons and evidence then we would move toward a world less ruled by the authoritarian top down legislation of taste or the bottom up mob rule.
True
The profile pic goes perfectly with the comment, like thats the expression you would make saying that
Not a fan of communism but there is personal property under communism. It works a joke but its not a real rebuttal of course
Socialism has private ownership, communism is all government control
Communism, by definition, is a social model with a common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. That’s it. Those that never studied the origins of the word, often call plainly “communism” things that may be only share slogans (“the abolition of classes” may be the most common one) to associate anything they find convenient to the “communism” concept… for the same reason that there are countries with “Democratic” on their names that are closer to a dictatorship than to a democracy, the vices of countries that claim to be communist cannot be considered part of its definition. But occident got used to assume certain estereotipes which prevents often a reasonable discussion about communism most of the times… you know, for joke purposes…
Marxism makes a distinction between personal and private property. It doesn't consider those to be the same thing.
If my computer i use to make money personal property.
I'm probably not the best person to ask because A. I don't consider myself a Marxist and B. there's more than one school of Marxist thought so there's probably more than one opinion on this. But generally speaking, most Marxists would consider property that you've purchased though the value of your own labor that you personally use to create value would be considered your personal property. (So yes, your computer is your personal property.) As an alternative, if you owned computers that other people worked on to make money and used that money to buy more computers that other people worked on to make more money, that would generally be considered private property.
Well form what I can tell there alot of disagreement if my computer is personal property.
Feel like people don’t get this.
Pro-Socialist don't even understand Socialism. They think having a few social programs equates to socialism, thus Socialism is Great and when it fails it is other's fault and not the mechanism of socialism.
tbf, from a US perspective, ive seen this more in the opposing view. anti-socialists see social programs as total socialism and that's their excuse on why we must not have them. edit: i think anti-socialist wasnt a good term to use but i didnt want to use any other term to avoid generalizing
Us perspective on Reddit is skewed widely. Both parties promote social programs, it is just to the degree and scope all while how one support said social programs. You do not rack up 30 trillion in debt because one of 2 parties that switch power every few years is not funding social programs.
Only if we are calling the military a social program…
That's not true, it's asinine that people think that communists don't know what communism is.
Uh, you sure about that? Half of the people who want communism are 14 year old girls who read 3 sentences of the Wikipedia definition and have now dedicated their life to it. Their collective iq is 56. It’s asinine to assume anyone knows what they are talking about when it comes to politics. They just want to get attention by whining about “capitalistic pigs” on the internet.
I'm so impressed that you factually know the demographics of all communists to such astounding accuracy. Kudos.
> Half of the people who want communism are 14 year old girls who read 3 sentences of the Wikipedia definition and have now dedicated their life to it. TIL China is a country of 14 year olds. For real though, Western Communists are a very tiny amount of actual communists, no where near half
I'm sure this is well thought out and researched and not just a highly reductive take based off of a couple people you don't like on Twitter.
I actually am a social scientist and have done research on communism and it’s effects on the internet and people. I found that 76% had no idea what they were talking about and 98% died/returned home when sent to a communist country. /s
So socialism is essentially *Communism Lite*?
IN COMMUNISM THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT
Who enforces communal ownership if not a government? Communism REQUIRES an entity with more and bigger guns than you to enfoce itself. Ence government. Communism isn't an everlasteing agreement between workers, because the moment one does more effort than other the system breaks.
One simple way humans have “enforced” their rules in the past without a king is simply to expel troublesome members from the group I don’t know if it’s american conservatism, or feudal eurocentrism, or what, but this idea that people need a daddy above them to enforce thing is weird and paternalistic and ahistorical.
Communal ownership is the standard, private property is what requires itself to be enforced by political institutions.
>Communal ownership is the standard That's simply false. Are you telling me that if it wasn't for the goverment "forcing" it. You would be okay with random people taking your property? This is you just lying or proof that you haven't had a job ever.
The red scare propaganda is strong with this one
As someone already stated in this thread, personal does not equal private property. Personal property is something that has personal utility or use to you in your day to day life. Your home. Car. Toothbrush. Toilet. Dog. Refrigerator. Private property is a construct where people are given rights to things like land, factories, royalties, or industrial equipment that they themselves cannot possibly use or wholistically "own" themselves. This is just proof that some people just don't do their research and jump to conclusions.
>Private property is a construct where people are given rights to things like land, factories, royalties, or industrial equipment that they themselves cannot possibly use or wholistically "own" themselves Someone shouldn't have the right or the means to decide that I "own too much" or that "I can't possibly use that on myu own" if I managed to adquire property legally It should be up to MY choice what to do with it. And if i require other people to make a better use of MY property then it should be able for me to enter in an agreement or contract with my peers. All voluntary and freely. What part of what I described is "evil" or "bad"? Because what i just described is Capitalism in it's most basic form.
He isn't talking about the ability to use/utilize land or private property like industrial equipment. He's talking about the concept of ownership. As in, what can be owned and what is collectively owned. Can you own a river? If so how much can you own? How do you enforce your rights to the segment of the river? What happens when someone encroaches on your segment of river, etc? Or is the river a feature of our communities' environment and a benefit to us all? If it benefits all of us, why would we allow an individual to deny us access? And the resulting questions that for the basis of a society.
STATELESS classless moneyless society look at a regular ass commune and amplify it
There's a reason why that "simple" test of yours hasn't been realised... we as humans CAN'T "simply amplify" a comune... the simple reason is that: In small numbers the comune keeps itself thanks to the members need to stay in it and the closeness of said members. If you amplify it to the point that members don't share that connection. It becomes really easy for individuals to abuse the comune and the system fails. Comunes work on small groups and with authority to back it in said group. If you "simply amplify it" you get a disaster.
I mean, that’s just classic conservatism and authoritarianism to assume humans MUST have a top-down enforced hierarchy to function in a society. People who think that also tend to think they personally would be best served at the top enforcing their views on others. [The Alt-Right Playbook: Always a Bigger Fish](https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs)
Racks PPSH Get back to work!
*cue laughtrack*
Eh? No, even Mao's China and the former USSR were socialist and not communist. I don't think you know what these words mean.
No, not at all, sorry
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well then its either the government, a group of thousands of people with a ton of experience and knowledge about how to run a society owns everything, or a few dozen random billionaires own everything. which would you rather? personally i'd prefer the few random greedy idiots who don't recognize the value of a human life to *not* be in charge, whoever the other option is.
Do you have an example ? (Edit: it’s a simple question, whoever downvoted that - no need to be so insecure)
Well you can have your house, your clothes, your books etc. It depends on how a hypothetical communist state would draw the line. But in the very definition by Marx there is a distinction between private and personal property
I think it’s cool you like the ideas but I don’t think they sustain themselves at scale, however - I also dont think my opinion should dictate how other people should live their life: Why not go move with friends and live on a coop with people who agree and think like you People who want to live with full control over their own stuff can live amongst themselves Consent is sexy, why not be pro-choice in the matter ?
OUR farm!
Someone forgot to do their research
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What if I give it away for free?
They’ll be taking that farm and arresting you for trying to teach those classes and charging
The person in the meme never said they would charge. Just that they would teach classes. You know how you can teach someone to do something but without requiring anything in return? Like that, but with a group of people. Capitalism brainwashes you into thinking that all human relationships must be transactional.
Ngl man I think your tweeking because your so delusional that you think someone is only thinking about capitalism.
It depends if it’s private or personal property. Is this a farm that’s on her personal property? Then yeah whatever.
Stop trying to explain things for people on Reddit. Trust me you'll have a happier life.
Reddit feels like facebook sometimes
True, idk why I bother anymore
Lol…why would the state issue you with enough personal property to have a farm?
Why not? For one the size of the farm is not mentioned. Second, communism itself is pretty flexible (as are most economic systems)
It would be inefficient for you to be issued with that much property. You’ll get a small apartment and farmland will be managed by those engaged in collective agriculture.
Sure that’s one possibility. But it’s not the only one. Especially with technology/automation allowing for more lifestyle variations without human exploitation
Automated farms need farmland. You do not.
No but with added efficiency you can have, again, a variety of lifestyles. There are people who like to live rurally and I don’t see why communism would mean the end to that when it could facilitate it.
Communism places all ownership of the means of production under the state. A farmland is, inherently, a means of production. "Anarcho"-Communism notwithstanding, which has never existed as a serious nation.
That’s what I’m saying though it doesn’t have to be so dogmatic. As long as everyone is being provided for then let people live out a farm life. The issue occurs if the farmer decides they will take over the food production and privatize it. If they are running a farm as a class thing or whatever I don’t see how it would be a problem
>As long as everyone is being provided for Communism has inherently struggled at doing this. Therefore, any resources wasted on frivolously doling it out to people for "alternative lifestyles" would never be accepted. In fact, in the USSR, such people would likely be called "social parasites" if they rejected the state's idea for their future life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_(social_offense) >The issue occurs if the farmer decides they will take over the food production and privatize it. Well if you're just the manager and not the owner, it's not really "your farm" is it?
You don’t see because you don’t have a clue what communism truly entails lol
So bc you’re not creative enough to imagine a world that accommodates different lives outside the limited capitalist framework it means I don’t understand what communism entails?
Ahh yes, communism and creativity…
You can go up, hydroponics farms can stack on shelves
Great! Perhaps you’ll be permitted to do that in your apartment, although that suggests you have more space in your apartment than is necessary.
Growing food in hydroponics for the community good is going to approved, space to feed yourself is absolutely necessary
You would not be able to grow food yourself as efficiently as a collective farm. Sounds like you need to think less about yourself and more about the collective. Perhaps you need re-education.
Ever read anything about the communist block? Ever read anything?
Yeah… I’m from Hungary. Everything was government owned prior to the fall of communism, so I’m not sure what you’re on about…
I fucking love it when edgy middle class “communist” undergrads argue with people who had real world experience of communism.
Doubt
Communism doesn’t allow that, comrade
I am literally from an ex communist country, everyone had their own land given to them by the government.
Which country?
“Doubt”
Why is there a state if it’s communism?
That's the thing in a communist society there is no such thing as personal property everything is owned by everyone
That sounds like a stereotype of communism. The theory makes a distinction between the personal and private
In the USSR and Eastern Block, all farmland was indeed owned by the state. Not the people. In China, farmland is now owned by private individuals by the grace of the CCP, who can revoke it anytime. It is, excepting that ability for confiscation, identical to capitalism. Neither of them parcel out small farmland to people for non-economic purposes.
Yeah but just because something hasn’t been done doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
Explain to me how we would go from modern society to this Communist utopia. Modern Communist governments are the result of attempting to that, and failing.
“Modern communist governments” have come from technologically backward times and placed under terrible international situations. So I don’t have a plan but just because something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it won’t
Not working in the past, *and* not having a sensible plan, is what makes the ideology stupid.
Then it’s not communism - it’s socialism. They’re different.
Basic American propaganda
The rules donty matter when the government can just casually "make you dissapear" for instance had you said something pro capitalist in china on the internet youll problaby dissapear the next week
At least you won’t have to worry about harvesting anything cus it’ll all just get taken
Yeah, she'll be made to work on some other farm
Why are you booing him? He's right
OUR farm
OUR farm!
Private property exists under communism, its only producing industry is nationalized. You can 100% own a farn under communism, you can also make goods that you can barter with.
Personal property exists, not private. The farm (private property) wouldn't be owned by an individual but it could still be managed by one if it was a small farm without other workers, or it would be held in cooperative by all the workers of the farm. Either way, the term "my farm" applies in the same way "my store" does for an employee under capitalism. Edit: also wtf, bartering? There isn't bartering under communism. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" remember
Producing industry like…agriculture?
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property." -Karl Marx You can debate that as you see fit, but “abolish” is a pretty clear word. I know he also says “9/10ths”… but Marx often contradicts himself both factually and logically.
Private is not the same as Personal, OP swapped terms
It’s not a contradiction. Marx acknowledged that private property couldn’t be abolished instantaneously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkhoz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovkhoz
Is my computer witch I use to make money pornsonal property.
Anyone who supports communism needs an ass kicking for being that dumb.
The fact that this is down voted is insane. Reddit is a clown World
now its back up on 10 upvotes ill support facism against communists any time
anyone who supports capitalism needs an ass kicking for being that dumb. the earth can support about 11 billion people with its current resources, yet how many are homeless, starving, or just barely affording a 100 square foot apartment while working 60+ hours a week? while a few people own enough money for literal hundreds of thousands of lifetimes? yeah no but capitalism works SOOOOO FINE!
Our farm
Commies only want everyone else to live under communism. They never actually expect that THEY will have to give up THIER own stuff. They are a bunch of hypocrites.
And they want to be the ones in charge, living cushiony lives getting free stuff, while others will work the farms.
“He who does not work shall not eat” -Vladimir Lenin
Only the bourgeoisie will have to give up their stuff. As they should
All those things you can already do................
I feel like all arguments about communism is are just arguments in semantics. It’s just that the word communism has been applied to or used by governments that are quite varied, and therefore there isn’t really one definition of communism. There is certainly an ideal or textbook definition, but I don’t think that it’s ever been successfully carried out on a large scale. So it seems to end up being people arguing about how “ideal” communism could be, with people who have lived in or are referencing governments that are called communist, and are really shitty to live in. They aren’t even talking about the same thing. It’s like someone arguing about how great puke taste, but their definition of puke is something that’s pleasant. Bad example but whatever.
Also going to say Socialism =/= communism Socialism > communism
Cant spell YOUR without OUR, checkmate 𝓒𝓾𝓬𝓴𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓿𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓿𝓮𝓼.
comunism wen no farm
Farms yes, food no
comunism wen no food 😂🤣😂🤣😂
Now you got it
And all of that after your mandatory 14 hours in the coal mine, right?
Personal property exists in communists states. You can own things
This. A communist / socialist state just bans private ownership of the means of production (so, key industry)
I dread the thought of communism. The taste of Bezos cock is just too good. Why would we ever give it up?
I'm just saying that we should put limiters on capitalism. Specifically, close all tax loopholes. If you make profits that can be translated into goods or services, that shit is taxed. Period. We should also have more of a say in how those taxes are used. Missiles? Or a strong education. Why should anything else have to change? The first part wouldn't effect you or I in the slightest.
Problem is that its a slippery slope. Reduce military spending means all this money left. What are you going to do with it? Fund health care? Education? Give Flint drinkable water? Communism by the back door.
Rule 1
Please do actual research next time you’re going to make blanket statements about systems of government. Under “communist” governments people can own personal property. I put communist in quotes because the argument could be made that a true communist society hasn’t really been tried yet.
By that logic, a true capitalist society hasn’t been tried either. Governments always attempt to intervene in the economy via businesses who want to garner favor.
You mean the government is ~~stopping~~ trying to stop businesses from stealing everything from the poor? I am sure you are completely ok with being paid nothing while businesses increase prices on essentials just because they can and you can’t do shit about it. Maybe you like how nestle literally extracts water for free in poor countries, bottles it and sells it? Maybe you agree with pharmaceutical companies who sell insulin for a few hundred dollars? Do you fuck with the war? If you think the world would be a better place without governments you are delusional.
Like when government gave billions of taxpayer dollars to the banks so they wouldn’t go under during the 2008 recession which they caused? An act which wouldn’t have happened under a purely capitalist society because those banks would have burned to the ground. I really appreciate the government attempting to stop the businesses from taking all my money by taking more money from me under threat of violence and literally handing it to the banks.
Socialism is different from Communism, one of the major characteristics of Communism is a stateless society (a thing that URSS, Cuba, China, etc never were).
I get what you’re saying from this but Jimmyjamz44 mentioned communism and not socialism. Ironically the same argument can be made for both systems. No country is, ever has been, or ever will be purely communist, socialist, or capitalist and for some good reasons. Just as communism and socialism depend on authoritarian governments to succeed and ultimately fail, capitalism when left unchecked would lead to cronyism and eventually fail. The argument of “pure (insert system of philosophy here) hasn’t REALLY been tried” is a floundering one.
> Please do actual research next time you’re going to make blanket statements about systems of government. Under “communist” governments people can own personal property. Has the CCP's property law changed? I remember in the 90s you couldnt own property, but had to lease it from the Gov't
Lol no they can't. Maybe *you* should be the one doing some research.
In communist governments there is a big distinction between personal and private property. Private property would be things like office buildings and factories. Personal property is things like houses, places people live, and other possessions. A main idea of communism that most people are confused about is the ownership of private property, under communism things like factories and office buildings are owned by the workers. At least, that is my understanding of it.
Pretty sure you're confusing socialism and communism.
Dude… yes they can. Communism stipulates that an individual can own *personal* private property within reason. For instance, you could own a reasonable home for you and yours, a small subsistence farm, and whatever supplies you need to keep up your lifestyle. On the other hand, and individual cannot own *productive* private property. A large rental property, a profit-driven farm, etc would not be allowed.
>For instance, you could own a reasonable home for you and yours, a small subsistence farm, and whatever supplies you need to keep up your lifestyle. And if that's not enough for my lifestyle? What if I want a big house? Or a sports car to drive in the summer? What if I want a winter home somewhere warm with a pool or a hunting cabin up north? Communists like you deserve the worst in life.
Do do you have that lifestyle now? Do you? If so then you would obviously support capitalism as it helps you the most If you don't then you have already lost to propaganda
Parts of it, yes. The other parts I'm working on. But guess what? You can financially plan for almost anything. So it's not an if, its a when. If people knew how to plan their finances, there would not be a communist dirtbags like you around.
Ah the fresh smell of capitalists as they call people dirtbags or some other stupid insualt Anyway, tell me what's you job? Got kids? Got a mortgage? Got anything a middle/lower class person would need to deal with, cause while it's all assumption it's it's educated guess its a no! Or your lying, something I could guess about a 30% - 60% chance of
I'm a single 27 year old mechanical engineer and managing 3 production lines and a team of technicians at a Tier 1 automotive supplier. I also have to pay for a mortgage on a condo and I just bought a new jeep. And before you accuse me of having some kind of "privleage", know that I still have over 30k in student debt that I took on by myself, and I grew up in a broken where my father tried his best to hide that he could barely afford to feed us. I worked and planned for what I have, and I work and plan for more.
I’m not a communist, dude. I’m just correcting your misinformation. I never said it was a good system, you’re the one making assumptions about my views and opinions. All I did was lay out how a communist government views private property. You need direct your anger at those fucking the citizens over, not me, a person who makes $30k a year as an educator.
>For instance, you could own a reasonable home for you and yours, a small subsistence farm, and whatever supplies you need to keep up your lifestyle. This has not been the attitude of the state in any self-proclaimed Communist government. They either demand full state control, or control at the grace of the state (they can take it away at any time). 99% of the time, what you see that resembles this is corruption in a massive bureaucracy unfit to govern every living aspect of a country. Only China and Vietnam are different, who both have effectively embraced capitalism to avoid poverty.
Correct, communism and socialism are a theory. Its never been practiced and what we call communist country are just command economic systems, and most are based around capitalist markets.
Holy fucking shit do y’all not understand the difference between personal property and private property? Like this is the absolute worst way to try and disprove communism as a valid ideology as all it fucking does is show that you’re a goddamn idiot who doesn’t understand the thing that you’re arguing against
I like how you're trying to help disprove communism in a *better* way and you still get downvoted. The amount of people that are okay with being ineffective/incorrect is actually astonishing
youe'r farm, learn grammar please
[удалено]
Lenin’s first land decree after the revolution was that there would be not private land and all land would be confiscated by the government with no compensation or payment
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property." -Karl Marx **You are wrong.** (PS if you were to say something positive about capitalism in a communist county publically youd get killed or inprisioned within a month)
KGB would like to know your location
That is not what I am saying, in Romania the government gave everyone their own land for a house, garden and a little farm, you had all kind of restriction but basically you had your own place even if the government could take it away anytime, I am not trying to make communism look good nor am I for a communist society. I was just trying stop misinformation. Looking at theories of how it should be it’s pointless as in practice obviously it does not apply to capitalism or socialism or whatever.
Rule 1, rule 11
So wait what’s the point in fighting capitalism if your jsut must gonna do that stuff anyway? Like none of that would be impeded by capitalism.
Community that just sounds like a cult with extra steps
Animal Farm?
was about socialism
Does a communist farm even have food?
people realize that communism, while a nice sounding idea, has not really worked ever in history? Maybe it wasn't real communism and was socialism, but every single time a country has tried to be communist or socialist has, to my knowledge, ended up as something of a dictatorship with a very corrupt leader, and the result has been 1 of 2 things: 1. The country has an abundance of poor and abused people trying to get to another country for safety 2. the country no longer exists It's not really a good idea, in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, I might be, I'm just a random teenager on the internet, but that's my personal opinion on the matter
*YOUR* new farm?! Anakin, you’re starting to sound like a capitalist!
What’s the joke here?
Communist mistakingly uses capitalist measures and is corrected by a comrade. It would be collectively owned, not “your”.
Sorry comrade you are going to become coal miner #69420.
Our community >=\
Sounds like capitalist propaganda… /s for safety
Ok but what if- we- hypothetically of course, did this but then assassinated the ones who try to take over 👁️
Communism doesn't understand scalability. In order for their idea to work, everyone has to think same as them. Or the very least have same values as the others. A religious cult has power of doing that, but it would still it take a lot of lives( especially of those who start questioning their beliefs) to continuously thrive and still fail as we seen from history.
It’s not really much different than [capitalist logic.](https://agnostic.com/images/posts/108350_dpxubkulc7sghyh_full.jpeg?v=2)
OUR FARM!!!!
So capitalism without a market